highaltitude.log.20090328

[00:00] <Tigga> he does say awesome things
[00:00] <edmoore> Laurenceb: what fixes have you made?
[00:00] <Laurenceb> I discovered some spars were the wrong lenght, so there was a load of stress in the foam enclosure
[00:01] <Tigga> edmoore - I had a quick fiddle with our prediction website. A draft: http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/predict/index_jeremy.php
[00:01] <Laurenceb> fixed that, and brought the COG forward by about 15mm, as L/D was ~3 and it should be a bit higher
[00:01] <Tigga> just spotted that the form dosn't remember values
[00:01] <Tigga> oops
[00:01] <edmoore> the launch time cells are a bit broken for me, but i like the concept
[00:02] <Laurenceb> then firmware I removed the glitchy L/D calculation filter and used flight data, added an integrated yaw rate term, fixed some bugs in sanity checks, changed the wind estimation code to work well using matlab sims with flight data
[00:03] <Laurenceb> erm... there was a bug in the code to send packets to the lassen, probably causing it to screw up, and I made the data offload a bit easier to use
[00:03] <Laurenceb> thast about it :P
[00:04] <shellevil> Still no concrete reason for the radio?
[00:04] <Laurenceb> fraid not
[00:04] <Laurenceb> but yeah the other thing I added was an automatic radio reset every minute or so
[00:05] <edmoore> 4-day errors for me too
[00:05] <edmoore> but I see what you're getting at
[00:05] <Laurenceb> it only takes ~15ms and is timed to happen when it wont cause packet loss
[00:06] <Tigga> I've only tested it at my laptop screen res so far...
[00:06] <Tigga> 4-day is glitchy. It's the same thing as rob had when you put in -789 lat... but is slightly more official
[00:07] <shellevil> umm 'range from launch site' 'range from landing site' ?
[00:08] <shellevil> are these the range of hte burst?
[00:08] <edmoore> cursor
[00:08] <shellevil> oh
[00:09] <shellevil> the landing bull is new isn't it?
[00:09] <Tigga> somebody did that last week I think
[00:10] <edmoore> henry did
[00:10] <edmoore> 5/10/15km
[00:10] <edmoore> just making a doobry to replace that bull with 1,2,3-sigma ellipses for when there's a monte-carlo option
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[00:11] <edmoore> hi trialex
[00:11] <shellevil> neat
[00:12] <Laurenceb> how does the monte carlo work?
[00:12] <Laurenceb> different launch spots? perturbations?
[00:12] <edmoore> there'll be some more paramaters
[00:12] <edmoore> and you can tick box the distribution, mean and variance for each aparam
[00:12] <edmoore> and the number of cases
[00:12] <edmoore> nothing too fancy
[00:13] <Laurenceb> what does the 4 day do?
[00:13] <Laurenceb> check if it lands in a polygon?
[00:13] <Tigga> that only works with kml output.... and doesn't take the inputs from the page yet
[00:13] <edmoore> will have to have a chat about who can run MC's though! I've brought up a linux box that can do the crunching for them
[00:15] <Laurenceb> I'd try and do it with c
[00:15] <Tigga> how many iterations would you expect for them edmoore?
[00:15] <edmoore> Laurenceb: it's in cpp already
[00:15] <Laurenceb> ah ok
[00:15] <Laurenceb> the predictor is called from php?
[00:15] <edmoore> Tigga: no idea yet. Will see how long it takes to do 100/500/1000 and have a guess
[00:16] <Tigga> fair enough!
[00:16] <edmoore> I don't yet know the best way of doing it. Basically, we can have our own 'offline' tools with more control and power, but it would be cool if we could give them to everyone
[00:16] <edmoore> maybe a password to access the more advanced functionality
[00:17] <shellevil> nice++
[00:17] <Tigga> online is very useful for us as well though as anybody can quickly poke it
[00:17] <Laurenceb> you could add a glider function, landing distance from target/apogee height
[00:17] <edmoore> Tigga: exactly
[00:17] <edmoore> it's a universal and easy interface
[00:17] <edmoore> Laurenceb: YOU could :p
[00:17] <Laurenceb> or detter, plot landing dist from target /apogee hight vs apogee height
[00:17] <shellevil> also, maybe you'd get a feeling for what works.
[00:17] <Laurenceb> find the optimal cutdown altitude
[00:18] <edmoore> it will need to be intergrated with the online tracker at some point too
[00:18] <Laurenceb> :P
[00:18] <shellevil> forex, could be that 1000 runs never does much that 100 doesn't
[00:18] <edmoore> for the dynamic landing prediction
[00:18] <edmoore> that might involve switching to one common, integrated interface
[00:18] <edmoore> shellevil: exactly. It ain't rocket science and there aren't that many paramaters
[00:18] <shellevil> dynamic landing prediction is just too cool.
[00:19] <edmoore> it's been wonderful to us
[00:19] <edmoore> seeing the teddies pass right over head under parachute
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[00:21] <Laurenceb> you want to try adding random fluctuations to the wind vector at each point
[00:22] <Laurenceb> then sending an ensamble of balloons through the model
[00:22] <edmoore> that just gets too complicated
[00:22] <Laurenceb> not really
[00:22] <edmoore> easier to add some kind of varience vector to an entire dataset
[00:23] <Laurenceb> hmmm
[00:23] <shellevil> np: Nena - 99 red balloons.
[00:23] <edmoore> it's unlikely that the winds at 100m will be 3m/s faster towards the east, but at 200m will be 2m/s faster to the south-west, and at 300m be 1m/s slower to the north
[00:23] <edmoore> forex
[00:24] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:24] <Laurenceb> so youd need maybe 1000 runs
[00:24] <Laurenceb> how would variance vectors work?
[00:24] <edmoore> it's more likely that they'd be generally faster than expected or generally slower than expected or generally more northerly than expected
[00:25] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:25] <edmoore> sloopy wording. you have some varience on the wind, you sample that distribution to produce a vector
[00:25] <edmoore> sloppy wording* from me
[00:25] <Laurenceb> right
[00:25] <edmoore> so you could say the entire dataset is transformed by increasing in magnitude by 1.04 or something
[00:25] <shellevil> or earlier or later than expected
[00:26] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:26] <edmoore> + some direction transform. It probably needs more thought that I've given it
[00:26] <edmoore> than*
[00:26] <edmoore> shellevil: yeah
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[00:26] <Laurenceb> hmm maybe compare predictions with actual data
[00:26] <Laurenceb> if you get raw weather station data and compare
[00:27] <Tigga> comparing the forcase to the actual data?
[00:27] <Laurenceb> see what error techniques give the best results
[00:27] <Laurenceb> yes
[00:27] <edmoore> the balloon is a good source of data
[00:27] <Tigga> I'm fairly sure that we're not going to be able to make forcasting more accurate...
[00:27] <Laurenceb> e.g. is it later/earlier /stronger/ combination of those
[00:27] <edmoore> but adding in more sources adds a lot of headache to the system design
[00:27] <Tigga> they must do that already and take inot account when forecasting
[00:27] <Laurenceb> no
[00:27] <Laurenceb> not adding them
[00:27] <Laurenceb> using them to anilise errors in model data
[00:28] <Laurenceb> sorry spelling
[00:28] <edmoore> the most useful thing would be something that did that in real time
[00:28] <Laurenceb> so you see what the errors in weather models look like
[00:28] <Laurenceb> but just an idea of the size of the errors would help
[00:28] <edmoore> so the current dynamic predictor just iteratively superposes simulations from the model ontop of real-time balloon positions
[00:28] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:29] <shellevil> compare nows prediction of tommorrow with the previous datasets prediction of tomorrow
[00:29] <Laurenceb> and calculates drag coefficient?
[00:29] <Tigga> tbh - the model seems pretty good. It would be nice to be able to get more data quicker, as well as being able to see what effects errors will have, but the base model seems sound
[00:29] <edmoore> it would be nice if it was intelligent enough to realise that actually things are clearly more northerly than the forcasts says, and so adjust the estimate
[00:29] <edmoore> it needs to be as good as possible for potential future work
[00:30] <edmoore> so that at cut-down you can tell as accurately as possible where it's going to land
[00:30] <edmoore> so the faster it converges to the actual landing spot, the better
[00:30] <Tigga> so we can do cutdowns as safely as possible - makes sense
[00:30] <Laurenceb> or use a parafoil
[00:30] <edmoore> no
[00:30] <Laurenceb> whats wrong with parafoils?
[00:31] <edmoore> how about if you want to test a parachute
[00:31] <Laurenceb> guess so
[00:31] <Laurenceb> I'm still planning on building one
[00:31] <edmoore> you want to know where it'll land if the chute doesn't deploy, and where it'll land if it does
[00:32] <Laurenceb> yeah - in fact you need landing spot pred to work out if it can reach the target
[00:32] <edmoore> the design pattern is pretty much there in terms of interfacing an entire dynamic model sim to the grib shizzle
[00:33] <edmoore> but it's an exercise for the reader
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[00:34] <edmoore> Laurenceb: a 6DOF parafoil sim would be a fun project
[00:34] <edmoore> (for you)
[00:34] <Laurenceb> haha
[00:34] <Laurenceb> I'm not getting involved in parafoil sims
[00:34] <edmoore> at work over the summer, they had 21DOF models for parafoils
[00:35] <Laurenceb> just the thought... arggg
[00:35] <Laurenceb> so horrendiously nonlinear
[00:35] <Laurenceb> I've seen some finite element models that looked good
[00:35] <Laurenceb> but you could just .... build it
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[00:37] <edmoore> not if you're going to mars :p
[00:37] <Laurenceb> erm...
[00:37] <Laurenceb> oh these were sims for mars.. cool
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[00:40] <shellevil> edm: well - a few km up, and mars are pretty similar
[00:40] <shellevil> barring the whole molecular weight thing
[00:40] <shellevil> and gravity
[00:41] <edmoore> and parafoils don't work in either place
[00:42] <shellevil> why not?
[00:44] <edmoore> not enough mass if air for the parafoil to accelerate
[00:45] <edmoore> so there are some resultant torques which the rigging obviously can't provide any reaction against
[00:45] <edmoore> and the whole thing tends to collapse and wrap itself around the payload
[00:52] <Laurenceb> surely if its already moving...
[00:52] <Laurenceb> or it predeployed off a balloon
[00:52] <edmoore> it won't achieve stable flight
[00:52] <edmoore> can almost guarantee it
[00:53] <Laurenceb> hmm
[00:53] <Laurenceb> interesting
[00:58] <edmoore> right, am off
[00:58] <edmoore> gnight
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[01:16] <shellevil> surely that's a wing loading thing though
[01:16] <shellevil> oh
[01:17] <Laurenceb> I'm not convinced
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[09:08] <jcoxon> morning
[09:14] <rjharrison> hi
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[09:29] <shellevil> orn
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[09:47] <edmoore_> good morning jcoxon
[09:48] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[09:54] aLeXBrEtOn (n=Alexande@client-80-5-40-149.cht-bng-014.adsl.virginmedia.net) joined #highaltitude.
[09:55] <aLeXBrEtOn> greets
[09:55] <aLeXBrEtOn> a shiny transmitter arrived in the post =)
[09:56] <edmoore_> congrats aLeXBrEtOn
[09:56] <edmoore_> exciting times
[09:56] <aLeXBrEtOn> ehe
[09:56] <aLeXBrEtOn> gonna call local news soon
[09:57] <shellevil> maybe also radio - record the launch, and pickup, and maybe some of searching for balloon
[10:02] <aLeXBrEtOn> mm
[10:11] <G8KHW> Oh and BTW I updated the random solutions/aerospace/engineering website http://www.randomsolutions.co.uk/ with latest prices & stuff (sameless plug)
[10:11] <G8KHW> shameles
[10:12] <edmoore_> but useful :)
[10:13] <jcoxon> 300g are cheap
[10:13] <jcoxon> remember back in the days of just using 200g balloons
[10:13] <edmoore_> no :p
[10:14] <G8KHW> I like the ones that bulged
[10:14] <edmoore_> latex crapoons
[10:14] <jcoxon> hehe they were slightly scary
[10:14] <jcoxon> one day i'll rebuild pegasus I
[10:15] <jcoxon> and launch with a 200g
[10:15] <jcoxon> old school stylee
[10:15] <edmoore_> then have a 3kg blow-out :)
[10:17] Action: G8KHW thinks - With all these balloons in stock I think i'm getting a bit of a thing for the smell of latex - perhaps the less said the better.
[10:18] <jcoxon> :)
[10:24] <gordonjcp> ;-)
[10:25] <edmoore_> :o
[10:26] <shellevil> 200g?
[10:26] <shellevil> oh
[10:26] <shellevil> I see - not on list
[10:27] <aLeXBrEtOn> updated blog ;-)
[10:27] <aLeXBrEtOn> http://www.alienproject.wordpress.com
[10:29] <edmoore_> aLeXBrEtOn: cool
[10:29] <aLeXBrEtOn> ty
[10:29] <edmoore_> you're in Reading, wasn't it?
[10:30] <aLeXBrEtOn> yep
[10:30] <aLeXBrEtOn> though no launch possible here
[10:30] <edmoore_> cool. Well you're duty-bound to come to Cambridge now
[10:30] <aLeXBrEtOn> we are right under the transatlantic air route ;-)
[10:30] <aLeXBrEtOn> there's a 747 flying over right now ;-)
[10:32] <edmoore_> so you're using the arduino just for the hardware and going normal avr-gcc stuff instead?
[10:33] <aLeXBrEtOn> not sure, better ask daniel
[10:34] <aLeXBrEtOn> I think the arduino has everything
[10:41] <rjharrison> aLeXBrEtOn: where in reading are you
[10:41] <aLeXBrEtOn> erm East reading
[10:41] <aLeXBrEtOn> near the university
[10:41] <rjharrison> woodley
[10:41] <aLeXBrEtOn> not quite woodley
[10:41] <rjharrison> I used to live in Twyford for a few years
[10:48] <aLeXBrEtOn> ah yeah not too far from here
[10:49] <aLeXBrEtOn> you guys reckon I can ask for free batteries?
[10:49] <aLeXBrEtOn> after all, great publicity for energizer
[10:50] <jcoxon> you can try but i'm not sure how far you get
[10:50] <aLeXBrEtOn> yeah it's a bit OTT
[10:50] <jcoxon> they are a much bigger company then say radiometrix so aren't that fussed usually
[10:50] <aLeXBrEtOn> free arduino more likely =)
[10:51] <jcoxon> free arduino? from where?
[10:51] <jcoxon> again that aren't really a profit making company
[10:51] <aLeXBrEtOn> libelium
[10:51] <aLeXBrEtOn> http://www.libelium.com
[10:51] <jcoxon> have they said yes?
[10:52] <aLeXBrEtOn> no gonna ask
[10:52] <jcoxon> oh right
[10:52] <aLeXBrEtOn> they are is spain tho...
[10:52] <aLeXBrEtOn> but it says that they speak english
[10:55] <aLeXBrEtOn> grrrrr
[10:55] <aLeXBrEtOn> obviously in their siesta
[10:55] <aLeXBrEtOn> no-one to answer the phone
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[10:58] <fergusnoble> hello
[10:59] <gordonjcp> hihi
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[13:26] <aLeXBrEtOn> good day everyone
[13:26] <aLeXBrEtOn> I have obtained a box =)
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[13:31] <SpeedEvil> Is it a nice box? With a two-level effect, and a stream running down the middle?
[13:32] <sbasuita> SpeedEvil,
[13:32] <sbasuita> <aLeXBrEtOn> 41cm long by 27cm wide and 15 high
[13:32] <sbasuita> he's doing the whole suspense thing
[13:32] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, wait
[13:32] <sbasuita> is this the box for the payload container?
[13:32] <sbasuita> or does it actually have something in it?
[13:32] <aLeXBrEtOn> it has nothing in it
[13:33] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, ...
[13:33] <sbasuita> it's a bit big
[13:33] <aLeXBrEtOn> just an empty box
[13:33] <aLeXBrEtOn> it is, but that means we can fit more insulation in
[13:33] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, and make it heavier
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> how heavy?
[13:33] <aLeXBrEtOn> alternatively I can go buy polystyrene sheets
[13:33] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, i say chop one end off
[13:33] <sbasuita> and stick a sheet on
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> that works too
[13:33] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, yeh, how much does it weigh?
[13:33] <aLeXBrEtOn> sounds like a bad-ish idea
[13:34] <aLeXBrEtOn> structural integrity
[13:34] <SpeedEvil> you don't need much.
[13:34] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, meh, if it's light enough....
[13:35] <aLeXBrEtOn> 160g
[13:36] <aLeXBrEtOn> is that OK for mr perfect?
[13:36] <aLeXBrEtOn> I've got pics
[13:36] <aLeXBrEtOn> it has a lid ;-)
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> oops.
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> path down the middle, not stream.
[13:36] <aLeXBrEtOn> errrr
[13:37] <aLeXBrEtOn> what do you mean?
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> never mind.
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> Bad python reference.
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> http://www.scribd.com/doc/2946148/MontyPython-Script-Ni
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[13:44] <aLeXBrEtOn> box posted ;-)
[13:53] <sbasuita> Yay! Great news guys: local paper (Reading Evening Post) say they definitely want to do a story on us!
[13:54] <shellevil> :)
[13:54] <shellevil> how many is 'us' ?
[13:54] <sbasuita> shellevil, 3
[13:54] <sbasuita> shellevil, I guess they'll turn the launch and chase into some epic adventure
[13:55] <shellevil> :)
[13:55] <aLeXBrEtOn> me
[13:55] <aLeXBrEtOn> they just called me in person ;-)
[13:56] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, pfft
[13:56] <aLeXBrEtOn> :P
[13:57] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, who's that education guy?
[13:57] <aLeXBrEtOn> some woman ;-)
[13:57] <aLeXBrEtOn> lemme find out
[13:57] <Hiena> Any idea, how to convert the raw NMEA log to kml under linux?
[13:58] <aLeXBrEtOn> chine mbubaegbu ;-)
[13:58] <aLeXBrEtOn> ring any bells?
[13:59] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, what? mbubaegbu
[14:00] <shellevil> Hiena: gpsbabel
[14:02] <shellevil> Hiena: gpsbabel -i nmea -f - -x transform,wpt=trk,del -x radius,distance=1.2K,lat=56.209,lon=-3.117,exclude,nosort -x transform,trk=wpt,del -o gpx -F
[14:03] <shellevil> for example is a complex command line to put all trackpoints outside a circle into a file from stdin
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[14:07] <Hiena> shellevil, thanks.
[14:07] <Hiena> I'll try it.
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[15:05] <aLeXBrEtOn> jcoxon, where is your receiver?
[15:05] <aLeXBrEtOn> the one you said we could borrow ;-)
[15:07] <sbasuita> hah
[15:07] <sbasuita> "Hand it over, punk!"
[15:07] <aLeXBrEtOn> shat yo face, sbasuita
[15:07] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, ;P
[15:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> what now?
[15:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> we really should get to work on the box ;-)
[15:08] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, what you gonna do?
[15:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> cut a hole
[15:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> fit insulation
[15:08] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, nah
[15:08] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, try blagging some more stuff
[15:08] <sbasuita> ;)
[15:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> well we are sitting around doing nothing
[15:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> no impossible
[15:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> what do you want to blag?
[15:09] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, dunno
[15:09] <sbasuita> what's still left on the list?
[15:10] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, arduino?
[15:10] <aLeXBrEtOn> tried calling, no-one was there
[15:10] <aLeXBrEtOn> can try again
[15:10] <aLeXBrEtOn> reading chronicle will gobble up our story
[15:24] <jcoxon> aLeXBrEtOn, i've emailed the person who has it
[15:24] <jcoxon> to see if he has finished with it
[15:24] <aLeXBrEtOn> thanks ;-)
[15:25] <aLeXBrEtOn> where is he located?
[15:25] <aLeXBrEtOn> ideally we would like to pick it up directly from him
[15:25] <jcoxon> in hampshire
[15:25] <aLeXBrEtOn> town?
[15:25] <jcoxon> but i'm not sure it is available yet
[15:25] <aLeXBrEtOn> k we don't need it yet anyway
[15:26] <jcoxon> yeah thats what i thought
[15:33] <edmoore_> hi jcoxon
[15:33] Nick change: edmoore_ -> M0TEK
[15:35] <jcoxon> hey edmoore / M0TEK
[15:40] <M0TEK> M0TEK currently, jcoxon
[15:40] <M0TEK> edmoore is my other macbook which is just being a wireless hotspot
[15:40] <jcoxon> fair enough
[15:40] <M0TEK> i can't be bothered to walk across the room and close down the irc client
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> :)
[15:40] <M0TEK> ooooh vnc
[15:40] <M0TEK> that'll do it
[15:41] <jcoxon> haha
[15:42] <jcoxon> ping natrium42
[15:45] <jcoxon> can't wait for these exams to be done
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[15:45] <M0TEK> vnc 1, legs 0
[15:46] <M0TEK> + I made a coffee whilst chieck of the vnc was downloading
[15:46] <jcoxon> ooo i found a better vnc client
[15:46] <jcoxon> chicken is slow
[15:46] <M0TEK> oh?
[15:46] <jcoxon> http://www.jinx.de/JollysFastVNC.html
[15:49] <M0TEK> funky zooming
[15:52] <M0TEK> jcoxon: 'screen sharing' is built in
[15:52] <M0TEK> d'oh
[15:52] <M0TEK> and a lot faster than chicken
[15:53] <jcoxon> oh mac os x screen sharing?
[15:53] <jcoxon> yeah but i vnc into my ubuntu server as well
[15:54] <M0TEK> true dat
[15:55] <jcoxon> do you like our test flight for the listener: http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/
[15:56] <M0TEK> show off :p
[15:57] <jcoxon> i've been writing simple sims to generate ridiculous flights
[15:58] <M0TEK> so what was the conclusion of halo3 re: venus gps?
[15:58] <M0TEK> lost cause or just needs adjusting?
[15:58] <jcoxon> and then running through steve's msfk code to make wav files
[15:58] <jcoxon> seems the old venus firmware is 18km and dies
[15:58] <M0TEK> but there's new firmware?
[15:58] <jcoxon> but the new firmware natrium42 has been assured by the manufactures is an OR jobby
[15:58] <M0TEK> ok cool
[15:59] <M0TEK> you mean AND I presume
[15:59] <jcoxon> oh yeah
[15:59] <jcoxon> thats the one
[16:00] <M0TEK> but the rest of the flight computer worked ok?
[16:00] <jcoxon> yeah very well
[16:00] <M0TEK> awesome
[16:00] <M0TEK> very exciting
[16:01] <jcoxon> found out today that the PBH ZP flight used an adapted rockmite 30m transmitter
[16:01] <M0TEK> PBH?
[16:01] <jcoxon> Project Blue Horizons
[16:01] <jcoxon> last weekend ther ewas a rogue zp balloon
[16:02] <M0TEK> missed that. any links to fill me in?
[16:02] <jcoxon> failed to cutdown over vermont and went off over newfoundland where the reestablished contact and cut it down
[16:02] <jcoxon> http://twitter.com/pbh3
[16:03] <M0TEK> oh those guys
[16:03] <M0TEK> the lockheed martin amateurs
[16:04] <jcoxon> if you go on aprs.fi and use the callsign KC2TUA-8 you can see the track
[16:04] <jcoxon> yeah
[16:04] <M0TEK> not at all oxymoronic, perish the thought
[16:04] <jcoxon> indeed
[16:06] <shellevil> anyone found a webpage - or more than the twitter?
[16:07] <jcoxon> there is no webpage it seems
[16:07] <jcoxon> heard it on the chat box for bill brown's launch
[16:07] <jcoxon> from Ralph Wallio (W0RPK)
[16:08] <shellevil> A couple of days ago, I'm pretty sure I heard someone refer to a PC with 5 1/2" disks as 'the new computer'.
[16:08] <M0TEK> there should be a ukhas svn fo sho
[16:09] <jcoxon> what needs to be put on it?
[16:09] <shellevil> On the subject of things that seem anachronistic. (a HA flight with no webpage)
[16:09] <M0TEK> distributed listerener, tracker, nmea simulator etc
[16:09] <shellevil> source for tracker, laurencb's para code?
[16:09] <shellevil> If he wants to
[16:09] <M0TEK> that kind of thing yeah
[16:10] <M0TEK> would make it easier to collab
[16:10] <M0TEK> (orate)
[16:10] <jcoxon> i don't see a pressing need for one to tell the truth
[16:11] <M0TEK> it's not pressing, granted
[16:11] <jcoxon> most bits of code are simple scripts or snippets
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[16:13] <jcoxon> would need to grab ben sometime to get access to the server to set it up
[16:13] <jcoxon> shall see if i can catch him - no harm in having it in place
[16:14] <M0TEK> how is ben?
[16:15] <M0TEK> a-levels or have we moved on?
[16:15] <M0TEK> I've lost track
[16:17] <jcoxon> he is at Warwick doing physics i think
[16:17] <M0TEK> cool
[16:17] <M0TEK> do you want me to test the DL client on my mbp?
[16:18] <jcoxon> M0TEK, yeah if you've got time
[16:18] <jcoxon> i've made a new version today
[16:18] <M0TEK> ok. will d/l
[16:18] <M0TEK> oh?
[16:18] <M0TEK> 4 or later?
[16:18] <jcoxon> http://spacenear.us/wiki/doku.php?id=dlistening:client
[16:18] <jcoxon> yeah v4
[16:18] <M0TEK> got it
[16:19] <jcoxon> by default you need to be running fldigi
[16:19] <jcoxon> however you don't have to
[16:19] <jcoxon> with --no-fldigi it'll ask you to provide the path for hte log file
[16:19] <M0TEK> where should i run the client from?
[16:19] <jcoxon> --sim will read a log file and work its way through it simulating a flight
[16:19] <jcoxon> M0TEK, anywhere, if you are running fldigi it'll find the log file
[16:19] <M0TEK> smart
[16:20] <jcoxon> first run will ask you some qs to set up a config file
[16:20] <jcoxon> actually M0TEK if you wait one sec i'll put up the latest latest version
[16:20] <M0TEK> svn :p
[16:21] Action: jcoxon ignores M0TEK
[16:21] <jcoxon> done
[16:22] <jcoxon> http://spacenear.us/wiki/doku.php?id=dlistening:client:radioclient4
[16:25] <M0TEK> No new data
[16:25] <M0TEK> but seems to work
[16:25] <M0TEK> nice
[16:25] <M0TEK> python is cool
[16:25] <jcoxon> http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/loggers.php
[16:26] <M0TEK> very cool
[16:26] <M0TEK> i like this jimbo
[16:26] <jcoxon> the server is rjharrison 's work
[16:26] <jcoxon> raw data is here: http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/view.php
[16:27] <jcoxon> as i can get the client to control fldigi i'm thinking of having it go online to a webpage on the server and grabbing the flight info
[16:27] <jcoxon> such as USB, RTTY, settings and freq
[16:27] <jcoxon> and then setting it all up for you automagically
[16:27] <M0TEK> yes - that would be neat
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[16:28] <M0TEK> if there are several up in the air at once, then you can geographically optimisie the listening posts
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[16:28] <jcoxon> yeah, with care not to appear to take over people's 'puter
[16:28] <jcoxon> the one thing is it still needs a human eye to stick the decoding lines on to hte signal
[16:29] <jcoxon> if only there was a sort of scanning function of fldigi which meant that it went left and right till it found a signal and then sat there
[16:30] <jcoxon> more then the present ATC
[16:31] <jcoxon> right will bbl
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[16:32] Action: sbasuita can confirm there is very little to be excited about after booting a jaunty beta livecd
[16:32] <M0TEK> anything at all?
[16:32] <sbasuita> M0TEK, nothing but the notifications system
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[16:33] <sbasuita> I guess the only thing I am interested in is the ext4/faster boot times
[16:34] <sbasuita> But you can't really experience that on a livecd
[16:34] <sbasuita> ; )
[16:36] <M0TEK> true
[16:37] <M0TEK> need to put something on a cu spaceflight server box
[16:37] <M0TEK> will just probably plonk o the most recent ubuntu server LTS
[16:37] <sbasuita> M0TEK, good choice
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[17:11] <Hiena> Well, well, well....
[17:11] <Hiena> Seems like te telemetry has it's own limitations...
[17:12] <Hiena> It's a tree blockhouse, if i want to be exact.
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[17:44] <jcoxon> wow the 40m band is busy today
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> long band is long.
[17:46] <M0TEK> gosh yes
[17:47] <jcoxon> M0TEK, you got an antenna up?
[17:48] <M0TEK> websdr currently
[17:48] <jcoxon> oh right
[17:48] <M0TEK> i am in the worst possible pla e for an hf antenna
[17:48] <M0TEK> ever
[17:48] <jcoxon> 20m is quite busy as well
[17:49] <M0TEK> there is something vasst, energetic and helical on 80m
[17:51] <M0TEK> and someone talking all over the digital bands
[17:51] <jcoxon> yeah yt8a
[17:51] <jcoxon> on a contest
[17:52] <jcoxon> the 40m band doubles in size very soon
[17:52] <M0TEK> cool
[17:52] <M0TEK> anything exciting from a trans pov?
[17:52] <jcoxon> in what sense?
[17:53] <jcoxon> trans balloon?
[17:53] <M0TEK> YEAH
[17:53] <M0TEK> whoops
[17:54] <M0TEK> i.e. more space for some digital modes
[17:54] <jcoxon> maybe
[17:55] <jcoxon> but cause the transmitter we have is crystal based i think we are going to be around 7.040
[17:57] <M0TEK> i don't know if there'd be any advantage to us trying, but it might be fun for us to try and make a biggish vertical yagi that we could lift with a balloon
[17:57] <M0TEK> to try and listen
[17:57] <jcoxon> :-)
[17:57] <jcoxon> a large moxon wouldn't be difficult
[17:57] <jcoxon> not as good perhaps but more pratical
[17:58] <M0TEK> a big-ol 7mhz 4-el yagi would be fun to build
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> Phased array of balloons.
[17:58] <M0TEK> yeah
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> You know you want to!
[17:58] <M0TEK> 4 balloons in a phased array would be cool
[17:58] <M0TEK> but wed basically always want to look to the west
[17:58] <M0TEK> we'd*
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> I've wondered for a bit about a guyed teeny blimp.
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> Though I don't know what the legalities are.
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> A cigar-shape, with guy-ropes out at 45 degrees, to keep it stationary.
[18:03] <M0TEK> i think there's a height limit of (blah... 200ft iirc)
[18:03] <M0TEK> otherwise it's basically as you want
[18:09] <M0TEK> jcoxon: one improvement for the client could be more graceful falling over
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[18:10] <M0TEK> for instance running it without fldigi open, but no specifiying --no-fldigi, causes a window full of socket.error s and nothing else for me
[18:11] <M0TEK> i know that's deliberately breaking it...
[18:12] <jcoxon> oh yes i know
[18:12] <jcoxon> am working on that
[18:12] <M0TEK> it is an awesome thing though
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[18:14] <jcoxon> really need to test it on a flight
[18:15] <jcoxon> with people having it working in the background
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> M0TEK: yeah - I'll have to look it up.
[18:15] <M0TEK> jcoxon: I'll try and run it net flight
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> mot: a little one would actually be quite simple to make
[18:15] <M0TEK> mot?
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> M0TEK
[18:15] <M0TEK> realised shortly after
[18:15] Action: SpeedEvil has a font which does not sufficiently discriminate between 0 and O.
[18:15] <jcoxon> M0TEK, yeah that would be great
[18:16] <M0TEK> jcoxon: will try and find somewhere to leave my radio running
[18:16] <jcoxon> i've been thinking, between rob, myself and steve we could cover a hell of a of land
[18:16] <jcoxon> lot*
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> I've got a nice quiet site here radio-wise - but I'm in a bit of a hollow.
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> And a bit far probably.
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> Oh - for HF
[18:18] <M0TEK> i can cover the south!
[18:18] <M0TEK> not that there's much round here
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> Random link of the day.
[18:19] <M0TEK> share
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Arm9-S3C2440-Dev-Board-with-NEC-3-5-touch-screen_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1683Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem220385322268QQitemZ220385322268QQptZLHQ5fDefaultDomainQ5f3QQsalenotsupportedhttp://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Arm9-S3C2440-Dev-Board-with-NEC-3-5-touch-screen_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1683Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZi
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Arm9-S3C2440-Dev-Board-with-NEC-3-5-touch-screen_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1683Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem220385322268QQitemZ220385322268QQptZLHQ5fDefaultDomainQ5f3QQsalenotsupported
[18:19] <jcoxon> its going to be very cool when rob gets it plotting listeners as well
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> even
[18:19] <M0TEK> then we'll get the predictor integrated
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> I don't know if that's a one-off price, in which case it's cool.
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> Or a continual price, in which case it's _very_ cool
[18:19] <jcoxon> its quite a bit of kit for that price
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> It could just - for example - be kit from a class - that has stopped.
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> about the same as the sheevaplug
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> though that has usb2 and no display
[18:21] <M0TEK> this is partly why i think an all-up svn would have an advantage - so that there is one central working tracker + predictor (before and dynamic) + listening client that everyone promises to keep working and that anyone can put on a basic LAMP box
[18:21] <M0TEK> we're not ready for that yet, but when all the building blocks start needing to get fused, there may be an advantage to having on
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> LAMP?
[18:21] <M0TEK> UKHAS-TRACK
[18:22] <M0TEK> Linux Apache Mysql PHP
[18:22] <jcoxon> beat me to it
[18:22] <M0TEK> i.e. a basic web servery box
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> Oooh - neat.
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Spectrum-Analyzer-AT5010-1GHz-NEW_W0QQitemZ220385322560QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item220385322560&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
[18:23] <natrium42> <aLeXBrEtOn> you guys reckon I can ask for free batteries? <-- we did get free batteries from energizer
[18:23] <aLeXBrEtOn> really?
[18:23] <aLeXBrEtOn> where's the phone number?
[18:23] <sbasuita> natrium42, you called up energizer?
[18:23] <aLeXBrEtOn> they are closed now
[18:23] <aLeXBrEtOn> so monday ;-)
[18:24] <natrium42> syx66 did, he is offline atm
[18:24] <aLeXBrEtOn> I couldn't find a phone number though
[18:24] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, check out softrock
[18:24] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, 800-383-7323
[18:24] <natrium42> they sent us quite a few CRV3's
[18:24] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, that's general enquiries
[18:24] <jcoxon> might be an answer to your HF listening station...
[18:25] <M0TEK> SpeedEvil: re: the arm 9 thing, check out the ngw100
[18:25] <M0TEK> no display, granted
[18:25] <M0TEK> but sweet
[18:25] <sbasuita> aLeXBrEtOn, here's something to get you going: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-identify-200-children-as-potential-terrorists-1656027.html
[18:25] <M0TEK> sbasuita: are you Reading-based too?
[18:25] <sbasuita> M0TEK, near reading, yes
[18:25] <M0TEK> cool
[18:25] <sbasuita> M0TEK, where are you?
[18:25] <M0TEK> there's a reasonable guildford contingent here
[18:26] <M0TEK> I'm in Cambridge at the moment, but live in west sussex. used to live just south of guildford, was born there too
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> M0TEK: yes - sweet - but about the same price.
[18:26] <M0TEK> true
[18:28] <M0TEK> they used to be $69
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> Shares with the shevaplug thing that it'd be awesome if it were 15 quid.
[18:28] <M0TEK> which with the exchange rate was... exciting
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> For example, I'd be getting a dozen or so sheevaplugs, and doing stuff like room audio, and security cameras with them.
[18:31] <SpeedEvil> Oh.
[18:31] <SpeedEvil> Random one-wire question.
[18:31] <M0TEK> ask hallam
[18:31] <M0TEK> never coded it in my life
[18:31] <M0TEK> he did for the old CUSF trackers
[18:31] <SpeedEvil> Do two temperature sensors that presumably came off the reel together have sequential - or nearly so IDs?
[18:32] <SpeedEvil> Oh - I thought laurencb was here
[18:32] Action: SpeedEvil is implementing a one-wire house net.
[18:32] <jcoxon> M0TEK, for configuring the DLClient you reckon the questions are easy enough to work with - or how about a localhost web page?
[18:33] <jcoxon> you run the client then go to localhost:xxxx in your browser and config it there
[18:33] <M0TEK> nah, this is pretty easy
[18:33] <jcoxon> okay cool
[18:33] <jcoxon> on windows its not so fun
[18:33] <M0TEK> if they can get the script running in the first place, they can deal with that
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[18:34] <M0TEK> what may be useful for non computery people is actually knowing how to run a script
[18:34] <jcoxon> could do some image guides
[18:34] <M0TEK> but you have that info on your wiki so i think it's cool
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[18:35] <M0TEK> if you wanted to be cool, a youtube video with voice commentary is def the way to do it
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> twitter
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> Because nothings cool if it's over 150 bytes.
[18:35] <M0TEK> right, gtg
[18:35] <M0TEK> bbl
[18:35] <jcoxon> cya
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> wve
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[19:17] <natrium42> shuttle just landed
[19:17] <sbasuita> natrium42, NASA?
[19:18] <natrium42> yes
[19:18] <natrium42> i was watching nasa tv
[19:18] <sbasuita> natrium42, might as well tune in...
[19:19] <natrium42> usually the astronauts do a walk around 1 hour or so after landing
[19:20] <sbasuita> natrium42, you mean they stay in the shuttle for an hour after landing?
[19:20] <natrium42> no, they stay for a bit but then transfer to a van
[19:20] <natrium42> and you can't see them
[19:21] <sbasuita> natrium42, is there any point in me continuing to watch the shuttle parked there?
[19:21] <natrium42> first you will see people in hazard suits walking around checking for any leaks
[19:21] <natrium42> sbasuita, it depends how much of a space nut you are :)
[19:22] <sbasuita> natrium42, ooh movement
[19:22] Action: sbasuita continues watching
[19:22] <natrium42> rofl
[19:23] <sbasuita> natrium42, nah, fish and chips have arrived.
[19:23] Action: sbasuita leaves
[19:23] <sbasuita> ; P
[19:23] <natrium42> :P
[19:23] <natrium42> you should have tuned in earlier for landing
[19:25] <sbasuita> natrium42, next time alert me before something cool happens ;)
[19:25] <natrium42> fine, fine
[19:35] <natrium42> Laurenceb_, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7967600.stm
[19:35] <natrium42> lol
[19:37] <Laurenceb_> :P
[19:38] <Laurenceb_> "Our moon seems to disappear during an eclipse. Some people say this is because an old lady covers the moon with her cloak. She does this so that thieves cannot steal the shiny coins on the surface"
[19:38] <Laurenceb_> seriously WTF
[19:38] <natrium42> indeed
[19:38] <natrium42> i have no idea which answer is "correct" either
[19:40] <Hiena> Grrrr.... Any idea, how to forward the /dev/ttyS1 to the gpsbabel?
[19:40] <Laurenceb_> what were they smoking
[19:41] <Laurenceb_> they appear to think we're living in the middle ages
[19:49] <aLeXBrEtOn> ah that
[19:49] <aLeXBrEtOn> GCSE science is a joke
[19:49] <aLeXBrEtOn> speaking from 1st hand experience
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[20:07] <Hiena> Well, well, well... Finishing the telemetry suddenly expanded my to do list.
[20:10] <Hiena> I really nees a reliable battery monitoring and alarm system. One moment ago, suddenly disappeared ny telemetry from the air, and i received only a gibberis.
[20:10] <Hiena> It takes several minutes until i found the base station battery went dead.
[20:11] <Hiena> It's unacceptable for the real-life measurement.
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[20:30] <Laurenceb_> Hiena: what radio are you using?
[20:31] <Hiena> Aurel XTR-7020-4
[20:31] <Hiena> 10dBm 433Mhz radiomodem.
[20:32] <Laurenceb_> neat
[20:32] <Hiena> Witha plenty of handicap.
[20:32] <Laurenceb_> I was thinking of using some of the chipcon modules for telemetery
[20:32] <Laurenceb_> what is the sensitivity?
[20:33] <Hiena> Dunno, today test showed around 300m with a stick antenna.
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> ok
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> you could try a yagi
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> how do you talk to the module?
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> serial? spi?
[20:34] <Hiena> Serial. TTL. The PIC speeds up and form a 7 byte packet for the transmission.
[20:34] <Laurenceb_> ok
[20:35] <Hiena> The modul has 2.6ms preamble for each transmission, and the modem block it's input during this time.
[20:36] <Hiena> I spent almost two weeks until i came up the working firmware to overome this problem.
[20:36] <Hiena> At this moment i would rather build my own transreceiver from the scratch.
[20:38] <Hiena> I'll charge the batteries, and going to test the setup in the air tomorrow.
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[21:18] <Laurenceb_> the astrovan is sweet
[21:18] <natrium42> hehe
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[21:43] <shellevil> Hiena: you got the babel sorted?
[21:43] <Hiena> Yup.
[21:43] <Hiena> The problem was the dead batteries,
[21:44] <shellevil> http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1238271614468.jpg sorta on-topic, and worksafe
[21:44] <shellevil> I mean gpsbabel
[21:45] <Hiena> Not nice, when you have a robot running amok with the GPS, and i'm trying to sort out is there a command line or hardware failure.
[21:45] <shellevil> :)
[21:45] <shellevil> Especially not when it's hunting you down through the air-ducts.
[21:45] <shellevil> Oh no - that was a different movie.
[21:50] <Hiena> Luckily there is nor air-ducts, but still funny, whe suddenly you got strange readings from the accelerometer, the camera's picture start tilting and suddenly you saw two clawed paws grabbing on it.
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[22:13] <sbasuita> jcoxon, about the transceiver: do we need to acquire some sort of antenna for it? Or does it have a little yagi-buddy?
[22:16] <jcoxon> it has a whip
[22:16] <jcoxon> thats all you'll need for testing
[22:16] <sbasuita> jcoxon, a whip is just a straight antenna right? Is that directional, or broadcastish?
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[22:25] <jcoxon> its omnidirectional
[22:25] <sbasuita> jcoxon, that's the word I was looking for ;D
[22:25] <edmoore> in one axis
[22:25] <sbasuita> edmoore, horizontal?
[22:25] <edmoore> yep
[22:25] Action: sbasuita is reading up on antenna theory on wp now
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[22:43] <sbasuita> Could someone be so kind as to put wikipedia into plain english? "Yagis are directional along the axis perpendicular to the dipole in the plane of the elements, from the reflector through the driven element and out via the director(s)."
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> point the long bit at the transmitter
[22:44] <sbasuita> SpeedEvil, ah, it becomes clear : )
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[22:48] <jcoxon> sbasuita, my favourite wikipedia: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna
[22:49] <sbasuita> jcoxon, I would rather wade through pages of archaic greek symbols than feel I have missed out on a part of mankind's knowledge ;P
[22:50] <jcoxon> hehe but simple.wikipedia is always amusing
[22:50] <jcoxon> its all about thinking of something ridiculously complicated and seeing how they've simplified it
[22:51] <icez> Antennas work properly in air or outer space :O
[22:52] <sbasuita> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_differential_equation
[22:52] <icez> I wanna see someone use walky-talkies underwater :P
[22:52] <sbasuita> "Partial differential equations are a kind of math."
[22:52] <jcoxon> isn't it brilliant
[22:54] <jcoxon> woohoo 2 more days till i can order some stuff for BallastHalo
[22:54] <jcoxon> (after my exams)
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> In some ways it's great. (wikipedia) in some ways it's fuckheads demonstrating they know lots of big words.
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> My favourite example was the article on leather
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> Which used the word 'putrascible'.
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[22:56] <SpeedEvil> Now, do you actually know - rather than can probably guess - what that means?
[22:56] <jcoxon> i don't
[22:56] <SpeedEvil> When without losing anything, 'rot' would work just fine.
[22:56] <jcoxon> its got a suprisingly good medical section
[22:56] <jcoxon> someone has put a lot of effort into it
[22:56] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[22:57] <jcoxon> and when i was doing my BA it has an excellent section on various forms of early humans
[22:58] Action: jcoxon perhaps uses wikipedia too much
[22:58] <jcoxon> its good for quickly checking what something means
[23:00] Action: Laurenceb_ has kebab
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> 'A selection of burnt meats and vegetables on a stick, originating in drunkenness'.
[23:01] <jcoxon> haha
[23:02] <jcoxon> please: http://blog.makezine.com/
[23:02] <jcoxon> laugh at hte title of the first article
[23:02] <Laurenceb_> cool
[23:03] <Laurenceb_> but they have sensible articles :-/
[23:03] <jcoxon> i know
[23:03] <Laurenceb_> what happened to breasts in a box :-(
[23:03] <jcoxon> its just Spanish Students beat NASA
[23:03] <jcoxon> oh right you were refering to wikipedia
[23:03] <Laurenceb_> no makezine
[23:03] <jcoxon> oh right
[23:04] <Laurenceb_> guess they tried to clean it up :P
[23:04] <sbasuita> hah
[23:05] <jcoxon> okay i'm off
[23:05] <jcoxon> night all
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[23:56] <Laurenceb_> http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/09/17/sunbed460x276.jpg
[00:00] --- Sun Mar 29 2009