highaltitude.log.20090324

[00:00] <SpeedEvil> what's bad about taping the bottom of the envelope shut again?
[00:00] <SpeedEvil> oh, bursting.
[00:00] <hallam> goes pop
[00:00] <hallam> SteamAtom: you could build the whole balloon out of them
[00:00] <hallam> or rather, it
[00:00] <SpeedEvil> I'm planning one made of foil.
[00:00] <SpeedEvil> Al catering foil, glued together.
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> It's quite cheap in bulk, and actually can be glued together _really_ strongly with lap-joints and hot-melt glue in a tiny layer.
[00:01] <hallam> but oh god the labour
[00:01] <hallam> SpeedEvil: I hope you enjoy repetitive tasks
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> I've got a sort-of-machine.
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> I was planning on cheating on the ends, and not really having anything approaching roundness.
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> which helps.
[00:02] <Laurenceb> urely any mismatches cause the stress to concentrate?
[00:02] <hallam> I wasn't even around for the CUSF Squid experiments and I *still* never ever want to build a balloon by hand
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> yes, they do.
[00:02] <Laurenceb> and... cause it to tear
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> question is - as I see it - can you get it above the troposphere without fracturing.
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> Once it's up there past the turbulence, it should be OK.
[00:03] <SteamAtom> for reliability and forensic analysis, you really want as few man-made seams as possible
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> machine made.
[00:03] <SteamAtom> I liked Mark caveizel's sausage balloon for snox 1 best
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> Though a simple machine.
[00:03] <SteamAtom> only 1 man-made seam
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> I like the look of quadroon I think.
[00:04] <SteamAtom> the problem is also that there are a lot of severe forces on a balloon, and adhesives change in -50C temperatures
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> I haven't admittedly tried -50C
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> seemed OK at -30 though
[00:04] <SteamAtom> so you need to test potential adhesives in dry ice cryo chambers
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> freezer
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> the film of adhesive is _very_ thin
[00:05] <hallam> what about welding the Al foil?
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> hallam: plz can I has lazer weldor!
[00:05] <SteamAtom> hallam, the al foil is deposited on mylar, which doesn't seem very easy to heat-seal
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> SteamAtom: err - no - actual aluminium foil.
[00:05] <Laurenceb> maybe heated rollers?
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> SteamAtom: catering suppliers go down to about 7 micron IIRC
[00:06] <Laurenceb> - no rollers with large current between them
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> SteamAtom: that's about the equivalent weightwise of 18um or so PE
[00:06] <SteamAtom> hm, the problem is then it becomes extremely fragile for handling during launch
[00:06] <SteamAtom> which is invariably going to be violent in one way or another
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> worst case, I waste 20 quid, and have lots of foil over me.
[00:06] <SteamAtom> whether it's someone tripping over the balloon or the wind bringing up a gust into a building
[00:06] <Laurenceb> not if its very calm and you do it carefully
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> (for the initial test)
[00:07] <SteamAtom> and $100 in helium out into space :-)
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> helium?
[00:07] Action: SpeedEvil has a natural gas tap in the kitchen, and /me plans to use it.
[00:07] <SteamAtom> testing is very good
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> at least for testing.
[00:07] <Laurenceb> maybe steel wheels with graphite "tires"
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> Though I have wondered about balloons stabilised by condensing stuff
[00:07] <Laurenceb> then a few hundered amps
[00:08] <Laurenceb> nasa fied with cfcs
[00:08] <Laurenceb> *tried
[00:08] <Laurenceb> think it worked
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> for example, a natural gas balloon, with a butane container
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> err - propane
[00:08] <SteamAtom> yeah, ammonia works well for balloons
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> the natural gas dissolves in the propane, and can be dissolved off by gentle heating for more lift.
[00:08] <SteamAtom> but it's super toxic to us mammals
[00:08] <Laurenceb> yeah nasa have tried several balloons along these lines
[00:09] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: but the propane is under pressure
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> though I havne't gone as far as looking up absorbtion
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: not at altitude
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: and temperature
[00:09] <Laurenceb> what... its liquid?
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> From phase diagrams, seems to be.
[00:09] <Laurenceb> neat
[00:10] <Laurenceb> could use propane/helium then
[00:10] <SpeedEvil> however, check this before launch :)
[00:10] Action: SpeedEvil has no nice library.
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> I wish individual subscriptions to journals weren't OMG!
[00:11] <SteamAtom> yeah really speedevil
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> I mean - I would quite like physics review, forex.
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> But - I'm not willing to give up eating for it.
[00:12] <fergusnoble> hallam: we should really move on getting a zp up after your exams
[00:12] <hallam> yup
[00:12] <SteamAtom> are you guys making your own envelopes?
[00:13] <fergusnoble> yeah
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> lots of latex used
[00:13] <SteamAtom> how do you all do long duration flight planning?
[00:13] <hallam> we have a Machine
[00:13] <SteamAtom> really
[00:13] <SteamAtom> nice
[00:13] <hallam> it's a bit experimental atm
[00:13] <hallam> it also produces more static electricity than anything I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot
[00:13] <SteamAtom> haha
[00:13] <Tigga_> it hurt
[00:13] <Tigga_> s
[00:14] <Tigga_> especially when it catches you in the crotch
[00:14] <Tigga_> did you fix the motor glitch hallam?
[00:14] <hallam> and it keeps zapping the balloon-making-machine controller
[00:14] <hallam> I have some software mods that might mitigate it
[00:14] <fergusnoble> Tigga_: i dont want to know what you were doing the machine to get a shock there
[00:14] <Tigga_> standing by it!
[00:14] <hallam> but we really need a better enclosure I think, and maybe some changes to the circuit
[00:15] <hallam> I think optoisolation on the motor driver lines will probably do the trick
[00:15] <fergusnoble> hallam: im still thinking we should replace the entire drive section
[00:15] <hallam> do you mean including the motors, or on the controller?
[00:15] <fergusnoble> hallam: you really think so?
[00:15] <SpeedEvil> fergusnoble: I have an old renault Laguna I could donate.
[00:15] <hallam> it's my best guess as to the path of the nastiness
[00:15] <SpeedEvil> fergusnoble: if you want to go _much_ bigger :)
[00:15] <hallam> well we do need a chase vehicle ;) but I think that's a bit overkill for the weld-o-tron
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> hallam: alas, I need to install a working ECU - which I first have to solder...
[00:16] <hallam> fergusnoble: obviously static is getting into the PIC somehow
[00:16] <fergusnoble> hallam: i dont see thats consistent with the fact the pic was setting that pin
[00:16] <hallam> and severely confusing it
[00:16] <hallam> maybe also need opto on the switches
[00:16] <fergusnoble> right, your thinking along the motor lines into the h-bridge and then onto the control lines
[00:16] <hallam> yeah
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> hallam: zener diodes are great
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> scatter them everywhere.
[00:17] <hallam> hm, that's easier than opto, and we have a bunch left over from the fusor days
[00:17] <hallam> not that they helped with THAT e.m.i. problem
[00:17] <fergusnoble> could be, but could as easily be on the ground or power lines
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> And solid metal shields ++
[00:17] <hallam> well ground and power don't leave the box
[00:17] <hallam> oh wait
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> And feedthrough caps
[00:17] <hallam> ISWYM
[00:17] <hallam> bugger, separate PSU for the drive section? this sucks
[00:18] <hallam> I'm starting to think that hamsters on wheels and an elaborate gearbox might be better
[00:18] <fergusnoble> yeah im getting a horrible flashback to the fusor problems
[00:18] <fergusnoble> but we can zener the supply lines and then diode clamp everything to the supply
[00:19] <fergusnoble> should help a bit
[00:19] <hallam> yeah
[00:19] <hallam> good job I sorted and filed those zeners while tidying the ifm
[00:20] <hallam> was tempted to chuck them
[00:20] <fergusnoble> SteamAtom: can you tell me a bit about mark's envelopes?
[00:20] <fergusnoble> hallam: indeed
[00:20] <shellevil> note that a 5.1V zener is a bad plan on a 5V line - it'll draw almost its design wattage
[00:20] <fergusnoble> SteamAtom: i didnt realise he was making 'sausages' rather than shaped balloons
[00:21] <SteamAtom> mark claims to have some special source for low-porosity plastic
[00:21] <Laurenceb> never heard of that before
[00:21] <fergusnoble> interesting
[00:21] <SteamAtom> only our first from him was a sausage, honestly I think it is a more reliable design than the ones he followed with.
[00:22] <hallam> now is this one of your american sausages or a real "banger"? ;) ;)
[00:22] <SteamAtom> SNOX 2 - SNOX 5 were flat topped, and gathered at the bottom around a large cardboard ring, approx 8" in diameter
[00:22] <fergusnoble> ok, our machine is only capable of making sausages so its good to hear they work ok
[00:22] <SteamAtom> the vent tube was attached to the cardboard ring, as were 6 strings going to a center bridle
[00:23] <SteamAtom> the vent tube came out between two of the strings.
[00:23] <SteamAtom> I didn't like that bottom arrangement honestly, I think the strings have too much of a chance to foul the vent tube
[00:23] <fergusnoble> ok, interesting
[00:23] <SteamAtom> a hard metal or plastic Y I think would have been safer
[00:23] <fergusnoble> and how was the top of the snox1 sausage sealed?
[00:24] <SteamAtom> it was a 2-fold pillow, the top and one long side were heat sealed
[00:24] <SteamAtom> well, you might call that 1-fold
[00:25] <fergusnoble> ok, neat
[00:25] <SteamAtom> they were not lap sealed
[00:25] <fergusnoble> does he weld by hand?
[00:25] <SteamAtom> I think so, it looked like it was made with a long bar sealer, maybe .5m long
[00:25] <shellevil> tail /var/adm/me
[00:26] <shellevil> ls
[00:26] <shellevil> bugger
[00:27] <fergusnoble> ok, cool
[00:27] <hallam> fergusnoble: what's special about our plastic? Is it low-porosity too, or just non-UV-resistant?
[00:27] <SteamAtom> polyethylene doesn't really have UV trouble on the timescales of less than a week
[00:27] <fergusnoble> our plastic is linear LDPE with no uv staibilisers
[00:28] <hallam> yeah, but the UV stabilisers screw up the weld, which is why it's good to have plastic without them
[00:28] <fergusnoble> apparently removing the uv stabilisers makes the welding easier and stronger
[00:28] <SteamAtom> good to know
[00:29] <fergusnoble> anyway, we got it from the guy who made the QinetiQ 1 balloon so its hopefully right for the job
[00:29] <SteamAtom> I actually took a tour of Aerostar in Sulpher Springs TX last year,
[00:29] <fergusnoble> oh awesome
[00:29] <SteamAtom> they were really tight lipped once they realized what I already knew
[00:29] <SteamAtom> but did help out a little with my list of balloon science questions
[00:30] <fergusnoble> am i right in saying they slide a trolly around a long shaped table?
[00:30] <SteamAtom> yes
[00:30] <fergusnoble> cool
[00:30] <hallam> man I would really like a hangar that big
[00:30] <SteamAtom> and they inflate the two layers they are welding with air - to what purpose I'm not sure
[00:30] <SteamAtom> it was 800 feet long
[00:30] <SteamAtom> and about 30
[00:30] <SteamAtom> wide
[00:30] <hallam> did you know the two hangars at Ames are empty and unused? apparently it's an asbestos hazard or something
[00:30] <hallam> I'd take them
[00:30] <SteamAtom> gosh
[00:31] Action: hallam got to do a low approach on the runway between them
[00:32] <shellevil> hall: you fly GA?
[00:32] <fergusnoble> SteamAtom: managed to find a very short clip of the inside of their place from a video about NASA HAB stuff, they showed about a second of someone moving something along this long slightly curved table
[00:32] <SteamAtom> one thing they did answer, was that we should pay attention to the small variables in flight, zp balloons are in a very delicate equilibrium, and little things will add up, often the little things you assumed were ignorable
[00:32] <shellevil> what's it called in the UK
[00:32] <SteamAtom> nice fergusnoble, that was it
[00:32] <hallam> shellevil: when I can afford to, which is rarely
[00:33] <fergusnoble> SteamAtom: took a while to guess what they might be doing
[00:33] <SteamAtom> nice, I'm in the same situation hallam
[00:33] <Tigga_> what we need is one of those hangers they used to make blimps in....
[00:34] <hallam> Tigga_: that's what I'm talking about at Ames
[00:34] <hallam> well, airships, not blimps
[00:34] <SteamAtom> the aerostar guys indicated that the air mixing thorugh the vent on a small ZP would be one of those values to beware of
[00:34] <fergusnoble> SteamAtom: ok thats good to know
[00:34] <SteamAtom> yes, I've taken a break from ballooning for a year, but a better-sealing vent has plagued my thoughts for 6 months
[00:34] <Tigga_> that's why we've got a rocket in ours... :P
[00:35] <fergusnoble> Andy Elson recommended we use a very long sleeve from the vent made in such a way as it naturally closes
[00:35] <SteamAtom> yeah, fergusnoble, that's what I'm talking about, it wont
[00:35] <fergusnoble> like some layflat tubing some meters long
[00:35] <fergusnoble> ok
[00:36] <SteamAtom> we flew that on all our flights, and the problem is scale, that vent is great for a million cubic foot design, when mixing a few hundred cubic ft per day of air in won't matter
[00:37] <SteamAtom> but on a SNOX 2 flight, we saw one of our ZP balloons drift back to earth
[00:37] <fergusnoble> ok thats really useful, didnt think that might be such a problem
[00:37] <SteamAtom> and the vent stayed wide agape as helium was escaping out a hole in the top
[00:37] <shellevil> condom
[00:38] <shellevil> with the tip cut off
[00:38] <shellevil> actually - that's probably too rigid
[00:39] <fergusnoble> SteamAtom: did you ever have problems with the vent being too small and not allowing the helium to vent fast enough, causing the envelope to rip?
[00:39] <SteamAtom> the problem is that the vent has two purposes - to release a massive burst of helium upon reaching float, and then for the rest of the time, keep all the air out.
[00:39] <fergusnoble> we were warned about that but i cant see it being that bad
[00:39] <SteamAtom> yep
[00:39] <SteamAtom> on our Icarus series pre-snox, we lost many balloons that way
[00:39] <SteamAtom> even old SNOX V went that way
[00:39] <hallam> is some closable valve a good / crazy idea?
[00:40] <hallam> what about a standard tube-type, with a string that can be pulled tight around it
[00:40] <SteamAtom> I think the valve has to be better made somehow.
[00:40] <SteamAtom> than the PE tube alone
[00:41] <Laurenceb> hmf my radio works fine
[00:41] <Laurenceb> can work it out :-/
[00:41] <shellevil> PE tube, couple of hinged foam bars
[00:42] <Laurenceb> worked fine before launch, works fine now
[00:42] <Laurenceb> didnt work in the air
[00:42] <shellevil> or one bar and fixed
[00:42] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: with my domino failing i got to thinking
[00:42] Action: shellevil passes Laurenceb a catapult
[00:42] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: mfsk modes are sensitive to spacing
[00:42] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:42] <Laurenceb> mfsk less so
[00:42] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: do you think along with drift the temp might also change spacing?
[00:42] <SteamAtom> yeah, I thought maybe 4 hinged bars with magnets on them in a square end on the PE tube, so they can blow wide open, but snap shut
[00:43] <Laurenceb> fergus: no, it wasnt modulating properly
[00:43] <Laurenceb> it was sending all 0x00 or 0x0F
[00:43] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: ok
[00:43] <SteamAtom> you might try a crystal oven for all the radio tx circuits to eliminate cold effects
[00:43] <Laurenceb> maybe some sort of glitch....
[00:43] <Laurenceb> e.g. when it was turned on
[00:43] <shellevil> SteamAtom: really need some pressure sensor or inflation sensor in the envelope
[00:44] <Laurenceb> I'm going to add something to periodically reset the radio, or test its working
[00:44] <fergusnoble> shellevil: i would doubt you would see a pressure change?
[00:44] <Laurenceb> e.g. some test command string
[00:44] <Laurenceb> and the radio replies with on ok string
[00:44] <shellevil> fergusnoble: if it's sensitive enough
[00:44] <SteamAtom> you probably wouldn't see it until it was too late, unless you have a very quick acting valve
[00:45] <shellevil> fergusnoble: mPa I suppose
[00:45] <fergusnoble> shellevil: an SCP1000 can measure an 80cm column of air so that should be usable
[00:46] <SteamAtom> if you had some sort of big lightly springed flapper valve that you could release the latch on
[00:46] <hallam> how about a strain gauge in the envelope?
[00:46] <fergusnoble> hallam: the noise from it just flapping around might make that difficult?
[00:47] <hallam> maybe, might be filterable
[00:47] <fergusnoble> yeah
[00:47] Action: shellevil beroots.
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[00:48] <SteamAtom> well, I'm gonna head to bed fellow aviators
[00:48] <SteamAtom> have a good night.
[00:48] <fergusnoble> goodnight
[00:48] <fergusnoble> thanks for the info
[00:49] <hallam> night night
[00:50] <Laurenceb> cya
[00:50] <SteamAtom> you're welcome, I hope to be around now and then.
[00:50] <SteamAtom> ttyl
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[00:50] <Laurenceb> argggg
[00:50] <Laurenceb> the radio works
[00:50] <Laurenceb> this is not good :p
[00:51] <hallam> Laurenceb: try leaving it on for a while
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[00:51] <hallam> in the freezer
[00:51] <Laurenceb> hmm it was very soon after launch
[00:51] <Laurenceb> maybe shake it
[00:52] <Laurenceb> woops
[00:52] <Laurenceb> just ripped it out of the socket
[00:52] <Laurenceb> hope its ok
[00:54] <Laurenceb> hmm seems to be fine with vibration
[00:55] <Laurenceb> maybe the socket was suffering - it was on a molex
[00:56] <Laurenceb> and the main board wasnt glued in, so may have vibrated a bit
[00:56] <Laurenceb> it was shaking/spinning very violently
[01:08] <natrium_> use the solder, luke
[01:08] <Laurenceb> I want it to be removable
[01:09] <natrium_> removable == less reliable
[01:10] <Laurenceb> how do I convert a number to string in python?
[01:10] <natrium_> never used python, sorry
[01:11] <Laurenceb> just mucking about with a radio test script...
[01:11] <Laurenceb> oh str doh
[01:17] <Tigga_> good olde python
[01:17] <Tigga_> never lets you down
[01:17] <Tigga_> re: balloon temp
[01:17] <Tigga_> I think it makes more of a difference with ZP than with latex
[01:19] <hallam> were your calcs for latex?
[01:19] <Tigga_> not done any... just thought about it
[01:19] <Tigga_> might do calcs tomorrow when not sleepy
[01:19] <hallam> yeah
[01:19] <Tigga_> but latex is hard
[01:19] Action: hallam should have taken a cue from the American going to bed
[01:19] <Tigga_> 'cos you get varying pressure, volume, and temperature
[01:19] <gordonjcp> but it's only 1:20am
[01:20] <Tigga_> and there is a relationship between pressure and volume... but it's funky
[01:26] <Laurenceb> hmf
[01:26] <Laurenceb> seems to be working
[01:26] <Laurenceb> but occasionally there will be a long pause....
[01:27] <Laurenceb> it never loses any packets suring the pause... got to be something to do with timing and fifo buffers....
[01:28] <Laurenceb> I'm getting about 40% packet loss tho
[01:28] <Laurenceb> damn sound card on here
[01:29] <Laurenceb> theres less interharmonic distortion around 1.8KHz but its a pain to tune
[01:31] <Laurenceb> tempting to just forget it and get a CC1100 module
[01:32] <shellevil> or two
[01:33] <Laurenceb> ha
[01:33] <Laurenceb> oh well thats all I can do...
[01:33] <Laurenceb> probably 90% packets ok if I tune it to around 1.8KHz
[01:34] <Laurenceb> all very odd... I'll have to do something to at least reset the radio
[01:35] <Laurenceb> theres just a CTS line back to the flight computer, so maybe it could toggle the CTS line in response to a test command
[01:38] <Laurenceb> not sure if this is actually useful :-/
[01:39] <Laurenceb> its pretty hard ot test that its actually working 100%
[01:39] <hallam> reset every so often just in case
[01:39] <hallam> goodnight
[01:39] <Laurenceb> yeah
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[01:39] <Laurenceb> cya
[01:42] <Laurenceb> hmm have a reset triggered from within the fifo isr on the radio by a special command, and if the flight computer doesnt detect a CTS toggle indicating a reset, send no data until CTS toggles
[01:42] <Laurenceb> - the watchdog on the radio will timeout with no incoming data
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[06:50] <jcoxon> morning all
[06:58] <jcoxon> hey natrium_
[06:58] <natrium_> hi
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[06:59] <jcoxon> did you see the conversation with SteamAtom last night?
[07:00] <natrium_> yep
[07:00] <jcoxon> okay cool
[07:00] <jcoxon> rob and i worked on the client/listener server
[07:00] <jcoxon> thats coming along as well
[07:00] <jcoxon> and progress on the ham licence?
[07:01] <jcoxon> and also how is sYx66 doing with getting permission?
[07:01] <natrium_> i didn't email the hams yet :S
[07:01] <natrium_> not sure what the progress on permission is
[07:01] <DRebellion> Anybody got suggestions for a cheap phone for GSM SMS use?
[07:01] <natrium_> but we definitely need one
[07:01] <DRebellion> (AT commands ofc)
[07:02] <natrium_> jcoxon, http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/PART6/602.htm#602_42
[07:02] <natrium_> "602.42 No person shall release an unoccupied free balloon having a gas-carrying capacity of more than 115 cubic feet (3.256 m3) except in accordance with an authorization issued by the Minister pursuant to section 602.44."
[07:02] <jcoxon> oh dear
[07:02] <natrium_> so since it's 300 cu ft, we need one
[07:03] <jcoxon> DRebellion, http://code.google.com/p/sserial2mobile/wiki/MotorolaC168i
[07:03] <natrium_> "602.44 The Minister may issue an authorization referred to in section 602.42 or 602.43 where the release of the balloon or the launch of the rocket is in the public interest and is not likely to affect aviation safety."
[07:03] <jcoxon> natrium_, is getting that permission hard? i guess it is
[07:03] <DRebellion> jcoxon, perfect¬
[07:03] <DRebellion> !
[07:03] <natrium_> dunno, we will see
[07:03] <natrium_> it's hard enough to get a response, apparently
[07:04] <jcoxon> hmmmmmm
[07:04] <natrium_> perhaps i should try too?
[07:04] <natrium_> i will check with syx66 tomorrow
[07:04] <jcoxon> might be worth it
[07:05] <jcoxon> DRebellion, that looks a bit like a US phone though
[07:05] <jcoxon> might not be as perfect
[07:05] <jcoxon> natrium_, other options? launch in the US?
[07:05] <natrium_> yes, US or neutral waters :)
[07:06] <DRebellion> jcoxon, well it is a library so we can abstract from the actual commands a bit, which could be nice - even for reference alone
[07:06] <natrium_> jcoxon, might be a good idea to ask dan what's involved to launch from US when he pops into the channel again
[07:06] <jcoxon> i was more linking it for the phone
[07:06] <jcoxon> he said we could email him
[07:06] <natrium_> yeah, or that
[07:07] <natrium_> DRebellion, could always pull a Laurenceb
[07:07] <DRebellion> natrium_, oh?
[07:07] <natrium_> and solder to buttons
[07:07] <natrium_> to send sms by simulating presses
[07:07] <natrium_> :P
[07:07] <DRebellion> hehe
[07:09] <DRebellion> Any phones that are known to withstand the cold?
[07:09] <jcoxon> they'll be fine
[07:09] <natrium_> it's not like you need them working at altitude anyway
[07:10] <DRebellion> natrium_, true, just dont' want any permanent effects. I guess it'll be ok then.
[07:10] <jcoxon> and your payload should be nicely insulated
[07:11] <natrium_> heat is much more dangerous to electronics than cold :P
[07:11] <jcoxon> DRebellion, use this as a guide list http://wiki.gnokii.org/index.php/Config
[07:11] <jcoxon> each phone says whether it uses AT
[07:11] <DRebellion> jcoxon, guess we've got a lot of choice then : )
[07:12] <jcoxon> no, not all do AT
[07:12] <jcoxon> you'll have to look individually
[07:14] <jcoxon> natrium_, its a lot of admin isn't it
[07:15] <natrium_> that's why i need to poke syx66 to do it :D
[07:17] <jcoxon> natrium_, that said if we were to get permission from the minister we would be home and dry
[07:17] <jcoxon> they really couldn't complain after that
[07:18] <natrium_> http://www.tc.gc.ca/minister/menu.htm
[07:18] <natrium_> ^ that's him
[07:18] <natrium_> although our contact is a different person, of course
[07:18] <jcoxon> :-D
[07:18] <natrium_> his aides & stuff...
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[07:19] <jcoxon> yeah just keep pestering i guess until you find a contact that is interested in the whole concept
[07:31] <jcoxon> DRebellion, i'd check out the really cheap pay as you go phones, if you can find one with at commands you are on to a winner
[07:31] <jcoxon> or if not check out ebay for old phones
[07:43] <jcoxon> such a cool flight: http://spacenear.us/gfs/2009-03-24-3.png
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[08:27] <mc-> morning jc, thanks for the mail.
[08:29] <jcoxon> np
[08:32] <jcoxon> mc-, just got your reply, unfortuantely in canada the limit is balloon size
[08:33] <jcoxon> so to launch we need permission from the transport minister / department
[08:35] <mc-> what is the max size permitted without permission?
[08:35] <jcoxon> http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/PART6/602.htm#602_42
[08:35] <jcoxon> 115 cubic feet (3.256 m3)
[08:40] <mc-> I guess that won't carry much weight
[08:40] <mc-> If we can cross the Atlantic, the next ocean is the Pacific...
[08:41] <jcoxon> hehe but of course
[08:41] <jcoxon> then all the way round
[08:41] <mc-> Japanese have already crossed that with balloons in WW2.
[08:41] <jcoxon> indeed they had
[08:41] <jcoxon> they went for the scattergun approach
[08:42] <mc-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_balloon
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[11:16] <jcoxon> how cool is this: http://www.taylor.edu/academics/acaddepts/physics/halo.shtml
[11:17] <jcoxon> their HALO 2 balloon network is going to have 15 balloons all networked
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> high altitude long-duration drift platforms with minimal manouevering capability is an interesting possible future
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> with the ability to guide to precise spots for recovery, and shipment to parts of the world where there are currently few balloons aloft
[11:50] <SpeedEvil> expensive - yes.
[11:50] <SpeedEvil> But - compared to an orbiting net of a few dozen satellites - not so much.
[11:50] <jcoxon> lots of thought has gone into having it as an emergency comms system
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> emergency? point-point lasers
[11:51] <jcoxon> you have a natural disaster, balloon is launched - get a massive coverage
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> massive bandwidth
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> a plurality of spot-beam wifi ants
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> ...
[11:52] <jcoxon> just got to keep the damn thing in one place :-D
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> or have enough of them :)
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> 10^6 balloons at a thousand per is only a billion.
[11:52] <jcoxon> yeah
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> Interesting.
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> He created the technology necessary to mass-produce satellites on a gimbal, taking weeks instead of months or years and at a record low construction cost of only US$5 million per satellite.
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> of iridium
[12:00] <jcoxon> bbl
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[12:59] <Laurenceb> hello
[13:00] <Laurenceb> edmoore: any chance you could send me that launch video/put it on vimeo ?
[13:12] <Laurenceb> postponing the trans?! this sounds bad
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[14:35] <edmoore> Laurenceb: will do
[14:36] <edmoore> gimme a day or two, remind me if I haven't
[14:36] <edmoore> Laurenceb: why postponing trans?
[14:36] <Laurenceb> jcoxon and natrium42 say theres too much work to deo before we're happy
[14:37] <Laurenceb> apparently that means we miss the good jet stream
[14:37] <Laurenceb> I'm not convinced
[14:37] <Laurenceb> the jet stream reality and theory are very different
[14:41] <Laurenceb> the average jet stream speeds may decrease over summer, but we can still select good times to launch
[14:46] <edmoore> sure - i guess it's just a trend thing
[14:46] <Laurenceb> I dont see why we have to wait until next year
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[16:08] <jcoxon> afternoon all
[16:09] <Laurenceb> hi
[16:09] <Laurenceb> the average jet stream speeds may decrease over summer, but we can still select good times to launch
[16:09] <Laurenceb> its only a trend
[16:10] <jcoxon> indeed it is a trend
[16:10] <jcoxon> but they still aren't as good
[16:11] <jcoxon> the concept though is not that we are running out of season - more that we have so many more obstacles to over come
[16:11] <jcoxon> such as permission and radio licences
[16:11] <jcoxon> which will take time
[16:11] <jcoxon> sure we could launch in the summer at trans-a but how about instead we launch a long endurance flight when there is very little jetstream
[16:12] <jcoxon> we quite possibly recover it and be able to get loads of data from it
[16:12] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:12] <Laurenceb> I seriously think we should go for stratospheric cruise
[16:12] <jcoxon> and i'm convinced that this ballast system needs some proper testing
[16:12] <Laurenceb> if its done properly theres no difficulty in flying for a week or two
[16:13] <Laurenceb> you only need to drop ~15%
[16:13] <Laurenceb> max
[16:14] <jcoxon> so i wouldn't see it as a postponment, more as a call for more testing and test flights
[16:15] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, please though reply with your concerns and ideas - not all will check the logs
[16:15] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:15] <Laurenceb> SPOT is downlink only right?
[16:15] <jcoxon> yeah its simplex
[16:16] <Laurenceb> hmm now about we try a CC1100 module on there
[16:16] <Laurenceb> - 434 MHz
[16:17] <jcoxon> whats the advantage of them?
[16:17] <Laurenceb> you can have a two way datalink at shorter ranges
[16:18] <Laurenceb> and its ok over the UK
[16:18] <Laurenceb> although only ~500Km range
[16:24] <jcoxon> you should fly a mission to test it
[16:29] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:31] <jcoxon> i'm going to look into a latex float to test ballast
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[16:37] <aLeXBrEtOn> hi all
[16:38] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, !
[16:38] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, i talked to dr akbarian after school
[16:38] <aLeXBrEtOn> orly?
[16:38] <aLeXBrEtOn> did you go see him?
[16:38] <aLeXBrEtOn> or did he see you?
[16:38] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, he wants us to make a formal report and then escalate (possibly to the head) for funding
[16:38] <DRebellion> : )
[16:38] <DRebellion> he saw me
[16:38] <aLeXBrEtOn> mmmm
[16:38] <aLeXBrEtOn> Formal report?
[16:38] <aLeXBrEtOn> so no ORs?
[16:38] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, I guess we won't need them
[16:38] <aLeXBrEtOn> OK I'll take care of it ;)
[16:39] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, he wants us to talk to the physics department tomorrow
[16:39] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, leave it yet
[16:39] <aLeXBrEtOn> mm ok
[16:39] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, need to know exactly what is required
[16:39] <aLeXBrEtOn> OK
[16:39] <aLeXBrEtOn> which arduino are we using?
[16:39] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, the deumolivo or w/e it's called
[16:39] <DRebellion> the standard one
[16:39] <aLeXBrEtOn> daniel's?
[16:39] <aLeXBrEtOn> or we buy a new one?
[16:40] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, of course, if we get funding from the school itself things may change (higher budget here we come; ) )
[16:40] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, daniel's not going to sacrifice his arduino
[16:40] <aLeXBrEtOn> ok
[16:40] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, anyway, let's stop spamming #highaltitude and go to #rsha ; )
[16:40] <Laurenceb> vIaGa#
[16:41] <Laurenceb> V1aGaRa
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[16:45] <jcoxon> DRebellion, aLeXBrEtOn hey just want to give you a heads up concerning voltages
[16:45] <DRebellion> jcoxon, oh?
[16:45] <jcoxon> the arduino you are getting is 5v
[16:45] <jcoxon> and many periperhals are 3.3v
[16:45] <jcoxon> such as the lassen and also the radio
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[16:46] <jcoxon> its okay, but you'll need to change the voltages
[16:46] <DRebellion> jcoxon, perhaps tell DanielRichman that. He's the electronics dude
[16:46] <jcoxon> or look into getting a 3.3v arduino and then you don't need to worry
[16:46] <DanielRichman> Dude?
[16:47] <DanielRichman> The diecimellia gives out a regulated 3.3v aswell as a 5v I think
[16:47] <jcoxon> yeah but are the pins 3.3v as well?
[16:47] <DanielRichman> Ah, fair enough
[16:47] <jcoxon> you don't really want you tx line to be 5v into a 3.3v device
[16:48] <Laurenceb> use resistor deivders
[16:48] <Laurenceb> or better zener diodes
[16:48] <jcoxon> or go for a 3.3v arduino
[16:48] <Laurenceb> yeah, or just fit a different v reg
[16:48] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, Potential devidors?
[16:48] <DanielRichman> **spelling
[16:48] <Laurenceb> theres a million ways to do it
[16:48] <Laurenceb> one option yes
[16:49] <jcoxon> i was just pointing it out - you can avoid quite a bit of hassle in advance
[16:50] <Laurenceb> 3.3v into 5v device is fine
[16:50] <DanielRichman> If its only the GPS that needs the 3.3v... The SD card/SPI might require 5v, as its designed to be a semi-duemilanove shield
[16:50] <DRebellion> jcoxon, thanks for the heads up
[16:50] <jcoxon> np
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[16:52] <Laurenceb> hi hallam
[16:52] <hallam> hey
[16:53] <Laurenceb> ever come across MC-901 coax connectors?
[16:55] <hallam> never heard of
[16:59] <hallam> google suggests it's a dielectric rather than a connector
[16:59] <hallam> back in a bit
[16:59] Nick change: hallam -> hallam|away
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[17:09] <DRebellion> the ukhas wiki recommends spherachutes as a parachute supplier, but they're us based?
[17:09] <DRebellion> Anybody got a recommendation for a uk supplier?
[17:20] <Laurenceb> hallam: any idea if you'll have the SE4120 running enough to get some data yet?
[17:22] <Laurenceb> be interesting to investigate the chip ant
[17:24] <DanielRichman> Does anyone have any suggested arduino - friendly temperature sensors?
[17:25] <DRebellion> DS18S20?
[17:26] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, Mar 23 18:09:42 <hallam> as for a temperature sensor, the DS18S20 is nice, and there are a ton of others
[17:26] <DRebellion> it looks ok to me
[17:26] <DRebellion> by definition requires only one data line (and ground) for communication with a central microprocessor
[17:26] <DRebellion> -55°C to +125°C and is accurate to ±0.5°C over the range of -10°C to +85°C
[17:27] <DRebellion> DS18S20 can derive power directly from the data line
[17:27] <DRebellion> Each DS18S20 has a unique 64-bit serial code, which allows multiple DS18S20s to function on the same 1-Wire bus.
[17:27] <DanielRichman> Reading it now
[17:27] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, and it's only two dollars
[17:27] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, oh, wait. It says "$2.09 @ 1k". Does that mean we have to order a thousand? : P
[17:28] <aLeXBrEtOn> guys, are the chutes at random aerospace good?
[17:29] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, we can get a single one for £4 inc. VAT http://www.quasarelectronics.com/3145-ds18s20-computer-serial-temperature-data-logger.htm
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[17:33] <Laurenceb> http://www.mtcnet.net/~henryvm/4AvrOS/csrtos.html
[17:35] <edmoore> Laurenceb: have you bumped into Martin Sweeting?
[17:35] <Laurenceb> once or twice, why?
[17:35] <edmoore> I think I might be meeting him on Monday/Sunday.
[17:35] <Laurenceb> neat
[17:35] <Laurenceb> how come?
[17:36] <edmoore> through Howard Long, G6LVB
[17:36] <edmoore> who is doing an ISS radio linkup with the school that we did the teds with
[17:36] <Laurenceb> ah neat
[17:38] Action: SpeedEvil needs to get his ISS video link setup.
[17:38] <SpeedEvil> (green laser pointer, tripod, external cameras on ISS -> NASATV
[17:38] <SpeedEvil> The numbers work quite well - if it's night
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[17:42] <natrium_> rofl
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[17:51] <edmoore> fergusnoble: when is you back up, do you know?
[17:51] <edmoore> just OOI
[17:51] <fergusnoble> beginning of term
[17:51] <edmoore> ok cool
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[17:53] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[17:54] <edmoore> right bbl
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[18:00] Nick change: hallam|away -> hallam
[18:00] <hallam> DRebellion: Maxim will give you free samples of almost anything on their website
[18:01] <hallam> you don't even have to pay delivery
[18:01] <SpeedEvil> Note however, that samples may not be free in many senses.
[18:01] <SpeedEvil> If you need the second one, for example, in 6 months time, and can't get it.
[18:01] <DRebellion> hallam, wow
[18:01] <DRebellion> hallam, do we have to pretend we're contemplating a big order?
[18:02] <hallam> not really, they don't mind hobbyists, particularly students, since it gets you experienced using their products
[18:02] <DRebellion> hallam, big thanks for the heads up. Will definantly try that
[18:02] <hallam> just use a bit of common sense/judgement when filling in the form
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> and try to avoid shopping sprees.
[18:02] <hallam> and don't try for more than about 3 of each part per order
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> That just leads to drawers full of stuff you throw away in 10 years.
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[18:03] <SpeedEvil> And work out some way of organising your parts, and logging what you have.
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> otherwise you end up re-sampling parts you already have
[18:03] <DRebellion> SpeedEvil, what do you mean by your last comment?
[18:03] <aLeXBrEtOn> great
[18:03] <aLeXBrEtOn> BTW guys
[18:03] <hallam> aLeXBrEtOn: I can't speak specifically about the parachutes, but Random is run by Steve (G8KHW on this channel) and I'm sure he only stocks quality stuff - good prices, too
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> which last comment?
[18:03] <aLeXBrEtOn> found a place where we can loan a receiver
[18:04] <DRebellion> SpeedEvil, about organising and not resampling
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> :)
[18:04] <aLeXBrEtOn> local amateur radio club
[18:04] <hallam> oh well done
[18:04] <aLeXBrEtOn> I'm becoming a member as we speak ;-)
[18:04] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, we might as well all get HAM licenses
[18:04] <hallam> just make sure it supports upper sideband or lower sideband on the 70cm band
[18:04] <aLeXBrEtOn> no
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> DRebellion: if you already have a chip, but it's 'somewhere' - or you've forgotten that you sampled it.
[18:04] <DanielRichman> DRebellion, beat me to mentioning that
[18:04] <aLeXBrEtOn> hang on guys
[18:04] <DRebellion> SpeedEvil, ah right.
[18:04] <aLeXBrEtOn> http://www.radarc.org/Files/RADARC%20Equipment%20%20Inventory%20November%202007.pdf
[18:04] <hallam> amateur licences are fun and useful but they do cost money (and time)
[18:04] <aLeXBrEtOn> that's a list of their equipment
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> DRebellion: works for actual paid orders too :)
[18:05] <DRebellion> I don't think the club would loan us free equipment if we weren't qualified to use it properly
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> hallam: total cost ?
[18:05] <aLeXBrEtOn> there must be something we can use, can someone quickly check?
[18:05] <aLeXBrEtOn> not an expert on receivers
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> hallam: I'm pondering HF trancievers on ebay and other places
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> aLeXBrEtOn: you don't need qualified to use a reciever
[18:06] <SpeedEvil> aLeXBrEtOn: only that you won't break crap on it.
[18:06] <hallam> DRebellion: you should be fine to borrow RX equipment
[18:06] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[18:06] <hallam> SpeedEvil: something like 50 GBP I think to get all the way to Full
[18:06] <aLeXBrEtOn> can you guys check the list?
[18:06] <SpeedEvil> also - poke jcoxon next time he's around - and see if he'll setup his reciever on VNC, so you can play a little bit
[18:06] <aLeXBrEtOn> just to be sure
[18:06] <aLeXBrEtOn> Realistic Pro-2042 am/fm scanner 25-2300MHz.
[18:06] <aLeXBrEtOn> that looks like it would work^^
[18:07] <hallam> aLeXBrEtOn: can you find a link to the specificatinos for that?
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> am/fm != ssb
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> does it specifically say ssb?
[18:07] <hallam> my google is being rubbish today
[18:07] <DRebellion> SpeedEvil, http://www.radarc.org/Files/RADARC%20Equipment%20%20Inventory%20November%202007.pdf that's thei list
[18:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> no
[18:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> just run through the list
[18:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> not that much stuff
[18:08] <hallam> http://support.radioshack.com/support_electronics/doc31/31528.htm from this it doesn't look like it does SSB
[18:09] <jcoxon> hey all
[18:09] <hallam> the FT221R does SSB but not in the 70cm band
[18:09] <hallam> hi jcoxon
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[18:09] <jcoxon> you can borrow my FT-790r if you want
[18:09] <jcoxon> at the moment jatkins has it but i think he has got his radio working
[18:10] <aLeXBrEtOn> FT221R 2M multimode Transceiver (with G0LHZ)
[18:10] <aLeXBrEtOn> how about one of those?^^
[18:10] <jcoxon> its 2M
[18:10] <jcoxon> you want 70cm
[18:10] <jcoxon> aLeXBrEtOn, DRebellion really you can borrow my spare receiver
[18:10] <jcoxon> its the best for teh job
[18:11] <edmoore> frequency = velocity / wavelength
[18:11] <DRebellion> BTW #ha, we can't launch from our school because of heathrow air traffic. So we'll probably launch from Cambridge Uni if there's free helium? You mentioned something about that hallam?
[18:11] <DRebellion> jcoxon, that would be terrific!
[18:11] <DRebellion> jcoxon, where are you located?
[18:11] Laurenceb (n=laurence@dyres221-35.surrey.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[18:11] <jcoxon> i'm in london though the receiver is at present in hampshire
[18:11] <Laurenceb> yo
[18:11] <aLeXBrEtOn> great
[18:12] <jcoxon> i'm sure it can be sent to you
[18:12] <aLeXBrEtOn> Berkshire
[18:12] <aLeXBrEtOn> want my address?
[18:12] <jcoxon> you won't need it immediately as you've got to order things
[18:12] <aLeXBrEtOn> yeah sure
[18:12] <DRebellion> jcoxon, thanks a bunch.
[18:12] <aLeXBrEtOn> but just when you're ready
[18:12] <jcoxon> i'll email josh who has it and see how its going
[18:12] <jcoxon> but i seem to remember he had made lots of progress with his radio
[18:12] <hallam> DRebellion: CUSF gets free helium from our sponsors. As long as your launch date is convenient enough to our team, you can probably use our launch site and helium - I'll have to check with the rest of the team to be sure, but I'd say the odds are good
[18:12] <DRebellion> jcoxon, is it hard to operate? We collectively have zero experience with radio
[18:13] <DRebellion> hallam, i'm sure we can be very flexible
[18:13] <jcoxon> no its not too difficult
[18:13] <jcoxon> it doesn't have the mic with it so that you can't transmit but receiving isn't too hard
[18:13] <DRebellion> Apparently our physics department would have been able to help, if radio hadn't been dropped from the curriculum 30 years ago : D
[18:13] <jcoxon> its important that you do some research into radio and such as it'll make solving the problems you encounter a lot easier
[18:14] <jcoxon> the FT-790r is old but perfect for the job
[18:14] <Laurenceb> stupid dummed down physics curriculum
[18:14] <aLeXBrEtOn> yeah, the stuff we learn now is boooring as hell ;-)
[18:14] <aLeXBrEtOn> spent 2 weeks on S=D/T
[18:14] <DRebellion> hehe
[18:14] <DRebellion> good times
[18:15] <jcoxon> but for you proposal you are welcome to borrow it in the future
[18:15] <aLeXBrEtOn> great
[18:15] <aLeXBrEtOn> hmm DRebellion, shall I order the balloon?
[18:15] <aLeXBrEtOn> + GPS?
[18:15] <aLeXBrEtOn> we are sure on those 2 components
[18:15] <Laurenceb> diamond point for the gps?
[18:15] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, no!
[18:15] <aLeXBrEtOn> yep
[18:15] <aLeXBrEtOn> why?
[18:15] <hallam> which balloon and GPS are you thinking of?
[18:16] <DRebellion> Laurenceb, http://www.dpieshop.com/trimble-lassen-iq-12-channel-gps-module-p-237.html
[18:16] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:16] <DanielRichman> hallam, http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/projects:alien
[18:16] <aLeXBrEtOn> Kaymont 1200g
[18:16] <DRebellion> Yeah, it would be great if #ha could check the hardware?
[18:16] <jcoxon> guys , its more sensible to work on individual components
[18:16] <hallam> that's an unfortunate domain name for diamond point
[18:16] <jcoxon> don't get the balloon - thats for later
[18:16] <DanielRichman> DRebellion, aLeXBrEtOn, I suggest starting with GPS... then moving onto SD, then Radio
[18:16] <jcoxon> get the flight computer arduino and say the gps and get that working
[18:16] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, yeah
[18:16] <DRebellion> GSM as well
[18:17] <jcoxon> you might want to change the balloon at a later date
[18:17] <DRebellion> I've got a relatively recent Sony Ericsson, not sure about the model number (have to find the phone ; ) )
[18:17] <DanielRichman> DRebellion, that can be done at any time. And if these temp sensors arrive super slow, we may need to do them when they arrive
[18:17] <Laurenceb> mmm pie
[18:17] <DanielRichman> but aLeXBrEtOn, if you have a spesific desire to buy some stuff, grab a GPS. ONLY!
[18:17] <DRebellion> Ericssons are good for gsm?
[18:17] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, nah
[18:17] <Laurenceb> sony ericssons tend to work well
[18:17] <DRebellion> don't buy anything yet
[18:17] <aLeXBrEtOn> no, I'm fine ;-)
[18:17] <Laurenceb> in my experience
[18:17] <aLeXBrEtOn> we need the money
[18:17] <DRebellion> Laurenceb, great!
[18:17] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, exactly
[18:18] <DanielRichman> DRebellion, found any docs on the AT protocol?
[18:18] <hallam> Steve can ship you the balloon on pretty short notice, there's no need to buy it now
[18:18] <Laurenceb> the AT commands can be a bit of a pain - I think it breaks the spec slightly
[18:18] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, internets are overflowing
[18:18] <DRebellion> Laurenceb, =/
[18:18] <Laurenceb> but ericssons use AT commands
[18:18] <jcoxon> ping natrium_
[18:18] <hallam> which antenna were you planning to use with the Lassen?
[18:18] <DRebellion> Laurenceb, it's better than fbus on my nokia 3220
[18:18] <Laurenceb> yeah by far
[18:18] <DRebellion> hallam, good question. We have no idea about antennas./
[18:18] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, do you think we will be able to run AT command off the Arduino's Software Serial?
[18:18] <Laurenceb> id use an ericsson
[18:18] <DanielRichman> We'll be using the Hardware serial for the GPS
[18:18] <Laurenceb> yep
[18:18] <Laurenceb> oh
[18:19] <Laurenceb> well you only need to tx
[18:19] <Laurenceb> so rx is gps, tx phone
[18:19] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, Laurenceb, sounds good : )
[18:19] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, need to tx to the GPS too
[18:19] <DanielRichman> And the baudrates may be different
[18:19] <hallam> http://www.dpieshop.com/trimble-miniature-33v-unpackaged-gps-antenna-hfl-connector-5785900-replacement-p-234.html this is probably a good ant
[18:19] <Laurenceb> how come?
[18:19] <hallam> it's designed for use with the Lassen
[18:19] <Laurenceb> why do you need to talk to the gps
[18:20] <DRebellion> hallam, we'll go with that suggestion then
[18:20] <aLeXBrEtOn> Important - this antenna requires a ground plane in order to work - it will not work properly without one
[18:20] <aLeXBrEtOn> quote from site
[18:20] <hallam> DanielRichman: it's usually easier not to try to talk to the GPS, it's rare that you actually need to
[18:20] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, was trawling some 268 pages of manual, but I *think* there was some, at least initialising tx involved
[18:20] <hallam> aLeXBrEtOn: that just means a piece of metal
[18:20] <DRebellion> hallam, "this antenna requires a ground plane in order to work - it will not work properly without one. Contact us for further guidance if required." ?
[18:20] <Laurenceb> no
[18:20] <Laurenceb> you dont need to tx for it to work
[18:20] <Laurenceb> thats not true either
[18:20] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, Just to set it up on the ground? What if power is lost... does it require reinitilisation?
[18:20] <Laurenceb> it works fine with no ground plane
[18:21] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, if power is lost, it's not magically going to come back
[18:21] <Laurenceb> no it boots to 4800 nmea, 9600 tsip
[18:21] <hallam> you only need to send it init stuff if you want it to do something unusual
[18:21] <hallam> it's easiest just to leave it with the default power-on settings
[18:21] <DanielRichman> Ah, ok
[18:21] <Laurenceb> brb
[18:22] <DanielRichman> Just shove the pullups on to select a protocol and then rx to your heart's content?
[18:22] <hallam> yeah I'm not sure you even need the pullups
[18:22] <hallam> maybe on its RX pins
[18:22] <hallam> it has two TX pins
[18:22] <hallam> by default it outputs 4800 NMEA on one, 9600 TSIP on the other
[18:22] <DRebellion> hallam, what sort of format does it Tx in?
[18:23] <DRebellion> I guess there's some sort of standard?
[18:23] <hallam> as I said, NMEA and TSIP
[18:23] <DanielRichman> DRebellion, pay attention ;)
[18:23] <hallam> NMEA is very much the industry standard
[18:23] <hallam> almost all GPSes output NMEA 4800 by default
[18:23] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, i am foo
[18:23] <DRebellion> hallam, is that simple to parse by hand
[18:23] <DRebellion> ?
[18:23] <hallam> TSIP gives you a bit more information, and depending on your UART configuration the 9600bps might be more useful for you
[18:24] <hallam> NMEA is human-readable
[18:24] <hallam> TSIP is binary, which may actually make it easier to parse by computer
[18:24] <DRebellion> hallam, what information gap is there?
[18:24] <hallam> nothing essential for balloon recovery
[18:24] <hallam> stuff like true three-dimensional velocity, satellite signal strengths, geoid height, carrier phase measurements.. various stuff
[18:25] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, what do you think? I'd say go for NMEA
[18:25] <hallam> NMEA is probably easiest
[18:25] <DRebellion> hallam, what about GPS-over-radio? Is there a standard format?
[18:25] <hallam> for your first flight
[18:25] <hallam> there's a UKHAS standard format
[18:25] <DanielRichman> DRebellion, morse code :)
[18:25] <hallam> but to use it, you'll have to parse the NMEA strings, at which point it might be easier to use TSIP
[18:26] <DanielRichman> hallam, DRebellion, shoudln't be hard to switch choices between TSIP and NMEA
[18:26] <hallam> ugh don't use morse code, it's so annoying to decode while trying to aim a yagi antenna out of a sunroof as your mate is going round a roundabout
[18:26] <DRebellion> hallam, what would you recommend?
[18:26] <hallam> yeah it's not
[18:26] <hallam> keep the option open for now
[18:26] <hallam> start your experiments with NMEA
[18:26] <DanielRichman> hallam, have your computer decode it ;). Do you have a link to the UKHAS protocol?
[18:26] <hallam> maybe end up with TSIP for the flight, esp. if you want to use the UKHAS protocol
[18:26] <hallam> I think it's on the wiki
[18:26] <hallam> or jcoxon can tell you
[18:26] <DanielRichman> hallam, ok
[18:26] <hallam> it's pretty simple
[18:26] <aLeXBrEtOn> hmmm
[18:27] <aLeXBrEtOn> gonna charge batteries and give the camera a once-over
[18:27] <Laurenceb> theres TSIP code on the wiki
[18:27] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, yeah, good idea.
[18:27] <Laurenceb> should just be a copy paste job
[18:27] <hallam> on your wiki you say you need an antenna for the Radiometrix. but you don't have to buy one, they're easily made from a few bits of wire
[18:28] <DRebellion> hallam, we have no idea how to design it
[18:28] <DRebellion> hallam, is really as simple as a length of wire?
[18:28] <hallam> you can make a crap one from just a length of wire
[18:28] <hallam> you can make a pretty nice one from 5 lengths of wire and 5 plastic drinking straws
[18:28] <jcoxon> DRebellion, google 1/4wave Groundplane
[18:29] edmoore (n=edmoore@chu-gw.churchillcambridge.co.uk) left irc:
[18:29] <jcoxon> for 70 cm (433)
[18:29] <jcoxon> hallam, we don't want to give to much away :-)
[18:29] <hallam> hahaha
[18:31] <DRebellion> jcoxon, hallam, I think i know what you guys mean
[18:34] <natrium_> jcoxon, good news, the satphone minutes will roll over if i order 500 more
[18:35] <jcoxon> cool
[18:35] <aLeXBrEtOn> back
[18:39] <DRebellion> Is the cutdown here (http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/ideas:flight_support) ideal? Any advice?
[18:40] <hallam> yes, they're great
[18:40] <hallam> advice: make your first flight not depend on a cutdown working
[18:40] <hallam> i.e. make sure that flying to balloon burst will land you in a recoverable area (use the CUSF predictor)
[18:41] <DRebellion> hallam, we're probably going to launch from cambridge. Where do your flights usually go?
[18:41] <hallam> can be anywhere
[18:41] <hallam> have a play with the predictor and see
[18:41] <DanielRichman> I trust that using a cutdown won't affect the Parachute
[18:41] <Laurenceb> mars
[18:41] <hallam> it won't if you rig it properly
[18:43] <hallam> when that type of cutdown is made properly, it works very well. when it's made improperly it can fail
[18:43] <hallam> it's particularly important to use the right sort of tube - don'
[18:43] <hallam> don't use hexagonal-cross-section biro tube
[18:43] <DRebellion> hehe
[18:44] <hallam> Steve (Rocketboy, G8KHW) can tell you more, it's his design
[18:44] <hallam> you might like to simplify things by not having a cutdown at all on your first flight
[18:44] <hallam> up to you
[18:44] <DRebellion> hallam, no need to quote callsigns ;)
[18:44] <DRebellion> hallam, we really really don't want to lose the payload
[18:44] <hallam> well he uses either of those as nicks on this channel
[18:44] <hallam> of course not
[18:45] <hallam> going without a cutdown can be completely safe, as long as you pick your launch day carefully
[18:45] <hallam> the CUSF predictor is pretty accurate
[18:45] <DanielRichman> We're also at the mercy of the GPS and Arduino... we won't have two-way comms, so it could just cutdown randomly if the GPS feels like it
[18:45] <hallam> yeah exactly, the complexity of having a cutdown can add more failure modes
[18:46] <DRebellion> hallam, recommendation?
[18:46] <Laurenceb> theres the resistor cutdown as well
[18:46] <hallam> as long as it predicts you landing >20miles from the sea when you run it on launch day, you really should be fine - provided you don't totally cock up the fill and bork the ascent rate
[18:46] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, aLeXBrEtOn, i'd be happy with no cutdown
[18:46] <DanielRichman> looks like vote is passed 2 out of 3 (atleast)
[18:46] <hallam> I guess I'd give a weak recommendation not to use a cutdown, but it's very much a judgement call, there are arguments for both
[18:47] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/_detail/projects:mihab:p6290015.jpg
[18:48] <aLeXBrEtOn> guys, any ideas as to how to fix the cameras autofocus on infinity before launch?
[18:48] <aLeXBrEtOn> and get a suitable ISO setting
[18:48] <hallam> why not leave it on auto?
[18:49] <aLeXBrEtOn> ah no I can override all this
[18:49] <aLeXBrEtOn> well the electronix is not controlling the focus
[18:49] <aLeXBrEtOn> just the shutter
[18:50] <Laurenceb> we've never bother
[18:50] <Laurenceb> but its a good point
[18:51] <aLeXBrEtOn> I'll play around with the settings
[18:51] <DanielRichman> aLeXBrEtOn, we've got a tonne of free GPIO pins... so if you need something else controlled we can
[18:51] <aLeXBrEtOn> AF lock and ISO set to probably around 80
[18:51] <aLeXBrEtOn> lowest value
[18:53] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: ping
[18:54] <jcoxon> hey gordonjcp
[18:54] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: hello
[18:54] <jcoxon> hi
[18:54] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: a thought occurred to me
[18:54] <gordonjcp> on getting funding for balloon launches
[18:55] <gordonjcp> there's a company near me that makes fireworks, and for a suitable fee they will include a small amount of a cremated loved one's ashes into the load
[18:55] <gordonjcp> how about charging some suitable amount for hoiking a few grammes of someone to the edge of space and then firing them out with the cutdown charge?
[18:56] <aLeXBrEtOn> http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/newsbeat/newsid_7961000/7961224.stm
[18:56] <hallam> it's a bit embarassing when they get tangled in a tree
[18:56] <gordonjcp> true
[18:56] Action: gordonjcp -> afk again
[18:57] <hallam> aLeXBrEtOn: you could sell a balloon-borne penis-checking service to nearby wealthy parents
[18:57] <aLeXBrEtOn> yes, exactly what I was thinking
[18:57] <aLeXBrEtOn> we could check multiple households at once
[18:58] <aLeXBrEtOn> live video stream
[18:58] <jcoxon> gordonjcp, its an interesting idea
[19:04] <aLeXBrEtOn> BTW, anyone here use beacon LEDs abd very loud buzzers to aid localisation of the fallen payload?
[19:04] <aLeXBrEtOn> and*
[19:04] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, we can strip a LED torch
[19:04] <DRebellion> and buzzers should be simple
[19:04] <aLeXBrEtOn> I have an LED bulb
[19:05] <aLeXBrEtOn> 5W
[19:05] <hallam> aLeXBrEtOn: CUSF don't, typically if the GPS works you can get to within 10m of it, and if it doesn't work you're screwed anyway
[19:05] <aLeXBrEtOn> but its white so no use
[19:05] <hallam> though that last 10m can be a bit of a hunt sometimes, so I can see it being useful, just often not worth the bother
[19:05] <aLeXBrEtOn> yeah, DRebellion, in broad daylight an LED won't be much use
[19:05] <aLeXBrEtOn> better off with 2 buzzers
[19:05] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, well, at night it could be
[19:05] <DRebellion> Shall we leave the buzzers and go for a flashing light?
[19:05] <hallam> you don't really want to be recovering after dark
[19:06] <aLeXBrEtOn> we will be recovering in the afternoon
[19:06] <DRebellion> hallam, it happens though, right?
[19:06] <aLeXBrEtOn> morning
[19:06] <aLeXBrEtOn> dude, launch 7am
[19:06] <DRebellion> perhaps
[19:06] <DRebellion> What is the best launch time to get good sunrise photos?
[19:06] <aLeXBrEtOn> if 12hours pass and we haven't found it, we're screwed anyway
[19:07] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, I guess
[19:07] <hallam> yeah you start to run out of batteries etc
[19:07] <aLeXBrEtOn> we need buzzers
[19:07] <aLeXBrEtOn> ditch the LEDs
[19:07] <DRebellion> hmm
[19:07] <hallam> sunrise - you want to launch around 4am
[19:07] <hallam> the photos can be pretty cool
[19:07] <DRebellion> Sounds good
[19:07] <aLeXBrEtOn> waking up at 2am less cool
[19:07] <DRebellion> hallam, do cu generally launch on weekends?
[19:07] <aLeXBrEtOn> means I get ~1hr sleep
[19:07] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, nobody is making you come ; )
[19:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> no-one will drive us to cambridge at 4 in the morning
[19:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> face it
[19:08] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, really?
[19:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> as for sunrise, we probably won't catch it/see the difference anyway
[19:08] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, erm no
[19:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> unless you can drive
[19:08] <DRebellion> we're doing sunrise
[19:08] <DRebellion> and we're going to be in cambridge at 4m
[19:08] <DRebellion> 4am*
[19:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> give me an example
[19:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> talk to your transport co-ordinator
[19:09] <aLeXBrEtOn> I bet he'll say 'don't joke'
[19:11] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/_detail/projects:mihab:imag0265.jpg?id=projects%3Amihab%3Amihab3_glider_master_unit&cache=cache
[19:11] <hallam> DRebellion: don't know, some weekends, some weekdays - whenever the weather's good, really
[19:11] <DRebellion> hallam, ok, fine
[19:11] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, read: excuse to get off school
[19:11] <DRebellion> xD
[19:12] <aLeXBrEtOn> we're doing it in the holidays
[19:12] <hallam> if I were you I wouldn't try to do the first launch for dawn, because it means faffing with all the stuff while it's still dark
[19:12] <hallam> and freezing in a field
[19:12] <aLeXBrEtOn> still haven;t solved the issue o GETTING THERE
[19:12] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, relax
[19:12] <hallam> you'll still get good photos in the day
[19:12] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, i'm sure somebody will support us
[19:12] <aLeXBrEtOn> who?
[19:12] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, parents
[19:12] <hallam> there's always the train
[19:12] <DRebellion> school even - minibus
[19:12] <hallam> Laurenceb usually comes on the train
[19:12] <aLeXBrEtOn> don't even think about it
[19:12] <DRebellion> hallam, we need vehicles though
[19:13] <DRebellion> for tracking
[19:13] <aLeXBrEtOn> 2am...no
[19:13] <DRebellion> fine
[19:13] <DRebellion> we'll do a morning launch
[19:13] <DRebellion> as soon as it's light enough to begin setup
[19:13] <aLeXBrEtOn> there
[19:14] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, so, what we doing about leds/buzzers?
[19:15] <aLeXBrEtOn> get 1 big buzzer
[19:15] <aLeXBrEtOn> no leds
[19:15] <aLeXBrEtOn> we'll need an 8GB CF card
[19:16] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, what about if a member of the public can't stand the beeping?
[19:16] <aLeXBrEtOn> we'll have a phone number
[19:16] <aLeXBrEtOn> so they call us, and we stop it
[19:16] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, how?
[19:16] <aLeXBrEtOn> we'll write it on the side
[19:16] <DRebellion> I mean, how to stop it?
[19:17] <aLeXBrEtOn> pull the batts out
[19:17] <DRebellion> fine fine
[19:17] Action: DRebellion updates the wiki
[19:22] <aLeXBrEtOn> beat him to it^^
[19:22] edmoore (n=edmoore@pomegranate.chu.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[19:22] jcoxon (n=jcoxon@host86-145-224-2.range86-145.btcentralplus.com) left irc: "Leaving"
[19:24] <hallam> hey edmoore
[19:24] <hallam> what's your hunch on the lower ascent rate of nova 10 - underfill or model errors?
[19:25] <edmoore> I understand it was 4m/s
[19:25] <edmoore> that was about what i guessed
[19:25] <edmoore> for the sims we were doing, we still got float time at 4m/s
[19:25] <edmoore> so a) it suggests the winds were faster than predicted
[19:26] <edmoore> b) I haven't actually had 4m/s confirmed properly from the data, so that would be useful
[19:26] <hallam> oh ok, I thought we were planning for 5.5m/s
[19:26] <edmoore> c) I would expect the small speedup throughout ascent - the orange bits would have added quite a lot of drag, but that drag would have reduced as the air got thinner
[19:26] <edmoore> sure we were, but i simmed for under that just incase
[19:27] <hallam> ok
[19:27] <hallam> I'll graph up asc rate vs altitude
[19:27] <edmoore> + I wasn't totally confident on the model, and didn't want to land us in the drink. But I do accept some responsibility for not simming properly for the later launch time
[19:27] <hallam> oh I'm not bothered at all
[19:27] <edmoore> and it could probably have done with more fill (well, obviously)
[19:27] <edmoore> my main criteria was to avoid tangle!
[19:27] <hallam> yup
[19:28] <hallam> the balloons did seem to sep pretty nicely
[19:29] <edmoore> but yes, that 4 only got us to 19km was definitely not on the sim. Annoying
[19:29] <edmoore> do you have the raw data?
[19:29] <hallam> yeah it's on the cusf wiki
[19:30] <edmoore> cool
[19:32] <aLeXBrEtOn> guys, just what sort of temperature is our hardware reaching?
[19:32] <hallam> do you know what the ticks units are - ms?
[19:32] <aLeXBrEtOn> cameras + arduino
[19:33] <hallam> aLeXBrEtOn: depends on your payload box construction. Probably not much lower than -20 inside a vaguely well-built box
[19:33] <aLeXBrEtOn> ah
[19:33] <aLeXBrEtOn> my camera goes down to 0 degrees
[19:33] <edmoore> aLeXBrEtOn: externally as low as -60. As hallam said, throwing everything in a polystyrene box can get you up to ~-20
[19:33] <edmoore> aLeXBrEtOn: it probably goes lower
[19:33] <edmoore> trust
[19:33] <aLeXBrEtOn> yeah
[19:33] <aLeXBrEtOn> the official specs are always pessimistic
[19:33] <aLeXBrEtOn> so they are sure ;-)
[19:33] <edmoore> we've had camera rated to 0 go down to -60
[19:34] <edmoore> or at least be exposed to -60
[19:34] <aLeXBrEtOn> hmm if we insulate it correctly...
[19:34] <edmoore> they generate a decent amount of heat if they are constantly taking photos too
[19:34] <aLeXBrEtOn> I have some fibreglass lagging lying about
[19:34] <aLeXBrEtOn> should steal some of that
[19:36] <hallam> fergusnoble: about?
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[19:46] <hallam> http://www.mibbit.com/up/i6Jw3qg1.png <--- nova 10 ascent rate, m/s against time, arbitrary units
[19:47] <hallam> looks fairly constant to me
[19:47] <hallam> needs more filtering
[19:49] Nick change: hallam -> hallam|food
[19:52] <DRebellion> So what should we do in addition to using a polystyrene box to aid insulation? How thick should the box be? Any particular polystyrene type? What about covering the outside with foil to minimise heat loss (but then I guess that minimises heat gain from the sun?)
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[19:55] <edmoore> DRebellion: the foil suggestions is a good one
[19:55] <edmoore> we do that too
[19:56] <edmoore> and aids it being spotted
[19:56] <edmoore> polystyrene - we use about 2cm thick
[19:56] <edmoore> but it's not critical
[19:56] <edmoore> you are concerned with heat loss far more than gain in a 3hr balloon flight
[19:56] <DRebellion> edmoore, thanks for the advice. So, those are the only things you use? What sort of internal temperature do you maintain like that?
[19:57] <edmoore> -20ish
[19:57] <edmoore> it's not really critical, internal temp.
[19:57] <DRebellion> edmoore, well, don't want things to get too frosty ; D
[19:57] <edmoore> the electronics generate enough of their own heat. adequate/sensible insulation will be fine
[19:57] <edmoore> if you can get a polystyrene box like those used to package and send frozen fish, ideal
[19:58] <edmoore> + some foil/ space blanket
[19:58] <DRebellion> edmoore, sounds good.
[19:58] <DRebellion> What about sealing it?
[19:58] <DRebellion> I assume we don't have to worry about sealing it so tight that it explodes?
[19:59] <edmoore> nope
[19:59] <edmoore> don't do that
[19:59] <edmoore> allow some ait to go in and out
[19:59] <edmoore> it's much easier to let the pressures roughly equalise than trying to seal it tight
[19:59] <DRebellion> Will probably add a tiny hole then
[19:59] <edmoore> of course, if you actually want to do a proper environmental control system, cool and good luck!
[20:00] <edmoore> it's a fun thing to try and do
[20:00] <DRebellion> you mean with a heater?
[20:00] <edmoore> heater + pressure + humidity control
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[20:01] <edmoore> you don't necessarily need a heater to control the temperatyre - the electronics might produce enough
[20:02] <edmoore> it's just a question of whether you just let it be or actually try and control stuff. If you chose to actually try and control stuff, whether or not to have a heater is just one of the questions you'd have to ask, and answering it would involve lots of analysis. My advice : sod all that
[20:02] <DRebellion> hehe
[20:02] <DRebellion> edmoore, I think we'll take your approach then.
[20:03] <edmoore> we're not building mars orbiters here :)
[20:03] <edmoore> right, I need to dash
[20:03] <edmoore> talk to you later
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[20:34] <aLeXBrEtOn> do you guys think it is feasible to hold the box together with duck tape =) ?
[20:35] <aLeXBrEtOn> instead of glueing
[20:35] <rjharrison_> aLeXBrEtOn probably but i would go bolt and braces
[20:35] <rjharrison_> belt
[20:35] <aLeXBrEtOn> ermn we are talking polystyrene here ...
[20:35] <rjharrison_> Yep use hot melt glue
[20:36] <rjharrison_> well low melt glue
[20:37] <rjharrison_> aLeXBrEtOn: Rather like this one I made earlier (blue peter)
[20:37] <rjharrison_> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/2961193431/in/set-72157608235936214/
[20:37] <aLeXBrEtOn> plenty of tape =)
[20:37] <rjharrison_> Yep[
[20:38] <rjharrison_> It survived a trip t0 35k
[20:38] <DRebellion> rjharrison_, what's that made of?
[20:38] <DRebellion> rjharrison_, aww you're the dude who stole the perfect mythological balloon name ; P
[20:38] <rjharrison_> some insulation board from a DIY shop
[20:38] <DRebellion> rjharrison_, temperature?
[20:39] <DRebellion> (internal)
[20:39] <aLeXBrEtOn> there we go, I'll go buy some
[20:39] <aLeXBrEtOn> dude
[20:39] <aLeXBrEtOn> just ran a prediction for right now
[20:39] <DRebellion> right
[20:39] <aLeXBrEtOn> it landed in france
[20:39] <rjharrison_> around 6 to -5
[20:39] <aLeXBrEtOn> near Lille
[20:39] <DRebellion> haha
[20:39] <DRebellion> oh dear
[20:39] <rjharrison_> with camera on board will have better data with next launch
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[20:42] <DRebellion> Argh!
[20:42] <rjharrison_> DRebellion: this is my favorite picture so far. http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/2961972182/sizes/l/in/set-72157608235936214/
[20:42] <DRebellion> google earth flickers and fails with compiz
[20:42] <DRebellion> $ metacity --replace &
[20:42] <DRebellion> destroys my windows
[20:42] <DRebellion> ; (
[20:43] <DRebellion> i used to use that command all the time though....
[20:43] <DRebellion> rjharrison_, : O
[20:43] <DRebellion> that is beautiful
[20:44] <rjharrison_> That's the bottom quarter of the uk
[20:44] <aLeXBrEtOn> woah epic shot
[20:44] <aLeXBrEtOn> if we can get 1/10th of that we'll be ahppy
[20:44] <aLeXBrEtOn> happy*
[20:44] <aLeXBrEtOn> did you use a UV filter?
[20:44] <rjharrison_> There is some video on flickr at that alt too
[20:44] <DRebellion> rjharrison_, what altitude is that?
[20:45] <rjharrison_> Yep, to keep the camera warm
[20:45] <rjharrison_> ~35,000m
[20:45] <DRebellion> rjharrison_, am I looking at wales on the left?
[20:45] <rjharrison_> No bottom right as you see england on the map
[20:45] <rjharrison_> the cloud is over london
[20:45] <aLeXBrEtOn> UV filter?
[20:46] <rjharrison_> UV filter yes just to act as a window to keep the air out
[20:46] <DRebellion> ah right
[20:46] <DRebellion> rjharrison_, what do you think of exposing the camera lens directly to the outside?
[20:47] <aLeXBrEtOn> well obviously the way to go
[20:47] <aLeXBrEtOn> a clear surface in front will look awful
[20:47] <rjharrison_> That has be fine before
[20:47] <DRebellion> rjharrison_, surely you have to have some sort of hole to equalise the pressures?
[20:48] <rjharrison_> It not air tight
[20:48] <rjharrison_> just more or less wind proof
[20:48] <DRebellion> rjharrison_, right
[20:48] <rjharrison_> To keep temp up inside
[20:48] <DRebellion> aLeXBrEtOn, I guess we'll have some sort of 'S' bend hole in the side
[20:48] <rjharrison_> some video here at 35k http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/2964140728/in/set-72157608267950423/
[20:48] <DRebellion> to allow pressure equalisation
[20:48] <DRebellion> but keep wind out
[20:49] <hallam|food> shouldn't be much wind
[20:49] Nick change: hallam|food -> hallam
[20:49] <DRebellion> hallam, jet strea?
[20:49] <hallam> relative wind
[20:49] <rjharrison_> hallam: wind?
[20:49] <hallam> neglecting gusts, you'll be going straight up *relative to the air*
[20:50] <DRebellion> rjharrison_, the video is amazing as well
[20:50] <DRebellion> hallam, ah right.
[20:51] <rjharrison_> DRebellion: I was kinda pleased with the results from my maiden voyage
[20:51] <DRebellion> rjharrison_, we're keeping it much more simple for the first flight
[20:51] <DRebellion> just a single camera
[20:52] <rjharrison_> yep
[20:52] <natrium_> rjharrison_, when's your next launch btw?
[20:52] <rjharrison_> Programmed to take 2 pics every five mins and shoot 30 secs of video
[20:52] <rjharrison_> natrium_ as soon as possible
[20:52] <natrium_> this w/e? :)
[20:52] <rjharrison_> Unfortunaltely I had a comitment this w/e or I would have been up
[20:53] <rjharrison_> What is the wx like?
[20:53] <natrium_> what's your launch location?
[20:53] <rjharrison_> Leeds but I'll be launching from cambridge
[20:53] Nick change: rjharrison_ -> rjharrison
[20:54] <natrium_> very tight on saturday
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[20:55] <natrium_> sunday is even worse
[20:55] <rjharrison> I think it's going to be a month in reality
[20:55] <natrium_> :S
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[21:28] <DRebellion> Am I right in thinking that if I set a phone to sms every 5 mins for the whole flight, it wouldn't run out of battery super quick by 'scanning' for cell reception?
[21:29] <jcoxon> haven't had that problem
[21:30] <jcoxon> the phone is pretty much always scanning for reception in my experience
[21:30] <aLeXBrEtOn> well
[21:30] <aLeXBrEtOn> ^asking myself why I typed that now lol
[21:30] <jcoxon> and it won't send the sms until it has reception
[21:30] <hallam> battery probably won't last as long as it would on the ground due to that as well as temperature effects, but it's enough for a flight
[21:30] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, satisfied?
[21:30] <jcoxon> i don't think its worth turning it off mid flight
[21:31] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, told u so :P
[21:31] <DanielRichman> DRebellion, Fine.
[21:31] <jcoxon> one advantage of having it on all the time is that if your flight computer dies you can still track the phone itself
[21:31] <jcoxon> not very accurate but certainly get you in the right area
[21:31] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, WIN! http://developer.sonyericsson.com/getDocument.do?docId=65054
[21:31] Action: DRebellion is downloading
[21:32] <DRebellion> jcoxon, how do you track the phone itself?
[21:32] <DanielRichman> DRebellion, captcha fail cookies blocked
[21:32] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, no man
[21:32] <jcoxon> http://www.followus.co.uk/index.html
[21:32] <DRebellion> this was published feb 2009
[21:32] <DRebellion> reading...
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[21:36] <DRebellion> jcoxon, interesting mobile tracking link?
[21:36] <DRebellion> what does it cost?
[21:36] <jcoxon> its not cheap last time i checked
[21:36] <jcoxon> not sure
[21:36] <jcoxon> sorry
[21:36] <DRebellion> £12
[21:36] <DRebellion> for 20 tracks
[21:36] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, what do you think?
[21:36] <DRebellion> I think it'd be useful
[21:37] <DRebellion> certainly something to look into
[21:37] <DanielRichman> DRebellion, what's the point?
[21:37] <DRebellion> DanielRichman, it's just an extra location determiner
[21:37] <DRebellion> mobile phones are _tough_
[21:37] <DanielRichman> As if we don't have enough already
[21:37] <DRebellion> most likely piece of kit to survive an impact
[21:38] <DRebellion> circuit boards etc will snap in half
[21:38] <hallam> circuit boards won't snap
[21:38] <DRebellion> hallam, really?
[21:38] <DRebellion> crack?
[21:38] <DRebellion> generally break?
[21:38] <hallam> if it's in a polystyrene box nothing electronic will be damaged even if the parachute totally fails
[21:39] <hallam> some connectors might come out if you use the wrong ones
[21:39] <DRebellion> well, for £12 I still think it'd be stupid to pass up on the opportunity
[21:40] <hallam> is there any way you can not pay until you need it?
[21:41] <DRebellion> hallam, I doubt it
[21:41] <DRebellion> they have 'plans'
[21:41] <DRebellion> also, I doubt we can register when we need it - they probably have some sort of service to call/text the mobile to be tracked to ask permission
[21:43] <hallam> yeah I expect so, was just wondering if the permission text thing could be done before signing up for a plan - probably not but worth a check
[21:46] <hallam> jcoxon: do you have the nova 10 raw telemetry log up somewhere?
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[21:49] <natrium_> DRebellion, just launch a smart phone with gps :P
[21:49] <natrium_> DRebellion, it's a payload in one device!
[21:49] <DRebellion> natrium_, hah! I wish I had that sort of money to splash ; P
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[21:50] <jcoxon> hallam, yup one sec
[21:50] <hallam> thanks :)
[21:50] <natrium_> DRebellion, http://cgi.ebay.ca/Apple-iPhone-AT-T_W0QQitemZ280325008166QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCell_Phones?hash=item280325008166&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1215|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
[21:51] <natrium_> not too expensive
[21:51] <DRebellion> natrium_, rather get a dedicated gps module
[21:51] <jcoxon> hallam, http://pegasus4.no-ip.org/~jamescoxon/fldigi20090322.log
[21:52] <hallam> danke
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[21:58] <jcoxon> hallam, i reckon i actually picked it up a little bit earlier but it was in domino mode
[21:58] <jcoxon> was quite impressed with my reception.
[22:00] <shellevil> on the iphone thing
[22:01] <hallam> it was very cool
[22:01] <shellevil> in principle an iphone with a smashed screen would work
[22:01] <hallam> when the distributed network thing is going properly, we'll be well sorted
[22:01] <shellevil> if it otherwise works, and you can control it
[22:01] <hallam> see you guys later
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[22:01] <shellevil> wve
[22:02] <natrium_> shellevil, just need a dev license :)
[22:02] <natrium_> (or jailbreak)
[22:03] <shellevil> true
[22:03] Action: shellevil needs to do way too much.
[22:04] <shellevil> I need to play with FM codes over GSM
[22:04] <shellevil> cheapest GPS + micro + cheapest GSM 'bug'.
[22:06] <natrium_> hehe
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[23:12] Action: Laurenceb back
[23:46] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: when planning nother lauch?
[23:46] <Laurenceb> not quite sure, a few weeks, quite a bit to fix
[23:46] <SpeedEvil> k
[23:46] <Laurenceb> still working on wind prediction
[23:46] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke6P5qF072k
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[00:00] --- Wed Mar 25 2009