highaltitude.log.20090321

[00:00] <SpeedEvil> and worked out why radio?
[00:00] <Laurenceb> nope
[00:00] <Laurenceb> and only some foam broken
[00:00] <Laurenceb> but I want to improve the design
[00:00] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:01] <Laurenceb> needs more carbon fibre
[00:01] <Laurenceb> and ublox5
[00:03] <Laurenceb> I fell asleep on the train :-/
[00:03] <Laurenceb> almost missed the station
[00:04] <Laurenceb> theres some launch videos and photos
[00:04] <Laurenceb> hopefully we can get some online
[00:04] <Laurenceb> hallam canceled, guess everyone knows that
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> I think I was asleep
[00:06] <Laurenceb> te damper is quite impressive
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> roll damper?
[00:09] <Laurenceb> for the star tracker
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> ah
[00:15] <SpeedEvil> is it passive, or active?
[00:16] <Laurenceb> its passive
[00:17] <Laurenceb> big ripstop "fins"
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> ah
[00:17] <Laurenceb> ~2x3m
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[00:30] <Laurenceb> the lassen iq was extremely annoying, I had to remove the backup batttery twice
[00:31] <Laurenceb> probably would have spotted the issue with the radio if it wasnt for that
[00:34] <Laurenceb> I need this: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8889
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[00:42] <Laurenceb> oh wow ublox has I2C
[02:33] <natrium42> but not IRC
[02:33] <natrium42> I2C is probably for flash, no?
[02:33] <natrium42> or EEPROM
[03:57] <sYx66> T-9 hours :)
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[08:10] <jcoxon> morning all
[09:01] <gordonjcp> morning
[09:36] <jcoxon> hey gordonjcp
[10:01] edmoore (n=edmoore@pomegranate.chu.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[10:06] <jcoxon> morning edmoore
[10:06] <edmoore> good morning jcoxon
[10:09] <jcoxon> i was in cambridge yesterday evening
[10:09] <jcoxon> but am back in london now - got hte graveyard train - soo slow
[10:11] <edmoore> :)
[10:11] <edmoore> what can ya do
[10:13] <jcoxon> ooo natrium42's launch today will be good
[10:13] <jcoxon> nice wyoming forecast
[10:13] <edmoore> attempt 2? awesome
[10:13] <edmoore> stick it up
[10:13] <jcoxon> need to think of a clever way to upload tracks for people to see
[10:13] <jcoxon> one sec
[10:16] <jcoxon> http://pegasus4.no-ip.org/~jamescoxon/tracks/
[10:19] <jcoxon> cusf predictor is a little tighter
[10:19] <jcoxon> landing very close to the lake
[10:19] <edmoore> oh lovely
[10:20] <jcoxon> its fine if we up the ascent rate a little
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[11:23] aLeXBrEtOn (n=Alexande@client-80-5-40-149.cht-bng-014.adsl.virginmedia.net) joined #highaltitude.
[11:23] <aLeXBrEtOn> hello all
[11:24] <aLeXBrEtOn> just getting info for a weather balloon with camera launch
[11:24] <aLeXBrEtOn> http://www.followgb.co.uk/products/followpro/index.aspx
[11:24] <aLeXBrEtOn> just wondering if this would be a suitable tracker for the balloon
[11:25] <jcoxon> hi aLeXBrEtOn
[11:25] <jcoxon> where abouts are you based?
[11:26] <aLeXBrEtOn> UK
[11:26] <aLeXBrEtOn> south of england
[11:26] <jcoxon> okay cool, there are quite a few of us
[11:26] <aLeXBrEtOn> do you reckon that tracker is suitable for a weather balloon?
[11:26] <aLeXBrEtOn> just looking around
[11:26] <jcoxon> its pretty expensive
[11:26] <jcoxon> and won't work at altitude
[11:26] <jcoxon> so the beginning and end of the flight
[11:26] <aLeXBrEtOn> we have someone funding us, so money isn't the biggest obstacle
[11:27] <jcoxon> yeah but still
[11:27] <aLeXBrEtOn> do you have a device that you would recommend?
[11:27] <jcoxon> whats the aim of the flight?
[11:27] <aLeXBrEtOn> to take photos
[11:27] <aLeXBrEtOn> we are loading a camera as well
[11:27] <jcoxon> okay
[11:28] <jcoxon> the standard plan is to have both a gsm component and a radio component
[11:28] <aLeXBrEtOn> ok
[11:28] <jcoxon> gsm works well on the ground but stops working above 3000m alt while radio works great in the air
[11:28] <aLeXBrEtOn> are there places to buy this equipment in the uk?
[11:28] <aLeXBrEtOn> or even US
[11:29] <jcoxon> yeah there are though it requires a little bit of assembly
[11:29] <aLeXBrEtOn> not a big issue
[11:29] <aLeXBrEtOn> also
[11:29] <aLeXBrEtOn> when the balloon bursts, how do you get the parachute to deploy?
[11:29] <aLeXBrEtOn> and also at what stage in the flight?
[11:30] <jcoxon> its pre deploye
[11:30] <jcoxon> d
[11:30] <aLeXBrEtOn> so...
[11:30] <jcoxon> so when the balloon bursts it deploys itself
[11:30] <aLeXBrEtOn> it's just dangling loose behind the balloon?
[11:30] <jcoxon> no what you do is run hte main line from the balloon to the payload through the spill hole in hte parachute
[11:31] <aLeXBrEtOn> aha ok
[11:31] <aLeXBrEtOn> great
[11:31] <jcoxon> and it rests on something slightly loose
[11:31] <jcoxon> when the balloon bursts it then inflates and your payload drifts down happily
[11:32] <aLeXBrEtOn> and how much deviation can we expect, if there is no wind?
[11:32] <jcoxon> there is always wind :-)
[11:32] <aLeXBrEtOn> well assuming there is a minimum ;)
[11:32] Action: SpeedEvil shows his hairy ball.
[11:32] <jcoxon> 20km
[11:32] <aLeXBrEtOn> ok
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball
[11:32] <jcoxon> there are ways of predicting
[11:33] <jcoxon> e.g. http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/predict/index.php
[11:33] <jcoxon> and http://weather.uwyo.edu/polar/balloon_traj.html
[11:33] <aLeXBrEtOn> I do have access to fairly detailed weather data
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> not that detailed
[11:33] <aLeXBrEtOn> my dad works at a weather agency ;)
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> probaly
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> maybe
[11:33] <aLeXBrEtOn> dude
[11:34] <aLeXBrEtOn> it is a supercomputer site
[11:34] <aLeXBrEtOn> nvm
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> yes - it's a supercomputer site
[11:34] <jcoxon> :-D
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> this doesn't mean it's got the program to take a balloon launch, and track it.
[11:34] <aLeXBrEtOn> sure
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> But yes, they probably have the data in that case
[11:34] <aLeXBrEtOn> but they do know a lot about winds ;)
[11:35] <aLeXBrEtOn> so...
[11:35] <aLeXBrEtOn> can you guys give me an example of specific hardware to use?
[11:35] <jcoxon> aLeXBrEtOn, yup
[11:35] <aLeXBrEtOn> I'm after the GPS and radio trackers in particular
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> it's not a weather type thing really - it's a specialised forecast - as the balloon rises through each different predicted wind zone, it has to be blown as it will be on ascent, and then the same way on descent.
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> the wiki
[11:35] <aLeXBrEtOn> the rest should be easy to find
[11:35] <aLeXBrEtOn> yeah
[11:35] <jcoxon> AVR or arduino, a ublox or lassen IQ gps and a radiometrix ntx2
[11:36] <aLeXBrEtOn> I see what you mean
[11:36] <aLeXBrEtOn> thanks ;)
[11:36] <aLeXBrEtOn> google time
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> absolute minimum
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> a payg phone, with 'web tracking' enabled
[11:36] <jcoxon> might want to stick a gsm module in there - either an old mobile phone or a GM862 module
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> this will give you location to within a couple of hundred metres if you're lucky when it lands
[11:37] <SpeedEvil> you can then do foxhunting (searching for RF transmitter) on the ground.
[11:37] <jcoxon> aLeXBrEtOn, there is a launch in canada at 14:00 GMT so do stick around for that
[11:37] <jcoxon> will be able to track online
[11:37] <SpeedEvil> GPS + radio transmitter is _much_ easier to find
[11:37] <SpeedEvil> you can - hopefully - if nothing breaks - go directgly to the balloon
[11:37] <aLeXBrEtOn> 1400 today?
[11:37] <SpeedEvil> yes
[11:38] <jcoxon> and check out a few of the projects around
[11:38] <jcoxon> mine is: http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php
[11:38] <aLeXBrEtOn> not sure if I will have access to the computer then, but thanks a lot ;)
[11:38] <aLeXBrEtOn> wow
[11:38] <aLeXBrEtOn> there appears to be a Trimble dealer some 20 miles from my house =)
[11:39] <jcoxon> aLeXBrEtOn, sparkfun is you friend
[11:39] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[11:39] <jcoxon> while its US its incredible - has everything
[11:39] <jcoxon> i'd personally go for a ublox of a lassen IQ
[11:39] <SpeedEvil> No it doesn't.
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> Where is the gimballed 10Kn regeneratively cooled H2O2/kerosene engines? Huh? HUH?
[11:40] <aLeXBrEtOn> heh
[11:40] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, where does that fit onto a simple balloon payload?
[11:40] <jcoxon> :-)
[11:40] <aLeXBrEtOn> well, a big ass balloon ;)
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: it's an alternative to the parachute, if it fails to open.
[11:40] <aLeXBrEtOn> zeppelin anyone?
[11:41] <SpeedEvil> 'oops - sorry slight miscalculation, diddn't actually mean for it to go into orbit'.
[11:41] <aLeXBrEtOn> regarding a parachute...do you guys use the ones normally intended for model rockets?
[11:41] <SpeedEvil> generally not
[11:41] <SpeedEvil> bit of fabric
[11:41] <SpeedEvil> nothing complex
[11:41] <aLeXBrEtOn> eheh ok
[11:41] <jcoxon> aLeXBrEtOn, i use a rocket one
[11:41] <aLeXBrEtOn> though I'd rather buy something intended for that purpose
[11:41] <SpeedEvil> There is nothing really complex or clever in the balloon or chute generally
[11:42] <aLeXBrEtOn> after all, it is a fairly important component though
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> it's all in the payload.
[11:42] <jcoxon> on the wiki there is a measuring chart to work out what size to get
[11:42] <aLeXBrEtOn> and they provide the high-strength nylon lines
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> aLeXBrEtOn: if you're not confident of manly skills, like being able to sew, ... :)
[11:42] <aLeXBrEtOn> haha
[11:42] <jcoxon> aLeXBrEtOn, nearly all failures are the payload rather then balloon or chute
[11:42] <jcoxon> from personal experience
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> (being able to sew is damn handy)
[11:43] <jcoxon> and also launching on the wrong day so it goes in the sea
[11:43] <jcoxon> thats the biggest problem
[11:43] <aLeXBrEtOn> wait a min
[11:43] <aLeXBrEtOn> with GSM, you can track virtually any SIM card right?
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> ?However, only up to maybe 300m altitude
[11:43] <aLeXBrEtOn> so all we need on board is a mobile phone?
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> and only to a few hundred meters accuracy
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> and if it actually will re-connect to the GSM network on the way down is a debatable issue
[11:44] <aLeXBrEtOn> is it necessary to track it at high altitude?
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> aLeXBrEtOn: no - only when it comes down.
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> But...
[11:44] <aLeXBrEtOn> because surely all you need is to be able to find it on the ground
[11:44] <jcoxon> aLeXBrEtOn, the original flights were just gsm and a 3 hour blackout is not fun
[11:45] <aLeXBrEtOn> true
[11:45] <SpeedEvil> Tracking at altitude all the way to the ground gets you a close area to search if your transmitter on the ground fails.
[11:45] <jcoxon> tracking it by radio means you can travel in the right direction
[11:45] <jcoxon> its worth the extra effort and we've pretty much cracked simple radio stuff
[11:45] <jcoxon> considering that an ntx2 is only about 15 quid
[11:45] <aLeXBrEtOn> ok
[11:45] <aLeXBrEtOn> how accurate?
[11:46] <SpeedEvil> however, reciever is considerably more
[11:46] <jcoxon> how accurate is gps?
[11:46] <SpeedEvil> aLeXBrEtOn: with GPS - +-3m or so
[11:46] <jcoxon> we have recievers
[11:46] <aLeXBrEtOn> and how about the radio tracker?
[11:46] <jcoxon> rjharrison has a nice simple payload with gps and radio
[11:46] <aLeXBrEtOn> I was just wondering
[11:46] <aLeXBrEtOn> may be a silly idea
[11:46] <SpeedEvil> aLeXBrEtOn: the tracker broadcasts GPS data
[11:46] <aLeXBrEtOn> but how about those radio tags used to track wildlife?
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> aLeXBrEtOn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmitter_hunting
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> is an alternative
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> but slower to find.
[11:47] <aLeXBrEtOn> yeah
[11:47] <aLeXBrEtOn> but they are very small and very accurate
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> Also - the GPS broadcast can douyble as a solution to get you to near the landing site
[11:47] <aLeXBrEtOn> though not very cheap
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> Generally.
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> Very cheap in this hobby means more lost payloads
[11:48] <aLeXBrEtOn> so if I understand right we need a radio transmitter and a GPS transmitter on board
[11:48] <aLeXBrEtOn> along with the camera
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> A radio transmitter hooked to the GPS
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> camera and whatever arre completley optional
[11:48] <aLeXBrEtOn> errrr
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> but of course handy if you want to find it after
[11:48] <aLeXBrEtOn> radio hooked to GPS?
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> err
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> see pics rather
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> GPS radio transmitters don't exist
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> well - cheaply
[11:49] <aLeXBrEtOn> surely just a radio is enough?
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> you have to couple together a GPS module and a transmitter module
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> yes - for simple tracking. as above wiki link
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> GPS is a lot more reliable - is it in fact your ballooon that you're recieving, ...
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> and if your transmitter falls into a hole, gets trodden on by a cow, or blown up by the bomb squad, you're out of luck
[11:51] <aLeXBrEtOn> eh
[11:51] <aLeXBrEtOn> wait a sec
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> with one emitting GPS info, you're not - as you have the last position, and can go there
[11:51] <aLeXBrEtOn> I have here bird radio transmitters
[11:51] <aLeXBrEtOn> with 120 000 ft range
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> 120000ft is probably line of sight
[11:51] <aLeXBrEtOn> yeah
[11:51] <aLeXBrEtOn> so up in the air
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> you're not guaranteed line of sight when the balloon is behind a hill
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> and 120000ft is way too short
[11:52] <aLeXBrEtOn> but when it's 20 000 ft high
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> 60000ft at least
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> 30Km
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> 90000 feet even
[11:52] <aLeXBrEtOn> ground to ground is 4km
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> with inexpensive transmitters on 433MHz, you can get ranges of hundres of km.
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> in the air
[11:53] <aLeXBrEtOn> yeah the NTX2 looks the better option
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> if you're falling at 10MPH, with a 30MPH sideways motion, it can be tricky to get within a few km before it lands
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> the payload that is
[11:54] <aLeXBrEtOn> this NTX2 that jcoxon was using says 'usable range over 500m'
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> especially if you hit a wind change
[11:54] <aLeXBrEtOn> not that much
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> we've gotten IIRC 300Km out of it.
[11:55] <aLeXBrEtOn> you've lost me there
[11:55] <aLeXBrEtOn> it says 500m and you get 300km?
[11:55] <SpeedEvil> 500m is range on the ground
[11:55] <SpeedEvil> in a balloon, with line-of-sight, a good reciever, and antenna, you get _much_ better results
[11:55] <aLeXBrEtOn> so we have to get within 500m of it before it hits the ground
[11:56] <jcoxon> aLeXBrEtOn, yeah those transmitters are rated on the ground, they are excellent
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> or, again, if it's broadcasting GPS, you go to the last GPS position you recieved, which should be when the thing was a couple of hundred meters up at most
[11:56] <jcoxon> in the air
[11:56] <jcoxon> or where you gsm module kicks in and sends you a text of its location
[11:58] <aLeXBrEtOn> and can you explain how you can get a radio transmitter to broadcast GPS?
[11:58] <jcoxon> sure
[11:58] <SpeedEvil> you hook the eelectical output of the GPS - which sends seria
[11:58] <jcoxon> so your flight computer gets teh location off teh gps
[11:58] <SpeedEvil> to the input of the transmitter
[11:58] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, not directly!
[11:58] <SpeedEvil> optionally using a little computer in the middle to add status messages
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: directly - with a GPS that can go to 50bps'd work OK though
[11:59] <jcoxon> a proctocol would be much better
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> yes
[11:59] <jcoxon> and easy to implement
[11:59] <aLeXBrEtOn> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Seav-TXS3-Radio-Transmitter-433Mhz-Dip-switch-zapper_W0QQitemZ120340673965QQcmdZViewItem
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> 'easy' - depending on your skill level
[11:59] <aLeXBrEtOn> a bit big
[11:59] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, arduino + rtty the code and diagrams are on my site
[12:00] <jcoxon> aLeXBrEtOn, can't use that one sorry
[12:00] <aLeXBrEtOn> thought so
[12:00] <jcoxon> basically the radio rules in hte uk are quite restrictive
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: what's actually wrong with a GPS set to 50 baud?
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: other than no temperature, and no callsign/... and slow update
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: my garmin GPS-12 IIRC just outputs GPRMC sentances in that condition.
[12:01] <jcoxon> aLeXBrEtOn, the radiometrix modules are fine, but that transmitter is outside the allowed band
[12:02] <aLeXBrEtOn> aha
[12:02] <aLeXBrEtOn> so...I buy the NTX2, what GPS hardware is necessary?
[12:02] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, there is nothing wrong with it but i reckon you can improve the range and the reliablity easily
[12:02] <jcoxon> and also add in more info
[12:03] <jcoxon> you'll need a gps module and a suitable flight computer e.g. a micro controller
[12:03] <jcoxon> right i have to go
[12:03] <jcoxon> will bbl
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> wave
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> As to which GPS, you certainly need a GPS which works OK up above 60000ft - some do not. Check the wiki again.
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> sparkfun - the lassen IQ works for example.
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> Youp[re probably going to need to solder, for example
[12:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> lassen IQ + NTX2 looks like a good combo
[12:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> I think we can handle soldering
[12:08] <SpeedEvil> need to learn to
[12:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> sorta know already ;)
[12:08] <SpeedEvil> yeah - SMT is a bit more involved
[12:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> are there connectors between the two units that hook up directly?
[12:08] <SpeedEvil> nope
[12:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> thought not
[12:08] <aLeXBrEtOn> so how do you get 'em together?
[12:10] <aLeXBrEtOn> from what I see you have 2 completely different pieces of hardware
[12:15] <jcoxon> you want something in between
[12:15] <jcoxon> like a micro controller
[12:15] <jcoxon> say an AVR or an arduino (and avr with nice development software)
[12:15] <jcoxon> or a PIC or ARM
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[12:17] <aLeXBrEtOn> interesting
[12:17] <aLeXBrEtOn> to Trimble sell a GPS tracker?
[12:17] <aLeXBrEtOn> to go with the Lassen iq
[12:22] <aLeXBrEtOn> hmmm
[12:22] <aLeXBrEtOn> I will ring them up later
[12:31] <natrium42> hi
[12:34] <aLeXBrEtOn> ok, bye for now ;)
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[12:35] <natrium42> haha, cusf landing predictor says it will land near fergus, ontario
[12:35] <natrium42> where's fnoble anyway?
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[12:51] <jcoxon> hey natrium42
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[13:05] <natrium42> hi jcoxon
[13:05] <natrium42> ready for the launch? :)
[13:08] <Hiena> http://www.indavideo.hu/video/Piroska_es_a_farkas_2?action=video_site&video_title=Piroska_es_a_farkas_2%3Ftoken%3De643d3e690d816a179bf7955e3f1c6e0
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[13:34] <Laurenceb> hello
[13:34] Action: Laurenceb had a looongs sleep in
[13:34] <Laurenceb> so knackering yesterday
[13:35] <Laurenceb> I'm not sure if I want to do some minor fixes and go for another launch asap or rebuild it with some design changes
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[13:48] <Laurenceb> hi edmoore
[13:48] <edmoore> morning
[13:48] <edmoore> lovely day
[13:48] Action: Laurenceb only just woke up
[13:48] <edmoore> wow
[13:48] <Laurenceb> soo tired, I fell asleep on the train
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> again?
[13:49] <Laurenceb> contemplating rebuilding the payload enclosure vs quick fix and launch very soon
[13:49] <Laurenceb> yesterday
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> ah
[13:50] <edmoore> do both
[13:50] <edmoore> i.e. quick fix
[13:50] <edmoore> with updated pid coefficients
[13:50] <edmoore> then start work on a shiny new payload
[13:50] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:50] <SpeedEvil> did you work out what the radio was?
[13:50] <Laurenceb> ooh it was in stable flight :P
[13:50] <edmoore> oh yeah, fix that too :)
[13:50] <Laurenceb> hmm...
[13:51] <Laurenceb> oh god dont say I had the wrong sign on the Integral term....
[13:51] <Laurenceb> for the first minute after release it was in stable flight, but almost pi off target
[13:51] <SpeedEvil> oops.
[13:52] hallam (i=836f0142@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-46149c45e4b22e5b) joined #highaltitude.
[13:53] <hallam> hey all
[13:53] <edmoore> hi hallam
[13:53] <Laurenceb> hi hallam
[13:53] <SpeedEvil> hey
[13:53] <hallam> Laurenceb: did you recover the Rogallo?
[13:53] <Laurenceb> yes
[13:53] <Laurenceb> got it here, +some data
[13:53] <hallam> what happened?
[13:53] <Laurenceb> from the datalogger
[13:53] <Laurenceb> radio broke
[13:54] <hallam> but the autopilot worked?
[13:54] <Laurenceb> almost
[13:54] <Laurenceb> looking at the data now
[13:54] <Laurenceb> I thought it had an unrecoverable trim error
[13:54] <Laurenceb> but for the first minute its flying ok
[13:55] <hallam> so it released at what, 10km?
[13:55] <Laurenceb> with a bit of oscillation in the heading
[13:55] <Laurenceb> 5
[13:56] <Laurenceb> hmf
[13:56] <Laurenceb> integral constant had right sign
[13:57] <hallam> edmoore: how are you doing - sleep well?
[13:57] <edmoore> got some sleep yes, thanks
[13:57] <edmoore> feeling a lot better
[13:57] <edmoore> you?
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:58] <hallam> yes, much
[13:58] <hallam> I was completely fallign apart at launch
[13:58] <natrium42> ok, leaving for launch site
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> Good luck!
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> oh
[13:58] <natrium42> ty
[13:58] <hallam> hope it goes well :)
[13:58] <Laurenceb> good luck
[13:59] <Laurenceb> hmm I may have worked it out
[13:59] <natrium42> i had time to test it yesterday -- works on the ground :)
[13:59] <edmoore> good luck natrium42
[13:59] <natrium42> thanks, drive is 100km
[13:59] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: http://www.roflcat.com/images/cats/270915351_bc8e626c68.jpg
[13:59] <edmoore> we gt ours working on the ground too yesterday
[13:59] <hallam> edmoore: have you done any sims for a launch tomorrow? (and can I do any useful sims with the online predictor?)
[13:59] <natrium42> see you in a bit more than 1 hour
[13:59] <edmoore> hallam: will do some now
[13:59] <edmoore> bear in mind though, I'm not here
[13:59] <natrium42> haha, SpeedEvil
[14:00] <hallam> ok
[14:00] <hallam> I think we could probably pull it off if the weather comes together
[14:00] <Laurenceb> there was a trim error at launch but it was just recoverable, it entered stable flight pointing away from target, but it was oscillating by +-40 degrees or so in a sawtooth
[14:00] <Laurenceb> this made the integral term screw up
[14:00] <hallam> Laurenceb: trim in which axis?
[14:01] <Laurenceb> and so it didnt trim itself properly
[14:01] <Laurenceb> yaw
[14:01] <jcoxon> hallam, if you launch tomorrow i can track from london in the morning
[14:01] <Laurenceb> just a sec I'll grad the data
[14:02] <edmoore> also recall no iain either, I think. Ok, original flight plan puts us in the sea. will try some different stuff
[14:02] <edmoore> it's further over to the east now
[14:03] <edmoore> v similar flight profile to icarus
[14:03] <edmoore> south of maidstone
[14:03] <edmoore> with 5m/s to 28km then 0.5hr float
[14:03] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/42197
[14:04] <Laurenceb> thats in seconds
[14:04] <Laurenceb> and heading in radians
[14:05] <hallam> edmoore: what does the flight path look like for that? I guess people are unhappy overflying greater london
[14:05] <edmoore> it's out to the east
[14:05] <edmoore> overflying basildon and gravesend
[14:07] <hallam> okay, that could be workable
[14:07] <hallam> hm, does www.cuspaceflight.co.uk work for other people?
[14:07] <jcoxon> no
[14:07] <jcoxon> now it does
[14:07] <edmoore> gets much worse at 12noon
[14:07] <edmoore> swinging east
[14:08] <edmoore> and overflying quite a large part of the mouth of the thames
[14:08] <edmoore> i.e. about 1/3rd of the flight is over the sea
[14:08] <edmoore> the original sim is for 6am launch
[14:08] <Laurenceb> http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.112781,0.044165&spn=0.001489,0.004828&t=h&z=18
[14:08] <Laurenceb> landing was there
[14:08] <Laurenceb> (for rogallo)
[14:08] <hallam> yeah I wouldn't be too comfy launching after about 10am (looking at the predictor now)
[14:08] <hallam> though you could lower the float altitude
[14:09] <hallam> do you think I should email the list and ask if anyone would be able to do the launch?
[14:10] <edmoore> lets do a quick review now to just check the numer of more competant people (admit it, you'll be tied up with electronics - there needs to be some good people to do fill etc)
[14:10] <hallam> No you, Iain and Fergus makes it a bit tricky but me, Dan and Rob A plus some helpers might suffice
[14:10] <edmoore> when i say competant, i don't meen that in an elitest way, just in terms of experience for what is a tricky launch
[14:10] <hallam> I'm not so sure I really will be tied up with electronics, I did more testing last night and it really does look like it's good to go atm
[14:11] <hallam> I'll do a full flight-long, plugs-out test
[14:11] <edmoore> you'll have to fire up badger aswell though
[14:11] <edmoore> with the jtag
[14:11] <edmoore> it's doin g that wierd thing
[14:11] <hallam> oh crap, badger needs jtag booting too? that's annoying
[14:11] <hallam> I might see if Fergus is willing to stay on til tomorrow
[14:11] <hallam> do you think that Dan, Rob A and one of me + Ferg could handle rigging?
[14:11] <edmoore> i may be able to help with the launch
[14:11] <edmoore> but i need to leave cam at about 8
[14:12] <hallam> earlier looks better anyway atm
[14:12] <edmoore> 6am looks ok to me
[14:12] <edmoore> ok, you have a ring around
[14:12] <hallam> ok
[14:12] <edmoore> i am tied up thisafternoon doing some work i promised some people but shout if you need anything
[14:13] <Laurenceb> doh... got it
[14:13] <Laurenceb> sorry to interrupt :P
[14:14] <Laurenceb> integral sanity check had the wrong sign
[14:14] <Laurenceb> thats why it broke :P
[14:15] <Laurenceb> #define INTEGRAL_LIMIT 0.2/I_C should be #define INTEGRAL_LIMIT -0.2/I_C
[14:15] <Laurenceb> grrrr all that wasted effort for one line of code
[14:15] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, do you have a trace of the flight path?
[14:15] <Laurenceb> will do soon
[14:15] <jcoxon> okay cool
[14:15] <Laurenceb> sorry still havent woken up
[14:15] <jcoxon> np
[14:18] <hallam> edmoore: fergus could make it if he gets the train home afterward, but would prefer not to
[14:18] <hallam> I'll call Iain
[14:20] <hallam> he could probably do a.m.
[14:21] <Laurenceb> yeah the interal check error causes effectively a large trim error
[14:21] <Laurenceb> rather *the* large trim error
[14:22] <Laurenceb> as the integrated heading error is always outside the safe range and is set to the limit of the safe range, which is enough to cause a large trim error
[14:22] <hallam> Laurenceb: want a 6dof code-in-the-loop simulator yet?
[14:22] <Laurenceb> the rest of the control loop can semi recover and it is stable flying away from target
[14:23] <Laurenceb> you've writtten one?
[14:23] <hallam> sadly not
[14:23] <Laurenceb> :P
[14:23] <Laurenceb> hang on... this simulates the airframe?
[14:23] <hallam> but I wonder what the ardupilot and other similar things use to test
[14:23] <hallam> yeah
[14:23] <Laurenceb> hallam: that stuff is junk imo
[14:23] <edmoore> ok, why is this difficult
[14:24] <Laurenceb> - the ardupilot
[14:24] <edmoore> in matlab, i want to make any negative elements of a matrix = 0
[14:24] <Laurenceb> edmoore: its not :P
[14:24] <Laurenceb> oh sorry
[14:24] <hallam> M=M*(M>=0)
[14:24] <Laurenceb> anyway I was going to say yeah I think I've fixed it
[14:24] <Laurenceb> thats a neat trick
[14:25] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:parafoil_tsip
[14:25] <hallam> sorry .* not *
[14:25] <Laurenceb> if(integral>INTEGRAL_LIMIT) in ISR(TIMER1_COMPB_vect){}, thats where it screws up
[14:26] <Laurenceb> I could have discovered that from ground test data if I'd looked in the right place ;-/
[14:27] <edmoore> ta
[14:27] <hallam> Laurenceb: you've heard about the "bug" that finally scrubbed us in the end?
[14:27] <edmoore> now can loose the crazy slow loop
[14:27] <Laurenceb> hallam: it wound work on the ground deliberatly?
[14:28] <Laurenceb> there was some sort of "is it in space" check
[14:28] <hallam> almost
[14:28] <Laurenceb> sky too blue?
[14:28] <hallam> for every "set" of exposures it usually takes one auto exposure, one long exposure and then 10 exposures of length that's determined by which set it is
[14:29] <hallam> but to save space and time it doesn't bother with the long one and the 10, if the auto one was too bright
[14:29] <hallam> i.e. sun in the frame
[14:29] <hallam> so yeah, sky too bright
[14:29] <hallam> so we saw it going through sets very quickly because it was only doing the auto exposures
[14:29] <hallam> thought it was broken
[14:29] <hallam> 30 minutes trying to debug, after which launch window closed and my laptop died
[14:30] <Laurenceb> :-/
[14:30] <hallam> I took it to the bar, it started working, then figured out what the "problem" was
[14:30] alexk (i=1872e820@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-afdf3c95ed1606f5) joined #highaltitude.
[14:30] <hallam> I feel like such a tit
[14:30] <Laurenceb> hehe me too
[14:30] <hallam> but the whole lot should have been ready and tested way earlier
[14:31] <alexk> natrium42's bro here. we're on our way. eta 1hr 30min
[14:31] <edmoore> cool
[14:32] <edmoore> same website as before alexk ?
[14:32] <jcoxon> spacenear.us/tracker
[14:32] <hallam> alexk: does this one have an HF transmitter?
[14:32] <Laurenceb> #define INTEGRAL_LIMIT 0.2/I_C should be #define INTEGRAL_LIMITT 0.2/(fabs(I_C)) ..... will that evaluate fabs at compilation?
[14:32] <alexk> edmoore: yup
[14:32] <jcoxon> hallam, just Spot and GSM
[14:32] <jcoxon> the HF transmitter is still with Steve
[14:33] <hallam> Laurenceb: not sure, probably not, but either way it should definitely be in parentheses
[14:33] <hallam> as should any kind of calculation in a #define
[14:33] <Laurenceb> how do you mean?
[14:33] Xenion (n=robert@p579FCCCD.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[14:33] <Laurenceb> (0.2/(fabs(I_C))) ?
[14:33] <hallam> yeah
[14:34] <hallam> so you don't get weird order of operations stuff when you later evaluate expressions involving INTEGRAL_LIMIT
[14:34] <Xenion> Hi Ho :-)
[14:34] <hallam> hi Xenion
[14:42] aLeXBrEtOn (n=Alexande@client-80-5-40-149.cht-bng-014.adsl.virginmedia.net) joined #highaltitude.
[14:42] <aLeXBrEtOn> hi everyone
[14:43] <aLeXBrEtOn> just want to get a list of all the components that are going to be on board the balloon
[14:44] <SpeedEvil> do you have anyone good at programming?
[14:44] <aLeXBrEtOn> yes, DRebellion from yesterday
[14:44] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/42201
[14:45] <aLeXBrEtOn> anyway
[14:45] <aLeXBrEtOn> there will be a Lassen iq receiver on the ground I believe
[14:45] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: you've reinvented the spirograph
[14:45] <Laurenceb> thats position
[14:46] <aLeXBrEtOn> what device goes on the balloon to plot it's position?
[14:46] <SpeedEvil> alexk: the GPS
[14:46] <aLeXBrEtOn> there will be a radio transmitter...what else?
[14:46] <SpeedEvil> alexk: you have the GPS, typically a microcontroller to interface it, and the transmitter
[14:46] <SpeedEvil> on:
[14:46] <SpeedEvil> aLeXBrEtOn
[14:47] <aLeXBrEtOn> the GPS...there is one on the ground and one in the balloon
[14:47] <aLeXBrEtOn> right?
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> no
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> you have a 'normal' GPS on the ground - one that displays position - so you can enter teh coordinates from the balloon, and drive to it
[14:47] <aLeXBrEtOn> ah just one of those Garmin hiking things?
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> something like that
[14:48] <aLeXBrEtOn> OK i see
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> or many car navigators let you enter a lat/lon
[14:48] <aLeXBrEtOn> thanks very much
[14:48] <aLeXBrEtOn> so the radio transmitter will be sending out co-orinates
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: the first bit - to the left - is that going mostly the right direction?
[14:48] <aLeXBrEtOn> ordinates *
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> alexk: yes
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> aLeXBrEtOn
[14:48] <aLeXBrEtOn> and we can read them via....
[14:49] <aLeXBrEtOn> some device is needed to decode the signals on the ground, right?
[14:49] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: no, its geading away at some offset
[14:49] <SpeedEvil> typically a reciever tuned to the correct frequency, possibly hooked through a soundcard to a laptop
[14:49] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: the spirograph bits are full turns I guess?
[14:50] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: where is the actual target point - or is it basically nothing to do with the course?
[14:51] <Laurenceb> its a long way past the top left corner
[14:51] <SpeedEvil> ah
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[14:52] <Laurenceb> need to compare to the drift during ascent
[14:53] <Laurenceb> hi steve
[14:53] <G8KHW_> Yo lb
[14:55] <Laurenceb> there was a missing - sign in the control loop
[14:55] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> Some of the aerodynamics data should still be quite usable?
[14:56] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> As a pessimistic l/d - did it have the servo hard over all the time latterly?
[14:57] <G8KHW_> Lb: what about the radio?
[14:57] <Laurenceb> not sure yet, havent looked at that
[14:57] <Laurenceb> theres no apparent physical damage to the radio
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> do you have records of internal temp?
[14:57] <aLeXBrEtOn> so guys
[14:57] <Laurenceb> nope
[14:57] <jcoxon> its teh evil coxon kilometre
[14:58] <jcoxon> it always strikes
[14:58] <hallam> edmoore: check email
[14:58] <aLeXBrEtOn> what receiving equipmentr is necessary?
[14:58] <aLeXBrEtOn> radio receiver?
[14:58] <jcoxon> yes
[14:58] <aLeXBrEtOn> some way of decoding
[14:58] <jcoxon> a laptop can do that
[14:58] <aLeXBrEtOn> how exactly?
[14:58] <aLeXBrEtOn> what software?
[14:58] <jcoxon> radio receivers are quite expensive so depending on who helps out on the launch they might help
[14:58] <jcoxon> fldigi perhaps
[14:59] <aLeXBrEtOn> for linux?
[14:59] <hallam> truetty also works and is perhaps a bit easier to get going on Windows, though fldigi is more capable
[14:59] <edmoore> hallam: no email eyt
[14:59] <edmoore> yet*
[14:59] <aLeXBrEtOn> any of 'em work on linux?
[14:59] <jcoxon> fldigi
[14:59] <hallam> yes, fldigi
[14:59] <jcoxon> mac linux and windows
[15:00] <aLeXBrEtOn> how much is a receiver then?
[15:00] <hallam> aLeXBrEtOn: cheapest receivers are wideband radio scanners ~£100 and up, make sure it supports USB or LSB mode
[15:00] <hallam> that's USB as in upper sideband, not universal serial bus
[15:00] <aLeXBrEtOn> thanks ;)
[15:00] <hallam> where are you based?
[15:00] <aLeXBrEtOn> UK
[15:00] <aLeXBrEtOn> south
[15:00] <edmoore> where abouts?
[15:00] <aLeXBrEtOn> reading
[15:00] <edmoore> cool
[15:01] <edmoore> Laurenceb is in guildford
[15:01] <edmoore> i'm sure he won't mind me telling you that
[15:01] <hallam> you'll be able to take advantage of the UKHAS receiving network
[15:01] <edmoore> i'm in chichester/cambridge
[15:01] <aLeXBrEtOn> receiving network?
[15:01] <hallam> i.e. people on this channel can receive your telemetry and upload it
[15:01] <G8KHW_> Bbl
[15:01] <hallam> there's an automatic map tracking thing, it's pretty cool
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[15:01] <jcoxon> hallam, still working on hte UKHAS receiveing network :-p
[15:01] <aLeXBrEtOn> wow
[15:02] <edmoore> hallam: still no email
[15:02] <jcoxon> but the latest version of the client is a lot better
[15:02] <aLeXBrEtOn> do ppl do that often?
[15:02] <jcoxon> just need to properly test it
[15:02] <hallam> though it is useful to have your own radio for testing, and the final part of recovery when it's transmitting on the ground and the signal doesn't go very far
[15:02] <aLeXBrEtOn> get others to receive?
[15:02] <hallam> edmoore: resent
[15:02] <jcoxon> aLeXBrEtOn, happily
[15:02] <hallam> aLeXBrEtOn: I'm not sure anyone has yet done a launch where they relied solely on other people at different locations to receive
[15:02] <hallam> but it's often used to complement
[15:03] <aLeXBrEtOn> hmmm
[15:03] <hallam> aLeXBrEtOn: odds are one of us will be able to come help with launch anyway, and bring a radio
[15:03] <aLeXBrEtOn> trouble is, we don't want to spend that much money
[15:03] <aLeXBrEtOn> wow thanks
[15:03] <aLeXBrEtOn> great
[15:03] <aLeXBrEtOn> :)
[15:04] <edmoore> who is 'we' out of interest aLeXBrEtOn ?
[15:04] <hallam> you could probably use the EARS or CUSF launch sites if you are flexible with dates and don't want the hassle or organising your own site, CAA permission and helium delivery
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> aLeXBrEtOn: where are you?
[15:04] <aLeXBrEtOn> doing the project with 2 friends
[15:04] <aLeXBrEtOn> reading, UK
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> oh
[15:05] <aLeXBrEtOn> 60 km west of london
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> anyway - reading through the wiki will get you a good start of ideas
[15:05] <hallam> yeah we're mostly UK here
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> though it may not be complete
[15:05] <aLeXBrEtOn> and also:
[15:05] Action: SpeedEvil looks at natrium42
[15:05] <aLeXBrEtOn> if we want to use GSM to complement
[15:05] <aLeXBrEtOn> how would that work?
[15:05] <hallam> either get an old mobile phone and the right cable to plug into your microcontroller, or use a GSM module
[15:06] <edmoore> sounds fair
[15:06] <hallam> farnell are selling GSM modules pretty cheap now
[15:06] <alexk> aLeXBrEtOn: we use SPOT for tracking
[15:06] <aLeXBrEtOn> does it work well?
[15:06] <alexk> at low altitudes the payload can also text its position
[15:07] <alexk> that is what we're about to test :)
[15:07] <aLeXBrEtOn> is GSM better than GPS then?
[15:07] <alexk> it's the first flight that would use it
[15:07] <aLeXBrEtOn> or complements?
[15:07] <hallam> aLeXBrEtOn: you still need the GPS
[15:07] <hallam> GSM replaces or complements the radio
[15:07] <hallam> although some GSM modules do have GPS built in, but they tend to be more expensive, and often don't work above 18km
[15:07] <SpeedEvil> GSM is communications only - phone
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> GPS is position
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> Though you can get bad positions from GSM in some cases. (+-200m)
[15:09] <hallam> aLeXBrEtOn: what kind of budget are you hoping for?
[15:09] <hallam> it's a hobby that's quite hard to start on an absolute shoestring, but once you have the initial equipment, further launches can be not too expensive
[15:10] <aLeXBrEtOn> hmmm ok thanks
[15:10] <aLeXBrEtOn> leaving now
[15:10] <hallam> later
[15:10] <aLeXBrEtOn> bye and thanks for the help
[15:10] <hallam> I'm off too, have to wrangle science week kids
[15:10] aLeXBrEtOn (n=Alexande@client-80-5-40-149.cht-bng-014.adsl.virginmedia.net) left irc:
[15:11] Nick change: hallam -> hallam|cavendish
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> I think my 'absolute shoestring' estimate was 50 quid or so.
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> This was for a foil balloon, made on the kitchen table, filled with natural gas, and with a cheap PAYG mobile as payload.
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> But, this doesn't actually do much.
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> and a few milliwatt 433MHz beeper for foxhunting
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> Once you start adding a 30 quid camera or two, it gets to the point where another 30-40 quid for a GPS transmitter so you don't lose it probably makes sense.
[15:24] <Laurenceb> foil?
[15:24] <Laurenceb> your crazy
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> why?
[15:24] <Laurenceb> it'll rip
[15:25] Action: SpeedEvil has a cunning plan.
[15:25] <Laurenceb> fairdoos
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> it's actually damn strong.
[15:26] <Laurenceb> I'm confused by this data... the 2D path and rate info suggest it was spiralling
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> If you don't allow edges to get exposed
[15:26] <Laurenceb> but the heading suggests not all the time
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> do you have gyro?
[15:26] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> what does that say about the circling?
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> oh - that'sa what you mwean by rate
[15:27] <Laurenceb> that it was spiralling all the time
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> heading - from GPS?
[15:27] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:28] <Laurenceb> I'm wondering if there was an issue with the wind correction
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> have you got logs of what it was 'thinking' ?
[15:29] <Laurenceb> I logged what it though heading and turn rate was
[15:29] <Laurenceb> and where it thought it should aim
[15:32] <Laurenceb> I havent retrived the wind data yet - Itried by gtkterm hang through all the data
[15:32] <Laurenceb> but it looked sensible
[15:32] <Laurenceb> however, the target isnt quite right
[15:32] <alexk> got delayed by road being blocked by paddyfest parade *facepalm*
[15:33] <Laurenceb> its as if its not accounting for wind to give an optimal route
[15:33] <Laurenceb> just aiming straight at ears
[15:34] <Laurenceb> leading me to susperct something is wrong with the wind
[15:35] <Laurenceb> that wonld account for no tie up between heading and rate
[15:35] Action: Laurenceb wants a GS406
[15:36] Action: Hiena wants 2 sq. m, 2mm stainless steel.
[15:37] <Laurenceb> kitchen?
[15:38] <Hiena> Jet engine.
[15:38] <Hiena> I have to upgrade from the tincan.
[15:39] <Hiena> But seems like the principle is working. Also have to buy more lighter refill bottle.
[16:02] <alexk> approaching our destination. weather: overcast. 5 degrees C. no snow this time :)
[16:05] <Laurenceb> how can I plot two functions with different ranges on the same graph? in gnuplot?
[16:07] <SpeedEvil> plot .... 'axes x2y2'
[16:07] <SpeedEvil> will give you a plot on the top and right axes
[16:08] <SpeedEvil> splot [] [] [0:20] "out.3d" using 1:2:7 with pm3d at st,"speeds.out" using 1:($2
[16:08] <SpeedEvil> ng 1:($4*10):(1) with lines
[16:08] <SpeedEvil> is anohter sort of way
[16:08] <Laurenceb> ok :P
[16:09] <Laurenceb> how can I control the data?
[16:09] <Laurenceb> as in - set the number of datapoint
[16:09] <SpeedEvil> what do you want to do?
[16:09] <SpeedEvil> plot "file" using 1:2, "file" using 1:4
[16:10] <SpeedEvil> will plot on the same graph fields 2 and 4 against 1
[16:10] <Laurenceb> sure
[16:10] <Laurenceb> sorry, not explaining well
[16:11] <Laurenceb> say theres 200 records and I want to use 1500
[16:11] <Laurenceb> is there some range of datapoints I can select?
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> plot [0:1000] [0:10] "file" using 1:2
[16:12] <SpeedEvil> will plot the first thousand datapoints on the x axis - even if there are only 100 in the file
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[16:19] <Laurenceb> ok.. looks like it was spirallying at a roughtly constant rate throughout the descent
[16:20] <Laurenceb> theres a few weird changes... but nothing else
[16:20] <Laurenceb> theres no step changes in the target heading, which sould result from the optimal descent code
[16:20] <alexk> we just arrived.
[16:20] <alexk> will set try to get video stream and images feed working
[16:21] <Laurenceb> and the wind is incorrect
[16:21] <Laurenceb> good luck
[16:21] <Laurenceb> it all leads me to suspect something went wrong with the wind or the optimal descent code
[16:21] <alexk> we've got wifi connection!
[16:22] <jcoxon> amazing
[16:22] <Laurenceb> cool
[16:22] <jcoxon> good photo stream
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[16:38] <SpeedEvil> Oooh - heliummy.
[16:38] <alexk> ok video feed is up. but unfotunately camera doesnt adjust too outdoor brightness
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[16:41] <alexk> hm vid cam is useless. we should get a better cam for next time
[16:41] Action: SpeedEvil gets completely black image.
[16:41] <Laurenceb> zion road?
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> But my DSL is broken
[16:41] <Laurenceb> me too
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[16:43] <Laurenceb> Lucknow ?!
[16:43] <Laurenceb> you have some weird place names
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[16:44] <SpeedEvil> And geometry
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> oooh - spot!
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[16:50] <alexk> we've got video! click play to watch :D
[16:50] <jcoxon> got it
[16:51] <jcoxon> a good speed
[16:52] <alexk> almost near required helium volume
[16:54] <Laurenceb> I've got it too
[16:54] <alexk> we're getting spot and cellular positions on the ground as you can see :D
[16:55] <Laurenceb> can hear a bit of sound as well
[16:55] Action: Laurenceb waves
[16:55] <alexk> yeah we've got no external mic
[16:56] <Laurenceb> ok we see you :P
[16:59] <rjharrison_> Looks bloody cold
[17:01] <Laurenceb> less snow than there was here a few weeks ago
[17:02] <alexk> it is... opening the lid to reset cut off timer
[17:04] <Laurenceb> hmf need to get a 3G modem so we can do this
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> well - GPRS is a couple of 100K jpegs/min
[17:06] <SpeedEvil> and 5 quid for 5 days - tmobile
[17:06] <SpeedEvil> oh - motion!
[17:08] <alexk> reglued the lid
[17:09] <alexk> launching in ~1min
[17:11] <rjharrison_> This is cool
[17:12] <rjharrison_> lots of posing shots been taken :)
[17:12] <SpeedEvil> how much traffic can the tracker take?
[17:12] <rjharrison_> quite allot as most of the traffic is offloaded via google
[17:12] <alexk> lol
[17:13] <alexk> how do i look? :P
[17:13] <rjharrison_> Cool
[17:13] <SpeedEvil> black here.
[17:13] <SpeedEvil> oh - working again
[17:14] <rjharrison_> Fine here
[17:14] <alexk> moving to launch. wish us luck
[17:14] <rjharrison_> ahh
[17:14] <rjharrison_> pic has gone
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:14] <rjharrison_> here comes the action shot
[17:15] <rjharrison_> white balloon on white background
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> On overexposed pic :)
[17:15] <Laurenceb> takeoff
[17:15] <rjharrison_> And we're off
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> whee!
[17:16] <Laurenceb> how often should it update?
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> I note that spot reported a couple of moderately seperated points
[17:16] <alexk> launched :)
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> was that just the spot locking?
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> A scale on hte google map'd be nice
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> is this the spot with integrated lies told to the module to carry more data?
[17:18] <rjharrison_> How often are updates from the on board trackers?
[17:20] <alexk> 4 mins
[17:20] <alexk> or more
[17:21] <rjharrison_> hehe
[17:21] <rjharrison_> cool
[17:21] <rjharrison_> I'll wait for the first update before headding off
[17:21] <alexk> stopping broadcast
[17:21] <alexk> we're wrapping up for move
[17:21] <jcoxon> alexk, not getting much on the tracker
[17:22] <jcoxon> oh wait
[17:22] <rjharrison_> jcoxon: is there any radio on board?
[17:22] <jcoxon> no, no radio
[17:23] <rjharrison_> alexk: what is the local time?
[17:23] <rjharrison_> Big diff on Cellular V SPOT
[17:24] <rjharrison_> I guess the SPOD will keep working whrn the cellular dies!
[17:29] <rjharrison_> update
[17:29] <rjharrison_> alt is very low
[17:30] <rjharrison_> 282 is a bit fixed
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[17:32] <SpeedEvil> spot has no alt does it?
[17:33] iNatrium (i=1872e821@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-46793bb48d97d798) joined #highaltitude.
[17:33] <iNatrium> en route home now
[17:33] <rjharrison_> I hope not
[17:33] <iNatrium> don't expect spot updates to be regular :P
[17:34] <rjharrison_> hi iNatrium. No alt on spod either
[17:34] <rjharrison_> Will login back in an hour
[17:34] <rjharrison_> good luck
[17:34] <iNatrium> it sends lat/lon, waits 2 mins, sends alt/heading/speed/temp and waits 2 mins and then starts over
[17:35] <rjharrison_> cool, I have my fingers crossed for you
[17:35] <iNatrium> and not all messages go through
[17:35] <iNatrium> thx :)
[17:35] <rjharrison_> bye 4 now
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[17:35] <iNatrium> later
[17:35] <jcoxon> iNatrium, i'm findin the tracker quite jumpy
[17:35] <jcoxon> when moving the map around
[17:36] <iNatrium> hmm, which browser/os?
[17:36] <jcoxon> mac firefox
[17:36] <jcoxon> and now seem to have lost the new points
[17:36] <jcoxon> my kml is fine in google earth
[17:38] <iNatrium> ok, i will investigate later
[17:38] <iNatrium> btw, all spot updates are here --> http://twitter.com/natrium42
[17:38] <iNatrium> i should make the embedded twitter auto-refresh
[17:41] <jcoxon> okay cool
[17:41] <jcoxon> twitter refresh is a good idea as well
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[17:48] <Laurenceb> how can I open a csv file in gnuplot?
[17:48] <Laurenceb> s/gnuplot/octave
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> I used awk to preprocess
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[18:00] <Laurenceb> hmm I used load
[18:00] <jcoxon> got another point
[18:01] <jcoxon> 12498m
[18:01] <Laurenceb> but I dont know what its loaded into
[18:01] <Laurenceb> cool, thats high
[18:02] <jcoxon> it gone 32km SE
[18:02] <jcoxon> and its heading in a good direction
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[18:08] <SpeedEvil> wow - all the way to brussels.
[18:09] Action: SpeedEvil wonders how many spots have gone this high.
[18:12] <Hiena> Any google maps tracklog aviable?
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> somewhat broken for me - the tracker
[18:13] <Hiena> Well, time for the truth, the new GPS speedup compiled, time to fix the programmer and upload to the PIC.
[18:15] <Hiena> Also, did i mentioned, how funny error di i found?
[18:17] <Hiena> The previous version of the GPS speedup worked fine at the university, but failed at me. Bot PIC was from the same series and a same lot. When i measured the timings, found my PIC running lower speed. But i developed the code on the university's PCB.
[18:18] <jcoxon> hmmmm definitely going to need radio onboard atlantic halo
[18:19] <Hiena> Uploaded the code a brand new PIC showed the university's PIC running at higher speed.
[18:19] <Hiena> How much is the chance to start developing a code on a wrong PIC?
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: you've probaly got a cock problem
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> the oscillator ofpeating at a different multiple for example
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> 5th instead of 3rd overtone or vice-versa
[18:22] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, cock problem?
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> minor differences in capacitance or layout can do this.
[18:22] <Hiena> It's using the built in oscllator.
[18:22] <jcoxon> you mean clock?
[18:22] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[18:22] <jcoxon> oh come on :-)
[18:23] Action: SpeedEvil sucks at typing.
[18:23] <jcoxon> so do i
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> eeepc is causing me problems due to smaller size.
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> The internal clock is quite tightly specified IIRC
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> is one out of spec?
[18:24] <Hiena> Yup. It's running around 5.5-6 MHz instead 4MHz.
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> You're sure you've set the right fuse bits?
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[18:26] <jcoxon> hey alexk
[18:26] <Hiena> Sure. Because i got a similar error with the brand-new PICs. I tested 9 piece, all of them running right on 4MHz. Only the university one fails.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> hey.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> Congrats on launch
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> odd.
[18:27] <Laurenceb> congrates
[18:27] <Laurenceb> hmm theres something odd with my data - the servo isnt controlling the wing
[18:27] <Laurenceb> or at least it is at times, but not very well
[18:27] <alexk> hey. Typing from my iPhone. Only edge in this area :\
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> cold temp?
[18:28] <Laurenceb> it looks like a knot broke
[18:28] <jcoxon> alexk, not getting many updates
[18:28] <Laurenceb> just taken a look inside
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: for any reason?
[18:28] <Laurenceb> it could have happened when it was retrieved from the tree
[18:28] <Laurenceb> but from the ground the wing appeared quite slack in the tree
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> impact?
[18:29] <alexk> Yeah. We'll see how it goes...
[18:29] <Laurenceb> not sure... the knot has just gone
[18:29] <Laurenceb> there should be a knot to stop it slipping through the serve
[18:29] <jcoxon> alexk, how often does it attempt transmission
[18:29] <jcoxon> ?
[18:30] <alexk> every 4mins
[18:31] <jcoxon> interesting, so we are dropping a lot of attempts
[18:31] <SpeedEvil> alexk: is this the unmodded spot - or the one with the inbuilt lies to transmit more data?
[18:31] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, its teh hacked spot
[18:31] <jcoxon> the*
[18:32] <alexk> yup
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[18:33] <alexk> It did send telemetry at quite low altitude
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> alexk: what's the recommeded operating temp of the spot thing?
[18:33] <alexk> Now we'll just wait and see :)
[18:34] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: just dismanted the winch, theres freying on the nylon line where the knot should be to jam it in the servo
[18:34] <Laurenceb> looks like it came undone somehow
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[18:34] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: what would it have done after crash?
[18:34] <Laurenceb> maybe, in the tree
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> might it have been still wiggling the servo?
[18:35] <Laurenceb> but I noticed the lines were quite slack from the ground
[18:35] <Laurenceb> so I'm guessing it came undone in flight
[18:35] <Laurenceb> just looking at some ffts of the data
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> burst shouldn't be a great shock.
[18:35] <Laurenceb> there are periods when the servo is controlling the flight
[18:35] <alexk> not sure about op temp. Natrium would know
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> What was the peak velocity?
[18:35] <Laurenceb> but the proportionality constant is so low
[18:35] <Laurenceb> not sure
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> I mean after drop
[18:36] <SpeedEvil> maxq I suppose
[18:36] <Laurenceb> ~20m/s
[18:36] <SpeedEvil> that's not really huge
[18:36] <Laurenceb> it was probably during the scent that it came undone
[18:36] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if the nylong got brittle in the cold?
[18:36] <Laurenceb> as it was spinning a lot and there was tons of load
[18:36] <Laurenceb> no, it actually slipped undone
[18:36] Action: jcoxon predicts a landing just south of Preston 43.335 -80.413
[18:37] <Laurenceb> you can see the fraying on the line where the knot was
[18:37] <Laurenceb> I should have poured CA over it
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[18:40] <SpeedEvil> Is this in addition to the control error?
[18:40] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:40] <Laurenceb> there plenty of issues
[18:40] <jcoxon> one of those things - need to really try it to find the issues
[18:41] <jcoxon> looking forward to flight 2!
[18:41] <SpeedEvil> I'd wonder about a series of launches
[18:41] <SpeedEvil> put a balloon up to 300m or so, on a string, and winch the glider up a few times
[18:43] <Laurenceb> yeah, the problem is its not very landable
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> hmm. It tends to fall on its nose?
[18:44] <Laurenceb> and smash the enclsoure , yes
[18:44] <Laurenceb> I need a carbon fibre enclosure
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> carbon is somewhat overkill :)
[18:45] <Laurenceb> so it can resist landings
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> You need EPE foam
[18:46] <Laurenceb> hmm its a bit of a design problem atm
[18:46] <Laurenceb> the two vertical spars that support the tronisc dont meet
[18:46] <Laurenceb> so the enclosure has to be very strong
[18:47] <Laurenceb> not sure if this problem is solvable
[18:48] <Laurenceb> without a really complex carbon fibre enclosure design
[18:49] <Laurenceb> theres a lot to be said for parafoils in this respect
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> http://epphobbies.com/
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> I've got some of this stuff
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> it's fun.
[18:50] <Laurenceb> sure but eep isnt very strong
[18:51] <SpeedEvil> works for me.
[18:51] <Laurenceb> I'll have to think about it... theres got to be a design that works
[18:51] <SpeedEvil> It's quite strong - it just deforms a lot
[18:51] <Laurenceb> yeah thats the problem
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> My design uses it with a EPP outside, with a glass-fibre egg, inside which is a CF frame, mounted on more EPP
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> for my electronics.
[18:53] <Laurenceb> hmm
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> hopefully withstand 90MPH impacts.
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> Wreck the servos of course
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> but the MEMs sensors, pressure, accel, ... should be fine
[18:56] <Laurenceb> hmm I think if I can get carbon fibre angle profiles it should be buildable
[18:57] <Laurenceb> wheres a good place to buy?
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> I wouldn't - I'd put a couple of layers of glass on the corners.
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> dunno
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> who was it that had some prepeg CF
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> edmoore?
[18:59] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: that wouldnt solve the problem
[18:59] <Laurenceb> the flaw in the present design is the foam is loadbearing
[18:59] <Laurenceb> I need to make a chassi for the electronics
[18:59] <Laurenceb> so the foam is just use for insulation
[19:00] <Laurenceb> if I can get 90 degree angle profiles in carbon fibre, that would be perfect
[19:00] <Laurenceb> not quite sure how to join them - if epoxy is strong enough
[19:00] <hallam|cavendish> edmoore: are you about?
[19:01] Nick change: hallam|cavendish -> hallam
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> CF
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> is also quite brittle
[19:01] <Laurenceb> hi hallam: where can I buy carbon fibre profiles?
[19:01] <Laurenceb> hmm thats a point, but it needs to be as light as poss
[19:02] <Laurenceb> maybe alu would be better from the point of view of survivability
[19:02] <hallam> Laurenceb: no clue, sorry
[19:03] <Laurenceb> I'm trying to redisign the rogallo so it can land without smashing the enclosure
[19:07] <Laurenceb> hallam: launching soon?
[19:08] <hallam> looks like tomorrow 7am
[19:08] <hallam> making arrangements now
[19:09] <Laurenceb> cool
[19:09] <Laurenceb> how well does epoxy fix aluminium?
[19:10] <jcoxon> hallam, can you send me the telem string
[19:11] <jcoxon> so i can track and test the DL Client
[19:13] <natrium42> back home, waiting for cellular module update
[19:15] <shellevil> lau: horribly complex subject - the brief version is - scratch it up with a wire brush, and clamp, and it'll be OK, unless you expose it to the weather for months.
[19:16] <Laurenceb> hmm
[19:16] <Laurenceb> I'm not sure if I'm wasting my time with this
[19:16] <Laurenceb> and should go for parafoil
[19:17] <shellevil> parafoil is vulnerable to not opening right
[19:17] <natrium42> bbl food
[19:17] <shellevil> at least rollo can't do that easily
[19:18] <Laurenceb> if its pre deployed
[19:18] <akawaka> how is that launch going?
[19:19] <jcoxon> akawaka, was a good launch, having some issues with the SPOT transmitter
[19:19] <jcoxon> so no updates for an hour or so
[19:19] <jcoxon> but there is still backup gsm
[19:19] <hallam> jcoxon: standard badger telemetry on one channel alternating between Domino and 50 baud RTTY
[19:20] <hallam> other channel is the star tracker which isn't sending anything that would be useful for the tracking network
[19:20] <hallam> badger is 7-bit ascii
[19:21] <jcoxon> have they implemented the $$ start characters
[19:21] <hallam> star tracker is 7-bit ascii, 200 baud rtty
[19:21] <hallam> badger has $$
[19:21] <hallam> star tracker also has $$ occasionally
[19:21] <edmoore> jcoxon: it's ukhas standard compliant
[19:21] <jcoxon> okay great
[19:21] <jcoxon> i shall track away then :-)
[19:21] <edmoore> what is that standard called btw?
[19:21] <hallam> they're both on 434.650, different channels
[19:21] <edmoore> UKHASTLM01
[19:21] <jcoxon> DL CLlient?
[19:22] <jcoxon> i'm really pleased with version 2, it can setup fldigi for you :-)
[19:22] <edmoore> leaves room for another 98 telemetry standards
[19:22] <edmoore> ok that's neat
[19:22] <jcoxon> so you just need to run fldigi and then run the client
[19:22] <jcoxon> and then tune it to the right bit
[19:22] <edmoore> does the code exist somewhere?
[19:22] <jcoxon> it also every 15 mins sends an update to the server
[19:22] <edmoore> right, off to plodge
[19:22] <edmoore> bbiab
[19:23] <jcoxon> so we are going to plot listeners
[19:23] <jcoxon> yeah its on the atlantic halo wiki
[19:23] <jcoxon> http://spacenear.us/wiki/doku.php?id=dlistening:client
[19:23] <Laurenceb> bbl
[19:24] <jcoxon> i'll try and get rjharrison tracking to test 2 inputs
[19:30] <edmoore> hallam: plodge have nothing from Kirwan
[19:40] <hallam> crap
[19:40] <hallam> edmoore: does that make us totally screwed, or do you think they could be sweet-talked?
[19:40] <edmoore> it depends *entirely* on who is on duty tomorrow
[19:41] <edmoore> 3/4 of them won't be sweet-talked
[19:41] <edmoore> I am trying to come up with a plan...
[19:41] Action: hallam crosses fingers
[19:41] <jcoxon> go to EARs
[19:42] <jcoxon> oh wait - helium supply - sorry
[19:45] <natrium42> got spot message
[19:45] <natrium42> it's landed
[19:46] <natrium42> no lat/lon yet, though
[19:46] <hallam> hooray
[19:46] <jcoxon> hehe
[19:46] <jcoxon> no gsm?
[19:46] <hallam> natrium42: was the spot working intermittently during the flight, or only on the ground?
[19:47] <natrium42> it always works intermittently
[19:47] <natrium42> simplex sucks
[19:47] <natrium42> but, probably enough for first transatlantic
[19:48] <natrium42> need to get the logs to evaluate
[19:48] <jcoxon> natrium42, yeah it'll be enough coupled with HF
[19:48] <natrium42> yeah
[19:48] <natrium42> iridium will be win :)
[19:50] <natrium42> ok, got position
[19:50] <natrium42> :)
[19:50] <natrium42> via gsm
[19:50] <jcoxon> where?
[19:55] <natrium42> 43.527767,-80.560287
[19:55] <natrium42> going to head out, it's pretty close to home
[19:56] <natrium42> 11km away from home
[19:56] <jcoxon> okay cool
[19:56] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:56] <jcoxon> no where near my prediction :-p
[19:57] <hallam> I keep thinking of Canada as North but it's really not
[19:58] <shellevil> :)
[19:58] <hallam> looks a bit foresty, hope the recovery goes well!
[19:59] Action: shellevil passes natrium42 a trained bear.
[20:02] <jcoxon> hallam, it gets quite north near the top :-p
[20:06] <akawaka> oh this is natriums balloon?
[20:06] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:07] <jcoxon> the friday launch only half went ahead
[20:07] <jcoxon> laurence launched but cusf didn't
[20:07] <jcoxon> they might launch tomorrow
[20:07] <hallam> only if we can get helium :/
[20:09] <akawaka> Laurence launched!
[20:11] <edmoore> hallam: is everything in the IfM that needs to be?
[20:11] <hallam> yes
[20:11] <edmoore> Can we know tonight that the badger works etc?
[20:11] <hallam> yes
[20:11] <hallam> I'll go and test the badger again
[20:11] <hallam> have tested the star tracker multiple times
[20:11] <hallam> I was wondering if we could get anyone Important to twist the porters' arm
[20:12] <edmoore> who, between 8am on a saturday night and 6am on a sunday morning
[20:12] <hallam> exactly :(
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> Elvis.
[20:12] <hallam> Madsen doesn't have Churchill connections, does he?
[20:13] <edmoore> the kind of influence the master is is kind of orthogonal to the H&S issues of helium access
[20:13] <edmoore> master has*
[20:13] <hallam> still, the porters would probably listen to the master, but it isn't a social time to call him
[20:15] <Tigga> he forgot to tell porters about key?
[20:15] <Tigga> eek
[20:15] <edmoore> yes
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[20:16] <hallam> Kirwan won't be getting a christmas card from me this year
[20:16] <hallam> edmoore: shall I go to the IfM and check on the badger etc?
[20:16] <edmoore> yes definitely
[20:16] <hallam> ok will do so now
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[20:17] <edmoore> not to harp on, but it's very specifically important that that gets soon, so we actually know it works
[20:17] <edmoore> otherwise we'll arse it up again
[20:22] <akawaka> star tracker?
[20:25] <edmoore> to work out your attitude based on star positions
[20:26] <edmoore> small camera takes pictures of space, a decent chunk of signal processing deconvolves and does some inference, and returns so polar co-ordinates on the stars it can see. then you compare that to star tables and figure out what you're looking at, and therefore the attitude
[20:26] <akawaka> all self built?
[20:26] <edmoore> it's hallam's master's thesis
[20:27] <edmoore> yes
[20:27] <akawaka> nice work
[20:30] <akawaka> probably an expensive thing to buy, right?
[20:30] <edmoore> indeed. That's why he's developing it
[20:31] <edmoore> they normally cost $$$$$$$ partly because sattelite builders will pay for it I guess
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> they aren't fundamentally hard to make.
[20:34] <akawaka> i doubt they are ever attached to anything that doesn't cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> And haven't been for maybe a decade, depending on how you measure things.
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> it's just - very small market
[20:38] <Tigga> edmoore: any more helium news
[20:38] <Tigga> ?
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[20:46] <edmoore> Tigga: not yet
[20:46] <Tigga> without being a pain in the arse - will we find out tonight, or is it a tomorrow morning job?
[20:48] <edmoore> there won't be a launch if it takes till tomorrow morning
[20:51] <edmoore> if that answers your question
[21:00] <Laurenceb> hello
[21:00] Action: Laurenceb back
[21:04] <Laurenceb> how do I plot a line in 3D with gnuplot?
[21:07] <edmoore> plot3d
[21:07] <edmoore> iirc
[21:08] <Laurenceb> yeah thats what I thought
[21:08] <Laurenceb> ... maybe an issue elsewhere
[21:09] <Laurenceb> hmm isnt that for surfaces?
[21:11] <Laurenceb> aha splot
[21:17] <Tigga> kinda like splat... but deeper
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[21:34] <natrium42> payload recovered from tree
[21:34] <natrium42> back home, going to check if spy pen recorded anything
[21:38] <Laurenceb> nice
[21:38] <Laurenceb> how high?
[21:38] <Laurenceb> - in tree
[21:48] <Laurenceb> hmm I'm just looking at the rogallo data some more... I think the wind estimation certainly screwed up
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[21:52] <Tigga> hi hallam
[21:52] <Tigga> you seen latest emails flying?
[22:01] <jcoxon> whats the update about tomorrow?
[22:02] <Tigga> currently some doubters on the email list, and we need to know about helium from edmoore
[22:03] <Tigga> I think everything is just about ready, should have enough people to launch (6)... hopefully the launch side will win the email argument and we'll get lucky with helium
[22:04] <hallam> Iain may or may not come to the launch, which would be 5, unless Sal or someone else can show. I still think that is definitely enough
[22:04] <hallam> esp. with everything so ready
[22:05] <jcoxon> hallam, i'll provide remote support :-p
[22:06] <Laurenceb> I may be able to as well
[22:06] <Laurenceb> but only if is south of here and quite high
[22:06] <hallam> thanks jcoxon, that will really be useful
[22:06] <hallam> Laurenceb: it should be
[22:07] <Laurenceb> cool
[22:07] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, oooo can i persuade you to run my client
[22:08] <Laurenceb> k
[22:08] <jcoxon> did you know i can hear your local repeater
[22:08] <jcoxon> on 70cm
[22:08] <Laurenceb> really
[22:08] <Laurenceb> what frequency?
[22:08] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:09] <Laurenceb> what exact frequ?
[22:09] <jcoxon> 433.3
[22:10] <hallam> Tigga: there is something quite important
[22:10] <Tigga> mass?
[22:11] <hallam> can we meet up tonight to check that your laptop will work for the receiving?
[22:11] <Tigga> um
[22:11] <Tigga> I am going to the pub
[22:11] <Tigga> but I can take my laptop with me
[22:11] <hallam> hehe
[22:11] <hallam> are you going to get properly plastered?
[22:11] <hallam> could do afterward if not
[22:11] <Tigga> probably just a couple of pints
[22:11] Action: Laurenceb hits gnuplot
[22:11] <hallam> or you could drop your laptop at the ifm before or after
[22:11] <hallam> (i'm here now getting everything ready to go)
[22:11] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, let me just add a config file and will send you a copy
[22:12] <Laurenceb> ok
[22:12] <Tigga> one hour?
[22:12] <Laurenceb> warning: Axis range undefined due to improper data values. NaN? Inf?
[22:12] <hallam> sure
[22:12] <Tigga> maybe 1 and a half
[22:12] <hallam> no worries, i'll be here
[22:12] <Tigga> ok
[22:12] <Tigga> when are you planning on sleeping
[22:12] <hallam> do you have my phone number to get in?
[22:12] <Tigga> good point
[22:12] <Tigga> now
[22:12] <Tigga> no
[22:12] <hallam> midnight ish maybe - I didn't wake up until 2 today
[22:13] <Tigga> okies
[22:13] <Tigga> number?
[22:13] <hallam> check pm
[22:13] <Tigga> kk
[22:20] <hallam> edmoore: are you okay to drive stuff from IfM to Chu tomorrow a.m.
[22:20] <hallam> ?
[22:20] <Laurenceb> hmm why does circling in a strong wind cause periodic stalling?
[22:21] <Laurenceb> that corresponds with the same position in each spiral
[22:21] <hallam> is it getting heading and/or airspeed information from GPS?
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> why do you think it's stalling?
[22:22] <Laurenceb> altitude drops suddenly
[22:22] <hallam> Laurenceb: if you want an exercise in frustration, look up the infamous "downwind turn stall" in pilot forums
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> naah
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> does it correlate with attempted control inputs?
[22:22] <hallam> Laurenceb: do you have an actual airspeed sensor?
[22:22] <Laurenceb> no
[22:22] <hallam> then you have to be very careful
[22:23] <Laurenceb> hallam: it happens each time I start turning downwind
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> he hasn't got enough control authority to stall in theory AIUI
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> what altitude?
[22:23] <hallam> if you try to keep constant groundspeed, of course you will stall in a strong wind, i'm sure you know that
[22:23] <Laurenceb> cant you say the air forms an inertial frame
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> yes
[22:23] <hallam> yes you can
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> it does
[22:24] <hallam> but try telling some of the pilot forum people that
[22:24] <Laurenceb> so why does it stall at a certain point in each turn
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> if you're referred to the ground - trying to keep a constant speed - ...
[22:24] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: the ground is removed
[22:24] <Laurenceb> - it does everything with airspeed/heading
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: not if you're a human, and looking at it
[22:24] <hallam> where does the flight control logic get its airspeed and heading information?
[22:24] <Laurenceb> from the ascent gps data
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: and flying 'this looks like 80 knots'
[22:25] <Laurenceb> the servo appears to have broken
[22:25] <Laurenceb> - a knot came loose as I forgot to CA it
[22:25] <hallam> if I were you I'd look at the transformation between received gps data and computed airspeed / heading
[22:26] <Laurenceb> sure, thats got a few glitches
[22:26] <Laurenceb> but that doesnt have anything to do with the stalling
[22:26] <Laurenceb> as the control inputs werent working
[22:26] <Laurenceb> so its just spirallyin
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> the control inputs weren't functionin g correctly
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> are you sure they weren't doing anything at all
[22:27] <Laurenceb> and stalling about 90 degrees after each time its been pointing upwind
[22:27] <hallam> in any axis?
[22:27] <Laurenceb> yaw
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> wings slack doing wierd things to trim, and the remaining control authority tipping it into stall
[22:27] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: there were a few occasions where it was working a bit
[22:28] <Laurenceb> does to the nylon cord sticking on the servo I guess
[22:28] <Laurenceb> you can see lots of absesion
[22:29] <Laurenceb> *abrasion
[22:29] <Laurenceb> its odd - there were intervals where it wasnt stalling at all, then near the ground its stalling a lot due to heavy turbulence in the last 500m
[22:32] <Laurenceb> it seems to be how do I select a subset of datapoint to graph?
[22:33] <Laurenceb> e.g. plot only points 700 to 800
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> plot [700:800] "file"
[22:35] <Laurenceb> that does work for 3D line plots
[22:35] <Laurenceb> or 2D for that matter
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> works for any - but only sets the x axis
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> plot [] [700:800] "file"
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> to do y
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> plot [:] [700:800] "file"
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> or is it
[22:36] <Laurenceb> nonono
[22:36] <Laurenceb> I want to select datapoints
[22:36] <Laurenceb> not axis ranges
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> Ok - then it's more messy
[22:37] <SpeedEvil> plot "file" using 1:($2>10?1/0:$3)
[22:37] <SpeedEvil> or something
[22:37] <SpeedEvil> using the fact that 1/0 is undefined, so the point in question doesn't get plotted
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> that plots every datapoint from the third column, whee the second column is greater than 10
[22:39] <Laurenceb> using 5:6 with linespoints
[22:39] <Laurenceb> is what I've got atm
[22:39] <Laurenceb> so how do I change that?
[22:39] <SpeedEvil> what do you want to do?
[22:40] <Laurenceb> 5 and 6 are lat and long
[22:40] <Laurenceb> I want to plot the course over set intervals
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> set intervals?
[22:41] <Laurenceb> e.g. 700 to 800 seconds
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> you have it logged once per second?
[22:42] <Laurenceb> yes
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> or what field is seconds in
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> ok - IIRC field 0 is seconds
[22:43] <Laurenceb> it isnt there
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> err
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> line number
[22:43] <Laurenceb> right
[22:43] <Laurenceb> so how do I acess it?
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> So something like plot "file" using 5:(($0>500&&$0<600))?$6:1/0)
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> Though I've probably got the conditional operator the wrong way round
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> or you cut the file apart and do it externally
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> and I'm not 100% sure that's a valid binary operator
[22:45] <Laurenceb> appears to work
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> ah yes
[22:46] <Laurenceb> thanks
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> see help using
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:46] Action: Laurenceb gets back to looking at spirals
[22:47] <Laurenceb> hallam: so this downwind turn stall, does it exist?
[22:47] <hallam> I say no
[22:47] <hallam> obviously there's debate about it
[22:47] <Laurenceb> it appears to be what I'm seeing
[22:47] <hallam> my intuition says no, and I've never noticed it while flying
[22:47] <Laurenceb> maybe the airframe is more vulnerable to gusts?
[22:47] <hallam> that's possible
[22:47] <hallam> hm
[22:48] <Laurenceb> what do gusts look like?
[22:48] <hallam> so we've assumed that the air is an inertial frame
[22:48] <hallam> but if you take gusts into account, it isn't
[22:48] <Laurenceb> are they asymmetrical?
[22:48] <hallam> I think gusts are mostly aligned with the wind
[22:48] <Laurenceb> e.g. steep rising endge
[22:48] <SpeedEvil> you're assuming these turns - in stationary air - would be circular
[22:48] <Laurenceb> yeah
[22:48] <SpeedEvil> if they're wobbly however.
[22:48] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: looks like they are
[22:48] <Laurenceb> - circular
[22:48] <hallam> don't know how it looks against time
[22:49] <SpeedEvil> if the thing is unstable in pitch for example, as well as turning
[22:49] <hallam> even without the rising edge stuff, though
[22:49] <Laurenceb> if its a sharp rise they gradual fall off - seems likely
[22:49] <SpeedEvil> or there is some wierd motion
[22:49] <Laurenceb> then back gusts would cause more issues
[22:49] <hallam> if the gusts are lined up with the wind, then when you're flying perpendicular to the wind they'll affect the airframe differently to when you're parallel
[22:50] <hallam> why did I just turn the hot glue gun on? I was going to glue something, but what...
[22:50] <Laurenceb> hmm the stall is always at about 45 degrees clockwise from the wind
[22:50] <Laurenceb> and its spiralling clockwise
[22:51] <Laurenceb> so about 4 seconds after its been pointing windwards
[22:51] <SpeedEvil> would there have been an attempted control input then?
[22:51] <Laurenceb> yes, but its not there in the data
[22:51] <Laurenceb> if you fft its absent
[22:51] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[22:52] <Laurenceb> there are intervals where control inputs work, guess its the string jamming
[22:52] <Laurenceb> fft makes a good tool for searching
[22:52] <Laurenceb> - look for the same frequency as the spiralling
[22:53] <SpeedEvil> are you sure the varying spiral frequency (if) isn't throwing htat off?
[22:57] <Laurenceb> yeah it is
[22:57] <Laurenceb> but still you can see peaks in the heading
[22:57] <Laurenceb> that arent the in the rate
[22:57] <jcoxon> damn still need rob to fix the tracker
[22:57] <Laurenceb> they only match up ina few sections of data
[22:57] <hallam> brb
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[22:58] <Laurenceb> the stalls are causing problems with the extended kalman filter that estimates airspeed and glide ratio
[22:58] <Laurenceb> causing a sanity check to fail
[22:59] <Laurenceb> and a section of code to be deactivated, and due to that the wrong windspeed to be loaded into the air heading calculation
[23:00] <Laurenceb> after each stall the altitude drop is very low or zero
[23:00] <Laurenceb> which screw it up
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> as it's dropping in speed getting ready for a new stall?
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> and trading speed for altitude
[23:00] <Laurenceb> yes
[23:00] <Laurenceb> - it increases in speed
[23:01] <Laurenceb> interestingly the overall glide performance isnt strongly effected by the rate of stalls
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> I can almost see how that works.
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> I think it slightly falls apart by increased wing loading
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> during the non-stalls
[23:03] <Laurenceb> well the high airspeed causes more drag
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> causing performance to be poorer than it might otherwise be
[23:04] <natrium42> looks like the venus gps has 18km bug
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> :/
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> Not however an issue for what I was interested in
[23:05] <natrium42> i will certainly compain to my contact
[23:05] <natrium42> :P
[23:05] <natrium42> "ohai, tested your gps above 18km and it's not working"
[23:06] <jcoxon> natrium42, just stopped working at 18km?
[23:06] <natrium42> yep
[23:06] <Laurenceb> that sucks
[23:06] <Laurenceb> time for ublox5 I guess
[23:06] <natrium42> and flight computer was programmed not to send anything via SPOT when there is no gps fix
[23:07] <jcoxon> hmmmm
[23:07] <Laurenceb> ah makes ense
[23:07] <Laurenceb> http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2933/shot1still.jpg
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> you diddn't use the original GPS then?
[23:07] <jcoxon> what shall we do for atlantic halo?
[23:07] <natrium42> however i think that there maybe a problem with reduced RF power for SPOT, since i expected more packets to get through
[23:07] <natrium42> will have to talk to mc- about it and see what he thinks
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> or you mean the GPS in SPOT was a venus
[23:07] <natrium42> SpeedEvil, the original gps module of spot was not used
[23:08] <natrium42> jcoxon, i got a ublox and lassen iq
[23:08] <natrium42> could use those
[23:08] <jcoxon> i like ublox personally
[23:08] <Laurenceb> me too
[23:08] <Laurenceb> lassen iq sucks
[23:09] <Laurenceb> incapable of running anywhere theres no sats in view
[23:09] <Laurenceb> basically
[23:09] <Laurenceb> - if you do even for a minute it seems to have screwed ram and needs power cycling
[23:10] <natrium42> however my ublox is in a form of a module for gumstix :P
[23:10] <jcoxon> natrium42, there are nice ublox on sparkfun
[23:11] <Laurenceb> but sold out atm
[23:11] <natrium42> might have to raid them then
[23:11] <natrium42> bah
[23:17] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, whats your OS for receiving?
[23:17] <Laurenceb> ubuntu
[23:17] <jcoxon> with fldigi?
[23:19] <Laurenceb> yes
[23:20] <jcoxon> are you busy right now, can i get you to test my client - will only take a few mins
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[23:26] <Laurenceb> soory
[23:27] <Laurenceb> on ze phone
[23:27] <jcoxon> np
[23:27] Action: SpeedEvil is free.
[23:27] <SpeedEvil> If you just need a random person
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[23:27] <jcoxon> yeah
[23:27] <jcoxon> need fldigi 3.10
[23:27] <jcoxon> and http://spacenear.us/wiki/doku.php?id=dlistening:client:radioclient3
[23:28] <edmoore> ok, looks like we're launching tomorrow
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[23:28] <hallam> edmoore: are you awake?
[23:28] <natrium42> yo hallam
[23:28] Action: SpeedEvil dls flfjfdjfdhjf
[23:28] <natrium42> when are you launching?
[23:29] <edmoore> hallam: yes
[23:29] <hallam> 6 to 7 am tomorrow
[23:29] <edmoore> but if you want me at IfM at 9am, not for much longer :)
[23:29] <edmoore> 5am*
[23:30] <hallam> edmoore: 5am at the IfM would be great
[23:30] <hallam> there's one thing though
[23:30] <hallam> when I said the badger was completely plug-in working, that was on word from Fergus who swore that was the case
[23:30] Action: SpeedEvil tries other download binary as this doesn't work.
[23:30] <hallam> when it came time to test it myself, I realised that I needed some more equipment
[23:30] <hallam> namely Badger, which I think is in your car
[23:31] <natrium42> whoa, so early?
[23:31] <edmoore> I know it's in my car.
[23:31] <natrium42> i thought you were an engineer
[23:31] <edmoore> We will have this conversation another time.
[23:31] <edmoore> For now, you need the badger.
[23:31] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: Ok - guess it's source time.
[23:32] <edmoore> hallam: before another fuck up, tell me that's it.
[23:32] <hallam> that's it
[23:32] <edmoore> ok
[23:33] <jcoxon> which distro?
[23:33] <hallam> just tested star tracker again with jeremy's laptop for the chase
[23:33] <hallam> all ok
[23:34] <hallam> should I bike up?
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: slackware
[23:35] <edmoore> I will deliver
[23:35] <edmoore> are you in the IfM?
[23:35] <hallam> yes
[23:35] <Laurenceb> institute of forced mems?
[23:35] <Laurenceb> *institute of forced memes?
[23:36] <hallam> our phones don't seem to work well together, so I'll wait outside - 10 mins? 15?
[23:36] <edmoore> I will be there at 11.55
[23:37] <hallam> ok
[23:37] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, source it is i guess
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: building prerequisites
[23:38] <jcoxon> really need 3.10 and xmlrpc
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> got the latest version
[23:39] <Laurenceb> I had to compile it
[23:39] <Laurenceb> you may have issues with portaudio
[23:39] <natrium42> pics of payload retrieval --> http://www.natrium42.com/gallery2/v/balloon/flight3/
[23:39] <SpeedEvil> Or if L is now free - I don't have any objection to him leaping in
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> as the downloads for this are annoyingly slow - due to 16Kbytes/s limit.
[23:40] Action: SpeedEvil stabs BTs rate adaption algorithm.
[23:40] <Laurenceb> hehe our payloads like trees recently
[23:40] <Laurenceb> erm yeah I'm free now
[23:40] <natrium42> we had to tie two long sticks to the window washer thingy we brought to reach it
[23:40] <jcoxon> fldigi 3.10?
[23:41] <natrium42> Laurenceb, that was my first tree landing :P
[23:41] <natrium42> perhaps there should be a cutdown from parachute
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[23:42] <natrium42> btw, nichrome cutdown worked, but it was triggered on time elapsing instead of altitude, since gps wasn't working
[23:43] <natrium42> balloon already had time to tangle with the strings :S
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: anything with the pen-cam?
[23:43] <Laurenceb> ok
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[23:44] <natrium42> SpeedEvil, for some reasone it only recorded just over 6 minutes
[23:44] <jcoxon> fldigi and http://spacenear.us/wiki/doku.php?id=dlistening:client:radioclient3
[23:45] <natrium42> descent rate was 4.789m/s, pretty good
[23:46] <natrium42> jcoxon, is it working?
[23:47] <jcoxon> natrium42, the client? yeah
[23:48] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: Better than mine, which does 9 seconds :/
[23:48] <natrium42> i was able to record over 1 hour in ground tests
[23:48] <SpeedEvil> Ah - heisenbugs.
[23:49] <SpeedEvil> IIRC the battery is _very_ slow to charge - 20h
[23:51] <natrium42> maybe i should use my own battery and wire it to a microcontroller
[23:51] <natrium42> it could restart it if it stops recording
[23:51] <Laurenceb> lol this thing sounds awful
[23:51] Action: SpeedEvil needs to finish his alternative to it.
[23:52] Action: Laurenceb is still trying to work out the stalling problem
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[23:57] <Laurenceb> hmm thus stall thing is really weird
[23:58] <Laurenceb> its not there all the time, but when it does accur its always at about 60 degrees past the point where we're facing directly into the wind
[23:58] <hallam> idea
[23:59] <hallam> at that attitude, the parafoil blocks reception of one GPS satellite, affecting the altitude solution
[23:59] <Laurenceb> oh god
[23:59] <Laurenceb> so obvious when you think about it
[23:59] <Laurenceb> yeah silly me, I had that exact effect on the ground
[00:00] --- Sun Mar 22 2009