highaltitude.log.20090312

[00:25] <Laurenceb> hello
[00:26] Action: Laurenceb just went to see watchmen
[00:27] <shellevil> was it awesome?
[00:28] <shellevil> Did you demand your money back?
[00:31] <Laurenceb> very god
[00:31] <Laurenceb> good
[00:34] <Laurenceb> odd
[00:35] <Laurenceb> sort of a mix of styles, serious and more comic booky
[00:39] <Laurenceb> lots of blue glowing peni
[00:41] Action: shellevil is grateful that his hasn't glowed blue.
[00:43] <Laurenceb> theres a reason its C18
[00:43] <Laurenceb> also orgy on hovership after the big red orgy button has been pressed
[00:44] <Laurenceb> and another involving multiple copies of dr manhattan from alternate universes...
[00:45] <Laurenceb> theres a bit of plot as well
[00:54] <Laurenceb> ending is almost like james bond but with a twist
[00:59] Action: shellevil is reminded of http://xkcd.com/123/
[01:01] <Laurenceb> the end is ery similar :P
[01:02] <Laurenceb> even involves hats
[01:05] <Laurenceb> the mikrokopter project is very interesting
[01:05] <Laurenceb> it seems everyone is going for really simple small angle approximations using integers then running the control loop at several KHz
[01:06] <Laurenceb> - for quadcopters
[01:09] Action: shellevil has the urge to make an electric flying carpet.
[01:12] <Laurenceb> whats the maximum thrust from a brushless motor?
[01:13] <Laurenceb> I've got a quite small one that gives 7N
[01:13] <Laurenceb> - 8'' prop
[01:15] <Laurenceb> maybe 30N with a large motor and prop
[01:16] <shellevil> you get really quite large motors :)
[01:16] <shellevil> the power required scales as expected with exhaust velocity ^2
[01:17] <shellevil> which means you need a really large carpet if you're wanting something that doesn't cause lots of noise and use lots of energy
[01:17] Action: Laurenceb is thinking flying saucer style with disk containing motors and central "pod"
[01:17] <shellevil> think of a large array of R/C heli blades, forex.
[01:18] <Laurenceb> probably better with small 2stroke engines
[01:18] <shellevil> there isn't an advantage over a 'conventional' helicopter with the same exhaust velocity - apart from the obvious redundancy
[01:19] <Laurenceb> and looks cooler
[01:21] <Laurenceb> maybe large rc plane 4 stroke engines
[01:22] <shellevil> If you don't care about noise and cost, model jet engines are quite adequate
[01:22] <shellevil> or specific fuel consumption
[01:22] <Laurenceb> erm that would be very rpicey for a hover platform
[01:22] <shellevil> as they have sucky compression ratio, they blow fuel out the back
[01:25] <shellevil> electric man carrying helis are quite possible
[01:25] <Laurenceb> the lipo cells are going to get pricey
[01:25] <shellevil> just sharply limited flight times compared to combustion ones
[01:25] <shellevil> that too
[01:26] <Laurenceb> I'd prefer an octocopter with 4 stroke engines
[01:27] <Laurenceb> still, a pain to start
[01:29] <Laurenceb> http://www.rcplanet.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=OSM37000&Show=TechSpecs
[01:30] <shellevil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CriCri some numbers I did indicated 15-20 min from an electric version might be plausible
[01:34] <Laurenceb> theoretically 8 of those could give 140Kg free lift
[01:34] <Laurenceb> but you need to include the frame and fuel
[01:34] <shellevil> though 1200Ah of lipo would set you back a few grand
[01:34] <Laurenceb> lol
[01:34] <Laurenceb> but some would 8 of those engines
[01:35] <shellevil> yeah - you don't really want to use too few unreliable engines in a copter thogh
[01:37] <Laurenceb> 16 or so would be practical
[01:38] <Laurenceb> but a real pain to start the engines
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[01:48] <Laurenceb> hmm you can get a setup with similar thrust using brushless for <£200
[01:48] <shellevil> yeah.
[01:49] <shellevil> batteries are lots cheaper for the petrol though
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[01:55] <Laurenceb> whole thing would probably cost ~£30K
[01:56] <Laurenceb> and fly for ~7 minutes :-/
[01:56] <shellevil> that's the problem with bats.
[02:01] <Laurenceb> https://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=8589&Product_Name=ZIPPY_Flightmax_5000mAh_5S1P_30C_
[02:01] <Laurenceb> use about 100 of those
[02:02] <Laurenceb> so maybe a bit cheaper, lets say £15K
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[02:07] <Laurenceb> theres got to be a place to buy huge lipo cells in bulk
[02:07] <shellevil> There is.
[02:07] <shellevil> It's called china.
[02:08] <Laurenceb> :P
[02:15] <Laurenceb> hmm http://www.himodel.com/engines/MAGNUM_5_cylinder_radial_Engine_for_Airplane_XL_400-5R.html
[02:15] <Laurenceb> same thing direct from china :P
[02:32] <Laurenceb> lipo is about $0.1/Wh in bulk
[02:32] <Laurenceb> sorry $1
[02:33] <Laurenceb> 0.1 would be nice :D
[02:42] <Laurenceb> heres always overunity and reactionless drive
[02:42] <Laurenceb> or searl effect
[02:44] <shellevil> the flipside of needing lots of batteries is that you don't need them to be rated for fast discharge
[02:44] <shellevil> but that doesn't help that much
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[07:16] <jcoxon> morning all
[07:35] <natrium42> brb
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[07:43] <natrium42> hi
[07:44] <natrium42> jcoxon, connected STX2 to flight computer
[07:44] <natrium42> seems to work fine, need to go outside and send a message
[07:44] <jcoxon> sweet
[07:44] <natrium42> STX2 = SPOT
[07:45] <jcoxon> how have you connected it?
[07:45] <jcoxon> directly to the module or via the gps port?
[07:45] <natrium42> directly
[07:45] <natrium42> MCU is desoldered
[07:45] <jcoxon> nice
[07:46] <natrium42> it's a simple hack too
[07:46] <natrium42> i need to make a writeup
[07:50] <jcoxon> okay
[07:50] <jcoxon> so i think we need to go over what needs to be done
[07:51] <natrium42> flight computer should be done within a few days
[07:51] <natrium42> still need to come up with mission script
[07:51] <natrium42> i.e. mission algorithm
[07:51] <jcoxon> yeah it might be worth working out the parameters
[08:01] <jcoxon> need to decide on gps power on/off, transmission freqency/times, ballast drop parameters, switch between 70cm and HF radio
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[08:01] <rjharrison> Morning all
[08:02] <jcoxon> good morning rjharrison
[08:02] <rjharrison> Been a bit busy over the last week or so
[08:02] <rjharrison> Still no good weather !!!
[08:02] <rjharrison> Bit frustrating this waiting to launch business
[08:03] <jcoxon> there is a tiny window on saturday afternoon :-p
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[08:04] <jcoxon> after lunch until the evening
[08:04] <rjharrison> Oooh. How tiny
[08:04] <rjharrison> Like doable
[08:05] <jcoxon> oh its changed
[08:05] <jcoxon> it has shifted north
[08:05] <edmoore> ?
[08:06] <jcoxon> oh there was a tiny pink window on saturday on wunderground
[08:06] <jcoxon> for the afternoon
[08:06] <jcoxon> but its shifted north upto scotland
[08:07] <rjharrison> Shame
[08:08] <rjharrison> This w/e would have been good. I'm not sure that I have any free for the next month :(
[08:09] <jcoxon> nah its too risky
[08:09] <jcoxon> just did a wyoming
[08:10] <rjharrison> Ok thanks
[08:10] <rjharrison> Have done a bit of work on the listener
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[08:11] <jcoxon> oh excellent
[08:12] <rjharrison> Hope to have at least the rudements of the form based tracking in place for Sunday
[08:12] <jcoxon> great
[08:12] <jcoxon> i'm wondering - perhaps we could try something on HF
[08:12] <natrium42> hi rjharrison
[08:13] <jcoxon> I've got this long antenna up now
[08:13] <jcoxon> perhaps 20m or something
[08:13] <jcoxon> and if it works test the listener that way
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[08:38] Action: natrium42 Zzz
[08:38] <jcoxon> night
[08:38] <natrium42> nite
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[08:40] <Laurenceb> hello
[08:41] <Laurenceb> what up?
[08:42] <Laurenceb> is there a launch this weekend?
[08:42] <jcoxon> hello Laurenceb
[08:42] <jcoxon> no, the JS is still blowing a gale
[08:42] <Laurenceb> fairdoos
[08:43] <Laurenceb> I need to arrange a "transport container"
[08:43] <Laurenceb> pref so I can take it on the tube
[08:43] <jcoxon> i thought there might be a window but its shifted north on the latest forecast and launches from cam are predicted to be very close or in the sea
[08:43] <Laurenceb> should be funny
[08:43] <Laurenceb> hopefully I wont end up shot 7 times in the head
[08:43] <jcoxon> hehe
[08:44] <Laurenceb> henry took a tesla coil so I should be fine
[08:49] <Laurenceb> http://wintard.freehost10.com/image/PiBeRational.gif
[08:50] <jcoxon> oh dear
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[10:20] Action: jcoxon is bored
[11:14] Action: shellevil gets out his bag of wooden plugs that arrived in the post today, and hammers one into jcoxon, filling the bored hole.
[11:45] <SpeedEvil> Today, I'm placing sheets of ply under the floorboards, then placing insulation on them, then floorboards down, then filling the screwholes in some boards that have been left to provide access. Fun.
[11:50] <jcoxon> sounds it
[11:50] <jcoxon> today i'm writing my elective portfolio and then i have teaching this afternoon for 3 hrs
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[14:13] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: #electronics are excited by 14/f/cali
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[14:15] <Laurenceb> if you know what I mean
[14:23] Nick change: gordonjc1 -> gordonjcp
[14:25] <Laurenceb> natrium42: about?
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: yes.
[15:25] Action: SpeedEvil went into post office to get passport application form.
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> Massive cross-promotion
[15:25] <Laurenceb> oh god
[15:25] <Laurenceb> those are a apin
[15:25] <Laurenceb> complete pain
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> post office credit card application form, ...
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> :/
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> I've gotten by without one so far, but probably need one soon.
[15:26] <Laurenceb> one bit of pen outside the text box or missformed letter and you have to start again
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> There is this 14/f/cali I need to visit :)
[15:26] <Laurenceb> also good luck getting your bank manager to sign it
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> doctor
[15:26] <Laurenceb> haha
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> they want 20 quid, but...
[15:26] <Laurenceb> too much info
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> In reality.
[15:27] <Laurenceb> also you need specialist passport photos
[15:27] <Laurenceb> its very annoying
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> I've got ID problems, as I've been ill for the past 4 years, and not keeping up. So _everything_ has lapsed
[15:27] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> And I need a diving license.
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> r
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> so passport.
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> :/
[15:30] Action: SpeedEvil stabs builders merchants.
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> WTF is so hard about online ordering and delivery
[15:31] <Laurenceb> ha
[15:31] <Laurenceb> they tend to be a bit out of date
[15:31] <Laurenceb> also its a bit more complicated arranging deliveries
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> ended up ordering floorboards from wicks, who do free delivery even
[15:31] <Laurenceb> ok
[15:31] <Laurenceb> buildbase is really weird
[15:32] <Laurenceb> I know a (female) friend who got jeered there
[15:32] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[15:32] <SpeedEvil> but - for your second and latter delivery...
[15:35] Action: SpeedEvil ponders replacing battery in his GPS. A) Duct tape and 18650. B) find an appropriate sized cell
[15:35] Action: Laurenceb still wants a hoverpad
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> would be fun
[15:36] <Laurenceb> yeah... I keep think about zero point energy thrusters....
[15:36] <Laurenceb> cant see why its not possible
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> happen to know of a source of variable sized li-po in the uk - for GPS?
[15:36] <Laurenceb> but my physics isnt quite up to the challenge
[15:36] <Laurenceb> fraid not
[15:37] <Laurenceb> ebay?
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> one option, yes.
[15:37] <Laurenceb> theres lots of chinese sites, but the UK ones are all silly prices
[15:38] <Laurenceb> basically theres particle/antiparticle pairs coming in and out of the vacuum
[15:38] <Laurenceb> if you could dump momentum into them...
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> that also implies free energy
[15:39] <Laurenceb> supposibly you have to inject enough energy into the system to split the pairs before you can dump momentum
[15:39] <Laurenceb> hmm not sure about that...
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> free energy, or what effectively reduces to a photon drive
[15:39] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:39] <Laurenceb> if you have to split them its photon drive
[15:39] <Laurenceb> if you can dump them back into the vacuum ....
[15:40] <Laurenceb> its almost like your swimming...
[15:40] <Laurenceb> but its different from aether
[15:42] <Laurenceb> say you bounce a photon off your particle pair
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> Fun fact. A lithium-primary photon rocket gets a delta-v of about 4mm/s
[15:48] <Laurenceb> lol
[15:48] <Laurenceb> think of space filled with pin pong balls
[15:48] <Laurenceb> you bounce objects off them to get thrust
[15:48] <Laurenceb> energy is still conserved
[15:49] <Laurenceb> obviously thats not quite the same thing, as the ping pong ball field would have to accelerate with the thruster
[15:49] <Laurenceb> but the energy argument still applies
[15:49] Action: SpeedEvil notes Laurenceb has just reinvented the aether.
[15:49] <Laurenceb> nope
[15:50] <Laurenceb> thats my point
[15:50] <Laurenceb> if the ping pong ball field is stationary, its aether
[15:51] <Laurenceb> what you actually have is ping pong balls pinging in and out of existence, and from the thrusters point of view their momentum distribution is centered on zero
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> batteryspace.com ordered from. LiFePO4 at $0.5/Wh. But very heavy ones. (74Wh/Kg)
[16:22] <Laurenceb> ooh nice
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> actually - shipping rates are ridiculous, so not ordered after all
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> ($60 for a 20g battey)
[16:23] <Laurenceb> yeah the >20C lipo cells are ~$1/Wh
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=4948
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[16:38] <Laurenceb> looks radioactive
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[18:23] <natrium42> edmoore!!1!1!!ln(e)
[18:23] <edmoore> yo
[18:24] <natrium42> any more rocket launches/
[18:24] <edmoore> not in the next 3 days
[18:26] <edmoore> and that's as far as my radar goes currently!
[18:32] Action: natrium42 adjusts edmoore's radar
[18:34] <edmoore> gerard got on sparkfun
[18:34] <edmoore> that's cool
[18:35] <natrium42> ooh
[18:35] <natrium42> awesome
[18:36] <edmoore> yep
[18:37] <natrium42> loool
[18:37] <natrium42> "The first high-altitude project I remember seeing is the Pegasus I. IIRC, that project attached radar reflectors to the payload as per some FAA regulation"
[18:37] <edmoore> 'the pressure sensor rated to 30kpa works to 10kpa.... oh and here are some awesome pictures'
[18:37] <edmoore> haha yeah
[18:37] <edmoore> noticed that
[18:37] <natrium42> FAA in the UK ? :P
[18:37] <edmoore> i'm sure the faa were delighted when james asked them permission
[18:37] <natrium42> XD
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[19:22] <gordonjcp> heh
[19:23] <gordonjcp> sounds like a good way to go with the "easier to get forgiveness than permission" thing
[19:23] <gordonjcp> when you get pulled up for it "Well I asked the FAA and they said they didn't care what I did..."
[19:28] <Hiena> Hehehehe... Remembers me, when i talked about my high altitude UL plane with some guy from the NASA at some conference. He liked the idea and said, when the first flight date fixed, send him mail two weeks before it and he will inform the NORAD. After that sentence both of us went silent and bursted out with laugh.
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[20:05] <mc-> natrium42, did you say you've got the STX module working?
[20:08] <mc-> I'll look for the reply in the logs
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[20:46] <natrium42> mc-, yes I connected it to MCU and it works
[20:46] <natrium42> computer didn't work CTS correctly
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[20:54] <natrium42> mc-, did you get my replies?
[20:58] <mc-> very good
[20:59] <natrium42> :)
[21:00] <natrium42> only problem is when I send 0x00 command, the reply is garbled
[21:00] <natrium42> 2 bytes are missing
[21:00] <natrium42> maybe some problem with AVR?
[21:00] <natrium42> it seems to get replies correctly for 0x06 command
[21:00] <natrium42> anyway, i should go outside and test
[21:00] <natrium42> not sure if RF portion is getting voltage
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[21:16] <natrium42> receiving "AA 05 C4" instead of "AA 05 00 D9 C4"
[21:18] <natrium42> but only for transmit command
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[21:33] <mc-> that seems a bit strange. It should follow the correct format when replying.
[21:33] <mc-> rocketboy, I've got some rockmites if they would help.
[21:38] <mc-> which pic does you use for your MFSK code, I could try it out here, but I'm a bit busy this week.
[21:47] <natrium42> mc-, perhaps i am not able to supply enough amps when it transmits
[21:47] <natrium42> going to do a test outside
[21:47] <natrium42> didn't figure out the power system very well
[21:54] <RocketBoy> mc: Thanks for the offer - I may take you up on that - I'm still sorting the PIC out at the mo
[21:58] <mc-> natrium, it needs under 0.5A on transmit, I have a SM 8 pin 3.3V reg
[22:00] <mc-> rocketboy, there's a nice class E design for an amp, gives out 1W a low power.
[22:01] <mc-> I prototyped it, it uses 3 parallel 2n7000s, and a few other components.
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[22:27] mc- (n=mfcastle@cpc3-glfd1-0-0-cust439.glfd.cable.ntl.com) left irc:
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[23:12] <natrium42> zomg, spot works :D
[23:14] <natrium42> i got the positions i sent http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0iYBQsZKupoOBTJq8x6cWA4PRJUYRi1ir
[23:14] <natrium42> 2 minute delay seems fine
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[23:38] <SpeedEvil> Woo!
[23:38] <Laurenceb> hello
[23:39] <Laurenceb> I'm not chinese
[23:39] <SpeedEvil> (re natriums announce of spot working with 2 minute delay)
[23:40] <Laurenceb> awsome
[23:49] <SpeedEvil> yay.
[23:49] <SpeedEvil> GPS now has 2* battery life.
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> (and 18650 duct-taped to the side)
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> well - 2* orig life, maybe 20* current
[23:58] <Laurenceb> what gps is this?
[23:59] <shellevil> My 'navigps 3100' or something. cheap car-nav unit - which works well for also NMEA logging
[23:59] <shellevil> using it a bit with OSM
[00:00] --- Fri Mar 13 2009