highaltitude.log.20090304

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[03:44] <sYx66> canadian govt decreased interest again and is planning to print more money
[03:44] <sYx66> argh
[03:46] <natrium42> sYx66, i am in the car
[03:46] <natrium42> captured the OK message
[03:46] <natrium42> it's cold :S
[03:46] <natrium42> brrr
[03:46] <sYx66> yeah man. you should wait warmer weather by end of the week
[03:46] <sYx66> hehe
[03:54] <sYx66> natrium42 does the message make sense?
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[04:07] <natrium42> wifi bad in car
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[04:20] <natrium42> back inside, got all SPOT data captured :)
[04:51] <sYx66> nice
[04:51] <sYx66> even 911?
[04:51] <natrium42> technically i could capture it
[04:52] <natrium42> by making sure it sends it inside the house
[04:52] <sYx66> so do they encrypt gps data in the msg or just send the text?
[04:53] <natrium42> it's in a special format
[04:53] <natrium42> 6 bytes (3 for lat, 3 for lon)
[04:53] <natrium42> i think it's the same as axtracker uses
[04:57] <sYx66> they must also have bytes to distinguish the type of message
[04:58] <sYx66> track/help/911
[04:58] <natrium42> yep
[04:59] <natrium42> 01 (OK), 04 (HELP), 40 (TRACK)
[05:23] <natrium42> sYx66, decoded the lat/lon
[05:23] <natrium42> it's the same format as axtracker
[05:36] <Laurenceb> http://www.gjcp.net/~laurenceb/minirog.php
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[06:36] <natrium42> SpeedEvil, http://www.natrium42.com/projects/spot.txt
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[11:04] <shellevil> n?a: this is all reverse engineered - oor did you find sources for some
[11:09] <shellevil> and neat
[11:11] <shellevil> One byte to define the transmit power level 0 (20dBm), 1 (20dBm) typo?
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[14:06] <Laurenceb> hello
[14:07] <Laurenceb> http://www.gjcp.net/~laurenceb/minirog.php
[14:14] <Laurenceb> http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/pdf/pres/stsc2009/tech-15.pdf
[14:14] <Laurenceb> ^ epic
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> It flew?
[15:11] <Laurenceb> no
[15:11] <Laurenceb> I ran around campus
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[15:12] <Laurenceb> it still needs a bit of backend work
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> You should build a larger one with lower wing loading.
[15:12] <Laurenceb> but the graphics is finished
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> that way you can tow it like a kite
[15:12] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:12] <Laurenceb> looks good?
[15:12] <SpeedEvil> With some caveats
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> I'd probably want to put minimum scales on some of the graphs
[15:13] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> for example, 3V on the voltage, and 10C on the temp
[15:13] <Laurenceb> it rescales to the data
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> yeah - but is it actually useful for the bat voltage to just be showing you noise
[15:14] <Laurenceb> true
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> rather than the more visually understandable bouncing up and down a few pixels on a flat line
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> And 'rollaglo position' has too many sig-figs.
[15:15] <SpeedEvil> But both of those are pretty minor
[15:15] <SpeedEvil> A little 'current heading' arrow in the corner of the plot'd be nice.
[15:15] <SpeedEvil> maybe scaled by speed.
[15:15] <Laurenceb> at the moment theres the same script at both ends
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> Otherwise :)
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> Get to the local list of base-jumping sites, and throw it off.
[15:16] <Laurenceb> I'm going to keep that script at my end, and have it post updates to the server
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> Or are you planning a flight soon.
[15:17] <Laurenceb> yeah in a week or so
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> I have pondered a compressed air cannon to launch stuff like this.
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> what's the (sea level) glide speed?
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> ~8-14m/s?
[15:19] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:20] <Laurenceb> probably closer to 8
[15:20] <Laurenceb> I've tried it in the kitchen but its a bit tricky
[15:20] <Laurenceb> crashed it into the cooker and damaged the front :-/
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[15:28] <Laurenceb> apparently that iranian gps is a hacked rockwell jupiter
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> Even if you don't really care much about selecting an ideal GPS for military stuff - the +-2Km/s of the various satellites, and the few hundred m/s of the speed limit give you a decent output range if you delimit stuff
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> even assuming that you've not selected it for wide doppler capability
[15:39] <Laurenceb> its interesting as anything they can make anyone can :P
[15:39] <Laurenceb> with all the embargos ect
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> Well - GPS from first principles isn't exactly hard.
[15:40] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:40] <Laurenceb> the blackfin project is making good progress
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> It's not _that_ bad - even if you have to make it all from TTL gates - if you're willing to live with lousy lock times and power usage.
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> With modern fast CPUs, and nice chips that spit out IF directly, ...
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> A corrolary is of course that only turning off GPS totally actually helps if the opponent has a reciever that's connected to the internet in a known location.
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> And then of course, GPS transmitters in some ways are actually easier.
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> A few 1W transmitters that stay silent and are in your target area are going to be practically impossible to jam.
[15:44] <Laurenceb> hmm the military receivers are pretty hard to jam
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> No, I mean - for example - scatter a few of these transmitters around washington the week before.
[15:45] <Laurenceb> smart bombs ect get a lock at high altitude where your jammer is weak
[15:45] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> And then launch your attack with improvised 'GPS' guided stuff.
[15:45] <Laurenceb> then they switch the P code
[15:45] <Laurenceb> lol
[15:46] Action: Laurenceb reports speedevil to MI5
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> As I've said before in other forums, it doesn't really matter so much - jamming - in many cases.
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> JDAM and similar munitions are launched off bombers with quite good GPS that fly ~mach 1.
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> quite good INS
[15:46] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> Even if you manage to 100% jam them - you've still got only a very limited time for that INS to drift.
[15:47] <Laurenceb> but they also use 8 bit ADCs
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> Even assuming they don't sight on landmarks.
[15:47] <Laurenceb> and P code
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> M code and spot-beams make this orders of magnitude harder too.
[15:47] <Laurenceb> very hard to jam that
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> spot-beams can be directed to areas of conflict, and are IIRC 100* the EIRP
[15:48] <Laurenceb> especially if it uses the INS to stop the tracking loops wandering off
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> Especially also if you're pointing a little dish at a satelite on the top of the plane
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> (the dish, not the satellite)
[15:48] <Laurenceb> your going to need a jammer about 30dB at least higher than the sat at the antenna
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> 30dB isn't a big number - the - normal - GPS signal is at 50W/hemisphere - but it's not as easy as that makes it sound.
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> (for military stuff)
[15:49] <Laurenceb> hmm yeah military is quite wide as well
[15:50] <Laurenceb> and as its encripted all you could do is add white noise
[15:50] <Laurenceb> so it really sucks to jam that
[15:50] <Laurenceb> ~20MHz bandwidth
[15:51] <SpeedEvil> I'm pretty sure jamming at short ranges is pretty easy. But then you again run into the INS problem.
[15:51] <SpeedEvil> That jamming short ranges doesn't help you
[15:52] <Laurenceb> hmm any good with php?
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> Never done php
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> sorry
[16:18] <Laurenceb> I think you can treat a URL like a file
[16:18] <Laurenceb> and directly write to it
[16:20] <edmoore> yo all
[16:20] <SpeedEvil> yo.
[16:20] <Laurenceb> hi edmoore
[16:21] <edmoore> all well?
[16:21] <Laurenceb> guess so, at least its a bit warmer
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[16:26] <mib_xbpnkk> evening all
[16:26] Nick change: mib_xbpnkk -> rjharrison
[16:27] <Laurenceb> hello
[16:27] <rjharrison> hi
[16:27] <Laurenceb> can I use your tracket for my mini rogallo?
[16:27] <rjharrison> Going to be giving a talk on Icarus this w/e
[16:27] <rjharrison> opps tonight
[16:27] <rjharrison> Just hinking about this w/e
[16:27] <Laurenceb> where?
[16:28] <rjharrison> At a local radio club
[16:28] <rjharrison> Not mine
[16:28] <Laurenceb> neat
[16:28] <Laurenceb> I've got a tracketr running atm, but I want to have google maps as well
[16:28] <rjharrison> Another one was interested to hear what I had been up to after having heard me talking on the radio to another group
[16:28] <Laurenceb> can I send locations to your tracker?
[16:28] <rjharrison> Cool
[16:29] <rjharrison> There is going to be a lot of activity when the weather improves
[16:29] <Laurenceb> http://www.gjcp.net/~laurenceb/minirog.php
[16:29] <Laurenceb> thats what I've got atm, I'll make it send the positions to your tracker as well
[16:30] <rjharrison> hey that's gool
[16:30] <Laurenceb> yeah, I used pCharts
[16:31] <Laurenceb> itd be perfect for the transatlantic
[16:31] <rjharrison> You should send the stuff to natrium42's tracker as he has done all the work on it
[16:31] <Laurenceb> does he have one up online?
[16:31] <rjharrison> Yep space nearus
[16:31] <Laurenceb> oh course
[16:32] <rjharrison> http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[16:32] <rjharrison> Mine is just stolen code with concent
[16:32] <rjharrison> consent even
[16:33] <Laurenceb> so I can use a GET request...
[16:34] <Laurenceb> problem is I need to do that from within the php file
[16:41] <Laurenceb> http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum88/948.htm
[16:41] <Laurenceb> could I use that code then change POST to GET ?
[16:44] <rjharrison> use curl to send the data
[16:44] <rjharrison> Yep you can use POST or GET from cul
[16:44] <rjharrison> curl
[16:47] <Laurenceb> can I use curl from within php?
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> http://curl.haxx.se/libcurl/php/
[16:54] <rjharrison> yep
[16:54] <Laurenceb> I'm going to try the html approach
[16:54] <Laurenceb> only thing I dont get is if you post surely you get a page back in response?
[17:20] <Laurenceb> aha http://www.experts-exchange.com/Web_Development/Web_Languages-Standards/PHP/Q_20730970.html
[17:21] <Laurenceb> so could I run that and set the url to e.g. http://domain.com/tracker/track.php?vehicle=halo&time=233720&lat=5142.8844N&lon=00007.1758W&alt=123.9&heading=40&speed=20.5&pass=yourpass
[17:21] <Laurenceb> hmm is a password required?
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[17:56] <Laurenceb> I'm off cya
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[20:45] <Laurenceb> natrium42: about?
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[21:39] <Hiena> ' evening!
[21:39] <Hiena> Fast question.
[21:40] <Hiena> Is the micro servos has enough power for a 2 meter slow modell?
[21:41] <Hiena> Usually i'm using mini or standard servos, but my pal want to install micro servos right next to the control surfaces.
[21:42] <Hiena> The model will be around 1.8kg.
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[22:30] <natrium42> hi
[22:32] <edmoore> hi
[22:34] <natrium42> got teh parts for flight computer
[22:36] <shellevil> :)
[22:36] <shellevil> natrium42: was all of that spot your own work - or did you find docs somewhere?
[22:36] <natrium42> i just captured the data
[22:37] <natrium42> it turned out to be STX2 based, so the STX2 datasheet applied
[22:37] <natrium42> did i link you to it?
[22:37] <shellevil> ah
[22:37] <natrium42> http://rs335.rapidshare.com/files/202981244/STX2.pdf
[22:37] <natrium42> and lat/lon format was as described in AXTracker datasheet
[22:38] <shellevil> you linked me to the explanation - however not the fact that the stx2 - the sat module ? has a public datasheet
[22:38] <natrium42> it's not public.
[22:38] <shellevil> ah
[22:38] <natrium42> but i got it w/o signing NDA
[22:38] Action: shellevil hugs p2p.
[22:38] <natrium42> haha
[22:38] <shellevil> strange stuff out there amongst the porn if you search for it.
[22:39] <natrium42> it seems that they just took the STX2 guts and placed it on the same PCB as the GPS module and the controller
[22:39] <natrium42> makes sense
[22:39] <shellevil> yeah
[22:39] <shellevil> so in principle it could do bidirectional?
[22:39] <shellevil> But it's just configured for uni?
[22:40] <natrium42> it's simplex
[22:40] <shellevil> Suppose it's irreelvant unless you can convince the far end to let your packets through
[22:40] <natrium42> SPOT is wasting quite a few bytes
[22:40] <natrium42> they could have included altitude easily
[22:41] <natrium42> also their GPS chipset is awful
[22:41] <shellevil> how wasting?
[22:41] <shellevil> isn't it just 3 lat/3 lon?
[22:41] <natrium42> there are two bytes which are always 0x00
[22:41] <shellevil> ah
[22:41] <natrium42> the message is 9 bytes in total
[22:41] <natrium42> and one whole byte used for message type
[22:41] <natrium42> where they could have used bits
[22:41] <natrium42> so it's enough room for altitude :P
[22:42] <shellevil> I suppose packet setup is a bigger cost, and timeslicing
[22:42] <natrium42> all packets are 9 bytes
[22:42] <natrium42> can't use less than that
[22:42] <shellevil> how fast does it send?
[22:42] <shellevil> over the air
[22:43] <natrium42> it's described in the datasheet i believe
[22:43] <natrium42> they also give the frequencies used
[22:43] <shellevil> A generic 9 bytes/5 min service would be lovely.
[22:43] <natrium42> yes, you can get the STX2 module for that
[22:43] <natrium42> but each message is going to cost you
[22:43] <natrium42> SPOT is flat rate :)
[22:44] <shellevil> I was meaning 9bytes/5 min, at SPOT rates
[22:44] <natrium42> but we still have the 6 lat/lon bytes, so...
[22:44] <shellevil> If they don't object to SPOTs doing mach 307
[22:44] <natrium42> yeah, would be good
[22:44] <natrium42> haha
[22:46] <shellevil> I seem to remember SMSs at $1 or so per?
[22:47] <shellevil> even that isn't horrible for hourly update over a couple of days
[22:47] <natrium42> bbl food
[22:48] <shellevil> wave
[22:48] Action: shellevil looks at his pork pie.
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[23:20] <Laurenceb> hello
[23:20] <Laurenceb> natrium42: i can has tracker password?
[23:24] <natrium42> hey
[23:25] <natrium42> i'll PM it to you
[23:25] <natrium42> since this channel has public logs :0
[23:25] <Laurenceb> thanks
[23:25] <natrium42> np
[23:25] <natrium42> feel free to delete current tracks
[23:25] <Laurenceb> lol.... there are datasheets sailing in the ocean of pron
[23:25] <natrium42> haha
[23:25] <natrium42> well, technically i got it from a guy on some forum
[23:26] <natrium42> he uploaded it on rapidshare
[23:26] <natrium42> Laurenceb, so when is your launch?
[23:26] <Laurenceb> < 2 weeks
[23:26] <Laurenceb> depends on hallam
[23:26] <Laurenceb> launching with him
[23:27] <natrium42> cool, looking forward to it
[23:29] <Laurenceb> I've set it to send a GET each time it detects a new packet
[23:29] <Laurenceb> hmm I may have to add a cookie wipe button
[23:30] <natrium42> what are you using cookies for?
[23:30] <Laurenceb> to identify sessions
[23:30] <Laurenceb> then theres a session variable storing number of packets
[23:30] <Laurenceb> hmm
[23:30] <Laurenceb> #!/usr/bin/php -q #!/usr/bin/php -q #!/usr/bin/php -q #!/usr/bin/php -q #!
[23:30] <Laurenceb> hundereds of lines of that :-/
[23:31] <natrium42> haha, wtf
[23:31] <natrium42> where?
[23:31] <Laurenceb> on my page
[23:31] <Laurenceb> after I added a valid password
[23:32] <natrium42> may i see the code that produces that?
[23:34] <Laurenceb> http://pastebin.com/m4276654a
[23:37] Action: shellevil passes Laurenceb some mini-airbags.
[23:38] <Laurenceb> why?
[23:40] <shellevil> For preventing harsh impact with the ground.
[23:43] <natrium42> Laurenceb, you should ignore what curl returns
[23:44] <Laurenceb> it seems to be working now
[23:44] <Laurenceb> ok
[23:45] <Laurenceb> how can I remove icarus?
[23:45] <natrium42> go to admin/
[23:45] <Laurenceb> can you see me?
[23:45] <natrium42> btw, to capture lines of curl, you can surround it with ob_start(); and ob_end_clean();
[23:45] <natrium42> that will remove any output
[23:46] <Laurenceb> sorry I dont really follow
[23:46] <natrium42> the "#!/usr/bin/php -q" stuff
[23:46] <Laurenceb> ok
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[23:48] <natrium42> that's how i do it --> http://pastebin.com/m59b44c7b
[23:48] <natrium42> (dunno why it's double spaced...)
[23:52] <Laurenceb> cool
[23:52] <Laurenceb> hello fnoble
[23:52] <natrium42> where's fnoble?
[23:53] <Laurenceb> fn217.quns
[23:53] <natrium42> ah :)
[23:56] <Laurenceb> ok seems to work
[23:57] <natrium42> cool, is that a field where you tested it?
[23:57] <Laurenceb> yeah, on foot
[23:57] <natrium42> neat
[00:00] --- Thu Mar 5 2009