highaltitude.log.20090214

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[01:16] <Laurenceb> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=04209118
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[09:44] <Xenion> Guten Morgen / Good Morning :-)
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[10:31] <rjharrison> morning all
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[11:36] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: fwiw - order status showing as shipped on dx for 5/6 items
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: only 3 weeks
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> A plumbing error in October at the annual Grape Festival in Marino, Italy, stymied the traditional hook-up in which white wine cascades through the famous fountains in the center of town. Instead, water continued to run in the fountains, but "10 to 12" nearby homeowners must have thought it glorious divine intervention, briefly, when they opened their taps and found white wine flowing freely. [BBC News, 10-8-08]
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> oops
[12:46] <SpeedEvil> http://www.newscientist.com/articleimages/dn16604/3-satellite-collision-more-powerful-than-chinas-asat-test.html
[12:46] <SpeedEvil> I love the bottom right tag onthe image
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[13:53] <appletizer> so what do people make of space elevators?
[13:53] <appletizer> :)
[13:54] <shellevil> SHOW ME THE COMPOSITE!
[13:54] <shellevil> (to badly paraphrase a movie)
[13:54] <appletizer> haha
[13:55] <shellevil> Space elevators require very strong and light composite. Once you get to where the payload is 1/100th or so of the mass of the elevator, they start getting very interesting.
[13:56] <shellevil> As that way you can bootstrap them from small tethers to large ones in realistic timescales.
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[13:56] <shellevil> First one is a ton payload, after 3 months 2 tons, 1 year 16 tons, 2 years 256 tons
[13:57] <appletizer> yeah i was wondering which would be more economically feasible, them or better propulsion for rockets ie nuclear or possibly maglev
[13:57] <shellevil> elevators are absolutely the best.
[13:57] <shellevil> If you can source a few thousand tons of composite that's about 4-10 times stronger than the state of the art.
[14:00] <appletizer> :) well it looks of the three, maglev might be the ideal solution, having neither of the waste disadvantage of nuclear or techno prohibition of elevators
[14:01] <shellevil> It's not.
[14:01] <shellevil> It's - practically - a first stage only.
[14:01] <shellevil> Get to mach 2 maybe.
[14:01] <shellevil> Major constraints.
[14:02] <shellevil> Sonic booms are a major problem at the launch site.
[14:02] <shellevil> Massive peak power use.
[14:02] <shellevil> High dynamic pressure on the vehicle as it exits the launcher.
[14:03] <shellevil> You need multiple stages to complete the accelleration to orbital velocity and circularise the orbit.
[14:06] <appletizer> shellevil, any links possibly?
[14:06] <shellevil> Umm.
[14:06] <shellevil> Sorry, no.
[14:06] <shellevil> Don't have any - google-groups for sci.space.tech search for elevator GPa
[14:06] <shellevil> maybe
[14:07] <shellevil> and sci.space.policy
[14:07] <appletizer> no worries, all i remembered was reading something about xavier claramunt for this space travel thing, and then on the maglev project by nasa back in 2002 at the marshall station, but apart from that haven't heard much :/
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[15:37] <hallam> hey guys
[15:37] <hallam> fergusnoble: want to work on rocket pcb tonight?
[15:37] <fergusnoble> hallam: yeah sure
[15:37] <fergusnoble> im working on it now actually
[15:37] <hallam> oh cool
[15:37] <fergusnoble> just started
[15:37] <hallam> I need to do some work for the next ~4hrs
[15:37] <fergusnoble> yeah cool
[15:37] <hallam> but then should I come over?
[15:37] <fergusnoble> there is a lot of bording stuff to do in the schematic first
[15:38] <fergusnoble> so you wont miss the fun
[15:38] <hallam> haha
[15:38] <hallam> okay
[15:38] <fergusnoble> yeah, come over when you want
[15:38] <hallam> will do
[15:38] <fergusnoble> *boring
[15:38] <hallam> I have Jaffa cakes
[15:38] <fergusnoble> awesome
[15:43] <fergusnoble> hallam: where did you find that uSD socket?
[15:43] <fergusnoble> http://www3.alps.com/WebObjects/catalog.woa/E/HTML/Connector/microSD_Card/SCHA/SCHA_list.html
[15:44] <hallam> either Digikey or Mouser
[15:44] <fergusnoble> is it one of these? looks like it might be the one without any switches
[15:44] <hallam> I have more than 100 of them
[15:44] <hallam> yes that rings a bell
[15:44] <hallam> but I have a footprint for it
[15:44] <fergusnoble> we dont really need the switches
[15:44] <fergusnoble> yeah i know
[15:44] <fergusnoble> im just checking it because the pinout for sd mode is a bit different
[15:44] <hallam> ah ok
[15:45] <shellevil> usd has no cs
[15:46] <hallam> it's definitely the SCHA
[15:48] <hallam> yeah 688-SCHA1A0101 from Mouser
[15:55] Nick change: hallam -> hallam|work
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[16:46] <edmoore> fergusnoble: ping
[16:47] <fergusnoble> edmoore: hello
[16:47] <edmoore> hi
[16:47] <edmoore> so my phone has gone down
[16:47] <edmoore> could you tell iain I am back in cam and good to go when ever he and you are?
[16:47] <edmoore> + subsequent organisation
[16:48] <fergusnoble> sure
[16:48] <fergusnoble> going tonight?
[16:48] <edmoore> perhaps this afternoon
[17:02] <edmoore> fergusnoble: any news?
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[17:04] <fergusnoble> edmoore: iain is keen, im just waiting for him to call me back
[17:04] <edmoore> ok cool
[17:04] <fergusnoble> he is phoning chris to see when he is free
[17:05] <edmoore> cool beans
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[17:08] <fergusnoble> edmoore: iain says now is good
[17:08] <edmoore> does he have an address?
[17:08] <edmoore> i don't know where chris lives
[17:08] <edmoore> though have seen his funky beige defender head down the grantchester road...
[17:09] <edmoore> next q: from where should I pick iain up?
[17:10] <fergusnoble> he doesnt mind, he can meet you whereever
[17:10] <fergusnoble> at his place, or by the bollards on silver street, or chez ed
[17:10] <edmoore> tell him I will pick both of you up from the queens bollards at 5.25
[17:11] <edmoore> is that ok with you both?
[17:11] <edmoore> 15 mins
[17:11] <fergusnoble> yup thats fine
[17:11] <edmoore> cool
[17:11] <edmoore> see you then
[17:11] <fergusnoble> see you in a bit
[17:11] <fergusnoble> edmoore: get the pm?
[17:12] <edmoore> yup ta
[17:15] <Laurenceb> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=04209118 <-- interesting
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[17:38] <Laurenceb> I'm suprised something that simple actually works
[17:39] <Laurenceb> they seem to be saying a simple high speed (1KHz) PI control loop based on gyro and accel is better than a 50Hz loop based on a proper euler angle/quaternoin solution
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> Go Go team throw CPU at it!
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> you can read the whole paper?
[17:46] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[17:47] <Laurenceb> yeah they use an AVR
[17:47] Action: SpeedEvil hates not being able to read this sort of stuff.
[17:47] <Laurenceb> oh.... yeah of course
[17:48] <Laurenceb> that sucks
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> And no decent library
[17:49] <Laurenceb> isnt the a university nearby?
[17:49] <Laurenceb> I've found ways of getting into my local uni (derby)
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> The closest is dundee - which isn't really much into fun stuff.
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> Do they involve GPS guided parafoils? :)
[17:50] <Laurenceb> :P
[17:50] <Laurenceb> no but once you have acess to the library you can use their pcs
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> Fun stuff - hypersonic gas dynamics, rocketry, ...
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> I've found an awesome source of materials is physics journals of the 1950s/60s
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> Less 'What I did with my $20m grant' more 'How to make a simple mass spectrometer from baling wire and cheese'
[17:52] <Laurenceb> yeah, I was talking to a team here working on maglev momentum gyros
[17:52] <Laurenceb> they spent £2K on a "pwm card" as their hall sensors (£500 each) output pwm
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> I was looking at that - based off a paper using them for fundamental measurement of vacuum tech.
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> pressure rather
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> you spinup a ball bearing to 500KRPM, and measure the spindown
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[17:53] <SpeedEvil> :/
[17:53] <Laurenceb> looking at the apparatus you could probably build the whole thing for ~100
[17:54] <Laurenceb> they've literally spent about £1M
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> Many of these people seem to have a 'waste anything but time' attitude.
[17:54] <Laurenceb> yes
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> Where off the shelf always wins.
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> Even if ridiculously overspecified, and not actually that suited on reflection.
[17:54] <Laurenceb> they now have lots of useless off the shelf junk that'll never be useful again
[17:55] <Laurenceb> and one alu rotor mechanism that probably took a day to make on a lathe
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> levitating an Al rotor?
[17:56] <Laurenceb> there magnets built in
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> ah
[17:56] <Laurenceb> then coils in the rim
[17:57] <Laurenceb> then a huge motherboard to hold all the pci cards to control it :-/
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> Because clearly PCI is the way to go over a couple of 1 quid opamps.
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:58] <Laurenceb> its not like they even tried, the coils are duck taped in place
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> Though I imagine the control laws are a bit messy
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> You mean this isn't up yet?
[17:58] <Laurenceb> it kind of works
[17:59] <Laurenceb> for the time they spent on writing the control loops they might as well have buit something thats actually useful
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> However.
[18:00] <Laurenceb> if someone actually wanted to put this on a spacecraft their work isnt exactly useful
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> If the aim isn't a working object, but a nice fat paper discussing the control laws...
[18:00] <Laurenceb> yes
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> 'we did x,y,z boring things, took us a week, works'.
[18:01] <Laurenceb> yeah, thats about how long they seem to have spent on the hardware
[18:01] <SpeedEvil> Too many people seem to think software can fix anything.
[18:02] <Laurenceb> its written in matlab then uses the proprietory drivers for all the different cards
[18:02] <Laurenceb> only manages to work in real time as they have a really fast machine
[18:06] <SpeedEvil> DX has shipped my little camera.
[18:06] <SpeedEvil> The pen VGA one
[18:07] <Laurenceb> cool
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> prolly a week before it gets here.
[18:08] <natrium42> i wish they would ship mine :P
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> They seem to be catching up.
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> But I'm going to wait till I get my stuff before ordering more.
[18:08] <natrium42> yes, i got a reponse finally
[18:08] <natrium42> they said they will ship it soon
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> (mp3 player to jam into his portable waterproof DAB radio)
[18:09] <natrium42> and the ass pen holder, right? :P
[18:09] <SpeedEvil> no.
[18:09] <SpeedEvil> just 'boring' stuff.
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> servos, ...
[18:10] <natrium42> i got some dean's connectors
[18:10] <natrium42> quite a few, actually
[18:10] <Laurenceb> theif
[18:10] <natrium42> ?
[18:10] <Laurenceb> give them back to Dean
[18:10] <natrium42> lol
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> And maybe some carpc bits.
[18:11] <natrium42> i think they are better than the molex ones for HAB
[18:11] <natrium42> contact area is big
[18:12] <Laurenceb> i see
[18:12] <natrium42> SpeedEvil, with such a cheap site, i still managed to spend over $200 :/
[18:13] <Laurenceb> the mini rogallo should be ready by start of next wekk
[18:14] <Laurenceb> now I've finally got a radio system I'm happy with
[18:14] <Laurenceb> only major job is grease cleaning in the servo
[18:15] <Laurenceb> oh and some background text for the dominoEX.... rickroll?
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> work out what data pattern gives the appropriate tune
[18:21] <Laurenceb> haha
[18:22] <Laurenceb> I was thinking just read out the lyrics
[18:22] <Laurenceb> nah - I'll have it read out my phone number
[18:22] <Laurenceb> it'll only send the sec text if the main uC dies
[18:23] <Laurenceb> cleaning the servo will be interesting... I've never tried cleaning a metal one before
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[18:25] <Laurenceb> dont really want to use water for cleaning... meths?
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> wd40
[18:26] <Laurenceb> is it a good solvent for lithium grease?
[18:26] <Hiena> Don't use WD40 for a servos.
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> No - as a solvent
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> not as a lubricant
[18:27] <Hiena> My pals trashed plenty of them.
[18:27] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> you dry it out, and replace the grease with some light oil
[18:27] <Laurenceb> well... I want it to survive -40 or so
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> worked for me - I don't know if it's a good solvent.
[18:27] <Hiena> The WD40 kills the mettalic parts.
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[18:27] <SpeedEvil> It does?
[18:27] <Hiena> Khm...plastic parts.
[18:27] <Laurenceb> eh
[18:27] <Laurenceb> oh ok
[18:28] <Laurenceb> well I should be able to remove the metal gears
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> It's not affected anything plastic that I've used it on.
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> Though I wouldn't load it before drying at elevated temp.
[18:28] <Hiena> The plastig gears and covers became fragile after the WD40.
[18:29] <Laurenceb> interesting
[18:29] <Hiena> We lost a 15kg trget drone due the WD40.
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> :/
[18:30] <Laurenceb> its a futaba servo
[18:30] <Laurenceb> IIRC they sue brass gears
[18:30] <Laurenceb> so soap/water should be fine?
[18:31] <Hiena> The elevator and one aileros servo broken in the air, and the parachute can't reduce the speed before the impact.
[18:32] <Hiena> Dishwashing agent fine too. Removes the grease.
[18:33] <Hiena> For the plastic parts use silicone oil, or special silicone grease. Also the silicone grease good for the metallic gears.
[18:33] <Laurenceb> hmm I have some light machine oil here
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> It probably doesn't really matter for only one flight
[18:34] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:34] <Laurenceb> I just need to get the grease out
[18:34] <Hiena> The most lubricant manufacturer gives free samples, you could order even space and millitary grade samples. ;)
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> Though I'd probably cobble together a peltier in my freezer.
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> for testing at temp
[18:35] <Laurenceb> well I did some sims based on the thermal mass of the parts + the power consumption
[18:35] <Laurenceb> and delta t will be at least 30C inside
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> that's not too bad
[18:36] <Laurenceb> yeah but during the ascent dynamic pressure will be a bit higher
[18:36] <Hiena> Will you use it under sub-zero codition?
[18:36] <Laurenceb> yes its on a hab
[18:36] <Laurenceb> but the servo is enclosed in foam
[18:36] <Laurenceb> I'd guesstimate it may reach -20C
[18:36] <Hiena> Could you afford some extra battery drain?
[18:37] <Laurenceb> yes
[18:37] <Laurenceb> and the servo is overspecced
[18:37] <Laurenceb> but I still wory it may jam
[18:38] <Hiena> Make a servo shaking algorithm. It will increase the current, but prevent the servo freeze.
[18:38] <Laurenceb> yes, already done that
[18:38] <Hiena> Also, it increase the heating of the servo.
[18:38] <Laurenceb> hmm I'm still not convinced
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> shake it fast enough - may not move
[18:39] <Laurenceb> theres some slots for the lines to come out at the front of the servo, that will tend to cool the front
[18:39] <Laurenceb> its moves from one end to the other over 15 seconds
[18:39] <Laurenceb> during the ascent
[18:40] <Hiena> Is it the paning servo for the camera?
[18:41] <Laurenceb> no, its for C of G shifting
[18:42] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:imgp0191.jpg
[18:43] <Hiena> That case you could make the PWM trick. You could adjust the servo setting a maximal and minimal impulses mixed with valid position impulses.
[18:43] <Laurenceb> well its a digital servo and seems to be accurate enough as it is
[18:43] <Hiena> The servo will be singing, and draining one hell of current but will not freeze up.
[18:44] <Laurenceb> hmm I'd want to avoid having to do that
[18:46] <Hiena> 3 maximum ipulse, one valid position ipulse, 3 minimum impuse, one valid position impule, 3 maximum....
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[18:47] <Hiena> It will keep rotating the gears inside constantly, yet the saft will be only oscillating.
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[18:49] <Hiena> Usually the motor shaft and the first two gears freeze at first.
[18:50] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:51] <Laurenceb> but they dont usually have grease on the motor shaft?
[18:53] <Hiena> It is. And the grease freeze at first. If i have to make a modell for a winter flight, i usually wash out the original grease, dry it, and apply some millitary grade lubricant.
[18:54] <Laurenceb> guess I need to take the servo apart and have a look, but cleaning the motor would be hard
[18:59] <Hiena> Usually the low temperature lubricants has a low viscosity, so you could wash out the old grease.
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[19:22] <Hiena> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_drop_experiment
[19:37] <Laurenceb> natrium42: about?
[19:39] <Laurenceb> I was wondering what you did with your servo?
[19:40] <Laurenceb> as it didnt jam at all?
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[19:57] <natrium42> Laurenceb, nothing
[19:58] <Laurenceb> wow, and it was exposed?
[19:58] <natrium42> Laurenceb, it was inside styrofoam
[19:58] <natrium42> only one side was (the one with the axle)
[19:58] <Laurenceb> ah I see
[19:58] <Laurenceb> similar to my arrangement
[19:59] <Laurenceb> I'm still tempted to clean off the gears and put on some light oil
[19:59] <Laurenceb> but maybe not go to the trouble of cleaning the ball bearings on the output shaft
[20:13] <Laurenceb> bbl
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[21:33] <jcoxon> evening all
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[22:22] Action: Laurenceb has dismantled his servo
[22:23] <Laurenceb> looks like lithium grease
[22:27] <Laurenceb> annoyingly theres tons round the motor shaft
[22:37] <Laurenceb> theres no risk of my machine oil damaging the plastic right?
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[23:15] <Laurenceb> hi hallam
[23:16] <hallam> hey
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[23:25] <Laurenceb> finished the servo :P
[23:25] <Laurenceb> it hasnt dissolved... yet
[23:26] <Laurenceb> http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i46/shedracer/001.jpg I left the grease in the roller bearing
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[00:00] --- Sun Feb 15 2009