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[00:00] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: can you help me with some physics quickly?
[00:01] <Laurenceb> k
[00:02] <natrium42> F=ma
[00:02] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: how can you work out the delta x delta p for eigenfunctions of a quantum harmonic oscillator using the ladder operators?
[00:02] <hallam> F=d(mv)/dt
[00:02] <natrium42> fancy
[00:02] <Laurenceb> fergusnoble:...
[00:02] <Laurenceb> yeah I did know how to do that
[00:02] <fergusnoble> natrium42: quantum version of ma = -kx
[00:03] <Laurenceb> some time ago :P
[00:03] <Laurenceb> dont have lecture notes with me here :(
[00:03] <fergusnoble> ok, no worries
[00:03] <hallam> is it better to have once known how to do that, or to never have known?
[00:03] <fergusnoble> its a pretty obscure question
[00:03] <Laurenceb> no
[00:03] <Laurenceb> its pretty standard
[00:03] <fergusnoble> yo would never have to do that in real life i imainge
[00:03] <fergusnoble> ok
[00:04] <Laurenceb> it was one of the worked examples in my notes
[00:04] <fergusnoble> i will get some textbooks out the lib
[00:04] <fergusnoble> ok, cool
[00:04] <Laurenceb> but I dont have them and cant remember
[00:04] <Laurenceb> yeah, should be in a textbook
[00:04] <fergusnoble> could you recommend a good QM text?
[00:06] <Laurenceb> I was always flipping between several books
[00:06] <Laurenceb> just a sec, I may have a pdf reading list on here...
[00:08] <fergusnoble> thanks
[00:08] <fergusnoble> is landau good?i hear its awesome but maybe too high level
[00:08] <Laurenceb> http://www.mibbit.com/pb/IItU0n
[00:10] <Laurenceb> http://www.mibbit.com/pb/IjWibx
[00:10] <Laurenceb> first one was a bit more high level
[00:10] <Laurenceb> usually used stuff on the second list
[00:11] <Laurenceb> I've heard good things about Landau
[00:11] <Laurenceb> IIRC I got it from the library once
[00:12] <Laurenceb> but I've never been a fan of QM and didnt fancy reading for pleasure :P
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[00:53] <fergusnoble> QM is great!
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[01:07] <fergusnoble> night all
[01:08] <natrium42> nite
[01:13] <Laurenceb> cya
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[08:49] <Laurenceb> ello ello ello
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[09:13] <jcoxon> morning all
[10:11] <Laurenceb> hi jcoxon
[10:11] <Laurenceb> we need our own radio mode
[10:11] <Laurenceb> for hab use
[10:11] <Laurenceb> dominoex is better than RTTY, but it could be so much better
[10:12] <Laurenceb> I think we need to have a raw data mode using similar modulation and FEC
[10:12] <jcoxon> oh wow, a new mode
[10:12] <jcoxon> won't that be tough to implement?
[10:12] <Laurenceb> HAB mode :P
[10:13] <Laurenceb> not really
[10:13] <Laurenceb> some basic C code should be easy
[10:13] <Laurenceb> I'm just not very hot on error correction
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[10:14] <rjharrison> Morning all
[10:14] <rjharrison> Any news ???
[10:14] <gordonjcp> Laurenceb: why not just use one of the PSK modes?
[10:14] <Laurenceb> I ate breakfast
[10:15] <rjharrison> Laurenceb: Nice
[10:15] <Laurenceb> gordonjcp: pretty hard with existing hardware
[10:15] <jcoxon> morning rjharrison
[10:17] <gordonjcp> Laurenceb: why's that?
[10:17] <Laurenceb> we've been using radiometrix modules
[10:18] <Laurenceb> but yeah its probably worth building a transmitter from scratch
[10:18] <gordonjcp> Laurenceb: what have the modules got to do with it?
[10:18] <Laurenceb> they are FM
[10:18] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, then we'd have to get it licenced
[10:18] <gordonjcp> <shrug>
[10:19] <gordonjcp> and?
[10:19] <Laurenceb> how do you get a 90 degree phase shift with an FM module?
[10:19] <gordonjcp> why would you need to?
[10:19] <Laurenceb> so your tracking loop at the receiver works
[10:20] <gordonjcp> how would you get 90 degree phase shift with an SSB transmitter?
[10:20] <gordonjcp> for that matter, how would you get it with an SSB receiver?
[10:20] <Laurenceb> your phase changes... ?
[10:21] <Laurenceb> my point is you can only do PSK with an fm module if its very well calibrated
[10:21] <gordonjcp> why?
[10:21] <Laurenceb> you need phase coherency
[10:22] <gordonjcp> have you tried it?
[10:22] <Laurenceb> no
[10:22] <gordonjcp> okay
[10:22] <gordonjcp> then I guess it doesn't work
[10:22] <Laurenceb> it might work, but I wouldnt trust it on a HAB
[10:22] <gordonjcp> maybe I'd better stop doing it, then
[10:22] <gordonjcp> wouldn't want to be breaking any laws of physics
[10:23] <Laurenceb> your using FM modules?
[10:23] <gordonjcp> I'm using FM transceivers, yes
[10:24] <Laurenceb> ah, so your FM modulating audio tones?
[10:24] <gordonjcp> yes
[10:24] <gordonjcp> exactly the same setup as I use with SSB on HF
[10:24] <Laurenceb> ok, thats where its different
[10:24] <gordonjcp> audio comes out the laptop, goes over the air, audio goes in the other laptop
[10:25] <Laurenceb> we'rer transmitting with FM then receiving with ssb
[10:25] <gordonjcp> sorry, reading back I realise it might not have been clear that I'm talking about PSK31 and friends
[10:25] <gordonjcp> okay, why are you doing that?
[10:26] <gordonjcp> are you just keying FSK into the transmitter and using SSB to get it as a tone?
[10:27] <Laurenceb> yes
[10:27] <gordonjcp> simple but effective
[11:01] <SpeedEvil> What's the input bandwidth of the FM trans?
[11:01] <SpeedEvil> and the modulation area?
[11:01] <SpeedEvil> err
[11:02] <Laurenceb> <1Khz
[11:02] <SpeedEvil> I mean hardwarewise
[11:02] Action: SpeedEvil should probably wake up before asking RF questions
[11:03] Action: SpeedEvil wonders what he's asking.
[11:03] <Laurenceb> you mean the maximum possible fm deviation?
[11:03] <SpeedEvil> yes
[11:03] <SpeedEvil> that.
[11:03] <SpeedEvil> And the input bandwidth.
[11:03] <Laurenceb> +-10KHz
[11:03] <SpeedEvil> how fast it slews
[11:04] <Laurenceb> 10Kbps
[11:05] <SpeedEvil> I suppose as you wind up the symbol rate, and possible symbols to the output bit, you will increase SNR
[11:06] <SpeedEvil> this'll make the decoder performance explode tho
[11:06] <SpeedEvil> performance requirements
[11:12] <Laurenceb> according to the radiometrix site, with a yagi on the ground you could get ~300Km with their receiver
[11:15] Nick change: edmoore|away -> edmoore
[11:16] <SpeedEvil> The only gain in this case is the fade margin?
[11:16] <SpeedEvil> when you're trying to get another couple of hundred meters going into trees?
[11:16] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/communication:channel_capacity
[11:16] <SpeedEvil> oh - bandwidth
[11:40] <Laurenceb> http://www.radiometrix.co.uk/dsheets/usx2.pdf
[11:40] <Laurenceb> wonder if that would work on a balloon
[11:47] <Laurenceb> you could always stick http://www.radiometrix.co.uk/dsheets/bhx2.pdf on and be done with it
[11:47] <Laurenceb> ofcom would not approve :P
[11:58] <Laurenceb> I think some radiometrix modules might work for the challenge
[12:02] <Laurenceb> yeah I think two USX2 modules would do the trick - with a large yagi on the ground
[12:15] <Laurenceb> but with the erp rule you'll have to transmit at ~1mw --> range of ~70Km
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[12:51] <Laurenceb> you can get 140Km with the 500mw 869MHz modules, but it would require a modem to be built
[12:51] Action: SpeedEvil notes the 5W 1.2GHz video senders on dealextreme.com
[12:51] <SpeedEvil> just drop them after burst, while on the chute, and you're fine.
[12:51] Action: Laurenceb notes ofcom
[12:55] <Laurenceb> you could get close to 100mbps with that and a large dish
[12:56] <Laurenceb> if you were really clever
[12:56] <Laurenceb> more realistic might be 10Mbps
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> Is there a compelling reason - unless you don't plan on getting it back though.
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[15:34] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: with your 1.5W 1.2GHz module and a 6m dish you could get a theoretical max of 100Mbps over 400Km range
[15:58] <rjharrison> Ogg to ham shop
[15:58] <rjharrison> off
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[16:02] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: on one side?
[16:03] <Laurenceb> yes
[16:03] <Laurenceb> HDTV :P
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> Mmmm. Ham.
[16:06] Action: SpeedEvil ponders dinner.
[16:10] Action: SpeedEvil has way too much stuff.
[16:10] <SpeedEvil> (still clearing room)
[16:10] <SpeedEvil> Actually contemplating throwing some out.
[16:11] Action: Laurenceb ponders moonbounce
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> Do I in fact need 200 130MB PCMCIA drive PCBs
[16:11] Action: SpeedEvil chargez his lazuh.
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> Moonbounce from the balloon!
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[16:12] Action: SpeedEvil tries to remember the beamspread and spot-size of the reteroreflectors on the moon.
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> For radio, you're going to have problems with the 3-500Km depth blurring things.
[16:17] <Laurenceb> hmm looks like its possible
[16:18] <Laurenceb> with a couple of 1.5W transmitters, and a 3m dish
[16:20] <Laurenceb> theoretical throughput is about 0.3bps
[16:20] <SpeedEvil> on what freq?
[16:20] <Laurenceb> 1.2GHz
[16:20] <SpeedEvil> what are yhou assuming the moon is?
[16:20] <Laurenceb> using TV kit
[16:20] <Laurenceb> I used a freeware calculator
[16:20] <Laurenceb> http://www.k5rmg.org/tech/EME.html
[16:20] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> There's been moonbounce radar done.
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> I wonder on what freq.
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.radio.shortwave/2008-01/msg01400.html
[16:26] <SpeedEvil> http://www.arrl.org/?artid=7958
[16:28] <Laurenceb> looks like lower frequencies are best
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[16:58] <fergusnoble> anyone hear know about j-pole or slim jim antennas?
[16:59] <edmoore> a bit
[16:59] <edmoore> only what I've read on tinternet
[16:59] <edmoore> slim jim is a fairly neat extension to the j-pole concept
[16:59] <edmoore> otherwise there's not much to either of them - impedance matching is neat too, I think
[17:00] <edmoore> the radiation pattern of the slim jim looks good too, especilly for windier days
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[17:04] <fergusnoble> yeah, i wanted to ask if anyone had experience with having metal or other conductive things near the j section
[17:04] <fergusnoble> was wondering if that would upset it as its not actually the radiating element
[17:05] <hallam> yagi?
[17:05] <fergusnoble> j-pole / slim jim
[17:05] <edmoore> I suspect it might alter the field
[17:06] <edmoore> it would change the impedance of the j-section anyway
[17:06] <fergusnoble> yeah, but thats fine, you have to tune it anyway
[17:06] <edmoore> the arrl antenna handbook says keep 1/4 wavelength freespace around the entire thing
[17:07] <edmoore> but that's probably not based on anything in particular
[17:07] <fergusnoble> yeah
[17:07] <fergusnoble> people usually have the coax running in that area
[17:07] <edmoore> I dunno _ i guess it would be ok but you'd just alter the field pattern
[17:07] <hallam> for balloon-borne or ground use?
[17:07] <hallam> fergusnoble: did you not go to HoM in the end?
[17:07] <fergusnoble> balloon
[17:07] <fergusnoble> no
[17:07] <SpeedEvil> coz: that will work.
[17:08] <edmoore> ?
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> oops
[17:09] Action: SpeedEvil looks in excuse book.
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> Solar event causing RFI that interfered with my keyboard.
[17:11] <fergusnoble> hallam: ive made a package for the sige
[17:12] <fergusnoble> what else do we want on the board?
[17:12] <fergusnoble> ive got so far: sd card, sige, lpc
[17:12] <hallam> all the crap in the sige example circuit
[17:12] <hallam> easily accessible pads for the clock and data out
[17:13] <hallam> or are you just talking about parts?
[17:13] <fergusnoble> mainly talking about parts
[17:13] <SpeedEvil> power managment?
[17:13] <edmoore> a nokia lcd display, because obviously we'd want that
[17:13] <hallam> yeah actually
[17:13] <hallam> haha
[17:13] <edmoore> infact just buy some without telling anyone
[17:13] <hallam> and then complain when we smash it against someone's garden bench
[17:13] <SpeedEvil> nokia LCDs are so 2003.
[17:13] <edmoore> because it's just so obvious that we'd want one on
[17:14] <hallam> we do need some kind of power supply because the blackfin doesn't have one
[17:14] <fergusnoble> hallam: what power do we need, just a 5v linear?
[17:14] <hallam> 3.3V silly
[17:14] <hallam> what is this, 1998?
[17:14] <fergusnoble> ok good
[17:14] <fergusnoble> i thought you said it did the 3.3 onboard and used 5v elsewhere
[17:14] <fergusnoble> maybe you were saying it used 1.8 onboard
[17:14] <hallam> nope, it's 3.3V, the core is 1.8V or something
[17:15] <hallam> right
[17:15] <fergusnoble> how many electrons would you like per second?
[17:16] <hallam> 1.2E8
[17:16] <hallam> er, E18
[17:17] <edmoore> I was gonna say!!
[17:17] <fergusnoble> hehe
[17:17] <hallam> actually maybe 300mA to cover the SiGe and LPC as well
[17:17] <fergusnoble> ok, ill put in some margin
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> active antenna supply?
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> though that's prolly just an inductor
[17:18] <hallam> and capacitor I think
[17:18] <hallam> we should have an active ant version and a chip ant version
[17:18] <fergusnoble> if you could link me the details of the connector to the surveyor that would be good
[17:18] <fergusnoble> hallam: im thinking about a design that can be either
[17:19] <hallam> http://www.surveyor.com/blackfin/#blackfin1
[17:19] <fergusnoble> i think there are ways to do it by just leaving out a component or something
[17:20] <hallam> okay, if that works out that would be cool
[17:20] <hallam> we should make up a couple of boards anyway
[17:20] <SpeedEvil> accel/magnetometer pads?
[17:20] <hallam> the "S-32" document has the pinout, the eagle files are useful for placement although maybe not too relevant in this case
[17:20] <hallam> bad speedevil no biscuit
[17:21] <hallam> this is the minimal first version
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> Camera, for the star-tracker.
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:21] <hallam> that's already on the blackfin board
[17:21] <fergusnoble> SpeedEvil: were trying to get this board off to be made asap
[17:21] Action: SpeedEvil wishes mobile phone cams were a couple of orders of magnitude more sensitive.
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> Fair enough, I'm just wibbling.
[17:22] <hallam> SpeedEvil, tell me about it, the optics I had to put on that thing to get it to see stars were heavy and expensive
[17:22] <SpeedEvil> ESD protected clock/data out?
[17:23] <hallam> fergusnoble: quiche?
[17:23] Action: SpeedEvil puts in a petition for brighter stars.
[17:23] <fergusnoble> hallam: could be tempted
[17:24] <hallam> out of the oven in 8 minutes
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> hallam: tab to a quick hack estimate of a patch antenna, that you can just cut off it if doesn't work?
[17:24] <hallam> SpeedEvil: read "Nightfall"?
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> Not that bright.
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:25] <fergusnoble> SpeedEvil: was thinking that too :)
[17:25] <hallam> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8418
[17:25] <fergusnoble> but it might be possible without any pcb hacking after the fact
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> I've got a couple of those
[17:25] <fergusnoble> hallam: on my way
[17:25] <hallam> okay
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> I've yet to try them
[17:25] <hallam> the reports on the sparkfun forums are less than inspiring
[17:25] <hallam> but then, so are the posters on the sparkfun forums
[17:26] Action: Laurenceb back
[17:26] <edmoore> 'hey I'm stuck trying to understand precisely how the spi protocol works when using this controller to talk to this sensor?'
[17:26] <Laurenceb> hi hallam
[17:26] <edmoore> leon_heller: ' datasheet.'
[17:26] <Laurenceb> hi edmoore
[17:26] <hallam> hi Laurenceb
[17:27] <edmoore> hi
[17:27] Action: Laurenceb reads the scrolllback
[17:28] <hallam> every year there's a contest between leon and bigglez to see who can be the least useful poster
[17:28] <hallam> I'm suspicious that they're the same person
[17:28] Action: hallam prefers this contest: http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/2183/miss-atom-2009
[17:28] Nick change: hallam -> hallam|quiche
[17:29] <Laurenceb> haha
[17:29] <Laurenceb> the sige board sounds good
[17:29] <SpeedEvil> Some of the entrants show the effects though. http://feministing.com/imageStorage/betterthanbeer.jpg
[17:30] Action: Laurenceb has flown nokia displays for the bling....
[17:32] <edmoore> i remember what laurence bling looks like
[17:33] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:mihab:p1030033.jpg
[17:35] <Laurenceb> have you made any progress with the recovery?
[17:35] <SpeedEvil> Third stage - VTOL.
[17:36] <Laurenceb> roflcopter blades
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[18:15] <Laurenceb> cya all
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[19:12] <Laurenceb> ello
[19:13] <natrium42> ella
[19:14] <natrium42> nice, ariane 5 launched
[19:14] <Laurenceb> http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/image.php?u=97913&dateline=1234477080
[19:14] <Laurenceb> oh cool
[19:15] <hallam|quiche> wonder when the elements will be up on spacetrack
[19:15] <Laurenceb> is there a webcast?
[19:16] Action: Laurenceb is that bored
[19:16] <natrium42> 2209 GMT yesterday
[19:16] <natrium42> we missed it :(
[19:16] <Laurenceb> oh
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> 12.02.2009 22:09 V-187 5ECA 545 Hot Bird 10 , NSS-9 , Spirale Success[26] 43
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> says wikipedia
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirale
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> interesting.
[19:19] <natrium42> http://spaceflightnow.com/ariane/v187/spirale.jpg
[19:20] <Laurenceb> its not in space yet
[19:20] <Laurenceb> fool
[19:20] <hallam|quiche> http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa399.pdf this is a very interesting discussion of space-based early warning
[19:20] <Laurenceb> ... yes hydrazine
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> But wikipedia said it was launched!
[19:21] Action: natrium42 launches Laurenceb into the sun
[19:22] <Laurenceb> The Bush administration could help Russia
[19:22] <Laurenceb> irony
[19:23] <Laurenceb> - the guy appears to be wearing a space suit
[19:23] <Laurenceb> nvm
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> That's the Ariane payload manager.
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> He goes up with them, and doesn't come down.
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> It's the hidden tragedy of expendable launch vehicles.
[19:25] <natrium42> lol
[19:25] <hallam|quiche> I thought they used monkeys to save weight?
[19:25] <Laurenceb> yeah me too
[19:25] Nick change: hallam|quiche -> hallam|opera
[19:27] <Laurenceb> opera?
[19:29] <natrium42> the hallam of the opera.
[19:29] <hallam|opera> Gilbert and Sullivan >> homework
[19:29] <hallam|opera> actually leaving now
[19:33] edmoore (n=edmoore@pomegranate.chu.cam.ac.uk) left irc:
[19:42] <rjharrison> Icarus II is officially ready for launch
[19:42] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:42] <natrium42> rjharrison, yay
[19:42] <rjharrison> Tested and preped ready for the next fine w/e
[19:42] <natrium42> how's weather outlook for sat and sun?
[19:42] <rjharrison> ! good
[19:42] <natrium42> :(
[19:42] <rjharrison> In the C syntax
[19:43] <rjharrison> I even have a pass from the wife for the 14th for launch
[20:13] <Laurenceb> zd1¬ěpno
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[20:50] <Laurenceb> hallam: if you want to track at high g, you need a fairly big antenna
[20:51] <Laurenceb> luckly it seems to be a log/log relationship which maxg, signal strenght
[20:52] <Laurenceb> at least from what I can see, so a normal sized ~25mm square patch will give tens of g at least
[20:53] <Laurenceb> s/which/between
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[21:16] <rjharrison> fucking horses have broken into the garden
[21:16] <rjharrison> excuse my french
[21:16] <rjharrison> JUst had to round up large fightened lumps of meat
[21:18] <Hiena> rjharrison, carrot.
[21:18] <Hiena> Good filling for a horsemeat.
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[21:42] Nick change: Bluenarf -> EI5GTB
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[22:25] <SpeedEvil> http://www.zaphod.uwclub.net/attack.gif
[22:33] <rjharrison> Got the buggers back in the filed
[22:33] <rjharrison> field
[22:34] <rjharrison> 1 policeman 2 poicewomen
[22:34] <rjharrison> and about 20 people
[22:34] <SpeedEvil> :/
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[23:11] <Laurenceb> *yawn*
[23:11] <Laurenceb> good morning... oh
[23:11] Action: Laurenceb should develop normal sleep patterns
[23:21] <natrium42> lol
[23:21] <natrium42> Laurenceb, you're a grad student :P
[23:22] <Laurenceb> :D
[23:22] <natrium42> http://www.1234567890day.com
[23:22] <Laurenceb> "look out the window, we've got quite a vista"
[23:22] <natrium42> 9 mins left
[23:22] <Laurenceb> "all I see is car wrecks... must be a driver error"
[23:22] <natrium42> haha
[23:22] Action: natrium42 uses windows 7
[23:23] <Laurenceb> oh wow time to celebrate
[23:23] <Laurenceb> almost
[23:24] <natrium42> indeed
[23:25] <Laurenceb> there should be a massive disco or something, my neighbours need to get out more... oh
[23:28] <Laurenceb> ##1234567890
[23:29] <G8KHW> you should have seen the 0123456789 party
[23:31] <G8KHW> back in '73 phew we knew how to party back then
[23:35] <Laurenceb> http://www.google.co.uk/
[23:38] <Laurenceb> god that channel is madnesss
[23:41] <G8KHW> nights
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[23:54] <rjharrison> .
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[00:00] --- Sat Feb 14 2009