highaltitude.log.20090119

[00:00] <edmoore> what would life be without 2 of us ganging up on the other
[00:00] <Laurenceb> so... you can use an oven?
[00:00] <edmoore> I'm just waiting for the day when it'd be really useful to be able to turn off all our peripherals on the badger... just you wait!
[00:00] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: but yes, we have an external mould and apply the pressure using a silicone bag in the middle
[00:00] <Laurenceb> silicone bag....
[00:00] <Laurenceb> lol
[00:01] <Laurenceb> so the clave you use is just a large oven basically? no inert gas fill?
[00:01] <fergusnoble> well, we arent really using all the features
[00:02] <fergusnoble> the chamber can go up to 7 bar
[00:02] <fergusnoble> and also has facilities for drawing a vacuum on a mould and monitoring the vacuum
[00:02] <Laurenceb> nice
[00:02] <fergusnoble> so if you use a mould with a vac bag then you get 7+1bar of pressure
[00:03] <fergusnoble> but as were using an external mould we dont want the chamber pressure above atmospheric, we apply the pressure from the inside using the bag
[00:03] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:25] <Laurenceb> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mZiRiIpZVF4 ,--lol
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[08:44] <Laurenceb> hello
[08:51] <natrium42> hi
[08:51] <natrium42> ->sleep();
[08:51] <Laurenceb> have fun
[08:51] <Laurenceb> natrium42: for(;;)
[08:52] <natrium42> lol
[08:52] <natrium42> if(awakeTime()) break;
[08:52] <natrium42> nite
[08:52] <Laurenceb> set_sleep_mode(SLEEP_MODE_PWR_SAVE);
[08:53] <Laurenceb> #include <avr/sleep.h>
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[11:14] <jcoxon> morning
[11:14] <rharrison> morning
[11:15] <jcoxon> hey rharrison
[11:15] <jcoxon> got the day off till a lecture this afternoon at 3 :-)
[11:22] <Laurenceb> yeah
[11:22] <Laurenceb> they've blocked tons of site here :(
[11:22] <Laurenceb> no ebay or facebook
[11:23] <jcoxon> :-(
[11:23] <Laurenceb> I'm setting up xming
[11:25] <jcoxon> urgh i'm not going to be doing any work!
[11:26] <jcoxon> was considering whether to use my time constructively or not
[11:26] <Laurenceb> I'm waiting for my matlab script to run
[11:26] <Laurenceb> ... honest
[11:29] <jcoxon> hehe
[11:35] <edmoore> jcoxon: morning
[11:35] <edmoore> and Laurenceb
[11:35] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[11:35] <edmoore> all well this lovely marnon?
[11:36] <jcoxon> i'm in a good mood
[11:36] <jcoxon> survived my teaching this morning, got a sign up done and have nothing till 3pm
[11:36] <edmoore> wesome
[11:36] <edmoore> am about to start a lab writeup
[11:37] <edmoore> and return some books
[11:37] <edmoore> also
[11:37] <edmoore> I have got a new strategy for defending against degree work
[11:37] <edmoore> the best kind of defense is offence
[11:38] <jcoxon> wow
[11:38] <jcoxon> thats one big resolution though, would require proactiveness! I couldn't do that
[11:38] <edmoore> I'm going to keep it going till at least week 3
[11:39] <jcoxon> :-)
[11:40] <Laurenceb> offensive work?
[11:40] <edmoore> well, actually doing it
[11:40] <edmoore> instead of just fending it off with a stick
[11:41] Action: Laurenceb is offended
[11:41] <jcoxon> I'm at the moment working on the rules for the 2009 UKHAS Prize (X-Prize-styley)
[11:41] <Laurenceb> lulz
[11:41] <jcoxon> all the coolness with out hte 10million
[11:42] <Laurenceb> seriously?
[11:42] <jcoxon> yup
[11:42] <jcoxon> its a competition for you all
[11:42] <Laurenceb> hmm whats the object?
[11:42] <Laurenceb> sounds like an interesting plan
[11:43] <edmoore> jcoxon: exciting!
[11:43] <jcoxon> oh that'll be announced when i've finished the rules!
[11:43] <jcoxon> but it will require teams
[11:43] <edmoore> when is the announcement date?
[11:43] <jcoxon> anyone can get involved
[11:44] <jcoxon> ummm when rocketboy replies to my email to check that i haven't missed anything
[11:44] <jcoxon> (though steve is allowed to be involved!, its just me who can't cause i'm the judge/boss)
[11:44] <jcoxon> self appointed of course
[11:45] <edmoore> :)
[11:45] <edmoore> do you own the rights in perpetuity for all our inventions?
[11:46] <jcoxon> no
[11:47] <jcoxon> you can keep them
[11:47] <jcoxon> just to spur on a little bit of development :-D
[11:47] <jcoxon> i expect a CUSF team
[11:47] <jcoxon> (though i know you are busy with other things)
[11:53] <edmoore> I hope rocketboy hurries up :)
[11:53] <jcoxon> haha it might be a few hours
[11:53] <jcoxon> i did send it to him last night at about 1am so its in his inbox
[11:56] <jcoxon> it should be really fun - and i'm looking forward to seeing how the teams go about it
[11:56] <jcoxon> (of course it might fall flat on its face if people don't want to take part!)
[11:57] <Laurenceb> lol
[11:57] <Laurenceb> jcoxon owns us
[12:01] <jcoxon> Laurenceb: i'm not even sure what you mean by that!
[12:10] <jcoxon> bbl
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[12:45] <Laurenceb> edmoore: ping
[12:46] <edmoore> hi Laurenceb
[12:46] <Laurenceb> hi there, do you know how to do a 2D color plot in matlab?
[12:47] <Laurenceb> i.e. as opposed to a 3D mesh
[12:59] <Laurenceb> edmoore: http://courses.cit.cornell.edu/ee476/FinalProjects/s2006/jma65rt67/jma65rt67/index.htm#Design
[13:07] <edmoore> Laurenceb: sorry, went to lunch
[13:07] <edmoore> can you not just select the view angle?
[13:07] <Laurenceb> it takes too long to redraw
[13:08] <Laurenceb> I think image may work
[13:08] <Laurenceb> is there a way to reset the x and y axes?
[13:08] <edmoore> I did all the mars ladning ellipses with just a top down view of a 3d plot
[13:08] <edmoore> what do you mean by reset?
[13:09] <Laurenceb> so instead of zooming in
[13:10] <Laurenceb> I can say zoom in on an area of the y axis
[13:12] <edmoore> oh right
[13:12] <edmoore> yes
[13:13] <edmoore> xlim and ylim
[13:13] <Laurenceb> ok
[13:13] <Laurenceb> how do I set those?
[13:17] <edmoore> sorry, I am rather busy doing other stuff at the moment. GIYF, as they say
[13:19] <Laurenceb> thabnks for the help
[13:19] <edmoore> np
[13:19] <edmoore> am on other pc so irc checking is sporadic
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[14:18] <edmoore> fergusnoble: ping
[15:27] <fergusnoble> edmoore: hello
[15:27] <edmoore> yo
[15:27] <fergusnoble> sorry, was in supervision
[15:27] <edmoore> was just going to say, I think I've got the icom set up for repeater use
[15:27] <fergusnoble> whats up?
[15:27] <fergusnoble> ok
[15:28] <Laurenceb> I dont need drugs, I get high of altitude
[15:28] <fergusnoble> edmoore: want to try it then?
[15:29] <edmoore> ok
[15:29] <edmoore> what's your call?
[15:29] <fergusnoble> 1 sec, might need to go to engineering to get the rocket out the clave
[15:29] <fergusnoble> 2E0FRG
[15:29] <edmoore> no it isn't
[15:29] <edmoore> sort it out!
[15:32] <fergusnoble> ok am ready
[15:32] <edmoore> you try me first as i know your end works]
[16:04] <gordonjcp> woo and indeed yay
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[16:13] <rharrison> Did the repeater bit work?
[16:30] <Laurenceb> anyone used xming?
[16:59] <edmoore> rharrison: yes
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[17:10] <rharrison> cool
[17:11] <rharrison> hi jcoxon
[17:11] <jcoxon> hey
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[17:27] <M0TEK> jcoxon: what news?
[17:27] <jcoxon> hey ed
[17:27] <jcoxon> no news right now
[17:28] <jcoxon> soon
[17:30] <M0TEK> am waiting patiently :)
[17:31] <jcoxon> hehe
[17:32] <Laurenceb> MOTEK: whats with your nick?
[17:35] <M0TEK> ?
[17:35] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, its his ham callsign
[17:37] <Laurenceb> ah
[17:37] <Laurenceb> sorry
[17:37] <Laurenceb> you sound like a mayan god
[17:38] <rharrison> lol
[17:39] <rharrison> It does have that sound to it.
[17:39] <rharrison> Should be carved on a totam pole
[17:39] <rharrison> All hail the MOTEK
[17:39] <rharrison> Sort of indians in Peter Pan
[17:40] <M0TEK> we're waiting for the autoclave to cool down
[17:40] <M0TEK> it's venting gently in the corner
[17:40] <rharrison> You going to fire up the cam.
[17:40] <Laurenceb> it reminded me of that crazy bohemian grove conspiracy
[17:40] <Laurenceb> only that MOLEK
[17:41] <SpeedEvil> Naah. He's really the connector magnate.
[17:41] <rharrison> A few pics of what you have been cooking up would be good
[17:41] <SpeedEvil> M0TEK: remember - remove fuel before autoclaving!
[17:43] <M0TEK> SpeedEvil: thanks for thaat
[17:44] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BUK9508-55A-N-Channel-Power-FET-Transistor_W0QQitemZ290262297055QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Electronic_Components?hash=item290262297055
[17:44] <SpeedEvil> oops
[17:45] <jcoxon> this is interesting: http://pskreporter.info/pskmap?
[17:46] <Laurenceb> http://reseau.echelon.free.fr/reseau.echelon/satellites.htm
[17:51] <Laurenceb> wonder if one of those could intercept individual phones
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> sure.
[17:52] <SpeedEvil> Getting the phone up to the altitude would be hard though :)
[17:53] <Laurenceb> I dont think it would be directional enough to select individual cells
[17:53] <Laurenceb> maybe in very rural areas
[17:54] <Laurenceb> theres a video somewhere on one unfolding, but it looked to me like it was based on inflatable spars
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> Well - it's on the order of .01 radians beamwidth for a 10m dish, so at 200km altitude, 2km
[17:54] <rharrison> nights, i'm off home
[17:54] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: its in geostationary
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> 2km isn't that large a cell
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> oh
[17:55] <rharrison> Looking forward to the announcement
[17:55] <Laurenceb> supposidly
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[17:55] <Laurenceb> theres a project codenamed misty
[17:55] <Laurenceb> which may or may not be one of those in LEO
[17:55] <Laurenceb> basically inside a huge polythene bag - for stealth
[17:56] <Laurenceb> but somehow a video of the deployment recorded from the launch vehicle found its way online
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> There are concepts for dishes made of inflated structures
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> where the bag is the dish
[17:57] <Laurenceb> yeah, thats what it looked like to me
[17:57] <Laurenceb> cant find the video now :-/
[17:58] <Laurenceb> if you see a weird black thing in the sky... :P
[17:59] <Laurenceb> wonder if we could make one for a balloon
[17:59] <Laurenceb> wifi :D
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> http://www.fas.org/spp/eprint/article05.html
[18:03] <Laurenceb> "The group originated with the Kettering Boys School" lulz
[18:05] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[18:06] Action: SpeedEvil wants some funding to try this sort of stuff.
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[18:06] <SpeedEvil> (not the asat)
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[18:31] <Laurenceb> http://www.yb2normal.com/tricopter.html
[18:35] <Laurenceb> gtg
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[19:07] <fnoble_lab> hello
[19:07] <fnoble_lab> jcoxon: going to tell us about the competition yet?
[19:07] <jcoxon> nope
[19:07] <jcoxon> not yet
[19:07] <jcoxon> really want rocketboys to check over my proposed rules
[19:08] <jcoxon> rocketboy* there is only one of him :-)
[19:08] <gordonjcp> (thank fsck)
[19:08] Action: jcoxon is hacking fldigi right now
[19:09] <fnoble_lab> jcoxon: what you adding to it?
[19:10] <jcoxon> i've tapped into the waterfall, have it now taking the freq that is decoding and writing it to a file
[19:10] <jcoxon> next step is to have it reading a file so my webinterface can move the lines over the data peaks
[19:11] <fnoble_lab> ooh sexy
[19:11] <fnoble_lab> does fldigi track the peak?
[19:11] <jcoxon> it has a AFC yeah which is relatively good
[19:11] <fnoble_lab> so you can tell the radio to tune up or down when it gets close to one end?
[19:11] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:12] <fnoble_lab> neat-o
[19:12] <jcoxon> so now you can tune the radio and tune fldigi
[19:12] <fnoble_lab> sweet
[19:12] <jcoxon> then its time to grab the waterfall image and make it more accessible to a web browser
[19:12] <fnoble_lab> ordered the telescope today to make our yagi pointer out of
[19:12] <jcoxon> amazing
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[19:21] <fnoble_lab> hi RocketBoy
[19:38] <edmoore> hi RocketBoy
[19:38] <edmoore> jcoxon: is anxious for you to check and we are anxious for you to check on behalf of jcoxon :)
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[19:39] <jcoxon> haha
[19:44] <natrium42> what's going on?
[19:44] <natrium42> i dunno what's happening, but i will chime in in being anxious for RocketBoy to check with jcoxon
[19:45] <edmoore> natrium42: nicely done :)
[19:45] <natrium42> :)
[19:46] <jcoxon> woohoo, i can now tune fldigi via my web interface
[19:46] <natrium42> pics or it didn't happen!
[19:47] <jcoxon> hehe in a bit
[19:50] <edmoore> fnoble_lab: what's the latest?
[19:50] <edmoore> is she cool?
[19:50] <natrium42> which scope?
[19:50] <natrium42> by "she" you mean telescope, right?
[19:51] <edmoore> natrium42: meade ds-2080
[19:51] <edmoore> she = rocket
[19:51] <edmoore> which has been cooking
[19:53] <natrium42> ah, neat scope
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> what's cooking?
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> glass, carbon, kevlar?
[20:11] <jcoxon> voila
[20:11] <jcoxon> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/#ukhas_prize_2009
[20:12] <jcoxon> i might update the rules in the next couple of days
[20:15] <jcoxon> fnoble_lab, queens' aren't doing too well on university challenge
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> why latex only?
[20:16] Action: SpeedEvil was planning on trying a metal one soon.
[20:16] <jcoxon> cause i regard the legality of ZPs still a little debatable
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> how?
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[20:16] <jcoxon> the permission we get from the CAA was for standard meterological balloons
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> ah
[20:17] <rjharrison> any news on the jcoxon challenge
[20:17] <jcoxon> and no one has found out if that extends further
[20:17] <jcoxon> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/#ukhas_prize_2009
[20:21] <rjharrison> jcoxon: so there is more power available then you are useful
[20:21] <rjharrison> may need an edit
[20:21] <jcoxon> oops
[20:22] <rjharrison> count me in
[20:22] <jcoxon> done
[20:22] <rjharrison> I have an idea allready
[20:23] <jcoxon> good good
[20:23] <edmoore> jcoxon: I assume rule one is just for the balloons
[20:23] <jcoxon> get a team name and make a page
[20:23] <jcoxon> edmoore, what do you mean?
[20:23] <jcoxon> both uplink and downlink have to be licence exempt
[20:24] <edmoore> the uplink too?
[20:24] <edmoore> blimey
[20:24] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:24] <jcoxon> basically with an amateur licence you have to transmit to someone
[20:24] <jcoxon> apart from the CQ call
[20:24] <rjharrison> No broadcast
[20:25] <edmoore> could have just accidentally left the yagi pointing up into the sky :)
[20:25] <rjharrison> It is a bit tight I must say given that any self respecting ham would use their radio to tx the uplink
[20:25] <edmoore> how do we define payload cost?
[20:26] <jcoxon> i guess value of components
[20:26] <edmoore> so no telits allowed
[20:26] <jcoxon> thats not too important
[20:27] <edmoore> i mean if badger has more than £200 of stuff on it but it's pre-existing, which rule trumps which?
[20:27] <jcoxon> hmmm the original though was at launch
[20:27] <jcoxon> thought*
[20:27] <jcoxon> but i'll have a quick rethink about that one
[20:28] <edmoore> we'd probably remove cameras and telits to comply with that
[20:28] <jcoxon> rjharrison, perhaps but also lots of self respecting hams would complain as well
[20:28] <edmoore> which would seem to be slightly unecessary for the compeition
[20:29] <jcoxon> edmoore, yeah, they would be quite unnecessary
[20:29] <jcoxon> suggestions are very welcome for ammendments
[20:29] <edmoore> sure, but I meant that removing them to comply the competition is somewhat irrelevent to the aims of the competition, but in itself a shame to have to remove them
[20:30] <edmoore> when it's nice to stick a powershot on any flight.
[20:30] <jcoxon> we could exempt cameras and gsm backups from the value i guess
[20:31] <edmoore> I see what the rule is getting at, but it might need some tweakage.
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> total cost to launch a copy of the device with the same hardware, exempting any unrequired subsystems.
[20:31] <edmoore> that would include balloon and helium
[20:31] <edmoore> which would be unrealistic too
[20:32] <SpeedEvil> s/launch/produce/
[20:32] <SpeedEvil> excluding labour.
[20:34] <edmoore> I was chatting to my old boss two days ago
[20:34] <edmoore> he's putting one of those all-in-one analog devices 6DOF IMUs onto the next instrumentation board
[20:34] <edmoore> I mentioned how expensive they were compared to doing it yourself
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> moderately
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> It depends.
[20:35] <edmoore> and he said 'I charge ESA £150/hr. They don't want me to solder. This is cheaper for them.'
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> IIRC hitting some of the drift limits is hard with discrete parts.
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> There are quite nice MEMs accelerometers available at $250/axis
[20:36] <jcoxon> edmoore, don't worry about the value rule
[20:38] <edmoore> ok
[20:38] <edmoore> I'm not convinced of the need to be talking to a specific person. If you're building your own kit you're allowed to experiment with it, do range checks etc
[20:39] <edmoore> without having a conversation
[20:39] <edmoore> do you have a link to the license?
[20:39] <SpeedEvil> Do the met office routinely launch ZP as well as latex?
[20:40] <edmoore> I don't beleive so
[20:40] <RocketBoy> http://www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/licensing/classes/amateur/Licences/
[20:40] <edmoore> the ZP rule isn't a bother though, it's only one more thing to go wrong
[20:40] <edmoore> thanks RocketBoy
[20:40] <jcoxon> edmoore, yeah that was my thoughts as well
[20:40] <jcoxon> about ZPs
[20:41] Action: SpeedEvil was going to be trying a foil one anyway, and was idly wondering.
[20:41] <edmoore> can we provide FEC decoding?
[20:41] <edmoore> so we can use our own FEC scheme, if we provide the means to decode it
[20:42] <jcoxon> in theory if 2 stations receive it
[20:42] <edmoore> sure, if they both decode ok
[20:43] <jcoxon> and in the spirit of the thing if you sort of explained how to decode it in advance
[20:43] Action: SpeedEvil votes for the Father Jack FEC scheme.
[20:43] <edmoore> jcoxon: oh for sure
[20:43] <edmoore> it's not like it'll be some proprietary code. just it might not be built into the distributed tracker
[20:43] <RocketBoy> father Jack - what about the mother of all coding schemes
[20:43] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: does that involve saying it over and over again?
[20:43] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: yup.
[20:44] <edmoore> might want to put some telem in at some point :)
[20:44] <SpeedEvil> It's a trinary scheme.
[20:44] <SpeedEvil> 'Girls' 'Fec' 'That would be an ecumenical matter'.
[20:44] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, genius
[20:45] <edmoore> ah, I see 11.2 is interesting
[20:45] <edmoore> code you can address stuff to a repeater
[20:45] <edmoore> but i guess an airborne repeater doesn't count
[20:45] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:46] <jcoxon> thats what i we thought
[20:46] <jcoxon> maybe oneday we can get permission to run an airbourne repeater
[20:46] <jcoxon> but for this competition stick to the licence exempt
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> are the satellite amsats licensed?
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> the relays
[20:49] <edmoore> in the name of algorithm design, is there a character limit for this sentence?
[20:50] <jcoxon> they'll be a limit
[20:50] <jcoxon> let me think of one
[20:52] <jcoxon> hmmmm, suggestions?
[20:53] <edmoore> what's the average length of the sentence in your book?
[20:54] <jcoxon> i hadn't chosen the book
[20:54] <jcoxon> haha
[20:54] <RocketBoy> you don't want anthing too long as it limits some of the smaller processors - I suggest 20 chars would do
[20:55] <jcoxon> okay 20chars are fine
[20:55] <edmoore> exactly - atmega 8 has hardly any ram
[20:56] <RocketBoy> character set A-Z, a-z, 0-9, space
[20:56] <jcoxon> fullstop
[20:57] <edmoore> that's basically going to be ascii anyway isn't it?
[20:58] <edmoore> oh no ignore that
[20:58] <edmoore> can do it in 6 bits
[20:59] <RocketBoy> what about ITA2 (used for 5 bit 50baud RTTY) thats only capitals
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[21:03] <G8KHW> Humm - just A-Z and 0-9 then
[21:03] <Xenion> Guten Abend alle miteinander :-)
[21:04] <edmoore> 26+10 = 2^6 still I think
[21:04] <edmoore> unless you do the shifting thing
[21:04] <edmoore> never struck me as particularly robust
[21:05] <G8KHW> yes ITA2 is the shifting thing - 5 bits + 1 start and 1 to 2 stop bits - trust me I wrote a telex message switch once
[21:06] <G8KHW> when I was young as you
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[21:07] <edmoore> I guess actually the implimentation of that bit is up to individual competitors
[21:07] <jcoxon> yeah
[21:07] <jcoxon> i'm intrigued about how people are going to go about doing this all
[21:08] <edmoore> well badger2 was getting an uplink anyway but we might have to rethink slightly if we're going to try this.
[21:10] <jcoxon> :-)
[21:10] <jcoxon> then it'll be easy
[21:11] <jcoxon> hehe
[21:11] <edmoore> not really
[21:11] <jcoxon> even for a top gear style trophy
[21:11] <edmoore> didn't bargain on not being able to use 35W
[21:11] <jcoxon> i've added a link to the wiki for the ofcom licence exempt pdf
[21:11] <edmoore> cool thanks
[21:13] <rjharrison> So time to put the thinking caps on]
[21:13] <rjharrison> ping natrium42
[21:14] <jcoxon> i think 169.4-169.475 might come in useful
[21:14] <rjharrison> The antenna is going to be bigger
[21:15] <rjharrison> Perhaps cusf could weld one up
[21:15] <rjharrison> :)
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[21:16] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jcoxon' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[21:16] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jcoxon!n=jcoxon@host86-158-31-172.range86-158.btcentralplus.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk, wiki.ukhas.org.uk - UKHAS Prize 2009 http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/#ukhas_prize_2009
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[21:21] <rjharrison> Would be usefull to put up what the gound tx limits are
[21:21] <jcoxon> there is a pdf i've linked to
[21:21] <edmoore> it's in that doc rh
[21:21] <edmoore> rjharrison: *
[21:21] <rjharrison> Yep
[21:21] <jcoxon> in General Info
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[21:22] <edmoore> so we've got to listen to and retransmit a 20character message
[21:23] <jcoxon> yup, above 20km altitude
[21:24] <rjharrison> how did the cooking class go to day edmoore
[21:24] <edmoore> right
[21:24] <jcoxon> old school text system
[21:24] <edmoore> will have a chat and see if we'll go for it
[21:25] <jcoxon> cool
[21:27] <EI5GTB> should be handy...
[21:27] <EI5GTB> pitty i couldnt get to the uk to launch tho =/
[21:27] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, you can still be part of a team!
[21:27] <EI5GTB> oh i see
[21:28] <EI5GTB> well, ill put myself up for adoption by a team then :P
[21:29] <jcoxon> :-)
[21:30] <edmoore> radiometrix receivers ain't half deaf
[21:30] <edmoore> right, bbl
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[21:33] <rjharrison> EI5GTB I'll adopt you into my team of one so far
[21:33] <EI5GTB> ok. Sorted
[21:33] <rjharrison> Radio knowledge is a bit limit but I do have a working tx and tracker
[21:33] <rjharrison> limited
[21:34] <EI5GTB> cool, well, i have a...well, ill not go.erm...yea..... i know a biy about radio
[21:34] <EI5GTB> i have a ham call after all i suppose :P
[21:34] <rjharrison> Just need to interface the rx with the avr and we're nearly there. + sort out an uplink
[21:35] <EI5GTB> yea
[21:35] <EI5GTB> hmm, ok, rx... well, lets see
[21:35] <rjharrison> ok team name needed and I'll try to rope natrium or steve in later
[21:35] <EI5GTB> team name.. hmm
[21:36] <rjharrison> http://www.radiometrix.co.uk/products/ntx2nrx2.htm
[21:36] <EI5GTB> nice
[21:37] <EI5GTB> i was thing about starting to send the audiop to the avr and doing dsp etc.. but that could be an easier idea
[21:48] <rjharrison> How far is stanstead from cambridge?
[21:48] <rjharrison> drive time would do
[21:49] <jcoxon> not too far
[21:50] <G8KHW> outskirt to outskirt no more than 30mins
[21:51] <rjharrison> Thanks team member calculating cost to come over for launch
[22:11] <Xenion> Gute Nacht / good night - sleep well :-)
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[22:12] <natrium42> hehe, cool compo
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[22:17] <fergusnoble> jcoxon: sorry left irc logged in in the lab
[22:17] <fergusnoble> jcoxon: home now
[22:17] <fergusnoble> looks like the impetus we need to get the uplink going! :)
[22:17] <fergusnoble> really cool idea to run a comp
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[22:18] <fergusnoble> just to clarify we have to transmit exempt from the ground?
[22:20] <akawaka> comp?
[22:21] <natrium42> akawaka: topic
[22:21] <fergusnoble> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/prize:introduction
[22:28] <fergusnoble> edmoore: ping ping ping
[22:31] <rjharrison> nights all
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[22:32] <G8KHW> fergusnoble: yep LE uplink (as well as downlink)
[22:32] <fergusnoble> ok that makes it so much harder :(
[22:33] <fergusnoble> but i guess thats part of the fun
[22:33] <G8KHW> yep and no yagi on the TX
[22:34] <G8KHW> - but a stearable yagi is no problem on the rx at the balloon end though ;-)
[22:34] <fergusnoble> oh, so what antennas can you use?
[22:36] <G8KHW> as specified by IR2030
[22:36] <G8KHW> actually I think yo could use a yagi w
[22:36] <G8KHW> ith
[22:37] <G8KHW> gain as long as you don't exceed the erp levels speced in IR2030
[22:41] <fergusnoble> ok
[22:43] <fergusnoble> G8KHW: is the 868 band 500mW the most powerful band you are allowed?
[22:50] <G8KHW> yep
[22:51] <G8KHW> there are other of this power level (see IR2030 table 3.1 and 3.2)
[22:52] <G8KHW> http://www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/tech/interface_req/IR2030final.pdf if you haavn't already found it
[22:54] <fergusnoble> thanks, didnt have that
[23:00] <jcoxon> fergusnoble, think you'll have a team?
[23:00] <fergusnoble> yeah im pretty sure
[23:00] <jcoxon> excellent
[23:00] <jcoxon> hmmm wonder if i can persuade someothers to form a team
[23:00] <fergusnoble> want to talk to ed, but im sure he is keen too
[23:01] <fergusnoble> its a shame we cant use our ham for ground tx though, but i guess if we crack it, then using it with ham gear will be a sinch
[23:01] <jcoxon> well the thing is that we aren't sure about the legalities
[23:01] <fergusnoble> yeah
[23:01] <jcoxon> it sort of goes against section 11
[23:01] <jcoxon> and its more of a challenge
[23:01] <fergusnoble> i guess its kinda broadcasting
[23:02] <jcoxon> exactly
[23:02] <fergusnoble> yeah its a good challenge
[23:02] <jcoxon> cool mini old school texting system
[23:02] <fergusnoble> shame the LE rules are for erp not feedpoint power
[23:02] <fergusnoble> basically a yagi doesnt help you
[23:03] <jcoxon> thanks for the c++ help
[23:03] <jcoxon> i got hte code working
[23:04] <jcoxon> it reads from a file to tune fldigi
[23:04] <fergusnoble> oh great
[23:04] <fergusnoble> is it web interfaced yet?
[23:04] <jcoxon> not yet
[23:04] <jcoxon> need t oget it working on my other laptop
[23:04] <fergusnoble> ok
[23:05] <jcoxon> but will do
[23:05] <jcoxon> then i'll open up the system for people to play with
[23:05] <fergusnoble> G8KHW: can you use ham gear to transmit if your power is within the limits or does the hardware of the transmitter have to be sanctioned for LE use?
[23:06] <jcoxon> oooo just got a very interesting email off the ballooning list
[23:06] <fergusnoble> yeah?
[23:06] <jcoxon> bill brown just tested a sirfIII gps above 60k
[23:06] <fergusnoble> the ballooning list?
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[23:06] <jcoxon> its the EOSS list i think
[23:07] <jcoxon> just forwarded it to you
[23:08] <jcoxon> right i'm off
[23:08] <jcoxon> night all
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[23:34] <edmoore> i didn't realise we can't use a yagi on the ground either
[23:34] <edmoore> that's going to be a trick
[23:34] <edmoore> fergusnoble: back briefly
[23:35] <fergusnoble> edmoore: are we going to enter then?
[23:35] <fergusnoble> i think we should
[23:36] <edmoore> sure
[23:36] <edmoore> though i didn't realise you couldn't use a ground yagi
[23:36] <edmoore> i don't want to waste time doing stupid things just to make an uplink work within these narrow rules
[23:37] <edmoore> if there's a much better longer term soltuon for us, that is
[23:37] <edmoore> like steerable balloon RX yagis and very busy, high current DSPs
[23:38] <edmoore> it's worth a look though
[23:39] <edmoore> I'd be more keen on developing a cheap reliable uplink, with minimal faff on the payload
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[23:41] <jcoxon> back for a bit
[23:41] <jcoxon> just updating the rules
[23:41] <jcoxon> steve has pointed out you can use a yagi but with a lower power
[23:41] <jcoxon> as its E.R.P
[23:41] <fergusnoble> edmoore: yeah, agreed
[23:41] <jcoxon> which will make it more directional
[23:42] <edmoore> surely if it's ERP then it's erp
[23:42] <fergusnoble> edmoore: we should enter though, and if w dont get there we dont get there
[23:42] <edmoore> it's a power at a radius
[23:42] <fergusnoble> edmoore: yeah we can use a yagi
[23:42] <fergusnoble> edmoore: but its no advantage over a whip driven with more power
[23:42] <edmoore> like I think it would be good to use something simple like a radiometrix RX, but they're pretty deaf
[23:43] <fergusnoble> edmoore: the 169mhz band looks good, 500mW
[23:43] <fergusnoble> edmoore: radiometrix rx with a preamp?
[23:43] <edmoore> that's what I had in mind
[23:44] <fergusnoble> edmoore: i think its possible and in the process of developing it we will get a system that will work easily with ham gear uplink
[23:44] <edmoore> 169 is all well and good but it's three times the size of everything on the payload
[23:44] <fergusnoble> i.e. software will be the same, just pop in a 434mhz rx rather than 169
[23:44] <fergusnoble> edmoore: yes this is the real problem
[23:44] <fergusnoble> edmoore: where will we find straws that long? :p
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[23:45] <edmoore> where are we getting the 169 rx to pop in?
[23:46] <fergusnoble> radiometrix do one
[23:46] <fergusnoble> but we have till august
[23:46] <edmoore> why 169 over 868?
[23:46] <fergusnoble> maybe we should build the 434 one first, gain some experience
[23:46] <fergusnoble> and then try
[23:47] <fergusnoble> edmoore: better propagation and lower free space path loss
[23:47] <edmoore> but you've got 500mW
[23:48] <fergusnoble> path loss goes with freq^2
[23:48] <edmoore> the both plenty adequate for the data rates we want, but one is much more compact to build the hardware
[23:48] <fergusnoble> i think it will offer an advantage
[23:49] <edmoore> of course, but also a disadvantage
[23:54] <fergusnoble> anyway, maybe we should do an rx using ham gear first
[23:54] <edmoore> that has the advantage of just needing the one antenna too
[23:54] <edmoore> if we do it on 70cm
[23:55] <edmoore> i guess we can then do tests with pre-amps and gradually reducing the tx power
[23:56] <fergusnoble> can we do it with one antenna?
[23:56] <edmoore> yep
[23:57] <fergusnoble> using dicreete rx and tx?
[23:57] <edmoore> yep
[23:57] <edmoore> with a diplexer
[23:57] <fergusnoble> but its the same band? how does the diplexer filter it?
[23:58] <fergusnoble> i guess the 2way modems must do something
[23:58] <edmoore> i think we'd probably listen on a slightly different freq
[23:58] <edmoore> .075 maybe
[23:58] <fergusnoble> shall we put the radiometrix rx footprint on the oard?
[23:58] <edmoore> I think clause 10 allows us to use amatuer bands for the control of remote equipment
[23:58] <fergusnoble> would have to be a narrow ass filter then
[23:59] <fergusnoble> edmoore: i agree
[23:59] <fergusnoble> i think it is legal
[23:59] <fergusnoble> but its still far from clear cut
[23:59] <fergusnoble> so i understand jcoxon's decision, also its more of a challenge
[00:00] --- Tue Jan 20 2009