highaltitude.log.20090118

[00:00] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[00:00] <SpeedEvil> What are the axes?
[00:00] <Laurenceb> y=code phase, x=doppler, color is signal amplitude
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> Might you have a problem with cock jitter?
[00:02] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[00:02] <Laurenceb> lol
[00:03] <Laurenceb> no I have that under control
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> So you should ideally for a small time sample get a verticle bar only?
[00:03] <Laurenceb> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MgYjAIFgL._SL500_AA280_.jpg
[00:04] <hallam> uhhhh
[00:04] <Laurenceb> no, a point
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> Sorry - not typing that one :)
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: surely it's a point only if you're locked into the code phase.
[00:05] <Laurenceb> I'm not locked to anything
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> Otherwise the phase will drift.
[00:05] <Laurenceb> its a code phase doppler search
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> Or is this a 1ms sample?
[00:06] <Laurenceb> yeah 1000 1ms samples
[00:06] <Laurenceb> averaged
[00:06] <hallam> then the code phase will smear
[00:06] <hallam> wpmt
[00:06] <hallam> won't it?
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> animate!
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> 1 frame per ms.
[00:07] <Laurenceb> that would be very noisy
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> 20ms is inherently doable
[00:08] <Laurenceb> it should smear that much
[00:08] <Laurenceb> it has to smear by 300Km to go right across the image
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> how long a sample was it?
[00:09] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: signals at low elevations have low amplitudes
[00:09] <Laurenceb> 2 sconds
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> ah
[00:09] Action: SpeedEvil thinks an overhead trace for comparison would be sane
[00:09] <Laurenceb> so about 6Km maximum smearing
[00:09] <Laurenceb> yeah I'll look back at the ephemeris
[00:10] <Laurenceb> and see what sats were visible
[00:10] <SpeedEvil> Multipath'll be quite bad at low elevations too.
[00:10] <Laurenceb> thats the point !
[00:10] Action: SpeedEvil forgot what you were trying to do with this.
[00:11] <Laurenceb> hopefully its possible to reconstruct 2D slices of atmosphere from low elevation observations
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> I meant multipath off the ground
[00:11] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:11] <Laurenceb> that actually helps
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> As that seems to me it'd be orders of magnitude stronger than the atmospheric multipath
[00:11] <Laurenceb> not at low elevations
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> But I haven't done any research
[00:12] <Laurenceb> it will be lower in all likelyhood
[00:12] <Laurenceb> especially as it will be mostly LHCP
[00:12] <Laurenceb> not RHCP direct radiation
[00:13] <Laurenceb> one topic of research is polarization flip measurements with Bistatic SAR
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> You are adding total signal power recieved - not getting confused by varying phases due to nav bits?
[00:15] <SpeedEvil> stupid question, I know.
[00:18] <Laurenceb> yeah I take abs for each ms of data
[00:18] <Laurenceb> just a sec I'll pastebin the code
[00:18] <hallam> later
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[00:20] <SpeedEvil> Umm. You're trying to extract doppler from a single ms?
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> That sounds likely to be extremely noisy.
[00:22] <SpeedEvil> ik: practically all plastics are insane insulators till dopes
[00:22] <SpeedEvil> doped
[00:23] <Laurenceb> http://pastebin.com/m68e5916a
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> oops
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> Sorry - about to go to slee p - I can't read that now.
[00:24] <Laurenceb> cya
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> Night.
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> good luck
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[10:24] <jcoxon> morning all
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[11:13] <rharrison_eee> morning all
[11:13] <rharrison_eee> ANY NEWS?
[11:13] <rharrison_eee> Opps
[11:13] <rharrison_eee> Caps Locked
[11:19] <EI5GTB> the iaa told me i need permission from met eireann for a baloon launch
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[12:02] <rharrison_eee1> EI5GTB: That is unusual
[12:03] <EI5GTB> yea
[12:03] <EI5GTB> thats what i thought
[12:03] <rharrison_eee1> The met office really shouldn't be a position to say if you can launch
[12:03] <EI5GTB> i know
[12:04] <rharrison_eee1> They won't take in the necessary restrictions
[12:04] <EI5GTB> but hey, if i get a thumbs up from someone, that means i can get the radio eqiptment on the payload licenced
[12:04] <rharrison_eee1> In the UK the met office is crap at coming back to you
[12:04] <rharrison_eee1> Yep That would be cool
[12:04] <EI5GTB> probably will be crap here too
[12:04] <rharrison_eee1> EI5GTB: How far from launch are you?
[12:05] <EI5GTB> very
[12:05] <rharrison_eee1> hehe
[12:05] <EI5GTB> havnt started ther payload yet.. waiting to see if i can actually get permission
[12:05] <rharrison_eee1> Ok so there is time to get the permission sorted out
[12:05] <EI5GTB> i have some of the compnents ready tho
[12:05] <EI5GTB> i have my 2m downlink module made
[12:06] <rharrison_eee1> Great what did you use as the tx
[12:06] <EI5GTB> im wondering now what route to go down with the flight computer
[12:06] <EI5GTB> im thinking 100% custom
[12:06] <EI5GTB> with a good backup system
[12:06] <EI5GTB> i used a stripped out fdc handheld
[12:06] <rharrison_eee1> The atmega has been great for me
[12:06] <rharrison_eee1> Cool
[12:06] <EI5GTB> im planning on putting a 440mhz backup system aswell
[12:07] <rharrison_eee1> wow good to have both bases covered
[12:07] <EI5GTB> yup
[12:07] <rharrison_eee1> One of those radiometrix modules would be perfect ~15 GBP
[12:08] <EI5GTB> thats 2 totally redundant systems... the 440mhz will just have essential position beacons.. and the 2m will have.. everything else
[12:08] <rharrison_eee1> 434.075 would be good
[12:08] <rharrison_eee1> cool
[12:08] <EI5GTB> everything else = aprs.. and.. i donno..
[12:08] <rharrison_eee1> we may even pick up 2m here in the uk
[12:08] <EI5GTB> i might KISS for the first launch
[12:08] <EI5GTB> woo, powers gone off
[12:08] <EI5GTB> woo, thunder
[12:08] <rharrison_eee1> what proto are you going to use on the tx
[12:08] <EI5GTB> maybe aprs
[12:09] <rharrison_eee1> Put the antenna down
[12:09] <EI5GTB> yea, put all 6 antennas down
[12:09] <rharrison_eee1> is that a protocol aprs? is it like rtty
[12:09] <rharrison_eee1> or cw
[12:10] <EI5GTB> naw, its ah25 packet
[12:10] <EI5GTB> ax25*
[12:10] <EI5GTB> fsk
[12:10] <EI5GTB> :D powers back
[12:11] <EI5GTB> and im not sure what ill use on the 440mhz side
[12:11] <rharrison_eee1> cool do you have 2 way coms for ax25
[12:12] <rharrison_eee1> ie if an error is detected in the packet dont you have to resend
[12:13] <rharrison_eee1> Ie acknowledge packet received and all that jazz
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[12:13] <EI5GTB> hmm ,wait, i didnt really describe that properly.. its not really ax25
[12:13] <rharrison_eee1> or will ax25 work with just tx and not rx
[12:13] <EI5GTB> its like a udp version
[12:13] <rharrison_eee1> OK
[12:13] <EI5GTB> so its just sending and all the other stations are listening
[12:13] <rharrison_eee1> Basically it will work then
[12:14] Nick change: rharrison_eee1 -> rharrison_eee
[12:14] <EI5GTB> yea
[12:14] <rharrison_eee> cool
[12:14] <rharrison_eee> So do you have a launch date in mind?
[12:14] <rharrison_eee> I'm hoping to launch here in early feb
[12:15] <rharrison_eee> You may even be able to listen in Ireland
[12:15] <rharrison_eee> Are you this side? or the the far side?
[12:16] <EI5GTB> im on the wesht!
[12:16] <EI5GTB> im hoping to launch in july some time
[12:17] <EI5GTB> maybe early august
[12:17] <rharrison_eee> Well with a bit of luck you might be able to decode the rtty
[12:17] <EI5GTB> yea
[12:17] <rharrison_eee> We did about 250 miles the other day without a problem
[12:18] <EI5GTB> my first launch is gonna be interesting to say the least
[12:18] <EI5GTB> due to the fact iv never done it before
[12:18] <rharrison_eee> Yep all the unknowenss
[12:18] <EI5GTB> i may make a trip to one of your launches to see how its done
[12:18] <rharrison_eee> I really enjoyed my fist.
[12:18] <rharrison_eee> I did it on my own too and it was a bit fingers crossed
[12:18] <rharrison_eee> firt
[12:19] <rharrison_eee> first even
[12:19] <EI5GTB> XD
[12:19] <EI5GTB> on your own? lol, i would plan yo have 2 chase cars
[12:19] <EI5GTB> to*
[12:20] <rharrison_eee> Yep that would be cool
[12:20] <EI5GTB> and both veichles will be tracked on aprs
[12:20] <rharrison_eee> I think you might kill yourself if you try to track and drive at the same time
[12:20] <rharrison_eee> I nearly did
[12:20] <EI5GTB> and each of them will have a map,. showing the current position of the other car and the baloon
[12:21] <EI5GTB> yea, driving and talking on the radio is bad enough, but dricing and tracking a thing 20km up is another matter
[12:21] <rharrison_eee> right battery about to die
[12:22] <rharrison_eee> will chat later
[12:22] <rharrison_eee> good luck with the met office
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[14:34] <rjharrison> .
[14:34] <rjharrison> Quiet on here
[14:35] <EI5GTB> indeed
[14:36] <EI5GTB> puddin time
[14:36] <EI5GTB> brb
[14:36] <rjharrison> ok
[14:56] <EI5GTB> and back
[15:02] <rjharrison> I have applied for my explosives aquiring and holding licence today
[15:02] <rjharrison> hehe I need some blackpowder for payload cutdown
[15:03] <rjharrison> I phoned up and said I was guy fawkes :)
[15:12] <EI5GTB> lol
[15:12] <EI5GTB> dont you have to pas a test to get that liceence>?
[15:12] <EI5GTB> thats somthing i should think about oo, is payload cutdown
[15:12] <EI5GTB> seeing as how we have water everywher
[15:13] <hallam> Sal (CUSF member) and I were experimenting with cutdowns yesterday
[15:13] <hallam> I really like what she came up with
[15:14] <hallam> ~5 ohm resistor pinched under a cable tie that's wrapped around some kind of round object
[15:14] <hallam> it
[15:14] <hallam> it's really solid and works nicely
[15:14] <hallam> severs the cable tie in a few seconds
[15:15] <hallam> only issue is temperature effects on the tie, but I think that's not a big deal when the tie isn't being flexed a lot
[15:16] <EI5GTB> hmm
[15:22] <hallam> EI5GTB: have you thought about crossing the Irish sea?
[15:23] <EI5GTB> yes
[15:23] <EI5GTB> its too difficult to get permission to do it over here
[15:23] <EI5GTB> so i really wouldnt be botherd getting permission from moth countries
[15:28] <rjharrison> i like the cable tie idea
[15:29] <hallam> I think permission is only needed for the release, not the landing
[15:29] <EI5GTB> yea, but my radio equiptment would be going into the uk
[15:29] <rjharrison> Was the with a 9v supply
[15:29] <EI5GTB> so i would need permission from ofcom
[15:29] <rjharrison> that
[15:31] <rjharrison> hallam: was the with a 9v pp3?
[15:31] <rjharrison> hum cant type
[15:31] <rjharrison> that
[15:31] <hallam> actually a 6V photo lithium
[15:32] <rjharrison> Does that give more amps?
[15:32] <hallam> I dare say it would would work with a PP3, or a couple of AAAs
[15:32] <hallam> it drew less than an amp
[15:32] <rjharrison> Cool
[15:33] <hallam> I'd recommend lithium of some kind though because other batteries have increased internal resistance in the cold
[15:33] <rjharrison> that might be safer than blackpowder
[15:33] <rjharrison> 9v Lithium?
[15:33] <hallam> eh, tiny amounts of black powder are pretty safe, but in my experience not super reliable
[15:33] <hallam> yeah sure
[15:33] <hallam> you could use your flight computer battery
[15:33] <rjharrison> hum
[15:33] <hallam> this one only dropped from 6V to about 5.6 while firing
[15:34] <rjharrison> I think I#ll keep it sep
[15:36] <rjharrison> dose the cable tie have lower melting point than the string used to tie the baloon?
[15:37] <hallam> depends on the string, probably, but that's not the reason for using it
[15:37] <rjharrison> go on
[15:37] <hallam> the nice thing about this method is that there's tension in the tie, holding it tight against the resistor for melting purposes, and also ensuring that it doesn't flex during ascent
[15:38] <hallam> neither the resistor nor the tie are load-bearing in the sense of carrying the weight of the payload
[15:38] <EI5GTB> how does that work?
[15:38] <rjharrison> that was what I was thinhking
[15:39] <hallam> well, you tie another string around the cable tie at a different point to the resistor
[15:39] <hallam> that's load-bearing
[15:40] <rjharrison> ok cool
[15:40] <hallam> but it still undergoes much less abuse during ascent
[15:40] <rjharrison> So the CT is load bearing but not against the R
[15:40] <hallam> right
[15:40] <rjharrison> That makes sense
[15:40] <hallam> and really it's not so much taking the weight itself, as it's pinching the string against the, er, round thing
[15:41] <rjharrison> would you insulate any of this?
[15:41] <hallam> not against the cold, no point
[15:41] <hallam> it would still cool before you got to altitude
[15:42] <rjharrison> ok will try a test on next launch
[15:42] <rjharrison> feb
[15:43] <rjharrison> There has be failure of ct's on prev. launch at alt
[15:43] <hallam> I know
[15:43] <rjharrison> But I guess that would mean early cutdown
[15:44] <hallam> true
[15:44] <rjharrison> not a big prob.
[15:44] <hallam> also, those were under a lot more stress than I think this would be
[15:44] <rjharrison> Betther than the last prob with the payload train
[15:44] <hallam> right
[15:45] <hallam> I wonder if some types of cable tie are better than others
[15:45] <rjharrison> for sure
[15:45] <rjharrison> Farnell ones are alot better than maplin ones
[15:45] <rjharrison> U get what U pay for
[15:46] <rjharrison> will conduct some tests here too
[15:47] <rjharrison> hallam: I assume U ok with me having a play with thiss
[15:47] <rjharrison> no IP rights?
[15:48] <rjharrison> :P
[15:48] <hallam> haha, of course
[15:49] <rjharrison> different ct may be better
[15:49] <rjharrison> Blackones seem softer
[15:49] <rjharrison> lower p?
[15:49] <rjharrison> mp?
[15:49] <EI5GTB> right, feck this, im tired of having only one screen.. time to set up a dual screena gain
[15:49] <EI5GTB> bbiab
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[15:50] <hallam> I'm more interested in their glass transition temperature I guess
[15:50] <rjharrison> WTFIT
[15:50] <rjharrison> what.the...Is that
[15:51] <hallam> how cold it can get before it becomes brittle
[15:51] <rjharrison> Sounds good Like you know what you're talking about
[15:51] <rjharrison> ahh
[15:51] <rjharrison> good point
[15:51] <rjharrison> But like you say I think that this will be under less stress
[15:52] <hallam> yeah
[15:52] <hallam> wikipedia says your bog standard cable tie is made of nylon, which IIRC has a Tg around room temperature
[15:52] <rjharrison> round bit should be somthing like balsa wood
[15:52] <hallam> so no wonder it gets brittle at -40
[15:52] <hallam> yeah, we used plywood in our test but balsa should be ok
[15:52] <rjharrison> also lighter
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[15:53] <hallam> right
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[15:55] <hallam> http://www.wurth.co.uk/catalogue/pdfs/UK-CD_02_3016.pdf
[15:55] <hallam> "Does not become brittle or porous at low temperatures."
[15:55] <hallam> although it's still nylon
[15:55] <hallam> maybe the one that failed on the UKHAS launch was just undersized for the loads
[15:56] <rjharrison> Yep and I thought those were B&Q ones
[15:57] <rjharrison> I may test tonight with the freese spay going at -50c
[15:57] <rjharrison> spray
[15:58] <rjharrison> not a perfect sim but it's prob more extream
[15:58] <hallam> it's partly the temperature and it's partly the repeated flexing under load for an hour or more
[15:59] <rjharrison> The balsa should help reduce flex too
[16:00] <hallam> the spray test sounds like a good idea, you can see whether they become brittle
[16:00] <hallam> back in a bit, food time
[16:00] <rjharrison> np
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[16:20] Nick change: Bluenarf -> EI5GTB
[16:20] <EI5GTB> ffs, prick of a pci graphics card is fecked
[16:20] <EI5GTB> to ebay, a new agp dual head i shall buy
[16:24] <rjharrison> bugger!
[16:24] <rjharrison> Hey ho
[16:26] <EI5GTB> hello, im bak
[16:26] <EI5GTB> still on a single screen =/
[16:27] Action: SpeedEvil chops off EI5GTBs head, to see if he'll grow another.
[16:27] <SpeedEvil> It works for the hydra.
[16:28] <EI5GTB> lol
[16:28] <EI5GTB> http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300281586024&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=120326649537&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=StoreCatToStoreCat&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget&_trksid=p284.m184&_trkparms=algo%3DDR%26its%3DS%252BI%252BSS%26itu%3DISS%252BUCI%252BSI%26otn%3D4
[16:28] <EI5GTB> how about one of those?
[16:28] <hallam> I had one, it worked fine
[16:29] <hallam> although
[16:29] <hallam> I never buy anything on eBay from Hong Kong any more
[16:29] <EI5GTB> oh?
[16:29] <hallam> it's probably a fake
[16:30] <hallam> there are a ton of sellers selling fake electronics
[16:30] <EI5GTB> i see..
[16:30] <hallam> in my case it was an MP3/video player
[16:30] <hallam> advertised to be 8GB
[16:30] <hallam> the user interface was pretty much unusable
[16:30] <EI5GTB> i see..
[16:30] <hallam> battery life 1/4 what they quoted
[16:30] <hallam> and best of all
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> On that sort of topic.
[16:31] <hallam> it actually had a 512MB flash chip inside, but the FAT partition table was hacked so it would appear to be 8GB
[16:31] <hallam> put more than a few hundred MB on it and it just corrupts the old stuff
[16:31] <EI5GTB> oh, that was shitty
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> I recently bought http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300281586024&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> &refitem=120326649537&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=StoreCatToStoreCat&refwidgettype=
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> cross_promot_widget&_trksid=p284.m184&_trkparms=algo%3DDR%26its%3DS%252BI%252BSS%26itu%3DISS%252BUCI%252BSI
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> %26otn%3D4
[16:32] Action: SpeedEvil sighs
[16:32] <EI5GTB> fail..
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.ie/PURE-Oasis-Rechargeable-Weatherproof-DAB-Digital-Radio_W0QQitemZ130275121867QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_AudioVisualElectronics_PortableAudio_Radios?hash=item130275121867&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> that
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> Ok, it's a bit bulky
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> But ~13h, waterproof, good sound quality (modulo shitty bitrate mp2)
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> Though I got a refurb one for ~60
[16:34] <EI5GTB> nice
[16:34] <hallam> looks like a nice concept
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> I've previously tended to the 4-5 quid radios.
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> Which generally sort-of-work.
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> But the UI on this is nice, no fiddling with batteries, and it's plenty loud enough, and I don't have to worry about it getting wet when working outside
[16:36] <EI5GTB> 42.96 British pounds = 47.6274586 Euros :D
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> :/
[16:37] <EI5GTB> my predictions were correct, the sterling is starting to loose value again
[16:37] Action: SpeedEvil wishes he'd bought stuff a bit ago.
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> A _large_ fraction of electronics stuff has recently gone up by ~1/3
[16:38] <EI5GTB> ouch
[16:38] <SpeedEvil> (those listed in pounds that is)
[16:40] <EI5GTB> i see
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[17:15] <hallam> Hi Steve
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[18:06] <RocketBoy> hallam:hiya - have you got ant recomendations for plastic sheet with low helium diffusion?
[18:06] <hallam> hm
[18:07] <hallam> ours is polyethylene of some kind
[18:07] <hallam> it's special because it's made without the additive that gives UV protection
[18:07] <hallam> the additive makes it difficult to weld cleanly, so they made a batch without it
[18:08] <hallam> we have loads and loads of it, you're welcome to a few hundred feet
[18:08] <hallam> it's 25 microns thick, I think
[18:09] <hallam> I can only assume that it has fairly low He diffusion or Andy Elson wouldn't have chosen it
[18:12] <RocketBoy> tnx - is for this re-usable teather Idea (parafoil drops) - so I'm looking for somthing robust with low diffusion
[18:13] <RocketBoy> but not to worried about UV
[18:13] <RocketBoy> too
[18:13] <EI5GTB> right, thats the nuvi sat nav dismantled
[18:13] <EI5GTB> boredoms a terrible thing
[18:13] <hallam> bigger is better for diffusion, lower surface area to vol ratio
[18:13] <hallam> could maybe paint the outside with something as well
[18:14] <hallam> EI5GTB: what are you going to do to it?
[18:14] <RocketBoy> hallam: I wondered about the foil balloons
[18:14] <hallam> hm
[18:14] <RocketBoy> thet seem to last
[18:14] <hallam> the party ones?
[18:14] <RocketBoy> yeah - several weeks normally
[18:14] <hallam> could work
[18:14] <EI5GTB> hallam, to look at the gps module, route usb to another port and to fix the speaker
[18:15] <hallam> the foil ones are a bit easy to accidentally rip though
[18:15] <hallam> the 25um poly is nice and sturdy
[18:15] <hallam> EI5GTB, the USB is already routed to two ports, how many more do you need? :)
[18:16] <RocketBoy> Or there is this hi-float stuff - http://www.hi-float.com/ - for latex balloons
[18:16] <EI5GTB> hallam, nope, only usb at 1 port
[18:17] <hallam> oh, I used a nuvi that had one conventional mini-usb and also a docking connector for dash-mount that had the USB signals as well
[18:17] <RocketBoy> hallam: I have some I'm going to play with at some time - but I just think latex balloons are a bit pants sturdy wise
[18:17] <EI5GTB> hallam, hmm, i see, on the 350 thats just power, no usb on it
[18:18] <hallam> looks interesting but agree about the non-sturdiness
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[18:52] <jiffe20> anyone ever heard of a non-commercial entity?
[18:52] <rjharrison> university
[18:52] <rjharrison> local gov
[18:52] <jiffe20> seems to be like a non-profit entity but not forced to not make profit
[18:53] <rjharrison> charity
[18:53] <rjharrison> any good?
[18:53] <jiffe20> charity I would assume to be a non-profit organization
[18:54] <jiffe20> I'm thinking about creating a legal entity, sort of as a buffer, and came across that last night
[18:54] <hallam> maybe non-profit is a subset of non-commercial
[18:54] <rjharrison> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-commercial
[18:54] <jiffe20> yeah thats what I read last night
[18:54] <rjharrison> hehe
[18:55] <jiffe20> I didn't see a whole lot else, was reading on the sd.gov website and couldn't find anything, but thats no surprise
[18:55] <hallam> what are you trying to protect yourself against?
[18:56] <jiffe20> not really so much protection, just a named organization I can use such as copyright ownership
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[19:01] <jiffe97> ubuntu updates apparently needed a reboot, dropped my wireless
[19:04] <gordonjcp> you didn't miss anythign
[19:04] <gordonjcp> *anything
[19:05] <hallam> apart from the treasure
[19:05] <jiffe97> damnit
[19:05] <jiffe97> I knew I should have waited on the update
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[19:54] <hallam> Hullo edmoore
[19:54] <edmoore> yp
[19:57] <edmoore> yo*
[19:57] <hallam> any thoughts on the supersonic balloon I mentioned earlier?
[19:57] <edmoore> what news of today?
[19:57] <hallam> I haven't been in lab
[19:57] <hallam> but presumably they did more laying up
[19:58] <edmoore> we should chat more. too tired to do any analysis now
[19:58] <edmoore> but balutes are conceptually cool, if you can get them to work
[19:58] <hallam> right
[19:59] <hallam> didn't want to say the ballute word for fear of ridicule
[19:59] <hallam> but I think it could be a fun way to put a decelerator on the rocket
[20:00] <edmoore> it's a ballute, like it or not :)
[20:00] <hallam> sure is
[20:00] <edmoore> i guess the only question is mass. I'm not sure how well it would scale
[20:01] <edmoore> had a look at a single stage hypercone too for the entire descent, and decided it basically doesn't scale at all well to our app
[20:01] <hallam> I put it into my matlab rocket sim
[20:02] <hallam> it would still require dual deployment, but the second stage chute can be a tiny 36"er with very benign opening loads, could weigh only 50g or so
[20:02] <hallam> to use the ballute all the way down needs too much fill gas
[20:04] <hallam> http://www.ahoyhoy.org/wordpress/index.php?p=230 balute vs ballute
[20:05] <edmoore> would be interesting to see a proof of concept, mas-wise
[20:06] <hallam> 100g latex and one of those 16g CO2 cartridges, optionally refilled with helium and overrated a bit
[20:07] <hallam> or airbag gas generator, or..
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[20:10] <SpeedEvil> stainless steel foil welded ballute.
[20:14] <edmoore> i wonder how the balloon would hold up at high mach without being... more ballute shaped
[20:15] <edmoore> lots have ram air scopps at the back for the inflation and also mainly to keep it stiff
[20:15] <edmoore> and not looking like a jellygish having a fit
[20:15] <edmoore> scoops*
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[20:18] <fergusnoble> hello
[20:18] <fergusnoble> hallam: hows it going?
[20:20] <hallam> Hi Fergus
[20:20] <fergusnoble> RocketBoy: still around, saw you pm'd me?
[20:20] <hallam> getting hungry
[20:21] <fergusnoble> hallam: just laid up a new rocket
[20:21] <hallam> oh wonderful
[20:21] <fergusnoble> the bag is holding pressure nicely still, will get cooked tomorrow
[20:21] <hallam> sorry I wasn't there, been feeling a bit ropey today
[20:21] <hallam> brilliant
[20:21] <fergusnoble> yeah, no worries
[20:21] <hallam> did the layup go well?
[20:21] <fergusnoble> went ok
[20:21] <fergusnoble> just standard really
[20:22] <fergusnoble> adding a final layer of teflon to protect the bag seemed to work well
[20:22] <RocketBoy> fergusnoble: yep - but I emailed
[20:22] <fergusnoble> but the proof will be in the removal
[20:23] <fergusnoble> RocketBoy: the predictor can currently only use a 9 hour chunk of data and its set up at the moment to download the data from the current time to 9 hours in advance
[20:24] <fergusnoble> im half way through changing the code to be able to handle any time or location
[20:25] <RocketBoy> fergusnoble:Ah oK np - I'll give it a test when you have finished
[20:25] <fergusnoble> not sure about the differences with wyoming, we did some tests in the summer comparing wyoming with our predictor and an actual flight and think the flight was closer to ours, but that may just be because of the difference in ascent rate
[20:26] <fergusnoble> how much difference is there when the two are run with the same ascent rates?
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[20:27] <jcoxon> evening
[20:27] <RocketBoy> fergusnoble:well if my calculates on the rates are right lots - about double the flight distance
[20:28] <fergusnoble> oh really, thats worrying
[20:28] <hallam> are you measuring up to burst point, or the whole flight?
[20:28] <RocketBoy> the full flight
[20:29] <RocketBoy> I'll send the kmls
[20:29] <jcoxon> hey RocketBoy
[20:29] <fergusnoble> RocketBoy: im just trying it
[20:30] <fergusnoble> btw, what do people think about plotting the wind vectors as a feature, think its worthwhile?
[20:30] <hallam> IIRC wyoming assumes constant descent rate? or am I talking crap
[20:31] <fergusnoble> when its done properly you will be able to plot the wind vectors for various altitudes
[20:32] <RocketBoy> hallam: no I don't think so - I spent some time trying to back work out the rate they used - came out to 4.9m/sec IIR
[20:33] <hallam> is that the sea-level descent rate then, and they model it properly for the rest of descent?
[20:33] <RocketBoy> yep sea level decent rate
[20:33] <RocketBoy> descent
[20:34] <hallam> ok
[20:35] <hallam> back in a bit
[20:35] Nick change: hallam -> hallam|food
[20:37] <fergusnoble> RocketBoy: just ran one and although the landing points are quite far away from each other, the profiles look similar
[20:37] <fergusnoble> looks like a difference in ascent rate
[20:37] <RocketBoy> fergusnoble: if it helps I ran a sim for midnight tonight from Churchill - 30,000m burst 4.5m ascent rate 4.9m/sec (low altitude) decent rate
[20:37] <fergusnoble> ok
[20:39] <RocketBoy> yeah the profiles looked the same - just the wyoming one was streatched out to the east
[20:48] <fergusnoble> ok, got it, thats a big difference
[20:50] <natrium42> RocketBoy: btw, something is wrong with your ascent rate number in the wiki
[20:51] <natrium42> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/general:balloon_trajectory_forecasts?s=wyoming
[20:51] <natrium42> 270m/min is correct?
[20:51] <natrium42> oh
[20:51] <natrium42> i think you have fixed it, it was s before
[20:51] <natrium42> :)
[20:54] <RocketBoy> yeah - I fixed it today when I was checking what i had worked out wyoming to be
[20:54] <fergusnoble> how did you work out what wyoming was?
[20:55] <fergusnoble> does it tell you the burst time?
[21:01] <rjharrison> jcoxon did the audio cable come through?
[21:02] Nick change: hallam|food -> hallam
[21:04] <RocketBoy> 169.4 . 169.475 MHz
[21:04] <RocketBoy> 500mW e.r.p.
[21:04] <RocketBoy> . 50kHz
[21:04] <RocketBoy> oops
[21:04] <natrium42> HF plz
[21:04] <natrium42> :D
[21:05] <RocketBoy> fergusnoble: I think you get the burst and landing times - from which you can get a good estimate of the rates - I'll check what I did
[21:06] <fergusnoble> ok, i just found the times through asking wyoming for a list rather than a kml
[21:07] <fergusnoble> does our predictor seem slow at the moment?
[21:07] <jcoxon> rjharrison, yeah
[21:08] <rjharrison> sorry about the tape forgot to put the outside bit on and had to slice it
[21:08] <jcoxon> no worries
[21:09] <jcoxon> Dr Coxon amused my girlfriend
[21:09] <jcoxon> considering i'm not yet
[21:09] <rjharrison> It looked better on the internal post
[21:09] <hallam> who is this Dr Coxon and why is he after your girlfriend?\
[21:09] <rjharrison> We send stuff to inventors all the time
[21:10] <fergusnoble> RocketBoy: i guess there is only one way to find out which is correct
[21:10] <fergusnoble> RocketBoy: have to fly a balloon and compare :)
[21:11] <natrium42> hehe
[21:11] <natrium42> do it for the lulz
[21:13] <RocketBoy> fergusnoble: yep
[21:14] <fergusnoble> it looks like we are predicting much lower winds at high altitude
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[21:31] <RocketBoy> fergusnoble: I think it must have be rocketboy finger trouble - I ran the CUSF one again and I got a differenet (and similar to wyoming) result
[21:31] <fergusnoble> hmm, well it was doing the same for me
[21:32] <hallam> maybe they were running on different sets of model data?
[21:33] <RocketBoy> yeah - i was reasonably sure I did it correctly the previous time
[21:36] <hallam> http://nearspaceventures.com/w3Baltrak/readyget.pl is this any good?
[21:36] <RocketBoy> has a new dat set come in in the last couple of hours
[21:39] <fergusnoble> nope, just checked
[21:39] <fergusnoble> well.. it redownloaded the same dataset
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[21:40] <Laurenceb> hello
[21:41] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:sqrt_density_lookup_table_calculator_for_fast_drag_coefficient_calculations
[21:41] <Laurenceb> ^ I finally got sensible results with badger data
[21:46] <RocketBoy> hallam:no It doesn't seem to have the UK wx stations in it
[21:46] <Xenion> Good Night / Gute Nacht :-) sleep -well
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[21:54] <Laurenceb> hallam: have you heard of the polywell?
[21:55] <hallam> yes
[21:55] <hallam> sounds interesting, hope it works, am not holding my breath
[21:55] <Laurenceb> it certainly works
[21:56] <Laurenceb> but if it works as described or not...
[21:56] <Laurenceb> theres quite a lot of work going into simulations
[21:56] <Laurenceb> theres a few projects on sourceforge
[21:57] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about DIY weather forcasting.
[21:57] <hallam> it works in terms of producing significant numbers of neutrons, in repeated well-designed trials? that's news to me
[21:57] <Laurenceb> hallam: theres been a few tests
[21:57] <hallam> I thought it had only really done it once in a pulsed test a few years back
[21:58] <Laurenceb> no
[21:58] <hallam> but I haven't read much about it in the last 12 months
[21:58] <Laurenceb> that was a destructive test
[21:58] <Laurenceb> to see what peak neutron output they got before they blew it
[21:59] <Laurenceb> they got about 10^9/s for a few hundered uS
[21:59] <Laurenceb> but the plan is to use B H fusion
[22:00] <Laurenceb> giving Mev alphas that generate power directly
[22:00] <hallam> Laurenceb, was that Bussard's team when they still had navy funding, or since then?
[22:00] <Laurenceb> since I think
[22:00] <hallam> IIRC they were claiming rates like that for a short duration of time, but when you add up all the detector inefficiencies, they actually only counted 5 neutrons or something like that
[22:00] <Laurenceb> theres a 7th iteration prototype
[22:01] <Laurenceb> yeah I think that was the 5th or something
[22:01] <hallam> ok
[22:01] <hallam> maybe I'll read up on it a little more
[22:01] <Laurenceb> yeah its interesting
[22:01] <rjharrison> hallam: Initial tests on resistor cut down have been dissapointing will move to 5ohm rather than 10ohm at 9v
[22:01] <Laurenceb> but it looks like people are trying to get good simulations so they can look at where to go with the design
[22:02] <Laurenceb> rjharrison: 5 to 6V over 10 ohm 1/8 watt
[22:02] <Laurenceb> works fine
[22:02] <Laurenceb> you can go up to ~10V before it burns out in <10 seconds
[22:03] <hallam> Laurenceb, have you done any tests with 1/2W resistors? I'd like to use the bigger melting area
[22:04] <Laurenceb> hallam: I think the biggest problem people can see is alphas hitting the magnet rings giving debry that gets stuck in the center of the reactor
[22:04] <Laurenceb> and "poisons" it
[22:04] <Laurenceb> so you have to shutdown and re-evacuate after only a short runtime
[22:04] <hallam> short = seconds?
[22:04] <Laurenceb> not sure
[22:05] <Laurenceb> the problem only becomes significant when you move to MW reactors
[22:05] <Laurenceb> tokomacs dont have the same problem as they give of neutrons
[22:06] <Laurenceb> but the advantage of course is that theres no neutron damage to the structure
[22:06] <hallam> the idea of slowing down alphas to recover electrical energy directly is very pretty
[22:06] <Laurenceb> alpha damage is less severe
[22:06] <Laurenceb> yeah, but it ends up around 50% efficiency with simple designs
[22:07] <Laurenceb> people are working on designs to try and seperate the different energy alphas
[22:07] <hallam> right, that has to be so much better than capturing neutrons in lithium to boil steam etc etc
[22:07] <hallam> though getting rid of the other 50% might be tough
[22:07] <Laurenceb> yeah
[22:09] <Laurenceb> I havent tried 1/2W
[22:10] <hallam> was using about 5R 1/4W with 6V yesterday, worked fine
[22:10] <hallam> doesn't smell too great
[22:13] <Laurenceb> insulation stripped off solid core wire works well
[22:13] <hallam> for what?
[22:13] <Laurenceb> around the resistor
[22:14] <hallam> to electrically insulate it, or as something to burn through?
[22:14] <Laurenceb> to burn though
[22:14] <hallam> ok
[22:15] <hallam> we were using a cable tie wrapped around a round piece of wood, with the resistor tightly pinched between the tie and the wood
[22:15] <hallam> holds everything nice and sturdily during all the shaking of ascent
[22:17] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:mihab:p6290015.jpg?w=600&h=&cache=cache
[22:17] <hallam> looks reasonable
[22:17] <hallam> I just wanted to make the resistor not load-bearing
[22:19] <Laurenceb> that will take ~ 20N
[22:21] <rjharrison> Im going to try a 1R .25 and .125
[22:21] <Laurenceb> doesnt work
[22:21] <hallam> that'll die pretty quick unless you use a low voltage
[22:22] <Laurenceb> I tried - it burns out in ms
[22:22] <rjharrison> ok]
[22:22] <rjharrison> cool
[22:22] <Laurenceb> its just 'poof'
[22:22] <hallam> laurenceb, our payloads often weigh more than 20N, and dynamic loads will be at least twice that
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> resistors that specify 350C operating temperature are readily available
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> which is nice.
[22:22] <Laurenceb> bbl
[22:22] <hallam> night all
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> night
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[22:33] <rjharrison> my payload cutdown test system
[22:33] <rjharrison> http://www.robertharrison.org/images/cutdown/
[22:34] <rjharrison> hopefully that make sense
[22:35] <rjharrison> you may have to refresh for the 3rd pic
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[22:46] <jcoxon> night all
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[22:55] <Laurenceb> I found cable ties hard to melt
[22:56] <Laurenceb> nylon has a high melting point
[23:01] <natrium42> hmm, and it can slide off
[23:01] <natrium42> or am i missing something?
[23:02] <Laurenceb> yeah, what I was thinking
[23:03] <natrium42> imo for light payloads (<2kg) you can just hang nylon rope on a nichrome wire
[23:03] <natrium42> simple and safe
[23:04] <Laurenceb> I've always used resistors
[23:05] <natrium42> sure, that works too
[23:05] <Laurenceb> lower current
[23:10] <Laurenceb> hmm i'm worried the cable tie will be too rigid to melt
[23:11] <Laurenceb> it has to remain in contact with the resistor
[23:14] <Laurenceb> I was worried about the insulation becoming brittle with the resistor cutter so I've added a small lengh of tube epoxied to the stripboard and guiding the line to the balloon
[23:15] <Laurenceb> the knot joining the insulation to the nylon line is inside, so it acts as stress relief on the insulation
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[23:39] <natrium42> edmoore!!11!ln(e)
[23:41] <edmoore> natrium42: yo
[23:41] <Laurenceb> hi ed
[23:41] <natrium42> what's the news?
[23:41] <Laurenceb> I like turtles
[23:41] <natrium42> any more teddynauts in training?
[23:42] <natrium42> turtlenauts/
[23:42] <natrium42> ?
[23:44] <fergusnoble> edmoore: its good to see you online
[23:44] <fergusnoble> really need that link for the osx crossworks
[23:44] <fergusnoble> really really really
[23:44] <fergusnoble> or just the dmg
[23:45] <edmoore> hi
[23:45] <edmoore> erm
[23:46] <edmoore> i think you had it as recently as me
[23:46] <edmoore> what itch do you need to scratch ooi?
[23:46] <fergusnoble> but i reinstalled osx since then
[23:46] <fergusnoble> want to do some badger coding so tried to install the windows version
[23:46] <fergusnoble> but getting nowhere as i dont have a key
[23:47] <fergusnoble> getting pissed off with it
[23:47] <edmoore> I can give you a key
[23:47] <edmoore> if you can wait for a reply
[23:48] <edmoore> i'm hunting for that link though now
[23:48] <edmoore> ah just saw in the svn rss
[23:48] <edmoore> that's a nice thing
[23:48] <fergusnoble> yeah
[23:49] <fergusnoble> cba to wait for a reply, could have requested myself
[23:49] <edmoore> present for you in PM
[23:49] <fergusnoble> and i really dont want the windows version
[23:49] <fergusnoble> it sucks
[23:49] <edmoore> see above!
[23:50] <fergusnoble> like i cant see the names of the files in the project explorer
[23:50] <fergusnoble> awesome, thanks so much
[23:50] <fergusnoble> hows it all going? how was your dad's bday?
[23:50] <edmoore> good thanks
[23:50] <edmoore> kind of crashed this afternoon
[23:51] <edmoore> got no sleep Saturday night, and not that much on Friday as you know!
[23:51] <fergusnoble> ive been laying up another rocket today
[23:51] <edmoore> yeah was going to ask how that went
[23:51] <fergusnoble> hehe, tmi ed
[23:51] <edmoore> that cool stuff
[23:51] <fergusnoble> seeing as you were at tess's
[23:51] <edmoore> you're the one providing TMI!
[23:52] <fergusnoble> :p
[23:52] <Laurenceb> TMI?
[23:52] <fergusnoble> too much information
[23:52] <Laurenceb> oh
[23:52] <Laurenceb> :P
[23:54] <edmoore> fergusnoble: so how was the layup?
[23:54] <edmoore> is it in the oven?
[23:54] <edmoore> on a low heat?
[23:54] <edmoore> to make a wonderful rockety bolognese?
[23:54] <fergusnoble> not turning the clave on till tomorrow
[23:54] <edmoore> ok
[23:54] <fergusnoble> but its in and ready to go
[23:54] <Laurenceb> why do you have to use a clave?
[23:54] <fergusnoble> layup went ok
[23:54] <fergusnoble> did a pressure test and the new bag is still holding beautifully
[23:54] <edmoore> Laurenceb: only the crumbliest, flakiest chocolate
[23:55] <Laurenceb> lol
[23:55] <edmoore> ferg will probably provide a more accurate technical reason
[23:55] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: we are using prepreg
[23:55] <edmoore> but basically, only the claviest, tastiest carbon fibre, flies like carbon never flew before
[23:55] <Laurenceb> pre inpregnated with resin?
[23:55] <edmoore> yup
[23:55] <Laurenceb> so it melts in the clave and joins the fibre
[23:55] <Laurenceb> ah cool
[23:55] <fergusnoble> need to heat it to 180C for several hours to cure
[23:55] <edmoore> imagine if you could get pre-preg women
[23:55] <Laurenceb> sounds quite easy to use
[23:56] <Laurenceb> edmoore: so... you have to cook them?
[23:56] <fergusnoble> its actually much nicer to handle than wet layup but has its tricynesses
[23:56] <Laurenceb> yeah, I've seen some video tutorials on wet layup
[23:57] <edmoore> imagine if you could wet lay women
[23:57] <fergusnoble> also you need to apply pressure to hold the fibre against the mould whilst its cooking
[23:57] <Laurenceb> oh god
[23:57] <Laurenceb> TMI
[23:57] <fergusnoble> were using about 7-8bar
[23:57] <fergusnoble> edmoore: enough
[23:57] <Laurenceb> so you apply the pressure down the middle
[23:57] <edmoore> with a giant latex condom
[23:58] <Laurenceb> which you stole
[23:58] <edmoore> imagine if you could get a giant latex condom to use on women
[23:58] <Laurenceb> I imagijne
[23:58] <edmoore> oh god, I'm going to bed
[23:58] <Laurenceb> lol
[23:58] <edmoore> I want hallam
[23:58] <Laurenceb> arg
[23:58] <edmoore> had a thought about balluting
[23:58] <Laurenceb> it gets worse
[23:59] <Laurenceb> edmoore: didnt know you were that way inclined
[23:59] <fergusnoble> edmoore: yes the ballute sounds like it might just work
[23:59] <edmoore> maybe no more techy stuff this eve
[23:59] <edmoore> fergusnoble: am not sure of that
[23:59] <fergusnoble> the techy stuff was ok, it was the non techy stuff that wasnt
[23:59] <Laurenceb> anyway... do you need an oxygen free atmosphere ?
[23:59] <fergusnoble> edmoore: well, i dont really know
[23:59] <edmoore> well, at least not what has actually been proposed. ballute is a bit of a vague catch-all. But we'll have hours of face to face techy discussion about this I guess
[23:59] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: nope
[00:00] --- Mon Jan 19 2009