highaltitude.log.20090116

[00:00] <Laurenceb> rjharrison is edmoore in time reversal
[00:00] <rjharrison> Came to uni in 92-95
[00:01] <rjharrison> probably
[00:01] <Laurenceb> what was comp sci like back then?
[00:01] <Laurenceb> what did you work on? unix clusters?
[00:01] <rjharrison> well we wound the rubber band and
[00:01] <gordonjcp> it were ahll in black an' white
[00:01] <rjharrison> Yep Sillicon Graphic indegos
[00:01] <gordonjcp> we 'ad to write ahr own compilers
[00:02] <gordonjcp> (fake yorkshire accent isn't worth the trouble on IRC)
[00:02] <rjharrison> Wasn't that bad the internet was just taking off
[00:02] <gordonjcp> pff, indigos
[00:02] <gordonjcp> you posh southern bastids
[00:02] <rjharrison> Leeds
[00:02] <rjharrison> Northen depending where you live
[00:02] <gordonjcp> Leeds is which direction from Aberdeen
[00:02] <gordonjcp> ?
[00:02] <rjharrison> hehe
[00:02] <gordonjcp> we had sun3
[00:02] <rjharrison> NSCA mosaic
[00:03] <rjharrison> that was the browser
[00:03] <gordonjcp> and we had some weirdass fujitsu thing running SCO Unix
[00:03] <rjharrison> There was hardly any porn :(
[00:03] <gordonjcp> back when it was SCOC and not SCOX
[00:03] <gordonjcp> rjharrison: well yeah
[00:03] <rjharrison> and no spam :)
[00:03] <gordonjcp> jpeg hadn't been invented then
[00:03] <gordonjcp> it was all .gif and .tif
[00:03] <Laurenceb> lol surely it was just ascii
[00:03] <gordonjcp> and .tif was huge and took forever at 14.4kbps
[00:03] <rjharrison> in the days of BBS's
[00:04] <rjharrison> when you waited 30mins for a porn picture to dload
[00:04] <rjharrison> and learnt how to make pipe bombs
[00:04] <fergusnoble> i got my first modem in 95 i think
[00:04] <fergusnoble> good times
[00:04] <rjharrison> yep I started on 300 baud
[00:04] <gordonjcp> BBSes rocked
[00:05] <rjharrison> and upped to 1200 then 4800
[00:05] <rjharrison> Them whre the days
[00:05] Action: SpeedEvil started on 1200
[00:05] <fergusnoble> when the internet was a list of phone numbers
[00:05] <gordonjcp> if I hadn't donated my PDP11 to a museum I'd have run a BBS on it
[00:05] <rjharrison> hey and when 56k came out
[00:05] <gordonjcp> I ran a BBS on my PC XT
[00:05] <edmoore> fergusnoble: back
[00:05] <edmoore> let's have modern talk
[00:05] <fergusnoble> edmoore: how was your date?
[00:05] <edmoore> can't deal with these all men talking about their ENIACs
[00:05] <edmoore> fergusnoble: ho. fine
[00:05] <rjharrison> Hey this was the foundation for you to play today :P
[00:05] <edmoore> how was formal?
[00:06] <fergusnoble> edmoore: formal didnt work out, went to a restaurant instead, was nice
[00:06] <edmoore> cool
[00:06] <fergusnoble> edmoore: ive installed a web svn viewer on our srcf space
[00:06] <edmoore> what time do you want to have an architecture roadmap bash think jymkana fete tomorrow?
[00:06] <rjharrison> Pah you tell the kids of to day this and they don't belive you
[00:06] <fergusnoble> www.cuspaceflight.co.uk/websvn
[00:06] <edmoore> fergusnoble: yeah I saw
[00:07] <edmoore> useful
[00:07] <fergusnoble> edmoore: did you see we got a submission for our competition too?
[00:07] <edmoore> yep
[00:07] <rjharrison> good readme
[00:07] <fergusnoble> edmoore: yeah its neat, got syntax highlighting and everything when yo open a c file
[00:08] <edmoore> any of them worth their salt do now. not like the olden days. we're lucky
[00:08] <edmoore> it's not loading for me though currently
[00:08] <fergusnoble> working for me
[00:08] <edmoore> might be my branch of some router
[00:08] <rjharrison> right I like that svn stuff
[00:08] <rjharrison> I'm going to have a bit of that for icarus
[00:09] <natrium42> hola
[00:09] <rjharrison> hi natrium42
[00:09] <natrium42> any launches planned this weekend?
[00:09] <natrium42> :)
[00:09] <rjharrison> I'm going for the 7th feb
[00:09] <natrium42> okay
[00:09] <rjharrison> If the weather is good I could do this sunday
[00:09] <edmoore> i have some more stuff to add to EdsLibraryOfMegaFun, come to think of it
[00:09] <Laurenceb> hehe
[00:10] <Laurenceb> whats in there?
[00:10] <edmoore> where all your pcb footprint dreams come true
[00:10] <Laurenceb> ARM7?
[00:10] <edmoore> it's an eagle lib
[00:10] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:10] <edmoore> just some random crap we had to make for badger
[00:10] <Laurenceb> cool
[00:10] <natrium42> i still don't have a gps antenna for my launch :S
[00:10] <natrium42> the company is not responding to my order
[00:10] <Laurenceb> I'm going to try making some stuff in PCB
[00:11] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: your a sucker for pain arent you
[00:11] <fergusnoble> im all for open source but it looks terrible
[00:11] <edmoore> fergusnoble: did you catch my question a bit further up?
[00:11] <fergusnoble> no?
[00:11] <edmoore> about if you wanted to have a sesh tomorrow
[00:11] <edmoore> and if so what time
[00:11] <fergusnoble> oh yeah, would like to
[00:11] <Laurenceb> fergusnoble: erm compared to making parts in eagle
[00:11] <edmoore> i have one lecture 9-10
[00:11] <fergusnoble> finish lectures at 1
[00:11] <edmoore> ok
[00:11] <rjharrison> natrium42 what is you gps
[00:12] <rjharrison> your
[00:12] <natrium42> ublox 4s
[00:12] <edmoore> Is there anything I can get on with that you don't mind not being there for? Extreme seems to work for us, am accutely aware
[00:12] <fergusnoble> have a gap 10-11 when ill be going into the dept to sort out the silicone bag
[00:12] <fergusnoble> coming out of th mould tomorrow
[00:12] <edmoore> i'll be in there then too
[00:12] <rjharrison> I have an SMA IQ antenna you can have if that's any good
[00:12] <natrium42> it has SMA connector, but all my GPS antennas use different connectors
[00:12] <edmoore> I could knock up a pcb for this freq agile dds
[00:12] <Laurenceb> fergusnoble: from what I can gather PCB takes fairly simple footprint descriptions in ascii
[00:12] <rjharrison> 3.3v
[00:12] <fergusnoble> edmoore: dds would be good, or work on badger 2
[00:12] <edmoore> wouldn't mind getting a prototype just to start playing with
[00:13] <natrium42> rjharrison: thanks for the offer, but shipping from UK would take too long
[00:13] <edmoore> if you don't mind me starting on badger2, i will
[00:13] <fergusnoble> edmoore: want to try the repeater tonight?
[00:13] <natrium42> i am kinda anxious to launch the next week
[00:13] <fergusnoble> edmoore: yeah go ahead
[00:13] <Laurenceb> edmoore: will a DDS be ok to use with ofcom?
[00:13] <rjharrison> ooh
[00:13] <rjharrison> Well cool
[00:13] <edmoore> Laurenceb: what they don't know....
[00:13] <Laurenceb> :P
[00:13] <fergusnoble> natrium42: if you need to use the predictor at any point let me know andd ill add the gribs for your launch location
[00:13] <rjharrison> Humm do you have anyone tracking from home?
[00:13] <edmoore> it'll get plenty of ground testing first
[00:14] <fergusnoble> edmoore: what freq range will the dds be for?
[00:14] <edmoore> the one chip should be able to give us freq agility over all the amateur bands
[00:14] <edmoore> HF,VHF,UHF
[00:14] <natrium42> fergusnoble: aah, cool
[00:14] <fergusnoble> oh sweet
[00:14] <Laurenceb> yeah it looks very cool, but I would be a bit worried if I was going to sell it, one reason why I'm going for a USB receiver - at least to start off with
[00:14] <natrium42> fergusnoble: is it possible to predict in-flight?
[00:14] <natrium42> i.e. the landing location?
[00:14] <fergusnoble> natrium42: yeah, we have done that the last two launches
[00:15] <rjharrison> with some sucess too
[00:15] <edmoore> natrium42 / fergusnoble Rob says he was going to improve that bit this evening
[00:15] <edmoore> just fyi
[00:15] <edmoore> you've probs seen him since me anyway
[00:15] <fergusnoble> natrium42: tomorrow im going to neaten up the code, than can give you the source
[00:15] <edmoore> so we might want to grab the even-more-latest version of rob's predictor tomorrow
[00:15] <fergusnoble> edmoore: yeah, we chatted about it
[00:15] <Laurenceb> edmoore: do you know if the in flight prediction will use recorded windspeed anywhere?
[00:15] <edmoore> yes - for anything it hasn't done yet
[00:16] <edmoore> oh sorry
[00:16] <edmoore> no
[00:16] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: we tried that and it turned out to work not so well as the raw model
[00:16] <edmoore> i read the opposite question
[00:16] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: so we removed it
[00:16] <edmoore> just superimpose the prediction on where it happens to be now
[00:16] <Laurenceb> interesting
[00:16] <Laurenceb> I may alter the mini rogallo code then
[00:16] <edmoore> fergusnoble: one of the places it can probs be neatened up, I thought, is loosing the 'in flight' bit
[00:16] <natrium42> fergusnoble: that would be awesome, thanks!
[00:17] <Laurenceb> you could derive the drag coefficient in flight
[00:17] <edmoore> just running the predictor from the current location, and maybe deriving some class to deal with descent rates
[00:17] <fergusnoble> edmoore: yeah, plan to make it take commandline args to tell it what yo want to do
[00:17] <edmoore> I thought it was already?
[00:17] <rjharrison> And a bout on how to calc. the drag factor
[00:18] <fergusnoble> edmoore: its still quite rigid, want it so yo can specify various things like input and output files, weather to read in a list of the flight so far etc
[00:18] <rjharrison> lanch assume 1 hr from now
[00:18] <rjharrison> launch
[00:19] <edmoore> you're launching in one hour?
[00:19] <Laurenceb> lol
[00:19] <rjharrison> right I'm out of here
[00:19] <natrium42> OMG
[00:19] <natrium42> :D
[00:19] <Laurenceb> noo dont launch yourself
[00:19] <rjharrison> nights all
[00:19] <Laurenceb> cya
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[00:20] <fergusnoble> edmoore: the main thing i want to add is so that gribs are saved in filenames which specify when and where they are for and get it to read in them as needed, rahter than just reading in whatever 9 hour block is already downloaded
[00:20] <Laurenceb> fergus: you need a cache
[00:20] <fergusnoble> edmoore: and then to automatically download chnks it cant find
[00:20] <edmoore> sure, that makes a lot of sense
[00:20] <Laurenceb> have a logfile of the current cache
[00:20] <edmoore> would be good to just grab the latest as soon as they are published
[00:20] <Laurenceb> and search that each time the user makes a request
[00:20] <fergusnoble> edmoore: yeah, thats quite hard for some reasons i can go into tomorrow
[00:21] <fergusnoble> i was thinking just to have a cron job which updates the commonly used areas, i.e. cambridge
[00:21] <edmoore> we should probably deal with transitions cases too
[00:21] <fergusnoble> and others are grabbed as needed
[00:21] <Laurenceb> yeah, if the record is too old, get a new one in the cache
[00:21] <Laurenceb> also delete old stuff in the cache
[00:21] <edmoore> like you're running a predictor on a long duration flight, and suddenly at time t during the flight the new 3-hourly predictions are published
[00:21] <fergusnoble> if natrium42 needs canada we can add that to the updates too, and likewise scotland for speedevil
[00:22] <fergusnoble> edmoore: it should be able to deal with that already
[00:22] <edmoore> so it just asks what happens to be available to it and something else makes sure it has the latest available?
[00:23] <fergusnoble> yeah
[00:23] <Laurenceb> http://pastebin.com/me78fdea
[00:23] <Laurenceb> ^ thats some code for inflight drag coefficient calculation
[00:24] <Laurenceb> its optimised for AVR, so it uses a lookup table
[00:26] <Laurenceb> http://pastebin.com/d51dd58de <-- works for most stuff
[00:27] <Laurenceb> on arm youd want to use an atmospheric density function
[00:27] <fergusnoble> looks cool
[00:28] <Laurenceb> what the .... http://pastebin.com/m16c1a35e
[00:28] <Laurenceb> pastebin is a funny place
[00:29] <natrium42> fergusnoble: grib grabber is not in the svn yet?
[00:29] <natrium42> i wanted to take a look at it
[00:29] <fergusnoble> natrium42: no, i stupidly didnt copy it off my eee with the broken screen
[00:30] <fergusnoble> i only have an external display when im in the department
[00:30] <fergusnoble> hmm.. ill try and boot it up and see if it connects tothe wifi so i can shell in :)
[00:31] <natrium42> hehe
[00:32] <natrium42> fergusnoble: i wanted to ask you what you think about flash tracker as opposed to gmaps?
[00:32] <natrium42> the problem is that we wouldn't be able to use the maps from google, which are the most detailed
[00:32] <fergusnoble> well... its possible to rip gmaps data
[00:33] <fergusnoble> although you didnt hear that from me ;)
[00:33] <edmoore> yes he did
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[00:33] <Laurenceb> but anyone can work that one out
[00:33] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: im joking
[00:34] <natrium42> fergusnoble: yeah, one flash component that i used did that
[00:34] <natrium42> but they removed it >:/
[00:34] <natrium42> now they only use the open source maps
[00:34] <fergusnoble> natrium42: but im not sure, what advantage would flash give?
[00:34] <natrium42> it might be smoother on slower computers
[00:34] <natrium42> (well, the problem with the current tracker are too many markers, actually)
[00:35] <fergusnoble> natrium42: could you make the track just a line?
[00:36] <fergusnoble> and maybe only put markers in various places
[00:36] <natrium42> yeah, that would remove the problem
[00:36] <fergusnoble> like the predictor does atm
[00:36] <natrium42> right now i have a manager for markers
[00:36] <natrium42> that reduces their number when you zoom out
[00:36] <natrium42> but i don't think it's helping much
[00:37] <fergusnoble> if it were me i would be tempted to ditch all of the markers and go with just the line
[00:37] <edmoore> fergusnoble: gameboy
[00:37] <fergusnoble> gameboy?
[00:37] <edmoore> sorry fergusnoble
[00:37] <edmoore> i am talking to tess on phone about gameboy
[00:37] <edmoore> oh god
[00:37] <natrium42> fergusnoble: maybe you are right
[00:37] <edmoore> fergusnoble: callsign
[00:38] <natrium42> well, maybe i could add a handler to show marker closest to the mouse
[00:38] <natrium42> that should really help it while keeping functionality where you can check what the point is
[00:38] <fergusnoble> edmoore: forgot my username for the ofcom website, because i suck
[00:39] <fergusnoble> edmoore: will phone them, but its not urgent
[00:39] <Laurenceb> http://www.b3tards.com/u/57a418c694bc7c6296b3/speed_camera.jpg
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[00:39] <natrium42> lool
[00:39] <fergusnoble> natrium42: good point, that is useful
[00:39] <fergusnoble> natrium42: could you add a handler that just pops up whatever coords you click on?
[00:40] <natrium42> plus perhaps i should always show markers where pictures were taken (live picture downlink)
[00:40] <fergusnoble> i dont know much about the gmaps api, dont know whats possible
[00:40] <natrium42> yeah, it's possible
[00:40] <fergusnoble> yeah, thats true, so it can show them in the bubble
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[00:47] <fergusnoble> natrium42: so there will be far fewer pictures than points, so maybe thats an ok solution
[00:47] <fergusnoble> just to have markers for the pictures?
[00:48] <fergusnoble> oh sweet, shelled into the eee :)
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[00:53] <edmoore> fergusnoble: ok, finished talking to tess
[00:53] <edmoore> so
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[00:53] <edmoore> i'll be in eng dept 10 till whenever tomorrow
[00:53] <edmoore> see you as and when
[00:53] <fergusnoble> edmoore: im reading the submission we got for the comp
[00:53] <fergusnoble> looks good!
[00:53] <edmoore> though actually....
[00:53] <edmoore> oh it's a blooy doc file isn't it
[00:53] <edmoore> for the love of god
[00:53] <fergusnoble> yeah
[00:53] <fergusnoble> want me to pdf it for you?
[00:54] <edmoore> no it's fine
[00:54] <edmoore> i want them to pdf it
[00:54] <edmoore> I want them to realise they're not sending a working document to us for editing and so it shouldn't be a doc file
[00:54] <edmoore> it's not a difficult concept. bloody microsoft
[00:54] <edmoore> and breathe
[00:54] <fergusnoble> hehe
[00:55] <fergusnoble> come on, its something even profs seems to struggle with
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[00:56] <edmoore> not mine
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[00:56] <edmoore> I don't think they realise that they're just strapped onto the side of us
[00:56] <edmoore> they're talking about sizing parachutes and cutdowns
[00:56] <fergusnoble> no, but still, its an interesting thing to measure
[00:57] <edmoore> I like the gas concentrations bit
[00:57] <edmoore> that's neat stuff
[00:57] <fergusnoble> and looks well thought about
[00:57] <edmoore> if they could measure 03
[00:57] <edmoore> that would be cool
[00:57] <edmoore> can pin down the ozone layer
[00:58] <fergusnoble> i like the fact they didnt have any help from their teachers or parents
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[00:59] <edmoore> they're using the propellor too
[00:59] <fergusnoble> and they say one team member already has experience with the propeller
[00:59] <edmoore> it looks like fun
[00:59] <fergusnoble> looks like they might be able to pull it off too
[00:59] <akawaka> tell them to get some experience with latex
[00:59] <edmoore> yeah,they'll have a lot more processing power than badger on that thing, that's for sure
[00:59] <fergusnoble> hehe yeah
[01:00] <edmoore> we'll have to put an xmos on it :)
[01:00] <fergusnoble> i would have liked to have seen them spec the sensors they plan to use
[01:00] <fergusnoble> they spec'd everything but the most important part
[01:00] <edmoore> agreed - we'd have to get them to actually decide what gases they want to detect and how they plan to detect them
[01:00] <fergusnoble> well, looks like they have done a bit of resarch at least
[01:01] <fergusnoble> they say they want to do oxygen, co2 and methane
[01:01] <fergusnoble> and that the sensors either change resistance or have a frequency output
[01:02] <edmoore> 8 bit ADCs won't give them a great deal
[01:02] <fergusnoble> no
[01:02] <edmoore> might be worth a gentle prod in the direction of a 10 bit or more one
[01:02] <fergusnoble> well, if we accept their proposal we can give them a few pointers
[01:02] <edmoore> there are loads that still play nicely on i2c
[01:02] <fergusnoble> like that we will handle flight support so they can concentrate on the experiment
[01:03] <edmoore> they look like they could do their own mission
[01:03] <fergusnoble> yeah
[01:03] <fergusnoble> its really good
[01:03] <fergusnoble> their cutdown design looks sane too
[01:03] <edmoore> yeah
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[01:04] <edmoore> good stuff
[01:04] <edmoore> kind of want to help them do their own mission really
[01:05] <edmoore> we could just provide radios and experience
[01:06] <edmoore> they're a 2-hour drive away
[01:06] <edmoore> but about 10 mins from hamradio.co.uk
[01:06] <edmoore> right, def bed
[01:06] <fergusnoble> hehe
[01:06] <edmoore> am dying here
[01:06] <fergusnoble> ok, night
[01:07] <fergusnoble> natrium42: commited the grib grabbing code
[01:07] <natrium42> k, cool
[01:07] <edmoore> natrium42: commited suicide
[01:07] <natrium42> noo
[01:09] <fergusnoble> natrium42: if you use the grib grabber to download some data you should be able to run the predictor locally yourself
[01:09] <fergusnoble> all it needs is a file called flight_so_far.csv
[01:10] <fergusnoble> with lines of the format timestamp,ticks,lat,lon,alt
[01:10] <fergusnoble> where timestamp is the unix timestamp for that point
[01:10] <Laurenceb> whats this cutdown design?
[01:11] <fergusnoble> and ticks is kinda arbitrary value in milliseconds since start of flight
[01:11] <fergusnoble> you can make up the ticks from the timestamp or something
[01:12] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: just a pin puller
[01:12] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: nothing new, just looks like they thought about how to go about making it
[01:12] <Laurenceb> I just count main loop cycles - its 1Hz
[01:12] <Laurenceb> pin? as in io pin?
[01:12] <fergusnoble> no, its a mechanical cutdown
[01:13] <Laurenceb> ok
[01:13] <fergusnoble> retracts a pin from a ring
[01:13] <Laurenceb> neat
[01:13] <Laurenceb> but the fewer parts the better imo
[01:15] <fergusnoble> yeah agreed
[01:18] <Laurenceb> hmm this is interesting
[01:18] <Laurenceb> I'm running my flight code in a benchtest with badger kml files
[01:18] <Laurenceb> the drag coefficient is very stable over the entire descent
[01:18] <fergusnoble> thats cool to know
[01:19] <Laurenceb> guess that means both the actual drag coefficent and the model are good
[01:19] <fergusnoble> yeah, i guess it mainly reflects on the atmospheric model
[01:19] <natrium42> fergusnoble: you guys should add an audio "BADGER" each time a radio message is received :D
[01:19] <Laurenceb> I'll plot some data in gnuplot after more coffee
[01:19] <natrium42> fergusnoble: imagine the atmosphere in the chase car
[01:19] <fergusnoble> natrium42: a sound clip from badger badger badger :)
[01:20] <natrium42> maybe poor data would result in audio "MUSHROOM" or "SNAKE" being played
[01:20] <fergusnoble> hehe
[01:20] <natrium42> exactly :D
[01:20] <fergusnoble> snake should be for burst detection
[01:20] <natrium42> lol
[01:23] <Laurenceb> we need this
[01:23] <fergusnoble> are you going to try and integrate dynamic landing prediction into your tracker?
[01:23] <Laurenceb> not too hard to arrange
[01:24] <natrium42> fergusnoble: may i?
[01:24] <fergusnoble> natrium42: of course
[01:25] <natrium42> ok, thanks
[01:25] <fergusnoble> would be awesome
[01:25] <fergusnoble> will help as much as i can
[01:25] <natrium42> i will put a credit of course
[01:25] <natrium42> i starting work on a portal kinda site
[01:25] <natrium42> we have many launches lately, so maybe a central place would be nice to have
[01:26] <fergusnoble> yeah, deffo
[01:26] <natrium42> to announce launches etc
[01:26] <fergusnoble> natrium42: hopefully over the next few days the prediction code should be made a lot more usable
[01:26] <natrium42> kk, got loads of stuff to do for the backend first anyway
[01:26] <fergusnoble> i.e. easier to integrate, like fewer random undocumented files that have to be present for it to run
[01:27] <fergusnoble> or strange parameters
[01:27] <fergusnoble> :)
[01:27] <edmoore> and re-written is asm
[01:27] <edmoore> in*
[01:27] <natrium42> haha
[01:27] <natrium42> x86 asm?
[01:27] <edmoore> yeah
[01:27] <edmoore> don't worry, we'll put comments
[01:28] <natrium42> nah, code is self explanatory :P
[01:28] <natrium42> comments are for sissies
[01:28] <edmoore> that is true
[01:28] <edmoore> mv a,b // move b into a
[01:28] <edmoore> d'oh
[01:28] <edmoore> right, bed
[01:28] <edmoore> this time for actual
[01:29] <natrium42> k, g'nite
[01:29] <edmoore> i've been saying this for 1h now and yet keep faffing
[01:29] <fergusnoble> night
[01:29] <natrium42> don't let the bed bugs bite
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[01:32] <Laurenceb> hmm food
[01:32] <Laurenceb> pity my pie exploded
[01:33] <Laurenceb> never get pukka pies from tescos - they explode
[01:33] <natrium42> whoa, that's some serious parsing
[01:34] <fergusnoble> for the grib? yeah, its a wierd format
[01:34] <fergusnoble> it might be neatened up using structs, didnt write that bit
[01:35] <fergusnoble> think lots of the fields are variable length though
[01:39] <Laurenceb> got it
[01:39] <Laurenceb> wow you can see changed in parachute geometery
[01:39] <Laurenceb> maybe lines tangling slightly
[01:40] <Laurenceb> just a sec I'll imagebin
[01:44] <Laurenceb> damn you gimp
[01:48] <Laurenceb> finally
[01:49] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/35921
[01:55] <Laurenceb> what do you think?
[01:55] <natrium42> what is this?
[01:56] <Laurenceb> scaled drag coefficient vs time
[01:56] <natrium42> fergusnoble: so the problem is detecting when the base date switches to a new one?
[01:57] <fergusnoble> yes
[01:57] <natrium42> it's not in the grib files themselves?
[01:57] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: your drag coeff is very small
[01:57] <natrium42> the base date?
[01:57] <fergusnoble> natrium42: yes, but you have to download and process them a bit to get it out
[01:58] <natrium42> ah
[01:58] <natrium42> i have one idea that might work
[01:58] <Laurenceb> fergusnoble: to save clock cycles I use to to convert from meters/s to radians on the earths surface
[01:58] <fergusnoble> natrium42: the other problem is caching the data whilst keeping it up to date
[01:58] <Laurenceb> so its multiplied by a very small factor
[01:58] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: ok, cool eans
[01:58] <fergusnoble> *beans
[01:59] <natrium42> fergusnoble: you can check if the new data is available by looking at http://nomad3.ncep.noaa.gov/pub/nomad1-raid1/gfs_master/
[01:59] <natrium42> if new day appears
[01:59] <natrium42> their rotator is probably based on that, no?
[02:00] <fergusnoble> i dont know, they have one file per day there but the data we are using is updated every 6 hours ish
[02:01] <fergusnoble> but your right, maybe the date can be found from somewhere else on that site
[02:01] <natrium42> hrm
[02:02] <fergusnoble> for the caching i was thinking of changing the code so it looks for the data under a filename derived from the coords and timestamp
[02:02] <fergusnoble> and when it cant find that file it downloads it
[02:03] <fergusnoble> a cron job runs periodically to make sure the commonly used chunks are always up to date and old chunks are discarded after a certain amount of time
[02:03] <natrium42> what if you select the variable which results in very little file just to poll the current base time?
[02:04] <fergusnoble> not sure, could try it i guess
[02:04] <natrium42> for example WEASD only gives 37.5KB
[02:04] <fergusnoble> the files are only about 50k as it is but the server is very slow
[02:04] <natrium42> ah
[02:05] <fergusnoble> probably deliberately limit bandwidth to stop people pulling huge aounts of data
[02:05] <fergusnoble> as the website itself is definately loading faster than 1kbs
[02:06] <natrium42> the whole globe is about 4MB, right?
[02:06] <natrium42> or did i not select all the right variables?
[02:06] <Laurenceb> hmm theres a bug somewhere... its not nearly as pretty
[02:09] Action: natrium42 checks source code again
[02:11] <fergusnoble> erm, the website seems to be saying they are 42mb
[02:11] <fergusnoble> oh, but thats for all the fields not just wind
[02:11] <natrium42> 12.3MB
[02:11] <natrium42> HDT, UGRD, VGRD (all the mb levels)
[02:12] <natrium42> so if you say it's updated each 6 hours, that's about 50MB per day
[02:12] <natrium42> not too bad
[02:13] <natrium42> well, that's only for one period actually...
[02:13] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/35922
[02:13] <Laurenceb> thats not too nice :-( but it is falling from 32Km
[02:14] <fergusnoble> natrium42: but you can ditch the old stuff once youve got the new
[02:14] <Laurenceb> I think those blips are the parachute
[02:15] <natrium42> right, i am just trying to see how much bandwidth it would use
[02:15] <Laurenceb> fergus cant you use the timestamp of the cached file to work out if a new one will have appeared?
[02:15] <fergusnoble> natrium42: maybe downloading the whole earth isnt such a crazy idea
[02:15] <natrium42> if you downloaded them all
[02:15] <natrium42> about 3.5GB per day
[02:16] <natrium42> or am i miscalculating something?
[02:18] <fergusnoble> all 48 hours of prediction each time?
[02:18] <natrium42> yes
[02:19] <natrium42> wait
[02:19] <fergusnoble> i make it just under 800mb
[02:19] <natrium42> gfs.tXXz.pgrb2fYY
[02:19] <natrium42> what does the first XX stand for?
[02:19] <fergusnoble> time that the model was run
[02:19] <Laurenceb> oh wow
[02:20] <fergusnoble> natrium42: http://nomads.ncep.noaa.gov/
[02:20] <natrium42> so you are only using model time 0?
[02:20] <fergusnoble> what about this - their high availibility server
[02:20] <natrium42> nvm, i see
[02:20] <natrium42> so my calculation was wrong then
[02:20] <fergusnoble> just got MUCH higher rate from it, and it looks to have a list of different runs of the model
[02:21] <fergusnoble> natrium42: not sure, i was only doing it quickly
[02:21] <fergusnoble> natrium42: you only get the data for one value of XX
[02:21] <natrium42> ooh, cool
[02:21] <natrium42> so precaching shouldn't be too bad, eh?
[02:21] <Laurenceb> http://imagebin.org/35923
[02:22] <fergusnoble> natrium42: corresponding to the most recent run of the model, i.e. if its 7pm you try XX=18
[02:22] <Laurenceb> thats drag coefficient v altitude
[02:22] <fergusnoble> and hope that that was 18:00 today, not yesterday
[02:22] <natrium42> fergusnoble: yep, gotcha
[02:22] <natrium42> no reason to use older model for that
[02:22] <natrium42> that's where i made the mistake
[02:23] <fergusnoble> the current grib grabber gets the most recent value of XX and then if that turns out to be yesterdays then it tries the next one back
[02:23] <fergusnoble> so eventually it should get to the most recent run from the current day
[02:24] <fergusnoble> natrium42: if you go onto the 0.5 degree GFS "grib filter" on the high availibility server you get a list of runs
[02:25] <fergusnoble> but when you click on one it just passes a get string to a perl script
[02:25] <fergusnoble> maybe we could use that?
[02:26] <natrium42> yeah, you are right
[02:26] <natrium42> so when a new folder appears you switch to it
[02:26] <Laurenceb> fergusnoble: I think you can see from theat graph why the drag coefficient is off - the atmospheric model is wrong - so it should be possible to correct it using the GRIB file :P
[02:27] <natrium42> they don't use a rotating scheme on the high availability server it looks like
[02:27] <fergusnoble> natrium42: if you change the number passed to one in the future it gives an error
[02:27] <fergusnoble> Laurenceb: cool, sounds good
[02:27] <natrium42> so you could check that way?
[02:27] <Laurenceb> those glitches arent the chute
[02:28] <Laurenceb> its where the model switches to low stratospheric
[02:29] <Laurenceb> whats the vertical pressure resolution of a GRIB file?
[02:30] <fergusnoble> natrium42: actually it looks even better than that, when you come to download the data file, the url has one of those timestamps in it
[02:30] <fergusnoble> if its in the future you get an error again
[02:30] <natrium42> :)
[02:30] <natrium42> so you can always download the right file
[02:30] <fergusnoble> ok, now to check if our code works with those grib files
[02:30] <fergusnoble> but first coffee
[02:31] <natrium42> :D
[02:31] <natrium42> i just had some
[02:31] <Laurenceb> lol
[02:32] <Laurenceb> I'm thinking about creating a vertical pressure profile from knowledge of temperature and pressure from the GRIB file
[02:33] <Laurenceb> you need to combine a physics model of equilibrium with the GRIB....
[02:33] <fergusnoble> natrium42: getting like 500kbs down from that server, beats the 1-2 from the other one :)
[02:33] <natrium42> yay
[02:34] <fergusnoble> so think we should just download the entire earth?
[02:34] <natrium42> well, if you know the starting location, then you don't need to
[02:35] <fergusnoble> i guess at that kind of speed its not too much hassle to just download the file when its needed
[02:35] <natrium42> maybe for a general tool like wyomings, entire earth would be good
[02:35] <natrium42> yeah
[02:35] <natrium42> file sizes are not too bad
[02:35] <natrium42> as long as you have the bandwidth :)
[02:35] <fergusnoble> maybe keep cambridge and a few other locations up to date via cron
[02:37] <fergusnoble> maybe i should sleep actually, got lectures at 9am
[02:37] <natrium42> sounds like a good idea
[02:37] <natrium42> g'nite
[02:37] <fergusnoble> can ask the guy who worked out the grib stuff the first time round about this tomorrow
[02:38] <fergusnoble> maybe there was a reason he didnt do it like this the first time round
[02:38] <natrium42> kk
[02:38] <fergusnoble> night
[02:57] <Laurenceb> hmm those anomalies are in the wrong places
[02:58] <Laurenceb> to be a problem with the lower stratospheric model
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[08:22] <rharrison> morning all
[08:22] <rharrison> fergusnoble: The landing calculator is great
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[09:11] <jcoxon> morning
[09:19] <jcoxon> rharrison, thanks for the pdf
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[10:04] <M0TEK> s'up y'all
[10:05] <jcoxon> hey M0TEK
[10:38] Action: jcoxon is organising his elective
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[10:41] <jcoxon> morning G8KHW
[10:42] <G8KHW> Hey -on my iPhone at the mp so bit slow
[10:42] <jcoxon> np
[10:42] <jcoxon> you've been popping in and out a lot!
[10:43] <G8KHW> Yeah that's the 3 g going up and down
[10:44] <jcoxon> :-)
[10:44] <jcoxon> have you seen the new cusf forecaster?
[10:44] <jcoxon> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/pred/index.php
[10:44] <G8KHW> Nope
[10:45] <jcoxon> yeah fergusnoble implmented their prediction software onto a site
[10:45] <jcoxon> its a lot quicker then wyoming and also you can vary ascent rate etc
[10:45] <G8KHW> An
[10:45] <G8KHW> Looks good
[10:46] <G8KHW> What is the DES
[10:46] <G8KHW> Drag factor
[10:46] <jcoxon> the drag factor for the model?
[10:47] <G8KHW> Yep
[10:47] <jcoxon> you can vary it
[10:47] <jcoxon> vary both ascent rate in m/s, drag factor, burst height
[10:48] <G8KHW> Yes but what is it chute cd area weight
[10:48] <jcoxon> oh good point
[10:48] <jcoxon> i'm not sure
[10:49] <G8KHW> I guess it's just a fudge factor
[10:49] <G8KHW> Learnt by experiance
[10:50] <jcoxon> G8KHW, got myself a ft-817
[10:50] <G8KHW> I'll ask mr n
[10:50] <jcoxon> i think the code is in the svn so you could take a look if you had time
[10:51] <M0TEK> G8KHW: nope
[10:51] <G8KHW> Yeah I saw -thinking everyone is getting hf gear
[10:51] <M0TEK> it's CdS, iirc
[10:51] <M0TEK> it's rob's parameter
[10:51] <M0TEK> the drag factor
[10:52] <jcoxon> G8KHW, preparation for trans flights
[10:52] <M0TEK> Am going to add my code to it which lets you calc the drag factors for different parachute types
[10:52] <jcoxon> i listened in to the 2m repeaters in london - not very nice places, lots of abuse etc
[10:52] <M0TEK> we'll just basically make web wrappers for any useful programs we have!
[10:53] <G8KHW> Things haven't changed much then
[10:53] <jcoxon> M0TEK, yeah that'll make life easier
[10:53] <jcoxon> G8KHW, seems so, the shutdown my nearest repeater apparently as it was so bad
[10:53] <jcoxon> they*
[10:54] <G8KHW> :(
[10:55] <jcoxon> right i better make use of my day off
[10:55] <G8KHW> Agg I'm off to use a real keyboad
[10:56] <jcoxon> haha
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[11:33] <rharrison> moring motek
[11:36] <rharrison> natrium42: You still up for a launch at the w/e
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[11:49] <M0TEK> rharrison: morning
[11:52] <M0TEK> just made the world's biggest condom
[11:53] <jcoxon> M0TEK, out of mylar?
[11:54] <M0TEK> jcoxon: latex
[11:54] <M0TEK> it's for the roc ket
[11:54] <M0TEK> silicone even, not latex
[11:54] <jcoxon> wow
[11:54] <M0TEK> it's a giant thick rocket shaped balloon that you inflate inside the rocket mould
[11:54] <M0TEK> and it presses the carbon fibre up against the mould
[11:55] <M0TEK> it's like flubber
[11:55] <jcoxon> oh right
[11:55] <jcoxon> yeah that makes sense
[11:56] <jcoxon> i'm buying props right now
[11:57] <jcoxon> got to love ebay for all the junk you can find
[11:57] <jcoxon> (am props manager for a musical in 2 weeks)
[11:57] <jcoxon> just hired a machine gun that goes in a violin case
[11:57] <jcoxon> very cool
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[12:13] <rharrison> hi
[12:14] <rharrison> jcoxon I have put you cable in the post
[12:14] <rharrison> did you get the email
[12:14] <jcoxon> oh thanks
[12:14] <jcoxon> yeah
[12:14] <rharrison> It gives a bit more info around the gp and is why I use it for hab
[12:15] <jcoxon> yeah
[12:15] <rharrison> do you don any acting
[12:15] <rharrison> or are you on the other side
[12:15] <jcoxon> no i'm a backstage person
[12:15] <rharrison> hehe
[12:15] <jcoxon> got an AS level in set design for theatre
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[12:16] <rharrison> There used to be a bit of rivalry beteen the BS and the lovies at UNi
[12:16] <jcoxon> hehe
[12:16] <jcoxon> as everyone is a medic we are a little bit more united
[12:16] <rharrison> How big is the condom?
[12:17] <rharrison> Yep the medics at Leeds used to do their own thing too
[12:17] <rharrison> Put on little performances
[12:17] <rharrison> Nay pics of the latex monster
[12:17] <jcoxon> i reckon the medic productions are better then the normal student productions
[12:18] <rharrison> Bias?
[12:18] <jcoxon> i've helped with both
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[14:34] <Laurenceb> hi edmoore
[14:34] <edmoore> hi Laurenceb
[14:37] <Laurenceb> edmoore: http://imagebin.org/35923
[14:37] <Laurenceb> thats scaled drag coefficient v altitude
[14:37] <Laurenceb> for the first badger launch
[14:39] <edmoore> ok cool
[14:39] <Laurenceb> I'm a bit annoyed it changes so much
[14:39] <edmoore> 15km and 27km - interesting
[14:39] <Laurenceb> I think part of the problem may be that the model doesnt know the temperature
[14:40] <Laurenceb> but there may be a bug somewhere... I'll have a loiok at the code later
[14:40] <edmoore> sure, yes
[14:40] <edmoore> that makes sense
[14:41] <Laurenceb> well it makes sense, but I wouldnt haver expected the effect to be so large
[14:41] <Laurenceb> I guess ideally youd use GRIB data to create a lookup table for density
[14:42] <Laurenceb> maybe I'll just use a matlab script - that was run onboard the rogallo
[14:47] <Laurenceb> I think maybe those glitches are the chute folding up
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[15:34] <Laurenceb> hi jcoxon
[15:34] <Laurenceb> aha theres a bug in the drag coefficient filtering code - ignore the large scale features in that graph
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[15:39] <jcoxon> hey Laurenceb
[15:42] <G8KHW> Aggggggg save me. - bored - choosing curtain material with the wife
[15:42] <edmoore> :)
[15:47] <jcoxon> hehe
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[15:48] <Laurenceb> arg this is confusing
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[15:48] <Laurenceb> extended kalman filter make my brain explode
[15:49] <edmoore> that's what it's designed to do
[15:49] <edmoore> also something about medlling non-linear dynamics
[15:49] <Laurenceb> I think the error handling is wrong
[15:49] <Laurenceb> so it biases towards using higher velocity results
[15:50] <Laurenceb> and that effect has some altitude dependance
[15:50] <Laurenceb> leading to the apparent drift
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[15:51] <Laurenceb> I should probably just sim this first in matlab... going straight to C and flashing it on the uC is a bit loony
[15:51] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, you are mad
[15:51] <Laurenceb> its all automated
[15:52] <Laurenceb> press F7
[15:52] <Laurenceb> but yes its still mad
[15:53] <Laurenceb> my little co processor :P
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[16:02] <rharrison> edmoore: hi
[16:02] <rharrison> What are you planning to do with your condom?
[16:03] <rharrison> UK?
[16:03] <edmoore> uk?
[16:03] <rharrison> launch?
[16:03] <Laurenceb> erm
[16:03] <edmoore> it's for making rockets
[16:03] <Laurenceb> wtf
[16:04] <edmoore> we won't be launching a condom
[16:04] <rharrison> Ahh
[16:04] <rharrison> lol
[16:04] <Laurenceb> ok
[16:04] <Laurenceb> good
[16:04] <rharrison> I thought it was the ZP shows how little i know
[16:04] <rharrison> So what exactly is it for?
[16:05] <rharrison> Is it a mould for a rocket?
[16:05] <edmoore> so you have an external polished aluminium mould for the rocket
[16:05] <edmoore> it's a shellf of two halves
[16:05] <edmoore> shell*
[16:05] <rharrison> And it's made of latex
[16:05] <edmoore> the carbon fibre gets laid up on the inside, and the two halves are put together, and the whole thing gets backed in the autoclave
[16:06] <edmoore> in the middle you put the condom - an external air line comes in and pressurises the condom
[16:06] <edmoore> pushing the carbon fibre up against the walls of the mould
[16:06] <rharrison> Cool. I have to say I know nothing of rocket constrution
[16:06] <rharrison> That makes goods sense
[16:06] <rharrison> Things are motoring then
[16:06] <rharrison> Any pics
[16:08] <edmoore> it occured to me we should probs take pics of all this stuff
[16:08] <edmoore> but no, not yet
[16:08] <Laurenceb> doesnt the condom burn?
[16:08] <edmoore> well, not online
[16:08] <rharrison> Yep that would be most cool
[16:08] <edmoore> Laurenceb: no - it's made of silicone
[16:08] <Laurenceb> ok
[16:08] <Laurenceb> nmelt
[16:08] <edmoore> it was itself set in the mould
[16:08] <edmoore> no
[16:08] <edmoore> it's good for the temps we do it at
[16:08] <rharrison> The adv. of latex
[16:08] <Laurenceb> ok... I kind of under4stand
[16:08] <edmoore> it's < 200 degrees c
[16:08] <Laurenceb> ah I se
[16:09] <edmoore> the autoclave looks pretty cool rharrison - about the size of a small truck
[16:09] <edmoore> a big old overn/pressure vessel
[16:09] <Laurenceb> where is it?
[16:09] <edmoore> eng dept
[16:09] <Laurenceb> nice
[16:09] <rharrison> In the dungon?
[16:09] <edmoore> lol no
[16:09] <edmoore> it's bigger than about 4 dungeons put together
[16:09] <Laurenceb> dungeon?
[16:10] <rharrison> wow when was it last fired up?
[16:10] <edmoore> it's in a pretty big room on the bottom floor of one of the eng department buildings
[16:10] <Laurenceb> not as good as the nuclear basement at oxford
[16:10] <edmoore> erm, few days ago?
[16:10] <edmoore> it's often being put on cycles
[16:10] <rharrison> Ok so it's not antiquated
[16:10] <edmoore> oh no
[16:10] <edmoore> quite new
[16:10] <edmoore> quite a high tech bit of kit
[16:10] <rharrison> and they will let you bake a rocket cool.
[16:11] <edmoore> it doesn't get used that much really
[16:11] <edmoore> that whole area
[16:11] <rharrison> Glad my taxes are going to good use
[16:11] <edmoore> there's a chilled room next door for sotrage and layup of compositves
[16:11] <edmoore> composites*
[16:11] <Laurenceb> chilled?
[16:11] <Laurenceb> so the resin doesnt set?
[16:12] <edmoore> AC and a big freezer
[16:12] <edmoore> yes
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[16:12] <Laurenceb> neat
[16:12] <edmoore> right, i'll bbl
[16:12] Nick change: edmoore -> edmoore|away
[16:12] <Laurenceb> there used to be a research reactor at oxford, now they use the reactor hall as labs
[16:13] <Laurenceb> but all the concrete walls are still there, and big isolation doors, so everyone jokes if ww3 breaks out the only survivors will be the physics undergrads
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[16:41] <edmoore|away> bk
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[16:47] <rharrison> .
[16:47] <rharrison> I'm going to learn the basics if eagle this w/e
[16:48] <rharrison> hope to have a basic icarus board out by sunday
[16:48] Action: rharrison thinks it can't be that hard can it!
[16:48] <edmoore|away> it's just one of those things that gets better the more you do it
[16:49] <edmoore|away> it's easy enought, but the first board probably won't be your best!
[16:49] <rharrison> Will probably add some spare VCC GND and GPIO pins
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> for home-etching?
[16:49] <rharrison> SHould they be needed later.
[16:49] <rharrison> SpeedEvil: No
[16:49] <rharrison> For sending off
[16:49] <Laurenceb> batchpcb
[16:49] <rharrison> yep
[16:49] <edmoore|away> stay clear
[16:49] <Laurenceb> if you dont mind waiting
[16:50] <edmoore|away> unless you don't kind waiting half a year
[16:50] <edmoore|away> olimex.com
[16:50] <rharrison> oh sorry I meant to get a batch produced
[16:50] <Laurenceb> lool
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[16:50] <Laurenceb> olimex are a bit poor spec wise
[16:50] <Laurenceb> pcb cart are good, but very pricy for small orders
[16:51] <Laurenceb> if you have a lot of stuff gold phoenix
[16:51] <rharrison> I'll get the eagle out first using SF tutorial
[16:51] <edmoore|away> they have basically the same spec as gf
[16:51] Action: SpeedEvil quite likes 'PCB'
[16:51] <edmoore|away> more than enough for what rob wants to do anyway
[16:51] Nick change: edmoore|away -> edmoore
[16:51] <Laurenceb> yeah, I'm going to use PCB in future
[16:51] <Laurenceb> if you have money to burn, there are places in the UK with very fast turnaroud
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[16:52] Action: SpeedEvil thought rharrison was state-side.
[16:52] <rharrison> Right well I'll save the decision till I have the files ready. If some one would glance them befor hand that would be appreciated
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> Pop over to ##electroncs if noone is around
[16:53] <rharrison> Ok will do
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> questions like that tend to get a good response
[16:53] <Laurenceb> dont feed the trolls
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> There are some strange people in there. (other than me)
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> But it's much nicer than ##linux or some other channels.
[16:53] <rharrison> Surly not stranger :P
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> flyback.
[16:54] <Laurenceb> CANUCK
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> He talks about his anus, his love of a girl in high school (15 years ago), and him killing himself.
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> And won't shutup about any of it.
[16:54] <rharrison> obv. a complete looser then
[16:55] <rharrison> :)
[16:55] <rharrison> Right
[16:55] <rharrison> I'm going to go home and fire up the eagle
[16:55] Action: SpeedEvil wanders outside to see if his concrete has set.
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[16:59] <SpeedEvil> Yay!
[16:59] Action: SpeedEvil doesn't have to get up on the roof and fix it.
[17:01] <Laurenceb> yuo have a concreet roof?
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> No.
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> [msg(dibblah)] fail to start, or crack?
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> [Dibblah(n=allan@80-192-14-169.cable.ubr02.dund.blueyonder.co.uk)] Start fine.
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> [Dibblah(n=allan@80-192-14-169.cable.ubr02.dund.blueyonder.co.uk)] But green hue and black around the edges.
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> [the_5th_wheel ] [thepointer ] [theBear ] [theDarkAura1 ]
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> [][SpeedEvil] [] [Query: dibblah]
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[17:02] Action: SpeedEvil fails.
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> http://www.mauve.plus.com/roof1.jpg
[17:02] <Laurenceb> http://www.calsky.com/?GPS=
[17:02] <Laurenceb> oh god
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> The gable-end - the sandstone is somewhat porous, and is allowing water to get in.
[17:02] <Laurenceb> parapet walls like that can be a complete pain
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> So I've skimmed it with ~1" of concrete.
[17:03] <Laurenceb> is there a dpm?
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> no.
[17:03] <Laurenceb> :-S
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> I'm not sure if I'm going to cover it with granite tiles, for a permenant fix.
[17:04] <Laurenceb> ah ok
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> with a ground surface, not shiny.
[17:04] <Laurenceb> yeah you could stick them in with threaded stainless bar
[17:04] <Laurenceb> and epoxy
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> perhaps, yes.
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> I've got the bar and epoxy.
[17:05] <Laurenceb> I used that technique to fix walls
[17:05] <Laurenceb> to structural steelwork
[17:06] <SpeedEvil> My house is 2 cottages with a seperating wall - originally they were totally seperate.
[17:06] <SpeedEvil> About 10m*5m each, longways.
[17:06] <SpeedEvil> the wall in the middle is massive, and I'd really like to remove it and the chimney.
[17:07] <SpeedEvil> But that raises issues of steelwork to make damn sure the walls don't move.
[17:07] <Laurenceb> yeah
[17:07] <Laurenceb> http://www.mauve.plus.com/walls/dsc01670.jpg <-- thats erm... slightly unconvensional
[17:07] <Laurenceb> guess it will work
[17:07] <SpeedEvil> Seems to work thoguh.
[17:08] <Laurenceb> is there any damp in the wall?
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> it's seperated from the wall, there is an air gap, good airflow, and it's all treated wood.
[17:08] <Laurenceb> ok
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> And worst case, I am fitting a plenum/cable-duct along the bottom of the wall, and can fit fans.
[17:09] <Laurenceb> is there a dpm in the wall?
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> Rising damp isn't an issue.
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> And no.
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> the walls basically are 6" down into sand.
[17:09] <Laurenceb> just use insulation backed plasterboard
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> And 60cm wide.
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> Significanlty more expensive alas.
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> Cash is a problem.
[17:10] <Laurenceb> you could probably get a grant
[17:10] <SpeedEvil> Nope.
[17:10] <SpeedEvil> Grants for cavity wall and loft.
[17:10] <SpeedEvil> And draft-proofing.
[17:10] <Laurenceb> sucks
[17:11] <SpeedEvil> There are no grants for going from a structurally sound dry, but uninsulated property, to an insulated one. If you can't do cavity wall.
[17:11] <Laurenceb> yeah
[17:11] <SpeedEvil> As basically, doing it 'properly' will cost ~6-10K
[17:11] <SpeedEvil> Whereas cavity wall may cost 200.
[17:12] <Laurenceb> problem with fibreglass is its a lot thicker
[17:12] <SpeedEvil> Somewhat, yes.
[17:13] <SpeedEvil> Though this is .032W/m^2/K, rather than the more common 0.04
[17:13] <Laurenceb> ok
[17:13] <SpeedEvil> And yes, if I could just buy a load of insulated kingspan, that'd be the easy way to go.
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> I'm using it now for the window-edges.
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> which is much easier.
[17:14] <Laurenceb> kingspan is a bit pricy
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> Seems to be competitive with any other 0.02W/m^2/K rigid foam.
[17:15] <Laurenceb> yeah may depend where you are
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> And cheaper per insulative quality than polystyrene.
[17:16] <Laurenceb> yeah polystyrene is quite poor
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> though there are polystyrenes available blown with CFC that get 0.3W/m^2/K, not 0.4 of more typical ones.
[17:16] <Laurenceb> you could always use tri iso super10
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> ?
[17:17] <Laurenceb> the ron paul of insulation products
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> Well...
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> I have done some sums for a plywood cased aluminium sealed vacuum insulation panel with MLI inside it.
[17:18] <Laurenceb> MLI?
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> Multi Layer Insulation.
[17:18] <Laurenceb> ok
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> Aluminised mylar, lots of layers, but in a hard vacuum.
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> The heat transfer is tiny.
[17:18] <Laurenceb> yeah thats what tri iso is, but it doesnt meet any regs... which is all a huge consiracy...
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> However, the numbers I came up with indicated it couldn't be done without active pumping.
[17:19] <SpeedEvil> It's not.
[17:19] <Laurenceb> Im being ironic
[17:19] <SpeedEvil> Vacuum MLI and atmospheric pressure has well over an order of magnitude difference in heat transfer.
[17:19] <Laurenceb> thats what all the tri iso "supporters" claim
[17:19] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[17:19] <SpeedEvil> Oh - that bubble stuff.
[17:19] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[17:24] <Laurenceb> you seen this? http://www.calsky.com/?GPS=
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> I was using xephem.
[17:28] <SpeedEvil> Lightly modified to give milimeter per second range-rates.
[17:28] <SpeedEvil> Oh - not quite what I thoguht it was.
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[17:35] <Laurenceb> I'll have to record some setting sats
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[17:45] <Laurenceb> I'd never really realised how slowly they move
[17:45] <Laurenceb> PRN31 should be ready by the time I get back to campus
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> 12h
[17:53] <Laurenceb> I want it just a few degrees of the horizon
[17:53] <SpeedEvil> why?
[17:53] <Laurenceb> too look at propogation
[17:53] <SpeedEvil> ah
[17:54] <Laurenceb> I want to get raw IF from an occultation event
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[17:54] <Laurenceb> rather than just pseudorange and doppler
[17:54] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about large satellite occultations.
[17:55] <SpeedEvil> You'd of course need to position yourself in the path.
[17:55] <SpeedEvil> sort of bistatic synthetic apature radar.
[17:57] <Laurenceb> position yourself?
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> No.
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> Position yourself between a GPS satellite and another satellite.
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> Use the signal variation to derive information about the shape of the satellite.
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> With one reciever, you get a 1D stripe (sort-of) more would be required to get 3d info
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[18:02] <Laurenceb> whats the point of thisd?
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> interest.
[18:02] <Laurenceb> your better of doing atmospheric opservations
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> for example, determining the exact shape of spy satellites.
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> Just because it's fun.
[18:03] <Laurenceb> guess you could work out where such an even would occur on the surface
[18:03] <Laurenceb> but ionly if you had good ephemeris for the spy sat
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> that's quite common
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> there are people out there that track them
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> ccd camera + quite a modest scope + staring
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[18:25] <mogwie> Anyone know if something like this could transmit from a HAB to ground? http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.19760
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> yebbut nobbut yebbut nobbut.
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> It quotes a range of 300m.
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> You might get 400m, due to really clear space.
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> But anything more than that is going to need a dish.
[18:27] <mogwie> Hm, but 2W shouldnt that go pretty far?
[18:28] <mogwie> 800mhz at 1W can go many miles.
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> For 30Km range, you need a factor of about 60 times more.
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> Video
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> That'll be a dish a bit over a meter I think.
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> Yes.
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> Whether a link works depends on several things.
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> Antenna gains + path loss.
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> Then signal bandwidth and noise figures, and background noises.
[18:30] <mogwie> I know that part. I guess I though 2.4ghz would work if it was line of sight.
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> In short, you'll probably need a ~2m dish to pick it up at 30Km.
[18:31] <mogwie> I have to read up on that stuff. An dish would be tricky. I would like to drive to get the balloon at the same time.
[18:32] <SpeedEvil> You really don't need live video.
[18:32] <mogwie> This is true. But its fun.
[18:32] <SpeedEvil> Yup.
[18:33] <mogwie> All you need is a aprs tracker or simelar. That was the only part that worked well on our launch.
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[19:07] <Xenion> Guten Abend alle miteinander :-) / Good Evening folks :D
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[19:29] <fergusnoble> mogwie: might be worth a go, we get good results sending our telem back with only 10mW
[19:29] <fergusnoble> although thats a lot less bandwidth than video
[19:30] <fergusnoble> jcoxon has sent pictures back with only 10mW
[19:30] <fergusnoble> our 10mW transmitter has quoted range of 100m but we have got good signal from it over 100km away
[19:31] <fergusnoble> due to having line of sight
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> video is a different matter though
[19:32] <fergusnoble> yeah but 2w is 200 times the power
[19:32] <fergusnoble> although i guess we were using a sensitive reciever
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> And 2000 times the bandwidth
[19:33] <fergusnoble> but more tolerant of noise
[19:33] <fergusnoble> tbh i dont know, but i wouldnt be suprised
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> but 2000 times more noise
[19:36] <fergusnoble> i guess there is more free space path loos at 2.4ghz
[19:36] <fergusnoble> and more absorbtion by moisture
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> And more in-bandwidth noise
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> both externally generated and internally
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[19:43] <Laurenceb> I missed PRN31 :(
[19:44] <Laurenceb> PRN29 may work
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> Gotta catch them all.
[19:48] <Laurenceb> I'll wait 20 minutes or so
[19:48] <Laurenceb> the weather is perfect, lots of activity
[19:49] <Laurenceb> but its not raining
[19:50] <Laurenceb> lots of patchy clouds and looks like there are some regions of quite high windspeed
[19:51] <Laurenceb> hopefully it will create some interesting effects
[19:52] <Laurenceb> ideally I need about 16 patch ants on a tripod to form a mechanically steerable antenna
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[20:18] <edmoore> sup
[20:19] <rjharrison> boo
[20:23] <edmoore> all well?
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[20:32] <Xenion> Gute Nacht / Good Night - sleep well ! :-)
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[21:02] <Laurenceb> back
[21:02] Action: Laurenceb now has 40MB of ADC data
[21:03] <Laurenceb> wnet up to the cathedral and recorded when elevation was ~-0.1 degrees
[21:03] <Laurenceb> hopefully this worked :-/
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[21:15] <hallam> Laurenceb, did I gather correctly that you're collecting GPS IF data? What with?
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[21:23] <Laurenceb> hallam SiGe sampler
[21:23] <Laurenceb> I'm aiming to get a large (few seconds) dataset as a sat is setting
[21:24] <Laurenceb> then look in delay doppler space for any interesting weather related features
[21:24] <akawaka> whats that do?
[21:24] <Laurenceb> akawaka: its a gps front end
[21:25] <Laurenceb> so it downconverts to 8MHz
[21:25] <Laurenceb> or rather it down converts to 0
[21:25] <Laurenceb> using direct downconversion, then samples I and Q channels at 8MSps
[21:25] <hallam> cool, I have one of those but havent' used it yet
[21:26] <Laurenceb> and shoves it to you over usb
[21:26] <Laurenceb> hallam: good buy
[21:26] <hallam> have you had any luck getting position data from it?
[21:26] <Laurenceb> not sure if they are making any more
[21:26] <Laurenceb> hallam: almost , there seemed to be some bugs in the code
[21:26] <hallam> I also have 10 of the chips and plan on making unrestricted rocket trackers with them
[21:26] <Laurenceb> I used the code from kai borre
[21:27] <hallam> hm, his site seems to be down
[21:28] <Laurenceb> I got my own delay doppler code to work in matlab, I'm just getting it running in octave doiing 1ms integrations
[21:28] <Laurenceb> hallam: I got his book off amazon
[21:29] <Laurenceb> hallam: where did you get the chips?
[21:29] <hallam> wrote to SiGe
[21:29] <Laurenceb> neat
[21:29] <Laurenceb> free samples?
[21:29] <hallam> I'm sure I can part with one or two if you need them
[21:29] <hallam> yeah
[21:29] <Laurenceb> hallam: thanks
[21:29] <hallam> they won't sell in small quantities though
[21:30] <Laurenceb> yeah I was thinking of a LOEN on a spartan 3
[21:30] <hallam> LOEN?
[21:30] <Laurenceb> with MEMS gyors , accels and magnotometer
[21:31] <Laurenceb> LEON*
[21:31] <Laurenceb> open soft core
[21:32] <Laurenceb> hmm something is killing my machine... thing the octave script has eaten my ram :-S
[21:32] <Laurenceb> hallam: calsky is a good site for seeing what GPS sats are visible
[21:33] <hallam> I use Trimble's planning app
[21:33] <Laurenceb> ah yeah I have that installed
[21:33] <Laurenceb> doh
[21:34] <hallam> lets you tell it what the obstructions are from your site and gives you appropriate coverage graphs
[21:36] <Laurenceb> the lassen iq gives you some nice raw data - I was thinking the badger board would be perfect for testing firmware for a gps augmented IMU
[21:37] <edmoore> almost want to just get one of those all in one analog sensors for badger
[21:37] <edmoore> saves so much hassle
[21:38] <Laurenceb> use the pseudorange, doppler and ephemeris from the iq
[21:38] <hallam> Ed, why not, we have budget
[21:38] <hallam> if you end up producing badger for sale, can just make a cheap clone
[21:39] <edmoore> $360 though!
[21:40] <edmoore> I guess it's easily removable
[21:41] <hallam> the connector is annoyingly big
[21:41] <hallam> you do know it's just a micro and several of their cheap sensors, right?
[21:41] <edmoore> I think I sent exactly the same sentance to you about 3 months ago
[21:42] <Laurenceb> you can actually stick the dlassen iq data straight into the kalman filter
[21:42] <hallam> haha, right, I couldn't remember if it was you or Fergus I heard that from
[21:43] <edmoore> It's a whole lot less ugly though :)
[21:43] <edmoore> oh well
[21:43] <hallam> laurence, why is that data any more useful than the nice position and velocity output from the Lassen?
[21:43] <Laurenceb> hallam: its not filtered as much
[21:44] <Laurenceb> also, its only filtered by the loop filters
[21:44] <Laurenceb> on the DLLS
[21:44] <hallam> but what makes you think you can filter it better than the engineers at Trimble?
[21:44] <edmoore> the loop filters usually fail before the longitudinal filters
[21:44] <edmoore> oh no, that's hoop stress
[21:44] <hallam> hahaha
[21:45] <edmoore> hallam: the inertial sensors are another data source that the trimble engineers don't have
[21:46] <Laurenceb> the carrier PLL will have an even smaller effect on dopplerexactly
[21:46] <Laurenceb> yeah, the filtering on the lassen isnt optimal
[21:47] <edmoore> hallam: do you still have lessens hanging around?
[21:47] <edmoore> lassens*
[21:47] <hallam> yeah
[21:47] <hallam> 2 or 3
[21:47] <Laurenceb> it may well run its own kalman filter, and two independant kalman filters is not goood
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[21:48] <edmoore> it's ok isn't it?
[21:48] <edmoore> computationally advantageous to stagger two smaller ones than hve one single larger one
[21:48] <edmoore> sure the quality of the info is less good
[21:48] <edmoore> but we're engineers so we understand the notion of compropmise
[21:49] <Laurenceb> lol
[21:49] <Laurenceb> it works, but the performance is decreased
[21:49] <edmoore> hallam: am going to pm you
[21:49] <edmoore> i annoucne this as on meebo, it doesn't really alert you
[21:55] <fergusnoble> edmoore: your phone is off
[21:55] <fergusnoble> edmoore: shall i head up? what time are you going to bed?
[21:55] <edmoore> fergusnoble: it has crashed
[21:55] <edmoore> well spotted
[21:55] <edmoore> yes
[21:56] <edmoore> i will brew up some coffee
[21:56] <fergusnoble> ok, it will take a while
[21:56] <edmoore> lets bum rape the best flight computer ever
[21:56] <fergusnoble> im going to have to do a late one
[21:56] <edmoore> i will pick you up
[21:56] <fergusnoble> really?
[21:56] <edmoore> ok, well - what state is orbital sim in?
[21:56] <fergusnoble> that would be friggin awesome
[21:56] <fergusnoble> erm, not started
[21:56] <edmoore> sure, you can't wonder around in the freezing cold
[21:56] <fergusnoble> but its ok, turns out its not an orbital sim
[21:56] <edmoore> can get henry here too if he wants :)
[21:57] <fergusnoble> just got to estimate pi by monte carlo
[21:57] <fergusnoble> :)
[21:57] <fergusnoble> the orbital sim is the next one
[21:58] <edmoore> lol
[21:58] <edmoore> fergusnoble: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bgelb/2492302235/in/set-72157605060449577/
[21:58] <edmoore> take a look at the complexity of the payload
[21:58] <edmoore> idea: badger2 all singing/all dancing
[21:58] <edmoore> then a seperate radio board with arm for that day when main badger runs out of time to do radio
[21:58] <fergusnoble> we can chat when i get there
[21:59] <fergusnoble> yup
[21:59] <edmoore> but also just stick a lassen connector on the seperate radio board - and you have a super cheap tracker
[21:59] <fergusnoble> yup
[21:59] <edmoore> right, do you want me to pick you up?
[21:59] <edmoore> hallam?
[21:59] <fergusnoble> if thats ok, ill phone henry
[21:59] <edmoore> he is here
[21:59] <edmoore> we were PMing 2 secs ago
[21:59] <fergusnoble> in your room?
[21:59] <edmoore> no, on irc
[21:59] <fergusnoble> ok
[22:00] <edmoore> hallam: ping
[22:00] <edmoore> just phone him anyway :)
[22:00] <fergusnoble> ok, hes coming over to mine
[22:00] <hallam> okay, I'll come along
[22:00] <fergusnoble> how long will you be?
[22:01] <edmoore> anything from 10 mins to whenever you want
[22:01] <fergusnoble> 10 mins is good
[22:01] <hallam> ferg, how many digits of pi do you need?
[22:01] <fergusnoble> just need to stuff my laptop in a bag
[22:01] <edmoore> ok
[22:01] <fergusnoble> hallam: not sure, not read the instructions yet
[22:02] <fergusnoble> how many digits long is pi again?
[22:02] <edmoore> good one
[22:02] <edmoore> right, I will leave now
[22:02] <edmoore> and you can think about the poverty of your joke
[22:02] <edmoore> hallam: where am i picking you up from?
[22:03] <hallam> chez Ferg
[22:03] <edmoore> ok
[22:03] <edmoore> 10 mins then
[22:03] <edmoore> i'll be by the bollards
[22:03] <fergusnoble> ok, see you in a sec
[22:03] <edmoore> 600 secs
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