highaltitude.log.20081217

[00:00] <RocketBoy> against it
[00:00] <SpeedEvil> I don't so much mind hardware being sold with XP.
[00:00] <edmoore> I agree
[00:00] <SpeedEvil> As long as I can get a refund if I want it off there.
[00:00] <edmoore> as microsoft only charge about £20 for XP for netbooks
[00:00] <edmoore> with the wretched hardware strings attached
[00:01] Action: SpeedEvil is trying to work out what I need for xmas.
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> Problem is my existing laptop is in some ways much better than the netbooks.
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> Smaller, lighter than many, better battery life.
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> But it's starting to really show its age.
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> (PII/300)
[00:02] <edmoore> blimey
[00:02] <edmoore> that is pretty old
[00:02] <edmoore> I would love an old thinkpad
[00:03] <edmoore> one of the 12" ones
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> But.
[00:03] <edmoore> actually, I want xp, as much as i hate to say it
[00:03] <edmoore> too many programming widgets are xp only
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> It's 1.1Kg, has a 120G drive in it, and has ~8 hour battery life, with integral bluetooth and wifi
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> and a good 10" screen.
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> (It diddn't start out with integral bluetooth and wifi)
[00:06] <RocketBoy> i have a old 486 thinkpad somewhere
[00:07] <edmoore> they rock on forever
[00:07] <RocketBoy> still works
[00:07] <RocketBoy> well last time I tried
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> This was IIRC about 2100 quid new
[00:08] <RocketBoy> U R welcome to it if you want
[00:08] <edmoore> will it run xp, do you reckon?
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> I have a 486sx/25 laptop somewhere.
[00:08] <edmoore> also does it have a serial port?
[00:09] <RocketBoy> yes it has serial - I used it as a terminal last
[00:09] <edmoore> oh amazing
[00:09] <edmoore> well... if you don't want it, that could be super super useful
[00:09] <RocketBoy> i'll dig it out and see what its got
[00:13] <natrium42> hi RocketBoy
[00:19] <RocketBoy> hi natrium42
[00:20] <RocketBoy> i'm off to bed shortly - gotta work 2morrow
[00:20] <natrium42> aah, ok
[00:20] <natrium42> :S
[00:24] <RocketBoy> c u chaps - i'll try to get on 2 morrow night
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[12:23] <Laurenceb> helo
[12:27] <Laurenceb> http://vash.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Anims/bushoes.gif
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[15:12] <EI5GTB> ohai
[15:12] <EI5GTB> anyone familir with the legalities of broadband.. my exchange can provide 7.6Mbit but bt refuse to aknowledge this
[15:13] <EI5GTB> im paying for 7.6 mb and only getting 3
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[15:59] <SpeedEvil> hahahahah
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> hahahahahahhahahah
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> Having said that.
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> hahahahah
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> But in reality.
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> ADSL depends on your cable length and quality.
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> Also the equipment at the ends of the line have a big issue.
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> I for example am on an 'up to' 8M link, and get ~2 most of the time.
[16:01] <SpeedEvil> If you read the small print, then there are words to this effect.
[16:12] <edmoore> almost completely a function of your distance from the exchange
[16:12] <edmoore> welcome to the world of digital communication
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> And SNR
[16:13] Action: SpeedEvil has a constant ~63dB drop
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> But a SNR that varies so much that I get from ~480-2M/s
[16:15] <EI5GTB> SpeedEvil, what does your modem say?
[16:15] <EI5GTB> does it saqy 2mb or 8 mb
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> It constantly recites the poems of Keats.
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> Typically, you will not get anything saying 'this line is configured to a maximum of 8M/s'
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> just the speed it's currently achieving, and the signal-noise ratio
[16:17] <EI5GTB> yea, i mean, my modem says 3mb, even though i may only get 1.5 to 2 mb dependiong on traffic
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> EI5GTB: what ISP are you with, and is this a LLU product or not?
[16:17] <EI5GTB> BT
[16:18] <EI5GTB> "theres your problem"
[16:18] <SpeedEvil> It's horribly fucking complex.
[16:18] <edmoore> it's not really an isp issue in particular
[16:18] <edmoore> just, like SpeedEvil says, snr, and distance to exchange
[16:18] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: it is - because of:
[16:18] <edmoore> though snr is partly a function of distance to exchange
[16:18] <SpeedEvil> A) BT have exploded into several little bits WRT ADSL.
[16:19] <SpeedEvil> First, you've got BT wholesale.
[16:19] <SpeedEvil> These sell broadband lines to ISPs, on a equal basis.
[16:20] <SpeedEvil> Now, you've got BT consumer - these buy from BT wholesale, and then sell on to customers, as other ISPs - plusnet et al do.
[16:20] <SpeedEvil> Complicating this - ISPs - if they are large enough can avoid buying all the lines from the exchange to the NOC.
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> They can only buy the right to install their own equipment (to varying levels) in the exchange, and then carry their own data back
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> Then there is BT openreach - who are the guys that work on the cables outside - for all ISPs really.
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> So, an ISP can under local-loop-unbundling install kit capable of 24mbps on your line (if you are on a participating exchange) 'Be' do this.
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> The same ISP can also have another tarrif for exchanges they don't have equipment in for conections made through BT wholesale.
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> Exactly how your line limits work after this is even more horribly complex, and variable over products.
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> (artificial limits over and above SNR)
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> Graphs are fun. Looking at my SNR/frequency graph, I can see that radio 4 is costing me about 20kbits/second.
[16:25] <edmoore> why not stick it on the radio?
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> It is.
[16:25] <edmoore> oh i seeeeee
[16:25] <edmoore> over wireless?
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> the 198Khz broadcast knocks out a couple of channels of the OFDM
[16:26] <edmoore> i guess that makes sense
[16:26] <edmoore> definitely not something else?
[16:28] <SpeedEvil> Well - 198KHz is a comparatively very powerful signal.
[16:28] <SpeedEvil> And the phone wires are well over a wavelength
[16:28] <edmoore> surely not once it's got to your house though
[16:29] <edmoore> are your wires above ground?
[16:29] <SpeedEvil> It's induced in the line due to assymetries in the lines.
[16:29] <SpeedEvil> And the terminations.
[16:29] <edmoore> and it only knocks out two channels?
[16:30] <edmoore> the ofdm 'chunks' are 3.7khz iirc?
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> OFDM
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> yes
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> something like that
[16:30] <edmoore> and the am broadcast bandwidth is ~15khz
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> ~9
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> For LW. I think it's actually a bit less
[16:31] <edmoore> are fair enough
[16:31] <edmoore> guess that makes ense then
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> It may be three bands it affects, I haven't really checked.
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> There is just a very noticable notch at the right place.
[16:31] <edmoore> cool
[16:32] <edmoore> or 'noch', perhaps :p
[16:32] <edmoore> geek pun alert
[16:33] <EI5GTB> consideering im >2km from the exchange..
[16:33] <EI5GTB> < 2km rather
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> Al wires?
[16:34] <EI5GTB> and someone 2.5 km from the exchange has 8mb :P
[16:34] <EI5GTB> yup
[16:34] <edmoore> still not all that suprising
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> EI5GTB: you absolutely cannot do that
[16:34] <edmoore> you may just have a bend in your wire
[16:34] <EI5GTB> lol
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> EI5GTB: wiring lengths can be wacky and historical
[16:34] <EI5GTB> SpeedEvil, ?
[16:34] <edmoore> that'd fade a whole bunch of channels out
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> they may well not reflect logical wiring on the ground.
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> But can - for example - reflect that the exchange ran out of space in 1985
[16:35] <EI5GTB> SpeedEvil, i talked to one of the people who put the lines in in the first place :p
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> Fair enough.
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> But still.
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> Lines can vary lots.
[16:35] <EI5GTB> hmm, well, this guy pulled the calbles...
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> One for example has a bad joint, ...
[16:35] <EI5GTB> so he knows where they went
[16:35] <EI5GTB> yea, my problem is, BT tell me my exchange cant do the speed
[16:36] <EI5GTB> yet it can
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> Can you find a router page stating SNR?
[16:36] <EI5GTB> yea
[16:36] <EI5GTB> 2 secs
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> The phone monkeys don't know stuff.
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> What's your SNR margins, current speeds.
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[16:40] <Bluenarf> ffs
[16:40] <Bluenarf> dumb ass isp
[16:40] <Bluenarf> my SNR is 19dB on the down and 17dB on the up
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[17:06] <SpeedEvil> SNR margin?
[17:07] <EI5GTB> margin>
[17:07] <EI5GTB> ?
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> SNR Margin (dB): 0.8 8.0
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> Attenuation (dB): 63.5 31.5
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> Attainable Rate (Kbps): 3040 624
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> Rate (Kbps): 2752 448
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> That's an excerpt from my status
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> This shows the attenuation down and up, and the amount of leeway the connection has before it loses connection and needs to retrain
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> which shows that I'm probably about to lose connection - 0.8 is almost at the margins.
[17:10] <EI5GTB> oic
[17:10] <SpeedEvil> attenuation is the amount of signal loss in the line
[17:10] <EI5GTB> SNR Margin: 20.93 19. 0 dB
[17:10] <SpeedEvil> 63dB is about a millionth of the power going into the line at teh top going out
[17:10] <SpeedEvil> You may be able to tweak your modem to have a lower target SNR
[17:10] <edmoore> 1 2millionth
[17:11] <EI5GTB> Line Attenuation: 45.50 21.50 dB
[17:11] <SpeedEvil> The exchange gives your router a target SNR
[17:11] <SpeedEvil> (as I understand it)
[17:11] <SpeedEvil> My modem however has a comedy error.
[17:11] <EI5GTB> hmm, i see
[17:12] <EI5GTB> :P
[17:12] <SpeedEvil> It has a sign error, so telling it you want to increase the margin by 65430
[17:12] <SpeedEvil> reduces it a lot.
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[17:14] <EI5GTB> lol
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[19:45] <EI5GTB> http://paulsnet.org/bmi.wav
[19:45] <EI5GTB> bmi baby, service to die for
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[22:20] <G8KHW> bbl
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[22:59] <Laurenceb> hello folks
[23:02] <natrium42> hi Laurenceb
[23:03] <akawaka> yo
[23:03] <natrium42> hi akawaka
[23:05] Action: Laurenceb is trying to understand the lunar x prize
[23:05] <Laurenceb> I dont get it
[23:05] <Laurenceb> surely they dont expect people to land on the moon for $30M
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> I don't see the implausibility.
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> However.
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> You're not going to find it at all easy to do with standard rockets.
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> standard rockets meaning stuff bought from boeing et al, not standard in terms of design
[23:08] <Laurenceb> if they provided the launch vehicle
[23:08] <Laurenceb> it might be possible
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> I personally believe I could probably make a creditable stab.
[23:09] <Laurenceb> lol theres an extra prize for finding apollo hardware
[23:09] Action: Laurenceb yets his tinfoil hat
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> That's moderately easy.
[23:09] <Laurenceb> *gets
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> laser illuminating the reteroreflectors.
[23:09] <Laurenceb> with my hat now on, I disagree
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> Confirm that you found it by crashing into it.
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> oops.
[23:10] <Laurenceb> rofl
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> ^'given $20m funding'
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> That's the slightly tricky part.
[23:11] <Laurenceb> lol
[23:11] <Laurenceb> probably madder than the n prize
[23:11] <Laurenceb> you'll have to build your own launch vehicle
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[23:12] <Laurenceb> so in that case the n prize is probably easier
[23:12] <Laurenceb> Speed: have you seen the nebula team?
[23:12] <Laurenceb> just a sec
[23:13] <edmoore> Laurenceb: like most of these things, you're not doing it to make money
[23:13] <Laurenceb> http://www.nebula-prize.com/
[23:13] <Laurenceb> edmoore: sure
[23:13] <Laurenceb> but you dont want to go bankrupt
[23:14] <edmoore> so you get funding
[23:14] <Laurenceb> :P
[23:14] <SpeedEvil> I am of the opinion - having spent a couple of thousand hours a while back looking at it - that - with significant caveats, that isn't that impossible.
[23:14] <natrium42> edmoore, they should send bears up :)
[23:15] <Laurenceb> the nebula guy has some cool ideas
[23:15] <natrium42> or Bear Grylls
[23:16] <edmoore> he's bright, the nebular guy
[23:16] <natrium42> Man Vs. Wild: Surviving on the Moon
[23:16] <edmoore> Peter Jones
[23:16] <Laurenceb> I like the use of common rail diesel injectors and an anular aerospike engine
[23:16] <Laurenceb> just genius
[23:17] <Laurenceb> cheap, off the shelf, very high specific impulse and full attitude control all in one unit
[23:18] <Laurenceb> no flexible hoses, hydralics, bearings ect
[23:18] <SpeedEvil> The significant caveats being that you should absolutely not try to minimise launch mass or stage counts
[23:19] <Laurenceb> yeah
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> You should try to minimise overall design and construction and operations cost.
[23:19] <Laurenceb> I'd use the nebula guys idea with three of four stages
[23:19] <Laurenceb> then propane tanks
[23:19] <Laurenceb> with NOs and kerosene
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> Err...
[23:19] <natrium42> nobody watched man vs. wild? :/
[23:20] <SpeedEvil> aerospikes are not a well demonstrated technology.
[23:20] <edmoore> natrium42: yes
[23:20] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: it doesnt matter
[23:20] <SpeedEvil> Fine, if you've demonstrated them in all aspects of your flight regimen.
[23:20] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: you dont need to outperform a convensional engine
[23:21] <SpeedEvil> Fixed regeneratively cooled engine, with thermal vanes.
[23:21] <SpeedEvil> Fixed regeneratively cooled engine, with vector control vanes
[23:21] <Laurenceb> it would be more work
[23:21] <edmoore> sneezing is cool
[23:21] <Laurenceb> a lot more, and heavier
[23:22] <Laurenceb> if your going to develope an engine, might as well make something interesting
[23:22] Action: SpeedEvil stabs Laurenceb
[23:22] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> Anyone who says 'we should make it interesting' should be taken out and shot.
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> First rule of rocketry club.
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> :)
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> You want it to be deeply, deeply boring, and as expected
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> NASA does interesting, for billions.
[23:23] <edmoore> nasa doesn't
[23:23] <edmoore> there's this great lecture on youtube
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> 'interesting' in the sense that it might not actually work as specified.
[23:23] <edmoore> pete theisinger (or something like that), pathfinder and MER project manager
[23:23] <edmoore> talking about MER
[23:23] Action: SpeedEvil points at X33
[23:23] <Laurenceb> any homemade engine might not
[23:24] <SpeedEvil> _insane_
[23:24] <Laurenceb> X33 FTW
[23:24] <SpeedEvil> three seperate untried technologies that all have to work.
[23:24] <Laurenceb> if only they had cancelled the ISS
[23:24] <Laurenceb> and spent the money on the X33
[23:24] <edmoore> at the Q&A at the end, someone asks 'how do you balance using reliable proven technology with the temptation to do cool new things?'
[23:24] <Laurenceb> :P
[23:24] <edmoore> and he looked at hime, took a swig of water, then said 'I'm a project manager. cool new things are never tempting to do.'
[23:24] <SpeedEvil> X33 was a fucking waste of time.
[23:25] <SpeedEvil> X33 was an attempt to go from the wright flyer to the 747 in one leap.
[23:25] <Laurenceb> seriously, the X33 would have been a better investment than the ISS
[23:26] <Laurenceb> anyone seen the skylon?
[23:27] <natrium42> nope
[23:27] <Laurenceb> http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/skylon_overview.html
[23:29] Action: Laurenceb detects everyone reading
[23:30] <natrium42> uhm
[23:30] <edmoore> am reading boot star trackers
[23:31] <natrium42> interesting
[23:31] <Laurenceb> edmoore: theres a whole team at surrey
[23:31] <natrium42> edmoore, your working at the Hobble, aren't you? >:/
[23:31] <natrium42> *you're
[23:31] <edmoore> yup
[23:31] <edmoore> hobble is hogging my brain time
[23:32] <Laurenceb> but the actual sensors are from a german company
[23:32] <SpeedEvil> Skylon is ...
[23:33] <Laurenceb> http://www.sstl.co.uk/assets/Downloads/Datasheet%20starcamera%20December%202008.pdf
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> The big problem with all airbreathing engines is that it inherently means you're staying comparatively deep in the atmosphere for a relatively long time accellerating slowly.
[23:33] <Laurenceb> edmoore ^
[23:33] <edmoore> ntrs can be so annoying
[23:33] <Laurenceb> ntrs?
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> And mach 10 isn't really that fast anyway.
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> Star trackers - I was looking at ...
[23:34] Action: SpeedEvil tries to remember.
[23:34] <SpeedEvil> fillfactory
[23:34] <edmoore> nasa technical report server
[23:34] <SpeedEvil> who bought them
[23:34] <SpeedEvil> A _massive_ amount of stuff got pulled post 9/11
[23:34] <edmoore> Laurenceb: thanks
[23:34] <edmoore> i want to keep it simple
[23:34] <edmoore> find any old bright star and get the control system to keep it in the corsshairs
[23:34] <edmoore> not so much constelation recognition
[23:35] <Laurenceb> I havent checked out ntrs :(
[23:35] <Laurenceb> must make some visits
[23:35] <edmoore> it's brilliant
[23:35] <Laurenceb> yeah, constellation recognition is the interesting bit
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> Hubble guide-star catalog ++
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> And xephem
[23:36] <Laurenceb> most of the work is going into extropolating star positions to sub pixel position resolution
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> And the little command line program that comes with it.
[23:36] <akawaka> doesn't seem like an overly complex problem if you can afford the cpu power, right?
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> It's not really that abd.
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> bad
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> especially if you blur it a bit
[23:37] <akawaka> if the wii can do it...!
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> eyah
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> the wii chip or similar would be ideal
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> but I don't think they are.
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> I was looking for the 500fps little micron imagers, but I couldn't find anywhere that sold them
[23:38] <Laurenceb> that sstl thingy uses 3 FPGAs ffs
[23:39] Action: SpeedEvil stabs FPGA.
[23:39] <SpeedEvil> There is _way_ too much 'Oooh FPGA!'
[23:39] <Laurenceb> I've been playing about with a spartan 3
[23:39] <Laurenceb> making leds flash ect
[23:39] <SpeedEvil> Let's all turn off our brains and not think about solutions that use minimal CPU
[23:39] G8KHW (n=Steve@217.47.75.27) left irc: "Leaving"
[23:40] <Laurenceb> yeah, I've yet to write any code that needs anything more than an AVR
[23:40] <edmoore> if you're experimenting for a living, surely you want the horsepower to try out ideas quickly
[23:40] <edmoore> rather than having to spend days optimising
[23:40] <edmoore> just to follow a hunch
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: yes, to a degree.
[23:41] <SpeedEvil> Some of the 'mouse' imagers are damn close to what's wanted.
[23:42] <SpeedEvil> the ones aimed at machine vision, low-res
[23:42] <SpeedEvil> stuff like output x/y centroids of brightest 10 objects
[23:42] <SpeedEvil> this is what the wii imager does
[23:42] <edmoore> agreed
[23:42] <akawaka> yeah
[23:42] <edmoore> that was my plan
[23:42] <edmoore> basic real time image proc
[23:42] <akawaka> you don't really need hires, right?
[23:42] <SpeedEvil> akawaka: it depends what you're wanting
[23:43] <edmoore> they're all point sources so no need for LoG filters or nuffink
[23:43] <Laurenceb> my optical mouse will track the lights in my room
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> akawaka: If you want to go from random starfield -> position, then you need (IIRC) magnitude 4, and 50 degrees FOV
[23:43] <Laurenceb> but they dont output about axis rotation
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> Otherwise there is a 'hole' in your attitude positions where you miss stuff.
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> Comedically one actual flown mission fell into this
[23:44] <SpeedEvil> It diddn't have a good enough star database.
[23:44] <SpeedEvil> And went into safe mode after not finding the attitude when it pointed to around 1/40th of the sky IIRC
[23:44] <edmoore> stars are amazing here tonight
[23:45] <edmoore> just spent 20 minutes staring at orion
[23:45] <edmoore> milky way was pretty visible
[23:45] <Laurenceb> I hope orion was clothed at the time
[23:45] Action: SpeedEvil wants to build an orion.
[23:45] Action: SpeedEvil searches ebay for pulse power units.
[23:45] <Laurenceb> "an" orion ?
[23:46] <akawaka> edmoore: far from the city?
[23:46] <edmoore> on the south downs
[23:46] <edmoore> reasonably clear skies round here
[23:49] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Orion - a 1960s nuclear propelled spaceship.
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: take a large steel plate. Spray lightly with cooking oil
[23:50] <akawaka> NUKE!
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: ignite a 10kt bomb a hundred metres away.
[23:50] <Laurenceb> oh my god
[23:50] <Laurenceb> yeah I remeber
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: cooking oil absorbs all bombs x-rays, and rebounds.
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> plate goes other way at 10-20m/s
[23:50] <Laurenceb> well not literally, I'm not that old
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> add shock absorbers, and there you go.
[23:51] <SpeedEvil> IIRC when I did the numbers - if all of above-ground nuclear testing had instead gone into an orion, it could have launched ~50000 tons to the moon.
[23:52] <Laurenceb> how big is the plate?
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> several steradians
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> not the whole hemisphere typically. it's a compromise between bomb energy capture, and difficulty in packing the plate
[23:53] <Laurenceb> pretty big then
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> That 50000 tons would have been in one launch BTW
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> hence, yes, it's big.
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> Think battleship/oil-rig, not your average rocket.
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> Though it was also proposed - more reasonably as a third stage with truly massive delta-v
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> Ground launch does have some problems :)
[23:54] <Laurenceb> youd have to have nukes at several Hz
[23:54] <Laurenceb> madness
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> ~1Hz was planned
[00:00] --- Thu Dec 18 2008