highaltitude.log.20081115

[00:13] bfirsh (n=ben@host-137-205-75-156.res.warwick.ac.uk) left irc:
[00:29] <jcoxon> oooo exciting
[00:35] <Ei5GTB_> shuttle, t -9
[00:39] <jcoxon> uhoh, door issue
[00:42] <Ei5GTB_> yea
[00:42] <Ei5GTB_> ffs, so much discussion about a door
[00:45] <naxxfish> heh
[00:47] <naxxfish> resuming! :D
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[08:07] <jcoxon> morning all
[08:07] <jcoxon> doubt edmoore will log in for quite a while
[08:07] <jcoxon> haha
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[09:51] <Ei5GTB_> sts-126 is go!
[09:51] Nick change: Ei5GTB_ -> EI5GTB
[09:56] <jcoxon> hehe, a little late methinks!
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[10:20] <rjharrison_> Morning all
[10:22] <rjharrison_> anyone know if there is an amature radio channel?
[11:01] <jcoxon> #hamradio
[11:23] <gordonjcp> ##amateur-radio too
[11:23] <rjharrison_> Thanks guys
[11:23] <gordonjcp> mostly populated with people from up this end of the country, for the moment
[11:24] <rjharrison_> I was trying to find out why 73's is goodbye
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[12:11] <Laurenceb> hello
[12:35] <gordonjcp> Laurenceb: hi
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[13:50] <Laurenceb> can anyone help me with this?
[13:50] <Laurenceb> I have a circular arced piece of material intersecting a plane at both ends
[13:50] <Laurenceb> the ends are 406mm apart
[13:50] <Laurenceb> the center is 90mm above the plane
[13:50] <Laurenceb> whats the radius of curvature
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[13:51] <Laurenceb> I tried to solve arcsin(203/r)=arccos((r=90)/r)
[13:51] <Laurenceb> but thats doesnt appear to have a solution
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[17:36] <fuzzylugnuts> Hey
[17:37] <fuzzylugnuts> got a question for y'all.
[17:38] <fuzzylugnuts> I've got the telemetry nailed down fine, the gps goes to transmitter, to reciever then to X.
[17:39] <fuzzylugnuts> Are there any handheld gps units that will plot a second input?
[17:39] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm contemplating just replacing the units gps reciever with my telemetry reciever
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[18:02] <Ei5GTB_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17U5tepeeIA
[18:02] <Ei5GTB_> i wanbt to build one..
[18:02] <fuzzylugnuts> wow
[18:03] <fuzzylugnuts> that is scary
[18:03] <fuzzylugnuts> "can you make it go up?"
[18:03] <fuzzylugnuts> *zoooooooooooooooms up out of site*
[18:04] <Ei5GTB_> yea
[18:04] <Ei5GTB_> i wonat to build one..
[18:04] <fuzzylugnuts> that is super cool
[18:05] <fuzzylugnuts> omg
[18:05] <fuzzylugnuts> that dude's controller is very suggestive
[18:05] <fuzzylugnuts> that would be *perfect* for areial photos
[18:06] <Ei5GTB_> yea
[18:06] <Ei5GTB_> extreme stability
[18:08] <fuzzylugnuts> so its just feedback from a tilt meter to the ESC's?
[18:08] <Ei5GTB_> somthing like that i would imagine
[18:08] <fuzzylugnuts> very neat
[18:08] <Ei5GTB_> in theory its very simple
[18:08] <Ei5GTB_> in practice im sure it takes days of tweaking
[18:09] <fuzzylugnuts> *nodnods*
[18:09] edmoore (n=edmoore@pomegranate.chu.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[18:09] <fuzzylugnuts> mmm
[18:09] <fuzzylugnuts> pom
[18:09] <edmoore> fnoble: ping
[18:09] <Ei5GTB_> hey, edmoore http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17U5tepeeIA
[18:09] <Ei5GTB_> I WANT TO BUILD ONE
[18:10] <Laurenceb> good luck with the kalman filtering
[18:10] <Ei5GTB_> kalman filtering?
[18:11] <Ei5GTB_> ah, noise
[18:11] <edmoore> haha
[18:11] <Ei5GTB_> yea
[18:12] <Laurenceb> looks like you wont be making one anytime soon :P
[18:13] <Laurenceb> argg sewing is just horrible
[18:13] <Ei5GTB_> lol, no i had thought of that... im thinking, some kind of a short average
[18:13] <Laurenceb> soldering over sewing any day
[18:14] <Ei5GTB_> yea
[18:14] <Laurenceb> I'm trying to assemble the wing for the mini rogallo... done about 50mm of seam in 30 minutes
[18:14] <Ei5GTB_> hmm, ok, one of those things are going on my ever growing project list
[18:14] <Ei5GTB_> heh
[18:14] <edmoore> it's not to be attempted without throwing yourself fully at state estimation
[18:15] <Laurenceb> I saw one with thermopiles and one rate gyro
[18:17] <Laurenceb> oh $!"$$
[18:17] <Ei5GTB_> i think the actual stability is one thing... .getting it to stay in the one place above the ground... now thereas another
[18:17] Action: Laurenceb just knocked a plate on the floor with his elbow
[18:18] <Laurenceb> I should brobably take a break from this
[18:18] <Laurenceb> maybe buy a sewing machine
[18:18] <edmoore> yeah, attitude control is tricky but so is position
[18:18] <Laurenceb> and sewing
[18:19] <Ei5GTB_> i could imagine myself having more problems with position... how would you do it?
[18:19] <Ei5GTB_> gps would be way to noisy
[18:19] <edmoore> GPS for lat/long
[18:19] <edmoore> maybe something better for alt
[18:19] <edmoore> but i disagree and thing attitude is very much harder
[18:19] <Ei5GTB_> one heck of a gyro..
[18:19] <Laurenceb> lassen iq is very impressive for alt
[18:19] <edmoore> attitude control is how you move around anyway
[18:20] <edmoore> 1hz is probably not enough
[18:20] <edmoore> ublox lea-5h would be my baseline
[18:20] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:20] <Laurenceb> sparkfun have a good module
[18:21] <Laurenceb> but you could go for a 9 state vector
[18:21] <Laurenceb> erm make that 15 state
[18:21] <Laurenceb> and use accels for position
[18:21] <Ei5GTB_> OR radar mapping of the ground..
[18:21] <Ei5GTB_> :P
[18:22] <edmoore> i thought you wanted this to be realistic :)
[18:22] <Laurenceb> I'd sya a 6 state vector and gps+baro for position
[18:22] <Ei5GTB_> ye
[18:22] <Laurenceb> depends if its fly by wire or autonomous
[18:22] <Ei5GTB_> sorry, i cant help but get carried awayt
[18:22] <Ei5GTB_> well, a mix of both could be good
[18:23] <Ei5GTB_> wait
[18:23] <Ei5GTB_> well, yea... fly by wire one minute, press a button, and it goes auto
[18:23] <Ei5GTB_> im sure fly by wire is abitious enough for V.01beta
[18:23] <Laurenceb> 3 component accels are cheap, just depends what an ARM can do I guess
[18:23] <Laurenceb> unless you go for blackfin or something :P
[18:24] <Laurenceb> or... hardware state estimator on a spartan 3 :P
[18:24] Action: Laurenceb is planning to get a spartan3 eval board
[18:24] <fuzzylugnuts> laters folks
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[18:25] <Ei5GTB_> hmm, wow, makes me realise how many microprocessors there are
[18:25] <Ei5GTB_> its not a job for an avr anyweay.... is it?
[18:25] <Laurenceb> no chance
[18:25] <edmoore> you could be *very* clever
[18:25] <edmoore> and do it
[18:25] <Laurenceb> but avr is pretty fast at floating point
[18:26] <edmoore> spending hours optimising the shit out of everything
[18:26] <edmoore> and *fixed* point implimentation of the state estimators
[18:26] <Laurenceb> maybe with fixed point
[18:26] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:26] <Laurenceb> but its not worth it
[18:26] <edmoore> i agree
[18:26] <edmoore> I have infront of me an xmos eval board
[18:26] <Laurenceb> even with ARM its not trivial
[18:26] <Laurenceb> xmos?
[18:26] <edmoore> now there's some serious potential for this thing
[18:27] <edmoore> 1600MIPS
[18:27] <edmoore> 10ns context switching
[18:27] <Laurenceb> sweet
[18:27] <edmoore> and programable hardware
[18:27] <Laurenceb> that shoul handle it
[18:27] <edmoore> i'm quite excited
[18:27] <Laurenceb> argggg
[18:27] Action: Laurenceb has tangled his thread
[18:28] <Ei5GTB_> 1600mips... how hard are those things to learn
[18:28] <Laurenceb> some people do this for fun wtf
[18:28] <edmoore> xmos.com
[18:28] <edmoore> it's a 4-core device
[18:28] <edmoore> 400mips per core
[18:28] <edmoore> and really very good interconnects between each core
[18:29] <Laurenceb> what compiler?
[18:29] <edmoore> so really the beauty is that you just attach every peripheral to an io line
[18:29] <edmoore> program the io line to be a uart or spi or whatever
[18:29] <edmoore> and blast everything on the cores
[18:29] <edmoore> no glue logic
[18:30] <edmoore> it runs warm though
[18:30] <Ei5GTB_> how would you guys recomend learning embedded programming?
[18:30] <edmoore> avrfreaks.com :)
[18:30] <edmoore> xmos is a different beast
[18:30] <edmoore> don't jump straight into it
[18:31] <Ei5GTB_> yea,i wanna get a sort of fairly comprehensive embedded knowledge first
[18:31] <edmoore> xmos is either the future or a flash in the pan. truthfully i don't care which - it's a very fun toy
[18:31] <Ei5GTB_> like, some people can write a programm for a chip using only the data sheet
[18:31] <Laurenceb> spartan 3 looks quite easy to use
[18:32] <Laurenceb> but thats an fpga
[18:32] <Ei5GTB_> fpga?
[18:32] <Laurenceb> field programmable gate array
[18:32] <Laurenceb> google it
[18:33] <Ei5GTB_> sounds fun
[18:33] <Laurenceb> I'm thinking of having a go with an open core on one of them
[18:34] <Ei5GTB_> im think ing of getting to grips with the atmega8 chip :P
[18:34] <Laurenceb> hehe
[18:34] Action: Laurenceb uses an atmega168 on his mini rogallo
[18:35] <Laurenceb> its using about 10% of the total clock cycles
[18:35] <Ei5GTB_> heh
[18:35] <Laurenceb> so its suprisingly powerful
[18:35] <Ei5GTB_> yea, i got as far as starting to use interups... and i got lost
[18:35] <Ei5GTB_> so i quit
[18:35] <Laurenceb> lol
[18:35] <Laurenceb> interrupts can get tricky
[18:36] <Laurenceb> I'm using semaphores to control data flow
[18:36] <Ei5GTB_> yea, i just didnt understand it
[18:37] <Ei5GTB_> my baisic C knowledge was no help
[18:37] <Ei5GTB_> C++ rather
[18:38] Action: Laurenceb just broke his thread
[18:38] <Ei5GTB_> like
[18:38] <Ei5GTB_> real thread
[18:38] <Laurenceb> maybe someone has a sewing machine :(
[18:38] <Ei5GTB_> or compujter thread
[18:39] <Laurenceb> real thread
[18:39] <Ei5GTB_> wow
[18:39] <Laurenceb> I'm trying to sew this stupid wing on
[18:39] <Ei5GTB_> right, ima gonna go get some food..
[18:39] <Ei5GTB_> when i come back i may decide to footer with interupts..
[18:42] Action: Laurenceb resorts to crappy cross stitching
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[18:57] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:08] <Ei5GTB_> howdy
[19:11] <jcoxon> hey Ei5GTB_
[19:11] <Ei5GTB_> how goes it
[19:12] <jcoxon> good thanks, you?
[19:13] <Ei5GTB_> not too bad
[19:13] <Ei5GTB_> just being obsessed
[19:13] <Ei5GTB_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17U5tepeeIA
[19:13] <Ei5GTB_> i now want to build one of those
[19:14] <Ei5GTB_> hence i need to get a good knowledge of embedded systems, so now im trying to figure out how to do interupts
[19:14] <jcoxon> :-D
[19:14] <jcoxon> very cool
[19:14] <jcoxon> step by step and you'll get there
[19:15] <Ei5GTB_> indeed
[19:15] <Laurenceb> Ei5GTB: are you in the UK?
[19:15] <Ei5GTB_> in the meantime i have to tend to all my other dam hobbies
[19:16] <Ei5GTB_> nope, N/W ireland
[19:16] <Laurenceb> ah nice place to live
[19:16] <Ei5GTB_> yea, spose not bad
[19:16] <Ei5GTB_> my town is full of idiots tho
[19:16] <Ei5GTB_> none of which have any interest in anything technical
[19:16] <Ei5GTB_> so it sucks at the same time
[19:21] <Laurenceb> yeah
[19:21] <Laurenceb> I just like the scenery round there
[19:23] <Ei5GTB_> haha, yea
[19:25] <Laurenceb> first seam finished XD
[19:26] <Laurenceb> only two more to go
[19:26] <Ei5GTB_> haah
[19:26] <Ei5GTB_> teach me embedded programming and ill sew for you
[19:27] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/general:code
[19:27] <Ei5GTB_> just cos im bored im gonna model up a uav in solid works :P
[19:27] <Laurenceb> theres a bunch of stuff there
[19:29] <Ei5GTB_> hmm, ool, cheers
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[19:59] <rjharrison> evening all
[20:01] <jcoxon> evening rjharrison
[20:01] <rjharrison> Hi jcoxon
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[20:17] <Ei5GTB_> anyone have any idea wher its best to have the cog on a quadcopter?
[20:19] <Ei5GTB_> jcoxon?
[20:19] <Ei5GTB_> im guessing marinally below the props
[20:22] <Laurenceb> its not that important
[20:22] <Laurenceb> its rather like a rocket
[20:22] <Laurenceb> only aerodynamic effects are less important
[20:22] <Laurenceb> as its flying slowly
[20:23] <Laurenceb> moment of inertia is important
[20:23] <Laurenceb> you mant that to be fairly small
[20:24] <Ei5GTB_> well, if the cog is way above the pouints of support..
[20:24] <Ei5GTB_> it will amplify any instability
[20:24] <Ei5GTB_> whereas cog being below it will dempen effects
[20:25] <Laurenceb> hmm
[20:25] <Ei5GTB_> but im wondering if it is below it, it may be too difficult to recify any instability
[20:25] <Laurenceb> I think thats more a moment of inertia effect here
[20:25] <Ei5GTB_> yea
[20:26] <Laurenceb> the thrust vector rotates with the body
[20:26] <Laurenceb> so you need to apply some moment using differential thrust to turn it back to vertical
[20:26] <Laurenceb> thats easier if the motors are further apart
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[20:27] <Ei5GTB_> yea, im thinking an 800mm erm... wingspan?
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[20:28] <Laurenceb> dunno
[20:28] <Laurenceb> I'm sure its fairly easy to build the frame and stuff
[20:28] <Ei5GTB_> ah, its just a quick sketch really.. its just that if i dont put somthing ionto my projects folder it will never get re-visited
[20:28] <Laurenceb> the control stuff is the hard part
[20:28] <Ei5GTB_> yea
[20:28] <Ei5GTB_> like, the commercial ones have a real smooth operation
[20:29] <Laurenceb> do you ust want rc?
[20:30] <Ei5GTB_> naw, i would like to be able to make it follow gps coords and that
[20:31] <Ei5GTB_> in my mind, the way i would do it, is make the flight controll computer first.. make so it accepts like... "go forward at X rate" commands
[20:31] <Ei5GTB_> so then later, i can build an rc part
[20:31] <Laurenceb> yeah
[20:31] <Ei5GTB_> and an aouto part
[20:31] <Ei5GTB_> auto*.
[20:31] <Ei5GTB_> rather than trying everything at once
[20:32] <Ei5GTB_> i was thinking aBOUT IT OVER DINNER..ffs
[20:32] <Laurenceb> you can use tower pro brushless controllers with hacked firmware running on an I2C bus
[20:32] <Laurenceb> to run the motors
[20:32] <Ei5GTB_> hmm, cool
[20:32] <Ei5GTB_> ill look em up
[20:32] <Ei5GTB_> what if you had a gyro at each of the props?
[20:32] <Laurenceb> but you need a powerful processor and state estimation
[20:32] <Laurenceb> that wont help you
[20:32] <Ei5GTB_> dam
[20:32] <Laurenceb> you need to know the roll pitch and yaw
[20:32] <Laurenceb> three gyros
[20:33] <Laurenceb> at the center of gravity
[20:33] <Ei5GTB_> yea, processor selection is my main worry..
[20:33] <Ei5GTB_> i dont know enough about it to select one properly..
[20:33] <Laurenceb> then probably an accel (3 axis) and a magnetometer
[20:33] <Laurenceb> then gps if you want it autonomous
[20:34] <Laurenceb> that would be my suggestion
[20:34] <Ei5GTB_> magnetometer..
[20:34] <Laurenceb> choice of micro is a pain...
[20:34] <Ei5GTB_> ah..
[20:35] <Laurenceb> sparkfun.com will sell everything
[20:35] <Laurenceb> mlx90609 gyros are good
[20:35] <Ei5GTB_> yea, i was at a college open day yesterday.. they had a par of glasses hooked to a camera, used a magnetometer to figure out yaw, and a gyro to figure pitch
[20:35] <Ei5GTB_> as you moved your head the camera moved
[20:35] <Ei5GTB_> real neat
[20:36] <Ei5GTB_> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8371
[20:36] <Ei5GTB_> those yokes?
[20:38] <Laurenceb> yeah
[20:38] <Laurenceb> very nice, I have a few
[20:38] <Ei5GTB_> cool
[20:38] <Ei5GTB_> what do you do with em?
[20:39] <Laurenceb> em?
[20:39] <Ei5GTB_> 'em*
[20:39] <Ei5GTB_> (them"
[20:39] <Laurenceb> theres one on my mini rogallo
[20:40] <Ei5GTB_> cool, is it autonomous?
[20:40] <Laurenceb> yep
[20:42] <Ei5GTB_> nice
[20:42] <Ei5GTB_> ill race it with my thing then sometime :P
[20:42] <Ei5GTB_> in about 2 years time!
[20:43] <Laurenceb> hmmm I'm not sure if this actually makes it harder, but I'd really like to make an IMU using a spartan3 with an open core and FPU
[20:43] <Laurenceb> http://www.siphec.com/item/XC3S400-TB.html that looks nice
[20:44] <Ei5GTB_> imu?
[20:44] <Laurenceb> inertial measurement unit
[20:44] <Ei5GTB_> aha
[20:44] <Ei5GTB_> hmm, use that for flight controll/
[20:45] <Ei5GTB_> ?
[20:45] <Laurenceb> yeah, it gives you your attitude
[20:48] <Ei5GTB_> i think the actual flight controll could nearly be done as a group..
[20:49] <Ei5GTB_> let me get up to speed for a few months first tho :P
[20:49] <Ei5GTB_> dont wanna leech
[20:49] <Laurenceb> it would be a good thing to do as a joint project
[20:49] <Ei5GTB_> yea
[20:50] <Ei5GTB_> only thing about an imu, how would you combat acumulatoed error?
[20:50] <Ei5GTB_> no point it thinking its level, and it flying into a tree
[20:50] <Ei5GTB_> :P
[20:50] <Ei5GTB_> spose it would have to be coupled with acceleromters
[20:50] <Ei5GTB_> shit, the deeper you think, the harder it seems
[20:52] <Laurenceb> well
[20:52] <Laurenceb> you use 3 axis accels, 3 gyro axes, and 3 magneto axes
[20:52] <Laurenceb> then you can get attitude
[20:52] <Laurenceb> then if you also use a decent gps you can get position velocity and acceleration
[20:53] <Ei5GTB_> yea,m youll need one of those 5hz yokes
[20:54] <Ei5GTB_> still tho.. i never like to rely on gps 100% it can fluctuate
[20:54] <Laurenceb> I'm not convinced that you need a 5Hz gps
[20:54] <Laurenceb> accels are pretty good
[20:55] <Laurenceb> and the higher the gps update rate, the more noisy it becomes
[20:57] <Laurenceb> edmoore would not agree :P
[20:59] <Ei5GTB_> haha
[21:00] <Ei5GTB_> yea, i suppose i needa get some accels, and gros, and magentometers... and just feed them into the computer, and look at their values
[21:00] <Ei5GTB_> to convince myself :P
[21:04] <Ei5GTB_> now i must go watch a film..
[21:04] <Ei5GTB_> thanks for all the info
[21:48] natrium42 (n=alexei@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc:
[21:50] jcoxon (n=jcoxon@host86-163-198-244.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) left irc: "Leaving"
[21:58] Hiena (n=Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) left irc: "-=Halt! Hammerzeit!=-"
[23:38] <Laurenceb> 2.5 seams done :D
[23:44] <Ei5GTB_> woo!
[23:44] <Ei5GTB_> you hardly know how to use solidworks?
[23:44] <Laurenceb> correct
[23:45] <Laurenceb> well more correctly I dont have a clue
[23:45] <Ei5GTB_> woo! how would i sketch on a... on the side of a cylender
[23:45] <Ei5GTB_> ah..
[23:45] <Ei5GTB_> dang
[23:45] <Laurenceb> "you hardly know"
[23:45] <Ei5GTB_> yea, i get it..
[23:45] <Laurenceb> :P
[23:46] <Ei5GTB_> it great for designing your payloads and all that
[23:46] <Laurenceb> I've used povray
[23:46] <Ei5GTB_> you can tell it the mass of materials.. it figures out cog and all that stuf
[23:46] <Ei5GTB_> then i e-mail it to the college and they can have it "3d printed" in plastic
[23:46] <Laurenceb> nice
[23:47] <Laurenceb> are yooou a student?
[23:47] <Ei5GTB_> you wanna see the printer they have..
[23:47] <Ei5GTB_> gonna be next year
[23:47] <Ei5GTB_> or just bang it out on one of the cnc lathes
[23:47] <Laurenceb> where?
[23:47] <Ei5GTB_> letterkenny
[23:49] <Laurenceb> nice area
[23:49] <Ei5GTB_> yea
[23:49] Action: Laurenceb would like to emigrate
[23:49] <Ei5GTB_> its a great coledge too, spent 1.5 million last year
[23:50] <Ei5GTB_> you can come and sleep in my shack :P:
[23:50] <Ei5GTB_> http://www.paulsnet.org/shack/lights_on/3.jpg
[23:51] <Laurenceb> nice setup
[23:52] <Ei5GTB_> gets me from a to b :P
[23:52] <Ei5GTB_> if you need a distraction, youve come to the right place
[23:54] <Laurenceb> lots of radio kit
[23:54] <Ei5GTB_> yea
[23:57] Action: Laurenceb decides to have some caffine before going back to a final stint of sewing
[23:59] <Ei5GTB_> haha
[23:59] <Ei5GTB_> iv watched a film, and engineerd the shell of a uav in the time it took you to sew
[00:00] --- Sun Nov 16 2008