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[00:09] <fergusnoble> hello
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[00:48] <natrium42> hello fergusnoble
[00:48] <fergusnoble> hi natrium42
[01:39] <Laurenceb> hi fergus
[01:39] <Laurenceb> what does no clean mean in relation to flux?
[01:40] <SpeedEvil> you don't need to clean it off.
[01:41] <SpeedEvil> Specifically, it is guaranteed over humidity and temperature and time, not to degrade the circuit.
[01:41] <SpeedEvil> The flipside is that it may not be quite as effective as a flux.
[01:41] <Laurenceb> I see
[01:47] Action: Laurenceb concludes that farnell is a crap place to buy flux
[01:51] <Laurenceb> and copper tape
[01:51] <Laurenceb> you can get it for 1/2 the price on ebay
[01:53] <SpeedEvil> But is the stuff you get on ebay good.
[01:53] <SpeedEvil> And guaranteed, and actually from who it says on the label.
[01:53] <Laurenceb> true
[01:55] <Laurenceb> I've just put together a farnell order for ALDIST
[01:56] <Laurenceb> just need to see if those bag sealers work, I've ordered one
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[10:00] <rjharrison> Moring all
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[10:32] <jcoxon> hey all
[10:38] <jcoxon> morning rjharrison
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[11:45] <rjharrison> Hi all
[11:46] <rjharrison> Just got my charts through from the CAA Northern & Southern England. I'm going to have a butchers and see what the largest west east line I can get a NOTAM for. Anythoughs on this from anyone.
[11:50] <rjharrison> In and out of meetings this morning so may delay response
[11:51] <jcoxon> ummmm, i'm not sure really
[11:51] <jcoxon> remember that we also don't really want to be landing into populated areas
[11:51] <jcoxon> and also the weather is better the further south
[11:51] <jcoxon> i therefore propse the Sahara :-D
[12:01] <jcoxon> bbl
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[12:59] <Laurenceb> hello folks
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[13:24] <Laurenceb> omg http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8889
[13:32] <Laurenceb> pity theres no connector for it
[13:33] <Laurenceb> also the UBX protocol looks like a pain
[13:35] <Laurenceb> theres no double stuffing described in the ublox pdf
[13:35] <Laurenceb> I dont get it
[13:41] <Laurenceb> it looks like each packet starts with a unique two byte sequence, but theres nothing to prevent that occuring in the data
[13:46] <Laurenceb> guess you could run a state machine that looks for a correct lenght packet
[13:46] <Laurenceb> but TSIP is nicer IMO
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> Are the packets of fixed lenghts?
[14:24] <naxxfish> http://www.koders.com/c/fidFFFD7F8BE5966D295BB0D17B2FBAAD411C1A3F58.aspx <-- clues :p
[14:24] <Laurenceb> no
[14:27] <Laurenceb> ah thanks
[14:27] <Laurenceb> ok... looks like it compares against the lenght field
[14:27] <Laurenceb> then throws an error if its the wrong lenght
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[14:49] <Laurenceb> hmm looks like I was sending an obsolete packet to configure the lassen iq
[14:49] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:49] <Laurenceb> I used a TSIP reference from 1999 woops
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> Hope that's it
[14:50] <Laurenceb> unfortunately the packet I should use is 24 byes longer
[14:50] <Laurenceb> grrr here goes my flash
[14:59] <Laurenceb> will have to wait till this evening
[14:59] <Laurenceb> I'm at work atm
[15:03] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:parafoil_tsip <-- configuration is that monstrosity at the top of the page
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[15:09] Action: SpeedEvil ponders auto-tuning.
[15:09] <Laurenceb> auto tuning of control loops?
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> Though that goes to meta-constants, so it's not of much help.
[15:10] <Laurenceb> what are you talking about?
[15:10] <SpeedEvil> auto-tuning of control loops.
[15:16] <Laurenceb> well if you assume its linear.... the theory isnt *too* hard
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
[15:16] <Laurenceb> of course there is always the trial and error approach
[15:17] <Laurenceb> i.e. devise a stability criterion, then continuously tweak in flight
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> Find as long as altitude is high.
[15:17] <Laurenceb> which would probably cope with nonlinear stuff quite well
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> And the airframe can't flat-spin.
[15:18] <Laurenceb> as long as it was initialised correctly
[15:18] <Laurenceb> which is the tricky bit
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[15:38] <Laurenceb> hmmm http://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Sensors/Imaging/TCM8240MD_E150405_REV13.pdf
[15:38] <Laurenceb> wonder if I could stick one of those on my next radio board
[15:39] <Laurenceb> and have SSTV :P
[15:55] <SpeedEvil> You need to read that at abvout 8 meg/second pixel rate.
[15:55] <SpeedEvil> And there isn't any datasheet.
[15:55] <Laurenceb> thats the datasheet
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> Right.
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> It lists about 200 registers.
[15:56] <Laurenceb> but yeah it needs a fast clock signal
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> Where is the details of what register does what, and what the default value should be?
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> not just the clock, you need to read the whole frame in one in under 30ms or so
[15:56] <Laurenceb> the one for the lower res version is a bit clearer
[15:57] <Laurenceb> it would really need a ARM
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> with >1 meg RAM
[15:58] <Laurenceb> not if you go to low res
[15:58] <Laurenceb> which is all I'd need
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> you still need to read out the whole frame at >8msps
[15:59] <Laurenceb> yeah, a few tens of KB#
[16:07] <gordonjcp> uhm
[16:08] <gordonjcp> a single colour plane of 320x240 is 75kB
[16:08] <gordonjcp> assuming 8 bits per plane
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> gordonjcp: these cameras are less flexible than that typically
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> gordonjcp: you can only specifiy a limited number of output formats, and you have to read it out at 8MHz (typ), even though each 8 pixels may be the same as it's in 8*8 binned mode
[16:12] <gordonjcp> correct
[16:12] <gordonjcp> total pita to interface
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[16:18] <Laurenceb> rjharrison: I dont see what the problem is with this http://www.dpieshop.com/trimble-iqsq-data-cable-to-flying-lead-way-125mm-pitch-p-238.html
[16:24] <rjharrison> When you connect the lead pin one should be red. If you do this the cable goes the wrong way from the connector. Either connect pin 10 as red or tun the cable around the wrong way.
[16:24] <rjharrison> turn
[16:24] <Laurenceb> oh I see
[16:24] <Laurenceb> it has red at one end
[16:24] <Laurenceb> yueah, I'd never trust things like that
[16:24] <rjharrison> Just don't do the obviouse or the IQ is kaput
[16:25] <Laurenceb> just treat it like something you got out of a skip
[16:25] <Laurenceb> test it and dont assume anything :P
[16:25] <rjharrison> Dimond sourced the leeds from else ware or had them made up somewhere and apprently the connector should have been connected the other way around.
[16:25] <rjharrison> where
[16:26] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: and sell it on ebay as new-old-stock
[16:29] <Laurenceb> did you complain?
[16:35] <Laurenceb> http://www.dpieshop.com/trimble-miniature-33v-unpackaged-gps-antenna-hfl-connector-p-234.html
[16:35] <Laurenceb> ^ they say it needs a ground plane - I've got the sparkfun one working fine with no ground plane
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> 'needs'
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> radiation pattern and sensitivity may change.
[16:37] <Laurenceb> true
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> But typically in an open-air app, with modern hardware, tehre is _enourmous_ margin
[16:37] <Laurenceb> but I've got 9 sats
[16:37] <Laurenceb> so can hardly complain
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[16:45] <gordonjcp> ground planes aren't as important for receiving
[16:45] <gordonjcp> for transmitting they are essential
[16:45] <gordonjcp> well, for certain types of antenna
[16:46] <natrium42> long wire?
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[16:49] <gordonjcp> long wires aren't really that great for transmitting
[16:49] <gordonjcp> unless they happen to be long enough to be 1/4 wavelength
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[17:13] <natrium42> hi
[17:13] <Laurenceb> hello
[17:13] <Laurenceb> say have you got the lassen iq working?
[17:14] <Laurenceb> I'm trying to work out why I'm missing 0x6D packets
[17:14] <natrium42> it worked for me
[17:15] <natrium42> what are 0x6d packets?
[17:15] <Laurenceb> how did you detect new updates?
[17:15] <Laurenceb> well, according to the datasheet, they are broadcast at 1Hz
[17:15] <Laurenceb> or after each new position calculation
[17:16] <Laurenceb> howe do you detect position updates?
[17:16] <natrium42> are you using the binary protocol?
[17:16] <natrium42> i only used NMEA
[17:16] <Laurenceb> yeah, TSIP
[17:16] <Laurenceb> oh
[17:17] <Laurenceb> after it first gets a lock, there is a pariod of about 90 seconds where the 0x6D output is intermittent
[17:17] <Laurenceb> i.e. it stops for periods of up to 10s
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[19:43] <SpeedEvil> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7686530.stm
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> cool.
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> triboluminescant x-rays.
[19:46] <Hiena> Scotch-tape xray?
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> yep.
[19:47] <Hiena> Here has an envelopes, which drops blue arches when you opens at the glued area.
[19:48] <SpeedEvil> You only get x-rays in a vacuum apparantly.
[19:49] <jnd> Quarks never occur isolated; they are always found combined in bound systems of two, three, five, or seventeen quarks and antiquarks. Such composite systems are held together by exchanging massless force carriers such as gluons, supergluons, pastyons, scotchtapions, or by the omnipotent power of our Lord Jesus Christ. As of 2008, it has yet to be confirmed if Antijesus also plays a role here.
[19:50] <jnd> :p
[19:51] <jnd> I like scotchtapions
[19:51] <Hiena> Kind of remember my trouble scale.
[19:54] <Hiena> The basic is 1 Oooops which is 1*10-3 Holy shit...
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[19:55] <natrium42> quiet, he's here
[19:55] <Laurenceb> hello
[19:55] <Laurenceb> eh
[19:55] <natrium42> hi :)
[19:55] <Laurenceb> a joke?
[19:56] <Laurenceb> or a devious secret....
[19:56] <Laurenceb> I can always look at the logs :P
[19:57] <natrium42> just fooling with you :)
[19:57] <natrium42> did you find the bug in your TSIP code
[19:57] <natrium42> ?
[19:57] <Laurenceb> not yet
[19:57] <Laurenceb> I'm not sure its my code
[19:57] <Laurenceb> it would appear to be the module
[19:58] <natrium42> yeah, blame the other guy
[19:58] <natrium42> "HOW CAN IT BE *MY* CODE?!?"
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> is back-side hyphenated?
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> oops - mischan
[19:58] <natrium42> 4chan?
[19:58] <natrium42> is on Rizon
[19:59] <SpeedEvil> actually no - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Jesus - I was wondering if the hyphenation was correct
[19:59] <Laurenceb> natrium42: the way its tied up with when the module gets a lock
[19:59] <Laurenceb> cant see how that could happen from my code
[20:00] <Laurenceb> arg theres only 148 bytes of flash spare now :(
[20:00] <Laurenceb> I wanted to add I2C eeprom and ground control in there
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: forth interpreter using I2C RAM
[20:01] <natrium42> haha
[20:01] Action: natrium42 would go with a larger chip
[20:01] <Laurenceb> rofl
[20:01] <Laurenceb> yeah
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> Or that.
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> Or start examining the emitted code to optimise your C.
[20:02] <Laurenceb> but theres no larger avr in dip
[20:02] <natrium42> the dark forth has a strong influence on the weak mind
[20:02] <Laurenceb> yeah, I'd probably be best writing my own printf function
[20:03] <Laurenceb> but it has to print floats... itoa ?
[20:03] <natrium42> where do you print them to?
[20:03] <natrium42> just as debug info?
[20:03] <natrium42> if yes, could just print hex
[20:03] <Laurenceb> no, to the radio
[20:04] <natrium42> ah, any reason to use ascii?
[20:04] <Laurenceb> so I want the radio link to use ascii
[20:04] <natrium42> could still use hex :P
[20:04] <Laurenceb> yess
[20:04] <natrium42> and do the conversion on the ground
[20:04] <Laurenceb> that would be ideal
[20:04] <natrium42> so do it
[20:04] <SpeedEvil> Or fixed point
[20:04] <natrium42> float and micro don't mix well
[20:04] <Laurenceb> but I'm not 100% sure how well it would work with truetty
[20:04] <SpeedEvil> A circle is 65536
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[20:05] <Laurenceb> hmm what do you think?
[20:06] <Laurenceb> I've never played with truetty properly wrt logfiles
[20:06] <SpeedEvil> what floats are you emitting?
[20:06] <Laurenceb> latitude,longitude,altitude, heading,target, filtered target, turn rate
[20:07] <Laurenceb> battery voltage, internal temperature
[20:09] <SpeedEvil> where's the code that prints this?
[20:09] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:parafoil_tsip
[20:10] <Laurenceb> in void dataprint(u08 flight_status,gps_type * gps)
[20:10] <SpeedEvil> Some thoughts - not read the code
[20:11] <natrium42> hehe --- wiggleservo()
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> If you can redefine 'flight status' so that it's literally <> or - - then you don't need those several lines of code
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> you just print the flight status byte directly
[20:12] <Laurenceb> hmm good point
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> What format does the lat/lon come out of the GPS as?
[20:16] <Laurenceb> radians
[20:17] <SpeedEvil> If you can pick the datatype right - }//all to keep us in +-180 degree range
[20:17] <SpeedEvil> can fall out - as when you add 1/2 radian, it just overflows 'right'
[20:19] <Laurenceb> hmm interesting
[20:19] <Laurenceb> yeah I have that problem in loads of places
[20:20] <Laurenceb> but you must mean PI radians
[20:20] <SpeedEvil> Sorry - trying to watch TV and do other stuff while debugging, and not doing any well :)
[20:21] <SpeedEvil> There is stupid stuff like saving a couple of bytes by going "awaiting Lock:" to "locking:"
[20:23] <Laurenceb> yeah
[20:23] <Laurenceb> but you know your running out of ideas when it comes to that
[20:24] <SpeedEvil> Fundamentally you need to work out how many bytes is going to each function, and look there.
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[21:04] <rjharrison> Evening all
[21:05] <jcoxon> evening rjharrison
[21:05] <rjharrison> jcoxon any thoughts on launch dates
[21:05] <rjharrison> I'm getting restless allready
[21:05] <jcoxon> perhaps next weekend
[21:05] <rjharrison> :)
[21:05] <rjharrison> Oooho
[21:05] <rjharrison> 1/2 nov
[21:06] <rjharrison> Out of interest what freq are you going out on?
[21:06] <jcoxon> hmmm depends
[21:06] <rjharrison> :)
[21:07] <jcoxon> i should have by then both a .650 and .075 module
[21:07] <rjharrison> On your parcel arrivin?
[21:07] <rjharrison> srriving
[21:07] <jcoxon> nah need to phone royal mail tomorrow
[21:07] <rjharrison> shit I can't type. You get the idea
[21:08] <jcoxon> that said:
[21:09] <jcoxon> there are no repeaters on 434.650 in 100km of cambridge
[21:09] <rjharrison> I tried radiometrix for the .245 freq and they need a minimum order quantity of 100
[21:10] <jcoxon> actually i take that back
[21:10] <jcoxon> there are quite a few with an input freq of 434.650
[21:10] <rjharrison> That's why you get away with it. I'm going up on .075 on the next mission with a new callsign SURACI
[21:10] <rjharrison> Will I get away with that :)
[21:11] <jcoxon> but that shouldn't trigger the repeater as we aren't broadcasting
[21:11] <jcoxon> the correct tones
[21:11] <rjharrison> Having done a bit of reading myself it looks like we are all bound to not cause interferance
[21:11] <jcoxon> http://flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/sets/72157608304723322/
[21:12] <rjharrison> v nice sir
[21:12] <rjharrison> I like the uv filter have you done that before?
[21:12] <jcoxon> i haven't, others have :-)
[21:13] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: your latest payload?
[21:13] <jcoxon> Peg VI
[21:13] <jcoxon> yup
[21:13] <Laurenceb> nice work
[21:13] <Laurenceb> telit powered?
[21:13] <jcoxon> no gumsti
[21:13] <jcoxon> x
[21:14] <jcoxon> but with a telit GSM module
[21:14] <jcoxon> its the sstv payload
[21:14] <Laurenceb> I see
[21:14] <Laurenceb> ah cool
[21:14] <Laurenceb> ssb sstv?
[21:14] <jcoxon> yup
[21:14] <jcoxon> it can do both but, going for sstv
[21:15] <jcoxon> ssb*
[21:15] <jcoxon> (it can do fm and ssb)
[21:16] <rjharrison> Is the usb cable to sync pics and video?
[21:17] <Laurenceb> apparently there could be no more sirf
[21:17] <rjharrison> FGN
[21:17] <jcoxon> the usb cable goes into the gumstix
[21:17] <Laurenceb> they infringed broadcoms patents
[21:17] <jcoxon> and the gumstix triggers the camera and downloads the image
[21:17] <jcoxon> which is then transmitted
[21:17] <rjharrison> And they use OR don't they
[21:17] <rjharrison> Woof
[21:18] <Laurenceb> yeah, we've found sirf3 is no good
[21:18] <rjharrison> BTW FGN = @ucking Good News
[21:18] <Laurenceb> how so
[21:19] <rjharrison> Well that measn all the devs are going to have to use another chip. If they go for a BLOX or LASSEN we may have a few more toys to play with
[21:19] <Laurenceb> maybe
[21:19] <Laurenceb> but its just daft
[21:20] <rjharrison> Bit of a long shot
[21:20] <Laurenceb> the whole concept of patent law is outdated
[21:20] <rjharrison> Don't tell the patent agents I work for. I need a job :)
[21:20] <Laurenceb> lol
[21:21] <Laurenceb> it may have worked in victorian times
[21:21] <Laurenceb> but now it just reduces efficiency
[21:22] <Laurenceb> still, many companies realise this which is partly why lots of private research is published
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> I disagree.
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> The way the patent system is currently implemented is broken.
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[21:23] <Laurenceb> http://www.eetimes.com/news/design/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=210900044
[21:24] <SpeedEvil> For example, I saw a recent patent for SAW displays (surface accoustic wave).
[21:24] <Laurenceb> sure
[21:24] <SpeedEvil> It covered how to make a gasket that diddn't absorb sound.
[21:24] <Laurenceb> yeah that sounds daft
[21:24] <SpeedEvil> And was about the third thing you'd try in the workshop.
[21:25] <Laurenceb> just the fact that there are laws to control what I can make is an infringement of my human rights IMO
[21:26] <Laurenceb> "no you cant make it like that" wtf
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> Coincidentally, I found prior art on a scribble in my attic the other day.
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> Which was a pistonless cyclic pump for rocket propellant.
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> That I later found patented.
[21:28] <rjharrison> jcoxon: Nice use of the Hot wire cutter
[21:29] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: what power supply do you use for hot wire cutting?
[21:29] <Laurenceb> or is it intellectual property? :D
[21:30] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, regulated switch mode supply
[21:30] <jcoxon> 4.5v
[21:30] <Laurenceb> cool, how long is the wire?
[21:30] <jcoxon> 10cm
[21:30] <jcoxon> its not very efficient but does the job
[21:30] <rjharrison> Come on jc let us have a look at the cutter :P
[21:30] <jcoxon> rjharrison, no chance
[21:30] <rjharrison> lol
[21:31] <rjharrison> Hey I showed you mine
[21:31] <jcoxon> haha
[21:32] <rjharrison> Can you use a guide with yours I found having a wide berth from the support arm allowed me to put a wooden guide rail in which gave me very straight cuts
[21:32] <jcoxon> yeah, though i wasn't too fussed about long straight lines :-p
[21:32] <rjharrison> So I see :)
[21:33] <SpeedEvil> I found a really long wire worked well for me.
[21:33] <SpeedEvil> (2.5m)
[21:34] <jcoxon> need to insulate my radio now
[21:34] <rjharrison> jcoxon lots of compartments. I kept a good beathing psace between mine to share any heat out as much as possible. I have a sneaky suspission I kept to about +5 deg C in there but I can't prove it
[21:35] Action: SpeedEvil ponders.
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> Little bags of water would work quite well as heaters.
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> 200KJ/Kg
[21:35] <rjharrison> ? Isn't the radio inside?
[21:35] <jcoxon> yup
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> (at 0C)
[21:35] <jcoxon> but i'm going to insulate it seperately as well
[21:36] <rjharrison> Cool. Did you see the inside of my box. I didn't do any infill. Just 25mm box the insides were free appart from 2 wedges for the battery
[21:38] <rjharrison> This is how it went up the camera just sat on the blue wedge at the bottom and I closed the lid. Just FYI really I didn't have a clue waht I was doing :) http://www.robertharrison.org/files/icarus/IMG_6042.JPG
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> The power of idiocy!
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> Wins again!
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> Just shows that you don't need everything perfect
[21:40] <rjharrison> There was no ocilator on the avr either save the internal one so I guess it can't have got too cold inthere
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> Oh - one neat thing I've done in the past.
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> You can make dovetail joints with teh hotwire cutter
[21:40] <rjharrison> Folded you underware?
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> Never!
[21:41] <rjharrison> Somthing to do with sex and that comes to mind
[21:41] <rjharrison> I have trid dove tails in wood work and they were naff. Though my granddad was cool at them
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> Also - rather easier, you can do 'jigsaw' corners
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> which cheats, and runs the join down the whole length
[21:43] <Xenion> rjharrison, is this styropor ? in the pciture above ?
[21:43] <Xenion> how much was the weight of your payload ?
[21:43] <rjharrison> 550g
[21:43] <Xenion> real ?!
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> what's the cam?
[21:43] <Xenion> with camera and battery ?!
[21:44] <rjharrison> Yep
[21:44] <rjharrison> thebox was just 216g I have just weighed it
[21:44] <Xenion> damn that isn't much at all
[21:45] <Xenion> i've calculated mine to be at 1.5
[21:45] <Xenion> hum
[21:45] <rjharrison> I'm not sure what the box is made of its like the insulation you get from b&q
[21:45] <Xenion> b&q ?
[21:45] <rjharrison> from the craft shop. 3quid for a bigish sheet
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Xenion: DIY store
[21:45] <rjharrison> sorry
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison: white and 'bubbly' ?
[21:45] <Xenion> DIY stud for Do it yourself right ?
[21:45] <rjharrison> NO not expanded polystyreen
[21:46] <rjharrison> We'll not the white stuff
[21:46] <Xenion> rjharrison, i see
[21:46] <rjharrison> This is yellow
[21:46] <rjharrison> 25mm
[21:46] <rjharrison> With ductape every where
[21:46] <SpeedEvil> rjharrison: sounds like PIR foam - very toxic if you cut it
[21:46] <SpeedEvil> hotwire cut it
[21:46] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, toxic, .. cool
[21:46] <Xenion> :D
[21:46] <rjharrison> It did smell a bit
[21:46] <rjharrison> I just kept out the way
[21:46] <rjharrison> In the kitcen
[21:46] <Laurenceb> hmm hotwire cutting works
[21:47] <Laurenceb> I've jsut been trying
[21:47] <Laurenceb> but my supply is struggling
[21:47] <rjharrison> battery?
[21:47] <Laurenceb> I can only heat about 10cmof wire
[21:47] <rjharrison> I used a tf
[21:47] <Laurenceb> no, 1.5A 3v
[21:47] <Laurenceb> tf yes
[21:48] <rjharrison> 5v 3.8 amps
[21:48] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, mine does 4.5v at 2.5A
[21:48] <Xenion> rjharrison, did you use any heat source ?
[21:48] <Xenion> <- my problem is the "cold"
[21:48] <rjharrison> on ~25cm if wire
[21:48] <Xenion> sorry for my poor englisch skills
[21:49] <Xenion> i just need to heat up my payload a bit
[21:49] <Xenion> but im uncertain how to to it without setting everything in flames ^^
[21:49] <jcoxon> Xenion, if you insulate well you probably won't need a heat source
[21:49] <jcoxon> whats your microcontroller?
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> Xenion: 100g of water will provide 20KJ of heat when it freezes.
[21:49] <rjharrison> No not onboard. I have a swtching regulator to go from 9v to 5v and that give off some nice heat
[21:49] <Xenion> jcoxon, i'm using 2 layer of MLI ( multi layer insulents ) the're pretty good but i wan't more
[21:49] <rjharrison> Warm to the touch. Would gess about 50 - 55 deg c
[21:50] <Laurenceb> omgf http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6417801.html
[21:50] <Laurenceb> thats what sirf infringed
[21:50] <Laurenceb> its just stupid
[21:50] <Xenion> rjharrison, i see
[21:50] <jcoxon> Xenion, for me the gumstix produces quite a lot of heat
[21:50] <Xenion> rjharrison, i'm using the foxboard ( www.acmesystems.it ) and the so called beagleboard ( www.beagleboard.org )
[21:51] <rjharrison> Heat is cool for HAB
[21:51] <jcoxon> oh that'll produce tones of heat
[21:51] <jcoxon> tonnes*
[21:51] <Xenion> my point is that my ballon will have to hold height for some time
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> MLI isn't unfortuantely quite in its element at 30Km.
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> 300Km, and it gets _lots_ better
[21:51] <Xenion> my project isn't about getting pictures ( that's a cool bonus ) im doing it for scientific research tests
[21:51] <Xenion> :-)
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> what're you sampling?
[21:52] <Xenion> sampling ?
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> measuring
[21:52] <Xenion> ah i see
[21:52] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, it's about stable long range communication and some sensor tests
[21:52] <rjharrison> BTW everyone I just want to say thanks for all the help over the last 6 months. I had a really lucky forst filght and I wouldn't have done it without the various inputs from you all
[21:52] <rjharrison> first
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> :)
[21:53] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, i'm doing some space related projects and need this data :-)
[21:53] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[21:53] Action: rjharrison getting sentimental
[21:53] Action: SpeedEvil wants to do space stuff, but needs funding.
[21:53] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, i'Ve got sponsors and funding
[21:53] <Xenion> but not very much
[21:53] <Xenion> barely enough
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> My ambition is orbital at under 5K/launch for 1Kg payload.
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[21:54] <Xenion> .. as usual in life :D
[21:54] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, earth based launch == very expensive ...
[21:54] <Xenion> very very very ...
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> It has historically been yes.
[21:54] <Xenion> did i say very ?
[21:54] <Xenion> :D
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> However, because it has historically been at 1K-10K$/Kg from 1960 to now doesn't mean that's a law of physics.
[21:55] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, the goal of my project ( i'm doing it with a lot of other people ) is to provide more cheap ways to beat the 100km mark
[21:55] <SpeedEvil> The fuel cost (for the main tank) of shuttle for example is a tiny fraction of 1% of the cost of launching the vehicle.
[21:55] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, since kennedy in 1962 the U.S. lost nearly all interest in space
[21:56] <SpeedEvil> I don't know if I've done this rant here.
[21:56] <SpeedEvil> But my hypothesis is that rocket companies (in the US) aren't interested in making rockets. They are interested in getting dollars.
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> This means they'd much rather make 1 rocket at $100m per, than 10 at $10m per
[21:57] <Xenion> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/We_choose_to_go_to_the_moon @ SpeedEvil
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> And NASA is complicit in this by the way they specify stuff.
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> They are still specifying stuff as if their goal is 'waste nothing but mass'
[21:57] <Xenion> NASA @ work im dealing with people from both ESA and NASA
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[21:58] <SpeedEvil> Whereas the incremental fuel and steel cost for extra mass isn't actually that huge.
[21:58] <Xenion> ESA and NASA are both very ( i dont know the exact englisch phrase ) burocratic agencys
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> that works.
[21:58] <Xenion> one scientiss once said to me
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> Ass-hatted too.
[21:59] <Xenion> "for a scientific project at the ESA you need 5 persons, 4 lawyer or clerks which do the paperwork and 1 scientists which does the research ..."
[22:00] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, one example of quite a good rocket is the in german so called V2 Engine or in englisch A4 rocket. It is very efficient and simple to build but not very good at manouvering
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> ISP is quite bad.
[22:00] <Xenion> ISP ?
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> Specific impulse
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> newton-seconds per kilogram of fuel
[22:01] <Xenion> what does the I stand for
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> impulse
[22:01] <Xenion> hm
[22:01] <Xenion> sound not right ISP
[22:01] <Xenion> but k
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> It's the term that's used.
[22:01] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, i know what you mean
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> It's basically exhaust velocity in funny units.
[22:01] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, k
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> ISP=270, exhaust velocity = 270*9.8m/s
[22:03] <Xenion> i see
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[22:03] <SpeedEvil> I have plans for a multi stage (3 or 4) H2O2/kerosene rocket, where each stage is 1:4 payload and stage. The payload can either be another stage or a payload. The payload can be a parafoil, to return the stage to base after testing.
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[22:03] <SpeedEvil> So you test each stage before flight.
[22:04] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, with stage you mean you burn that section out and throw it off ?
[22:04] <SpeedEvil> yes
[22:04] <Xenion> hum
[22:05] <Xenion> i hate the idea to pollute space in that way
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> Don't.
[22:05] <Xenion> i know it "burns" away ...
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> no stages except the last get to orbit.
[22:05] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.dsspropulsion.com/products.htm
[22:05] <Xenion> yeah i know
[22:05] <Xenion> but using this "stage" design has a lot of potential hickups
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> the first one falls back mostly intact, teh second one melts a bit, the third vapourises cleanly.
[22:05] <Xenion> things that could go wrong
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> Xenion: sure - that's why I allocated a whole half a stage for 'oopses'.
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> It adds _lots_ of flexibility though.
[22:06] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, that's the no 1 problem of the NASA
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[22:06] <Xenion> they really do have a lot of hickups
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> A single stage means that you're working on margins of 0.1%
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> 0.1% weight growth means that your payload goes from 1Kg to 100g - for example.
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[22:07] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, statistics says that when one stage has the propability to fail of 20% percent ... than 4 stages would have much more than 50%
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> Sure.
[22:07] <Xenion> it's not like 1/20
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> TEsting each stage 5* before flight though...
[22:07] <Xenion> hm
[22:08] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, we will definitly continue this discussion in the future ! i swear :D
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:08] <Xenion> it's great tot talk to someone who know what i mean ( or at least try to say in my humble englisch ^^ )
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> My basic idea is how simple and cheap can it be.
[22:08] <Xenion> but right now i have to go to sleep .. im up since 4 AM ...
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> your english is better than my ?german?
[22:09] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, yes regarding cheap i've got to the V2 rocket
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[22:09] <Xenion> SpeedEvil, i'm good at speaking englisch but writing in IRC is different .. especially when it comes to scientific stuff
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[22:10] <Xenion> IRC is like first write and then think and correct ^^
[22:10] <Xenion> ok thank you very much :D
[22:10] <Xenion> good night folks, sleep well and have some nice dreams !
[22:10] <fuzzylugnuts> always do
[22:10] <fuzzylugnuts> : )
[22:10] <Laurenceb> cya
[22:11] <Laurenceb> its 4am in germany?
[22:11] <Xenion> nope
[22:11] <Xenion> it's 11:11 PM
[22:11] <Xenion> but i've got up 4AM this morning ....
[22:11] <Laurenceb> oh sorry I misread
[22:11] <Xenion> an got to work at 6 AM .....
[22:11] <Xenion> so long day
[22:11] <Laurenceb> only an hour off from the UK then
[22:11] <Laurenceb> :P
[22:12] <Xenion> Laurenceb, i've been to the UK just 2 weeks ago :D
[22:12] <Xenion> ... argh .. offline .. now !
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[22:13] <fuzzylugnuts> SpeedEvil: did you see that link I posted?
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[22:21] <SpeedEvil> fuzzylugnuts: sorry - no - wasking up
[22:22] <fuzzylugnuts> ah ok
[22:22] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.dsspropulsion.com/products.htm
[22:22] <fuzzylugnuts> buddy of mine sent that to me last night
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> 22:05 <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.dsspropulsion.com/products.htm
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> that one?
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> oh
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> Interesting, but seems ratehr sparse on details.
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[22:25] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah, for reasons left to the imagination
[22:25] <fuzzylugnuts> I think its DOD stuff.
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[22:28] <SpeedEvil> It seems to be a marginal propellant, with electric boosting
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> so that it self-extinguishes
[22:28] <fuzzylugnuts> could be
[22:28] <fuzzylugnuts> just thought it was neat
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
[22:29] <SpeedEvil> I tend to prefer things I can actually buy or build.
[22:29] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, its horribly teasing to see cool stuff like that
[22:29] <SpeedEvil> One of the things that stalled my rocket was delaying waiting for a new part from TI that was coming out 'soon'. That hasn't really.
[22:29] <fuzzylugnuts> ah, lame
[22:29] <SpeedEvil> (impactron CCD, solid state image intensified)
[22:30] <fuzzylugnuts> tiny?
[22:30] <SpeedEvil> Not really
[22:30] <SpeedEvil> just that it was a couple of orders of magnitude more sensitive than common cameras.
[22:30] <fuzzylugnuts> I don't know much about it
[22:30] <fuzzylugnuts> ahh ok
[22:30] <fuzzylugnuts> color/
[22:30] <fuzzylugnuts> ?
[22:30] <SpeedEvil> Not the one I was interested in.
[22:31] <fuzzylugnuts> I know things in terms of lux, does that apply here?
[22:31] <SpeedEvil> yes - IIRC on the order of 0.3 lux for a conventional camera, and 0.001 lux or so for this one
[22:31] <fuzzylugnuts> oh cool!
[22:32] <SpeedEvil> it had a noise of a couple of photons per pixel, vs a couple of hundred
[22:32] <SpeedEvil> photoelectrons
[22:32] <fuzzylugnuts> *nodnods* very cool.
[22:34] <edmoore> fuzzylugnuts: fnoble was after you
[22:34] <edmoore> something about postage - do you want his email addy?
[22:34] <fuzzylugnuts> ummm
[22:34] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah please
[22:34] <edmoore> f n 2 1 7
[22:34] <edmoore> at
[22:34] <edmoore> cam
[22:34] <edmoore> dot
[22:34] <edmoore> ac
[22:34] <edmoore> dot
[22:34] <edmoore> uk
[22:34] <fuzzylugnuts> lol
[22:34] <fuzzylugnuts> sorry : )
[22:35] Action: SpeedEvil ponders.
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> I wonder how many people that'd work for.
[22:35] <edmoore> what would work for?
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> I can see if you put a stamp with that address on it might actually get tehre.
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> As it'd hit cam.ac.uk and possibly get routed by a human with a clue.
[22:35] <fuzzylugnuts> did he get his box?
[22:36] <edmoore> i have no idea, I just half heard something
[22:36] <edmoore> he mentioned it briefly
[22:36] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[22:36] <fuzzylugnuts> I hope it went through.
[22:36] <fuzzylugnuts> there is a fairly erotic PMT and plastic scintillator in it.
[22:40] <fuzzylugnuts> hey cool. I can fit a condom on my head.
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> fuzzylugnuts: I was interested in http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/about/fs23grc.html - for a similar role - though once in space.
[22:41] <fuzzylugnuts> wow
[22:41] <fuzzylugnuts> looks expensive
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> Sure.
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> But the principle is easy.
[22:42] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> Bar of propellant, arc across it, right-hand-rule
[22:42] <fuzzylugnuts> myep
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[22:58] <rjharrison> Back again
[22:58] <fuzzylugnuts> hey
[22:58] <fuzzylugnuts> how do you like your rig?
[22:58] <rjharrison> edmoore you guys have any plans for the next launch?
[22:58] <rjharrison> fuzzylugnuts. My radio?
[22:58] <rjharrison> Love it
[22:59] <fuzzylugnuts> great : )
[23:00] <edmoore> rjharrison: ish
[23:00] <edmoore> chanel 5 if we can
[23:00] <edmoore> in the next 2 weeks
[23:00] <edmoore> then teddy bears for schools
[23:00] <edmoore> then ZP
[23:00] <edmoore> ZP is really where its at, the rest is noise
[23:00] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah!
[23:00] <fuzzylugnuts> wheeee!
[23:00] <Laurenceb> teddies?
[23:01] Action: SpeedEvil ponders.
[23:01] <edmoore> teddies
[23:01] <rjharrison> ZP
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> Database of schools, and when you fly over, you drop one?
[23:01] <rjharrison> ?
[23:01] <Laurenceb> oooo kkkkkkk
[23:01] <edmoore> the kids at the local school built space suits for teddies
[23:01] <edmoore> teddies die at -30 degrees
[23:01] <Laurenceb> ah I see
[23:01] <edmoore> it is their job to keep the teddies alive
[23:01] <Laurenceb> lol
[23:01] <Laurenceb> kill the teddies
[23:01] <edmoore> we provide the space ship for them and the thermal logging
[23:01] <fuzzylugnuts> can I have the dead teddies for a stew?
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: pressure test them with a vacuum chamber, and show which ones die horribly.
[23:01] <Laurenceb> *eil grid*
[23:01] <rjharrison> By the way does anyonr have a monkey for my next launch
[23:02] <rjharrison> or should I use a dog first?
[23:02] <fuzzylugnuts> nooooooo
[23:02] <fuzzylugnuts> cat
[23:02] <Laurenceb> shac will get you
[23:03] <fuzzylugnuts> they replenish themselves when women masterbate
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> The things you find on ebay.
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Monkey-Magic-The-Complete-Series-DVD-Boxed-Set-Sealed_W0QQitemZ170272801365QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item170272801365&_trkparms=72%3A1301|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
[23:16] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: any thoughts on how I could make -PI overflow to +PI ?
[23:16] <Laurenceb> it would be cool to construct some sort of heading datatype that behaved like that
[23:16] <edmoore> if x < pi, x = x + 2*pi
[23:16] <edmoore> x < -pi*
[23:16] <Laurenceb> lol yes
[23:16] <SpeedEvil> -32767 = -pi +1/128000, +32768 = ...
[23:17] <Laurenceb> yeah
[23:17] <Laurenceb> something like that could work...
[23:18] <Laurenceb> oh well I'll probably stick with what I've got
[23:18] <SpeedEvil> If teh code you've got works - makes sense.
[23:18] <SpeedEvil> tweak it once it fles
[23:18] <Laurenceb> the scaling will add more code size
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> Maybe not - you scale once on the input, then all your angles are in that datatype
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[00:00] --- Fri Oct 24 2008