highaltitude.log.20081022

[00:00] <rjharrison_> I guess the camera tries to correct too
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[00:05] <Laurenceb> hello
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> o
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[00:17] <Laurenceb> right the radio code is now apparently working http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:radio
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:18] <Laurenceb> I need to test the kalman filter outisde to check the +-PI fix worked
[00:19] <Laurenceb> but apart from that its almost ready
[00:19] <Laurenceb> oh I need an antenna as well... probably RG-178 cable from farnell
[00:20] <SpeedEvil> got the physicals done?
[00:21] <Laurenceb> I still need to fix the polythene onto the wings... some tricky cutting
[00:22] <Laurenceb> the farnell site is down again :(
[00:23] <Laurenceb> I'm contemplating how to fi the envelope on... thinking sellotape atm
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> you mean the wings onto the structure?
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> sealed pockets?
[00:23] <Laurenceb> supposedly it loses its stickyness at low t
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> I played with a bag-sealer for that.
[00:24] <Laurenceb> yeah
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[00:24] <Laurenceb> but I dont have kit for doing good joints
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> make up a triangle, and then seal long pockets at the cornets
[00:24] <Laurenceb> bag sealer? where from
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> rs
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> lidl I think originally
[00:26] <Laurenceb> lidl?
[00:27] <Laurenceb> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360095198189&cguid=f792a0d611c0a0e204b45b44ff5aba67
[00:27] <Laurenceb> one of those?
[00:32] <Laurenceb> ooh http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-The-Amazing-POLYBONDER-Heat-Handy-Seal-Bag-Sealer_W0QQitemZ380067160545QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item380067160545&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
[00:33] <Laurenceb> in the uk :P
[00:34] <SpeedEvil> yes - that first one
[00:35] <SpeedEvil> it's got a cutter wire and a bonder - I unplugged the cutter
[00:35] <Laurenceb> ok
[00:35] <Laurenceb> the second one looks good
[00:35] <SpeedEvil> Well...
[00:35] <Laurenceb> I see
[00:36] <SpeedEvil> IME those never work especially evenly.
[00:36] <SpeedEvil> thjough I haven't used that one.
[00:37] <Laurenceb> well its got to be better than an iron
[00:37] <Laurenceb> just a matter of keeping a steady speed with your hand
[00:37] <SpeedEvil> though you could of course use DSA on that.
[00:37] <SpeedEvil> If it doesn't work
[00:38] <Laurenceb> DSA?
[00:38] <SpeedEvil> Distance selling regulations.
[00:38] <SpeedEvil> Basically you can return it if you don't like it.
[00:39] <Laurenceb> ah
[00:40] <Laurenceb> if it works I'd modify it to use a power supply
[00:40] <Laurenceb> and maybe add some sort of feed mechanism :P
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[00:41] <fuzzylugnuts> hrm.
[00:41] <SpeedEvil> 'it failed after only 43 kilometers, I want a new one'.
[00:41] <fuzzylugnuts> is fergus back yet?
[00:43] <Laurenceb> http://www.active-robots.com/products/motorsandwheels/robot-wheels.shtml
[00:43] <Laurenceb> the top one would be perfect
[00:43] <Laurenceb> fitted on a ontinous rotation servo
[00:44] <Laurenceb> http://www.active-robots.com/products/motorsandwheels/easy-roller.shtml I spoke too soon
[00:45] <Laurenceb> but its a silly price
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[00:46] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebuyer.com/product/127690
[00:47] <SpeedEvil> 2 for the same price
[00:49] <Laurenceb> lol
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> 'ok' vacuum cleaner, or a couple of nice wheels with suspension and motors.
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[00:50] <Laurenceb> well I'm off to make some food
[00:50] <SpeedEvil> wave
[01:05] <Laurenceb> back
[01:05] <Laurenceb> I think I'll buy that handheld bag sealer
[02:00] <Laurenceb> cya
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[05:53] <natrium42> everybody's sleeping?
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[08:01] <gordonjcp> natrium42: at 6am it's a distinct possibility
[08:01] <natrium42> bah
[08:01] <natrium42> sleep is for the weak and sickened
[08:02] <natrium42> gordonjcp, how easy is it to find stations on HF?
[08:03] <natrium42> amateur, that is
[08:03] <natrium42> i only found one RTTY one tonight
[08:08] <natrium42> gordonjcp, ?
[08:08] <natrium42> not you too :(
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[09:17] <gordonjcp> natrium42: actually I was getting ready for work and getting a train
[09:18] <gordonjcp> it should be fairly easy to find amateur stations on HF, but it takes a bit of practice
[09:18] <gordonjcp> because HF has such tremendous range you've got a better chance of hearing something, but it's often a bit tricky to find
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[12:02] <edmoore> rjharrison: fun
[12:04] <gordonjcp> http://www.gjcp.net/space/
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[12:24] <Hiena> Hi all!
[12:26] <Hiena> It's going to be fun. I've got the request from the university, to add a string of the temperature sensors to the solarballoon design.
[12:28] <Hiena> Also they requested to change the design from the spherical balloon, to a tubular one. Seems like they want to minimize the balloon material lost, and increasing the volume.
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[15:38] <rjharrison> ping edmoore
[15:38] <edmoore> yo
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[16:40] <Laurenceb> Hi folks
[16:43] <Hiena> Ugh, anybody knows the 1 atm volume, of the 40L @ 200 atm gas tank?
[16:43] <Laurenceb> *200?
[16:44] <Hiena> This is my first guess too.
[16:45] <Laurenceb> its basic :P
[16:45] <Laurenceb> assuming ideal gas law ect
[16:47] <Hiena> Yeah, but you know how is the reallity... ;)
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> 200 atm is about where gas gets non-ideal.
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> Actually - it's about 150 bar
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> 200 is well down the diminishing returns curve I think.
[16:52] <Hiena> OK. I'll ask the question on the different way. How much 1 cubic meter balloon could you fill with one tank helium?
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> Oh - helium.
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> I was assuming compressed air.
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> I dunno what the critical pressure of helium is, I think it's 6000PSI or so.
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> In which case it'd be simply 200*
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> (isothermally)
[16:53] <Hiena> Nitrogen, or oxigen or helium it doesn't matter all has the liquidity point over 200 atm.
[16:55] <Hiena> The guys at the university jumped too easily to sponsor the nitrogen fill of my balloon, and i want to gave them a rough estimation, how much is the fish.
[16:57] <Hiena> They has too much PHDs, just say yes to anything...
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> For helium, you need a small amount of fill gas related to the volume of the balloon.
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> As 1m^3 may lift a balloon that has a volume of several hundred m^3 when at altitude.
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> nitrogen is much, much worse, and you're going to need to mostly fill the balloon, and it will only ascend to a few thousand meters at best.
[17:02] <Laurenceb> http://www.nebula-prize.com/profile/profile.asp
[17:02] <Laurenceb> ^ I think those guys are actually serious
[17:02] <Hiena> Nope, we will stay at the ground level. We still have the 50m limit law, and don't want to spend the next 3 year in the jail.
[17:02] <Laurenceb> they seem to know what they are doing, despite the fact they want to run a 9 state kalman filter on a 20MHz 8051
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: well - they've missed a huge part - staging.
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: if you don't stage, you're going to need a large rocket - tons - to launch from the ground.
[17:04] <Laurenceb> http://www.nebula-prize.com/production/modular.asp
[17:04] <Laurenceb> looks interesting
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> I'd go so far as to say with that design, it's absolutely impossible it will work.
[17:05] <Laurenceb> but I'd say they've gone ott
[17:05] <Laurenceb> if they have any chance of it working and being built, they need to make it as basic as possible
[17:05] <Laurenceb> no guided descent parafoils for example
[17:06] <Laurenceb> and they the hell dont they use pyrotechnic seperation
[17:06] <SpeedEvil> They seem to have started at the wrong end.
[17:06] <Laurenceb> yeah
[17:07] <Laurenceb> like erm how the hell do they plan to get to orbit
[17:07] <SpeedEvil> You first need to work out how much mass you can launch with your budget.
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> With a single stage design, and recovery of the entire vehicle, it's bleeding edge at >10 tons launch weight.
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[17:10] <SpeedEvil> For small rockets, atmospheric drag _really_ hurts them. Add this to the extreme mass ratio needed for SSTO, and the comparatively huge payload needed for a reentry system, and controlled landing system - and it's not happening.
[17:11] <SpeedEvil> I can see something like a microSD landed in a beefed-up-shuttlecock working.
[17:11] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: hmm
[17:12] <gordonjcp> use a pyro to cut the wires to the card when you release?
[17:12] <gordonjcp> actually would a USB stick be better?
[17:12] <SpeedEvil> gordonjcp: naah - wire directly to the contacts
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[17:13] <Laurenceb> sd cards are easy to interface
[17:13] <SpeedEvil> gordonjcp: with .05mm wire, and then cut this when you pop the reentry module.
[17:13] <SpeedEvil> You'd need at least practically a helicopter to recover it practically.
[17:13] <SpeedEvil> And some large bit of land.
[17:13] <SpeedEvil> Like asia.
[17:14] <Laurenceb> you need a zero pint energy thruster
[17:14] <Laurenceb> *point
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> With a teeny enough reentry module, you can put enough delta-vee into it fairly cheaply that you can predict the landing elipse better.
[17:15] <Hiena> SpeedEvil, liftingbodies, liftingbodies, liftingbodies....
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: are expensive.
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> And heavy
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> See http://www.space.com/news/spacehistory/moose_000923.html
[17:21] <Hiena> Nice, but they left out one thing: The uncontrolled spin at descent. Over 50-70 rpm the centrifugal force could rip apart the "lifeboat".
[17:22] <Hiena> Not to mention the astronaut.
[17:23] <Hiena> This gives the danger of the high altitude parachute jumps.
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[17:25] <Hiena> Capt. Kittinger almost lost in such spin, when he tried to the classic jump pose.
[17:26] <Hiena> After that he jumped to the head first pose which was much stable.
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> The MOOSE was basically stable as it was a design similar to apollo.
[17:28] <SpeedEvil> Though made out of plastic and foam.
[17:30] <epictetus> ve vant to keel moose and squeeerel
[17:31] <Hiena> Btw, check the Traces of the Chaos comics. It had an interesting reentry idea too. http://www.trarr.net/540-first-contact
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[17:37] <Laurenceb> hi edmoore
[17:39] <Laurenceb> ed: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=223397&C=Froogle&U=223397&T=Product&MA=Handy%20Bag%20Sealer%20(Uniseal%20Bag%20Sealer%20W)
[17:40] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: http://www.bunny-comic.com/?id=1166
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[17:45] <edmoore_> hrm
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[19:00] <Laurenceb> hi edmoore
[19:00] <edmoore> hello
[19:01] <Laurenceb> what do you think to those handheld heat sealers?
[19:01] <Laurenceb> for making a tetroon
[19:01] <Laurenceb> http://www.getabagsealer.com/
[19:02] Nick change: Ei5GTB_ -> EI5GTB
[19:03] <EI5GTB> 2 for 8.45 can you go wrong?
[19:04] <EI5GTB> "worth its weight in heat sealers"
[19:04] <Laurenceb> rofl
[19:04] <Laurenceb> I'm, thinking for this: http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/projects:aldist
[19:05] <Laurenceb> I'm going to ditch the sensirion SHT15 and use a honeywell capacitive humidity sensor going off the AD7746
[19:05] <Laurenceb> as it has 2 capacitance channels
[19:10] <Laurenceb> if I use a V2 radio board with an atmega168P, current for the entire payload should be <60ma
[19:12] <Laurenceb> ah well time for me to head off, cya all
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[19:15] <edmoore> oh, idea
[19:16] <edmoore> oh wait, will wait for laurenceb
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[20:12] <Laurenceb> hello
[20:14] <rjharrison_> hi Laurenceb
[20:32] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/projects:aldist
[20:32] <Laurenceb> ^ I've simplified it a bit theres fewer I2C devices
[20:32] <edmoore> cool
[20:34] <Laurenceb> so shall I order the parts ?
[20:34] <Laurenceb> :P
[20:34] <Laurenceb> actually I need to email sensortechnics
[20:35] <Laurenceb> as that pressure sensor is "by request only"
[20:35] <Laurenceb> but the entire payload should come to <£50
[20:35] <edmoore> what's the spec?
[20:35] <edmoore> very nice
[20:35] <edmoore> inc all avionics?
[20:35] <Laurenceb> yeah
[20:36] <Laurenceb> its really cheap when you start making your own interfaces
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> length is spelled wrong :)
[20:36] <Laurenceb> i.e. that honeywell sensor and the AD7746
[20:36] <Laurenceb> trivialities, trivialities
[20:36] <edmoore> hrm, maybe we are spending too much
[20:37] <Laurenceb> sensortechnics is well worth checking out
[20:37] <Laurenceb> some very nice stuff
[20:37] <SpeedEvil> how much is the valve?
[20:38] <Laurenceb> not sure
[20:38] <Laurenceb> that could bring the price up a bit
[20:38] <rjharrison_> Laurenceb: BEWARE THE UART FROM DIAMOND FOR THE IQ is around the wrong way. Just read the datasheet and don't go with intuition and you'll be fine.
[20:38] <Laurenceb> but its pretty simple
[20:38] <edmoore> thinking about it, asside from the telit, badger is pretty cheap
[20:38] <Laurenceb> wut?
[20:39] <Laurenceb> rjharrison_: I dont follow
[20:39] <Laurenceb> round the wrong way?
[20:39] <Laurenceb> surely its just a cable
[20:39] <rjharrison_> Laurenceb: The casing suggests that the uart cable should go one way. This is the wrong way as I foind out to my costs. I know own a very dead IQ
[20:40] <Laurenceb> :(
[20:40] <Laurenceb> I would always check datacables with a multimeter
[20:40] <Laurenceb> so you're 100% sure where pin 1, 2, 8 ect are
[20:41] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: just check that the minimum logic output voltage is plenty to trigger the FETs under worst-case temperature and ... status.
[20:41] <rjharrison_> The casing has an indent for the cable to go out on but the cable from diamond actually forces it to go the other way due to it been constructed wrong
[20:41] <edmoore> a pressure sensor that could operate to a 1.5k ºC would be good
[20:41] <edmoore> with a decent bandwidth
[20:42] <Laurenceb> rj: I see, that sucks
[20:42] <Laurenceb> edmoore: for a rocket?
[20:42] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: That valve is rated to -40C?
[20:42] <Laurenceb> yeah
[20:42] <rjharrison_> They openly admit it just beware and you'll be fine
[20:42] <edmoore> yep
[20:42] <edmoore> combustion chambre pressure
[20:42] <Laurenceb> with the silicone o ring
[20:42] <Laurenceb> edmoore: use a pipe
[20:42] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: you don't have a net gas flow through the pressure sensor
[20:43] <Laurenceb> edmoore: look at armadillo aerospace's site
[20:43] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: unless you're doing it wrong. A long thin pipe will work just fine.
[20:43] <edmoore> a pipe?
[20:43] <Laurenceb> thin pipe
[20:43] <Laurenceb> look at your car engine
[20:43] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: a 1m 1mm dia pipe will not transfer heat from one end to the other
[20:43] <Laurenceb> they often use the same technique
[20:43] <edmoore> oh i see
[20:43] <Laurenceb> :P
[20:43] <edmoore> so like a coild of pipe
[20:43] <edmoore> coil*
[20:44] <Laurenceb> usually just a few 100mm does the trick
[20:44] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[20:44] <Laurenceb> and thats sufficient to put the sensor in a nice location
[20:44] <edmoore> ok cool, that's good to know
[20:44] <edmoore> that may be better than cunning plan 'a'.
[20:45] <edmoore> http://www.sensortechnics.com/index.php?fid=300&fpar=YToxOntzOjQ6InBjaWQiO3M6MjoiNTQiO30%3D&isSSL=0&aps=0&blub=85fb9f6b53561785b4f182119873683b
[20:45] <edmoore> may have to build my own hybrid engine though
[20:45] <edmoore> less cool
[20:48] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: IME those sort of valves are typically >50 quid
[20:49] <Laurenceb> its only a 4.5gram plastic thingy
[20:50] <Laurenceb> edmoore: http://www.sensortechnics.com/index.php?fid=300&fpar=YToxOntzOjQ6InBjaWQiO3M6MzoiMjg3Ijt9&isSSL=0&aps=0&blub=90d23423d23ec263ec69f55863dd6629
[20:50] <Laurenceb> might be useful on a hybrid
[20:51] Action: Laurenceb cnsiders using it with nitric acid
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> PSANA?
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> (pink, slightly annoyed fuming nitrica acid)
[20:53] <Laurenceb> lol
[20:54] <Laurenceb> edmoore, rjharrison_ have you experienced any issues with the lassen iq in the first minute or two after it gets a lock?
[20:55] <Laurenceb> mine will stop outputting the 0x6D packet for several intervals of up to 10 seconds
[20:55] <Laurenceb> according to the datasheet (if I'm reading it correctly) 0x6D is guarenteed at 1Hz
[20:56] <Laurenceb> and I use it to detect a new update, so my code ends up timing out
[20:58] <edmoore> Laurenceb: that valve is interesting
[20:58] <edmoore> and I would like to build my own hybrid
[20:59] <edmoore> it would be great for an RCS actually
[21:00] <edmoore> there is an arguement for doing this as an RCS
[21:00] <Laurenceb> RCS?
[21:00] <edmoore> so it's motor independent
[21:00] <edmoore> reaction control system
[21:00] <edmoore> rather than shit-in-the-exhaust-flow
[21:00] <Laurenceb> ah
[21:00] <Laurenceb> sure
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> shit in the exhaust flow is damn simple.
[21:01] <edmoore> i know, it's my current leaning
[21:01] <edmoore> hence wanting to know chambre pressure
[21:01] <edmoore> or something that is vaguely a function of thrust
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> My design was rather simple.
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> A assymetrical rotating nozzle extension.
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> constant rotation = no net torque.
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> one axis++
[21:03] <Laurenceb> what do you think to this http://www.nebula-prize.com/
[21:03] <edmoore> well, i've read it all over several times
[21:03] <edmoore> he's no slouch
[21:04] <Laurenceb> yeah
[21:04] <SpeedEvil> Seems to be neglecting teeny details.
[21:04] <SpeedEvil> Like SSTO and mass fraction.
[21:04] <Laurenceb> but I just dont get some of it
[21:04] <Laurenceb> expecially a kalman filter on a 8051
[21:04] <edmoore> he's not neglecting them
[21:04] <edmoore> and he spent 8 years in an advanced avionics research lab, using kalman filters before I was even born
[21:05] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: I diddn't see any mention of staging, or ...
[21:05] <edmoore> so i wouldn't write him off on the basics
[21:05] <edmoore> where does it say he's doing kalman on 8051s anyway?
[21:06] <Laurenceb> http://www.nebula-prize.com/design/nav.asp
[21:06] <Laurenceb> bottom of the page
[21:07] <Laurenceb> talking of kalman filters I'm thinking of doing a car test with the min rogallo
[21:07] <Laurenceb> may be easier than fitting all the kit onto a bike
[21:12] <Laurenceb> any thoughts on my lassen iq issue?
[21:27] <rjharrison_> edmoore would it be a real pain in the arse if we had to tx on 434.245
[21:27] <edmoore> i don't know
[21:27] Nick change: rjharrison_ -> rjharrison
[21:27] <edmoore> if there's a tx for it then it's probably not that annoying
[21:28] <rjharrison> TX but it looks like 5v reg. supply. Pain in arse when ideally I wanted 2.9-15v
[21:29] <rjharrison> I'll have a chat with radiometrix tomrrow and see what the deal is
[21:29] <rjharrison> Ideally want the same device as I have been using on diff freq
[21:30] <rjharrison> I will write to ofcom and get an official line on this befor proceeding at least then there has been so official recomendation
[21:30] <rjharrison> some
[21:31] <edmoore> we just wrote to them too
[21:32] <edmoore> which tx needs the 5V reg?
[21:33] <edmoore> have to go in about 1 min
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> wave
[21:37] <rjharrison> the TXL2-433-9 TRANSMITTER
[21:37] <rjharrison> from radiometrix
[21:37] <rjharrison> cannel 3 might be a possiblity +
[21:38] <rjharrison> channel
[21:38] <edmoore> hold horses
[21:38] <edmoore> that's an all-up modem
[21:38] <edmoore> useless to us
[21:39] <edmoore> you'll never seen the payload again unless you have jodrell bank listening for it
[21:40] <edmoore> right, need to be off
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[22:24] <jcoxon> evening all
[22:27] <natrium42> hi
[22:28] <jcoxon> hey natrium42
[22:28] <natrium42> set up my HF antenna yesterday
[22:28] <jcoxon> oh cool
[22:29] <natrium42> not sure whether it's working adequately
[22:29] <natrium42> no idea how to check
[22:29] <natrium42> got a RTTY station in florida yesterday night
[22:29] <jcoxon> SWR?
[22:29] <EI5GTB> http://blog.paulsnet.org/?p=38
[22:29] <EI5GTB> :P
[22:29] <natrium42> haha
[22:29] <natrium42> i want the variable PS
[22:31] Action: EI5GTB points out the variable bit is broken
[22:32] <EI5GTB> my whole shack is depressing
[22:32] <EI5GTB> no-wondfer i never get anything done
[22:35] <natrium42> what do most voice communications on HF use?
[22:35] <natrium42> SSB?
[22:36] <EI5GTB> yea
[22:36] <EI5GTB> its the most efficent
[22:36] <natrium42> USB or LSB?
[22:37] <EI5GTB> below 10mhz lsb, above, usb
[22:37] <EI5GTB> generally
[22:37] <EI5GTB> in amateur communications anayway
[22:37] <natrium42> hrm
[22:38] <natrium42> i guess i have to play with it
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[00:00] --- Thu Oct 23 2008