highaltitude.log.20080930

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[00:09] <Laurenceb_> I'm trying to work out this asm code: http://pastebin.com/m2619a717
[00:09] <Laurenceb_> its checking for a password recieved
[00:09] <Laurenceb_> but whats the password?
[00:12] <Laurenceb_> ah nvm its in the source for the PC end code
[00:35] <Laurenceb_> hmm this is interesting
[00:35] <Laurenceb_> I removed my avr from the flight computer board, read off the bootloader code, it was corrupted
[00:35] <Laurenceb_> loaded new code, it works, but there is bit rot in the flash
[00:36] <Laurenceb_> maybe I've got a batch of dodgy chips ?!
[00:36] <Laurenceb_> oh well time to get some sleep, cya all
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[04:25] <SpikeUK> Laurenceb_ ping! Ref "bit rot" in AVR flash. Has this AVR flown? May the flash memory have radiation damage? - BBL
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[09:33] <rharrison_> Morning all
[09:34] <rharrison_> natrium42 are you still enjoying your new Icon?
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[14:18] <edmoore> fnoble
[14:18] <edmoore> oh, you're not here
[14:20] <gordonjcp> neither is jcoxon
[14:20] <gordonjcp> anyone know how he got on with his licence?
[14:25] <edmoore> I think is 2nd course and test are sunday
[14:25] <edmoore> my 1st daycourse is soon - am excited
[14:41] <gordonjcp> cool
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[15:03] <gordonjcp> edmoore: have you done any of the bits already?
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[15:33] <edmoore> gordonjcp: sorry way away
[15:33] <edmoore> I haven't yet
[15:33] <gordonjcp> got the book?
[15:33] <edmoore> I've only drooled over the ic-7000
[15:34] <edmoore> nope, though i've been steadily working through the arrl handbook
[15:34] <gordonjcp> edmoore: oh, are you in the US?
[15:34] <gordonjcp> yeah, I was looking at the IC-7000 at the Jaycee open day
[15:35] <gordonjcp> nice
[15:35] <gordonjcp> 800 quid buys a lot of less sophisticated kit though
[15:35] <gordonjcp> I reckon I could put a nice station on the air for that, including buying a garden shed to put it in
[15:35] <edmoore> gordonjcp: no no, down south
[15:35] <edmoore> but i just happen to have a copy of it
[15:35] <gordonjcp> ah right
[15:36] <gordonjcp> yeah, the ARRL handbook is good, but bear in mind that licencing in the US is pretty different ;-)
[15:36] <edmoore> yeah - I'm a student so not in a position to afford anything at the moment
[15:36] <edmoore> but you can still look at brochures :)
[15:36] <gordonjcp> well I'll tell you what
[15:36] <gordonjcp> I picked up a 2nd-hand Kenwood TH-F7 for 140 quid, and it's a beast
[15:37] <gordonjcp> but I got started on chasing LEO satellites with a Jingtong JT-308 which was 15 quid off eBay
[15:37] <edmoore> :)
[15:37] <edmoore> I'll be mainly in it for ballooning initially
[15:37] <gordonjcp> also there's the advantage with older stuff that you can crack it open and modify it
[15:38] <edmoore> listening on 70cm and uplinking on something else
[15:38] <gordonjcp> well if you've got about 30 quid to spare, one of the chinese handies will do very nicely
[15:38] <edmoore> We gave up on them in terms of sensitivity for HABing
[15:38] <edmoore> had a cheapo scanner
[15:38] <gordonjcp> my TH-F7 has a transceiver on 2m or 70cm, and a receiver that goes from 100kHz to 1.2GHz
[15:39] <gordonjcp> scanners are rubbish
[15:39] <gordonjcp> deaf as a post
[15:39] <edmoore> 2m could be perfect for uplink
[15:39] <gordonjcp> if you're just using it for 70cm then a simple preamp and bandpass filter would be really helpful
[15:39] <edmoore> given it's about the wingspan of the glider i want to make
[15:39] <gordonjcp> edmoore: yeah, a dipole is only a metre across
[15:39] <gordonjcp> still long enough to be unwieldy
[15:40] <edmoore> well if it's in the wing then it's all gravy
[15:40] <edmoore> Laurenceb_: have abandoned parafoil
[15:41] <edmoore> gordonjcp: did you hear natrium42 has been asked to give a talk at his local google campus?
[15:42] <gordonjcp> cool
[15:42] <gordonjcp> I did not, no
[15:42] <edmoore> lucky bugger
[15:47] <edmoore> his ic-7000 will give him strength
[16:01] <gordonjcp> only up to 10W until he gets his Intermediate though
[16:02] <gordonjcp> that said, he can probably get into one of my local repeaters with irlp
[16:02] <edmoore> 10W! oh I can't wait
[16:02] <edmoore> 2 years of knowing nothing but 10mW
[16:03] <gordonjcp> heh
[16:03] <gordonjcp> my IC-22A will do 9W on high, .9W on low
[16:03] <gordonjcp> my TS-7730 will do 25W on high though
[16:04] <gordonjcp> need to be a bit careful with that
[16:04] <edmoore> wow
[16:04] <edmoore> a fair bit
[16:05] <gordonjcp> heh, the Tait 70MHz stuff will do 25W flat out, and my Philips FM1100 will apparently do 45W according to the power meter
[16:06] <edmoore> I see advanced license holders can fling 400W around
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[16:06] <edmoore> so both a telemetry uplink and radar would be possible, it seems
[16:06] <edmoore> I'd love to make my own phased array
[16:07] <gordonjcp> edmoore: easy
[16:07] <gordonjcp> edmoore: yeah, you can also get a NOV to use even higher powers, generally up to 1kW
[16:07] <edmoore> could do accurate distance and ranging on the balloon
[16:08] <edmoore> what's a NOV?
[16:08] <gordonjcp> Notice Of Variation
[16:08] <gordonjcp> official OFCOM recognition "I'm going to be fucking about. It's going to get loud."
[16:08] <edmoore> does that mean 'don't stand too close to my transmitter'?
[16:10] <edmoore> i remember hicking around fylingdales and seeing the phased array there. It's the standard thing for duke of edinburgh expeditions whilst you've driving up - it's not on any maps, but it's f*cking massive and visible from 10s of miles around, so you take a bearings and triangulate its position, put it on your map, and never get lost
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[16:10] <edmoore> it looks so cool
[16:12] <gordonjcp> well you can make a phased array on any frequency
[16:13] <gordonjcp> my Dad and one of his friends built a phased array of (iirc) 2m antennas for moonbounce
[16:13] <edmoore> oh awesome
[16:13] <edmoore> the idea appeals to be a lot more than a tracking point thing
[16:14] <gordonjcp> if you build two antennas at 90 degrees to each other and couple them up in phase with one antenna about 6" behind the other, that's a circularly-polarised array for 70cm
[16:16] <edmoore> am trying to mental visualise that
[16:16] <gordonjcp> ok
[16:16] <gordonjcp> imagine a TV aerial
[16:17] <gordonjcp> lie it flat so the elements run 9-o'clock/3-o'clock
[16:18] <gordonjcp> if you add another set of elements running 12/6-o'clock, then you can receive both horizontal and vertical polarisation
[16:18] <gordonjcp> if you space one set a little behind the others, the time it takes the signal to reach the second driven element will mean that the polarisation lines up
[16:18] <edmoore> sure i'm up with my interferometry
[16:19] <edmoore> just trying to see the circularisation
[16:19] <edmoore> pen and paper time :)
[16:24] <edmoore> actually
[16:25] <edmoore> i know fazackerly where this would be more useful
[16:25] <edmoore> a phased array on a hab - to always concentrate the beam towards the ground
[16:25] <edmoore> or rather, towards the listening tower in cambridge
[16:26] <edmoore> oh gosh, now I'm excited. FPGAs are cheap now. This could be done. This could be a project
[16:27] <gordonjcp> hmm
[16:27] <edmoore> or not?
[16:28] <gordonjcp> well, it would be interesting
[16:28] <gordonjcp> quite difficult but don't let that put you off - you may discover something really cool
[16:28] <edmoore> well if i make it a masters project then it doesn't actually have to work
[16:28] Action: gordonjcp isn't clever enough to figure out DSP phased array stuff
[16:29] <edmoore> but I could have lots of fun trying
[16:29] <gordonjcp> I'm fairly oldskool and would go for a zepp on the balloon and a bloody big yagi on the ground
[16:29] <gordonjcp> probably steered by the Armstrong Method
[16:29] <gordonjcp> have you thought of using a slim jim or jpole on the balloon?
[16:30] <edmoore> nope - am dxzoning all this now
[16:30] <gordonjcp> well it was originally called a Zeppelin antenna
[16:30] <gordonjcp> guess why?
[16:30] <edmoore> I can :)
[16:31] <edmoore> I just think a phased array would be cool in a whole new one. And actually lots of it could be done on a bench which isn't the case for most of my ideas usually
[16:31] <edmoore> whole new way*
[16:31] <gordonjcp> yup
[16:31] <gordonjcp> y'know
[16:31] <edmoore> i know nartheeeng
[16:31] <gordonjcp> if the balloon tlm includes gps position, you could maybe use that to steer the yagi
[16:32] <edmoore> that's the plan anyway
[16:32] <edmoore> just point a yagi at the gps position
[16:32] <edmoore> given the listing tower will know its position too
[16:33] <edmoore> but if both ends could point, we'd be able to do some pretty serious datarates
[16:33] <edmoore> i'd much rather do this at lower freqs tho
[16:33] <edmoore> DDS would be much easier
[16:36] <edmoore> though I gues it would be too big
[16:36] <edmoore> ok, I have *lots* of reading to do
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> FPGA is really not teh way you want to go.
[16:40] <SpeedEvil> It's a sledgehammer to crack a very small nut - feeding appropriate phase to a driven element.
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> You can do the calculations on a very little micro.
[16:47] <edmoore> even better
[16:47] <edmoore> I'm litterally just throwing ideas about atm
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> The power limits in many cases are specified EIRP anyway, so it doesn't help.
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> Unless you're trying to make a reciever that can be electronically steered.
[16:59] <edmoore> i don't think that was specified to us
[16:59] <edmoore> well the receiver would be useful too. but that comes later
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> I think it's likely implied, even if it was left off IMO.
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> But if they diddn't tell you...
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> Then there is always the stupid approach.
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> Directional antenna on balloon spinning randomly and a compass.
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> Or even no compass.
[17:04] <edmoore> or several patch antennas on the circumference, and fire them up based off a compass
[17:05] <edmoore> but thats boring
[17:05] <edmoore> i want a meaty and cool project
[17:05] <gordonjcp> hang on
[17:05] <gordonjcp> you know where the balloon is
[17:05] <gordonjcp> you know where the base is
[17:05] <gordonjcp> calculate the bearing to the base and spin the antenna round
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> That too.
[17:05] <gordonjcp> ... or build a zepp
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> gordonjcp: yes - that's a moving part though.
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[17:11] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ucalgary.ca/~keith/AirCapture.html Interesting. CO2 sequestration in a low-energy-from-the air way.
[17:12] <edmoore> gordonjcp: i'd like to avoid a mecahnical solution on the balloon
[17:12] <edmoore> it is a small bit of foam on the end of some string
[17:12] <edmoore> the string can provide no counter torques
[17:12] <edmoore> the payload has piss-all inertia
[17:12] <edmoore> or moment of inertia
[17:12] <edmoore> so i think something solid state might work a bit better
[17:13] <SpeedEvil> or a momenum wheel.
[17:13] <edmoore> indeed. *but* as I say, mechanical solutions are less favourable for me
[17:13] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[17:13] <edmoore> I don't mind throwing effort at a phased array. it has big advantages
[17:13] <edmoore> like near instant reaction time, lighter, less to go wrong
[17:14] <natrium42> hi
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> I think that a directional antenna randomly rotating, and a transmit burst when it's on target is the sweet spot.
[17:14] <edmoore> near simultaneous tranmission - can do 50-baud rtty to the chase car and high speed stuff to the base station
[17:14] <edmoore> i don't like random rotation
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> phased arrays are of course nice.
[17:15] <edmoore> indeed, and as i say, it doesn't *have8 to work - it's a masters project
[17:15] <edmoore> there's plenty of cool state estimation in there just knowing where to point the beam
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> I can get it to $10/beam trivially.
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> /node
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure how to get to $1
[17:17] <edmoore> you mean node for the array?
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> (couple of 2.4G 4 quadrant mixers, I and Q inputs, passive, PA)
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> yes
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> switching between 8 or so possible phases is 'easy'.
[17:26] <edmoore> i'd want to stick with the lowest freq I can
[17:30] <edmoore> just so as not to loose propataion
[17:31] <edmoore> though they may be more merit to using more 2.4 nodes in a given area than fewer 434 nodes, so you could get a tighter beam
[17:31] <edmoore> a bunch of 2.4 ceramic patch antennas would be idea, I naivelly suggest
[17:32] <gordonjcp> sod ceramic, use pcb
[17:34] <edmoore> ok :)
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> ceramic has no use in this app
[17:34] <edmoore> that's certainaly easier
[17:34] <edmoore> pcb patch?
[17:35] <gordonjcp> yeah
[17:35] <edmoore> i know all the comms sats seem to use conical/helical things in their arrays
[17:35] <edmoore> but that probably introduces polarisation which I don't want
[17:37] <gordonjcp> helical antennas are circularly polarised
[17:39] <edmoore> exactly
[17:40] <edmoore> though actually what sort of ground antenna works for patch antenna transmission?
[17:40] <edmoore> still a single plane yagi?
[17:41] <natrium42> gordonjcp, have you listened to AO-27?
[17:42] <gordonjcp> natrium42: I have
[17:43] <natrium42> cool
[17:44] <natrium42> people on eham say they get birdies on that freq with the ts-2000
[17:44] <natrium42> i was considering it initially
[17:44] <gordonjcp> I get lots of hash on its frequency with the Jingtong but I suspect that's SCADA interference
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[17:45] <gordonjcp> natrium42: I've also heard AO-7 twice
[17:46] <gordonjcp> bear in mind I'm essentially using a portable setup in a suburban back garden surrounded by trees...
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[17:48] <jcoxon> evening all
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[17:48] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: hello
[17:48] <jcoxon> hey gordonjcp
[17:48] <gordonjcp> how's the radio amateur course going?
[17:49] <jcoxon> good, got my exam on sunday
[17:49] <jcoxon> though haven't done any revision
[17:49] <jcoxon> shall do soon!
[17:49] <gordonjcp> heh
[17:49] <gordonjcp> done any sample papers?
[17:49] <jcoxon> not yet
[17:49] <gordonjcp> there are a couple on the net
[17:50] <jcoxon> been working my hospital so haven't really had much time
[17:50] Nick change: rharrison_ -> rharrison
[17:50] <jcoxon> yeah i got sent a link
[17:50] <jcoxon> rharrison, good news - the EARS permission actually continues till the 26th of October
[17:50] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: it's really fairly easy, but some of the wrong answers are quite plausible
[17:51] <jcoxon> okay
[17:51] <gordonjcp> and once you get your licence, hop into your nearest echolink-enabled repeater and give me a shout
[17:51] <rharrison> Great. Is it the EARS that covers the HAPS launches?
[17:51] <rharrison> UKHAS
[17:51] <jcoxon> yeah sort of
[17:52] <jcoxon> most non-cusf launch from EARs
[17:52] <jcoxon> EARS*
[17:52] <rharrison> Is that nearby?
[17:52] <jcoxon> its just to the west of cam
[17:52] <rharrison> OK cool
[17:53] <edmoore> though haps was from churchill too, iirc
[17:53] <jcoxon> true
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[17:54] <jcoxon> rharrison, its jus that they are registerd in different names
[17:54] <rharrison> I'm going to head off home. Will chat later. Working on the CHDK stuff tonight
[17:54] <jcoxon> so depends whos launching
[17:54] <rharrison> Tops
[17:54] <jcoxon> edmoore, weather this weekend :-(
[17:54] <edmoore> i know
[17:54] <rharrison> I'll leave the permisson bit with you if that's ok
[17:54] <edmoore> but it's still a bit early to call
[17:55] <jcoxon> edmoore, indeed
[17:55] <jcoxon> summer ended yesterday, hehe
[17:55] <rharrison> laters
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[18:02] <edmoore> RocketboyV1: is that a registered nick?
[18:03] <RocketboyV1> nope
[18:03] <edmoore> that explains it...
[18:03] <RocketboyV1> Wot?
[18:04] <edmoore> PMs
[18:04] <edmoore> not getting/not able to reply
[18:05] <RocketboyV1> ah .. better register it .. I wanted RocketBoy but some b... has already registered it
[18:05] <RocketboyV1> na the pm problem is mIRC not flagging it
[18:06] <edmoore> ah ok - so have you got my PMs to you?
[18:06] <RocketboyV1> yep
[18:07] <RocketboyV1> its me I'm too cheap to pay for an IRC client (Xchat for windows is only free for a month) - so i keep using this early version of mIRC thats free
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[18:23] <RocketboyV1> used to be much better when they were the RA
[18:26] <RocketboyV1> see 8) on http://www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/licensing/classes/rlans/technical/ofw311/ - this is what alloows us to use 434MHz
[18:26] <RocketboyV1> well its taken from another doc
[18:27] <edmoore> oh i wondered about that
[18:27] <edmoore> using hobby rc stuff
[18:27] <edmoore> know one would ever know.....
[18:29] <RocketboyV1> and see "Wireless Video Cameras - Non Broadcasting" at the bottom of the same page
[18:29] <RocketboyV1> "You may also use the 2.4 GHz band for airborne video applications, subject to any further regulations required by the Civil Aviation Authority, where applicable"
[18:31] <natrium42> so weather outlook is bad for this weekend? :(
[18:35] <edmoore> it's looking not too hot
[18:35] <RocketboyV1> doc IR2030 is what we want
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[18:36] <Hiena> Any HAM operator here?
[18:37] <natrium42> gordonjcp, RocketboyV1
[18:37] <Hiena> I'm looking for some Standard transreceiver user manuals.
[18:38] <edmoore> EI5GTB_ too, Hiena
[18:38] <natrium42> oh yeah, that sounds suspiciously like a call sign
[18:38] <Hiena> Yup.
[18:39] <natrium42> edmoore, you should select EDM00R
[18:39] <edmoore> RocketboyV1: are such things possible?
[18:39] <Ei5GTB_> soomeone pung?
[18:39] <Ei5GTB_> i like hm
[18:39] <Ei5GTB_> ha,*
[18:40] <Ei5GTB_> ham*
[18:40] <Ei5GTB_> i dont like typing tho..
[18:40] <Ei5GTB_> all the keys arent where i would like me
[18:40] <Ei5GTB_> em*
[18:40] <natrium42> what about bacon?
[18:40] <natrium42> /har har
[18:40] <Ei5GTB_> bacon.. only on saturdays
[18:46] <gordonjcp> Hiena: hi
[18:47] <gordonjcp> what are you looking for?
[18:48] <Hiena> gordonjcp, Standard 334 type transreceiver user manual.
[18:49] <Hiena> And another three model user manual, but i can't remember the numbers.
[18:50] <gordonjcp> Hiena: not something I have
[18:51] <Hiena> No problem. At the worst case i'll fire up some of my old 2 meter transmitter and start to CQ.
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[18:53] <gordonjcp> Hiena: What exactly are you trying to do?
[18:57] <Hiena> Not much. My boss is looking for the user manuals, and i'll ask around with the local HAM operators.
[19:00] <Hiena> And much easyer to making a call with 200mW, than digging up ten or more years old phone numbers.
[19:18] <gordonjcp> funny, it's hard to even find much on the 'net
[19:20] <Hiena> I know. Yet the community is usually, really helpfull. And they has a damned good memory.
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[19:25] <robert1971> back CHDK here I come
[19:26] Nick change: robert1971 -> rharrison
[19:48] <natrium42> hi rharrison
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[20:22] <rharrison> Hi natrium42
[20:23] <rharrison> How is the icom going
[20:23] <rharrison> That is one nice model
[20:25] <edmoore> it really is
[20:27] <rharrison> edmoore is waiting for his birthday / christmas
[20:27] <edmoore> I think £700 christmas presents are perhaps a bit optimistic
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[21:18] <fnoble> hello gang
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[22:20] <rharrison> Hi all
[22:21] <rharrison> Just poping in to gloat that I have installed CHDK on a 32GB SDHC card having partitioned it in to 24Mb and 31GB
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[22:22] <rharrison> Need to get the script working now
[22:25] <edmoore> details :)
[22:32] <rharrison> Basic script to start with. Shoot pic and 30 sec video every 5 mins
[22:32] <rharrison> Then another script to shoot continuous video after an hour
[22:33] <rharrison> Capture that balloon burst!
[22:33] <edmoore> awesome
[22:34] <rharrison> Be interesting to see which dies first! The lipos or the sd card
[22:34] <edmoore> am not convinced that a 2-radial groundplane is particularly efficient, incidently
[22:34] <edmoore> i've been reading
[22:34] <rharrison> Why is that. Sort of proof in the pudding ie did fime last Thursday
[22:34] <rharrison> fine*
[22:35] <rharrison> Go on
[22:35] <edmoore> oh it's probably good enough, just if it ever drifts off it'll by undecodable sooner than a 4-radial design
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[22:36] <rharrison> I think you're right. But hell I had a perfect run on thursday. Will test again this w/e
[22:37] <edmoore> for CW and within a range that will actually means it will land on land, it'll doubtless be fine
[22:37] <rharrison> If it seems to work all enought of the time I may stick with it. May have mor problems with rtty
[22:37] <rharrison> all = well
[22:37] <edmoore> it's probably when it's on the ground that you'd notice it, if there's anything to notice
[22:38] <rharrison> Yep, when I can't hear shit and hunting blind for the payload.
[22:38] <rharrison> Hopefully that is GSM to the rescue
[22:39] <rharrison> Though foxing should get close enought to pick up the signal to get the gps coords again
[22:40] <edmoore> well it's precisely that that can cause the fun - getting close enough to it to hear it on the deck
[22:40] <edmoore> you'd be amazed how faint it can be if it lands in a bad way
[22:40] <rharrison> Humm will try a few test bad landings
[22:48] <natrium42> rharrison, still on for the weekend?
[22:49] <rharrison> It depends on the weather
[22:49] <rharrison> Not looking too good at the moment
[22:50] <rharrison> RocketboyV1: Found a new supplier for baloons in Belgium
[22:50] <rharrison> Getting a quote and see how they compare to Kaymont
[23:03] <RocketboyV1> let me know how you get on
[23:24] <jcoxon> night all
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[23:41] <Laurenceb_> hello
[23:43] <Laurenceb_> do people use desolder wick or suction thingys?
[23:43] <Laurenceb_> I've just been trying to desolder a board with wick and its driving me mad
[23:43] <Laurenceb_> once you get to fairly large components you just cant get it hot enough (its a power supply)
[23:44] <edmoore> Laurenceb_: wick
[23:44] <edmoore> get a bigger iron :p
[23:44] <Laurenceb_> ha
[23:45] <Laurenceb_> wick is just so thermally conductive
[23:45] <Laurenceb_> burnt my fingers holding it 5cm away
[23:46] <Laurenceb_> oh wow spacex have launched
[23:46] <Laurenceb_> well done to them :D
[23:48] <gordonjcp> solder wick?
[23:48] <gordonjcp> fucking useless stuff
[23:48] <gordonjcp> get a good solder sucker
[23:48] <gordonjcp> it won't be cheap but it'll last a long time
[23:48] <Laurenceb_> hehe I knew someone would have that opinion
[23:48] <gordonjcp> if you're trying to remove a lot of chips from a board, and you don't care about the board, use a heat gun
[23:48] <Laurenceb_> I havent used a solder sucker for ages
[23:56] <Laurenceb_> hmm I really cant work out these bootloader problems I've had
[23:56] <Laurenceb_> what are the chances of getting some faulty PDIP avrs ?
[23:58] <Laurenceb_> maybe atmel have less stringent quality control for PDIP ?
[23:58] <Laurenceb_> I just cant work out why one would have a dead uart straight out of the tube
[00:00] --- Wed Oct 1 2008