highaltitude.log.20080929

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[00:21] <fuzzylugnuts> mmmmm.. gin
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[08:48] <SpeedEvil> http://www.xkcd.com/ on-topic
[08:49] <icez> they called pluto a neener neener :(
[08:56] <SpeedEvil> They have balloons though.
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[11:54] <edmoore> fnoble: morning
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[12:00] <fnoble> edmoore, hello
[12:00] <fnoble> edmoore, whats new
[12:00] <edmoore> nothing much
[12:06] <edmoore> getting my PM's?
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[14:20] <natrium42> SpeedEvil, nice! :)
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[14:32] <SpikeUK> rharrison ping!
[14:38] <rharrison_> pong
[14:39] <rharrison_> edmoore: Working on those balloons
[14:39] <rharrison_> SpikeUK: How you doing?
[14:39] <SpikeUK> rharrison hi! The other day you were looking for a source of 2x 3-way IDC connectors suitable for ISP use. The only place in the UK that I've been able to find these are http://www.toby.co.uk/content/catalogue/products.asp?series=101-W-xx-R1 currently out of stock but I'll be ordering some when they arrive - you are welcome to a few if you can wait!
[14:39] <rharrison_> Fantastic
[14:40] <rharrison_> SpikeUK: Would definately like 10 of those rare connectors.
[14:40] <SpikeUK> rharrison - Cool! Can you wait?
[14:41] <rharrison_> Yep. Being waiting for about 3 months another few weeks wont hurt
[14:42] <rharrison_> Do they do the polarised headers that go with them?
[14:42] <edmoore> rharrison_: grand thank you
[14:42] <SpikeUK> rharrison_. Just a moment - I'll look
[14:42] <rharrison_> Then I could use them for isp heades on the boards and not even have to think about which way to insert the plug.
[14:43] <rharrison_> edmoore: Tracked down the totex manufacturer in japan
[14:44] <edmoore> they are out
[14:45] <edmoore> pinged them on friday
[14:45] <edmoore> we've tried the obvious ones, i think it's almost certainly a case of one lying around
[14:45] <rharrison_> The met don't sell any. I'm trying to see if we can perlone a 1500 or 3000 from a stock pile
[14:46] <edmoore> that's probably the way
[14:48] <SpikeUK> rharrison_ Straight 6-pin polarised box header http://www.toby.co.uk/content/catalogue/products.asp?series=302-S-xx-D1R1 seems to be it!
[14:50] <rharrison_> SpikeUK: It's a nightmare trying to match plugs and sockets... I would definately be up for a few of those when they are back in stock
[14:52] <SpikeUK> rharrison_ ok! I was looking to make my order up to 30GBP to save on postage - ten plugs and ten sockets do you sir?
[14:53] <rharrison_> Perfect how would you like payment for parts and postage
[14:53] <rharrison_> paypal?
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[15:16] <SpikeUK> rharrison_ let me get the bits first then we can talk about it.
[15:32] <edmoore> grumble student finance grumble
[15:32] <edmoore> how can they send students an 0870 helpline and keep them waiting 20 mins
[15:32] <rharrison_> SpikeUK: Thanks for sorting that
[15:32] <fnoble> listening to radio 4?
[15:32] <fnoble> oh i see
[15:33] <edmoore> fnoble: no, though i heard moneybox was doing something on it today
[15:36] <fnoble> yeah, it just finished
[15:36] <SpikeUK> rharrison_ No problems. I was trying to find some connectors for AVR ISP myself, then saw your message here.
[15:41] <rharrison_> SpeedEvil I appreciate you remembering that I needed some.
[15:41] <rharrison_> opps SpikeUK
[15:41] <edmoore> oh hang on
[15:41] <edmoore> am I too late????
[15:41] <edmoore> SpikeUK:
[15:42] <SpikeUK> Yeo!
[15:42] <edmoore> am I too late?
[15:42] <edmoore> for a 6 pin idc
[15:43] <SpikeUK> edmoore - no sir! Ho
[15:43] <SpikeUK> ...h
[15:43] <edmoore> may I +2?
[15:44] <SpikeUK> .... curse this glide pad! Two IDC sockets! No problems!
[15:46] <edmoore> bbiab
[15:49] <fnoble> farnell have 6way idc connectors
[15:53] <SpikeUK> fnoble really! I could not find them. Do you have a part no / URL?
[15:56] <fnoble> farnell is pretty hard to navigate, but i found p/n 1096979, 1096984
[15:56] <fnoble> (angled or streight)
[15:57] <fnoble> there also some with latches to lock in the plug
[15:59] <SpikeUK> fnoble well spotted sir! We hav
[16:00] <SpikeUK> ...have an account with Farnell! rharrison_ still want ten of each?
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[17:25] <natrium42_> hi
[17:25] <jcoxon> hey
[17:27] <natrium42_> i connected my transceiver to computer yesterday
[17:27] <natrium42_> it's very cool, i can control all functions
[17:28] <jcoxon> nice
[17:28] <natrium42_> and see the s-meter etc
[17:28] <edmoore> natrium42: what protocol?
[17:28] <natrium42_> CI-V
[17:28] <natrium42_> i had a serial to usb board from sparkfun
[17:29] <natrium42_> just had to wire it up to an audio cable, since that's the connector they use
[17:29] <edmoore> i am so getting one
[17:29] <natrium42_> still need to connect the audio to computer though, so that i can decode data
[17:29] <jcoxon> edmoore, haha
[17:29] <edmoore> already budeting this year's spending
[17:30] <natrium42_> :)
[17:30] Action: jcoxon has been offered a free radiometrix sample :-p
[17:31] <natrium42_> haha, nice
[17:31] <natrium42_> they should really give you more than one :P
[17:31] <edmoore> ouch
[17:32] <edmoore> on jcoxon's behalf :p
[17:32] <natrium42_> jcoxon: which rf module did you use for yesterdays launch?
[17:32] <jcoxon> oh thats was a circuit design module - they only do digital
[17:32] <jcoxon> edmoore, ?
[17:32] <edmoore> nuffink
[17:32] <jcoxon> hehe, i think i get it
[17:33] <jcoxon> radiometrix are a lot better
[17:33] <natrium42_> google invited me to give a talk about HABs on the 9th
[17:33] <jcoxon> natrium42_ cool
[17:33] <edmoore> :o
[17:33] <edmoore> that's super-cool
[17:34] <jcoxon> oooo falcon 1 worked
[17:34] <edmoore> which campus?
[17:34] <natrium42_> :)
[17:34] <natrium42_> local
[17:34] <natrium42_> waterloo, canada
[17:34] <edmoore> how local is local?
[17:34] <edmoore> ah cool
[17:34] <edmoore> that is very cool, I must say
[17:34] <natrium42_> town i live in
[17:34] <natrium42_> yeah, looking forward to it
[17:34] <natrium42_> still need to make slides
[17:35] <natrium42_> you will be able to watch it online later on
[17:35] <edmoore> damn right, I will be
[17:35] <edmoore> when is it?
[17:35] <natrium42_> edmoore: is it ok if i show those nice panoramas?
[17:35] <natrium42_> 9th of october
[17:35] <edmoore> natrium42_: would need to ask the other's
[17:35] <edmoore> brb food
[17:35] <natrium42_> ok
[17:41] <natrium42_> i am hungry too :(
[17:41] <jcoxon> hehe
[17:41] <jcoxon> natrium42_, you started classes again yet?
[17:41] <natrium42_> yeah, i did
[17:41] <natrium42_> but only 2 days each week
[17:42] <jcoxon> easy life
[17:42] <natrium42_> so lots of spare time
[17:42] <natrium42_> hehe
[17:42] <jcoxon> i did my first full day back in hospital this term
[17:42] <jcoxon> doing neonatal medicine
[17:42] <jcoxon> little babies and big complicated machines
[17:42] <natrium42_> cool
[17:42] <natrium42_> :D
[17:43] <natrium42_> come to canada
[17:43] <natrium42_> we need more doctors, apparently
[17:43] <jcoxon> there are enough problems to fix here :-)
[17:43] <natrium42_> because ours go to the USA
[17:44] <natrium42_> for more money
[17:44] <jcoxon> oh right
[17:45] <natrium42_> my general doctor is irish
[17:46] <natrium42_> but i have visited him only once i think
[17:46] <edmoore> when is the talk natrium42_ ?
[17:46] <natrium42_> oct 9.
[17:46] <edmoore> oh grand
[17:46] <natrium42_> not sure when it will go online, though
[17:46] <edmoore> better get cracking :)
[17:46] <natrium42_> yes, yes
[17:46] <natrium42_> should be pretty straight forward
[17:48] <natrium42_> edmoore: i should mention this channel :D
[17:48] <edmoore> yes definitely :)
[17:48] <natrium42_> to get more people!11
[17:49] <edmoore> would be good to get some googs around
[17:49] <edmoore> 'how do I put linux on an avr'
[17:49] <natrium42_> yeah, *cough*special hab mode in gearth*cough*
[17:49] <edmoore> oh actually yeah!!
[17:49] <edmoore> yes, some flight profiles in g-earth would be great for a talk
[17:51] <natrium42_> yah, one of mine was featured on the unofficial gearth blog because they liked embedded pics/videos
[17:52] <natrium42_> i am planning to show some ukhas stuff too, but going to ask the relevant person's permission, of course
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[17:53] <edmoore> mention cusf are available for google london talks :p
[17:53] <natrium42_> hehe, sure thing
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[17:55] <natrium42_> Hi Hiena
[17:55] <Hiena> Hi all!
[17:56] <Hiena> How are you?
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> Tired.
[17:56] <natrium42_> good & you?
[17:56] <Hiena> Did you saw the SpaceX flight?
[17:56] Action: SpeedEvil has just driven 130 miles with 30 fenceposts in the back of a micra.
[17:56] <natrium42_> yeah, but not live :(
[17:56] Action: SpeedEvil missed it.
[17:56] <natrium42_> i forgot about it
[17:56] <Hiena> Tired, but i finished the design of the new ion-thruster.
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> Funky.
[17:56] Action: SpeedEvil only has pulsed plasma designs.
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> (and no test system yet)
[17:57] <natrium42_> crazy scientists
[17:57] <natrium42_> :D
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> PPT is damn easy.
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> Couple of electrodes.
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> Bar of propellant like a lipstick.
[17:58] <Hiena> The ion-thruster is same.
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> arc across the face of teh lipstick, ablating propellant.
[17:58] <Hiena> one corona emmiter and a neutralizer grid.
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> Propellant exits stage (see left-hand rule)
[17:59] <Hiena> Guess, my Fanta bottle design would be suitable for some HAB balloon.
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> Ion thrusters won't really work well at high pressure I think.
[18:00] <Hiena> No moving part and a dozen of gramm thrust.
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> hundreds of watts?
[18:01] <Hiena> Only 60. ;)
[18:01] <SpeedEvil> Low ISP then?
[18:01] <Hiena> Need a better coil.
[18:02] Action: SpeedEvil shakes fists at the cruel ISP/specific power equation.
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> The coil is used to create a field to extract the ionised beams?
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> The coil is used to create a field to extract the ionised ions.
[18:09] <Hiena> Nope. The coil is a standard ignition coil to create the high voltage for the emitters.
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right.
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> A gram-scale PSU will be fun.
[18:11] Action: SpeedEvil ponders pezio-transformers.
[18:11] <Hiena> But the effiencity is low due the low voltage (20 something kV). For a better thrust need higher output voltage. My estimation is abou 100-120kV would be enough.
[18:11] <natrium42_> SpeedEvil: are you working on a satellite?
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> ie
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> natrium42_: I have assorted parts.
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> natrium42_: I have no budget really.
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> natrium42_: I have rough plans for a 43 stage to orbit rocket.
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> 4
[18:12] <natrium42_> whoa
[18:12] <natrium42_> that's a lot of stages
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> And some prototype parts.
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> Basic idea is each stage has a mass of 5n (total). n of this mass is the next stage or a parachute to recover.
[18:13] <Hiena> Over that, the corona emitters start glowing and the thrust will drop.
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> And you can test stages before stacking for real.
[18:16] <natrium42_> nice
[18:17] <natrium42_> is this for LEO or up&down?
[18:17] <natrium42_> oh, you did say orbit
[18:17] <natrium42_> :)
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[18:20] Nick change: Ei5GTB_ -> EI5GTB
[18:20] <Hiena> Nothing would be much fun as a Orbit bubblegum box as a payload container. "ISS do you see the Orbit on orbit?"
[18:21] <natrium42_> ...
[18:24] <natrium42_> would it be sponsored by Orbitz?
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> natrium42_: Basically scalable.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> nad: 200g, 1Kg, 5Kg, 25Kg, = 40g to LEO
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> natrium42_: add a 125 and 625Kg stage, and you get 40g to the moon.
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> (well - a bit further)
[18:28] <Hiena> And this calculation shows how pointless the classical rocketry for the space use...
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> Yes, to a degree.
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> Once you're past the moon (energetically) you can efficiently use ion engines.
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> Trying to slog up from 100Km (say) out of earth orbit on ion engines is a problem though.
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[18:31] <SpeedEvil> Especially the Van Halen belts.
[18:32] <Hiena> Exactly, also don't forget the most rocket use the 3/4th of it's fuel at the first 30 km. If i remember correctly this is the area where the aerodynamic laws works well....
[18:32] <SpeedEvil> Well...
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> It really depends.
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> If you're really small, tehn you need to fly up at M0.8 or so till 10Km++
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> Otherwise any extra thrust goes into fighting drag.
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> 30Km is probably a bit low.
[18:34] <Hiena> So wouldn't be much reasonable to going up to HA under the 1M and speed up?
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> HA?
[18:34] <Hiena> High Altitude
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[18:34] <SpeedEvil> Yes - for small rockets.
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> Once you get large enough drag isn't a concern that way.
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> The reason you throttle back is due to structural problems.
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> Speaking very roughly large rockets have >several tons/m^2 of frontal area, so can push their way through.
[18:36] <Hiena> Did you ever hear about the skin friction?
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[18:37] <SpeedEvil> Yes. :)
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[18:38] Nick change: Ei5GTB_ -> EI5GTB
[18:39] <Hiena> Also, if you have a something big, it's possible to configure to gain a lifting surface at the low speed. As you goes up the speed of the 1M is higer and higher. If the structure is well designed possible to fly the whole mission under 1M.
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> Not really if you count gravity losses alas.
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> In most cases if you optimise for size of wing, the result ends up at zero.
[18:42] <natrium42_> gotta run, sorry
[18:42] <natrium42_> lates
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[18:45] <Hiena> The Sanger America Bomber had a same concept. They reentry profile was a skipping stone type for the low heating and structural stress.
[18:48] <Hiena> After the war everyboby was for the ballistic missiles, and when the manned spaceflight started nobody concerned the planes, because the rockets was in hand. And in the race nobody had a time to develop a "spaceplane".
[18:50] <Hiena> At the late '70s the russians started the Spiral program, but they already lost the Moon-race, and they had no enough source to finish it.
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> Hypersonic wings suck AIUI though.
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> So you can't really do low accelleration on the atmosphere meaningfully.
[18:56] <Hiena> Why need hypersonic wigns, if the whole mission flown under supesonic?
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[19:00] <edmoore> gps should make it through a rocket tube shouldn't it
[19:00] <edmoore> wrong forum, sorry. though someone might no - 2mm cardboard
[19:02] <Hiena> edmoore, which type?
[19:02] <edmoore> well, helical ant
[19:03] <edmoore> -144db
[19:03] <Hiena> My Polstar GPS mouse has a problem even with a few layer clothes.
[19:04] <Hiena> Huh, sounds like you have 30 dB better sensitivity.
[19:07] <edmoore> should be ok, I hope
[19:07] <edmoore> afterall it gets through the windshield of my car every time
[19:12] <rocketboy> I did notice that structures very close to ceramic antennas change the tuning - so keep the ant reasonablty away (1mm or so) from the wall
[19:12] <edmoore> ok - it would be at least that I recks
[19:12] <edmoore> 5-10mm
[19:13] <edmoore> in a 38mm body tube. more if bigger tube, obv
[19:13] <rocketboy> stretched plastic sheet over the ant is a no-no - I found out the hard way
[19:13] <edmoore> :)
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: you can't meaningfully use subsonic wings out to significant fractions of the earth radius.
[19:20] <Hiena> Ehhhh...Ok, better, if we stop here. My english is not enough to explain it. There is some conceptual approach which need a little bit different thinking, than the "dashing up and down ".
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: to clarify - you can't keep going at mach 1 if the density of the atmosphere drops too far to support your vehicle at mach 1 with practical wings.
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> Which it will well below 100Km. And 80Km and mach 1 is very far from orbit.
[19:51] <edmoore> natrium42: ping
[19:51] <edmoore> knock yourself out with the panorama
[19:52] <edmoore> but please credit us :)
[19:52] <edmoore> ok, back at 10.30ish
[19:52] <fnoble> natrium42, and James Canvin who put it together
[19:52] <edmoore> that's what I meant to say!
[19:52] <edmoore> christ too much going on
[19:53] <edmoore> us = CUSF and James Canvin - the stitching guru
[19:55] <Hiena> 1. The wings needn't support the whole weight of the vehicle at high altitude. 2. Keeping the speed under 1M is simply due the classic subsonic wings has a blunt leading edge to distribute the heat well, and has a biggest chamber for the maximum structural rigidity. Not to mention the lack of the structural stress. 3. The speed of the 1M is increasing with the altitude, as the density of the air drops.
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> Unless you're counting gravity dropoff (you can't as there is no air), the wings do have to support the whole weight of the vehicle - minus the vertical component of the thrust - which for an ion engine will be appropriately zero.
[19:57] <Hiena> Who is alking about the ion-engines?
[19:57] <edmoore> Hiena: mach dectreses with altitude
[19:57] <edmoore> it's a function of temperature too
[19:57] <edmoore> it's about 250m/s up at 25km
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[19:58] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: I assumed you were talking about... hang on
[19:59] <Hiena> Geeee...
[19:59] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: I can't find the reference.
[20:00] Nick change: edmoore -> edmoore|away
[20:00] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: anyway - mach 1 horizontal wing-supported flight is not helpful for launching conventional rockets with both propellants onboard.
[20:00] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: for burning with the air, it's really debatable.
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: a lot of the proposals start out with 'assume a high performance scramjet that we haven't demonstrated'.
[20:06] <Hiena> edmoore|away, the c=sqrt (C/ro) and the a= sqrt(k*R*T) works only in the standard atmosphere, which is limited up to 15000m.
[20:09] <Hiena> Anyhow, i'm off to cleaning the workshop.
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[21:46] <robert1971> Evening all
[21:47] <robert1971> GP antenna finished off
[21:47] <jcoxon> rootevenin
[21:47] <jcoxon> evening ro
[21:47] <jcoxon> robert1971,
[21:47] <jcoxon> damn
[21:47] <robert1971> :)
[21:47] <jcoxon> lets start again
[21:47] <jcoxon> evening robert1971
[21:47] <robert1971> How you doing jcoxon, is that gumstix coming up for a ride?
[21:47] <jcoxon> maybe
[21:48] <robert1971> Quicky, When you send cameras up in the box what do you use for the window? Perspex?
[21:55] <fnoble> robert1971, usually nothing
[21:55] <fnoble> robert1971, but on nova 8 we used a uv filter for one and a polaroid filter for another
[21:56] <robert1971> Were the filters any good? I'm thinking about truing to reduce haze
[21:56] <robert1971> trying
[21:56] <fnoble> the uv was very good
[21:56] <fnoble> the polaroid was harder to place, im not sure it made that much difference
[21:57] <fnoble> the uv brought out a bit more contrast on the earth i think
[21:58] <fnoble> also a cheap easy way of getting a piece of optical quality coated glass
[21:58] <robert1971> Good point
[21:58] <robert1971> I may get one at the camera shop tomorrow in Leeds. Hoping to keep the box a little warm
[21:59] <rocketboy> I have a number of Haze-1 UV filters from Tiffen - one of the best UV filters according to the specs and reviews
[21:59] <rocketboy> (for sale)
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[23:02] <edmoore> back
[23:07] <fnoble> yo
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[23:22] <Laurenceb_> hello
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> lots of people here :P
[23:22] <edmoore> yep
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> oh I got the bootloader working
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> turns out the uart wasnt working on my avr
[23:23] <Laurenceb_> very odd as it was fresh out of its antistatic bag
[23:25] <Laurenceb_> I've installed the BLIPS bootloader
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[00:00] --- Tue Sep 30 2008