highaltitude.log.20080908

[00:04] <edmoore> gosh patrick moore looks old
[00:05] <fuzzylugnuts> is he of relation?
[00:05] <edmoore> nope
[00:05] <edmoore> he'd make quite a cool great uncle though
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[00:11] <fuzzylugnuts> haha.
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[01:29] <natrium42> hi
[01:37] <ShellEvil> hi.
[01:37] Action: ShellEvil thinks everyone else is asleep.
[01:37] <natrium42> well, it's only 8:37 pm
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[01:42] <natrium42> ?
[01:43] <ShellEvil> I think only 3 here are from oitside the EU
[01:43] <natrium42> hehe
[01:43] <natrium42> but i sleep in the day!
[01:44] Action: ShellEvil wonders WTF is up with his router.
[01:44] Action: ShellEvil reboots it.
[01:47] <natrium42> did it help?
[01:53] <ShellEvil> maybe.
[02:08] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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[02:24] <edmoore> natrium42, ShellEvil I am up!
[02:24] <edmoore> though about to go to bed
[02:24] <edmoore> had a late one last night, being all decadent in London
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[04:51] Action: SpeedEvil does silly numbers.
[04:51] <SpeedEvil> A 25um stainless steel balloon would be about neutrally bouyant at 1m radius.
[04:52] <SpeedEvil> (with hydrogen lift gas)
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[08:08] <robert1971> Morning all! Depending on your TZ of course...
[08:11] <natrium42> hi
[08:11] <gordonjcp> morning
[08:17] <robert1971> natrium42: Nearly finnished off the gpstrack.c code to parse nmea to gpstrack strings. Hope to get it working by the end of today to track my way home.
[08:18] <robert1971> Got side tracked with a 10mw transmitter this w/e and I have managed to get morse code sent from icarus to be revieved on my radio and decoded by the computer
[08:19] Action: robert1971 nods to gordonjcp
[08:21] <natrium42> nice
[08:21] <natrium42> making good progress
[08:22] <robert1971> Nearly there. the 2 gps bit s arrive today
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[08:22] <robert1971> Lassen SKII and a Lassen TrimTrac (GPS/GSM in one)
[08:22] <robert1971> Two independent systems
[08:24] <robert1971> Heilum arrived last Friday. So all in all looking quit good for a teathered launch soon. Thanks for the pointer to UKHAS. Has sped up my progress about 10 fold.
[08:26] <natrium42> hehe
[08:39] <gordonjcp> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/05/darpa_disco_copter/
[08:39] <gordonjcp> ^ tell me something
[08:39] <gordonjcp> now, although I know a wee bit about flying planes and helicopters, and have even done a few hours of the former, I am not a professional aeronautical inventor
[08:39] <gordonjcp> but that just looks like a bloody big gyroscope which will counteract any attempt at steering the damn thing
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[09:27] <jcoxon> robert1971, ping
[09:29] <natrium42> pong
[09:29] <jcoxon> ooo natrium42
[09:29] <natrium42> oh hi there :)
[09:29] <jcoxon> what os are you on right now?
[09:30] <natrium42> ubuntu
[09:30] <jcoxon> do you mind testing something for m
[09:30] <jcoxon> e
[09:30] <jcoxon> *
[09:30] <jcoxon> oop
[09:30] <jcoxon> s
[09:31] <natrium42> sure
[09:31] <jcoxon> oh wait a sec, this isn't going to work as i'm going to need to do some routing through the hub
[09:31] <jcoxon> will have to wait
[09:31] <jcoxon> no worrries then
[09:34] <jcoxon> working on X11 forwarding of truetty
[09:34] <jcoxon> so that remote people could make sure the radio is being tuned
[09:34] <natrium42> hehe, neat
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[09:48] <robert1971> jcoxon
[09:49] <jcoxon> hey
[09:49] <jcoxon> was going to ask you to test something
[09:50] <jcoxon> but its not ready yet
[09:50] <jcoxon> so no worries!
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[10:10] <robert1971> BTW natrium42: What is your real name! I'm going to be embarrased if you say natrium :)
[10:41] <robert1971> natrium42: Found it on an an email you send me.
[10:42] <edmoore> mornin g all
[10:43] <robert1971> moring edmoore
[10:44] <robert1971> Any idea what weight balloon you guys have been using. I'm going to order some from the us today
[10:45] <edmoore> 1.2 normally
[10:45] <edmoore> nova 8 was a 1.5
[10:45] <robert1971> They seem to vary by weight. Thought this affects all the other options.
[10:45] <edmoore> yes, the weight is the weight of latex
[10:45] <robert1971> I'm wondering about the height bit. To get to the top one of those 3kg ones look nice
[10:46] <robert1971> Bit pricy though
[10:46] <edmoore> I would only save a 3kg for very special occassions :)
[10:46] <edmoore> we've never flown one
[10:47] <edmoore> they do get very expensive very quickly - I think they're pretty low demand
[10:47] <robert1971> I'm going to save that for when I'v got psk31 sorted and a couple of flight under the belt
[10:47] <edmoore> 1.2 seems like a good sweet spot - we got the altitude records on 1.2s each time
[10:47] <edmoore> they're made pretty well and consistantly
[10:48] <edmoore> we used to fly a lot of 500s too
[10:48] <robert1971> Which supplier I have Kaymont and Scientific Sales in the US
[10:48] <edmoore> very cheap, and will happily get stuff up to 25km which is perfect for when you're not actually doing a chrome plated photography mission
[10:48] <robert1971> No UK ones that i can see
[10:48] <edmoore> Rocketboy!
[10:49] <edmoore> basically, kaymont are an absolute pig to deal with
[10:49] <edmoore> they won't talk to you if you're not a company, even then they probably won't talk to you
[10:49] <edmoore> so steve set up as a company and has managed to hammer is way in
[10:49] <robert1971> Scientific Sales is click and buy
[10:49] <robert1971> So steve would like the business then
[10:50] <robert1971> Fine by me
[10:50] <edmoore> i think you'll find the pricess better than scientific
[10:50] <robert1971> And local too IE UK
[10:51] <robert1971> Does he have a web page or any thing like that. Email address?
[10:51] <edmoore> scientific sell 1200gs for $110
[10:51] <edmoore> the last ones we bought from steve were £53
[10:52] <edmoore> and that's without risk of customs and import
[10:52] <robert1971> Ok cool steves the man. I'm happy to help a fellow UKHAS out providing that it's not just hassel for him
[10:53] <edmoore> he's not told us it's a hassle yet :)
[10:53] <robert1971> I'll order 3 then 2 1200 and one 1500 keep me quite for a bit
[10:54] <edmoore> ha, that should keep you going yes
[10:54] <robert1971> I have a couple of 500's at home I got earlier. I thought I may use these for the teathered launch
[10:54] <edmoore> i would rate some 500s though too
[10:54] <edmoore> especially if you're doing tethered
[10:54] <edmoore> don't want to blow at 1200 on a tathered
[10:55] <edmoore> blow a*
[10:56] <robert1971> Should I just grab rocketboy on here or do we have an email address for him
[11:03] <robert1971> email sent!
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[11:15] <edmoore> robert1971: grand!
[11:15] <edmoore> jcoxon: morning sir
[11:16] <jcoxon> good morning
[11:21] <edmoore> all well?
[11:46] <jcoxon> yes thanks
[11:50] <jcoxon> okay
[11:50] <jcoxon> i'm cool
[11:50] <jcoxon> i've got truetty in a browser
[12:18] <robert1971> We'll done. What's the link? Or are yo behind a f/w
[12:19] <robert1971> How did you do that?
[12:23] <jcoxon> i'm behind a router right now (which isn't mine to play with)
[12:23] <jcoxon> using weirdx java X11 client
[12:23] <jcoxon> its X11 forwarding
[12:24] <jcoxon> but i'm beginning to think thats its not the best way of doing it
[12:24] <jcoxon> needs lots of testing
[12:31] <gordonjcp> hmm
[12:32] <gordonjcp> I looked at running multimon in ajaxterm
[12:32] <jcoxon> the problem is that i'm testing this on localhost
[12:32] <jcoxon> so i'm not sure how well it'll do on a network
[12:33] <gordonjcp> X over ssh is very slow
[12:33] <robert1971> Parachutes have arrive they're 36 inches but they look mighty small for a 1.5kg payload
[12:35] <gordonjcp> what are the legal requirements for a tethered balloon launch?
[12:35] <jcoxon> hmmmm
[12:35] <jcoxon> gordonjcp, there is a legal limit on the length of the tether
[12:35] <robert1971> It's a kite
[12:35] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: 300m or so, iirc?
[12:35] <jcoxon> its something like that
[12:35] <jcoxon> i can never remember the exact figure
[12:36] <gordonjcp> hhmm
[12:36] <jcoxon> with X over ssh, the actually program is run on the host computer
[12:36] <jcoxon> gordonjcp, it'll be in the Air Traffic regs
[12:37] <gordonjcp> fly a wifi ap to the limit of ethernet cable length...
[12:37] <edmoore> robert1971: panic not
[12:37] <gordonjcp> how long would a balloon stay up at ~300m? Presumably until enough gas seeps out
[12:37] <edmoore> well actually we can do the maths
[12:39] <edmoore> a parachute's Drag (D) = 0.5 * airdensity * velocity^2 * Coefficient-of-drag * effective-parachute-area
[12:39] <gordonjcp> *you* might be able to ;-)
[12:39] <edmoore> the parachute is in equilibrium when it falls, so force up (drag) = force down (weight - m*g)
[12:40] <edmoore> so mg = 0.5*density*vel^2*Cd*A
[12:40] <edmoore> Cd = drag coefficient, a = area
[12:40] <robert1971> http://www.thekitesociety.org.uk/KiteRegs.htm
[12:40] <edmoore> you want to find the velocity it will fall at at sea level (density = 1.22 kg/m^3)
[12:42] <edmoore> so solve for velocity: v = square root [ (2 * mass * g) / (density * Cd * A) ]
[12:42] <edmoore> we need to know A and Cd. For a parachute of your design, Cd is roughly 0.9-1
[12:42] <jcoxon> gordonjcp, it might be easier for me to forward on the audio rather hten the whole program?
[12:43] <edmoore> robert1971: do you have a link to the parachute site?
[12:43] <robert1971> http://spherachutes.com/chart.asp
[12:43] <edmoore> A, the area, needs to be the actual (smaller) frontal area once its inflated, and that depends on if it was constructed flat or conically
[12:44] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: audio from the RX?
[12:44] <gordonjcp> hmm, don't know
[12:44] <jcoxon> yeah
[12:44] <gordonjcp> if it isn't too mangled by the streaming compression it might be fun to be able to hear it
[12:45] <jcoxon> hmmm, perhaps the best system is to have truetty running and then have a vnc login for select people to keep everything tuned
[12:45] <edmoore> ok cool, so a 36" chute has an inflated diameter of 72/pi = 22.91 inches
[12:45] <jcoxon> and then let it upload coords
[12:46] <jcoxon> all they'd have to do would be to login and make sure that the rtty peaks are selected
[12:46] <robert1971> 58.2 cm
[12:46] <edmoore> metricificated = 60cm. so area = 0.3^2*pi = 0.29ish
[12:46] <edmoore> call it 0.3
[12:47] <edmoore> so plugging all that lot into the equation for velocity...
[12:47] <robert1971> 200m/s
[12:47] <robert1971> :)
[12:47] <edmoore> I get 8.9 m/s
[12:48] <edmoore> 200m/s is mach 0.6
[12:48] <edmoore> which seems a bit high for a payload
[12:48] <robert1971> I was joking
[12:48] <robert1971> You left me behind a bit there
[12:48] <edmoore> sorry. I will take my autistic hat off.
[12:48] <edmoore> anyhoo, you get 8.9 m/s, which is a bit speedy but not dire
[12:48] <robert1971> So roughly 1g then 9.8m/s
[12:49] <edmoore> well, 1g is an acceleration rather than a velocity
[12:49] <edmoore> but again, hat off.
[12:49] <robert1971> m/s/s
[12:49] <edmoore> aye
[12:50] <edmoore> now, the payload will have some drag too
[12:50] <edmoore> and for that design of chute, Cd = 1 is a bit conservative
[12:50] <robert1971> All said and done quick but not killer
[12:50] <edmoore> i wouldn't loose sleep - but make sure the bottom is soft
[12:51] <robert1971> I may doc this calculation. I'm not the only bugger on this site that might need this
[12:51] <edmoore> ok, well to neaten it up a bit:
[12:51] <robert1971> 5mm of expanded something
[12:51] <robert1971> 50mm
[12:51] <edmoore> 0.5*density*v^2 is called 'dynamic pressure'
[12:52] <edmoore> it's the pressure you get from movement, as opposed to the static, ambient pressure
[12:52] <edmoore> and it is normally abbreviated to 'q'
[12:52] <edmoore> and 'effective area' is more conventionally 'S' rather than A
[12:52] <edmoore> so mg = qCdS
[12:53] <robert1971> Ok I'll pull this from the logs tonight and doc it with an example
[12:53] <edmoore> dynamic pressure is proportional to the square of velocity, which is why driving fast is so uneconomical, as doubling your speed gives 4 times the drag
[12:53] <robert1971> Thanks for the physics lesson
[12:53] <edmoore> sorry If i'm teaching your gran to suck eggs
[12:54] <jcoxon> bbl
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[12:54] <edmoore> The 'bible' for parachutes is Knacke
[12:54] <edmoore> http://www.aeroconsystems.com/literature/parachute_lit.htm
[12:54] <robert1971> or a small increase in area leads to an great (exponential?) decrease in speed
[12:55] <edmoore> if you ever want some bedtime reading.....
[12:55] <edmoore> robert1971: yup
[12:55] <edmoore> so a 72 inch chute would give you a roughly 2.25 m/s descent rate
[12:55] <edmoore> but i can't imagine it would be very stable
[12:56] <edmoore> other useful tips - stick the chute up and away from the payload so that it is not affected by forebody wake
[12:56] <edmoore> that will reduce drag and increase instability
[12:56] <edmoore> forebody wake being all the crap and turbulence coming from the payload underneath
[12:56] <robert1971> I think natrium42 got hit with para problems on his seconf flight
[12:57] <edmoore> nova 8 was pretty unstable too both by parachute design and forebody wake
[12:57] <robert1971> Any thought on payload to balloon lenghth. 15 meters was going to do it for me
[12:57] <edmoore> sounds perfect - I actually think it's the more the merrier
[12:58] <edmoore> reduces the amplitude of the osciallations
[12:58] <robert1971> I may go for 20. Like a grand/f clock
[12:58] <edmoore> :)
[12:59] <edmoore> it just looks nicer flying aswell I think
[12:59] <robert1971> Faulcalts Pendulum etc...
[12:59] <edmoore> i can't imagine faulcault would be able to compete with wind sheer on this'n
[13:00] <robert1971> I think he trys to avoid any effects other than the earths rotation if I remember by using a rather large mass
[13:01] <edmoore> yes, and being fairly low underground and vibration free and everything else
[13:01] <robert1971> Right I had better do some work. Not all of us are on summer break :)
[13:01] <edmoore> most of the ones you see in museums are driven
[13:01] <edmoore> i.e., fake
[13:01] <edmoore> they're basically impossible to do nowadays
[13:01] <edmoore> unless you're completely out of the way. certainly no chance in central london!
[13:01] <robert1971> Why's that?
[13:02] <robert1971> Vibration traffic etc?
[13:02] <edmoore> too much vibration - a tube passing underneath has about 10 times the force of the thing you're trying to detect
[13:02] <edmoore> it completely swamps it
[13:03] <robert1971> I thought they showed the earth rotating and it would do a full circle in 24 hours. Thats my understanding?
[13:03] <robert1971> Quite possibly wrong
[13:03] <edmoore> that is correct
[13:03] <edmoore> *but* they need such still conditions for the gravitational forces to show up that they're more or less impossible to actually do
[13:04] <robert1971> I guess the bigger the mass the better ideally in a vacum
[13:05] <edmoore> yep
[13:05] <edmoore> and it mongolia
[13:05] <edmoore> in*
[13:05] <edmoore> or somewhere else infrastructureless
[13:05] <edmoore> that's probably not word
[13:05] <robert1971> :)
[13:05] <robert1971> I like it perhaps OED will put it in
[13:08] <edmoore> I might begin construction of our new chute today
[13:08] <edmoore> I'm expecting it to be a bit of an ordeal
[13:11] <robert1971> No shit. You making that think to open up at mac 1 or something
[13:11] <robert1971> I hope you or your misses is good at sewing
[13:11] <edmoore> ha no, it won't be designed for mac
[13:11] <edmoore> it's going to be the main for badger truck
[13:12] <edmoore> and it's designed to open gently
[13:12] <edmoore> and be stable
[13:12] <edmoore> it's not the most efficient design, mass-for-drag, but it has some lovely characteristics
[13:13] <edmoore> aeroconn systems (you will like it :) ) has some fun stuff
[13:14] <edmoore> including some mach rated x-forms chutes
[13:14] <edmoore> we've given this place a fair bit of cash http://www.aeroconsystems.com/index.html
[13:14] <edmoore> really really really good stuff, odds and sods
[13:15] <edmoore> most aimed at rockets, but lots of interesting stuff - I've gonnte show you these chutes, 3 of which are in my shed - http://www.aeroconsystems.com/chutes/p72in_inflated.jpg
[13:15] <edmoore> really beautiful
[13:15] <edmoore> and quite stable
[13:16] <edmoore> so you see there a similar principle to what's happening for badger truck - a little drogue to bring it down at about 30 m/s
[13:16] <edmoore> then deploy the larger main at about 2km
[13:16] <edmoore> all to reduce drift on the way down
[13:16] <robert1971> That is cool
[13:17] <robert1971> is that the inflator chute above it
[13:17] <edmoore> that's the drogue
[13:18] <edmoore> and the deployment bag for the orange one just beneath the drogue
[13:18] <edmoore> so the drogue both does the initial drop, and deploys the main
[13:18] <robert1971> How does the main get deployed
[13:19] <robert1971> alt sensor?
[13:19] <edmoore> it's packe in that little bag/tube thing beneath the drogue
[13:19] <edmoore> and I don't know the details, but I assume that that box/bag has a little pyrotechnic link attaching it to the main payload at the bottom
[13:20] <edmoore> when that link gets blows, the drogue pulls the bag away. the lines to the parachute become taught, then the main pulls out of the bag
[13:20] <robert1971> Yep and then jettison at say 2km
[13:20] <edmoore> that way all the lines are straight and deployed before the main tries to inflate, and that reduces the risk of tangling
[13:20] <edmoore> that's exactly how badger truck will do it anyway
[13:21] <edmoore> it's pretty standard
[13:21] <edmoore> slightly easier than mortars too
[13:21] <robert1971> What is the badger truck I have heard this mentioned a few times. Is there a link
[13:21] <edmoore> oh sorry. it's going to be our general purpose payload
[13:22] <edmoore> continuing the badger theme
[13:22] <edmoore> just a reliable work horse for ballooning
[13:22] <robert1971> Not a truck in the conventional sense then
[13:22] <edmoore> no :)
[13:22] <robert1971> ie no wheels. I thought we were talking lander here
[13:22] <edmoore> but i guess it's the same idea they had when they conceived shuttle, only about 10 orders of magnitude smaller in scope
[13:23] <edmoore> a reusable and simple fly-a-lot and versatile thing
[13:23] <robert1971> This will be the rocket launch platform then i guess
[13:23] <edmoore> hold on, I can show you a v early conceptual design which is no longer very accurate
[13:23] <edmoore> ah no
[13:23] <edmoore> that will be very specialise
[13:23] <edmoore> specialist*
[13:23] <edmoore> and very much bigger
[13:23] <edmoore> that's going to be a large carbon fibre truss structure
[13:24] <edmoore> as a th launch tower
[13:24] <robert1971> How many kgs are you going to be sending up. Let me know I'll watch from indoors.
[13:24] <edmoore> 4kg rocket, about 10kg all up
[13:24] <edmoore> and not from the uk :)
[13:24] <robert1971> Death valley etc ...
[13:25] Action: ShellEvil points out that the outer space act applies to UK citezens operating overseas.
[13:25] <robert1971> Make some other bugger let go of the rope
[13:25] <ShellEvil> Even following orders is not a defense.
[13:26] <ShellEvil> Basically - as I read the statute - they can in theory prosecute you if you are involved in a space shuttle launch.
[13:26] <ShellEvil> A _really_ widely drawn bit of legislation.
[13:27] <ShellEvil> And the fees to apply properly are 6K. Just for the application.
[13:27] <edmoore> yep we'll find a way round/through it
[13:28] <gordonjcp> (e)
[13:28] <gordonjcp> requiring the licensee to conduct his operations in such a
[13:28] <gordonjcp> way as to-
[13:28] <gordonjcp> (i)
[13:28] <gordonjcp> prevent the contamination of outer space or adverse
[13:28] <gordonjcp> changes in the environment of the earth
[13:28] <gordonjcp> :-/
[13:28] <gordonjcp> that kicks the legs from under my orbiting microwave death ray
[13:29] <edmoore> bloody bean counters
[13:29] <robert1971> Where's the fun
[13:29] <robert1971> edmoore: http://www.robertharrison.org/images/icarus/para.jpg
[13:30] <edmoore> aaargh need more ram
[13:30] <edmoore> booting up windows
[13:30] <robert1971> Couldn't resist using radio as scale
[13:30] <edmoore> haha. it's still loading
[13:30] <edmoore> whilst hdd goes ballistic
[13:30] <edmoore> swapfiling its way to an early death
[13:30] <robert1971> It's a biggy I didn't scale it
[13:31] <edmoore> looks very nicely made
[13:31] <edmoore> so what's the rough footprint of your payload?
[13:31] <edmoore> in the 'falling' axis
[13:31] <edmoore> that really is a nice radio...
[13:32] <robert1971> Still in the construction phase. Should be something like 20cm my 30cm base about 6-8cm high
[13:32] <robert1971> by*
[13:32] <robert1971> I love my radio
[13:33] <edmoore> cool - so you'll have a decent bit of drag from that too
[13:33] <robert1971> That's one of the best toys i have got out of this so far. Though the gumstix is quite neat and I really like the avr chips
[13:33] <edmoore> collecting toys is one of the best bits
[13:33] <edmoore> as is getting the photos on your laptop by the side of the road once you've found it
[13:34] <robert1971> Yep I'm looking forward to all that. Vidoe and Camera on standby.
[13:35] <robert1971> I'm hoping to get the BBC look north to film the release and retrive we have a contact in there and they might cover it depending on the other local news
[13:35] <edmoore> I really want to see these things come down by parachute
[13:35] <edmoore> oh cool
[13:36] <robert1971> Don't really know whether to caught the media. May backfire when payload kills granny
[13:37] <edmoore> that's why I sometimes think it's better to do it posthumously
[13:37] <edmoore> though that's not the best choice of word
[13:37] <robert1971> True. I'll settle for anonymously unless I have a heart attack
[13:38] <edmoore> *really* need to get this parafoil stuff sorted
[13:40] <robert1971> Ed i'm going to have to do some work. So I'm going to go silent. So far today I have worked for 2 hrs on my C gpstrack.c code and ordered some balloon. Opened parachutes and chatted on here. Time to start the day job of ohh exciting title IT Director :)
[13:40] <edmoore> haha. I'm enjoying life on holiday!
[13:40] <edmoore> but ok, good luck. I'm off to replace my fountain pen
[13:40] <robert1971> Yep I could do with no family commitments and 3 month summer holiday
[13:41] <robert1971> But then I'd have no money to spend on kit
[13:41] <edmoore> this is my first day of holiday (I didn't count the weekend) and it's good. should do it more often
[13:42] <robert1971> Yep you have been busy doing your sims. I noticed how quite you were on here during all that hard work :)
[13:42] <edmoore> :p
[13:42] <robert1971> ttfn chat later r
[13:42] <edmoore> cya
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[14:01] Action: SpeedEvil looks meaningfully at a roll of aluminium foil.
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[15:39] <mc-> zeusbot, why aren't you logging?
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[16:38] <ShellEvil> edmoore|away: I could see no way round the legislation that I looked at. It's pretty comprehensive. However, universities are exempt from the fees.
[16:38] <ShellEvil> Makes the 'sex tourism' legislation look weak.
[16:58] <edmoore|away> hi ShellEvil - yep, that provisionally sounds like a reasonable way in
[17:06] <edmoore|away> ShellEvil: just reading the text of the act
[17:06] <edmoore|away> i get the impression it is just for orbital stuff
[17:06] <robert1971> edmoore|away: How did the radiometrix modem do on nova1?
[17:06] <edmoore|away> given they require you to supply all the orbital paramaters during application
[17:06] <edmoore|away> robert1971: not so great, I understand
[17:06] <edmoore|away> the proviso is that I was not at the launch
[17:07] <edmoore|away> but it was a very different system to what we've used since
[17:07] <robert1971> Support at radiometrix suggested using it and to check out nova1 which made me smile
[17:08] <edmoore|away> ha
[17:08] Nick change: edmoore|away -> edmoore
[17:08] <ShellEvil> edmoore: IIRC if you break 100Km - but I'm not certain about that.
[17:08] <edmoore> i would recommend 2 onwards
[17:08] <edmoore> brb
[17:08] <ShellEvil> edmoore: orbital is of course covered.
[17:09] <ShellEvil> (consider that you can get non-orbital moon launches)
[17:09] <ShellEvil> On another topic. Aluminium foil balloons don't actually look quite insane.
[17:09] <ShellEvil> 15um foil is readily available in quite large rolls.
[17:10] <ShellEvil> Sure - it's as heavy as 45um or so plastic - and will tear lots easier, and folding and sealing is a bit more annoying.
[17:11] <ShellEvil> But has of course a tiny amount of the gas permeability, and UV isn't a problem.
[17:13] <ShellEvil> And it's annoyingly narrow of course.
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[17:18] <edmoore> the welding would be the pain for me
[17:19] <edmoore> i guess double sided tape would work
[17:19] <robert1971> Fold and tape
[17:22] <ShellEvil> glue
[17:22] <ShellEvil> hot-glue thread and a couple of hot rollers
[17:23] <edmoore> hot glue on ali doesn't sound like much fun
[17:23] <ShellEvil> squeeze it out to a micron by a centimeter or so.
[17:23] <ShellEvil> It works fine actually.
[17:25] <ShellEvil> Hmm. 11um 60cm*45m
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[17:45] <natrium42> ShellEvil, you're still crazy :D
[17:49] <ShellEvil> 6 quid for enough foil to make a 1.5kg 4m dia balloon isn't that bad though.
[17:49] <natrium42> is it some kind of reinforced foil?
[17:49] <ShellEvil> No.
[17:50] <ShellEvil> It will be 'fun' to deploy.
[17:50] <natrium42> regular kitchen aluminium foil rips if you sneeze
[17:50] <natrium42> not very robust at all
[17:50] <ShellEvil> No, it's not.
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[17:57] <natrium42> haha, this thread is filled with wtf --> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2581
[17:58] <natrium42> "Right, the plane cannot fly (assuming no wind). Since the wheel movement is matched by the treadmill, no air current is flowing over the wing and no lift is generated"
[17:58] <natrium42> XD
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[18:02] <natrium42> edmoore, if you need a good laugh --> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2581
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[18:03] <natrium42> lul
[18:04] <ShellEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUnwAubs_70
[18:04] <ShellEvil> You'd think they could look.
[18:06] <natrium42> hehe
[18:08] <ShellEvil> http://www.xkcd.com/ Still genius.
[18:15] Action: ShellEvil ponders.
[18:16] <ShellEvil> Make a circle of circumference D. Fold it into 16ths, to make a wedge.
[18:16] <ShellEvil> glue two together and trim to make 7/8ths of a circle.
[18:16] <ShellEvil> While still folded.
[18:18] <ShellEvil> Glue together 14 strips of foil, fold into zigzag to match wedge, glue to cone and glue at bottom. this gets you a sort of bulgy cone, that's quite easy to make.
[18:20] <ShellEvil> And should store ready for deployment in a moderately small volume.
[18:21] <gordonjcp> hah, that's still going?
[18:22] <gordonjcp> I asked my Mum that one and she thought about it for a second and said "of course it won't matter if the plane is on a treadmill, it'll take off if the airflow is fast enough"
[18:23] <gordonjcp> and she's sufficiently non-technical to require me to make a 450-mile round trip to reset a circuit breaker
[18:23] <natrium42> haha
[18:23] <natrium42> the idiocy on this thread is staggering
[18:24] <gordonjcp> I can see the point that people are making about being able to accelerate the treadmill to match the speed of the aircraft
[18:24] <gordonjcp> but eventually you're going to overcome the friction in the wheel bearings
[18:25] <gordonjcp> ie. if you can move the treadmill backwards fast enough to counteract the aircraft's thrust
[18:28] <natrium42> yes, that's possible
[18:28] <natrium42> however, it's probably much faster than take-off speed
[18:30] <ShellEvil> And will (usually) make the wheels explode)
[18:34] <Shanuson> if that treadmill moves fast enough, that friction is counteraccting the trust of the engines, the wheel would get distroyed, so would be the landinggear after that, and then the whole plain, so it wont lift off
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[18:35] <natrium42> haha
[18:35] <gordonjcp> Shanuson: excellent point
[18:35] <Shanuson> but i dont know why that treadmill should be of infinite length
[18:35] <gordonjcp> I described it in terms of a Cessna 172 earlier
[18:36] <natrium42> it's a mobius strip!
[18:36] <gordonjcp> ie. you'd need the belt to be moving at 140-150mph for the aircraft to be stationary, but the wheel bearings would likely fail
[18:36] <Shanuson> we could discuss what happens to the plain when the landinggear is distroyed and the body make contact with that reeeeeally fast running treadmill
[18:36] <gordonjcp> Shanuson: clue - it won't fly backwards
[18:37] <Shanuson> i mean, if the plain starts moving relativly to the ground , than it will lift off, if it is not moving, than that treadmill only needs to be as long as the plain
[18:38] <Shanuson> *then
[18:38] <gordonjcp> Shanuson: s/ground/air/
[18:39] <Shanuson> well ground/air , thats not the point if thers no wind
[18:42] <natrium42> there's a lot of hot air in that thread :P
[18:42] <gordonjcp> aha, but what about the Magnus effect of that rotating belt?
[18:43] <Shanuson> it's a not well defind probleme
[18:43] <natrium42> haha, good point, hmm...
[18:44] <ShellEvil> gordonjcp: and frame dragging.
[18:45] <natrium42> gordonjcp, you also forgot relativistic frame-dragging
[18:45] <natrium42> d'oh
[18:45] <natrium42> ShellEvil wins this one
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[19:49] <robert1971> Evening all
[19:49] <SpikeUK> Hi robert1971!
[19:49] <robert1971> It's a very polite channel this one :)
[19:49] <SpikeUK> Absolutely old boy ;-)
[19:50] <robert1971> Evening RocketBoyv1: I sent you an email today re balloons I haven't checked my email this eveing so not sure if you got it
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[19:53] <robert1971> Just got to put the children to bed
[19:53] <robert1971> bbiab
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[19:57] <natrium42> robert1971, he also has a site afaik
[20:01] <RocketBoyv1> robert1971; Just replied
[20:15] <natrium42> oh, there he is :)
[20:16] <robert1971> Back, The wife wants me to spend an hour with her tonight so I had better as I have been doing alot of balloon stuff recently
[20:17] <robert1971> RocketBoyv1: I'll read reply now
[20:18] <natrium42> robert1971, but this is more important!
[20:18] <natrium42> nah, j/k, irc is dangerous
[20:18] <robert1971> I know. Esp. this close to launch
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[20:22] <robert1971> RocketBoyv1: Have sent reply and order. Will pay by PayPal or Bank Transfer what ever you prefer.
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[22:53] <Laurenceb_> hi folks
[22:53] <Laurenceb_> I havent been around much lately, its been chaos here
[22:53] <Laurenceb_> there was a huge flash flood on saturday
[22:53] <SpeedEvil> Oh Noes!
[22:54] <Laurenceb_> crazy stuff, there were cars floating down the streets
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> Was your secret underground lair flooded?
[22:54] <Laurenceb_> hehe
[22:54] <Laurenceb_> a friend of ours had his van destroyed
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> Does insurance cover that?
[22:54] <Laurenceb_> I'm ok, but narrowly avoided a huge falling pine tree
[22:54] <Laurenceb_> no, he had 3rd party only :-(
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> Ouch.
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> Any property damage?
[22:56] <Laurenceb_> not too much
[22:56] <Laurenceb_> they have flood barriers
[22:56] <Laurenceb_> sainsburys was trashed
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> I looked at the hydrology - and it'd have to be damn near noahs flood to get me. There is a 1-2m wide/deep stream about 100m away - but it'd have to rise by some 20m to get here.
[22:57] <Laurenceb_> I was loading rubble onto a trailer - we were parked under a ~30meter scots pine tree and I heard a clicking sound
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> And it's 120m above the ocean.
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> Eeek.
[22:57] <Laurenceb_> it was getting more and more frequenct
[22:57] <Laurenceb_> I couldnt work it out
[22:58] <Laurenceb_> then it sort of morfed into a splintering sound so I got out of there asap
[22:58] <SpeedEvil> Did it fall in the same direction?
[22:58] <Laurenceb_> the trunk missed the car by just a cm
[22:58] <Laurenceb_> must have been the weight of water on the needles, there was hardly any wind
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> Narrow escapes FTW.
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> Also maybe undercutting.
[22:59] <Laurenceb_> the ground was extremely waterlogged
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> And in cities cable companies chop roots on one side to make it very unstable.
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> nah there was a garden on the uprooted side
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> Glad you're not flooded anyway. I'm trying to fix my roof ATM - waiting on a weather window.
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> Need to go over the gable with a skim of 25.4mm or so concrete to waterproof it as the old skin has blown.
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> And bemoaning the price of lead.
[23:02] <Laurenceb_> we had some stolen
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> If I'd bought it at the time I thought - Hmm - need to do that at some time in the future' - it'd have been 1/4 the price.
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> Low enough crime area and teeny enough amount I don't think it's a risk.
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> :/
[23:03] <Laurenceb_> we thought so as well
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> Much?
[23:03] <Laurenceb_> then we discovered there was a huge cannabis factory a few doors down
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
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[23:04] <Laurenceb_> and I wondered why there was extratherm over the windows :P
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> Did you get any reflective mylar? :)
[23:05] <Laurenceb_> the police took it all away
[23:05] <Laurenceb_> bbl
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> wave.
[23:11] Action: SpeedEvil goes to prototype a subscale Al balloon.
[23:15] <wickerwaka> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/08/the-big-picture-hurricanes/
[00:00] --- Tue Sep 9 2008