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[01:04] <fuzzylugnuts> robert1971: what kind of antenna are you going to have for you 817?
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[01:15] Action: SpeedEvil wonders if anyones investigated PSK31 for accoustic modem usage.
[01:22] <fuzzylugnuts> a modem at 31bps?
[01:23] <fuzzylugnuts> porn would take forever to load, unless it was pixel-porn
[01:25] <SpeedEvil> :)
[01:25] <SpeedEvil> I was more thinking of key exchange with teeny things.
[01:25] <fuzzylugnuts> Oh....
[01:26] <fuzzylugnuts> of course...*totally does not have porn on his DS*
[01:32] <fuzzylugnuts> : )
[01:38] <fuzzylugnuts> oh yeah, I got another bottle of gin tonight.
[01:54] <fuzzylugnuts> Ok, laters, buds coming over
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[08:08] <robert1971> Yawn
[08:09] <robert1971> Just google radiometrix rtty and edmoore and jcoxon are in the top two hits
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[10:00] <robert1971> I love morse code
[10:31] Nick change: jn1 -> jnd
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[12:11] <robert1971> I love morse
[12:11] <robert1971> edmoore: it works
[12:11] <edmoore> hooray!
[12:11] <robert1971> I can't do rtty as I cant get the 170Hz variation
[12:12] <robert1971> But morse is working like a dream
[12:12] <robert1971> BTW did you have a good prom?
[12:15] <robert1971> I know a whole lot more about USB and LSB and I know what happens when I'm upsidedown
[12:16] <edmoore> prom was great
[12:16] <edmoore> really enjoyed it
[12:17] <edmoore> bit of a trapse home this morning though to get back from some friends coming round for lunch
[12:17] <edmoore> overslept where I was staying in Stratford
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[12:19] <Laurenceb> hi everyone
[12:19] <robert1971> Any great advantage og rtty over cw other than speed
[12:20] <Ei5GTB_> you don't have to learn rtty :P
[12:20] <Ei5GTB_> but you need a computer
[12:20] <robert1971> cwget is my new friend
[12:21] <robert1971> :)
[12:21] <Ei5GTB_> heh
[12:21] <robert1971> hi Ei5GTB_
[12:21] <Ei5GTB_> hai
[12:22] <edmoore> robert1971: the software we've come across seems to decode morse a lot less robustly
[12:22] <edmoore> but equally you can decode it by ear
[12:23] <robert1971> The works @@ck and that come to mind
[12:23] <edmoore> rtty is the only thing so far we've used that is just set and forget
[12:23] <robert1971> Good point. PSK31 the target
[12:24] <robert1971> Some geezer at the ham club I went to yeaterday said we should be able to get streaming video from 40k
[12:24] <robert1971> I thold him to make the board and we'll send it up
[12:24] <robert1971> told *
[12:24] <Ei5GTB_> 40k? streaming vid?
[12:25] <robert1971> 40,000 meters
[12:25] <Ei5GTB_> oh, ok
[12:25] <edmoore> robert1971: a noble target
[12:25] <robert1971> I can't remember if he said sstv or such like
[12:25] <Ei5GTB_> though you meany a 40 kb/s link :P
[12:25] <edmoore> yeah you meet all sorts who say that kind of stuff
[12:25] <edmoore> hd video 200 miles away from 10mW
[12:26] <robert1971> Like I said I told him to make the board :)
[12:26] <edmoore> said by a very fat and panting man at a rocket convention once
[12:26] <edmoore> i think there's shannon and there's real life
[12:27] <robert1971> I'm pretty excited watching my K -.- being printed out by cw over the down link form icarus in the greenhouse
[12:27] <robert1971> from*
[12:27] <robert1971> I'm easily pleased
[12:29] <Ei5GTB_> pink floyd - one slip AMAZING
[12:29] <robert1971> I rate pink floyd
[12:29] Nick change: Laurenceb -> Laurenceb|away
[12:31] <robert1971> Do you need the whole antenna outside the payload? Or just most of it. I could make a small coax connector I guess
[12:32] <Ei5GTB_> you rate pink floyd?
[12:34] <edmoore> robert1971: yeah, make a small coax
[12:34] <edmoore> then do the best antenna installation you can
[12:35] <edmoore> keeping the ground plane orthogonal to the antenna is important
[12:35] <edmoore> but do it in a way that won't kill someone if it lands on it (i.e don't make an antenna out of brass rods)
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[15:23] <SpeedEvil> If it's low freq, a hanging wire is good
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[17:51] <robert1971> Made it back from morecambe with the cylinder trolly. Morse transmitter still transmitting
[17:52] <jcoxon_> robert1971, radio expert now?
[17:52] <jcoxon_> :-p
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[17:56] <jcoxon__> hmmm this internet connection is being weird
[18:01] <robert1971> jcoxon: no not at all. I gave up on rtty as I couldn't see how to vary the freqenct by 170hz between the mark and the space. Left a call with the tech support guys at radiometrix
[18:02] <robert1971> CW is cool though. I think it's pretty great when that first text message makes it over the either. I'm going to doc. this for others as it's not hard but not obviouse.
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[18:59] <gordonjcp> robert1971: why couldn't you do rtty?
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[19:18] Action: robert1971 nods to edmoore
[19:19] <edmoore> evening
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[19:19] <robert1971> Your guests gone now. I'v had that TX on all day on 2 AA batteries and it's still going strong.
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[19:20] <robert1971> I can't belive that little bugger can transmit over 40km
[19:20] <edmoore> more like 400 :)
[19:21] <Hiena> Ehem... You would suprised on 36kHz. That little thing could makes 400km with 14mW.
[19:21] <robert1971> That's is kind of amazing to me
[19:22] <Hiena> We used 36mW to sharing datas over 80 km.
[19:22] <robert1971> Hiena: Greets... I' going to look at the other wavelengths as an option. Given I can recieve them
[19:22] <edmoore> 36khz!?
[19:23] <robert1971> But I bet the antennae need to be bigger for the lower frequencies
[19:23] <edmoore> that's a 2km antenna :)
[19:23] <Hiena> Yup. Very long wave. Only problem the lenght of the antenna.
[19:23] <edmoore> you would only need a DAC
[19:23] <edmoore> that's kind of cool
[19:23] <robert1971> There you go... Be like a portugues man of war
[19:24] <Hiena> My wire was 300m, my pal was more lucky, he totaled 1.2km.
[19:24] <Hiena> My PA was a BD139, ;)
[19:25] <Hiena> It had a serial resistor at the collector keeping it low power.
[19:26] <edmoore> it would work pretty well for balloons actually I guess
[19:26] <edmoore> have the payload hand 300m under the balloon
[19:26] <edmoore> and that line can be the antenna
[19:27] <Hiena> Also, damn easy to measure, because it's almost in the sound frequency range.
[19:28] <Hiena> You could measure the antenna current with a better multimeter.
[19:29] <edmoore> yeah
[19:29] <edmoore> is there licensing for that end of the "spectrum"?
[19:31] <edmoore> because something like 500khz would let us get some decent data rates (9.6kbps) and we could throw a watt at it
[19:31] <Hiena> Dunno. I was alway a pirate, but nobody complained. I kept my output crispy as possible. And also 10-100mW is not a big power. ;)
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[19:34] <SpeedEvil> yes
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> 500KHz is _well_ within the licensed bands
[19:34] <gordonjcp> UK Foundation licence lets you use 136kHz
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> IIRC 134KHz may be hamable
[19:34] <Hiena> Yup. 136kHz is not so crowded.
[19:35] <gordonjcp> 135.7kHz to 137.8kHz
[19:35] <gordonjcp> I have the bandplan in front of me just now
[19:38] <ShellEvil> And under 30KHz? is license free.
[19:40] <gordonjcp> anything's licence free if you're QRP enough
[19:42] <edmoore> gordonjcp: what's the bottom freq they care about?
[19:42] <edmoore> i.e. at what point is it anyones?
[19:42] <ShellEvil> Actually
[19:43] <ShellEvil> isn't it 30Hz - not 30KHz - the official bottom
[19:46] <gordonjcp> edmoore: not sure really
[19:46] <gordonjcp> I've always worked on the basis that if it's too quiet to bother anyone, no-one with bother about it
[19:46] <gordonjcp> otoh I've also run a linear on 11m with so much drive the anodes were glowing and it set fire to the coax
[19:46] <gordonjcp> ShellEvil: will know what I'm talking about
[19:47] <robert1971> I'v got to earn some man points so going to sort children out laters
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[19:50] <ShellEvil> The UK Frequency Allocation Table covers the radio spectrum from 9 kHz to 275 GHz. It is published by Ofcom on behalf of the National Frequency Planning Group, a sub-committee of the Cabinet Official Committee on UK Spectrum Strategy.
[19:52] <ShellEvil> http://www.roke.co.uk/download/datasheets/uk-frequency-allocations.pdf
[19:52] <ShellEvil> is a pretty picture
[19:53] <edmoore> ok
[19:54] <edmoore> so now begins the design of the 8.9khz 3W 1.2kbps tx
[19:54] <ShellEvil> have to be lower
[19:54] <ShellEvil> otherwise major leak
[19:55] <ShellEvil> I do wonder what you could do with a 10Km vertical antenna.
[19:57] <edmoore> well balloons would be a fun way to test it
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[19:59] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.aerostar.com/pdf/Optimum_Designs_Superpressure_Balloons_2002.PDF
[20:00] <ShellEvil> I found the ideal material for that earlier.
[20:00] <fuzzylugnuts> it looks like spheres are alot easier to make than natural shape balloons
[20:00] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah?
[20:00] <fuzzylugnuts> the stuff from mcmaster?
[20:01] <ShellEvil> The question is how do you weld 25 micron stainless :)
[20:01] <fuzzylugnuts> with laserbeams from your eyes
[20:01] <fuzzylugnuts> zzzzzzzzzzzzZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
[20:01] <fuzzylugnuts> I'd thing a roller-spotwelder would do it
[20:02] <ShellEvil> Yeah - superpressure you're pretty much stuck with spherical.
[20:02] <ShellEvil> Unless you want to go into complex shapes and nonisotensile (?) materials.
[20:03] <fuzzylugnuts> the natural shape was too complicated for me, but the sphere's gores are nice and symetrical. The question now is how the arc of the gore related to sphere diameter and number of gores.
[20:04] <fuzzylugnuts> I htink the diameter is irrelevant, and really the number of gores only plays the part
[20:06] <ShellEvil> At least the shape is easy to calculate.
[20:06] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
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[20:28] <fuzzylugnuts> wow. rediculously easy.
[20:29] <fuzzylugnuts> as soon as I get back from travel, I'll make a little model one
[20:42] <fuzzylugnuts> You fellas that do Wiki.... is it hard? I'd like to do something like that so I can post all the schematics and stuff I do
[20:46] <edmoore> not too tricky, though I am guilty for not doing it enough
[20:46] <fuzzylugnuts> ah, ok
[20:46] <edmoore> am going to put all the badger board v2 stuff up there though
[20:47] <edmoore> building super pressure balloons would be awesome
[20:47] <edmoore> but as a word of caution...
[20:47] <edmoore> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/aurora.php
[20:47] <edmoore> that little proof of concept model took about 300 man hours
[20:48] <fuzzylugnuts> the natural shape one?
[20:48] <fuzzylugnuts> or all in genral
[20:48] <edmoore> yeah
[20:48] <fuzzylugnuts> ah
[20:48] <edmoore> the natural shape one
[20:48] <edmoore> with many gores
[20:49] <edmoore> and with super pressure balloons, what with the stresses in general being much higher, you can't really cut corners like we're finding we can with the zero pressures
[20:50] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm going to vent it still, I think. the shape is just alot easier to make than the natual shape ones
[20:50] <edmoore> aye that's true
[20:50] <fuzzylugnuts> luckily my livingroom is big
[20:51] <edmoore> :)
[20:51] Action: SpeedEvil pictures the VAB.
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> With sofas.
[20:51] <fuzzylugnuts> the kapton tape to bind the mylar is very promising though. I hope it works out ok because I have an endless supply of the tape
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> I need to have a play with joining PVC film.
[20:52] <fuzzylugnuts> neither the mylar or kapton stretches much, so they don't peel off of eachother. If I add tape to the other side, it'll be very very strong
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> As 4p/m^2 is a nice number.
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> As with all tapes, creep may be a bitch.
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> Though that'll be lots less of a problem at altitude.
[20:53] <fuzzylugnuts> creep as in slowly pulling the adhesive away?
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> yes
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> movement due to the adhesive being a liquid under constant tension
[20:54] <fuzzylugnuts> when its balls are frozen off at altitude I doubt that will be a prob
[20:55] <fuzzylugnuts> though I am going to put these really thin solar cells on the outside of the payload to drive a heater inside. Li-Th-Cl batteries do OK in cold weather, but their capacity does drop to nearly 1/5 at -30C
[20:56] <fuzzylugnuts> brb, getting clothes out of dryer
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> Does capacity actually drop - or does it simply limit teh available capacity?
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> Also - you can make a reasonable solar heater with a sealed coke bottle, with a black payload inside it.
[21:00] <fuzzylugnuts> back.
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> limit the available capacity at a given current draw I mean.
[21:00] <fuzzylugnuts> It just limits the available capacity
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> what cells?
[21:00] <fuzzylugnuts> the batteries or the solar ones?
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> You scored some of the good stuff, or jsut normal commercial solar?
[21:01] <fuzzylugnuts> oh, they are some ones I found on ebay. Pretty decent efficiency on them
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> 15%ish?
[21:02] <fuzzylugnuts> I dunno, I just compare them to the cells I've used before
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> It's a pity that thermal conductance of air doesn't drop off till at least a couple of orders of magnitude lower than 35Km pressure.
[21:04] <fuzzylugnuts> crap. I can't find them on ebay anymore.
[21:04] <fuzzylugnuts> they were monocrystalline and very very thin.
[21:05] <SpeedEvil> 0.3mm or so is typical.
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> I've got some, but they arrived largely broken :/
[21:07] <fuzzylugnuts> this guy ships them in wax, its pretty cool
[21:08] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, I'd say these are about 0.3mm
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> how much were they?
[21:09] <fuzzylugnuts> $150 for ~75W worth
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> Not bad at all.
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> Damn good even.
[21:10] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah, I just checked the seller and he doesn't have any up at the moment
[21:11] <edmoore> £1/W
[21:11] <edmoore> nice
[21:11] <edmoore> in theory we'd only need to spend 50p to power the payload :)
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> With a tracker :)
[21:12] <edmoore> that'd make a nice wee unit
[21:12] <SpeedEvil> (solar tracker that is)
[21:12] <edmoore> solar powered tracker
[21:12] <fuzzylugnuts> I'd like a few watts for heat, though it will still get really cold at night
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> ice is about the best storage mechanism I think.
[21:14] <fuzzylugnuts> and man... I was looking up the winds for the jet stream.... freekin 200mph... The payload is going to have to be reallly light and the balloon reallly well built
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> Oops.
[21:15] <fuzzylugnuts> this is all very exciting
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> I was thinking of boiling water
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> that's 1000Wh/Kg or so
[21:15] <fuzzylugnuts> don't worry :)
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> freezing water is only 100
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> so not even as good as batteries.
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> Well - you care about the shear only.
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> not the absolute speed.
[21:16] <edmoore> indeed - launch is probably the most traumatic thing
[21:16] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm worried about the times it goes into and comes out of the get stream. Also about the turbulence inside the stream itself
[21:16] <fuzzylugnuts> Oh yeah, I'm going to launch at night too, so I get more time in before the gas gets vented from heat.
[21:18] <fuzzylugnuts> that should give me another 8 or so hours before the temperature has too much affect on the flight.
[21:19] <fuzzylugnuts> If any of you folks have a nice aerial, I'd appreciate the help for tracking the HF : )
[21:24] <edmoore> i'm sure loads of people would help out with tracking something like this
[21:25] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah
[21:25] <fuzzylugnuts> whenever I end up doing all htis : P
[21:25] <fuzzylugnuts> I high doubt it will be this season
[21:25] <fuzzylugnuts> maybe next.
[21:29] <edmoore> I want a snowmobile
[21:30] <fuzzylugnuts> wait, you get snow in england?
[21:31] <fuzzylugnuts> ;)
[21:32] <edmoore> no
[21:32] <edmoore> apparently they will run on asphalt too
[21:32] <edmoore> you just wear through the skiis every mile
[21:33] <fuzzylugnuts> lol
[21:33] <fuzzylugnuts> use it to till the garden
[21:33] <edmoore> genius idea
[21:33] <edmoore> I did just buy a suitcase too
[21:33] <edmoore> as my old one broke
[21:33] <fuzzylugnuts> nice?
[21:33] <edmoore> got a really nice 1930s leather one off ebay for £10
[21:34] <edmoore> beats the anonymous black canvas thing that went before it
[21:34] <fuzzylugnuts> hah, nice.
[21:35] <fuzzylugnuts> I should get one... so I can stop loosing my pen.
[21:36] <fuzzylugnuts> http://quaalude.zoints.com/image/78542-z1
[21:37] <edmoore> ooooh nice pen
[21:37] <fuzzylugnuts> thanks.
[21:37] <edmoore> what's the back story?
[21:37] <fuzzylugnuts> there isn't really one. Its the only pen that I've found I can use the ink right up on.
[21:38] <fuzzylugnuts> and the tube can double as a zip gun. its like, 3mm thick.
[21:40] <wickerwaka> i've never run out of ink
[21:41] <edmoore> i am going to get a pen this week
[21:41] <edmoore> dropped my 12 year old parker frontier at work
[21:41] <edmoore> trashed the nib
[21:43] <fuzzylugnuts> oh noooo
[21:44] <fuzzylugnuts> I wonder of you can even but the F-701 over there
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[21:45] <edmoore> £4.24
[21:45] <edmoore> zebra f-701 balpoint
[21:45] <fuzzylugnuts> thats the one
[21:46] <edmoore> so you rate it?
[21:46] <fuzzylugnuts> 8 out of 10
[21:47] <fuzzylugnuts> where a 10 out of 10 would be... you draw a cow and the cow comes to life
[21:48] <fuzzylugnuts> 9 gives you a dizzying high when you write with it. 8 makes the loins warm.
[21:51] <edmoore> convincing enough
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[21:58] Action: SpeedEvil puts off doing the roof to thursday just in case.
[21:58] <edmoore> just had loads of cheese
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> If CERN destroys the earth, then I don't have to.
[21:59] <edmoore> seeding funky dreams
[21:59] <fuzzylugnuts> edmoore: what kind?
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: Of ships and shoes and sealing wax, cabbages and kings.
[21:59] <edmoore> fuzzylugnuts: montgomery cheddar
[21:59] <fuzzylugnuts> edmoore: wise choice
[22:00] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: haven't heard that since a crazy woman once recited it at school when i was five
[22:01] <edmoore> fuzzylugnuts: indeed, the act of eating it was rather nice
[22:01] <edmoore> with some biscuits and some red
[22:01] <fuzzylugnuts> brilliant : )
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> I like it with good ripe banannas.
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> And a nice cheddar.
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> Coffee works well too.
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> (not with cheese)
[22:02] <fuzzylugnuts> edmoore: I'm a big fan of brine feta, ever have it?
[22:03] <edmoore> aye, as a matter of fact I had it on saturday
[22:03] <edmoore> oh last night I had the best steak of my life ever
[22:03] <edmoore> just delicious
[22:03] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah?
[22:04] <edmoore> argentinian fillet hung for 5 weeks
[22:04] <gordonjcp> bugger, I left my radio turned on last night and now the battery is flat
[22:04] <edmoore> and bearnaise
[22:04] <gordonjcp> of course, I notice this just as Saudi-OSCAR 50 is about to pass directly overhead, giving about the best possible signal
[22:04] <fuzzylugnuts> damn, we have to go way they hell out of the way here for good food like that.
[22:05] Action: SpeedEvil has the image of a cow dangling from a massive ZP balloon at 35Km.
[22:06] <fuzzylugnuts> because I drew it that way with my rank 10 pen
[22:06] <edmoore> :)
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[22:06] <edmoore> fuzzylugnuts: have you ever heard of penny crayon?
[22:06] <fuzzylugnuts> erm, not really
[22:06] <robert1971> fuzzylugnuts: Evening
[22:06] <edmoore> fuzzylugnuts: yeah it was a place called Gaucho in Picadilly. Decorated with lots of cow hide
[22:07] <edmoore> but i will remember that steak forever
[22:07] <fuzzylugnuts> haha
[22:07] <fuzzylugnuts> awesome.
[22:07] <edmoore> fuzzylugnuts: have a look at penny crayon - she has a 10/10 crayon
[22:07] <fuzzylugnuts> robert1971: Hey man. How's the radio?
[22:07] <fuzzylugnuts> :O
[22:07] <edmoore> used to watch it when I was little
[22:07] <robert1971> The best
[22:07] <edmoore> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gxNnPln30U
[22:08] <robert1971> I'm really getting into this stuff. Got the avr transmitting morse code
[22:08] <fuzzylugnuts> Cool
[22:08] <fuzzylugnuts> fuzzylugnuts might just have to choke a bitch for that crayon.
[22:09] <edmoore> robert1971: it's cool isn't it. I think it's the fact that it's not trapped in a pc. you're messing with the real world.
[22:09] <edmoore> I find that pretty cool.
[22:10] <fuzzylugnuts> looks like a neat show
[22:10] <edmoore> kept me off the streets
[22:11] <robert1971> Quick question to radio hams out there. I'm sending this morse code out from a Whip attached to the inside window with bluetack and I drive about 1km away and the signal fades. Now I'm in a hilly place but it's a bit concering when I want to hear the bugger 80-100km away
[22:11] <robert1971> Yep it's neat letting the bits out to fly
[22:11] <fuzzylugnuts> what band?
[22:11] <robert1971> as in bytes
[22:11] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: generally not a problem
[22:11] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: do you have line of sight to the window drom 1km?
[22:11] <robert1971> USB 434.650
[22:12] <robert1971> Sort of more 90 degrees to the window. In the direction of the pane
[22:12] <edmoore> robert1971: panic not
[22:13] <edmoore> when our payload is on the ground, we can't hear it more than about that far away
[22:13] <edmoore> LoS is the key
[22:13] <robert1971> I'm doing a teathed launch next w/e to about 100 meters I'll get the local hams to checkout what they can hear
[22:14] <gordonjcp> robert1971: it needs to be up high before you'll hear it
[22:14] <gordonjcp> robert1971: if you know someone who lives in a block of high flats, they might be able to help ;-)
[22:15] <fuzzylugnuts> tethered launches are fun
[22:15] <robert1971> Yep. Not being able to decipher the signals. I'm send dot at 50ms at the moment and dashes at 3 times that 150ms. In the interest of being able to decipher this as it gets further away I may increase the dots and dashed to 100 or 200 ms
[22:16] <robert1971> I live on a hill according to GPS which is 179M above sea level.
[22:17] <edmoore> gps is a bit dodge at altitude
[22:17] <robert1971> With a bit of luck I might be able to get a line of site to the hill on the horizon which is about 6 miles away. A test for next w/e
[22:18] <robert1971> Do we accept that altitude for the balloon. Ie if GPS says 40,000 can I bag it as 40k ir do we argue the toss
[22:18] <SpeedEvil> A 10m mast is 'easy' - few bits of wood.
[22:18] <edmoore> oh we normally accept it
[22:18] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: GPS is usually accurate
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> Or it stops working.
[22:19] <edmoore> but if one flight gets alt record at 33470m
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> The errors tend to be very obvious - it stops positioning.
[22:19] <edmoore> and then next flight tries to claim alt record with 33480
[22:19] <edmoore> there's probably sufficient doubt to set it in stone
[22:20] <edmoore> fuzzylugnuts: thinking might splash out on one of these
[22:20] <edmoore> for loin warming
[22:20] <edmoore> http://www.cultpens.com/acatalog/Pentel_GraphGear_1000.html
[22:21] <fuzzylugnuts> oOooo.... very nice
[22:21] <edmoore> 0.3mm sounds awesome
[22:21] <robert1971> I live about 1/2 mile from this. I wonder if they would let me put my antenna on here. http://wikimapia.org/21938/Emley-Moor-Mast
[22:22] <fuzzylugnuts> robert1971: its easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission
[22:22] <edmoore> oh wow
[22:22] <robert1971> fuzzylugnuts: I'll remember that one. I like it
[22:22] <edmoore> i wonder if they'd consent to putting a pan/tilt tracker on there
[22:23] <robert1971> Now were talking. With internet control
[22:24] <edmoore> exactly
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> All you need is a RC copter, and some quick-set epoxy.
[22:25] <fuzzylugnuts> and a bucket of rape from the local authorities
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> Which is why you assemble it with gloves.
[22:27] <robert1971> Guy's even if the morse gets shagged I guess I can still use it as a location beacon to find the bugger. Would you agree with this
[22:28] <fuzzylugnuts> totally, at 70cm
[22:28] <fuzzylugnuts> get yourself a nice Yagi
[22:28] <fuzzylugnuts> or a double-ducky
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> yes
[22:28] <robert1971> My final bits are ariving tomorrow 1 lassen skII gps and 1 lassen timtrac (gps + GSM)
[22:29] <robert1971> Any 70cm yagi will do. I guess the more elements the better within reason. IE fits in car!!!
[22:30] <edmoore> robert1971: that is the sizing criteria for ours
[22:30] <edmoore> just about fits on top of my parcel shelf
[22:30] <robert1971> :-)
[22:30] <edmoore> need to make up a tripod mount for it actually
[22:30] <robert1971> Did you make a handle for it ir do you get hand held ones
[22:31] <robert1971> I have nice camera tripod I guess I can use that
[22:31] <fuzzylugnuts> that works awesomely
[22:31] <robert1971> Manfrotto. Heavy one perfect for boot of car!
[22:32] <edmoore> no we just hand hold it
[22:32] <edmoore> no nice handles
[22:32] <robert1971> This may sound dumb but I guess you point it in the rough direction of the balloon and search for the signal. Ie up and on last bearing!
[22:32] <jnd> hey all
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> point it till you can hear the balloon at max ssignal
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> plot directioon on map
[22:33] <robert1971> Makes sense
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> move, repeat
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> triangulate.
[22:33] <SpeedEvil> Or just follow the direction
[22:33] <edmoore> I have a carbon fibre velbon i got for £30 in a car boot
[22:33] <edmoore> it rocks
[22:33] <robert1971> It's fun doing your first lauch so many unknowns
[22:33] <edmoore> spent a decent amount on a manfrotto ball head though.
[22:33] <jnd> how is going the sstv development?
[22:34] <jnd> will it work on some flight soon?
[22:34] <robert1971> Thats what I got. Seemed the best bang per buck. Lots of freedom
[22:35] <robert1971> Those other camera heads were bloody expensive
[22:36] <edmoore> they seem to get pretty silly pretty quickly. Doug bought some really really nice heavy pro tripods for filming the balloon once
[22:38] <robert1971> I'm just an amature with an old Canon 30D bit dated these days
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[22:39] <robert1971> Not very exciting but can you see this http://www.ustream.tv/channel/project-icarus
[22:40] <edmoore> yes
[22:40] <edmoore> it's alive!
[22:41] <robert1971> I love it .
[22:41] <robert1971> Felt like things are comming together today
[22:41] <edmoore> you're basically there
[22:41] <edmoore> amazing
[22:41] <robert1971> That broadcast stuff is cool
[22:42] <robert1971> I only started this project 2 months ago. After looking at natrium42's site.
[22:42] <edmoore> just wait for the chase. that's good :)
[22:42] <robert1971> Seemed to have picked up an awfull lot on the way. Thanks in the main to most og you guys on here
[22:43] <robert1971> of
[22:43] <robert1971> Cheers all!!!
[22:45] <robert1971> Need to do a bit of soldering to move the stuff off the breadboard and onto a strip board. When I have some time on my hands I may get one knocked up at olimex (sp?)
[22:46] <edmoore> olimex are god
[22:46] <edmoore> pcb design can be joyful
[22:47] <edmoore> good*
[22:47] <robert1971> Yep you mentioned them before. I saw a place on the web called eveshams or shomething like that who did 24 hr turn around. But the olimex guys looked like the opensource of pcb manufacture
[22:48] <robert1971> + their avr programmer rocks
[22:48] <edmoore> they're pretty reliable, and accept eagle files natively
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[22:48] <edmoore> big plus, since messing around with gerbers isn't always easy
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[22:49] Nick change: jn1 -> jnd
[22:49] <robert1971> Especially for a beginer like myself that eagle stuff isn't exactly intuative
[22:49] <edmoore> no - there's a good tutorial on sparkfun though
[22:51] <robert1971> Yep I'm too busy getting all this stuff shoved in a box at the moment. Talking of which I'm going to Leeds uni next week to shove some insulation in a vacume chamber and see how much deformaty I get
[22:52] <edmoore> oh that sounds really worth while
[22:53] <robert1971> I'll post the resuts to the wiki. Looking at polystyrene polyethelyne and the kingspan stuff for lofts
[22:53] <robert1971> All at 50mm thivkness
[22:53] <robert1971> thickness *
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> bubble wrap - small and large
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> EPP you mean?
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[22:57] <robert1971> Yep I did mean the expanded stuff
[22:58] <SpeedEvil> I have a big block of that.
[22:58] <SpeedEvil> For the UAV chassis.
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[22:58] <robert1971> I'm not bubble wrapping anything I'm sending up.
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> random thought
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> Li-po heated to 50C would be interesting.
[23:00] <edmoore> playing with fire :)
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> But, I suspect they might get a bit irritated if it caught on fire at HV.
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> (high vacuum)
[23:00] <edmoore> it would look pretty spectacular
[23:00] <edmoore> if anyone was around to see it
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[23:04] <robert1971> BTY
[23:04] <robert1971> opps
[23:05] <edmoore> ?
[23:06] <robert1971> edmoore: BTW how did you get the 170hz frequency gap for rtty out of the radiometrix. I'm just operating it on cmos logic. I tried to vary the voltage from 3v to 1.5v but it didn't seem to work. I just get this one frequency at 25kHz or nothing
[23:07] <edmoore> on ssb?
[23:07] <gordonjcp> robert1971: uhm, the modules are synthesized
[23:07] <gordonjcp> they will only produce the programmed frequency
[23:07] <edmoore> not the ntx2
[23:07] <robert1971> I don't have that setting. I just have usb or lsb cw fm am pkt dig but no ssb
[23:08] <edmoore> lsb/usb = ssb
[23:08] <edmoore> single side band - there are two side bands: upper and lower
[23:08] <robert1971> Ok cool. It goes upsidedown between those two. LSB is around the wrong way for me.
[23:08] <edmoore> gordonjcp: there's a vco on the input of the ntx2
[23:08] <gordonjcp> ah, ok
[23:10] <robert1971> Is that the analog drive stuff and having a 1.2v bias on the TX pin
[23:11] <robert1971> some crap about 2nd harmonic distortion reduced by predistortion of the analogue waveform?
[23:11] <edmoore> beats me
[23:12] <robert1971> Other than that I don't appear to have a vco on mine :)
[23:12] <robert1971> NRX2-434.650-10
[23:13] <edmoore> that's a receiver...
[23:13] <robert1971> oops
[23:13] <robert1971> NTX2-434.650-10 that's the baby
[23:14] <robert1971> In my defence the data sheet has both on and I sleeply missed the RX :)
[23:14] <edmoore> :)
[23:14] <edmoore> well the vco is in the chain after a low pass filter in TxD
[23:14] <edmoore> so it should be there
[23:17] <robert1971> Bugger me so it is. You understand that diagram (respect). It looked more like a broken flow chart to me. Looking more closely now
[23:18] <robert1971> No wiser but I don concurr there is a VCx0 there which looks like it been hit by cupid
[23:19] <fuzzylugnuts> d'awww.
[23:19] <edmoore> so the LPF (low pass filter) gets rid of sharp edges (high frequency) components on the input. That in turn stops you instantly trying to go from once frequency to another, which actually causes a burst of noise across much higher frequencies (harmonics)
[23:19] <edmoore> and is bad practice - the narrow band receivers can't detect it anyway
[23:20] <SpeedEvil> And the transmitter wastes power on it.
[23:20] <edmoore> exactly
[23:20] <edmoore> so the idea behind using a DAC to do pulse shaping is to extend that idea even further
[23:20] <edmoore> to get the most efficient use of power on the transmitter for the data rate we want
[23:21] <robert1971> I'm getting my moneys worth out of the 2AA's powering the TX it been TXing for 8hrs now and seems to be going strong.
[23:21] <robert1971> I'm with you so far
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[23:21] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: hello
[23:21] <robert1971> Reduce the frequency jump
[23:21] Action: robert1971 nods to jcoxon
[23:21] <edmoore> robert1971: not so much the jump as the speed of the jump
[23:22] <jcoxon> hey all
[23:22] <edmoore> so we're basically floating around a fundamental concept of signal theory and comms in general - the fourier series and the fourier transform
[23:22] <edmoore> so may aswell introduce it
[23:23] <robert1971> I need a text book. I assume this is text book signal theory
[23:23] <robert1971> Opps so last century
[23:23] <robert1971> Let me find the web page
[23:24] <edmoore> :)
[23:24] <edmoore> it is the first kind of thing you learn. convolution and fourier theory
[23:24] <edmoore> the rest is just pretty derivative
[23:24] <edmoore> there is an interactive web applet which made it click for me
[23:24] <edmoore> let me find it...
[23:25] <robert1971> I'm clearly out of my depth with out some more study. THat site would be appreciated
[23:26] <edmoore> yeah you're banging at the gates of degree-course stuff
[23:26] <robert1971> jcoxon: I'm not sure if I mentioned it earlier but my morse is working like a baby. My rtty is going no where fast but mr edmoore is correcting that as we speak.
[23:27] <robert1971> speak = type :-p
[23:27] <jcoxon> robert1971, coolio, getting rtty working isn't easy but i think its the best for balloons
[23:27] <edmoore> i would find this applet if I couldn't remember what on earth my first year electronics lecturer was clled
[23:27] <jcoxon> at least as a basic comms
[23:27] <edmoore> called*
[23:28] <robert1971> I spent some time searching on radiometix rtty thismoring and eith edmoore or jcoxon are mentioned in the first five hits on google
[23:28] <robert1971> either*
[23:29] <robert1971> jcoxon: was that php any use to you. Are your freq. increments linear or do you need a table setting up for the jumps up and down?
[23:31] <robert1971> BTW I picked up a magmount antanna for the 70cm / 2m wave length so I'm going to give that a shot on the way to work
[23:32] <jcoxon> robert1971, yeah it was useful, i haven't yet done the hardware so shall actually sort it out later this week
[23:32] <robert1971> jcoxon: Let mke know if you need a lookup table and I'll implement it for you
[23:33] <jcoxon> will do
[23:33] <robert1971> Right I'm going to earn some husband points and get off to bed a bit earlier than midnight. edmoore: Once again thanks for all you input in the past and for the future. Night all
[23:34] <edmoore> g'luck :)
[23:34] <edmoore> will find that link
[23:34] <robert1971> Nice one
[23:34] <robert1971> ttfn
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[23:36] <jcoxon> night all
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[23:51] Action: fuzzylugnuts works up a spreadsheet for designing neutrally buoyant spherical balloons.
[00:00] --- Mon Sep 8 2008