highaltitude.log.20080905

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[00:04] <fnoble> fuzzylugnuts, hello
[00:05] <fuzzylugnuts> Hey
[00:05] <fuzzylugnuts> what do you think?
[00:05] <fnoble> sounds good, but im not familiar with bc-412
[00:05] <fuzzylugnuts> I'll get a link
[00:06] <fnoble> i saw somewhere that its good for fast neutrons?
[00:06] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.detectors.saint-gobain.com/Media/Documents/S0000000000000001004/SGC_BC400_404_408_412_416_Data_Sheet.pdf
[00:06] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah
[00:07] <fnoble> how would it compare to the bf3?
[00:07] <fuzzylugnuts> dunno
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[00:08] <fuzzylugnuts> probably not as good, especially if you moderate around the bf3 tube
[00:08] <fnoble> its tempting, the only thing i would say is that im away from sunday until the 24th
[00:08] <fnoble> yeah, have a big ball of parafin wax as a moderator
[00:08] <fuzzylugnuts> ah
[00:08] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[00:09] <fnoble> is the scint built into the pmt housing
[00:09] <fuzzylugnuts> nope
[00:09] <fnoble> ok cool
[00:09] <fnoble> well, i could send you the one i already have recieved
[00:09] <fnoble> and order the second one
[00:10] <fuzzylugnuts> if its still there
[00:10] <fnoble> yup, im sure it will hang around for a while
[00:10] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm on travel next week so this won't happen fast
[00:10] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[00:10] <fnoble> it not obviously listed, i only found it by searching for ortec
[00:11] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[00:11] <fnoble> it doesnt say in the listing its an MCA, im not sure the guy knew what it was or he may have been asking for a bit more dosh
[00:12] <fuzzylugnuts> hah, yeah
[00:12] <fnoble> btw, i think its 1024 channel
[00:12] <fnoble> i mean, 1024 bins for each of the 16 inputs
[00:12] <fuzzylugnuts> 1024 is pretty decent
[00:12] <fuzzylugnuts> especially for low count rate stuff
[00:13] <fuzzylugnuts> if you have to many channels it takes forever to get a peak.
[00:13] <fnoble> i dont reaally know, ive not done much spectroscopy (yet)
[00:13] <fuzzylugnuts> ah, ok
[00:13] <fnoble> so if i trade for the pmt, what else would i need to get me going? just a preamp and hv supply?
[00:13] <fuzzylugnuts> what are you doing, again?
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[00:14] <fnoble> hehe, well the only thing i really need to get setup is neutron detection
[00:14] <fuzzylugnuts> ah.
[00:14] <fnoble> but i would be interested in playing with some other things
[00:15] <fnoble> some alpha spec. would be fun
[00:15] <fuzzylugnuts> haha
[00:16] <fnoble> or xray spec
[00:16] <fnoble> is the scint sensitive to alpha or gamma/xrays?
[00:16] <fuzzylugnuts> just gamma
[00:17] <fnoble> ok
[00:17] <fuzzylugnuts> it'll detect neutrons too, but I never delt with that.
[00:17] <fnoble> ok
[00:19] <fnoble> well it sounds like a good swap to me
[00:19] <fuzzylugnuts> Ok
[00:19] <fuzzylugnuts> glad someone can use this
[00:20] <fnoble> but i would be happy to just buy it and ship it to you for cost if you dont want to let go of your pmt
[00:20] <fuzzylugnuts> as sexy as it is, I really won't ever use it
[00:22] <fnoble> well i dont know if i will either, but i can think of some things it could be useful for
[00:22] <fuzzylugnuts> ok : )
[00:22] <fnoble> always wanted to try some neutron activation if i ever get the fusor going again
[00:22] <fuzzylugnuts> get some silver
[00:22] <fnoble> yup
[00:22] <fuzzylugnuts> that has a pretty big cross section.
[00:24] <fnoble> ok, so how do you want to do this, i can either send you the one i have now, or send you the new one when i get back from holiday on the 24th
[00:24] <fuzzylugnuts> also, gadolinium has a massive crossection, and the activation product emits a bunch of gammas if I remember right
[00:24] <fuzzylugnuts> lets wait till the 24th
[00:24] <fnoble> ok, thats better for me
[00:25] <fnoble> am running around like a headless chicken atm, need to move out of my uni room before tomorrow
[00:25] <fuzzylugnuts> ahhh ok
[00:25] <fuzzylugnuts> good luck with that
[00:25] <fuzzylugnuts> I'll take it into work and put it on the mca there, to make sure its working good.
[00:25] <fnoble> ok cool
[00:26] <fnoble> well, ill just buy the second mca and we'll take it from there when i get back
[00:26] <fnoble> we can collaborate on making some kind of interface to it :)
[00:26] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[00:26] <fuzzylugnuts> hehe.
[00:26] <fuzzylugnuts> I can call ortec and get some manuals too.
[00:26] <fnoble> ooh, that would be handy
[00:27] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah
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[00:38] <fuzzylugnuts> I'll throw some of this teflon coax in there too. I think its 174, but its pretty thin
[00:38] <fuzzylugnuts> maybe its 178
[00:40] <fnoble> fuzzylugnuts, if you are sure
[00:40] <fnoble> but the shipping will be the killer
[00:41] <fnoble> probably more than the cost of the cable : (
[00:41] <fuzzylugnuts> oh, naw
[00:41] <fuzzylugnuts> I'll take a pic
[00:42] <fuzzylugnuts> I think I got it at a hamfest
[00:44] <fuzzylugnuts> dude, I have sooo much stuff. I want it all gone.
[00:45] <fnoble> i know how you feel
[00:45] <fnoble> the best you can hope to do is just keep the rate of new stuff lower than the rate of old stuff going
[00:46] <fuzzylugnuts> haha
[00:46] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[00:46] <fuzzylugnuts> http://68.34.212.42/scrap/coax.jpg
[00:46] <fuzzylugnuts> its marked TK714A22
[00:47] <fnoble> wow thats thin
[00:47] <fnoble> looks nice
[00:47] <fnoble> is it the stuff with the rubbery insulation?
[00:48] <fuzzylugnuts> I think its teflon, it doesn't melt easy at all
[00:53] <fnoble> i wonder whats an easy way to interface to the MCA
[00:53] <fnoble> maybe one of those cypress FX2 usb chips?
[00:54] <fnoble> shall i look inside it? :)
[00:55] <fuzzylugnuts> usb chip?
[00:55] <fuzzylugnuts> the linx one?
[00:56] <fnoble> the cypress one
[00:56] <fuzzylugnuts> hmm, don't know that one
[00:56] <fnoble> ive not used it really
[00:56] <fnoble> but its got a built in 8051
[00:56] <fnoble> and its fast
[00:57] <fuzzylugnuts> which is?
[01:02] <fnoble> i think its called an EZ-USB FX2
[01:02] <fnoble> ill ffind a link
[01:02] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[01:02] <fuzzylugnuts> http://linxtechnologies.com/Products/Interface-Modules/QS-Series-USB-Module/
[01:02] <fuzzylugnuts> thats what I use
[01:02] <fuzzylugnuts> super simple serial-to-usb converter.
[01:02] <fnoble> was thinking to interface to the dual port memory
[01:02] <fnoble> if we have to
[01:02] <fuzzylugnuts> ahhh, ok
[01:02] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, I dunno.
[01:02] <fuzzylugnuts> the manual is invaluble
[01:02] <fuzzylugnuts> btw, no response from the SNOX group
[01:02] <fnoble> whatwere you getting in touch with SNOX about?
[01:03] <fuzzylugnuts> they are super local to me (30min away) so I wanted to get involved
[01:03] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm all kinds of orphaned from my group in idaho ;_;
[01:03] <fnoble> ah sweet
[01:03] <fnoble> they do some cool stuff
[01:03] <fuzzylugnuts> yea?
[01:03] <fnoble> would be good work with them i bet
[01:04] <fuzzylugnuts> I see they have a lot of launches under their belt
[01:04] <fnoble> yeah, they are trying to do zero pressures ballons across they atlantic
[01:04] <fnoble> (im sure you know)
[01:04] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, thats what I hear
[01:04] <fuzzylugnuts> I'd like to mess with that too
[01:04] <fnoble> yup :)
[01:05] <fuzzylugnuts> I've got the mylar and bonding stuff figured, just not the gore design
[01:05] <fuzzylugnuts> you built a few didn't you?
[01:05] <fnoble> ooh, how were you going to bond mylar?
[01:05] <fnoble> well, im working on it at the moment
[01:05] <fnoble> thats one of the main things ive been working on over the summer
[01:05] <fuzzylugnuts> ah, who was that... it was just a little one
[01:05] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[01:06] <fnoble> we've made some small ones
[01:06] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[01:06] <fnoble> at the moment im building a machine to weld huge-ass ones
[01:06] <fuzzylugnuts> what material?
[01:06] <fnoble> polythene
[01:07] <fuzzylugnuts> ah, ok
[01:07] <fnoble> just because its so easy to heat weld
[01:07] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, deffinatly
[01:07] <fuzzylugnuts> for mine, I'm going to get a roll of http://www.bodyworkmall.com/p-69380.aspx
[01:07] <fuzzylugnuts> and tape it with kapton tape
[01:07] <fuzzylugnuts> since neither stretch and pull from eachother, it makes a really strong seal
[01:08] <fnoble> ok sounds cool
[01:08] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, we'll see how it works out.
[01:08] <fnoble> test the tape at low temperature though
[01:09] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, thats whats going to kill it
[01:09] <fnoble> the glue used on some tapes looses its stick
[01:09] <fuzzylugnuts> its got silicone adhesive, I can test down to -200C with the liquid nitrogen at work
[01:09] <fnoble> tried putting some normal cellotape in liquid nitrogen and it becomes completely non sticky
[01:09] <fuzzylugnuts> so we'll see what happens
[01:10] <fuzzylugnuts> ah
[01:10] <fnoble> yeah, would be a good test
[01:10] <fnoble> the cellotape also becomes a brittle as glass, but i think kapton is a whole load better with low temps
[01:10] <fuzzylugnuts> I hope
[01:10] <fnoble> i think they even use kapton tape in cryogenic systems
[01:11] <fuzzylugnuts> ÿI use about 60 liters a month to fill a portable HPGE detector, out of a 3,000 L dewar, so I have lots to play with
[01:11] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah? sweet.
[01:11] <fnoble> i heard something about it
[01:11] <fuzzylugnuts> oh man, there is so much katon on ebay
[01:11] <fuzzylugnuts> super cheap too
[01:11] <fnoble> oh really?
[01:11] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[01:11] <fnoble> thats good to know
[01:11] <fuzzylugnuts> search the seller "paperstreetplastics"
[01:12] <fnoble> luckily i found a load of kapton in the lab we have adopted
[01:12] <fuzzylugnuts> nice
[01:12] <fnoble> got 1 reel of tape too
[01:13] <fuzzylugnuts> cool
[01:13] <fuzzylugnuts> http://stores.ebay.com/Paper-Street-Plastics_W0QQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247
[01:13] <fnoble> its amazing, this lab is like never used
[01:13] <fuzzylugnuts> search his store for kapton
[01:13] <fnoble> so we just strolled in and took over basically
[01:13] <fuzzylugnuts> which lab?
[01:13] <fnoble> it belongs to the structures group at the engineering dept
[01:13] <fuzzylugnuts> ahh
[01:13] <fnoble> we got access to it to use the autoclave for composite work
[01:14] <fuzzylugnuts> hehe
[01:14] <fnoble> but now we basically live in there
[01:14] <fuzzylugnuts> does it ahve a couch/
[01:14] <fuzzylugnuts> ?
[01:14] <fnoble> nope
[01:14] <fnoble> : (
[01:14] <fuzzylugnuts> aww.
[01:14] <fnoble> nor internet access which is a pain
[01:14] <fuzzylugnuts> ack
[01:15] <fnoble> but it probably means i get more work done rather than spending all my time on irc
[01:15] <fuzzylugnuts> ÿÿoh man, every time I hear "autoclave" I think of a place here that did animal testing. They would eat the control animal, and if it was a pig, they'd stuff it in a biggass autoclave and cook it.
[01:15] <fuzzylugnuts> thats true.
[01:15] <fnoble> that sounds nasty
[01:16] <fuzzylugnuts> evidently it was the most tender pork
[01:16] <fnoble> hehe
[01:16] <fuzzylugnuts> how do you go about designing gores for the balloon?
[01:16] <fnoble> every time i use the clave here i do think about making some huge pizzas
[01:16] <fuzzylugnuts> haha
[01:16] <fnoble> fuzzylugnuts, there is a really good program somewhere
[01:17] <fnoble> mathematically there is a think called the natural shape which is the shape which puts the minimum stress in the film
[01:17] <fnoble> *thing
[01:17] <fuzzylugnuts> Ok
[01:17] <fnoble> but in practice we have found the design is not so critical
[01:18] <fnoble> we started making natural shape balloons but all the cutting is fiddly
[01:18] <fnoble> and doing curved welds
[01:18] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah... even taping would be kinda hard.
[01:18] <fnoble> so now we are just making long tubes and sealing off the ends
[01:18] <fuzzylugnuts> big tube balloons?
[01:18] <fnoble> yeah
[01:18] <ShellEvil> Totally tubular!
[01:18] <fuzzylugnuts> turbopuned.
[01:19] <ShellEvil> If you're using it at atmospheric pressure and filling it, it'll rip open the seams.
[01:19] <fnoble> ShellEvil, what do you mean?
[01:19] <ShellEvil> But at the teeny pressure - any geometry will work without tearing pretty much.
[01:20] <fnoble> ShellEvil, these are zero pressure
[01:20] <ShellEvil> If you fill a 100m^3 balloon and have a lift of 140Kg, then the balloon needs to be well designed - or it will rip.
[01:20] <ShellEvil> Even if zero pressure.
[01:20] <ShellEvil> (at ground level)
[01:20] <fuzzylugnuts> the load will be put on the tape.
[01:20] <ShellEvil> But if it's got 1m^3 of He in it, it can't rip as there is no force to rip it.
[01:20] <ShellEvil> yes.
[01:21] <fnoble> ShellEvil, its not quite that simple but yes
[01:21] <fuzzylugnuts> fnoble: do you have a link tot he ones you made?
[01:21] <fnoble> fuzzylugnuts, only one photo
[01:22] <fuzzylugnuts> that'll do
[01:22] <fnoble> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/PICT0018.JPG
[01:22] <fnoble> the left most one is natural shape
[01:22] <fuzzylugnuts> very pretty
[01:23] <fuzzylugnuts> I like that one alot.
[01:23] <fnoble> ShellEvil, whatever geometry you use, if you are doing high lift and thin film you put load bearing strips or cords along the seams
[01:24] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, pretty intuitive
[01:24] <fnoble> ShellEvil, using the proper shape i think reduces the hoop stress mainly but the math is complicated
[01:25] <fuzzylugnuts> fnoble: how did you go about calculating your shape?
[01:25] <fnoble> fuzzylugnuts, there is a program around for designing hot air balloons, i cant remember the name
[01:25] <fuzzylugnuts> ;_;
[01:26] <fnoble> fuzzylugnuts, looks for programs for hot air balloon design as its basically the same problem
[01:26] <fnoble> ill have a look to see if i can find the one i used
[01:26] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[01:28] <fnoble> the one i used spat out a list of widths agains length along the gore when laid flat
[01:28] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[01:28] <fnoble> i wrote some python which converted that to a dxf and we printed it out on this printer that takes a roll of paper
[01:29] <fnoble> so it was like a2 wide but 20m long
[01:29] <fnoble> and cut round that template
[01:29] <fuzzylugnuts> ahh
[01:29] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[01:30] <fuzzylugnuts> I found a french site
[01:30] <fnoble> ah yes, it was a french program i think
[01:30] <fnoble> or french author
[01:30] <fnoble> could be the one
[01:30] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[01:31] <fnoble> it was an old DOS command line program
[01:31] <fuzzylugnuts> eww
[01:32] <fuzzylugnuts> oh, interesting, a spreadsheet
[01:32] <fnoble> found it
[01:32] <fnoble> http://aerostation.free.fr/mfr/fr/mfr_4.shtml#info
[01:32] <fnoble> the one called panel.exe i think
[01:33] <fnoble> its based on hot air ballon building so it asks you for some irrelevent parameters
[01:33] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[01:33] <fnoble> but if you fudge it, it will give you good results
[01:33] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[01:34] <ShellEvil> http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1220574610511.jpg
[01:34] <ShellEvil> :)
[01:34] <ShellEvil> (worksafe)
[01:35] <fuzzylugnuts> win! wine runs "panel" : 3
[01:35] <fnoble> hehe, now have fun working out what all the parameters do
[01:36] <fuzzylugnuts> parachute?
[01:36] <fnoble> i remember there was one number it asked for that i never worked out what it did
[01:36] <fuzzylugnuts> is that the vent on the top?
[01:36] <fnoble> only if you get it wrong it causes a cryptic error
[01:37] <fnoble> yeah, the parachute ends up determining the width of the last gore width it gives you
[01:37] <fuzzylugnuts> oh, ok
[01:37] <fnoble> i.e. if you were to make the balloon it would end up with a hole in the top as the gores dont come to a pint
[01:38] <fnoble> *point
[01:38] <fnoble> and that hole is the parachute size
[01:38] <fuzzylugnuts> oh dear. wine just vomited all over my terminal.
[01:39] <fnoble> btw, there may be better software around
[01:39] <fnoble> this is just what i found after a quick search
[01:39] <fuzzylugnuts> I'll see how this goes
[01:40] <fuzzylugnuts> if you made that awesome natural shape on using this thing, I'm sold
[01:41] <fuzzylugnuts> brb, switching to laptop
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[01:45] <fuzzylugnuts> this couch is so god damn comfortable.
[01:51] <fuzzylugnuts> wow, it would help if I knew about hot air balloons.
[01:52] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm guessing all the panels are the same?
[01:53] <fnoble> the panels are the the legnth of the "fabric width"
[01:53] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, got that
[01:53] <fnoble> i think maybe the ones at the ends can be shorter
[01:54] <fuzzylugnuts> hmm
[01:54] <fnoble> but otherwise they are the same width
[01:56] <fuzzylugnuts> interesting results.
[02:00] <fuzzylugnuts> it doesn't like zero as input
[02:08] <fuzzylugnuts> what is that "Nb of panels 3 => Q = 3 with half panel" ?
[02:08] <fuzzylugnuts> what that the parameter you were talking about?
[02:17] <fnoble> that might be the mystery one
[02:18] <fuzzylugnuts> gotcha.
[02:22] <fuzzylugnuts> ah, I see, you have to piece all the little bits together
[02:23] <fnoble> if you look down the text file it generates i think there is a table
[02:23] <fnoble> which is a lot more helpful than the individual panel plans
[02:23] <fuzzylugnuts> hmm
[02:23] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[02:26] <fuzzylugnuts> hmm, i prefer seamless gores
[02:27] <fuzzylugnuts> er, nm
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[02:29] <fuzzylugnuts> oh wow, very cool table.
[02:30] <fuzzylugnuts> it seems like once you get the general idea, you can just guess at the shape
[02:48] <SpeedEvil> Yeah. Radius at a length along the balloons vertical circumference = n*width, ...
[02:54] <fuzzylugnuts> fnoble: how long did it take you to build that natural shape one?
[03:07] Action: ShellEvil looks on ebay for rolls.
[03:07] <ShellEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Jiffy-Bubble-Film-Roll-750mm-x75-Mtrs-SL20-small-bubble_W0QQitemZ290258148773QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item290258148773&_trkparms=72%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
[03:07] <ShellEvil> :)
[03:14] <fuzzylugnuts> alright, time to sleep. Laters
[03:14] Action: ShellEvil remembers the supplier he got his plastic greenhouse skin from.
[03:14] <ShellEvil> Night.
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[03:17] <ShellEvil> Hmm. 38 quid for 30m*3.6m*55um
[03:18] <ShellEvil> 30p/m^2
[03:19] <ShellEvil> 100m^2, 9Kg.
[03:21] <ShellEvil> 68m^3
[03:21] <ShellEvil> (if a sphere)
[03:22] <ShellEvil> .13Kg/m^3 - so it'd float at about 15Km alone.
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[06:35] <natrium42> hi yansa
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[08:27] <jcoxon> morning all
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[08:42] <natrium42> hi jcoxon
[08:43] <jcoxon> hey natrium42
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[08:57] <edmoore> Morning jcoxon!
[09:02] <gordonjcp> morning all
[09:18] <edmoore> jcoxon: is it a ublox 4 or 5 on the goliath?
[09:18] <edmoore> 4
[09:21] <jcoxon> 4
[09:29] <natrium42> it's 4:30 am :/
[09:29] <natrium42> g'nite
[09:39] <jcoxon> edmoore, is the ublox 5 much better?
[09:40] <edmoore> I'm not sure
[09:40] <jcoxon> would be interesting to see if they upgraded
[09:40] <edmoore> meant to have very good aquisition and tracking, and the paparazzi guys say, anecdotally, that the upgrade from 4 to 5 was like night and day
[09:40] <jcoxon> hmmmm
[09:43] <jcoxon> shall have to see if they upgrade
[09:43] <jcoxon> my sparkfun order has finally arrived - at home and now I'm in london :-(
[09:48] <edmoore> sounds about right!
[09:48] <edmoore> got an email from a sparkfun employee this morning
[09:48] <edmoore> who's into ballooning
[09:49] <edmoore> he's a aerospace major at louisiana, working on HASP
[09:49] <soneil> lucky bugger .. all I got was a bill for import duty
[09:50] <edmoore> jcoxon seems to always get away with it
[09:50] <edmoore> what shippin g method do you use?
[09:50] <soneil> I've had one via fedex and one usps. I've had a bill from fedex, nothing from usps (yet)
[09:52] <jcoxon> i hate usp
[09:52] <jcoxon> ups*
[09:52] <jcoxon> they have just charged me import tax for my goliath board even though it was valued at 0
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[10:17] <edmoore> wow
[10:17] <edmoore> freenode had a whoopsie
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[11:13] <robert1971> 9m3 helium arriving in 15mins :)
[11:13] <jcoxon> wow
[11:14] <jcoxon> robert1971, are you close to launch then? or just getting everything together?
[11:14] <robert1971> That should keep me going for a few months
[11:14] <jcoxon> no charge for keeping hte tank for a long period of time?
[11:15] <robert1971> Getting it all together and Charlie is 5 on Sunday so I promised a couple of party balloons in return for buying the helium.
[11:15] <jcoxon> haha
[11:15] <robert1971> 5.50 per month
[11:15] <robert1971> Not bad compared to other cost incurred
[11:16] <robert1971> I need to find out how to build a quick 10mW transmitter. I'm going to go for CW comms first before the rtty stuff. I think you did that first?
[11:17] <robert1971> http://www.bocballoongas.co.uk/balloonsuk/products/206050-Balloon%20Gas%20Price%20List%202007%20.pdf
[11:17] <jcoxon> robert1971, hmmmm, run your flight computer past me
[11:19] <robert1971> CW (morse); avr linked to gumstix for temp, lassen SKII gps linked to gumstix, transmitter linked to gumstix. SD card in gumstix records data
[11:19] <robert1971> Something like that
[11:19] <jcoxon> okay
[11:19] <jcoxon> so its mainly based around hte gumstix then
[11:20] <jcoxon> which daughterboard do you have for the gumstix?
[11:20] <robert1971> Loggin and tracking yes. Seperate independent GSM / GPS tracker on board too
[11:20] <robert1971> net stix and vx-console
[11:21] <jcoxon> whats teh independent GSM/GPS tracker?
[11:21] <edmoore> rtty is not all that scary to code. They both involve using timers to turn pins on and off according to some sequence. The actual coding effort required is braodly similar.
[11:21] <jcoxon> indeed
[11:22] <edmoore> and decoding software for rtty seems much more robust than morse
[11:22] <jcoxon> robert1971, basically:
[11:22] <jcoxon> just about to say that
[11:22] <edmoore> but of course morse is human intelligable, though that often sounds a lot easier than it turns out to be, in my experience
[11:22] <jcoxon> the CW decode software is crap
[11:22] <jcoxon> its probably easier by ear
[11:23] <robert1971> trimtrac with external gps antenna
[11:23] <jcoxon> my interest in what you have on your gumstix is that rocketboy has just finished some code for the gumstix that uses the audio bits (not sadly on the vx-console)
[11:23] <jcoxon> which can do rtty really easy with shaping
[11:24] <jcoxon> its just like how we were doing sstv, its a program that takes a text string and generates a wav file
[11:24] <robert1971> http://www.trimtrac.com/about/techspec.shtml
[11:24] <robert1971> There is audio in the net stix?
[11:24] <robert1971> on*
[11:25] <jcoxon> i think audio is only on the audiostix and the gpsstix
[11:26] <robert1971> I lie
[11:28] <robert1971> I like the backup of the trimtrac system + the robustness. Will strip cover to reduce weight and possibly reduce battery size as I'm sure I don't need it to run for more than 24 hours
[11:30] <jcoxon> there are a few options availaible
[11:30] <jcoxon> either:
[11:30] <jcoxon> 1) use the AVR for CW on one of the pins
[11:30] <edmoore> my prefered ^
[11:30] <jcoxon> 2) use the gumstix for CW by toggling a GPIO connected to the radio
[11:30] <jcoxon> 3) use the AVR for rtty - quite doable
[11:31] <edmoore> sorry, my prefered^ (3)
[11:31] <jcoxon> 4) use a gumstix + audio for rtty
[11:31] <robert1971> AVR and RTTY would be my ideal choice
[11:31] <jcoxon> 4 - hasn't actually been tested
[11:31] <robert1971> I'm trying to keep as much as possible on the avr to hopefully ditch the gumstix from being onboard
[11:32] <jcoxon> robert1971, i think thats probably a good plan
[11:32] <jcoxon> rtty is easy for the AVR
[11:32] <robert1971> I'll me the judge of that :)
[11:32] <robert1971> me = be
[11:33] <edmoore> well, it's just as easy as morse anyway
[11:33] <robert1971> It's the hardware that I'm in doubt about. Obviously a transmitter + antenna + avr to send signals.
[11:34] <edmoore> that's it
[11:34] <jcoxon> yup
[11:34] <edmoore> all doubt is removed
[11:34] <jcoxon> go for a radiometrix ntx2
[11:34] <edmoore> you have it sussed
[11:34] <robert1971> And then just twiggle the TX for 0 and 1's?
[11:35] <edmoore> actually there are some niceties - the ntx2 has a voltage controlled oscialltor on the input - the freqeuncy the receive decoders depennds on the voltage you put in the pin
[11:35] <edmoore> typically you have, for rtty, a 'spacing' binary '0' and binary '1' may be, say, 450Hz apart
[11:35] <edmoore> so you need to drive the input between two voltages that'll give you that spacing
[11:35] <edmoore> you can do this with potential dividers
[11:36] <jcoxon> of pwm?
[11:36] <jcoxon> or*
[11:36] <robert1971> Any ideal freqencies. I quite like the idea of unlicenced then I can use icarus as my call sign
[11:36] <jcoxon> oh, in teh air you'll have to use unlicenced freqs
[11:37] <jcoxon> 434.650 is our main freq
[11:37] <robert1971> Intersting that's the onle on farnell had in stock 8 of yeasterday
[11:37] <edmoore> the carrier is at 434.650
[11:38] <edmoore> but the 'audio' you decode from that carrier will be tones
[11:38] <edmoore> so you'll have a tone for '0' and a tone for '1'
[11:38] <robert1971> Yep and then pass it to the computer to decode?
[11:38] <edmoore> that's the warble you might have heard before if you picked it up over our webcams once
[11:38] <edmoore> dunno if it ever made it onto webcam
[11:38] <edmoore> robert1971: yep
[11:39] <edmoore> the decoding software does a fourier transform on the sound input - it makes a graph of frequency (in x axis) and signal strength (in y axis) and finds the two peaks
[11:39] <edmoore> those peaks are the two tones, the rest is just noise and other garbage
[11:39] <robert1971> I can send 0/1 by setting 1 pin low/high surely?
[11:39] <edmoore> yes that's correct to a first approximation
[11:40] <jcoxon> but you really want to control the difference between the high and low
[11:40] <edmoore> but 'low' and 'high' are actually two voltages which you will have to work out
[11:40] <edmoore> not just 0V and supply volts
[11:40] <robert1971> :)
[11:40] <edmoore> because, say supply is 5V, that would mean 0V and 5V, and that would give you quite a large frequency spacing in the radiometrix
[11:40] <robert1971> So should I use 2 pins one for 0 and one for 1 and put a resistor on one of them?
[11:41] <edmoore> to get our 450Hz spacing, we have something like '0' = 1.3V and '1' = 2.7 olts. or something like that
[11:41] <edmoore> I forget the numbers
[11:41] <edmoore> no, one pin should be fine
[11:41] <edmoore> but you can set up resistors to generate these two voltages
[11:41] <robert1971> Can you vary the voltage on a pin. Haven't done this yet :)
[11:42] <edmoore> you can with a DAC (digital to analogue) but you probably don't have one of them
[11:42] <robert1971> Yep DAC on atmega32
[11:42] <edmoore> so instead you can use potential deviders to generate the voltages that you want
[11:42] <edmoore> oh there is???
[11:42] <edmoore> oh then you're sorted
[11:42] <edmoore> forget all the resistor crap
[11:42] <robert1971> Whicked I like that
[11:42] <edmoore> by experimentation, find the two voltages that give you the spacing you want
[11:43] <edmoore> (download the receiver software - truetty for windows)
[11:43] <jcoxon> damn, i've left my crimping tool in suffolk
[11:44] <edmoore> that's an exclamation and a half
[11:44] <robert1971> Ok i'll give it a go and see what i can set up ona board for testing
[11:44] <edmoore> robert1971: if you get cocky you can try and do pulse shaping
[11:44] <edmoore> but i suspect it's not worth it
[11:44] <robert1971> @@ck that for the time being
[11:45] <edmoore> nicely put
[11:45] <edmoore> we don't bother on badger
[11:45] <robert1971> My brain cells have been damaged doing this stuff so far
[11:45] <edmoore> might be able to help y'out with some example C actually
[11:46] <robert1971> Well certainl used. Having, like I said a week ago, never held a soldering iron this is proving to be one steep learning curve
[11:46] <jcoxon> oooo anyone any good with cgi or php or something?
[11:46] <robert1971> php
[11:47] <jcoxon> oooo, well i was thinking of some form of script that allows my radio to be controlled
[11:47] <robert1971> Sould be quite easy from php
[11:47] <jcoxon> just need to be able to pass "UP" or DOWN" to a serial port
[11:47] <jcoxon> so some sort of browser interface
[11:48] <jcoxon> actually just something that could execute a shell script
[11:48] <robert1971> can you write to the /dev/ttyS1 port directly?
[11:48] <jcoxon> well an echo could do it
[11:48] <edmoore> most of our code is pretty tightly integrated into the kernel actually.
[11:49] <edmoore> but should be portable
[11:49] <robert1971> very simple php then
[11:49] <robert1971> A form with a submit. If you know nothing about php I can write it for you
[11:50] <jcoxon> i could work it out i guess - unless you've got nothing to do :-p
[11:50] <robert1971> Just a form that say up/down with a submit button?
[11:51] <jcoxon> yeah
[11:51] <jcoxon> that said - it sounds so easy i could probably do it
[11:51] <jcoxon> hehe
[11:51] <robert1971> Give me 15 mins I'll put it on my server in your login
[11:53] <jcoxon> hmmm, so we can go up and down, no some method of controlling truetty
[11:54] <jcoxon> now*
[11:54] <robert1971> can truetty be controlld from shell script?
[11:54] <jcoxon> sadly not
[11:56] <jcoxon> maybe someother software
[11:57] <jcoxon> MMTTY might be better
[11:57] <jcoxon> or just go straight to rtty on linux
[12:02] <edmoore> our rtty decode program can do what is asked of it
[12:02] <edmoore> have full control on input parameters
[12:02] <edmoore> auto spacing/peak detection
[12:03] <edmoore> to follow drift
[12:03] <edmoore> can make some function to follow drift up to a point then isue a re-tune command for the radio hardware
[12:03] <robert1971> nearly done
[12:05] <jcoxon> edmoore, how much has fnoble changed teh rtty original source
[12:05] <edmoore> not sure, but the auto peak following is certainly in there
[12:06] <edmoore> and i think everything else is defined in a text file
[12:06] <jcoxon> oh right
[12:06] <edmoore> you'll have to ask him when he comes on later
[12:06] <jcoxon> i'll fire up QEMU and get a copy of linux
[12:06] <edmoore> brb
[12:10] <robert1971> http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/jcoxon.php
[12:10] <robert1971> Us that waht you wanted
[12:10] <jcoxon> brilliant
[12:11] <robert1971> I assume you are going to run the web server locally
[12:11] <jcoxon> yeah
[12:12] <jcoxon> right i'll bbl
[12:12] <robert1971> login to www.robertharrison.org U=jcoxon Password
[12:12] <robert1971> file jcoxon.php
[12:14] <robert1971> I see you're there. Code is basic but works :)
[12:15] <robert1971> If you can get the current radio frequency back from the shell it would be easy to display it
[12:22] <jcoxon> back
[12:23] <jcoxon> hmmm there probably isn't anyway of getting it back to the shell
[12:23] <jcoxon> without hacking up the lcd screen
[12:24] <edmoore> webcam +neural net
[12:24] <edmoore> let's see robert1971 knock that one up in 2 mins :p
[12:24] <jcoxon> easy
[12:25] <robert1971> no chance. I'm off to lunch
[12:25] <robert1971> Can you not get the frequency out of the radio?
[12:25] <robert1971> Does it have a data port?
[12:25] <jcoxon> these are old school radios
[12:25] <robert1971> Actually what radio have you got and I'll have a look at the spec
[12:25] <jcoxon> FT-790R
[12:26] <jcoxon> Yaesu
[12:28] <gordonjcp> hm, can't remember what I was using last night
[12:28] <gordonjcp> rather elderly Yaesu 2M rig with a groovy VFO
[12:28] <jcoxon> oh how was the course?
[12:29] <gordonjcp> yeah, good
[12:29] <gordonjcp> got it all signed off
[12:31] <robert1971> Must dash to lunch appointment
[12:31] <robert1971> Chat later
[12:31] <robert1971> r
[12:31] <gordonjcp> didn't do the uhf/vhf qso but I'll do that this evening
[12:32] <jcoxon> is this the foundation licence?
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[12:35] <gordonjcp> jnd: yeah
[12:36] <gordonjcp> oops
[12:36] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: yeah
[12:36] <gordonjcp> planning on doing intermediate as soon as possible, and advanced
[12:36] <jcoxon> my course is 2 sundays and then the exam
[12:37] <gordonjcp> quite like the look of the Yaesu
[12:37] <gordonjcp> I could do with something with a BFO for 70cm, a lot of the cubesats are CW-only
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[12:38] <jcoxon> the 790R is very reliable - at least for what we do
[12:42] <gordonjcp> yeah
[12:45] <gordonjcp> http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hammulti/ft221r.jpg <- that's what I did the VHF bit on last night
[12:45] <gordonjcp> beautifully made
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[13:45] <fuzzylugnuts> hmmm. I guess for cw applications, an oscillator with a square wave would be good enough as long as there was a band pass filter for the output.
[13:52] <robert1971> jcoxon: is that php ok for you. Just put the exec or shell_exec call by the UP and Dowm out put bit
[13:53] <robert1971> jcoxon: Had a thought over lunch if you know the starting freqency and that the script works every time you could just track the frequency in the code.
[13:53] <robert1971> out put = output :)
[13:55] <robert1971> 433756.50 ++ 433756.60 or -- 433756.40 It may need a lookup table if the jumps are not incremental!
[13:57] <jcoxon> robert1971, yeah that crossed my mind
[13:59] <robert1971> You can pass the frequency ussing a hidden form field if you want me to do this let me know.
[14:01] <edmoore> oh random announcement. Badger 2 will all be open source so will start dumping stuff onto the wiki when it's done. First hardware and schematics, then software
[14:02] <edmoore> must first double check how to make the svn read-only to normal people
[14:02] <edmoore> christ that sounded condescending
[14:02] <edmoore> I mean, people who aren't me or fergus
[14:02] <fuzzylugnuts> "average users"
[14:03] <robert1971> mere mortals
[14:03] <edmoore> that's the one
[14:03] <edmoore> don't want to launch and find someone has switched the telemetry feed to spit out one-liners
[14:03] <edmoore> instead of telelmetry
[14:04] <edmoore> or something
[14:04] <edmoore> maybe we could fire up trac
[14:04] <edmoore> anywho
[14:05] <edmoore> might be useful. Can see if rocketboy can port unix over to it
[14:08] <jcoxon> :-)
[14:08] <jcoxon> i'd love to have badger crack witty comments
[14:09] <jcoxon> we could port fortune
[14:12] <edmoore> maybe...
[14:12] <edmoore> to ssh into badger would be useful
[14:12] <edmoore> one day
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[14:35] <fuzzylugnuts> laters
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[14:41] <robert1971> jcoxon: Not perfect but something like this http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/jcoxon.php#
[14:41] <robert1971> jcoxon: Not perfect but something like this http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/jcoxon.php
[14:42] <robert1971> You get the idea !!!
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[14:47] <robert1971> edmore: Can I get away without an antenna for radiometrix if I'm in the same room?
[14:47] <robert1971> or no antennae no signal?
[14:47] <gordonjcp> robert1971: you should do, although hanging a short 1/4 wave off shouldn't be a big deal
[14:47] <edmoore> yeah
[14:48] <edmoore> we can pick it up fine with no antenna on the receiver
[14:48] <gordonjcp> it's like 15cm of wire
[14:48] <edmoore> when in the same room
[14:48] <edmoore> never tried without a tx antenna
[14:48] <robert1971> Just not sure how to connect it!
[14:49] <edmoore> just solder onto the o/p pin
[14:49] <gordonjcp> yup
[14:52] <robert1971> RF Out and RF GND?
[14:54] <gordonjcp> just rf out
[14:55] <gordonjcp> bit of wire about 6" long, hanging off rf out
[14:55] <gordonjcp> won't be great, will work
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[14:58] <robert1971> Just looked it up in the manual. Thanks I need the stupid level of instruction. Bit of wire 164mm from pin to end on RFOut only. Cool
[14:59] <robert1971> jcoxon: did you get his http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/jcoxon.php
[14:59] <robert1971> this*
[15:00] <jcoxon> robert1971, yeah
[15:00] <jcoxon> just playing with QEMU right now
[15:00] <jcoxon> will have a look later
[15:01] <robert1971> Sure just tracks the frequency for you.
[15:03] <jcoxon> oh
[15:03] <jcoxon> didn't realise you'd updated it!
[15:06] <robert1971> Needs a bit of polish as perhaps a lookup table for the freqency jumps but somehting like that
[15:06] <robert1971> as and
[15:09] <jcoxon> the next step is for me to get rtty working in linux
[15:09] <edmoore> and that's a wrap
[15:09] <edmoore> my summer work is finished
[15:09] <edmoore> 10 weeks of ExoMars on the brain
[15:10] <edmoore> now I have a month of CUSF!
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[15:10] <jcoxon> edmoore, thought you were going to france!
[15:10] <edmoore> i am for a long week in a week
[15:10] <edmoore> but have internet there
[15:10] <jcoxon> oh right
[15:10] <edmoore> jcoxon: that thing I mentioned a bit back is coming along pretty well
[15:11] <edmoore> think it should be going ahead
[15:11] <edmoore> we're certainly designing stuff for it
[15:16] <robert1971> edmoore: gordonjcp: Last request sould i be able to decode rtty by connecting my radio headphone to the mic on the pc and run truetty
[15:16] <gordonjcp> robert1971: should do, yes
[15:17] <gordonjcp> if you're sending afsk then it ought to
[15:17] <jcoxon> robert1971, thats how i do it
[15:17] <robert1971> Ahh it says that on the homepage for truetty sorry about that!
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[15:26] <robert1971> Is there a good definition of the RTTY protocol anywhere. There seems to be a number of variants out there
[15:27] <jnd> gordonjcp: yeah :p
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[15:31] <edmoore> this does feel odd
[15:31] <edmoore> I am on the dole
[15:35] <robert1971> May have a go at the psk31, might be a case walk before runnning
[15:35] <jcoxon> hehe, and you were thinking CW earlier this morning :-p
[15:35] <edmoore> psk31 would be cool
[15:36] <edmoore> but for some reason where my limit understanding of radio starts fuzzing out, it might not work so well with the radiometrix
[15:36] <edmoore> in that you'd really need to phase shift the carrier
[15:36] <edmoore> not some kind of 'audio' signal through a vco onto a carrier
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[15:45] <jcoxon> bbiab
[16:11] <robert1971> rtty it is. I'm not crazy enought to go down the psk31 route yet. Anyone know of a good spec on rtty to implement I think it's the baudaut code
[16:17] <jcoxon> robert1971, badger uses ascii 7
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[16:26] <root_> Hmm.
[16:26] Nick change: root_ -> ShellEvil
[16:26] Action: ShellEvil sighs.
[16:26] <ShellEvil> http://www.thepackagingstore.co.uk/products.asp?subcatid=317&gclid=COzGkef6xJUCFQuJ1QodqDm2iw
[16:27] <ShellEvil> 10p/m^2 polythene
[16:30] <ShellEvil> Or on the above numbers, floating at 25km.
[16:36] <jcoxon> :-)
[16:36] <jcoxon> ShellEvil, are you building a ZP?
[16:38] <ShellEvil> No.
[16:38] <ShellEvil> I'm just looking at prices.
[16:41] <edmoore> 'proper' (quote unquote) ZPs use low density linear polythene
[16:42] <ShellEvil> yes - that's 30um - which is perhaps a bit thicker than might be ideal.
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[16:49] <ShellEvil> Ok - we care about mass per unit volume - which for a given thickness of balloon if you double the volume, you decrease the pressure at which it will float by 1/2 - or raise it 5Km.
[16:49] <ShellEvil> So 5 rolls (100 quid) might get you 35Km.
[16:50] <edmoore_> a 2kg latex will probably get a reasonably payload to 35km too
[16:51] <edmoore_> reasonable*
[16:52] <ShellEvil> yes.
[16:53] <ShellEvil> zp requires _very_ thin films to be comparable to latex.
[16:53] <ShellEvil> the latex is damn thin - 2um? at 35km
[16:53] <ShellEvil> what's the starting weight of a 2kg latex balloon.
[16:53] <ShellEvil> Oh.
[16:53] <ShellEvil> I mean - what's the burst diameter?
[16:54] <jcoxon> kaymont is the place to look
[16:54] <jcoxon> hmmm zeusbot is being slow
[16:54] <jcoxon> or probably is broken
[16:57] <ShellEvil> 100 quid isn't horribly more than a large latex though.
[16:57] <jcoxon> about 2x the price
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[17:14] <edmoore_> it's amazing how the emotional state of a 5 year old and 7 year old siblings can be so totally and ridgidly tied to their relative progress through a game of snakes and ladders
[17:14] <ShellEvil> Go Go Randomness!
[17:17] <jcoxon> yeah that was pretty random
[17:20] <edmoore_> just watching the kids where I'm staying
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[17:21] <jcoxon> haha
[17:21] <jcoxon> oooo track satelites on google earth
[17:21] <jcoxon> on slashdot
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[17:28] <fuzzylugnuts> Hey
[17:29] <jcoxon> afternoon fuzzylugnuts
[17:29] <fuzzylugnuts> my lithium thionyl chloride batteries came today, one 38Ah, the others 19 at 3.6v
[17:29] <fuzzylugnuts> Heya jcoxon
[17:30] <Ei5GTB> guys, im speaking with the irish aviation athority about the baloon
[17:30] <Ei5GTB> they want to know what size the baloon is..
[17:30] <Ei5GTB> what size should i tell them for a say...1200 gram baloon
[17:30] <jcoxon> Ei5GTB 1.2kg is a good size
[17:30] <ShellEvil> 'It comes in a 20cm box'
[17:30] <fuzzylugnuts> "embarrassingly large"
[17:31] <Ei5GTB> lol... but im presuming they want inflated size
[17:31] <jcoxon> http://www.kaymont.com/pages/sounding-balloons.cfm
[17:31] <ShellEvil> 2m-20mish
[17:31] <Ei5GTB> 20m????
[17:31] <ShellEvil> at altitude
[17:31] <ShellEvil> 30km or so
[17:31] <ShellEvil> the radius doubles every 15km ish
[17:31] <jcoxon> at launch about 1.5m
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[17:32] <Ei5GTB> 1.5m grand
[17:32] <jcoxon> actually more like 2m diameter
[17:32] <jcoxon> at burst 8.6m :-p
[17:32] <jcoxon> might want to skip that bit
[17:33] <ShellEvil> 'under 2m below 15000 feet, under 4m below 30000 feet.' would be more or less correct
[17:33] <jcoxon> ummm
[17:33] <jcoxon> yeah
[17:34] <jcoxon> oops feet to metre miscalculation there on my part
[17:34] <jcoxon> ignore the 'ummmm'
[17:34] <ShellEvil> but '2m' is probably sane.
[17:35] <Ei5GTB> jees,. the guy on the "unmanned veichle" department really doesnt have a clue what these things are..
[17:35] <Ei5GTB> hes asking what size, how high they can fly... etc..etcc
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[17:38] <Ei5GTB> but i was talking to comreg
[17:38] <Ei5GTB> and they baisically said that their reviewing it
[17:38] <Ei5GTB> and if the IAA give the go ahead
[17:38] <Ei5GTB> then they will give me permission for the radios
[17:39] <fuzzylugnuts> http://68.34.212.42/happy_batt.jpg
[17:39] <jcoxon> fuzzylugnuts, 38Ah!
[17:39] <jcoxon> how is that possible
[17:40] <fuzzylugnuts> you can only pull 200ma tops off it or it explodes
[17:40] <fuzzylugnuts> the chemsitry is lithium thionyl chloride
[17:41] <fuzzylugnuts> they slosh when you gently shake them
[17:41] <jcoxon> so slightly scary then
[17:41] <fuzzylugnuts> I'd trust these before li-po
[17:42] <jcoxon> less of a bang when they explode?
[17:42] <fuzzylugnuts> the little cr-123s are for handling the high current pulse to the transmitter, then are recharged by the big batt.
[17:42] <fuzzylugnuts> they flaming-spray burning napalm-like electrolyte , so its very exciting
[17:43] <ShellEvil> tenergy?
[17:43] <ShellEvil> tadiran?
[17:43] <fuzzylugnuts> tenergy
[17:43] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.all-battery.com/
[17:43] <fuzzylugnuts> my spoogetastic battery store.
[17:43] <ShellEvil> What's the weight on that 38Ah one?
[17:44] <fuzzylugnuts> 200g or so
[17:45] <ShellEvil> 3.6v?
[17:45] <fuzzylugnuts> I got it to play with. the D size batteries are for flights.
[17:45] <fuzzylugnuts> yep
[17:45] <fuzzylugnuts> its all in the picture
[17:45] <ShellEvil> 100wh then.
[17:45] <ShellEvil> 500wh/kg
[17:45] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=285
[17:46] <fuzzylugnuts> thats the primary batteries
[17:46] <ShellEvil> about 200 for li-ion.
[17:46] <ShellEvil> Maybe 300 for the best li-po.
[17:48] <fuzzylugnuts> they have a niche in pulsed applications
[17:49] <fuzzylugnuts> hmmm, any easy way to spot-weld tabs on a battery without blowing it up?
[17:49] <Ei5GTB> metal ark welder
[17:50] <Ei5GTB> ...
[17:50] <Ei5GTB> :P
[17:50] <fuzzylugnuts> there there.... there there.
[17:52] <ShellEvil> soldering.
[17:53] <fuzzylugnuts> I would never, EVER solder these
[17:53] <ShellEvil> However.
[17:53] <ShellEvil> I have to say I've soldered to >100 li-ion 18650s with no problems, and 100+ AAs
[17:53] <ShellEvil> The key is cleanliness.
[17:53] <ShellEvil> First wash your hands.
[17:54] <fuzzylugnuts> nevermind
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[17:54] <edmoore_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Space_Shuttle_vs_Soyuz_TM_-_to_scale_drawing.png
[17:55] <edmoore_> never realised they were so differently sized
[17:55] <ShellEvil> Now, take a new kitchen scouring pad, and then clean the cells end. Then holding cell vertically, with a flat bit also horizontal. build up a bead of solder on the flat tip, and immediately apply to the cell, and immediately remove.
[17:55] <ShellEvil> This should be complete in under a second, and you can touch the joint immediately.
[17:56] <ShellEvil> then you press a tinned wire to the cell, and repeat the process.
[17:56] <ShellEvil> However.
[17:56] <ShellEvil> I have some small nickel plated magnets that work well for this.
[17:56] <ShellEvil> do the above procedure on the face of the magnet
[17:56] <ShellEvil> then it simply clips to the cell.
[17:59] <ShellEvil> I meant to instrument a fake cell, and test the inner wall temperature when I did this - but meh.
[17:59] <ShellEvil> leaded solder of course.
[18:04] <ShellEvil> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5962
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[19:22] <robert1971> Evening all
[19:22] <fuzzylugnuts> Hi
[19:24] <jcoxon> hey robert1971
[19:25] <fuzzylugnuts> how do you like your 817?
[19:31] <robert1971> Love it... Can't use it... Need to go on course... Going saturday
[19:31] <fuzzylugnuts> go on course?
[19:37] <robert1971> Yep to learn how to use the bugger
[19:38] <fuzzylugnuts> oh,
[19:38] <fuzzylugnuts> limey ; )
[19:38] <natrium42> robert1971, soo.... when is launch? :)
[19:39] <jcoxon> what lovely weather
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[19:39] <fuzzylugnuts> wickerman!
[19:40] <robert1971> Teathered 7 days if I get enough time. 7 weeks to lift off and one small step .....
[19:40] <edmoore_> I am going to a prom toomoorrooooow
[19:40] <edmoore_> wooooo
[19:40] <edmoore_> and i have finished work for the summer
[19:40] <robert1971> with the good lady?
[19:40] <natrium42> edmoore_, cool, congrats
[19:40] <edmoore_> and just had a beer-battered cod and chips
[19:41] <edmoore_> so life is generally good
[19:41] <edmoore_> robert1971: indeed!
[19:41] <edmoore_> she's there for the debussey, me for the rach
[19:43] <jcoxon> wow, apparently the next ATV launch will be in 2010
[19:43] <edmoore_> yeah lame
[19:43] <jcoxon> thats quite a long time
[19:44] <edmoore_> will take em 2 years to gather up all the bits from the pacific I guess.
[19:44] <jcoxon> they are going to rebuild it ?!?
[19:44] <edmoore_> no I was being silly.
[19:45] <jcoxon> :-p
[19:45] <robert1971> Got the stuff from farnell go an sma connector and a whip. The radiometrix has quite long bits on the bottom is it ment to set proud of the pcb?
[19:45] <edmoore_> Their PA man has just moved over to exomars though, and not a moment too soon
[19:45] <edmoore_> heading to rome to kick some butt
[19:45] <edmoore_> we hope
[19:45] <edmoore_> you can chop them off
[19:46] <edmoore_> that's normal with most through hole devices
[19:46] <edmoore_> if you can solder the sma direct to the pins of the radiometrix, so much the better
[19:46] <robert1971> You can see I'm a neophite
[19:46] <jcoxon> robert1971, make sure not to mount the RF out to any veriboard
[19:46] <edmoore_> keep 90 degree turns to a minimum
[19:46] <edmoore_> they cause reflections in the signal and loose you power
[19:47] <fuzzylugnuts> 2 45s or a nice smooth turn is the way you want to go
[19:47] <robert1971> I have strip board are you saying keep that rfout and the rf gound away from the srips?
[19:48] <robert1971> strips*
[19:48] <edmoore_> yeah - if you can keep the exposed copper to a minimum with rf, that;'s a good thing
[19:48] <jcoxon> well just don't solder those pins to the strip board
[19:48] <edmoore_> it may casue inteferecne with other stuff, and it's power not going into your antenna
[19:48] <jcoxon> if poss directly solder the sma as ed said
[19:49] <jcoxon> thats what i'm now doing with my radiometrix
[19:49] <robert1971> Does the outside of the sma need to connect to rf ground or do i just connect the center pin to rf out. Soldering iron is getting warm
[19:49] <edmoore_> outside to ground
[19:49] <edmoore_> inside to middle
[19:49] <edmoore_> that way you greate a cage that traps all the radiation
[19:49] <robert1971> And preferably direct!
[19:49] <edmoore_> yep!
[19:49] <robert1971> You ask a lot sir.
[19:50] <edmoore_> on badger 2 the radiometrix is on one side of the pcb, and the sma is on the other side sitting directly ontop of where the pins come out
[19:51] <edmoore_> pcb's aren't necessarily good news for RF in general
[19:52] <robert1971> Is there a picture on flicker?
[19:53] <edmoore_> no
[19:53] <edmoore_> the radio isn't on badger 1, it's offboard
[19:54] <robert1971> Ok I'm going to set up up take a picture and get you're prof. advice before soldering if that's ok
[19:54] <robert1971> your *
[19:54] <robert1971> Will learn to spell one day!
[19:55] <edmoore_> the science is complicated but practically it boils down to keeping things short and direct
[19:55] <edmoore_> untill you get to the antenna
[19:55] <edmoore_> then it becomes witchcraft and you ask RocketBoyv1
[19:56] <jcoxon> hmmm should have given this virtual machine more ram
[20:00] <natrium42> wtf --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afR5J7eskno
[20:01] <edmoore_> yes off isn';t it.
[20:01] <edmoore_> odd*
[20:02] <natrium42> does it make you want to buy vista?
[20:02] <edmoore_> no
[20:02] <edmoore_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwciCrnT40I&feature=related
[20:02] <edmoore_> from 3 mins to the end
[20:02] <edmoore_> makes me want to buy piano lessons
[20:02] <robert1971> Do you need to worry as much about the other side of the radiometrix ie the data and voltage side?
[20:03] <fuzzylugnuts> mmm, cake.
[20:03] <natrium42> edmoore_, lol
[20:03] <natrium42> the cake is a lie
[20:03] <jcoxon> robert1971, they can go onto strip board fine
[20:03] <edmoore_> just watch it
[20:03] <natrium42> i did, but not all of it yet
[20:03] <edmoore_> the only metric for the forcefullness of that ending is the richter scale
[20:04] <robert1971> jcoxon: That was what I had thought but I thought it best to ask
[20:04] <fuzzylugnuts> natrium42: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz5cl131KTk
[20:04] <edmoore_> and that's a bit of a piano geek pun come to think of it - sviatoslav richer is perhaps the greatest pianist ever
[20:06] <natrium42> billg is quite cool in RL, though
[20:07] <jcoxon> bbl
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[20:32] <fuzzylugnuts> went "alt-f2" to do kcalc, and hit alt-f4
[20:34] <edmoore_> whoops
[20:38] <robert1971> lsss
[20:38] <natrium42> wrong window?
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[20:51] <fuzzylugnuts> mmmm, xantrex C40 charge controller.
[21:02] <fuzzylugnuts> so the SNOX balloons made it out about 3 days?
[21:05] <edmoore_> yep
[21:05] <fuzzylugnuts> cool.
[21:05] <edmoore_> .
[21:05] Nick change: edmoore_ -> edmoore
[21:05] <fuzzylugnuts> do they know if the transmitter failed or did the balloon die?
[21:06] <edmoore> they don't know. balloon death is probable though
[21:07] <edmoore> it was on the way down
[21:07] <fuzzylugnuts> ah, ok
[21:07] <edmoore> then they stopped hearing about it
[21:07] <edmoore> but it was night time and it would have just sat atop the sea
[21:07] <edmoore> and might have lifted up again the next day
[21:07] <edmoore> who knows
[21:07] <fuzzylugnuts> crazy
[21:08] <fuzzylugnuts> I thought ZP balloons were supposed to be cut down if they went too low
[21:08] <edmoore> the bag of sugar idea again
[21:08] <edmoore> i don't think much consultation of international law went into snox
[21:08] <fuzzylugnuts> ah
[21:08] <fuzzylugnuts> should it have?
[21:08] <edmoore> no idea
[21:08] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[21:08] <edmoore> we haven't looked at the regs either
[21:09] <edmoore> and we're building them
[21:09] <fuzzylugnuts> I see
[21:09] <edmoore> i'll make it item 279 on the list
[21:09] <fuzzylugnuts> I think its just for the > 12lbs ones, but I don't know for sure
[21:09] <edmoore> that would be nice
[21:09] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah
[21:10] <fuzzylugnuts> so the bag of sugar is supposed to dissolve if it touches down in the water?
[21:14] <fuzzylugnuts> I think I'd tie a bunch of little bags on a long rope below the payload, so only the first few would get disolved, then it would have more for the next day when it touches down
[21:15] <fuzzylugnuts> simpler that sea-water activated battery + balast cutdown device
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[21:17] <edmoore_> well if we were to hypothetically do it, i'd want a ballast system that kept it in the jet stream
[21:17] <edmoore_> rather than fannying around hopping off the sea
[21:17] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, thats a good point
[21:18] <fuzzylugnuts> I'd like to do both, for redundancy through diversification
[21:18] <edmoore_> was just about to say that :)
[21:18] <fuzzylugnuts> haha.. engineer?
[21:18] <edmoore_> and you could have your 80m dipole run down it
[21:18] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah
[21:19] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm going to try 20m, about 14.315mhz.
[21:20] <fuzzylugnuts> though making transmitters is all new to me. I kinda know the basics but not the nuances
[21:22] <edmoore_> wouldn't even know where to start. could generate a wave form, but the filtering and amplification is all new to me
[21:22] <edmoore_> i.e. the bit that isn't digital.
[21:23] <fuzzylugnuts> ahh,
[21:24] <fuzzylugnuts> I'll have lots of questions for you once I get into the microcontroler stuff
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[22:22] <fuzzylugnuts> these thionyl chloride batteries are awesome.
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[22:53] Action: fuzzylugnuts sets up a duty cycle load timer
[22:53] <fuzzylugnuts> Omron FTW.
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[23:33] <RocketBoyv1> night chaps
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[23:40] <fuzzylugnuts> bleh. I wish I had an mca : P
[23:41] <fuzzylugnuts> it would make calculating duty cycle a hell of alot easier.
[00:00] --- Sat Sep 6 2008