highaltitude.log.20080901

[00:01] <fnoble> back
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[00:55] <Laurenceb> hi all
[00:56] <ShellEvil> hi
[00:58] <Laurenceb> the solder wick technique for small smd sucks
[00:58] <Laurenceb> never again :P
[00:59] <Laurenceb> I removed a pad, and a cap by accident
[00:59] <ShellEvil> dolder wick?
[01:00] <Laurenceb> overapply solder then wick it off
[01:00] <ShellEvil> Silly.
[01:00] <Laurenceb> very bad idea apart from on resistors
[01:01] <ShellEvil> I'd strongly recommend getting a proper hot-air/soldering iron soldering station.
[01:01] <natrium42> Laurenceb, just use flux
[01:01] <ShellEvil> It's not even that expensive anymore.
[01:01] <natrium42> lots of it
[01:01] <Laurenceb> yeah, I have no money and have to make do with a crappy antex atm
[01:01] <ShellEvil> and flux helps most things.
[01:01] <Laurenceb> yeah thats what I did in the end
[01:02] <Laurenceb> just a v small blob on the end and one or two pins at a time
[01:02] <ShellEvil> I got http://cgi.ebay.com/Rework-System-Soldering-Desoldering-Station-w-LCD-852D_W0QQitemZ200235633626QQihZ010QQcategoryZ100184QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
[01:02] <ShellEvil> For about 70 quid inc shipping
[01:03] <natrium42> i have a similar one by aoyuo
[01:03] <natrium42> or whatever you spell their name
[01:03] <Laurenceb> ok
[01:03] <ShellEvil> Do not attempt to spell it yaoi, then google it.
[01:03] <ShellEvil> The googles, they do nothing!
[01:03] <natrium42> mine has desoldering gun too, though :P
[01:03] <Laurenceb> haha
[01:04] <Laurenceb> hmm I used evolution to store a ton of old emails, but they have dissapeared
[01:05] <ShellEvil> 'show read' ?
[01:05] <natrium42> yeah, evolution has been buggy for me too
[01:05] <Laurenceb> I thought I told it to store everything to my local inbox but its vanished
[01:05] <ShellEvil> find?
[01:05] <natrium42> i switched to thunderbird
[01:05] <natrium42> it's slower, but at least reliable
[01:05] <ShellEvil> grep -r foo .
[01:07] <Laurenceb> I went to inbox then right click then move
[01:07] <Laurenceb> and selected my inbox on my machine
[01:07] <ShellEvil> Sorry :( Not used it.
[01:08] <ShellEvil> I'd use find/grep to search for a unique string in my homedir
[01:08] <Laurenceb> it seemed to be copying loads of stuff, but now everything has gone from my server and nothing appeared on my machine
[01:19] <Laurenceb> any idea where the local inbox is?
[01:19] <ShellEvil> I'd expect it to be in your homedir.
[01:23] <Laurenceb> nope
[01:23] <Laurenceb> where will evolution be?
[01:23] <ShellEvil> :/
[01:23] <ShellEvil> /var/spool/* ?
[01:24] <Laurenceb> hmm
[01:24] <Laurenceb> theres the bin in /usr/bin
[01:28] <Laurenceb> oh well...thanks for the help anyway
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[02:46] <fuzzylugnuts> Heya
[02:48] <fuzzylugnuts> has anyone tried sealing mylar with double sided tape, or similar?
[02:48] <SpeedEvil> hey
[02:48] <SpeedEvil> yes
[02:49] <SpeedEvil> worked OK
[02:49] <fuzzylugnuts> just ok?
[02:49] <SpeedEvil> hot-melt-glue also worked OK
[02:49] <SpeedEvil> Umm.
[02:49] <SpeedEvil> Adequately for my purposes
[02:49] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[02:49] <SpeedEvil> I don't have hard performance numbers :)
[02:49] <fuzzylugnuts> haha, ok
[02:50] <fuzzylugnuts> I want to mess around with making a small mylar balloon.
[02:50] <fuzzylugnuts> probably from emergency blankets
[02:50] <SpeedEvil> I would - if I was trying to seal mylar - just use a hot-melt glue gun to squeeze out a thin line of glue along a seam, which is then passed through heated rollers to flatten out the joint.
[02:51] <fuzzylugnuts> hmm
[02:51] <SpeedEvil> Or take a filliment of glue extruded from a cool glue-gun, and lay that along the seam
[02:51] <fuzzylugnuts> that sounds like it would add alot of weight
[02:51] <fuzzylugnuts> ahh
[02:51] <fuzzylugnuts> hmm
[02:51] <SpeedEvil> .1-.2mm dia filliment I mean.
[02:51] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[02:51] <fuzzylugnuts> thats an idea.
[02:51] <SpeedEvil> and then flatten that out to 10mm or so wide through a roller
[02:52] <fuzzylugnuts> right
[02:52] <fuzzylugnuts> they sell seam heater roller thingies on late night tv
[02:52] <fuzzylugnuts> just for this purpose
[02:52] <SpeedEvil> Wow. I never knew balloon making was so popular a hobby :)
[02:52] <fuzzylugnuts> buy now!
[02:53] <SpeedEvil> Hmm. I should try that.
[02:54] <SpeedEvil> I've got the mylar, and placing it on a flat table, with some tape to tack it down, and rolling a hot metal roller over it should work OK.
[02:54] Action: SpeedEvil looks at the gas cooker-hose connection.
[02:55] <SpeedEvil> Or UV set epoxy.
[02:57] <fuzzylugnuts> eh, too complicated
[02:57] <fuzzylugnuts> the little string of glue sounds like a good idea
[02:57] <fuzzylugnuts> I can get some big bearings and arrange them to be heated easily
[02:57] <SpeedEvil> With a warm glue-gun and some practice, you can make really fine filliments by pulling off a thread.
[02:58] <SpeedEvil> you got any film?
[02:58] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, its not too hard. It happens every time a burn my finger and pull the melted glue off
[02:58] <fuzzylugnuts> just some emergency blankets
[02:58] <fuzzylugnuts> I see some good stuff on ebay
[02:58] <SpeedEvil> I've got assorted stuff, that I found dumped at teh side of the road.
[02:58] <fuzzylugnuts> haha, cool
[02:58] <SpeedEvil> Also online.
[02:58] <fuzzylugnuts> kinda
[02:58] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[02:59] <SpeedEvil> from 'magic mirror' to thinner stuff.
[03:00] <fuzzylugnuts> I'd like to get the un-mirrored stuff
[03:01] <fuzzylugnuts> unless the reflectiveness helps reduce heating > expansion > venting
[03:03] <fuzzylugnuts> http://cgi.ebay.com/REFLECTIVE-MYLAR-50-roll-hydroponic-FREE-SHIPPING_W0QQitemZ260279497149QQihZ016QQcategoryZ43555QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[03:03] <fuzzylugnuts> I wish they said how thick it was
[03:04] <fuzzylugnuts> I'd guess 1 mil
[03:06] <fuzzylugnuts> oh hey... you know that thin plastic bags that are at the grocery store, that you put fruit in?
[03:07] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[03:07] <SpeedEvil> HDPE generally I think
[03:07] Action: SpeedEvil ponders a cling-film balloon.
[03:07] <fuzzylugnuts> hahaha
[03:08] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, I was thinking about that
[03:08] <SpeedEvil> Not really practical :)
[03:08] <fuzzylugnuts> it would heat seal nice
[03:08] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[03:08] <fuzzylugnuts> but fun to think about
[03:11] <fuzzylugnuts> hmmm
[03:11] <fuzzylugnuts> seems like mylar is easier to get ahold of
[03:12] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.bodyworkmall.com/p-69380.aspx
[03:12] <fuzzylugnuts> groovy: 0.48mil
[03:14] <SpeedEvil> That's what - 12um?
[03:14] <fuzzylugnuts> yep
[03:15] <SpeedEvil> Say 20g/m^2
[03:16] <SpeedEvil> For a 15m dia balloon, that's 18Kg.
[03:16] <SpeedEvil> (ish)
[03:16] <SpeedEvil> call it 20.
[03:16] <fuzzylugnuts> I was thinking of making a balloon like... 2m in diameter...
[03:17] <SpeedEvil> Ok - that's say 5m^3
[03:17] <SpeedEvil> Using maybe 10m^2 of plastic
[03:18] <SpeedEvil> So 100g, compared to a lift of about 5Kg at sea-level
[03:18] <fuzzylugnuts> win
[03:18] <SpeedEvil> If you want a payload of 500g, then that's 600g/5Kg
[03:19] <SpeedEvil> which means you can drop the lift to about 1/10th and get neutral bouyancy
[03:19] <SpeedEvil> Or air pressure to 1/10th - or about ... 15-18Km
[03:20] <fuzzylugnuts> I'll work all that out later
[03:20] <SpeedEvil> He or H?
[03:20] <fuzzylugnuts> after I have at least one glass of gin and tonic in me
[03:20] <SpeedEvil> :)
[03:20] <fuzzylugnuts> I havn't decided yet
[03:20] <fuzzylugnuts> it'd be nice to use H2 because its so cheap, and you can ground the balloon easily
[03:20] <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
[03:21] <SpeedEvil> Or even natural gas.
[03:21] <fuzzylugnuts> I'd rather h2
[03:21] <SpeedEvil> True.
[03:21] <SpeedEvil> It's just natural gas has one obvious advantage.
[03:22] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah?
[03:22] <SpeedEvil> It's so readily available.
[03:22] <fuzzylugnuts> oh, yeah
[03:23] <fuzzylugnuts> ÿand I'm thinking. I was using h2 before because it was cheap, but now that I have a job I don
[03:23] <fuzzylugnuts> 't have to scrimp so much
[03:23] <SpeedEvil> I'm also trying to find details of its solubility in propane.
[03:23] <fuzzylugnuts> good luck
[03:23] <SpeedEvil> I'm wondering about a natural gas ballon with a propane bottle at the bottom (liquid)
[03:24] <SpeedEvil> The natural gas dissolves in the propane, and the balloon sinks.
[03:24] <fuzzylugnuts> if it'd work, I'm sure someone eould have tried it already
[03:24] <SpeedEvil> heat the propane slightly, and it bubbles out.
[03:24] <SpeedEvil> True.
[03:25] <fuzzylugnuts> next order of business
[03:25] <fuzzylugnuts> balloon patterns
[03:28] <fuzzylugnuts> oh, er
[03:28] <fuzzylugnuts> legalities
[03:28] <fuzzylugnuts> the Faa was saying something about a busting mechanism if the balloon goes into civil air space
[03:29] <SpeedEvil> You mean air corridors?
[03:30] <fuzzylugnuts> I think they meant below 35,000ft
[03:30] <fuzzylugnuts> but that might be for non-exempt balloons
[03:30] <fuzzylugnuts> *looks it up again*
[03:33] <fuzzylugnuts> Basically, if you're biggest payload box is under 6 lb and total payload weight is under 12 lb, and lateral density is under 3 oz/in^2, then you're exempt and aren't required to notify the FAA at all - it's like you're a party balloon that escaped its tether. See 14 CFR 101.1(a)(4).
[03:33] <fuzzylugnuts> yes.... my large, mylar, ZP party balloon
[03:34] <SpeedEvil> 30z/"...
[03:34] <fuzzylugnuts> you should see the party that balloon came from
[03:34] Action: SpeedEvil ponders
[03:34] Action: SpeedEvil wonders if he can hit that with his UAV.
[03:38] <fuzzylugnuts> porkchop sandwiches
[03:38] Action: SpeedEvil did a thai beef curry thing tonight.
[03:39] <SpeedEvil> Worked well.
[03:39] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah?
[03:39] <fuzzylugnuts> I had kielbasa and mustard
[03:40] <SpeedEvil> beef cubed, coconut milk, chilli, lime, lemon, coreander, lemongrass, garlic, onions, and other stuff. Mmmm.
[03:40] <fuzzylugnuts> cool
[03:46] <fuzzylugnuts> I hope SNOX gets back to me
[03:46] <ShellEvil> on?
[03:46] <fuzzylugnuts> I want to ask them what loops they had to jump through for ZP balloons
[03:47] <ShellEvil> ah
[03:49] <fuzzylugnuts> I hear they are quite elusive
[03:51] <fuzzylugnuts> they are also really really close to where Ilive
[03:52] <fuzzylugnuts> whoa. I just used kapton tape to tape some mylar together... its a good strong hold.
[03:52] <ShellEvil> And at -50C?
[03:53] <fuzzylugnuts> silicone adhesive
[03:53] Action: ShellEvil wishes domestic freezers went down that far
[03:53] <fuzzylugnuts> should be fine
[03:53] <fuzzylugnuts> I have access to liquid nitrogen at work
[03:53] <fuzzylugnuts> I can just freeze some and stress it
[03:53] Action: ShellEvil wants liquid oxygen
[03:53] <fuzzylugnuts> easy!
[03:53] <fuzzylugnuts> if you have liquid nitrogen
[03:54] <ShellEvil> True.
[03:54] <ShellEvil> Annoyingly, I really want a few kilos at a time though.
[03:54] <ShellEvil> Which makes the logistics lots harder.
[03:54] <ShellEvil> (for testing bipropellant rocket engines)
[03:55] <fuzzylugnuts> oh
[03:55] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[03:55] <fuzzylugnuts> you are more adventurous than me
[03:55] <ShellEvil> Rocket engines aren't very complex.
[03:55] <ShellEvil> Just plumbing.
[03:56] <ShellEvil> Though I do have ambitions.
[03:56] <fuzzylugnuts> I mean dealing with LOX
[03:56] <ShellEvil> My fundamental observation is that commercial space largely is DOING IT WRONG.
[03:56] <ShellEvil> The shuttle costs the better part of a billion dollars to launch.
[03:56] <ShellEvil> The fuel cost is well under a million.
[03:57] <ShellEvil> (for the H2/O2)
[03:57] <fuzzylugnuts> there isa little more too it than that, obviously
[03:57] <ShellEvil> My idea for a simple cheap launcher is you have a stage design that has 4:1 mass-payload ratio. And that payload can either be a recovery/flyback chute, or another stage.
[03:58] <fuzzylugnuts> thats easy to say
[03:58] <fuzzylugnuts> go and do it and I'll be impressed
[03:58] <ShellEvil> You ground-test each stage, then flight test it, then and only then fly it.
[03:58] <ShellEvil> Sure.
[03:59] <fuzzylugnuts> http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=17967
[03:59] <ShellEvil> Commercial space is largely welfare for the companies involved though. They don't really want to build 10 rockets for $x, when they can build one for $10x
[03:59] <fuzzylugnuts> : P
[03:59] <ShellEvil> NASA doesn't help either.
[03:59] <fuzzylugnuts> check out TFM001002
[04:00] <fuzzylugnuts> uncoated should be alot lighter
[04:00] <ShellEvil> Their last 'let's reduce launch cost' effort - venturestar - had 3 completely untried technologies on the winner.
[04:00] <ShellEvil> Fun.
[04:00] <ShellEvil> Al coating is _damn_ fine.
[04:00] <ShellEvil> 500nm or so
[04:00] <fuzzylugnuts> ah
[04:00] <ShellEvil> Though it may have a polymer overcoat - I'm unsure
[04:01] <ShellEvil> That's what...
[04:01] <ShellEvil> !goog $267/(60"*250')
[04:01] <ShellEvil> oops
[04:01] <fuzzylugnuts> :P
[04:01] <fuzzylugnuts> don't hurt yourself
[04:02] <ShellEvil> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=267+dollars+%2F(60+inches*250+feet)&btnG=Search&meta=
[04:02] <fuzzylugnuts> +10 for google's calculator
[04:02] <ShellEvil> $2ish/m^2
[04:03] <ShellEvil> That's quite a lot more expensive than a pressure balloon.
[04:05] <fuzzylugnuts> one of those high pressure, zero venting ones?
[04:05] <ShellEvil> no - I mean a latex one
[04:06] <fuzzylugnuts> ahh
[04:06] <fuzzylugnuts> I guess those could be vented
[04:06] <ShellEvil> the latex may well have UV stability issues though
[04:06] <ShellEvil> even if you do vent it
[04:07] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm still going to do the mylar
[04:07] <fuzzylugnuts> cost isn't a major barrier for me
[04:08] <ShellEvil> No - I'm just pointing it out
[04:08] <fuzzylugnuts> *nodnod*
[04:08] <ShellEvil> And wondering if there is a cheaper source of mylar
[04:08] <fuzzylugnuts> probably
[04:09] <fuzzylugnuts> wait
[04:09] <fuzzylugnuts> where did you get those prices?
[04:09] <ShellEvil> the above site
[04:09] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=149+dollars+%2F(60+inches*330+feet)&btnG=Search&meta=
[04:09] <ShellEvil> the one you mentioned
[04:09] <fuzzylugnuts> that's more like it
[04:10] <ShellEvil> where are you getting 60*330 - I diddn't see any rolls that long?
[04:10] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.bodyworkmall.com/p-69380.aspx
[04:11] <fuzzylugnuts> I think I'll get one.
[04:11] <fuzzylugnuts> after I contact SNOX
[04:11] <fuzzylugnuts> I don't want to bother if its a huge pain in the ass.
[04:13] <ShellEvil> That's 32gsm, or about 50um, or 2 mils I think
[04:13] <fuzzylugnuts> its 48 guage
[04:13] <fuzzylugnuts> 12um
[04:13] <ShellEvil> ah - missed that
[04:13] <fuzzylugnuts> np
[04:14] <ShellEvil> that must be shipping weight.
[04:14] <fuzzylugnuts> it says there, 11lbs for the roll
[04:14] <fuzzylugnuts> if I get this stuff and things don't work out or something, could you guys use it?
[04:15] Action: ShellEvil isn't really involved with the lot in cambridge.
[04:15] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[04:15] <ShellEvil> I'm in scotland
[04:15] <fuzzylugnuts> right
[04:15] <ShellEvil> I'm mainly interested in teh comms and cameras aspect - I'm not especially interested in launching balloons - I'm trying for the UAV route.
[04:16] <fuzzylugnuts> ah, cool
[04:16] <fuzzylugnuts> oh, did you have an uber light one or something/
[04:16] <ShellEvil> Paper UAVs are very light :/
[04:16] <ShellEvil> However.
[04:17] <ShellEvil> If I can get it flying, my aim is 1Kg launch weight.
[04:17] <fuzzylugnuts> wow, cool
[04:17] <fuzzylugnuts> good luck
[04:17] <ShellEvil> And ascend to 1-4Km in 5 mins or so, then autoland on the takeoff spot.
[04:18] <ShellEvil> with a 200MP pan in the middle
[04:18] <fuzzylugnuts> thats an ambitious accent rate for a 1kg plane, isn't it?
[04:18] <ShellEvil> It's not a plane.
[04:18] <fuzzylugnuts> UAV, whatever
[04:18] <ShellEvil> It's a helicopter optimised for extreme vertical climb.
[04:18] <fuzzylugnuts> ahh
[04:19] <fuzzylugnuts> well it'll be neat to see when you get it all working
[04:19] <ShellEvil> I started out with a winged design, and realised that in many ways it optimised with a wing size of 0.
[04:19] <ShellEvil> The key is modern batteries that can be repeatedly discharged in 5 min
[04:20] <fuzzylugnuts> the A123's might suit you
[04:20] <fuzzylugnuts> they can source 120A for about 5 min
[04:20] <fuzzylugnuts> weigh 70g each
[04:20] <ShellEvil> yes - that's what I'm planning.
[04:20] <ShellEvil> Though for testing Li-po works
[04:20] <fuzzylugnuts> ahh, heh
[04:51] <fuzzylugnuts> ok, goodnight
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[09:52] <jcoxon> morning all
[09:52] <fnoble> jcoxon, morning
[10:27] Laurenceb (n=laurence@host86-133-69-206.range86-133.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[10:27] <Laurenceb> hi everyone
[10:31] <edmoore> hello!
[10:44] <gordonjcp> hihi
[10:48] <edmoore> morning
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[10:54] <Laurenceb> gtg
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[11:43] <edmoore> natrium42: ping
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[13:02] <robert1971> Hi all
[13:03] <edmoore> hi robert1971
[13:03] <edmoore> all well?
[13:03] <robert1971> Just spoken to the CAA and they are going to give me a call back after 2pm with info on how to go forward. I'm going to plug for two possible launch locations depending on the wind vectors
[13:03] <edmoore> grand - well on strong days stuff may well make it to you
[13:03] <edmoore> nova 7 landed north of nottingham
[13:04] <edmoore> from cam
[13:04] <robert1971> Home ideal! Somewhere west otherwise
[13:04] <robert1971> I could have collected that easier
[13:05] <edmoore> I have had a disatsterous day. My 2 months of monte carlo sims have been proved null, because the input data they provided did not have any kind of a valid statistical distribution in a couple of key areas, which makes this kind of statistic analysis pretty useless
[13:05] <robert1971> I thought most stuff would go SW
[13:05] <edmoore> it normall does from 5pm anticlockwise to 10pm
[13:06] <robert1971> Arse sort of puts you off the whole idea of testing
[13:06] <edmoore> well we have no choice but to sim
[13:06] <edmoore> as we don't have a replica of mars to test on
[13:06] <edmoore> but the italians could provide data to the spec they're asked for, if they put their minds to it, I'm sure
[13:07] <robert1971> True, sounds like you're doing something interesting there
[13:07] <robert1971> Waiting for radio to arrive. CityLink !!!
[13:08] <robert1971> Can I pick up radio 4 on it?
[13:09] <edmoore> not on 434!
[13:09] <edmoore> it is quite interesting, it's my summer job
[13:09] <edmoore> entry descent and landing system for ExoMars
[13:14] <robert1971> Right up your street I would imagine. Better than stacking shelves
[13:30] <edmoore> ha, yeah it's better than that
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[13:47] <robert1971> 1:45 15 mins I'll call the CAA back and see what they have to say for themselves
[13:48] <robert1971> BTW how are you attaching the parachute. I ment to ask you that at the w/e
[13:49] <edmoore> well we have a ring
[13:49] <robert1971> I thought of putting it inline with the balloon cord. Keeping it tidy and out of the way on the way up and when the balloon pops the pull is removed and the chute opens
[13:49] <edmoore> which is the confluence point for both the lines from the payload and the lines to the parachute
[13:50] <edmoore> we have a seperate line from cutdown the the balloon, but that line goes up through the sirspill in the top of the parachute
[13:50] <edmoore> and is kept there by a single stitch of very girl thread
[13:50] <edmoore> such that it pulls off when cut away
[13:50] <edmoore> girly*
[13:51] <edmoore> air-splill*
[13:52] <edmoore> sorry, I cannot type at all today
[13:53] <robert1971> The very girl thread breaks very easily, hence girly
[13:54] <gordonjcp> over lunch I thought of using a fresnel antenna for 2.4GHz
[13:54] <gordonjcp> so you could have a sort of flat plate on the bottom of the payload
[13:54] <gordonjcp> you shouldn't do it
[13:54] <gordonjcp> I did a quick back-of-an-envelope calculation, and it would need to be about 6 metres across
[13:55] <edmoore> :)
[13:58] <robert1971> Humm... Going to think a bit more about parachute system and do a few tests. Got two from spherachute off wiki.
[14:01] <edmoore> spherachute?
[14:02] <robert1971> http://spherachutes.com/construction.asp
[14:02] <robert1971> Got two 36"
[14:02] <robert1971> inch
[14:02] <robert1971> How does that fit with yours
[14:03] <robert1971> Parachute size that is
[14:03] <gordonjcp> if you bled off gas, would it sink until it reached denser air?
[14:03] <edmoore> very posh
[14:04] <edmoore> that's about the size we use
[14:04] <robert1971> White | Neon Orange $20 each so quite cheap
[14:04] <edmoore> though not the design we'll be using much longer
[14:04] <robert1971> Paraglider?
[14:04] <robert1971> I've been promised a PG course for my 40'th. Only 4 years away
[14:05] <edmoore> ha, no not paraglider
[14:06] <robert1971> Is it secret?
[14:06] <edmoore> they're a pain in the arse
[14:06] <edmoore> no no, ring slot
[14:06] <robert1971> Is that a type of chute
[14:06] <edmoore> they're a lot more complex to build, but deploy more stabley and descent stabley
[14:06] <edmoore> yeah
[14:06] <edmoore> their opening force co-efficient is pretty low
[14:07] <ShellEvil> gordonjcp: 2.4GHz for what?
[14:07] <robert1971> Are the otherones high?
[14:07] <edmoore> i.e. thr factor you multiply the equilibrium force by to get the peak loads during deployment - not an issue for balloon chutes which gradually inflate, but will be an issue for dual-stage deployment
[14:08] <edmoore> robert1971: otherones are higher, but when you have them pre-deployed for a balloon, it doesn't matter
[14:08] <edmoore> as they jsut gradually inflate as they accelerate down
[14:08] <gordonjcp> ShellEvil: video, data, whatever really
[14:08] <ShellEvil> gordonjcp: 2.4 to an omni antenna IIRC with a 1.8m dish (ebay) will get you 4Km or so
[14:08] <robert1971> Cool, BTW what is CUSF's goal.
[14:08] <edmoore> there's no thwack like you get if you use a mortar and deploy it into an already fast fall
[14:08] <gordonjcp> ShellEvil: I have a 1.8m fibreglass dish. Come and take it away.
[14:08] <ShellEvil> gordonjcp: with stock powers
[14:08] <edmoore> robert1971: break 100km with a rocket
[14:08] <edmoore> from a balloon
[14:08] <edmoore> get into space, basically
[14:09] <edmoore> then after that, N-prize
[14:09] <robert1971> Cool. I'm going to stick to the balloon height for the time being
[14:09] <edmoore> http://science.slashdot.org/science/08/07/27/1952255.shtml
[14:09] <ShellEvil> edmoore: at least you found out now, ratehr than post smoking-hole :) Can you just get more computers on it?
[14:10] <ShellEvil> (for the redo)
[14:10] <edmoore> found out what?
[14:11] <ShellEvil> about the statistical weakness
[14:11] <edmoore> ah right
[14:11] <edmoore> yes
[14:11] <edmoore> well the landing site dispersal wasn't
[14:12] <edmoore> by which I mean, there was no statistically meaningful 2-sigma ellipse
[14:12] <edmoore> it was just rubbish in, rubbish out
[14:13] <ShellEvil> exomars is a lander+rover?
[14:15] <edmoore> yup
[14:16] Action: ShellEvil still boggles at the ongoing mars rovers.
[14:16] <edmoore> amazing
[14:16] <edmoore> i think, once funding goes to nothing, they should send them on some quixotic mission
[14:16] <edmoore> to pathfinder, or viking, or something
[14:17] <ShellEvil> I wonder how much new science they are doing now per day.
[14:17] <ShellEvil> vs what they used to do when they started.
[14:18] <gordonjcp> wonder how big an antenna would be required to pick up their signals
[14:18] <ShellEvil> gordonjcp: kilometers at least, prolly tens.
[14:18] <ShellEvil> gordonjcp: it's relayed through the lander
[14:19] <ShellEvil> gordonjcp: I think you need 30mish class dishes to pick up the lander though
[14:20] <gordonjcp> there doesn't seem to be a lot available about it
[14:20] <gordonjcp> even frequencies would be good
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[14:20] <edmoore> ShellEvil: virtually nothing. they're just letting them fade away
[14:20] <gordonjcp> The microwave data link from the lander to Earth is handled by the Deep Space Network (DSN).
[14:21] <gordonjcp> DSN consists of a collection of 34 and 70 meter radio telescopes equipped with cryogenically cooled low-noise amplifiers. They operate in two microwave frequency bands : S-band (2.3 GHz) and X-band (7.2 GHz uplink, 8.4 GHz downlink ).
[14:21] <gordonjcp> ok, that would have to wait until I move back up north
[14:21] <ShellEvil> gordonjcp: a digger, some concrete, job done.
[14:21] <edmoore> They picked up huygens with DSN after TAS-I messed up
[14:21] <gordonjcp> well yeah
[14:21] <edmoore> that had less tx power than the rovers
[14:21] <gordonjcp> up the top of the croft there's about 3" of soil and then you're down to rock
[14:22] <gordonjcp> locally nearly the highest point, but a bit visible from the road
[14:22] <ShellEvil> gordonjcp: Aha! an excuse to play with explosives!
[14:22] <gordonjcp> (there are actually mountings for an antenna mast drilled in an outcrop up there already)
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[14:53] <robert1971> BTW has anyone considered insurance for sending a balloon up?
[14:54] <robert1971> On the off chance it takes out a 747 etc...
[14:55] <robert1971> I'm expecting a bit of silence on this topic...
[14:56] <edmoore> no no, we used to have some
[14:58] <edmoore> but currently don't.
[14:59] <edmoore> but are looking to again
[15:00] <robert1971> Is it expensive and whats the cover like?
[15:00] <robert1971> Where did you get it?
[15:00] <robert1971> Sorry more questions than answers
[15:05] <edmoore> sorry, just talking to john
[15:05] <edmoore> bbiab
[15:05] <edmoore> will answer
[15:05] <edmoore> fyi ~£300/flight
[15:05] <edmoore> 3rd party
[15:06] <edmoore> same people who insure engineering dept
[15:09] <robert1971> Ouch
[15:09] <robert1971> Sort of puts you off getting it a bit
[15:09] <edmoore> indeed
[15:09] <edmoore> just make the bottom squishy
[15:09] <robert1971> :D it is
[15:10] <robert1971> 5cm of styrene
[15:10] <edmoore> what scares me is the possibility of landing on the M11
[15:10] <robert1971> A runway falls into the same category
[15:10] <edmoore> planes can deal with birdstrikes
[15:12] <edmoore> I mean, you don't often hear of ducks having heart atacks and crashing into things
[15:12] <edmoore> and there are 10^8 times as many duck flight hours as balloon flight hours
[15:13] <ShellEvil> Results 1 - 10 of about 235,000 for duck "heart attack" crashed. (0.28 seconds)
[15:13] <ShellEvil> :)
[15:14] <edmoore> the top of which is thomas the tank engine
[15:14] <robert1971> Thats true might just take out an engine
[15:14] <edmoore> for me
[15:15] <robert1971> Still don't fancy contacting leeds bradford airport to ask if i can retrieve my payload from their runway
[15:15] <ShellEvil> Yeah - I assume there are cases - but rare enough they cause newsworthy events.
[15:15] <ShellEvil> no
[15:16] <edmoore> we have all the cutdown logic for that reason
[15:16] <robert1971> jcoxon too?
[15:16] <edmoore> polygon maps of 'safe zones' and landing spot prediction
[15:16] <edmoore> he's had it in the past
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[15:16] <edmoore> and we definitely don't fly if the prediction puts in anywhere dodgy
[15:17] <robert1971> Why the steps backwards from cutdown. If I had they system in place I think I would keep it going forward
[15:18] <ShellEvil> It adds 'oopses'
[15:18] <ShellEvil> For example, a bogus GPS point causing you to cutdown in a silly place.
[15:18] <ShellEvil> Or your prediction code being broken, and ditto.
[15:18] <robert1971> If we do enough launches we'll eventually have a front page story! Hopefully not on my launch
[15:19] <edmoore> ShellEvil: it's more intelligent that beleiving every single point
[15:19] <edmoore> give us some credit
[15:19] <robert1971> I'll try to keep sods law at bay
[15:19] <ShellEvil> edmoore: well - of course.
[15:19] <ShellEvil> edmoore: it's still vulnerable to code errors.
[15:20] <robert1971> Come on city link where is my radio
[15:20] <edmoore> indeed, but that's why we test-test-test
[15:20] <gordonjcp> city stink
[15:20] <robert1971> Yep
[15:20] <gordonjcp> never *quite* as bad as damage distribution
[15:21] <gordonjcp> also known as ravage distribution
[15:21] <robert1971> any ideas on a power source for payload?
[15:21] <edmoore> but we are lucky with east anglia
[15:21] <robert1971> Lithium guess
[15:21] <edmoore> it's about the least populated place in england
[15:21] <ShellEvil> robert1971: a guinea pig on a treadmill.
[15:21] <robert1971> I have linconshire
[15:21] Action: gordonjcp has nw scotland
[15:21] <gordonjcp> lots of sea, though
[15:21] <robert1971> They have trouble breathing at altitude
[15:22] <ShellEvil> robert1971: for altitude, I favour Li-ion cells. About 18g per, and 6Wh or so power.
[15:22] <ShellEvil> for 18650 cells
[15:22] <gordonjcp> the bits that aren't made of sea are a bit vertical
[15:22] <robert1971> The rubberband also snaps due to the cold
[15:22] <robert1971> Yep I don't fancy bagging a few munrows to collect
[15:22] <ShellEvil> robert1971: some like lithium-polymer, I have concerns about them as they have no rigid case.
[15:23] <edmoore> wrap em up
[15:23] <fuzzylugnuts> with love.
[15:23] <edmoore> kapton tape will stop the bulging
[15:23] <edmoore> they use them in cube sats, so i wouldn't loose too much sleep
[15:23] <ShellEvil> And I worry slightly about the case swelling, and causing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OsBc8RqSKU
[15:24] <robert1971> Are they rechargable? The ones they use in RC aircraft i guess you're talking about
[15:24] <ShellEvil> yes.
[15:24] <ShellEvil> they are rechargable.
[15:24] <robert1971> Just stack a few in series and // to get 12v or can you just buy a big bugger
[15:25] <ShellEvil> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5790
[15:25] <robert1971> I'm thinking 12V and taking the volts back down 6v and 3v
[15:25] <ShellEvil> for example, for lithium-ion
[15:26] <fuzzylugnuts> so much battery talk. *heaven*
[15:26] <ShellEvil> Then there is lithium primary cells.
[15:26] <ShellEvil> Which some favour.
[15:26] <fuzzylugnuts> I like them for pulsed stuff
[15:29] <fuzzylugnuts> like for the HF beacon that I'm soon to be working on.
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[15:34] <edmoore> that's the bigger worry for me with balloon payloads
[15:34] <ShellEvil> losing them after loosing them?
[15:38] <edmoore> loosing them in a lipo fire
[15:38] <edmoore> as the flight computer carries on talking
[15:38] <edmoore> until the batteries die in their special lipo way
[15:39] <fuzzylugnuts> I like teh A123's but they are so heavy.
[15:39] <fuzzylugnuts> but they are hermetically sealed
[15:40] <fuzzylugnuts> and have safe chemistry
[15:40] <robert1971> Humm I can see a bit of thought need to go into this too
[15:41] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1014
[15:41] <robert1971> edmoore: are the cameras independently powered or do Ujust have one source
[15:42] <robert1971> I guess I'm going to have to work out the current draw on my system and see what I need.
[15:43] <fuzzylugnuts> good idea
[15:43] <edmoore> robert1971: currently yeah
[15:43] <edmoore> chdk makes them totallys hands-off
[15:43] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm going to try and install that today
[15:46] <robert1971> I'm going with that on my internal camera
[15:47] <robert1971> How do you get the life out of 2 aa's for the flight duration or can you shove in sime li-ion long life bats
[15:47] <robert1971> chdk
[15:48] <edmoore> i think we had lithiums
[15:48] <edmoore> but batt was 100% on landing
[15:48] <edmoore> bearely scratched
[15:48] <robert1971> I'm thinking two of these in series to give 14v supply and bring down to 12 / 6 with atwo regulators http://uk.farnell.com/8636320/electrical-circuit-protection/product.us0?sku=varta-56620502097
[15:49] <robert1971> Even after 2hurs of vid and pics
[15:49] <robert1971> Amazing
[15:49] <edmoore> i think the cameras was lying
[15:49] <edmoore> but still, a 4GB card fills up before you need worry about batts
[15:49] <robert1971> Me too the fact you had any juice left is quite cool
[15:49] <edmoore> LCD off......
[15:50] <robert1971> No shit
[15:50] <fuzzylugnuts> robert1971: if you have the money, go for DC-DC converters instead of linear regulators
[15:50] <edmoore> def - much more efficient
[15:50] <robert1971> Will do
[15:50] <robert1971> I would have missed that
[15:51] <edmoore> Scientists always sem to want to get involved in engineering
[15:51] <edmoore> 'can't you just deploy the parachute at mach 2.4 rather than 2.1?'
[15:51] <edmoore> 'no.'
[15:51] <fuzzylugnuts> *cerebellumed*
[15:53] <robert1971> http://uk.farnell.com/1439036/semiconductors-integrated-circuits/product.us0?sku=analog-devices-adp1111anz
[15:53] <robert1971> Something like that
[15:55] <robert1971> I need to find out the operating voltage of my kit too :) Servo 6v, Camera 3.6v, AVR dev board 9v, gumstix?
[15:55] <edmoore> this is what you want
[15:55] <edmoore> http://uk.farnell.com/1470502/semiconductors-integrated-circuits/product.us0?sku=texas-instruments-pth08080wah
[15:56] <edmoore> if you could tolerate 5V for the servo (which you can given it doesn't have to do any actual man-work) then the above is perfect
[15:56] <edmoore> used on lots of autopilot projects
[15:56] <edmoore> 9V for the avr dev board!?
[16:00] <robert1971> It's got a converter on it. 9 -30v input
[16:01] <robert1971> Power: DC 7.0 to 20.0V
[16:02] <robert1971> http://www.active-robots.com/products/controllr/m32db.shtml
[16:02] <fuzzylugnuts> robert1971: if you don't care about rechargable batteries, the energizer AA lithiums are pretty darn good. A 6v, 3Ah pack weighs 70g. In comparison to the A123's, a 3.3v 2.3 Ah battery weighs 70g.
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[16:05] <fuzzylugnuts> I've only flown A123's because the group's payloads were already just under the exemption weight, so a few extra grams didn't matter. They have work beautifully.
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[16:09] <ShellEvil> AA lithiums aren't great compared with more normal lithiums.
[16:09] <robert1971> Ok guys thanks for all that input. I'v got to do a bit of work for a bit. edmoore: I have ordered that converter. Thanks for the pointers.
[16:09] <ShellEvil> Compared to 18650s forex - which'll give you 7.2V at 2.2Ah for 36g
[16:16] <fuzzylugnuts> umm
[16:16] <fuzzylugnuts> I might be reading this wrong, but the 18650 weighs 46 gram for a single cell
[16:16] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.batteryjunction.com/li18322mahre.html
[16:16] <ShellEvil> You are.
[16:16] <ShellEvil> They don't.
[16:16] <ShellEvil> At least - mine don't.
[16:17] <fuzzylugnuts> got a link to the ones you got?
[16:17] <ShellEvil> the above dealextreme link
[16:19] <fuzzylugnuts> Dimensions: 6.5 in x 1.7 in x 1.7 in
[16:19] <fuzzylugnuts> Weight: 3.39 oz
[16:20] <ShellEvil> they are 18mm*65mm long
[16:20] <fuzzylugnuts> looks like the specs are all goofed up on that site
[16:20] Action: ShellEvil checks
[16:22] <ShellEvil> Sorry.
[16:22] <ShellEvil> Looks like I suffered a parity error.
[16:22] <ShellEvil> 40g or so is sane.
[16:22] <ShellEvil> Just checked with a few cells I have lying around
[16:23] <fuzzylugnuts> no prob.
[16:31] <fuzzylugnuts> http://68.34.212.42/scrap/batt.jpg
[16:31] <fuzzylugnuts> thats what I'm going to power my tinytraks with.
[16:31] <ShellEvil> fair enough
[16:32] <fuzzylugnuts> 6v, 3ah, 70g it works for me.
[16:32] <fuzzylugnuts> plus a dc-dc converter.
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[16:49] <robert1971> RADIO has arrived
[16:50] <fuzzylugnuts> which one?
[16:51] <edmoore> robert1971: exciting!
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[16:56] <robert1971> FT-817ND
[16:56] <robert1971> http://www.radioworld.co.uk/~radio/catalog/yaesu-ft817-p-348.html?osCsid=837e25feb3dd66495db356669f082ecf
[16:56] <fuzzylugnuts> :DDDDD
[16:56] <robert1971> If you are interested
[16:56] <fuzzylugnuts> I have one of thise
[16:56] <gordonjcp> nice
[16:56] <robert1971> Tell me it's a good choice
[16:57] <fuzzylugnuts> http://68.34.212.42/arches_spring/IMG_0023_1.JPG
[16:57] <fuzzylugnuts> it is
[16:57] <fuzzylugnuts> superb
[16:57] <fuzzylugnuts> there is mine in arches national park.
[16:57] <robert1971> That's the one
[16:57] <fuzzylugnuts> I love it.
[16:57] <gordonjcp> they look really good
[16:57] <robert1971> Have no idea how to use it though
[16:57] <gordonjcp> I need to pick up something that will resolve SSB
[16:58] <fuzzylugnuts> haha, yeah, read the manual
[16:58] <gordonjcp> if I add a BFO to an FM handie, that should work ok for CW shouldn' tit?
[16:58] <fuzzylugnuts> I don't know
[16:59] <gordonjcp> oh well
[16:59] <fuzzylugnuts> http://68.34.212.42/arches_spring/IMG_0024_1.JPG the 817 is the perfect backpacking hf radio.
[16:59] <gordonjcp> guess I'd better try it
[16:59] <fuzzylugnuts> robert1971: what do you want to do with it?
[17:00] <robert1971> is that an antenae on the back hanging in the air
[17:00] <gordonjcp> I'm still impressed that I could get 5/9 signals from AO-51 with a cheap chinese handie and an antenna made out of the wrong stuff from B&Q
[17:01] <gordonjcp> I could hear guys from Austria working the satellite
[17:01] <robert1971> Track eventually when I get rtty sorted. I think a beakon will be the first step
[17:01] <robert1971> beacon
[17:01] <fuzzylugnuts> wow, cool
[17:01] <gordonjcp> couldn't get a mobile phone signal, but I could hear guys in Austria talking to guys in Ireland
[17:01] <ShellEvil> gordonjcp: top tip.
[17:01] <ShellEvil> gordonjcp: Radio waves can't read labels :)
[17:01] <gordonjcp> ShellEvil: indeed
[17:02] <gordonjcp> this was just a thrown-together K5OE yagi
[17:03] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm still waiting for the vx-8r
[17:04] <robert1971> fuzzylugnuts: was that an antenae on the back hanging in the air
[17:04] <robert1971> fuzzylugnuts: second pic
[17:05] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah, its a 20m dipole strung 3ft off the ground between my trecking poles and a gas pipeline marker.
[17:06] <fuzzylugnuts> I was able to contact a guy in florida from utah, using 5w.
[17:06] <fuzzylugnuts> http://68.34.212.42/arches_spring/arches.html
[17:06] <fuzzylugnuts> thats the pics from that trip
[17:06] <edmoore> 5W
[17:06] <edmoore> yummy
[17:07] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, totally lucky break in the band
[17:07] <fuzzylugnuts> ssb, btw.
[17:07] <fuzzylugnuts> not cw.
[17:09] <fuzzylugnuts> robert1971: I applied the frequency expansion mod for the 817 with success
[17:11] <gordonjcp> fuzzylugnuts: which band were you on?
[17:11] <gordonjcp> oh, 20m
[17:11] <fuzzylugnuts> yepyep
[17:12] <fuzzylugnuts> it was so nice.
[17:12] <fuzzylugnuts> "What's your qth?" "In the desert in arches NP"
[17:12] <gordonjcp> hmm, didn't think there was a phone allocation in 14MHz
[17:12] Action: gordonjcp will need to check the bandplans
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[17:14] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/allocate.html#20
[17:19] <fuzzylugnuts> I have a general class.
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[17:23] <robert1971> off home to play with radio
[17:23] <robert1971> ttfn
[17:23] <fuzzylugnuts> laters
[17:23] <robert1971> fuzzylugnuts: yep
[17:23] <robert1971> \quit
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[17:52] <edmoore> fnoble: ping
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[17:54] <robert1971> fuzzylugnuts: To put the batter in do you have to remove both screes from that pannel at the back?
[17:54] <robert1971> batteries*
[17:55] <edmoore> anyone know where to find powdered bismuth?
[17:56] <robert1971> edmoore: what do you want that for ballast?
[17:56] <edmoore> aye
[17:57] <fuzzylugnuts> robert1971: just pull the nub on the battery compartment toward the front of the 817
[17:57] <jcoxon> hey all
[17:57] <fuzzylugnuts> robert1971: you'll probably need a little flatblade or a knife to get the cover up a little
[17:58] <fuzzylugnuts> edmoore: http://cgi.ebay.com/Bismuth-granular-300-g_W0QQitemZ250287802027QQihZ015QQcategoryZ104233QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[17:58] <edmoore> why didn't I think of ebay!?
[17:58] <fuzzylugnuts> sarcasm?
[17:59] <edmoore> no!
[17:59] <fuzzylugnuts> oh, ok :)
[17:59] <edmoore> just it seems to sell everything
[18:00] <fuzzylugnuts> I found a control unit for a proportional counter on there, from 1984, for the counting lab in idaho
[18:00] <fuzzylugnuts> I was like, wtf?
[18:01] <edmoore> I think sand might actually do the trick
[18:01] <fuzzylugnuts> as long as its dry
[18:02] <edmoore> iron filings
[18:02] <edmoore> bingo
[18:03] <edmoore> 10 x 10 x 10cm = ~3kg
[18:03] <robert1971> fuzzylugnuts: thanks for that. i Have a screw through the battery nub at the top and the cover seemed a bit stiff. So I thought I may have to remove the screw at the bottom of the cover too
[18:03] <edmoore> larvely
[18:03] <fuzzylugnuts> robert1971: yeah, it is a pain. I don't even use that battery pack anymore
[18:04] <robert1971> edmoore You working on that pond crossing
[18:04] <robert1971> I got a rechargeable but I want to play when i get home
[18:04] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[18:04] <robert1971> I saw that big pack in the pic
[18:04] <fuzzylugnuts> that was overkill
[18:04] <robert1971> must leave work now !!!!
[18:04] <fuzzylugnuts> 4.6Ah
[18:04] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[18:05] <robert1971> got to stop at farnell's on the way home as it is.
[18:05] <robert1971> TTFN agina
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[18:18] <fuzzylugnuts> getting a tv, bbl
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[21:40] <fnoble_lab> hello
[21:40] <fuzzylugnuts> Hey
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[21:42] <fnoble_lab> hows things?
[21:43] <fuzzylugnuts> Good
[21:43] <fuzzylugnuts> in the lab?
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[21:44] <ShellEvil> np: 50 cent - In da lab.
[21:49] <fuzzylugnuts> I found a shop today that is a total battery store
[21:49] <fuzzylugnuts> thats all they sell
[21:50] <fuzzylugnuts> but they were closed for labor day ;_;
[21:52] <fnoble_lab> yeah, im down in our basement broom cupboard
[21:53] <fnoble_lab> got to get some work done on non spaceflight stuff :(
[21:53] <fuzzylugnuts> haha
[21:53] <fnoble_lab> getting some boost regulators working for a torch
[21:53] <fuzzylugnuts> groovy
[21:53] <fnoble_lab> its far less groovy than it sounds
[21:54] <ShellEvil> fnoble_lab: dealextreme.com have pre-built boards.
[21:54] <fnoble_lab> the boost reg is ok actually, but its controlled by a microcontroller which is refusing to program :(
[21:54] <fnoble_lab> ShellEvil: this is for a commercial project, got to be a custom job to integrate with other things
[21:55] <ShellEvil> fnoble_lab: fair enough.
[21:55] Action: ShellEvil built a _silly_ torch the other day.
[21:55] <fnoble_lab> yeah?
[21:56] <fuzzylugnuts> I just radiate naturally
[21:56] <ShellEvil> 3W white LED, with the top pulled off, so the visible area was 1mm^2 or so
[21:56] <fnoble_lab> i want to make a HID torch
[21:56] <ShellEvil> 60cm fresnel lens.
[21:56] <ShellEvil> Beam was visible damn near forever.
[21:56] <fnoble_lab> hehe
[21:57] <fnoble_lab> this is for a luxeon led, so bloody bright too
[21:57] <ShellEvil> cree++
[21:57] <fnoble_lab> i hear cree are good yeah
[21:57] <fnoble_lab> well its designed to run almost any led actually
[21:57] <ShellEvil> For efficiency really.
[21:57] <ShellEvil> why is it special? - that it's worth making one?
[21:57] <fnoble_lab> its basically a programmable current source 0-2.5A
[21:58] <fnoble_lab> erm, well its not all that special
[21:58] <fnoble_lab> it has some unusual features but ive probably said too much already
[21:58] <fnoble_lab> its all under NDA blah
[21:58] <ShellEvil> Current sources are good especially with cree - as the efficiency goes way up.
[21:59] <ShellEvil> IIRC 140lm/W at about .05W
[21:59] <fnoble_lab> whats the total lumen output?
[21:59] <fnoble_lab> max
[21:59] <ShellEvil> IIRC 180lm on the XR-E parts
[21:59] <ShellEvil> 100lm@1W
[22:00] <ShellEvil> 250lm@1A
[22:00] <ShellEvil> oops
[22:00] <ShellEvil> 250lm@1A
[22:00] <ShellEvil> oh - not mischan
[22:01] <ShellEvil> you lose a lot if you want warm white though
[22:01] <fnoble_lab> dont really want warm white
[22:01] <fnoble_lab> do they do an IR version?
[22:01] <ShellEvil> I noted the other day that a lithium-ion powered flashlight optimised could get 5mm/s delta-v :)
[22:02] <ShellEvil> No - unless you really overdrive them :)
[22:02] <fnoble_lab> hehe
[22:03] <ShellEvil> It's astonishing that from say a decade back, we're now at the point we can't get the last decades improvement in LED efficiency again.
[22:03] <fnoble_lab> yeah its awesome
[22:03] <ShellEvil> Simply as about 250-300lm/W is about the fundamental limit of 'white'.
[22:03] <fnoble_lab> they are easily bright enough to replace all filament bulbs
[22:03] <fnoble_lab> just price needs to come down before people will use it more
[22:04] <ShellEvil> Heat is a bitch.
[22:04] <fuzzylugnuts> bitch in heat
[22:04] <ShellEvil> filiment bulbs don't have thermal problems.
[22:04] <ShellEvil> LEDs if you get them over 75C, they usually have life problems.
[22:05] <fnoble_lab> true
[22:05] <fnoble_lab> but meh, the lifetime is already so much more than a filament
[22:05] <fnoble_lab> it will come
[22:05] <ShellEvil> In builtin lighting apps, LED is already cost effective.
[22:06] <ShellEvil> But nobody does it as it's quite expensive.
[22:07] <ShellEvil> As you've probably noticed - it's utterly no contest in small bulbs - under 5W.
[22:07] <fuzzylugnuts> I think I saw some luxeon on sparkfun
[22:07] <ShellEvil> dealextreme.com has the bare bulbs.
[22:07] <ShellEvil> LEDs
[22:09] <ShellEvil> I want to try a silly light.
[22:09] <ShellEvil> 2*A123
[22:09] <ShellEvil> handheld.
[22:09] <fnoble_lab> ShellEvil: try a DIY HID lamp
[22:09] <fuzzylugnuts> yay : )
[22:09] <ShellEvil> 400*1W LEDs
[22:09] <fnoble_lab> that would be fun
[22:10] <ShellEvil> In a close-packed array.
[22:10] <ShellEvil> Of course, 10s burst max.
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[22:16] Action: ShellEvil wonders what the legality of a underwater R/C vehicle with a shark-fin on top would be.
[22:17] <fuzzylugnuts> its easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission
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[22:26] <Laurenceb_> hello
[22:26] <fuzzylugnuts> Hey
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[22:27] <Laurenceb_> hi RocketBoyv1
[22:27] <fuzzylugnuts> Laurenceb_: did you look at that pdf I linked you to?
[22:27] <Laurenceb_> yeah but I've lost it now sorry
[22:28] <Laurenceb_> do you have the link?
[22:28] <fuzzylugnuts> one sec
[22:28] <Laurenceb_> RocketBoyv1: what voltages do you give the nxt2 for RTTY?
[22:28] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.ludlums.com/manuals/M12jun07.pdf
[22:28] <fuzzylugnuts> pg 44
[22:29] <fnoble_lab> fuzzylugnuts: ah the ludlum 12
[22:30] <fnoble_lab> a fine beast
[22:30] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[22:30] <fnoble_lab> oooh, it has schematics
[22:30] <fuzzylugnuts> omg yes. Ludlum is great for that.
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> thanks, looking
[22:31] <fnoble_lab> think it would be hard to make?
[22:31] <fuzzylugnuts> that particular arrangement supplies up to 2.5kv at 250uA
[22:31] <Laurenceb_> what does it do?
[22:31] <fuzzylugnuts> omg not at all
[22:31] <fnoble_lab> that would save me a few quid replacing the one that got thrown away
[22:32] <fuzzylugnuts> oh
[22:32] <fnoble_lab> Laurenceb_: its a survey meter
[22:32] <Laurenceb_> whats one of those when its at home?
[22:32] <fnoble_lab> Laurenceb_: you attach it to various kinds of radiation detector and it gives you a reading
[22:32] <fuzzylugnuts> fnoble_lab: oh... the whooooole thing. that would be a pain, and you'd be better off going digital.
[22:33] <Laurenceb_> oh
[22:33] <Laurenceb_> geiger counter
[22:33] <fnoble_lab> fuzzylugnuts: maybe not the whole thing, maybe the preamp and hv supply would be good though
[22:33] <fuzzylugnuts> when a geiger tube is connected
[22:33] <fuzzylugnuts> fnoble_lab: Yeah
[22:33] <fnoble_lab> Laurenceb_: you can connect other things too
[22:33] <ShellEvil> A muller tube - for when hunting strange things!
[22:33] <fnoble_lab> Laurenceb_: i used mine with a BF3 tube to detect neutrons
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> sure
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> I have one somewhere
[22:34] <Laurenceb_> just didnt realise it was called a survey meter
[22:35] <fuzzylugnuts> we have about 25, 2221s at work, and maybe 15 model 12s
[22:35] <fuzzylugnuts> lots of other stuff.
[22:35] <fuzzylugnuts> its a fun job
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[22:40] <fnoble_lab> fuzzylugnuts: if any happen to go missing...
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[22:41] <edmoore> hi fnoble
[22:41] <edmoore> fnoble_lab:
[22:42] <fuzzylugnuts> haha. Its easy and ok and legal. They would throw some of these out becayse they are pretty beat, so I just submit an excess form
[22:43] <fnoble_lab> edmoore: hello
[22:49] <fnoble_lab> fuzzylugnuts: if you see them throwing one out i would be interested in re-homing it
[22:49] <fuzzylugnuts> so would I ; P
[22:49] <fnoble_lab> hehe
[22:51] <fuzzylugnuts> I might be putting one of my BF3 tubes up though
[22:51] <fuzzylugnuts> they are made for high flux though
[22:51] <fnoble_lab> yeahm i already have one that fits my needs
[22:51] <fuzzylugnuts> *nod*
[22:52] <fuzzylugnuts> do you still mess with that thing?
[22:52] <fnoble_lab> want to get it up and running again
[22:52] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[22:52] <fnoble_lab> but seeing as im at uni that means finding someone/where who wont freak out about it to give it a home
[22:53] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[22:53] <fuzzylugnuts> they would probably get nervous since its a radiation producing machine
[22:54] <fnoble_lab> yeah, and the HV stuff too
[22:54] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[22:54] <fnoble_lab> could probably convince them the neutron flux was low enough to be ok
[22:54] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[22:54] <fnoble_lab> and just not let on about all the x-rays
[22:54] <fnoble_lab> ;)
[22:54] <fuzzylugnuts> what is the highest voltage that you run it at?
[22:55] <fnoble_lab> oh i cant remember that well
[22:55] <fnoble_lab> the problem was we could only coarsly control the flow rate into the chamber so we could never get the pressure low enough for really high voltages
[22:55] <fnoble_lab> i think we got 35kv though
[22:55] <fuzzylugnuts> ah, ok
[22:57] <fuzzylugnuts> thats pretty low. The SS chamber would shield most all of that.
[22:57] <fnoble_lab> ok
[22:57] <fnoble_lab> i left a geiger around and that clicked a bit
[22:58] <fnoble_lab> but it could be electrical interference
[22:59] <fuzzylugnuts> i'd only get nervous if it saturated and just whined steadily.
[22:59] <fnoble_lab> ok, cool
[23:00] <fuzzylugnuts> a 1 mr/hr field will make a pancake probe go bananas, but be of no concern to you.
[23:00] <ShellEvil> Mmmm.
[23:00] <ShellEvil> Pancakes.
[23:00] <fnoble_lab> this was one of those dodgy plastic russian ones :)
[23:01] <ShellEvil> Flavoured with vodka!
[23:01] <fnoble_lab> surplus cold war stock i expect
[23:01] <fuzzylugnuts> oh man
[23:01] <fuzzylugnuts> ghetto
[23:01] <fnoble_lab> not an analytical instrument you could say
[23:02] <fuzzylugnuts> qualitative
[23:03] <ShellEvil> Calibrate with a 10 megaton explosion at 47Km.
[23:05] <fnoble_lab> brb
[23:08] Action: ShellEvil sees a flash in the distance.
[23:08] <fnoble_lab> sorry, just calibrating my geiger counter
[23:09] <fuzzylugnuts> using?
[23:09] <fnoble_lab> was a joke
[23:09] <fnoble_lab> as in thats why ShellEvil saw the flash
[23:09] <fnoble_lab> :p
[23:09] <fuzzylugnuts> oh...
[23:09] <fuzzylugnuts> : (
[23:09] <fnoble_lab> ok, brb really now
[23:18] <fnoble_lab> back
[23:26] <fuzzylugnuts> god damn this sausage is good.
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[23:26] <fnoble_lab> hi edmoore
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[23:27] <Laurenceb_> back
[23:27] <Laurenceb_> lol
[23:29] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: recover those emails?
[23:34] <fnoble_lab> edmoore: any tricks for getting your iron to recognise its bit?
[23:34] <fnoble_lab> its being a pain
[23:40] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: nope :(
[23:40] <Laurenceb_> oh well
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> Damn.
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> Sorry.
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> Anything vital?
[23:40] <Laurenceb_> fnoble_lab: you have bit recognition?
[23:41] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: not that I cant sort out
[23:41] Action: SpeedEvil has only had soldering irons where bit recognition was limited to working out which bit to jam onto the element.
[23:42] <Laurenceb_> hehe me too
[23:43] <fuzzylugnuts> does anyone else use those solder fume filters?
[23:43] <Laurenceb_> maybe there is a usb bit interface ?
[23:43] <Laurenceb_> I used one at work... health and safety :P
[23:44] <fuzzylugnuts> *nodnods* me too
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[23:45] <fnoble_lab> Laurenceb_: its a temperature controlled iron
[23:45] <fnoble_lab> Laurenceb_: when the bit is loose it goes wierd
[23:46] <fnoble_lab> Laurenceb_: but i cant get it to stay locked in
[23:46] <Laurenceb_> ah
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[23:47] <Laurenceb_> hmm what happens if I typecast something >128 to s08 ?
[23:47] <fnoble_lab> you will get a negative number
[23:48] <fnoble_lab> to find out which one look up twos-complement encoding
[23:49] <Laurenceb_> ah
[23:49] <Laurenceb_> ok thats no problem
[00:00] --- Tue Sep 2 2008