highaltitude.log.20080830

[00:01] <ShellEvil> dou: what are these put together with?
[00:06] <JamesCanvin> If anyone is still out there, see - http://www.nivnac.co.uk/blog1.php/2008/08/29/haps-d-nova8-360-degree-panorama-v2
[00:09] Action: ShellEvil is.
[00:09] <ShellEvil> :/
[00:09] <ShellEvil> np: Sex Pistols - Pretty Vacant.
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[00:10] <ShellEvil> too many clouds alas.
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[00:10] <akawaka> Laurenceb: code?
[00:11] <ShellEvil> Are you treating points as ints?
[00:12] <Laurenceb> just a sec
[00:13] <akawaka> Laurenceb: it just means you are setting assigning a signed pointer to an unsigned pointer
[00:13] <akawaka> or vice-versa
[00:13] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:parafoil_tsip
[00:13] <Laurenceb> I see
[00:14] <Laurenceb> that code now has optimised descent navigation :P
[00:14] <Laurenceb> it will use the wind to help it get to the target waypoint
[00:15] <Laurenceb> e.g say there is strong wind near the ground, it will go upwind from the target in the higher layers of the atmosphere
[00:15] <ShellEvil> Is there any land ata all in that image?
[00:15] <ShellEvil> Playing with colour mapping, I'm not sure.
[00:16] <Laurenceb> aha
[00:16] <Laurenceb> I'm putting signed chars in eeprom
[00:16] <Laurenceb> think thats the problem... but is it a real issue?
[00:16] <Laurenceb> surely the eeprom doesnt care
[00:17] <Laurenceb> its just the libc eeprom function that are acting up and giving the warning
[00:17] <akawaka> no
[00:17] <akawaka> but you should clean up warnings
[00:22] <Laurenceb> ok
[00:23] <Laurenceb> I've just opdated it again, that issue isnt fixed but I think the optimised decent is done
[00:24] <Laurenceb> Target = atan2((targeteast - Gps.longitude + descent_drift_e)*cos(Gps.latitude),targetnorth - Gps.latitude + descent_drift_n);
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[00:24] <Laurenceb> ^ that adds the modelled descent drift in the case of a spiralling descent onto the target waypoint
[00:25] <Laurenceb> which I think is the best way to do it if you use a layered atmospheric model
[00:26] <Laurenceb> theres a numerical integration that runs just before cutdown (~20ms runtime on the avr), then you can just take layers off one by one as you descend
[00:27] <Laurenceb> ok, the warnings are coming from e.g eeprom_read_byte(&windeast[L])
[00:28] <Laurenceb> "argument one pointer targets differ in signedness"
[00:31] <ShellEvil> What is L signed as?
[00:32] <Laurenceb> int
[00:33] <Laurenceb> its in the code I linked
[00:33] <ShellEvil> I diddn't see link
[00:33] <ShellEvil> oh
[00:35] <ShellEvil> unsigned int L ?
[00:35] Action: ShellEvil is too tired for this. Sorry.
[00:38] <Laurenceb> thanks for the help :P
[00:43] <Laurenceb> finally, everything is in radians now as well
[00:44] <ShellEvil> That must give you a degree of relief.
[00:46] <Laurenceb> he
[00:48] <Laurenceb> http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/group__avr__eeprom.html#g2975502e9ba34bccdcf20e0da15575aa
[00:48] <Laurenceb> looks like it doesnt like me giving it a S08 pointer
[00:49] <Laurenceb> will that matter?
[00:52] <Laurenceb> s08 pointers and u08 pointers both point to 8 bit variables, so no issues?
[00:53] <akawaka> Laurenceb: shouldn't be an issue
[00:53] <akawaka> just cast it to the right pointer type to get rid of the warning
[00:54] <Laurenceb> (u08*) ?
[00:55] <akawaka> yeah
[00:55] <Laurenceb> ah
[00:56] <Laurenceb> indeed it does
[00:56] <Laurenceb> I just have "discarded qualifier" warnings now
[00:57] <Laurenceb> and thats caused by unecessary (at the time in question) use of volatile variables?
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[01:00] <Laurenceb> right, time for some sleep cya all
[01:00] <Laurenceb> thanks for the help
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[07:50] <jcoxon> morning robert1971
[07:51] <jcoxon> looking in the logs you wanted to ask something
[07:51] <robert1971> yep Did you write a parser for nmea to the tracker
[07:52] <robert1971> You're very dedicated james, reading the logs
[07:52] <jcoxon> oh i keep an eye
[07:53] <jcoxon> the data isn't transmited as nmea
[07:53] <jcoxon> the flight computer does teh parsing
[07:53] <robert1971> Ok into natrium's format
[07:53] <jcoxon> Badger 4775,3:40:2,4,52.1131,0.241296,5780.89,9,0
[07:53] <jcoxon> for example
[07:54] <jcoxon> so i have a program that splits this and shows it in my gui
[07:54] <jcoxon> and then re orders it and sends it to the tracker
[07:54] <jcoxon> written in ruby and rubycocoa
[07:54] <robert1971> with the N:Badger,Lat:....
[07:54] <jcoxon> yup
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[07:55] <robert1971> cool I'm going to look at exteding to include further optional info. Forcing a mininmum of name and position
[07:55] <jcoxon> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/missions:haps:haps-1#ground_station
[07:56] <robert1971> I would like temp1, 2 & 3 / pressure / humidity etc
[07:57] <jcoxon> oh cool
[07:57] <jcoxon> well if you get in touch with natrium he could perhaps intergrate that into the original as well
[07:57] <robert1971> If they are never sent they wont be displayed and if the data is missing the current readin will say n/a
[07:59] <robert1971> Yep I have told him to take anything he wants. I'm going to give him an admin logon to www.robertharrison.org. I'll slip you one in too. The same pass as we used the other day and your handle on here
[08:01] <jcoxon> oh thanks
[08:01] <jcoxon> though it might be best to email me that pass as i can't remember what we agreed
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[08:13] <robert1971> should be working now
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[09:17] <robert1971> Thats better ...
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[09:20] <robert1971> natrium: As you can see I had a few difficulties with the divs and the layout
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[10:53] <robert1971> natrium: I'm going to wait till version 2 of the tracker is available i'm in CSS hell at the moment :)
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[11:16] <Laurenceb> hi everyone
[11:17] <fnoble> hi Laurenceb
[11:17] <fnoble> you wanted to ask omething earlier?
[11:17] <Laurenceb> hi, yeah
[11:18] <Laurenceb> oh congrats on yesterday :P
[11:18] <Laurenceb> but yes, I was thinking about using a badger board
[11:18] <Laurenceb> is all the io 3.3v ?
[11:18] <fnoble> yes
[11:18] <Laurenceb> and theres a 3.3v switching reg onboard?
[11:19] <fnoble> allthough 5v power will be available in v2
[11:19] <fnoble> yes
[11:19] <Laurenceb> ah
[11:19] <Laurenceb> how long till version2 ?
[11:19] <Laurenceb> I probably wont have time for this till christmas
[11:19] <fnoble> we hope before christmas
[11:19] <Laurenceb> cool
[11:20] <fnoble> we dont intend to make any more of the v1 boards
[11:20] <Laurenceb> my plan is to have a daughterboard with an AVR running off 3.3v
[11:20] <Laurenceb> acting as an i2c slave
[11:20] <Laurenceb> if there is a 5V supply thats perfect for running the melexis gyro over spi
[11:21] <fnoble> v2 will have gyros
[11:21] <Laurenceb> the daughterboard will generate pwm or use pwm from an rc rx
[11:21] <Laurenceb> which ones?
[11:21] <fnoble> that is why we put the 5v power on there
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[11:21] <fnoble> i think they are going to be analogue devices ones
[11:22] <Laurenceb> hmm
[11:22] <fnoble> final decision not made yet
[11:22] <Laurenceb> last time I looked the melexis was still better
[11:22] <fnoble> but they weill be melexis or better
[11:22] <Laurenceb> ok
[11:22] <Laurenceb> they have some new ranges but it was £££ when I looked
[11:22] <Laurenceb> thats cool then
[11:23] <Laurenceb> so It'd only need i2c
[11:23] <fnoble> i2c and spi are broken out
[11:23] <Laurenceb> and my v2 radio board has 3.3v i2c, so that can go on the bus as well
[11:23] <fnoble> but why would you fly an avr as well?
[11:23] <Laurenceb> for hardware pwm
[11:24] <fnoble> for controlling servos?
[11:24] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:24] <fnoble> cool
[11:24] <Laurenceb> and monitoring rc recievers
[11:24] <Laurenceb> and the servo power supply
[11:24] <fnoble> cool
[11:24] <Laurenceb> I have a ton of stuff from rapid just arrived
[11:24] <Laurenceb> including parts for some smd 3A smps
[11:24] <fnoble> the onboard 5v will not be powerful enough for big/many servos btw
[11:25] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:25] <Laurenceb> hence this plan
[11:25] <fnoble> yup, cool
[11:25] <Laurenceb> I have thermal fuses as well
[11:26] <Laurenceb> my plan is to launch the mini rogallo from ~8Km
[11:26] <Laurenceb> then start work on this design
[11:26] <fnoble> sweet
[11:26] <fnoble> well i wouldnt base anything on the badger
[11:26] <Laurenceb> as to get higher you really need more complex stuff
[11:26] <fnoble> the design is still in flux
[11:27] <Laurenceb> i.e. PID loop constants need to change ect
[11:27] <fnoble> and we need to discuss how/when we will release the design
[11:27] <Laurenceb> right
[11:27] <fnoble> Laurenceb, sounds awesome
[11:27] <fnoble> i would love to try some kind of parafoil or rogallo some day
[11:28] <Laurenceb> yeah, at the moment the only things to improve in my code are descent route optimisation and control at high altitudes
[11:28] <Laurenceb> the optimisation code I added last night treats the atmosphere as a simple series of layers
[11:28] <Laurenceb> whats the resolution of the forcast data you were using?
[11:29] <fnoble> 0.5 degrees
[11:29] <Laurenceb> hmm
[11:29] <Laurenceb> quite large then
[11:29] <fnoble> yeah
[11:29] <Laurenceb> it may not be worth expanding on this technique then
[11:30] <Laurenceb> as you're not going to fly past many (if any) grid points
[11:30] <fnoble> no, but the data gives the variation in time and altitude
[11:30] <Laurenceb> whats the time between forcasts?
[11:30] <fnoble> as well
[11:30] <Laurenceb> sure
[11:31] <Laurenceb> at the moment my atmosphere is a series of x and y velocities for 100m this horizontal layers
[11:31] <Laurenceb> *thick
[11:32] <fnoble> the grib data is based on layers of pressure
[11:32] <Laurenceb> ah yes
[11:33] <fnoble> but the resolution is less than 100m
[11:33] <Laurenceb> nice
[11:33] <fnoble> but we interpolate
[11:33] <fnoble> i mean, less good than 100m sorry
[11:33] <Laurenceb> what about time then?
[11:33] <fnoble> cant remember
[11:33] <Laurenceb> doesnt matter
[11:33] <Laurenceb> where do you download from?
[11:33] <fnoble> the time is very good i think though
[11:34] <Laurenceb> yeah, if time is better than an hour its worth me doing this
[11:35] <fnoble> yeah, i will ask rob about it, he did the actual forecasting bit
[11:35] <Laurenceb> thanx
[11:35] <Laurenceb> the other thing is how to adjust the pid loop... I think the crux is that if you're moving faster you have greater momentum
[11:36] <Laurenceb> so servo angle needs to be greater to get the same yaw rate
[11:36] <Laurenceb> hence P needs to be greater... ?
[11:36] <Laurenceb> but I'm confused... especially about what happens to D
[11:36] <fnoble> sounds sensible
[11:37] <fnoble> erm, i dont know muchabout PID loops, edmoore will know more
[11:37] <Laurenceb> theoretically speed as a function of altitude is easy to find if you know ground speed - its just like with chutes
[11:38] <Laurenceb> nvm then :D
[11:38] <Laurenceb> ground speed = glide speed if you're near the ground
[11:38] <Laurenceb> i.e. do a test launch then look at a video frame by frame
[11:39] <Laurenceb> actually forget that, you just need to know how to scale P and D with altitude
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[11:40] <fnoble> surely the difference is that with chutes the ground speed is the wind speed as on average they are at rest in the wind frame
[11:40] <Laurenceb> sure
[11:40] <Laurenceb> sorry I used the wrong terminology
[11:40] <fnoble> whereas you will have velocity relative to the wind too
[11:40] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:40] <Laurenceb> s/ground speed/airspeed at ground level
[11:44] <Laurenceb> any idea where I could get this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Futaba-FSH5801-Servo-Horn-Winch-Drum-FUTFSH5801_W0QQitemZ220246113723QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220246113723&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177
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[11:44] <Laurenceb> hi edmoore
[11:44] <edmoore> morning all
[11:44] <fnoble> hi ed
[11:44] <edmoore> hi Laurenceb
[11:44] <edmoore> hi fnoble
[11:45] <fnoble> good sleep?
[11:45] <edmoore> I am just waiting on a call from Steve or Shane (work) so I can grab the office key to rescue my stuff. Then I can badger it up
[11:45] <edmoore> yeah not bad!
[11:45] <edmoore> you?
[11:45] <edmoore> should do it more often, fnoble
[11:45] <edmoore> very am launches on fridays during term
[11:45] <edmoore> recover on saturday
[11:46] <edmoore> very 'AM'*
[11:46] <gordonjcp> mornin
[11:46] <gordonjcp> g
[11:46] <edmoore> I liked Iain's policy. Deleriously "from now on all launched have to be dawn launches!"
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[11:47] <fnoble> yeah, its better
[11:47] <edmoore> there are compelling reasons to defaul to it unless there's an an actual reason not to
[11:48] <edmoore> sleep when you're dead etc
[11:48] <fnoble> maybe not 4am all the time, but certainly launching so you still have a good day ahead when you pick up is good
[11:48] <edmoore> yeah - straight after breakfast type thing
[11:48] <edmoore> or at dawn on the ground
[11:49] <edmoore> although it added a sense of fun to the foxhunting that we litterally got it just as the light went
[11:49] <edmoore> it was a race against newton
[11:50] <Laurenceb> edmoore: congrats
[11:50] <fnoble> edmoore, yeah its fun
[11:51] <Laurenceb> ed: I've been getting confused by PID loops for rogallo control at altitude, obviously you'l be flying faster
[11:51] <Laurenceb> so yuo have greater momentum, thus a given servo angle produces smaller yaw rate
[11:51] <Laurenceb> so P should be larger?
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[11:54] <edmoore> Laurenceb:
[11:54] <edmoore> good question
[11:54] <edmoore> theoretically you have a pitot tube
[11:54] <edmoore> since response is a function of dyanamic pressure
[11:54] <edmoore> so you scale the Kp term with q
[11:55] <edmoore> so it becomes Kp/(0.6*density*v^2)
[11:55] <edmoore> sorry, 0.5 * density
[11:55] <Laurenceb> whats Kp ?
[11:55] <edmoore> The proportional gain
[11:55] <Laurenceb> got you
[11:56] <edmoore> as opposed to Ki and Kd
[11:56] <Laurenceb> sure
[11:56] <edmoore> you could probably calculate the q well enough
[11:56] <Laurenceb> whats your q ?
[11:57] <edmoore> q is dynamic pressure
[11:57] <Laurenceb> k
[11:57] <edmoore> 0.5*density*v^2
[11:57] <Laurenceb> sure
[11:57] <edmoore> a good control law has a phase margin and a gain margin - basically space to absorb unidealities until you reach the point of instability
[11:58] <edmoore> so if you don't have a pitot tube, you can probably roughly calculate q by knowing your speed and altitude
[11:58] <edmoore> and that'd be good enough
[11:58] <Laurenceb> right
[11:58] <edmoore> assuming low winds
[11:58] <Laurenceb> well I move to the air frame
[11:59] <Laurenceb> so the control loop doesnt see the wind
[11:59] <edmoore> so if you tune your control system well, you can piss about with the aerodynamics, weight, and so forth, a little bit, and still be stable
[11:59] <edmoore> exactly, so without a pitot tube you have to bodgily translate from one frame to the other
[11:59] <Laurenceb> yeah, as long as you are << an order of magnitude out it seems to work from my experience
[12:00] <fnoble> Laurenceb, you can use the predicted winds and subtract that from your groundspeed to get your velocity in the wind's frame to better accuracy
[12:00] <edmoore> i mean you could make one with £15 of sparkfun stuff
[12:00] <Laurenceb> fnoble: look at my code, thats what I do :P
[12:00] <edmoore> well you should be fine then
[12:00] <Laurenceb> so, should D be scaled similarly?
[12:01] <Laurenceb> sorry Kd :D
[12:02] <edmoore> no
[12:02] <Laurenceb> as its governed by finite servo speed and moment of inertia of the airframe?
[12:03] <edmoore> I think so, yes. But it starts getting a bit tricky for me
[12:03] <Laurenceb> me too
[12:04] <edmoore> figuring out how other terms are functions of external conditions
[12:04] Action: Laurenceb brain explodes
[12:04] <edmoore> I think you just need the proportional one
[12:04] <Laurenceb> hmm
[12:04] <edmoore> that's the main part of the control, the rest are just frilly bits :)
[12:04] <edmoore> or rather, you just ened to scale thew proportional one, in this case
[12:04] <Laurenceb> I found that D had to be quite large previously
[12:04] <Laurenceb> but I was being quite aggressive
[12:06] <Laurenceb> surely as you are creating artificial damping, you need it to scale with the changing effects of the servo
[12:10] <Laurenceb> I guess if I can do a successful launch from 8Km or so with fixed constants then it should be more apparent
[12:21] <fnoble> bbiab
[12:22] <Laurenceb> be back this evening, cya all
[12:22] Nick change: Laurenceb -> Laurenceb|away
[12:39] <robert1971> Hi edmoore
[12:39] <robert1971> You got some sleep last night?
[12:42] Nick change: fnoble -> fnoble|away
[12:42] <edmoore> robert1971: good morning!
[12:42] <edmoore> yes, though I went out to oxford first, so I really was ready for sleep when I got back
[13:02] <edmoore> right, time to be orf
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[13:57] <fnoble|away> doug_ellison, hello
[13:58] <fnoble|away> doug_ellison, do you think james will mind if we put his panoramas up on our website?
[13:58] <fnoble|away> doug_ellison, we will credit them to him of course
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[14:04] <edmoore> hi doug_ellison
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[14:19] <robert1971> Afternnon jcoxon
[14:19] <jcoxon> hey
[14:20] <edmoore> afternoon all
[14:20] <robert1971> waiting (not very patiently) for the radio to arrive on monday
[14:20] <edmoore> still ahven't eat, might go and rectify that
[14:20] <edmoore> robert1971: what did you end up getting?
[14:20] Action: robert1971 nods to edmoore, "Afternoon sir"
[14:21] <robert1971> a yaesu
[14:21] <robert1971> edmoore: http://www.radioworld.co.uk/~radio/catalog/yaesu-ft817-p-348.html?osCsid=b23b2265b1b7e3ceb2a81f9bc03d543b
[14:22] <edmoore> oh blimey, a very nice eone too!
[14:23] <robert1971> We'll I didn't have a clue what I was doing but I spoke to some gaffer there for over an hour and told him what I wanted to do with the radio and he recommended that one
[14:24] <robert1971> Something about having dedicated ports for data as I thought rtty would not be too far away and the ability to control radio using com port
[14:24] <edmoore> looks super nice
[14:24] <edmoore> next you have to work on the custom dashboard mount
[14:25] <edmoore> and the whip antenna gaffa'd onto the roof
[14:25] <edmoore> for the chase
[14:25] <robert1971> Like the movies
[14:25] <robert1971> Twister comes to mind
[14:26] <robert1971> Being playing with natrium's tracker going to put in temp sensors, baro and humidity
[14:27] <edmoore> oh grand
[14:27] <robert1971> Just got version 1 up to version 2 after a fight with the css
[14:27] <robert1971> www.robertharrison.org/tracker for a laugh
[14:28] <edmoore> I can see you!
[14:28] <edmoore> looks smashing
[14:28] <robert1971> Oh dear!
[14:28] <edmoore> haha, the good stuff
[14:29] <edmoore> that's a proper desk
[14:29] <edmoore> and a mac
[14:29] <robert1971> yep
[14:29] <edmoore> I approve
[14:30] <edmoore> the payload looks to be in great nick
[14:30] <robert1971> trying to show potential launch spot
[14:30] <robert1971> So far
[14:30] <edmoore> i can hear you well
[14:31] <edmoore> eeeeee
[14:31] <edmoore> fnoble|away uses the eee for the chase
[14:31] <edmoore> they're amazing
[14:32] <robert1971> It's convenient for size
[14:32] <edmoore> fits in my glove compartment shelf perfectly
[14:32] <edmoore> ok grand
[14:33] <edmoore> yep
[14:33] <edmoore> yes, though we found there to be a roughly 10 sec delay between live and ustream
[14:36] <edmoore> I'm really very very impressed, it's looking great. I really like the camera servo.
[14:36] <edmoore> :)
[14:36] <edmoore> will that be a lassen, the 2ndary gps?
[14:36] <robert1971> We'll see how it functions in the cold
[14:36] <robert1971> Yep, SKII
[14:37] <robert1971> You could hear the audio clearly then
[14:37] <edmoore> robert1971: if you're feeling like some surgery, you can replace the grease in the servo gear box with teflon grease
[14:37] <edmoore> that won't go solid in the cold
[14:37] <robert1971> Good idea
[14:37] <edmoore> however, given the servo is always doing something, it probably won't seize up
[14:37] <robert1971> I have three of those servos
[14:37] <robert1971> Cheep ones
[14:37] <robert1971> cheap even
[14:38] <edmoore> we have had problems though for servos that are needed only at, say, burst, just freezing up on the way
[14:38] <edmoore> very clear audio yes
[14:38] <robert1971> natrium's command center is great I just want to tweak it for a bit extra data
[14:39] <robert1971> I'm going to make it flexible. If the temp sensor data is never sent it won't show it
[14:39] <edmoore> indeed - eventually it might be fun to have 'dials' for things
[14:39] <edmoore> like internal vs external temp
[14:39] <robert1971> Optionaly turning of video etc to give screen back to the asus users
[14:40] <robert1971> Yep
[14:40] <robert1971> Int ext and camera temp
[14:40] <edmoore> some guys in the US tried to do a transatlantic balloon crossing
[14:40] <robert1971> With an open milar balloon?
[14:40] <edmoore> they had a really nice tracking set-up - I will see if there are any screenshots about
[14:40] <edmoore> yes
[14:41] <edmoore> the Spirit of Knoxville
[14:41] <edmoore> uni of tennasse
[14:41] <robert1971> I read something about that about 2 months ago when I first started getting into the idea
[14:41] <jcoxon> oh guys if you want real estate for the tracker
[14:41] <jcoxon> spacenear.uk/track
[14:41] <robert1971> Yep thats the one. Nice website
[14:41] <jcoxon> doesn't have the extra
[14:41] <edmoore> .us?
[14:42] <jcoxon> yup
[14:42] <jcoxon> thats it
[14:42] <jcoxon> so use to uk
[14:42] <edmoore> I know
[14:42] <edmoore> I got very teased when my fingers automatically typed 'a byte to eat' the other day
[14:43] <jcoxon> oh i remember :-p
[14:43] <robert1971> ha ha last sunday
[14:43] <robert1971> I thought you did that to be witty
[14:43] <edmoore> no no, genuinelly just muscle memory
[14:43] <jcoxon> edmoore, you could of got away with it if you hadn't announced it
[14:43] <jcoxon> hehe
[14:44] <edmoore> i will never delude myself about my wit
[14:44] <jcoxon> bbl
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[14:44] <edmoore> we could so do a transatlantic
[14:44] <edmoore> we have got the rig now to build our own zero pressure balloons
[14:44] <robert1971> Yep, Do you get the hams involved to help track it
[14:44] <edmoore> we would do for this
[14:45] <edmoore> natrium: still keen on t'idea?
[14:45] <robert1971> Small topup cylinder of helium operated by the sensors
[14:45] <edmoore> well, they went for the dropping ballast approach
[14:45] <edmoore> which has its advantages too
[14:46] <robert1971> I'd be up for something like that
[14:46] <robert1971> Need a nice big envelope
[14:46] <edmoore> take a quick plane flight to Canada to see natrium
[14:46] <edmoore> release it
[14:46] <robert1971> !(the paper kind)
[14:46] <edmoore> fly back
[14:46] <robert1971> UPS it to natrium
[14:46] <edmoore> and wait the 3 or 4 or 5 days that it takes to cross
[14:47] <robert1971> Pay load cutdown into the uk
[14:47] <robert1971> Be a bummer to fly into it on the way back over
[14:47] <edmoore> yeah - we can make polygon maps of europe (it could miss the uk) and it'd know when to cutdown
[14:47] <edmoore> haha
[14:47] <edmoore> might see it out the window though
[14:48] <robert1971> Perhaps it could get a push from the jetstream from the plane :)
[14:48] <edmoore> it'd be a good soak test for the badger board too
[14:49] <robert1971> Should be quite away above it. For our sakes. I guess it depends on the weight and where equilibrium is
[14:49] <robert1971> The battery will have to be quite big for that one. BTW do you have a HAM licanece
[14:49] <robert1971> licence
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[14:50] <edmoore> well you'd size it and write the ballast software so that it spent all its time in the sweet spot jetstream altitude
[14:50] <edmoore> robert1971: I don't
[14:50] <edmoore> foolishly
[14:50] <edmoore> but I really should get around to it
[14:50] <robert1971> I'm going to go and get one in the next month or so. Just do the foundation
[14:50] <edmoore> I only haven't as we don't need one for the balloon (yet) but I do need to get one so we can try uplinks
[14:51] <robert1971> I read the syllabus and i recon I could do it after 6 hours of tuition from a loacl ham
[14:51] <edmoore> we'd have to make a new radio for a balloon mission anyway. Say, 8Mhz, 5W
[14:51] <edmoore> so that it's receivable over the horizon from the other side of the atlantic
[14:51] <robert1971> I gather they can get a bit excided when non licence people play on the airwaves
[14:52] <robert1971> Woof there is going to be a car battery on this payload
[14:52] <edmoore> if you're in their territory, yes for sure
[14:52] <edmoore> ha, we'd only transmit once an hour I guess
[14:52] <robert1971> I guess you're going to need to do coms once an hour
[14:52] <edmoore> and send a heartbeat every min
[14:53] <edmoore> right, I really am going to go find something to eat. but i will be around all afternoon after
[14:53] <edmoore> going to do some pcb design for badger2
[14:53] <robert1971> Right I had better get on with some development. I hope to teather launch next w/e
[14:53] <edmoore> oh fantastic
[14:53] <robert1971> We're on the same wavelength
[14:53] <edmoore> :)
[14:53] <robert1971> Twice in a row you beat me
[14:53] <edmoore> i will bbiab then!
[14:54] <edmoore> was good to see progress - v impressive!
[14:54] <robert1971> .
[14:54] <robert1971> Cheers
[14:54] <robert1971> Got a lot to catch up to
[14:54] <edmoore> won't take any time
[14:55] Nick change: edmoore -> edmoore|away
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[16:43] <mc-> hi jcoxon, looks like you've inspired a whole generation of HABers
[16:44] <jcoxon> hey mc-
[16:44] <jcoxon> hehe
[16:44] <jcoxon> not just me
[16:44] <mc-> it wouldn't happen without IRC
[16:45] <mc-> should be HABists
[16:46] <jcoxon> Balloonists
[16:46] <jcoxon> hehe
[16:46] <mc-> Any plans for a transatlantic? I've got a 10.1MHz transmitter built
[16:47] <mc-> just needs 3.4-12V converter
[16:47] <jcoxon> there have been some discussions
[16:48] <mc-> when is the jetstream good for this?
[16:48] <jcoxon> but its a whole different kettle of fish
[16:48] <jcoxon> mc-, hmmmm i've never seen it being good
[16:48] <jcoxon> jetstreams at this latitude are west east
[16:48] <jcoxon> in the N America the best time to launch is winter
[16:48] <mc-> yes, US to UK. Autumn OK as well?
[16:49] <jcoxon> the winter is best
[16:50] <jcoxon> amusingly you want the fastest jetstream possible
[16:50] <jcoxon> or you won't make it
[16:50] <mc-> how about a few practise shots in autumn, then go for it in winter?
[16:51] <mc-> natrium's location looks perfect, if he could move further east...
[16:51] <jcoxon> haha
[16:54] <jcoxon> hmmmmm
[16:54] <jcoxon> the move from latex to zp isn't easy
[16:54] <mc-> how about a test flight from the UK using 433, when there's no js, see how long it can stay up there.
[16:55] <mc-> I think fnoble is nearly ready to make some zps.
[16:57] <jiffe88> zp?
[16:57] <mc-> I've got some solar panels to save the weight of the batt
[16:57] <mc-> zero pressure
[16:57] <jiffe88> ah
[16:57] <ShellEvil> Weight of bats isn't really an issue even for several days. Especially if you pulse the beacon.
[16:58] <jcoxon> mc-, i think they have plans for their zp balloons
[16:58] <mc-> maybe, a small zp wouldn't take long to build if it's a simple shape.
[16:59] <mc-> I haven't worked out the battery size, but my current design only weighs 20g (without batt)
[16:59] <mc-> GPS+PIC+transmitter
[17:00] <ShellEvil> mc-: what's it draw? 40mA@3.3V?
[17:00] <mc-> GPS uses the most power, though I only switch it on when it's needed
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[17:00] <mc-> GPS is 50mA
[17:01] <ShellEvil> average?
[17:01] <ShellEvil> 20mA@3.3 if you're turning the GPS off?
[17:01] <mc-> tx is 200mA (I think)
[17:01] <ShellEvil> ah
[17:02] <jcoxon> mc-, what protocol would it transmit?
[17:02] <mc-> GPS could average 10mA (on 1 min every 5mins)
[17:02] <mc-> I'm thinking morse, to have maximum range
[17:02] <mc-> and then it can be in a quiet part of the band.
[17:03] <ShellEvil> mc-: ideally you want to have a dual frequency output
[17:03] <ShellEvil> mc-: so you can get interfered with on one.
[17:03] <mc-> would be nice, could be done by a cap to shift the frequency
[17:03] <ShellEvil> I was going for a more advanced design.
[17:04] <ShellEvil> Locking to the GPS PPM output to hit +-10Hz or so.
[17:04] <ShellEvil> That gets a lot more complex though.
[17:04] <mc-> I'm trying to keep it cheap, so I can afford to lose several payloads
[17:04] <ShellEvil> I wonder about zinc-air at altitude.
[17:05] <ShellEvil> Morse also isn't the best
[17:05] <mc-> no, but it's cheap and cheerful
[17:06] <mc-> transmit slow so people can decode by looking at a spectrogram
[17:06] <jcoxon> i'm always amazed at how rubbish computers are at decoding morse
[17:07] <ShellEvil> There is a text-over-radio protocol that name I'm blanking on.
[17:07] <ShellEvil> phase shift keying of a carrier.
[17:07] <mc-> PSK31
[17:07] <ShellEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSK31
[17:08] <mc-> yes, that could work, makes the tx slightly more complex.
[17:08] <ShellEvil> what are you using for frequency?
[17:08] <mc-> 10.1MHz
[17:08] <ShellEvil> Oh.
[17:08] <mc-> since I found a design for that
[17:09] <ShellEvil> How are you stabilising?
[17:09] <mc-> was thinking of trying to add a heater onto the crystal
[17:09] <mc-> so it doesn't drift too far.
[17:10] Nick change: edmoore|away -> edmoore
[17:11] <edmoore> 10.1Mhz is so low...
[17:11] <edmoore> that it could be microcontrollerable SDR
[17:11] <mc-> yes, good propagation
[17:12] <edmoore> just need a fast DAC
[17:12] <mc-> got several SDR boards for 10MHz band
[17:12] <ShellEvil> edmoore: stupid
[17:12] <ShellEvil> edmoore: there are _lots_ of nice DDS chips in that range
[17:12] <ShellEvil> edmoore: you don't bit-bang it
[17:12] <mc-> careful, edmoore isn't stupid..
[17:13] <ShellEvil> I mean bit banging is stupid
[17:13] <ShellEvil> and will use _lots_ of power
[17:13] <ShellEvil> What was that chip...
[17:14] <mc-> got a couple of DDS boards using a AD chip
[17:14] <ShellEvil> yeah - it was AD something
[17:14] <edmoore> fair do's - is the phase easily controllable?
[17:14] <ShellEvil> generally
[17:15] <ShellEvil> you have two modes (on many)
[17:15] <mc-> I've got crystals on that frequency, so easier to use a crystal receiver
[17:15] <ShellEvil> you have several 'tweak' pins
[17:15] <ShellEvil> that can do stuff - flip between two frequencies or phases
[17:15] <edmoore> so just kind of 'black box ' pins for fsk and psk
[17:16] <ShellEvil> pretty much.
[17:16] <edmoore> ok interesting
[17:16] <ShellEvil> And I2C or SPI that you set to tell it the multiplicator from the clock
[17:16] <edmoore> so we'd need a seperate clock that used the pps
[17:16] <ShellEvil> I've alas not found anything nice to do that
[17:17] <edmoore> some kind of DIY pll
[17:18] <ShellEvil> At best it looked like you'd need to do some sort of PLL partially in software.
[17:18] <mc-> there's some designs on the net that use the 1PPS to stablize a 10MHz crystal
[17:18] <ShellEvil> mc-: yes - tons
[17:18] <edmoore> though I confess I have no idea if PLLs of the order to 10^7 are possible
[17:18] <mc-> it used a pic
[17:18] <ShellEvil> mc-: now get one that's cheap and small and light and simple
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[17:18] <mc-> + a little logic. It was cheap, but wasn't low power consumption
[17:18] <edmoore> ShellEvil: that's what i was thinking
[17:19] <edmoore> get a 20mhz avr
[17:19] <edmoore> bit bang 10mhz. and have no time left over to actually do anything. ignore that
[17:20] <mc-> can tweak a 10MHz xstal by a varactor diode on 1 side
[17:20] <ShellEvil> http://www.analog.com/en/rfif-components/direct-digital-synthesis-dds/AD9833/products/product.html
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[17:20] <ShellEvil> For example
[17:20] <ShellEvil> # 0 MHz to 12.5 MHz Output Frequency Range
[17:20] <ShellEvil> # 28-Bit Resolution (0.1 Hz @ 25 MHz Ref Clock)
[17:20] <edmoore> that looks ideal
[17:21] <ShellEvil> Of course, you're then left to work out how to calibrate the ref clock.
[17:21] <ShellEvil> Ideally something that says 'X cycles of ad9833 output happened between last two PPS outputs from GPS'.
[17:21] <ShellEvil> And you then simply reprogram the A
[17:21] <ShellEvil> D thingy 100Hz down
[17:21] <ShellEvil> or whatever
[17:21] <ShellEvil> to make up for the drift
[17:22] <edmoore> yeah, just trying to think about the method of feedback
[17:23] <edmoore> maybe a counter that is reset by the pps
[17:23] <ShellEvil> Hmm.
[17:23] <edmoore> but whose max vlaue you can read postumously
[17:24] <ShellEvil> Actually...
[17:24] <ShellEvil> I went at this problem before and discarded some solutions as they won't work for me.
[17:24] <ShellEvil> But I was looking for 200MHz or so top-end.
[17:24] <edmoore> or shift register the state of the o/p also on reset
[17:25] <ShellEvil> There are a number of counters with 8 bit outputs and cs_ pins
[17:25] <edmoore> just need 'hardware' that's going to be a bit faster than microcontroller and interrupts i think
[17:26] <ShellEvil> So you have maybe 3 of these, and enable the outputs in series to read out the frozen value while they keep counting
[17:27] <edmoore> yeah
[17:28] <edmoore> right, need to get some fish and chips
[17:28] <edmoore> bbl
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[17:34] <ShellEvil> e
[17:34] <ShellEvil> eshop.engineering.uiowa.edu/NI/pdfs/00/91/DS009167.pdf
[17:34] <ShellEvil> 74590 - 8 bit down-counter, with a registered output.
[17:35] <ShellEvil> you trigger the 'clock into register' on PPS
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[17:35] <edmoore> back briefly. awaiting text from fish and chips date
[17:39] <ShellEvil> 74590 - 8 bit down-counter, with a registered output.
[17:39] <ShellEvil> you trigger the 'clock into register' on PPS
[17:40] <edmoore> perfect
[17:40] <ShellEvil> It may need the clock qualified with a flipflop otherwise you'd get races.
[17:40] <edmoore> will breakout the pps in badger 2
[17:41] <ShellEvil> But that'd be a flipflop, 3 of these (or two if you're feeling hacky), 8 inputs, 2/3 outputs
[17:41] <ShellEvil> the AD frequency synth chip
[17:41] <ShellEvil> And the PIC, GPS
[17:41] <ShellEvil> PIC/AVR
[17:41] <edmoore> rising edge hold?
[17:41] <edmoore> sorry, reset/store
[17:41] <ShellEvil> I don't recall.
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[17:42] <ShellEvil> but you have to qualify the PPS output with the clock input to the counters, otherwise you may get race conditions.
[17:43] <edmoore> and how to tweak the crystal freq?
[17:43] <ShellEvil> You don't.
[17:43] <ShellEvil> You leave it alone.
[17:44] <ShellEvil> You use the PPS output to read the crystal frequency.
[17:44] <ShellEvil> Then you recalibrate the AD chip to the right frequency multiplier.
[17:45] <edmoore> oh sugar, it's 28 bits
[17:45] <edmoore> so that's a resolution of...
[17:45] <edmoore> 0.04hz
[17:45] <edmoore> that should do
[17:45] <edmoore> just
[17:46] <edmoore> ok, easy peasy
[17:46] <edmoore> now need to read a book on rf amplification
[17:46] <edmoore> and we're there
[17:46] <ShellEvil> And filtering.
[17:46] <ShellEvil> It needs some filtering on the output.
[17:46] <edmoore> was hoping it'd be in the same book
[17:46] <edmoore> but yes, I reckon you could upset a few people with unfiltered 5W radios
[17:48] <edmoore> a big wheel antenna would be rather unruly for this size
[17:48] <edmoore> oh well, worth some thought
[17:48] <edmoore> right, now actually going
[17:48] <edmoore> bbl
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[18:52] <robert1971> natrium: I sorted it all out in the end. Mainly by looking at the css from version 2
[18:53] <robert1971> natrium: There seems to be a problem with the admin delete function in IE works fine in firefox. You may have fixed this.
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[18:54] <edmoore> ello toutes
[18:54] <edmoore> robert1971: icarus has been for a drive?
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[19:05] <edmoore> hi G8KHW
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[19:12] <G8KHW> hi edmoore
[19:14] <G8KHW> grrrrrrrrrr I spent most of the day de-bugging a program - when the actual problem was kubuntu Amarok - it seems to clip the beginning or end of short .wavs
[19:14] <G8KHW> run em on windows - no problem
[19:15] <edmoore> sstv realted?
[19:16] <G8KHW> yeah sort of - its a AX25 packet equivelent - takes text on the commend line and generates the packet wav file - either sound or pulse shape
[19:17] <G8KHW> which is then played to air
[19:19] <G8KHW> next up is a pulse shape equivelent of sstvtx
[19:19] <G8KHW> that should allow sstv to be sent via SSB
[19:19] <edmoore> oh cool
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[19:19] <G8KHW> which should give a much longer range
[19:20] <fuzzylugnuts> Hey folks.
[19:21] <fuzzylugnuts> anyone here from the UT program?
[19:22] <natrium> robert1971, aah, damn IE
[19:22] <natrium> fuzzylugnuts, university of toronto?
[19:23] <fuzzylugnuts> natrium: University of TN. evidently they have 27 launches under their belt and are currently trying for trans-atlantic
[19:23] <natrium> they are launching now?
[19:23] <fuzzylugnuts> I think so
[19:24] <fuzzylugnuts> they didn't have dates up
[19:24] <natrium> hmm, url?
[19:24] <fuzzylugnuts> just that they pulled wiki access because its kind of a competition
[19:24] <natrium> haha
[19:24] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.spiritofknoxville.com/
[19:24] <fuzzylugnuts> so much for open source
[19:25] <natrium> latest update was 73 days ago
[19:25] <natrium> i don't see anything recent
[19:25] <fuzzylugnuts> : (
[19:26] <fuzzylugnuts> it looks like they make their own balloons too
[19:27] <fuzzylugnuts> I think fnoble was doing that too.
[19:28] <edmoore> fuzzylugnuts: their wiki has been down most of this year
[19:28] <edmoore> they tried in april
[19:28] <edmoore> fell short of land
[19:29] <natrium> they have no timestamps on their blog...
[19:29] <edmoore> but the season is over and they never did put the wiki back up
[19:29] <fuzzylugnuts> lammmmme
[19:29] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm trying to get ahold of them
[19:29] <fuzzylugnuts> I emailed a few
[19:29] <edmoore> they've been around for a while though
[19:29] <fuzzylugnuts> never got a response
[19:29] <fuzzylugnuts> any of them show up in here?
[19:29] <natrium> no, they had #SNOX channel on oasis
[19:29] <edmoore> The ZP machine is going reasonably well
[19:30] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:30] <fuzzylugnuts> natrium: oasis?
[19:30] <edmoore> a lot of our focus now will be getting up to speed flying them
[19:31] <natrium> oasis.liveharmony.org
[19:31] <fuzzylugnuts> thanks
[19:31] <natrium> but they only use it for launches
[19:31] <natrium> only i am there atm...
[19:31] <fuzzylugnuts> oh
[19:32] <fuzzylugnuts> I'll join just in case
[19:32] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm like, 30m from them.
[19:32] <natrium> hehe
[19:32] <fuzzylugnuts> natrium: where are you?
[19:32] <natrium> #SNOX
[19:32] <natrium> oh
[19:32] <edmoore> sign up for thier newsletter on spiritofknoxville.com
[19:32] <natrium> you mean, physically
[19:32] <fuzzylugnuts> yah
[19:32] <fuzzylugnuts> : )
[19:32] <natrium> kitchener, ontario
[19:32] <fuzzylugnuts> whats your QTH
[19:32] <edmoore> the 'season' is sort of augusty onwards
[19:32] <edmoore> when the jet stream is at its fastest
[19:32] Action: natrium steals fuzzylugnuts' nose
[19:33] <fuzzylugnuts> D:
[19:33] <edmoore> sorry, october onwards
[19:33] <natrium> fuzzylugnuts, i don't have ham license
[19:33] <fuzzylugnuts> I guess that's related to the jet stream?
[19:33] <fuzzylugnuts> aww, ok
[19:34] <natrium> edmoore, we should start working soon :)
[19:34] <edmoore> you ideally want to surf a massive swirl across the atlantic
[19:34] <edmoore> natrium: the topic seems to have re-emerged in the last 24 hrs
[19:34] <natrium> i will draw some system diagrams tomorrow, if you don't mind
[19:34] <edmoore> of course not!
[19:35] <natrium> alright
[19:35] <edmoore> I think it'd be a hell of a test for our ZPs
[19:35] <natrium> for sure
[19:35] <natrium> :)
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[19:35] <fuzzylugnuts> ZP?
[19:35] <edmoore> zero pressure balloons
[19:35] <natrium> edmoore, even if snox does it earlier, we will still have extra features :P
[19:35] <natrium> like lieve pictures
[19:35] <natrium> *live
[19:35] <edmoore> but we have a pretty tight roadmap now to the rockoon, so it depends
[19:36] <edmoore> natrium: over iridium?
[19:36] <natrium> yep
[19:36] <edmoore> cool
[19:36] <natrium> i got 500 minutes to waste
[19:36] <edmoore> see, that means we could uplink too
[19:36] <natrium> indeed
[19:36] <edmoore> but I kinda like the idea of complete autonomy
[19:36] <fuzzylugnuts> cool beans.
[19:36] <edmoore> maybe have a cutdown over-ride
[19:37] <natrium> but, it would still be nice to play around with short wave
[19:37] <edmoore> well, was talking about 10Mhz earlier
[19:37] <natrium> mc- said he was working on a transmitter?
[19:37] <edmoore> using a ddc
[19:37] <edmoore> i belive so
[19:37] <edmoore> not sure what it entails
[19:38] <natrium> edmoore, do you think it's possible to make the whole thing water proof?
[19:38] <natrium> and floaty :)
[19:38] <edmoore> it would b fun to see where it turns up
[19:38] <edmoore> if it doesn't make it out alive
[19:39] <edmoore> waterproof certainly
[19:39] <edmoore> badger could probably be potted
[19:39] <fuzzylugnuts> lots of kapton tape.
[19:39] <edmoore> or actually just covered in expanding foam
[19:39] <natrium> ok
[19:39] <edmoore> polyurethana foam, like they make the flying wings out of
[19:39] <natrium> would be nice to have a jtag chain too
[19:40] <natrium> so that we can reprogram microcontrollers on the fly :)
[19:40] <edmoore> indeed :)
[19:40] <edmoore> was thinking of the SD card bootlaoder for that actually
[19:40] <edmoore> have the arm download from radio and put on the sd card, then reset itself and boot the new firmware
[19:41] <edmoore> or maybe have a supervisor micro do all that incase it goes tits up
[19:41] <akawaka> that seems sensible
[19:41] <akawaka> HF radio is pretty cool for balloons
[19:41] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah
[19:41] <akawaka> its a shame you guys are so restricted in the UK
[19:41] Nick change: Ei5GTB_ -> EI5GTB
[19:42] <fuzzylugnuts> akawaka: Did you see the AT-3B QRP transmitter?
[19:42] <akawaka> also HF stuff is a lot easier to build than the higher frequency stuff
[19:42] <akawaka> fuzzylugnuts: no?
[19:42] <natrium> i am off for a while, sorry
[19:42] <akawaka> :(((
[19:44] <fuzzylugnuts> http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/4758?page=2
[19:44] <fuzzylugnuts> its an HF transceiver
[19:44] <fuzzylugnuts> that does digital modes.
[19:45] <fuzzylugnuts> and fits in an altoids can
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> 200 euro or so for a satellite modem.
[19:45] <edmoore> akawaka: yeah. DDS provides 10MHz radio, GPS PPS regulates it
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> maybe another 50 for a SIM
[19:45] <akawaka> fuzzylugnuts: looks impressive
[19:45] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah, puts out a few watts
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> The nice thing about a DDS stabilised by GPS is that there is no tuning - it doesn't drift appreciably.
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> (if done right)
[19:47] <edmoore> SNOX guys had their 10mhz kit only seem to be pickupable during the daylight hours
[19:47] <akawaka> what does the gps do?
[19:47] <akawaka> provide timing
[19:48] <edmoore> I assumed it was have some ions hitting the ionosphere to bounce signals off
[19:48] <akawaka> http://web.mit.edu/bgelb/www/balloon/hfbeacon/
[19:48] <akawaka> i built that one
[19:48] <edmoore> akawaka: yeah. It's 1HZ fixed rather the 1Hz =/- crystal temp
[19:48] <fuzzylugnuts> akawaka: Yeah, those oscillators are perfect for that
[19:49] <akawaka> i didn't get a chance to do much testing though cos i blew it up
[19:49] <fuzzylugnuts> akawaka: what could you modulate it with? Or was it just CW
[19:49] <fuzzylugnuts> o_O
[19:49] <akawaka> fuzzylugnuts: just cw
[19:49] <fuzzylugnuts> *nod*
[19:49] <fuzzylugnuts> Cool though
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[19:50] <akawaka> its a class e amp, so i don't think you can do ssb/am with it
[19:50] <akawaka> problem with hf is just the size of the antennas
[19:51] <akawaka> little difficult to do real testing in my apartment
[19:51] <fuzzylugnuts> its not bad at all when the balloon is in the air
[19:51] <akawaka> yeah
[19:52] <akawaka> though a little difficult if you want a radio in a chase car
[19:52] <fuzzylugnuts> I have an HF on the cartop
[19:52] <akawaka> but there are those hamstick antennas that are apparently pretty good for a a narrow band
[19:52] <akawaka> fuzzylugnuts: what kind?
[19:52] <fuzzylugnuts> I use the ATAS-120A
[19:52] <fuzzylugnuts> autotuning, 40m-70cm
[19:53] <akawaka> wow, thats cool
[19:54] <edmoore> if we had a go at this, fergus conveniently lives on the west coast looking over the atlantic
[19:54] <fuzzylugnuts> haha
[19:54] <fuzzylugnuts> cool
[19:54] <fuzzylugnuts> I'll catch it
[19:54] <fuzzylugnuts> : )
[19:54] <edmoore> so we'd special-build a fairly large 30m antenna
[19:54] <akawaka> do the winds work going west?
[19:54] <edmoore> yep
[19:54] <edmoore> no they go east
[19:54] <edmoore> we'd fly west
[19:55] <edmoore> and then fly back
[19:55] <edmoore> or fedex it to natrium
[19:55] <akawaka> i see
[19:55] <fuzzylugnuts> it sounds really challanging
[19:56] <edmoore> yes I think it certainly would be
[19:56] <fuzzylugnuts> not something I would throw thousands into though : (
[19:56] <edmoore> we'd probably do things a bit differently to snox
[19:57] <fuzzylugnuts> of course
[19:57] <edmoore> like go for a much higher ballast mass fraction
[19:57] <fuzzylugnuts> did they account for cooling down during the night?
[19:57] <edmoore> in what way account for it?
[19:57] <akawaka> use batteries as ballast
[19:58] <fuzzylugnuts> edmoore: so it doesn't descend out of the jet stream
[19:58] <fuzzylugnuts> I assume there is a range of altitude needed to stay in it
[19:58] <edmoore> oh yes
[19:58] <edmoore> well, they certainly knew it would descend at night
[19:58] <edmoore> and it did
[19:59] <akawaka> but it never really climbed the next day, right?
[19:59] <edmoore> so they ballasted to try and keep it there
[19:59] <edmoore> oh it did
[19:59] <fuzzylugnuts> overshot?
[20:00] <edmoore> i think it might have done a bit
[20:00] <edmoore> but quite difficult to tune as a control system
[20:00] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[20:00] <akawaka> i wonder if having direct control over it would have helped
[20:01] <edmoore> quite probably
[20:01] <edmoore> but not so fun
[20:01] <edmoore> i would up the ballast mass fraction and just try and keep it above 20,000ft come-what-may
[20:01] <edmoore> and if it rose above the js during the day a bit, so be it
[20:01] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[20:02] <fuzzylugnuts> I rather it higher than lower
[20:02] <edmoore> yeah
[20:02] <edmoore> i know snox sometimes had it on the water during the night
[20:02] <fuzzylugnuts> I wonder how much helium would diffuse through the plastic
[20:02] <fuzzylugnuts> wow
[20:02] <fuzzylugnuts> that is awesome
[20:02] <edmoore> actually it would be better to keep it lower rather than higher in that the winds are better
[20:02] <edmoore> hrm
[20:02] <edmoore> I'd make the initial fill a bit above the js anyway
[20:03] <edmoore> and do it at night
[20:03] <fuzzylugnuts> hawt.
[20:03] <fuzzylugnuts> I just want to piggyback my payloads on the SNOX group to test them before I launch them myself.
[20:04] <akawaka> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080830.html
[20:04] <fuzzylugnuts> ?
[20:05] <edmoore> a live performance of rach 3
[20:05] <edmoore> happy ed
[20:05] <edmoore> yes, always like that photo
[20:06] <edmoore> sort of playes with your preconceptions about scale and orbits
[20:06] <fuzzylugnuts> was that taken by a balloon?
[20:08] <edmoore> the ISS I think
[20:08] <fuzzylugnuts> ISS?
[20:08] <edmoore> no no, of course not
[20:08] <edmoore> that was this one
[20:08] <fuzzylugnuts> oh
[20:08] <edmoore> international space station
[20:08] <fuzzylugnuts> oooh ok
[20:08] <fuzzylugnuts> wow
[20:09] <edmoore> http://wikitravel.org/en/Image:Himalayas_from_ISS.jpg
[20:09] <edmoore> that was the ISS one
[20:09] <edmoore> makes more sense
[20:09] <fuzzylugnuts> is that taken with 100mm?
[20:10] <fuzzylugnuts> or is that way zoomed in
[20:11] <edmoore> perspective looks compressed
[20:11] <edmoore> suggesting higher focal length
[20:11] <akawaka> those mountains are tiny
[20:13] <edmoore> no i am thinking of another photo
[20:13] <edmoore> not any of the above
[20:13] <fuzzylugnuts> "THey look like ants from up here"...."They -ARE- ants...."
[20:14] <edmoore> http://lh3.ggpht.com/_7H7w0PclLI4/RzIZVjrGpQI/AAAAAAAAALw/n_Vzteon1Bg/himalaya_iss1_big.jpg
[20:14] <edmoore> that was from ISS
[20:14] <fuzzylugnuts> oh
[20:14] <fuzzylugnuts> wow.
[20:14] <fuzzylugnuts> again
[20:17] <edmoore> launching a balloon from Everest base camp seems like a really good thing to do
[20:17] <fuzzylugnuts> I volunteer for that
[20:18] <edmoore> hetting it back would be hard
[20:18] <edmoore> what if it landed on the summit?
[20:19] <edmoore> or, infact, anywhere
[20:19] <fuzzylugnuts> someone else could ahndle that : P
[20:19] <fuzzylugnuts> ÿakawaka: what kind of range did you get on that HF transmitter?
[20:20] <akawaka> don't know, i damaged it before i got a chance to do full testing
[20:20] <fuzzylugnuts> oh, ok
[20:20] <akawaka> hopefully work will calm down in a week or so and i can rebuild it
[20:20] <fuzzylugnuts> cool
[20:20] <fuzzylugnuts> I was thinking of building something similar, if that qrp transcievr was too much of a pain
[20:22] <akawaka> you can make some really simple qrp transmitters
[20:22] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah
[20:22] <akawaka> i liked the mit one though cos i didn't have to hand wind anything
[20:23] <fuzzylugnuts> *nod*
[20:27] <akawaka> given that i've never built anything like that before i don't need those kinds of variables
[20:28] <fuzzylugnuts> Yeah
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[20:32] <fuzzylugnuts> man. I wish I knew more about coding for the atmegas
[20:32] <fuzzylugnuts> or pics or anything
[20:35] <edmoore> fuzzylugnuts: give it a go
[20:35] <edmoore> you'd be pleasently supried
[20:35] <edmoore> they're loads of fun to program for
[20:36] <edmoore> when you can put all your ram bytes on a pice of paper and plan what's going to each address
[20:36] <fuzzylugnuts> edmoore: I tried, with the atmega128, got an eval board and ISP and all that stuff. It looked pretty good, but I really wish I could go to a class to learn this kind of thing
[20:36] <edmoore> that is a nice thing
[20:36] <edmoore> avrfreaks.net
[20:36] <edmoore> academy
[20:36] <edmoore> tutorials by 'acbminiuser'
[20:37] <edmoore> go through them chronologically
[20:37] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah yeah, I know
[20:37] <edmoore> then have a micro epiphany
[20:38] <fuzzylugnuts> I messed around with a few tutorials last year
[20:38] <fuzzylugnuts> it went Ok, Though the gumstix has been my favorite thing lately.
[20:39] <fuzzylugnuts> just never got back to it after I moved.
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[20:47] <akawaka> i really enjoy the limitations of microcontroller programming
[20:49] <edmoore> me too
[20:49] <edmoore> and then feel a bit ill and dirty
[20:49] <edmoore> when I go back to c++
[20:49] <edmoore> and use stringstreams
[20:49] <edmoore> or maps
[20:49] <edmoore> or whatever
[20:49] <akawaka> c++ is dirty
[20:50] <akawaka> i like that my current codebase avoid mosts c++-isms
[20:50] <edmoore> i normally do
[20:50] <edmoore> but that's because I think in C
[20:50] <fuzzylugnuts> thats all I'm familiar with
[20:50] <edmoore> but right now I'm thinking in beer
[20:50] <edmoore> so I must dash
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[20:50] <fuzzylugnuts> laters
[20:50] <fuzzylugnuts> I need some gin.
[21:19] <fuzzylugnuts> http://web.mit.edu/bgelb/www/balloon/hfbeacon/
[21:20] <fuzzylugnuts> on that page, they mention "CW has been heavily corrupted for the entire duration, but Hell has been very clea"
[21:21] <fuzzylugnuts> are they talking about hellschriber?
[21:22] <fuzzylugnuts> oh nevermind
[21:22] <fuzzylugnuts> they explain below.
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[21:56] <robert1971> natrium: Up 4 being in on a transatlantic crossing. Still to get my wings though
[21:57] <fuzzylugnuts> anyone done it yet?
[21:58] <robert1971> Got version 1 to where your at with version 2 going to move it on over the next couple of weeks to do temp X 3, humidity and baro for the payload. Will expand the db a little
[21:58] <robert1971> Teh Spirit of knoxville has had a go
[21:58] <fuzzylugnuts> yeah, but I mean actual sucess
[21:59] <fuzzylugnuts> and i really need to get in contact with them
[21:59] <fuzzylugnuts> I live about 30min from knoxville.
[21:59] <robert1971> guys i'm about dead on my feet at the moment so I'm going to have an early one tonight
[21:59] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[21:59] <fuzzylugnuts> goodnight
[22:00] <robert1971> C U 6 am GMT when my kids wake up
[22:00] <robert1971> ttfn
[22:00] <robert1971> \quit
[22:00] <akawaka> almost!
[22:00] <robert1971> see thats how tired I am
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[22:00] <akawaka> :)
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[22:10] <fuzzylugnuts> *buys the norcal hf power/swr meter and dummy load*
[22:11] <gordonjcp> oo
[22:11] <gordonjcp> I could do with a SWR meter
[22:12] <fuzzylugnuts> its only about 70 bucks
[22:12] <fuzzylugnuts> I figure it would be nice to have if I'm going to mess with HF balloon transmitters.
[22:18] <gordonjcp> yup
[22:18] <gordonjcp> I could do with something for setting up my Yagis properly
[22:18] <gordonjcp> even a shot of a UHF antenna analyser would be good
[22:18] <gordonjcp> tell you what, it's *sooo* quiet up here - hardly any SCADA chatter
[22:19] <gordonjcp> I was able to hear (but not receive, on an FM rig) voice traffic on FO-29 on a pass earlier
[22:21] <fuzzylugnuts> SCADA... as in the remote control system?
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[22:39] <G8KHW> edmoore: did you have any problems getting CHDK to autoload?
[22:39] <edmoore> G8KHW: now that i'm aware of
[22:39] <edmoore> but fergus loaded it on so he's the man to ask
[22:40] <G8KHW> ok - I'll ask nexxt time I see him - it just hangs for me
[22:54] <akawaka> G8KHW: what kind of card?
[22:55] <G8KHW> I tried both a 256M and 1G SD
[22:56] <akawaka> fat16?
[22:56] <G8KHW> yep
[22:56] <akawaka> write protected?
[22:57] <G8KHW> yep
[22:57] <akawaka> bootable?
[22:57] <G8KHW> yep - its got all 3 files on it
[22:57] <akawaka> camera in playback mode?
[22:58] <G8KHW> used the card trick stuff and followeed the instructions
[22:59] <G8KHW> I guess? - I just inserted the card (wr prot on)
[23:01] <akawaka> some cameras seem to have problems autoloading in any mode other than playback
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[23:01] Nick change: Laurenceb|away -> Laurenceb_
[23:02] <G8KHW> ah - that seems to be it - started it by press the playback button rather than the power switch
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[23:03] <G8KHW> thanks
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[23:04] <Laurenceb_> G8KHW: where do you get your coax?
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[23:06] <Laurenceb_> I'm looking for some RG174 I think... what do you use?
[23:07] <G8KHW> yeah thats one of them - be careful not all RG174 is RG174
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> What freq for?
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> IIRC rapid were cheap for some coax last I looked.
[23:08] <G8KHW> typically 434MHz - but its OK for short runs for 1.5G or so
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> coax designed for satellite installs tends to be OK for most stuff.
[23:08] <Laurenceb_> 434
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[23:08] <Laurenceb_> I just ordered a ton of stuff from rapid
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> Not too critical then. 'anything' will work for short runs.
[23:08] <Laurenceb_> but you had to buy in huge lenghts
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[23:09] <Laurenceb_> so I only got an SMA connector for RG174
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> Building a yagi or something?
[23:10] <G8KHW> RG174 is the solid polythene stuff - the PTFE/silver plated wire stuff is much easier to use IMO
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> For 434MHz - unless there are really long runs involved, or local signal interference, almost anything will work.
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> Unless it's needed to be flexible too
[23:12] <Laurenceb_> what was the transparent stuff you used for antennas?
[23:13] <G8KHW> thats the PTFE one - easy to solder - you cant melt the PTFE
[23:15] <Laurenceb_> where do you get it from?
[23:16] <G8KHW> its difficult to get - I think I got the last lot at a radio rally
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: IIRC there is a maplin store near you
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> They sell it by the m.
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> Maybe.
[23:17] <Laurenceb_> I havent seen it
[23:17] <Laurenceb_> but yes theres maplin in derby
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> Maybe they've stopped doing that.
[23:17] <G8KHW> like I said its not easy to come by
[23:18] <G8KHW> or rather its not easy to come by in small quantities
[23:19] <Laurenceb_> how much do you have? could you spare me some?
[23:20] <G8KHW> I dont know how much I have left - I'll check later
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> thankx
[23:21] <G8KHW> its about £100 for a 100m reel
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> things like that are annoying
[23:23] <Laurenceb_> brb
[23:24] <G8KHW> night guys
[23:24] G8KHW (n=andy@217.47.75.27) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[23:31] <fuzzylugnuts> wheee. strings in C.
[23:40] edmoore (n=edmoore@37.124-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) left irc:
[23:41] borism (n=boris@195-50-201-237-dsl.krw.estpak.ee) joined #highaltitude.
[00:00] --- Sun Aug 31 2008