highaltitude.log.20080827

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[00:46] <robert1971> Bed time
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[00:48] <akawaka> anymore haps-1 data posted?
[00:48] <akawaka> i only saw that one panorama
[01:06] <Laurenceb> back
[01:06] <Laurenceb> hmf
[01:06] <Laurenceb> it would be so nice to have lipos inside the enclosure with a charging jack
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[01:07] <fuzzylugnuts> Hey
[01:07] <fuzzylugnuts> http://68.34.212.42/scrap/shinee.jpg
[01:07] <fuzzylugnuts> foam paneling for the capsule : 3
[01:09] <fnoble> kapton?
[01:09] <fnoble> nice
[01:10] <Laurenceb> neat
[01:10] <Laurenceb> kapton always looks cool
[01:11] <fuzzylugnuts> its a gold emergency blanket attached by spray adhesive
[01:11] <fuzzylugnuts> I think its mylar
[01:11] <fuzzylugnuts> it feels like it
[01:12] <akawaka> cool:)
[01:12] <fuzzylugnuts> cutting it is the biggest pain I've come across
[01:13] <fuzzylugnuts> geting the edges perfect is hard
[01:13] <fuzzylugnuts> I was thinking about making some sort of nichrome cutter
[01:13] <fuzzylugnuts> instead of a soldering iron
[01:23] <fuzzylugnuts> how did the launch gow
[01:23] <fuzzylugnuts> was that this past weekend?
[01:35] <fnoble> it was on sunday
[01:36] <fuzzylugnuts> how'd it go?
[01:36] <fnoble> there wasa problem with the main radio
[01:36] <fnoble> but managed to triangulate it off the secondary beacon and found it in the end
[01:36] <fnoble> took a long time
[01:36] <fuzzylugnuts> oh wow, good
[01:37] <fnoble> yeah, dougs photo system took the most amazing photos ive ever seen
[01:37] <fuzzylugnuts> cool : ) got a link?
[01:37] <fnoble> i dont know the link unfortunately
[01:37] <fuzzylugnuts> ;_;
[01:37] <fuzzylugnuts> ok
[01:37] <fnoble> try searching the umsf forums for haps-1?
[01:38] <soneil> http://www.nivnac.co.uk/blog1.php/2008/08/26/haps-1-360-degree-panorama-2nd-version (there's a link just before the post starts to the 1st version too)
[01:38] <fnoble> or ask jcoxon when hes around as it was his payload
[01:38] <fnoble> i was just tagging along :)
[01:41] <fuzzylugnuts> o_O
[01:41] <fuzzylugnuts> whoa
[01:42] <fuzzylugnuts> that is some crazy damn photo work
[01:42] <fnoble> the mosaic is by the same guy who puts together the mars ones
[01:43] <fuzzylugnuts> that is so cool
[01:43] <fuzzylugnuts> it looks like the balloon went into space
[01:44] <fuzzylugnuts> thats awesome, my old group's head was a photography professor, he's going to piss himself over those pics.
[01:44] <fnoble> yeah
[01:44] <fnoble> we went and bought one of the same cameras the day after :)
[01:45] <fnoble> it used a canon poweshot with the chdk firmware
[01:45] <fnoble> chdk was setup with a script to take photos and videos at certain intervals so the camera system was self contained
[01:46] <fnoble> no link to the flight computer
[01:46] <fnoble> and the camera was unmodified
[01:48] <fuzzylugnuts> nifty : )
[01:48] <fuzzylugnuts> *looks up chdk*
[01:50] <fuzzylugnuts> whoa
[01:50] <fuzzylugnuts> this is cool
[02:01] <fnoble> night all
[02:01] Nick change: fnoble -> fnoble|zzz
[02:02] <fuzzylugnuts> 'night
[02:02] <fuzzylugnuts> I'm off too actually
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[03:22] <ball> hello willie
[03:22] <willie> hello
[03:23] <willie> whats new in getting high?
[03:24] Action: willie looks at the topic and goes to read
[03:26] <natrium42> ?
[03:27] <natrium42> :P
[03:38] Action: ball staggers around a bit
[03:52] Action: natrium42 kicks ball
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[07:16] <SpikeUK> .
[07:19] <natrium> ,
[07:49] <SpikeUK> Morning!
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[08:11] <SpikeUK> edmoore - morning!
[08:14] <edmoore> morning
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[08:27] <edmoore> jcoxon: does chdk give you manual control?
[08:27] <edmoore> on the exposure settings
[08:30] <akawaka> it does on my sd400
[08:31] <edmoore> and does it not give you manual control by default?
[08:31] <edmoore> i.e without chdk
[08:31] <akawaka> don't recall
[08:31] <akawaka> it probably does
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[08:55] <jcoxon> morning ed
[08:55] <jcoxon> oh he's gone
[08:58] <jcoxon> fnoble|zzz, ping
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[09:05] <Laurenceb> hi ed
[09:05] <jcoxon> morning edmoore
[09:05] <edmoore> herro
[09:05] <Laurenceb> hi everyone in fact :P
[09:05] <edmoore> hi Laurenceb
[09:05] <jcoxon> sorry, i left my laptop on overnight to see if the gumstix would screw up
[09:05] <edmoore> jcoxon: did you get my message about chdk?
[09:05] <edmoore> did it?
[09:05] <jcoxon> still transmitting 12 hours later
[09:05] <edmoore> cool
[09:06] <Laurenceb> thanks for answering my servo question in my absense
[09:06] <jcoxon> edmoore, the cameras do have a manual mode
[09:06] <jcoxon> but i guess chdk allows you to script it
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[09:06] <edmoore> ok
[09:06] <edmoore> thinking about getting the right exposure for sunrise shots
[09:07] <jcoxon> could you do bracketing expsoure thingys
[09:07] <edmoore> actually, sstv would rock for that
[09:07] <edmoore> because we could check the exposure and adjust it with an uplink
[09:07] <jcoxon> wow
[09:07] <edmoore> Aye, probably would do bracketing
[09:22] <Laurenceb> hmmm if you do landing spot prediction in recerse integrating up from the desired landing spot the the prsent altitude and aim a glider at the lat/long it gives you, then you effectively use regions of low windspeed to get ahead so altitude regions of high windspeed dont blow you off target as badly
[09:22] <Laurenceb> *reverse
[09:22] <Laurenceb> in fact... it looks like the optimum way of steering :D
[09:26] <Laurenceb> you could use a modified for of the standard landing prediction algorythm during ascent, then remove layers of atmosphere from the integral as you descend
[09:26] <Laurenceb> s/for/form
[09:27] <Laurenceb> so its very efficient to do
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[09:42] <Laurenceb> edmoore: so you think 2 lipos may fry my servo?
[09:42] <edmoore> Laurenceb: I think it's possible
[09:42] <Laurenceb> yeah
[09:42] <Laurenceb> annoying
[09:42] <edmoore> but I have not huge amounts of experience with digital servos
[09:43] <edmoore> oh, does it do 180 degrees?
[09:43] <Laurenceb> that was another of my question :P
[09:43] <Laurenceb> I think it probably does, as thats standard?
[09:44] <Laurenceb> I've ordered a S3152 now anyway :-/
[09:47] <edmoore> do tell me
[09:47] <edmoore> most servos don't, a fair few digitals do
[09:47] <edmoore> if it does, I am buying one
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[10:03] <robert1971> edmoore: I got through 3 thermistors last night trying to make a probe. Ended up with soldering one to a bit of strip board and using that with a 30k divider. Certainly changed with temperture very quicky infact. Calibrating it is going to be a bastard and protecting it from knocks and bumps is going to be quite awkward too. Had a bit mor of a search and came up with a dallas DS1821 and a DS18S20 both of these look interesting though they limit
[10:04] <edmoore> what do they limit?
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[10:07] <robert1971> They provide temp as a 8 bit sequence using 1 wire Mode coms. The lowest value is at -55 1100 1001
[10:08] <robert1971> I'm not sure what happens when the temp drops below this, but I like the nice easy bit value for temp a bit like the voltage on LM35's
[10:09] <robert1971> edmoore: If you're interested http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds/DS1821.pdf
[10:10] <edmoore> if they go under I assume they'll just stick to where they were
[10:10] <edmoore> ie saturate at -55
[10:11] <Laurenceb> edmoore: I've got all ny analogue servos to do almost 180 degrees
[10:11] <edmoore> almost might be anough
[10:11] <edmoore> but ideally 180
[10:12] <Laurenceb> I ws talking to a guy in an rc plane shop and he said +-45 degrees is recommended
[10:12] <edmoore> need to be able tooh no wait
[10:12] <edmoore> gah
[10:12] <robert1971> I think that's corrrect, short of freezing it with some spray. May do that when I have got the bugger to communicate with the AVR
[10:12] <Laurenceb> as the performance drops off outside that range
[10:12] <edmoore> I need 360
[10:12] <Laurenceb> :P
[10:12] <Laurenceb> yeah 360 is a bit of a pain
[10:12] <edmoore> I'll just do it properly
[10:12] <edmoore> nvm
[10:12] <Laurenceb> winch servos are slooowww
[10:12] <Laurenceb> gears?
[10:12] <gordonjcp> uhm
[10:13] <edmoore> yeah
[10:13] <gordonjcp> why not gear the servo?
[10:13] <gordonjcp> heh
[10:13] <edmoore> well, I'll make a little worm-drive thing
[10:13] <gordonjcp> or a lever
[10:13] <Laurenceb> weight, faf, expense
[10:13] <gordonjcp> does it need to be a servo?
[10:13] <Laurenceb> levers take up too much space
[10:13] <edmoore> gearing is certainly an option
[10:13] <Laurenceb> gordonjcp: the price/performance ration is very good for servos
[10:13] <Laurenceb> *ratio
[10:17] <edmoore> might try some of those bioloid thingamies
[10:17] <edmoore> ax12s
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[10:30] <Laurenceb> do they take serial?
[10:31] <edmoore> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kntaSdgfAw&feature=related
[10:31] <edmoore> yeah
[10:39] <Laurenceb> I still want to use lipo cells, its just nicer
[10:40] <Laurenceb> but... if I use a to-220 v reg to get 6v for the servo, theres actually a risk of it overheating
[10:42] <Laurenceb> would this make a hot wire cutter? http://www.rapidonline.com/Educational-Products/Graphics-Art-Design/Materials/Nichrome-wire/73047/kw/nichrome
[10:42] <Laurenceb> I'm just wondering what the thermal resistance of a wire is...
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[10:56] <edmoore> Laurenceb: smps?
[10:57] <Laurenceb> yeah... but I'd have to build it all myself
[10:57] <Laurenceb> actually I could use a buck regulator
[11:04] <edmoore> I would have no qualms about using an analogue servo with 2 lipos, incidently
[11:04] <edmoore> Laurenceb: ^
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[11:04] <Laurenceb> hmmm
[11:04] <edmoore> I have run them up to 12 before
[11:04] <Laurenceb> any servo you'd recommend?
[11:05] <edmoore> they will smoke if you load them, but will probs be ok otherwise
[11:05] <Laurenceb> hehe
[11:05] <edmoore> some of the digital servos I tried for the walking robot actually melted at 6V
[11:05] <Laurenceb> ew
[11:05] <edmoore> because they're not built for sustained torque
[11:06] <Laurenceb> yeah, I think the most important things are ball bearings on output shaft and decent gears
[11:09] <Laurenceb> what sort of crimping tool do I need for molex?
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[11:19] <edmoore> Laurenceb: normal pliers work, but if you can spare some money, a proper molex crimper really is a very, very, very worthwhile buy
[11:19] <edmoore> saves you so much heartache
[11:19] <edmoore> and this is space-stuff, so a high quality crimp connection (with a dab of solder too) is worth it
[11:32] <Laurenceb> yeah
[11:32] <Laurenceb> I've always been using a little solder then long nosed pliers
[11:32] <Laurenceb> anyway I'd better get off to work, cya
[11:36] <SpikeUK> Crimp then solder is best.
[11:40] <SpikeUK> The basic rule is that you need a good mechanical joint first, then add the solder to fill any voids and keep moisture out
[11:41] <edmoore> agreed. The crimp also won't form properly if you have solid solder lumps in the way
[11:41] <edmoore> I normally do tin the wire first though
[11:44] <SpikeUK> edmoore - lightly tin the wire first. If you overdo it, the crimp will not work properly. The joint should be good without the solder
[11:49] <SpikeUK> Can you suggest a good terminal prog for Linux? I use RealTerm for Win but any not "to speed" on Linux
[11:51] <jcoxon> SpikeUK, kermit?
[11:53] <SpikeUK> jcoxon - Kermit? I used to use that 15 - 20 years ago! Is that the best we can do? ;-)
[11:53] <gordonjcp> gtkterm
[11:53] <jcoxon> terminals are terminals
[11:54] <gordonjcp> I don't use terminal programs, if I need a terminal I use my VT220
[11:54] <edmoore> who needs a GUI anyway?
[11:54] <edmoore> don't asnwer that
[11:54] <edmoore> I wonder if command-line pcb design is possible
[11:55] <SpikeUK> edmoore - scalpel?
[11:56] <edmoore> They pre-date me
[11:56] <SpikeUK> Flints ;-)
[11:56] <edmoore> but the draughtswoman at my job a few years back always regailed with stories of when she would do acetate and sclpels
[11:57] <gordonjcp> my Dad made up masks for little pressure sensors using huge sheets of black card and cut-up bits of paper
[11:57] <gordonjcp> photographed onto special black-and-white film
[11:58] <SpikeUK> Proper job! That takes me back!
[11:58] <edmoore> I've made some with a marker pen before on grease-proof paper
[11:58] <edmoore> but that was a bodge rather than a technologic necessity
[11:59] <edmoore> and at school we decided it was fashionable to sign our pcbs
[11:59] <gordonjcp> these were really cool, because the final masks were about the size of a frame of 35mm film
[11:59] <gordonjcp> so they could just expose through the film and it would work
[11:59] <edmoore> or draw a penis in a gap on someone's pcb mask. the maturity.
[12:09] <edmoore> Though silicon designing sometimes do they same, I understand
[12:10] <gordonjcp> my favourite story with that one is the artwork on the MicroVAX II CPU
[12:10] <gordonjcp> where it said in tiny Cyrillic writing, below the d|i|g|i|t|a|l logo
[12:11] <gordonjcp> "DIGITAL - for those who care enough to steal the best"
[12:12] <SpikeUK> LOL! Thanks gordonjcp!
[12:15] <gordonjcp> http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html
[12:20] <edmoore> ha
[12:20] <edmoore> trans-atlantic balloon corssing are still up for the taking, I note
[12:26] <edmoore> jcoxon: ping
[12:26] <jcoxon> pong
[12:28] <gordonjcp> hm
[12:28] <gordonjcp> you'd have to launch it from the US
[12:29] <gordonjcp> otherwise they'd think it was a bomb, and freak out
[12:30] <jcoxon> edmoore, pong
[12:31] <edmoore> gordonjcp: the incliment wind rather demands a US launch too
[12:31] <edmoore> jcoxon: hi
[12:31] <edmoore> I'm not sure what I was going to ask
[12:31] <edmoore> something about uplinks
[12:31] <edmoore> just suddenly became very aware that we need one
[12:32] <jcoxon> hmmmmm
[12:32] <jcoxon> there is a potential diagram on the wiki
[12:32] <jcoxon> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/communication:uplink
[12:36] <edmoore> indeed
[12:36] <edmoore> s/pic/avr
[12:36] <jcoxon> of course
[12:36] <edmoore> we need something though, especially to ussue cutdown orders
[12:36] <jcoxon> that said
[12:37] <jcoxon> the PIC code is already around
[12:37] <edmoore> 's easy enough to port
[12:37] <edmoore> we could decode rtty with that software fergus found
[12:37] <edmoore> might need a ARM to do it, though
[12:37] <jcoxon> you mean teh rtty program on linux?
[12:37] <edmoore> yeah
[12:38] <jcoxon> hmmm
[12:38] <jcoxon> defintiely arm or more
[12:38] <edmoore> the linux bit is just a wrapper. it's got the fft and the pattern decoding stuff
[12:38] <jcoxon> oh right
[12:38] <edmoore> linux is just a side-show
[12:38] <jcoxon> never looked into the code
[12:39] <edmoore> well, I mean it has to have the core stuff which doesn't really have anything to do with OS's. Just the signal proc algorithms
[12:39] <jcoxon> well its effiicent code at decoding
[12:40] <jcoxon> seem to remember it didn't miss a beat
[12:40] <edmoore> yeah
[12:41] <edmoore> so although it wants a floating point unit, it could probably be dummed down
[12:41] <edmoore> just scan a few fft bins, etc
[12:41] <gordonjcp> um
[12:41] <jcoxon> edmoore, better add it to the long list of things to do :-p
[12:41] <gordonjcp> wouldn't it be simpler to build a tone decoder?
[12:41] <edmoore> probably, but sdr-ish experience is high on the lidt of things to start getting experienced with
[12:42] <gordonjcp> there may be a higher parts count, but the battery saving would be worth it
[12:42] <edmoore> abd we'll want to start getting reasonably serious uplink/downlink rates before too long
[12:42] <gordonjcp> G3RUH modem then
[12:42] <edmoore> well, as serious as can be got from 10mW anyway
[12:42] <edmoore> oooh
[12:45] <jcoxon> thats pretty much what the wiki page was suggesting
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[12:57] <fnoble> hello
[13:01] <edmoore> hello
[13:01] <fnoble> brb, luncheon
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[13:02] <robert1972> On the way to york to replace the vpm server... Linux to the rescue again
[13:03] <robert1972> vpn*
[13:05] <edmoore> heh
[13:05] <edmoore> I was just looking at some sort of SAN
[13:05] <edmoore> seem to be geenrating gigabytes of raw data now every balloon mission
[13:20] <robert1972> Just had Micky D, back online
[13:21] <robert1972> Hope you have all eaten
[13:21] <robert1972> I guess it's the video that is churning out the bytes
[13:24] <robert1972> edmoore: Does the badger board have everything on one board? GSM / GPS Temp Sensor / barometic etc ...
[13:24] <edmoore> robert1972: new one will
[13:25] <edmoore> old one does, in a prototypey sort of way. Given it was a prototype.
[13:25] <edmoore> it doesn't have baro, though
[13:26] <robert1972> I guess that is all controlled by an avr chip
[13:27] <robert1972> What did you do for temp sensors
[13:28] <robert1972> Humm the badger bit on the wikki is a bit light
[13:28] <edmoore> robert1972: we use ARM chips
[13:29] <edmoore> it's non-existant
[13:29] <edmoore> not even light
[13:29] <edmoore> never got round to using the ukhas wiki, but I will remedy that for v2
[13:30] <edmoore> we use ARM because they have an order of magnitude more grunt whilst still being around the £5 mark. They're not necessary for ballooning strictly, but the grunt lets us have niceties like Fat file systems, usb, and other stuff
[13:31] <edmoore> they should come into their own when they start running control loops for parafoils. but they're pretty wasted on just a balloon flight
[13:36] <robert1972> Whats the current thinking on systems. All one one system or multiple separate systems? I like the idea of separates in case of single system failure. I'm hoping to have both GPS / GSM and Radio Beacon tracking as separate systems for my iniital launch
[13:38] <robert1972> I'm going to try to get incontact with the local ham guys to see if they can provide some support for the radio tracking
[13:40] <edmoore> well.
[13:40] <edmoore> Our thinking goes like this
[13:41] <edmoore> We like simple, which is why we program ARMs low level, with software we've written ourselves or using a 10kb real time OS that we can eyeball and comprehend completely and generally be deterministic with. It works for us, we've had very high reliability with badger
[13:42] <edmoore> it's all integrated on one board for ease. If we want redundancy, we just put 2 badgers onboard
[13:42] <edmoore> but it just does the basics, and does them well, and has room for lots of expansion if we want to start being clever
[13:43] <gordonjcp> edmoore: no, if you want redundancy you put two boards with different architectures and software written by different people on it
[13:43] <gordonjcp> ;-)
[13:44] <edmoore> ha, yes, the old systematic errors
[13:44] <edmoore> well, we test pretty thoroughly all the code, and there's not *that* much of it
[13:44] <edmoore> this is why things like linux scare me
[13:44] <gordonjcp> there are OSes designed for running satellites
[13:45] <edmoore> VxWorks and the like
[13:45] <gordonjcp> I believe there's even an Open-Source OS specifically for amsat use
[13:45] <edmoore> well we use TNKernel
[13:45] <gordonjcp> I cannot for the life of me remember what it's called
[13:45] <edmoore> it's a basic RTOS. does everything we need
[13:45] <gordonjcp> FORTH ftw
[13:45] <edmoore> and it has some nice features like USB bootloading
[13:47] <robert1972> Yep looks like i'm still at the very teething stages of this game
[13:47] <edmoore> our cutdowns have 2 igniters in each of them, as that's the sort of gremlin that can bite you in the arse. We general go-redundant for higher risk mechanically things. I think the basic silicon has pretty high reliability generally though
[13:48] <edmoore> That said, for the rocket launching gondola, there'll be lots of redundancy
[13:48] <gordonjcp> I wonder how hard it would be to make a raft that would float about and explore the sea
[13:48] <edmoore> we were talking about it at the weekend
[13:48] <edmoore> i think doug and james were bandying the idea around
[13:48] <edmoore> a 'floater'
[13:48] <robert1972> Arrving in york have to go and install linux box chat in 5 if all goes to plan
[13:49] <edmoore> solar panels, antenna atop a stick
[13:49] <robert1972> an hour if not
[13:49] <gordonjcp> robert1972: ok
[13:49] <gordonjcp> edmoore: yup
[13:49] <edmoore> robert1972: g'luck
[13:49] <edmoore> that'd be cool, though perhaps not the most interesting pictures
[13:49] <gordonjcp> edmoore: uplink to an amsat, especially if you can get a packet bbs one
[13:49] <edmoore> ah now that's more interesting
[13:50] <robert1972> Thanks for the chat
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[13:50] <gordonjcp> if everything was sealed up and watertight, it would be quite hard to sink
[13:50] <gordonjcp> you could make it self-righting - look at marker buoys
[13:51] <edmoore> gordonjcp: yes I imagine it would be self-righing
[13:51] <edmoore> just pot all the electronics
[13:52] <edmoore> and batteries
[13:52] <edmoore> and have them beneath the waterline, and floats above
[13:52] <edmoore> set it out in the atlandtic and see what happens to it
[13:52] <jcoxon> ooooo a floater
[13:53] <edmoore> yes jcoxon
[13:53] <gordonjcp> yeah
[13:53] <gordonjcp> maybe a string of sensors hanging off the bottom
[13:53] <edmoore> if you let it into the north sea, a 10mW radio should probably be sufficient to keep track of it
[13:53] <jcoxon> i'd be keen to make something
[13:53] <edmoore> maybe have a water temp map
[13:53] <jcoxon> old gps module
[13:53] <edmoore> like what sattelites do
[13:53] <edmoore> only cheaper
[13:53] <jcoxon> some micro
[13:53] <edmoore> and with no directional control
[13:53] <edmoore> and 40000 times slower
[13:53] <jcoxon> solar panels + batteries
[13:54] <jcoxon> and some form off comms
[13:55] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: cubesat with a packet bbs ;-)
[13:56] <jcoxon> floating webserver
[13:56] <jcoxon> gordonjcp, i'm keen to make one
[13:56] <gordonjcp> cubesat passes over the floater, floater downloads commands and uploads telemetry
[13:56] <jcoxon> oooooo
[13:56] <gordonjcp> then the cubesat passes over us, we download the telemetry and upload commands
[13:57] <jcoxon> does this require us to launch a cubesat?
[13:57] <gordonjcp> it might do
[13:57] <jcoxon> haha
[13:57] <jcoxon> why not a 10W radio isntead
[13:57] <gordonjcp> it also requires an underground bunker with pneumatically-operated doors and 1960s furniture
[13:57] <jcoxon> then we could recieve it ourselves
[13:58] <jcoxon> gordonjcp, oh that can go in the water tower base
[13:58] <gordonjcp> hmm, you might be able to do it with HF
[13:58] <ShellEvil> I could donate a suitable white cat to the cause, for stroking in a menacing manner.
[13:59] <ShellEvil> Oh. Somewhere I saw mention of a satellite modem for $200
[13:59] Action: ShellEvil wonders where that was.
[14:01] <jcoxon> right i'll bbl
[14:01] <ShellEvil> Aha
[14:02] <ShellEvil> I was thinking about the Thuraya Module SM-2500 module (http://www.thuraya.com/content/thurayamodule.html). We have been using it here for another project and it's quite versatile. It's basically a phone/modem combo with a 100 pin interface that exposes a variety of signals (including microphone input, speaker output, a client USB port, 2 UARTs, etc). It has a builtin GPS receiver and it can be made to work with a small omnidirectional quadri
[14:02] <ShellEvil> osts under 200 euro.
[14:11] <edmoore> natrium: has been playing with sat comms
[14:12] <gordonjcp> I've been listening for satellites
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[14:17] <ShellEvil> I think the first page of http://www.thuraya.com/wp-content/files/File/pdf/ThurayaModule.pdf may overstate the required antenna size.
[14:19] <gordonjcp> lol
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[14:29] <edmoore> oh hang on I think I see what you guys are saying
[14:29] <SpikeUK> ShellEvil - I do hope so
[14:29] <edmoore> make a balloon payload deigned to float
[14:29] <edmoore> designed*
[14:29] <edmoore> and just let it land on water
[14:30] <edmoore> go for the all time super-silly altitude record
[14:30] <edmoore> but having it ascent at 5am/second
[14:30] <edmoore> by*
[14:30] <edmoore> 5cm/second*
[14:30] <gordonjcp> actually that's not a bad idea, if the payload would float and still talk it may be possible to recover it even at sea
[14:30] <edmoore> dump it in the north sea, hope for the best
[14:31] <edmoore> indeed
[14:31] <edmoore> or let it was up somewhere
[14:31] <edmoore> we've had a payload turn up in denmark
[14:31] <SpikeUK> You will not have to traipse around muddy fields! But - who's got a boat?
[14:31] <edmoore> I was thinking just leave it
[14:31] <ShellEvil> Hmm. That's not too unreasonable. Well under a pound a minute in all cases.
[14:32] <edmoore> maybe have satt-comms to keep an eye on it
[14:32] <ShellEvil> If you've got a $120/year contract, it's $.25/SMS and $.99/min
[14:32] <edmoore> pot all the tronics that you can, waterproof all the tronics that you can't
[14:32] <edmoore> make sure it floats well and upright
[14:33] <ShellEvil> Add solar cells, and a little prop.
[14:33] <edmoore> maybe detach the chute on landing
[14:33] <SpikeUK> ..add postage home?
[14:33] <edmoore> have like a 1m carbon fibre mast
[14:33] <ShellEvil> Attach an extra balloon, and a worldwide BOC helium voucher.
[14:34] <edmoore> with the gps antenna ontop, and a heel antenna beneath
[14:34] <edmoore> wheel*
[14:34] <ShellEvil> And camera.
[14:34] <edmoore> of course!
[14:34] <SpikeUK> ...Ellen McArthur?
[14:35] <edmoore> she might not like the balloon bit
[14:36] <SpikeUK> I'd not thought of that ;-) It'd give her something to cry about though
[14:36] <edmoore> I always think of daed ringers when someone talks about her
[14:37] <SpikeUK> me too
[14:38] <SpikeUK> On a tangent - could I ask what AVR dev. tools peeps use?
[14:38] <edmoore> winavr
[14:38] <gordonjcp> SpikeUK: Ellen McArthur?
[14:38] <gordonjcp> SpikeUK: dunno, I'll ask her at the weekend
[14:38] <edmoore> well, the mac equivalent. but the gnu toolchain is very well documented, supported, respected, etc etc
[14:38] <edmoore> avrfreaks.net is the main hide-out for it, and the avr hotspot on t'net
[14:39] <edmoore> the forum is absolutely great
[14:39] <SpikeUK> gordonjcp - LOL!
[14:40] <SpikeUK> edmoore - does nobody use Atmel's AVR Studio?
[14:40] <gordonjcp> SpikeUK: friend of a friend - she lives beside one of my friends from waaay back
[14:41] <edmoore> SpikeUK: you can plug it into avr-studio, I beleive
[14:41] <SpikeUK> gordonjcp - small world (but not from 30km!)
[14:41] <gordonjcp> SpikeUK: yeah
[14:42] <SpikeUK> edmoore - thanks for that! Just trying to get tool chain for my (our) Robostix.
[14:43] <edmoore> SpikeUK: I couldn't tell you about proprietary tools, I'm a student. But of all the OS tools I've seen for embdeed, the entire avr-gcc scene is streets ahead of any other projects I've come across
[14:44] <gordonjcp> arduino is avr-gcc based
[14:44] <SpikeUK> AVR Studio is a free download. But requires registration.
[14:46] <edmoore> Better check the winavr site - I am on a mac so have never tried setting up the toolchain on windows
[14:47] <SpikeUK> ..good point! AVR Studio seems Win only.
[14:47] <edmoore> I just use the command line tools
[14:47] <edmoore> and vi or some other editor
[14:54] <SpikeUK> edmoore - thanks for that!
[14:55] <edmoore> but, I have only done a bit of avr programming. So I'm not at all expert.
[14:55] <SpikeUK> gordonjcp - I've looked at the Arduino - how does that compaire with the Gumstix?
[14:56] <SpikeUK> edmoore - it may be only a "bit" but it's more than me ;-)
[14:57] <gordonjcp> SpikeUK: it doesn't ;-)
[14:58] <gordonjcp> SpikeUK: it's basically just an Atmega 32 on a wee board with a built-in USB-to-serial dealie
[15:02] <SpikeUK> gordonjcp - ok - not the same at all then
[15:02] <gordonjcp> nope
[15:04] <edmoore> it's the 'ok let's make a pcb to hook up this avr to a crystal and give it some power and break out a bit of io so I can tinker' pcb, that you normally make
[15:04] <edmoore> but for those than can't/don't want to make it
[15:04] <edmoore> + a less scary development environment
[15:08] <edmoore> though I beleive jcoxon has just identified a problem with their default software serial library
[15:11] <SpikeUK> Cheers edmoore - I think I li8ke the sound of a "less scary dev . environment" ATM ;-)
[15:14] <edmoore> indeed!
[15:14] <edmoore> well sparkfun is good
[15:14] <edmoore> they have all sorts of varients
[15:14] <gordonjcp> edmoore: yeah
[15:14] <gordonjcp> edmoore: tbh, for 20 quid including next-day shipping
[15:15] <gordonjcp> edmoore: it's a nice finished-looking board with all the bits and even a USB port
[15:15] <gordonjcp> very boss-friendly
[15:15] <edmoore> I don't have bosses, thankfully
[15:15] <gordonjcp> "I'll just buy a couple of those and a couple of relays, and we'll have your remote power switch in no time..."
[15:15] <gordonjcp> I have a boss that lets me expense stuff from tinker.it
[15:21] <SpikeUK> I have bosses, but it's best not to tell then too much ;-)
[15:22] <edmoore> :)
[15:23] <SpikeUK> them*
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[15:49] <robert1972> That took longer than expected
[15:51] <edmoore> what was wrong?
[15:51] <robert1972> On way back to Leeds. Looking forward to having a play with the Dallas one wire protocol tonight. I have found a library with some code to do the communication
[15:51] <ShellEvil> OWFS?
[15:51] <ShellEvil> Handy on linux.
[15:52] <robert1972> The internet connection was flacky for the York office. I had a new 2 mb/s lease line put in a month ago and i moved them accross to the new connection whilst replacing the linux vpn router
[15:55] <robert1972> Have 2 10MB/s connections in Leeds main office so i'M HOPING TO SET UP RED5 for streaming the next launch. The connections arn't hardly used at the w/e
[15:55] <robert1972> weekend
[15:55] <robert1972> Battery low so may just randomly die
[15:56] <robert1972> Not my pacemaker :)
[15:58] <robert1972> Anyone got a ham licence? Thinking of getting one as it may be useful going forward
[15:59] <jcoxon> robert1972, its not necessary for the 10mW work however its always useful
[15:59] <jcoxon> i'm going to go to a course in a few months time
[15:59] <robert1972> Is 10mw enough for fox hunting?
[15:59] <jcoxon> yup
[15:59] <jcoxon> thats what we used on sunday
[16:00] <jcoxon> you actually can't fly a radio that does more then 10mW
[16:00] <robert1972> Hum... That should do me... What's the range ish?
[16:00] <jcoxon> depends on how you do it...
[16:00] <ShellEvil> It might be a good plan to use a beacon on a couple of frequencies, in case of interference.
[16:00] <ShellEvil> And what altitude it's at.
[16:00] <ShellEvil> At altitude, several hundred miles
[16:00] <robert1972> Yep I read something about that in the regulations
[16:00] <jcoxon> but the cusf guys managed to still be tracking a payload heading into holland
[16:01] <jcoxon> they then went ot the pub and the decoder software crashed
[16:01] <jcoxon> so they lost the last bits of data
[16:01] <robert1972> Opps
[16:01] <jcoxon> oh well
[16:02] <robert1972> Ok then I may look at the course as i think those guys may be of some help and the knowlege would be usefull
[16:02] <jcoxon> knowledge is always useful!
[16:02] <robert1972> Depennds what it displaces I think my RAM is nearly full :)
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[16:03] <robert1972> Bit of a steep learning curve so far on the electronics
[16:05] <edmoore> you're chewing through it very well though
[16:05] <edmoore> 's only a matter of time
[16:05] <robert1972> jcoxon: you nust have been pleased with the results from the w/e. The weather looked pretty grim compared to the Saturday
[16:05] <jcoxon> oh the sunday weather was much better balloonwise then saturday
[16:06] <jcoxon> I'm glad we got it back!
[16:08] <robert1972> edmoore: I'm very pleased with progress todate. Camera and servo under controll of avr. Just need to get sensors and tracking sorted and we're there for the first launch. I'm hoping to get Leeds univeristy (my old haunt) to do some testing of polystyrene in a vacume chamber to see the amount of swelling you get with altitude
[16:08] <robert1972> Was that in the Jets
[16:08] <robert1972> The better weather?
[16:08] <jcoxon> the jetstream was fast on saturday and much calmer on sunday
[16:09] <edmoore> robert1972: sounds cool. Also, for some fun, if you get an old polystyrene box, fill it with dry ice and pop the payload in
[16:09] <edmoore> let it cool down
[16:09] <edmoore> and see what happens
[16:11] <robert1972> I was going to leave it in a coldstore for 10 hours at -30, but that might be easier to keep an eye on. I need to spend a bit of time on sorting the power source for the payload. Lithium is the obvoius answer. Was wondering about haveing independent power for the beacon or gps just incase :)
[16:12] <robert1972> Hopefully the power source should povide enough heat to keep the internals at around 0c
[16:13] <edmoore> robert1972: I'd make the beacon entirely seperate if you're having one
[16:13] <jcoxon> i second that
[16:13] <robert1972> anyone got the link for the pics from sunday
[16:13] <edmoore> http://www.nivnac.co.uk/files/HAPS/HAPS1_20_polar_quarter.jpg
[16:13] <edmoore> :)
[16:13] <robert1972> Right thats settled then
[16:14] <edmoore> otherwise I'd just run everything else off one battery
[16:14] <robert1972> awsume !!!!! I hadn't seen that
[16:14] <edmoore> unless you're flying SLRs, it's probably cheaper to keep it minimal and build it again if you loose it, than to go crazy on failure modes analysis
[16:15] <edmoore> and the extra expense of redundant odds and sods that that incurs
[16:15] <robert1972> I'm trying to build in parallel at the moment. To have a spare incase the unthinkable happens :)
[16:15] <edmoore> haha, good plan
[16:18] <robert1972> edmore: How did you put that view together. Was the spinning of the payload enough to produce the necessary images?
[16:20] <robert1972> .
[16:20] <ShellEvil> AIUI, it was simply put together from random ones
[16:20] <ShellEvil> over quite a long period
[16:21] <edmoore> robert1972: I didn't
[16:22] <robert1972> Still pretty fu@King amazing ... Who did it
[16:22] <edmoore> James Canvin
[16:23] <robert1972> Not on here then ;(
[16:23] <edmoore> no - 'prive missions' on unmannedspaceflight.com is the place to look
[16:24] <edmoore> private*
[16:24] <robert1972> It must have taken a bit of time to warp and stitch all that, unless someone has some geo mapping s/w to hand
[16:25] <edmoore> I think this guy is rather competant - this is his site: http://www.nivnac.co.uk/mer/index.php/
[16:26] <robert1972> I'll log that for the big day. I'm hoping to have a chat with natrium42 about testing his tracker when I do my teathered launch. Need to train the media guy I have roped in.
[16:26] <edmoore> awesome
[16:26] <edmoore> well I'm excited now about building new stuff
[16:26] <edmoore> badger2 and badger truck, all to be built
[16:27] <robert1972> Get the stuff on the wikki so we can follow progress
[16:27] <edmoore> I willdo. It's The Right Thing To Do
[16:27] <edmoore> will have a good session on the pcb tonight
[16:28] <edmoore> and I've just had a configurational idea for the truck which I think might be pretty darn funky
[16:28] <robert1972> Right arriving at the office Leeds so I had best sign off. Chat later...
[16:28] <edmoore> cool, cya
[16:28] <robert1972> ttfn. Thanks for the chat.
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[16:36] <robert1971> In the office now so going quiet... Edmoore do you have that link once again, sorry
[16:37] <edmoore> http://www.nivnac.co.uk/mer/index.php/
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[17:07] <robert1971> .
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[18:11] <robert1971> Has anyone considered somehting like this as a backup http://www.trimtrac.com/about/TrimTrac%20Pro%20Brochure.pdf. Removed from box it may make a neat solution not bad for 116 pounds
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[18:16] <robert1971> edmoore: Has anyone considered something like this as a backup http://www.trimtrac.com/about/TrimTrac%20Pro%20Brochure.pdf. Removed from box it may make a neat solution for 116 quid.
[18:16] <robert1971> Sorry abou the repeat but ed just missed this
[18:19] <ShellEvil> IIRC spackfuyn is cheaperr
[18:20] <ShellEvil> Or not
[18:21] <robert1971> Yep 35 quid but then I have to interface with GSM
[18:23] <ShellEvil> What's this for?
[18:23] <robert1971> Balloon recovery?
[18:23] <ShellEvil> I've suggested in the past one of the web-trackers of mobile phones for long-range tracking.
[18:23] <ShellEvil> And a cheap PAYG with the case off.
[18:24] <ShellEvil> This will only give you worst case within a few hundred m though.
[18:24] <ShellEvil> But it's really cheap.
[18:24] <ShellEvil> Adding a beacon and you're practically there.
[18:25] <robert1971> This is true. I was hoping to capture the GPS data too in my defence. But your pricin
[18:25] <robert1971> oops
[18:25] <robert1971> pricing is tempting
[18:25] <ShellEvil> Capturing GPS is pretty easy with stock micro boards and a very little programming.
[18:25] <robert1971> Yep
[18:26] <ShellEvil> Then again - if going that way - you have to ask why not add a GSM module too - which are damn cheap on ebay
[18:26] <ShellEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SMD-M32-Tri-band-GSM-GPRS-Phone-Wireless-Module-Benq_W0QQitemZ250287212637QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250287212637&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177
[18:27] <ShellEvil> Though you have to be carefull with that ebay seller.
[18:27] <ShellEvil> They have a 'Oooh - one of those too' USB store.
[18:29] <ShellEvil> err
[18:29] <ShellEvil> s/USB//
[18:30] <robert1971> oK i HAVE TO DRIVE HOME I'll think some more on this on the way...
[18:30] <edmoore> hi robert1971: sorry, was having a shower
[18:30] <edmoore> those trackers cost about as much as a badger :)
[18:30] <edmoore> well, I reckon a badger is about £150 in components
[18:31] <edmoore> most of which is the gsm module
[18:31] <robert1971> It just looked a neat, if pricy, quick solution for first launch
[18:32] <edmoore> aye, if you start charging time at even £1 an hour, it becomes way cheaper than badger :)
[18:33] <robert1971> Price is not a big issue at the moment, it's primarily time. Typically when you have the money you don't have the time. When you have the time you don't have the money.
[18:33] <edmoore> We're definitely the latter. Student life and that
[18:35] <robert1971> Yep that was 10 yeas ago 4 me. I have 4 kids in private school that is a touch pricey. 1, 4, 8, 14 years old. Sold house just before credit crunch and wife got paid a nice redundancy from Astra Zeneca after 18 years a a director
[18:35] <robert1971> a = as
[18:37] <robert1971> I'm an IT director in a Law Firm, so for me time is the big issue as wife and kids need some attention.
[18:38] <robert1971> Talking of which I'm going to have to dash for home
[18:38] <robert1971> chat in an hour
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[18:41] <SpeedEvil> Take kids out of school, and go for x-prize! :)
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> 0p=l
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> 4
[19:16] <jcoxon> edmoore, seen the new panoramic?
[19:16] <jcoxon> http://www.nivnac.co.uk/files/HAPS/HAPS1_withvideo_polar_quarter.jpg
[19:16] <jcoxon> filled in the whole with data from the videos
[19:17] <jcoxon> hole*
[19:20] <ShellEvil> Insanely awesome.
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[19:24] <Laurenceb> hello
[19:25] <jcoxon> hello Laurenceb
[19:25] <Laurenceb> I'm back :D
[19:25] <jcoxon> phew, we were worried ;-)
[19:25] <Laurenceb> hehe
[19:26] <ShellEvil> rcforums.com is probably the right place to ask.
[19:26] <ShellEvil> about the servo thing
[19:26] <Laurenceb> yeah
[19:26] <Laurenceb> think I've decided what to do with the mini rogallo - go with two 2000mah lipo cells and use a buck regulator to go down to 5v
[19:27] <Laurenceb> theres 2.5 times the maximum torque it'll ever need at 5v from the futaba S3152
[19:28] <ShellEvil> Sure the buck can handle the spikes?
[19:28] <ShellEvil> and max current?
[19:28] <ShellEvil> I guess you'd want at least a couple of amps.
[19:28] <ShellEvil> I'd also wonder abotu just using a LDO linear reg.
[19:28] <ShellEvil> As heat isn't bad in this app.
[19:28] <Laurenceb> rapid sell 3A regulators
[19:29] <Laurenceb> yeah, but a to-220 could actually overheat
[19:29] <ShellEvil> teeny heatsink.
[19:29] <Laurenceb> nooooo
[19:34] <Laurenceb> it'd just be a waste of energy
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[19:36] <jcoxon> edmoore, ping
[19:38] <ShellEvil> Not wasted if it keeps the payload toasty.
[19:39] <Laurenceb> 1 watt is enough
[19:43] <ShellEvil> Personally, even if using a SMPS for the servo, I'd put the micro on a 7805
[19:46] <Laurenceb> yeah, thats what I'm doing
[19:46] <Laurenceb> as I've already made the uC board
[19:46] <Laurenceb> so the smps will be built into the servo lead
[19:47] <akawaka> jcoxon: any more pictures or videos uploaded?
[19:47] <ShellEvil> Currently looking for small SMPSs.
[19:47] <ShellEvil> Chips. Can't find any nice cheap ones.
[19:48] <Laurenceb> SheelEvil: rapid sell 3A ones
[19:48] <ShellEvil> (~pound, 200mA@2V, ideally li-ion USB charger too.
[19:48] <natrium> akawaka, they are all linked in the unmannedspaceflight thread
[19:48] <natrium> http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=5369
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[20:11] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: do you have a crimp tool?
[20:18] <Laurenceb> actually... the efficiency of that buck regulator is ~80% so a linear reg isnt much worse
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[20:38] <Laurenceb> hmm actually it looks like a linear to220 will go up in smoke without a heat sink
[20:39] <Laurenceb> about 180C delta T
[20:39] <Laurenceb> but a buck regulator will go up about 80 centigrade if the servo is running at 100% load all the time
[20:40] <Laurenceb> the main problem is that the entire payload will be a smoldering mess if the servo goes mad after landing :-/
[20:41] <Laurenceb> whatever power supply is used... so I'll use a buck reg with an enable input so it can be turned off on touchdown
[20:43] <Laurenceb> I need about 10C/Watt of thermal resistance from the payload enclosure, enough to keep it >-20 during the flight, but on landing the power consumption has to come down
[20:44] <SpeedEvil> There is the silly solution of course.
[20:44] <SpeedEvil> 50C thermal fuse.
[20:45] <Laurenceb> yeah... might be worth investing in
[20:45] <Laurenceb> dont want to locate the landing spot from the smoke plume
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[20:46] Action: SpeedEvil checks email.
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> Nope.
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> I asked the vendor of Li-S cells if they actually had any available for purchase.
[20:46] <Laurenceb> nope what?
[20:46] <Laurenceb> ah
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> No response as yet.
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[20:47] <Laurenceb> I tried out some exterior grade pva earlier, it looks good for coating the enclosure
[20:47] <Laurenceb> better flexibility than epoxy
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> :)
[20:51] <Laurenceb> actually, a large proportion of the energy loss will be in the inductor and diode
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> Synch rect.
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> You can easily get >95% if you care.
[20:52] <Laurenceb> hmm this is fairly easy and will do the job I think
[20:53] <Laurenceb> datasheet says amu electrolytic caps, will tantalum smd ones be ok?
[20:53] <Laurenceb> *alu
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> yes
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> Only problem with tants is you don't want them where they may be hit with inrush currents on battery connection.
[20:54] <Laurenceb> oh it says on the next page
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> They sometimes catch fire if you do that.
[20:55] <Laurenceb> wow
[20:55] <Laurenceb> well the batteries will be permanently installed
[20:55] <Laurenceb> actually no, theres an on/off switch
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> Finally!
[20:56] <Laurenceb> ?
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> My workroom is more-or-less clean.
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> As in I just dropped a tube of LM324s on the floor, and I was able to find them all immediately.
[20:56] <Laurenceb> ha
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> vs a RMS depth of 50cm.
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> New anti-static mat installed on desk.
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> Well - old.
[20:57] <Laurenceb> hmm smps design is complicated
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> It has a shiny RoDime logo in each corner.
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> New chips make it damn easy.
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> The scary part is the feedback loops, which most of these chips do for you.
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> Now it's pretty much pick a inductor with a suitable inducatance, series resistance, according to the datasheet formulae, and you're done.
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[21:18] <Laurenceb> would you worry about emi from rapid 88-1296
[21:19] <Laurenceb> I'm just thinking the flux isnt all enclosed...
[21:21] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: about?
[21:30] <ShellEvil> I don't know.
[21:30] <Laurenceb> hmm
[21:30] <ShellEvil> As long as you're several diameters away from the inductor, it's less of a problem.
[21:30] <Laurenceb> well everything is digital
[21:30] <Laurenceb> yes, easily
[21:30] <ShellEvil> The field falls of at what - l^4 or something?
[21:31] <ShellEvil> prolly 4
[21:31] <ShellEvil> prolly 3
[21:31] <Laurenceb> 1 if its a travelling wave
[21:31] <Laurenceb> but the local field is different... I forget :-/
[21:32] <Laurenceb> think its 2
[21:32] <Laurenceb> as its a local field, not an em wave
[21:32] <ShellEvil> It's 2 - if you've got a magnetic monopole
[21:32] <Laurenceb> yeah
[21:32] <ShellEvil> Which you probably don't.
[21:32] Action: Laurenceb gets back to ordering supplies
[21:33] <Laurenceb> http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Capacitors/Solid-Alumin-Electrolytic/OS-CON-SA-Series-solid-aluminium-electrolytic-capacitors/66846
[21:33] <Laurenceb> ^ what do you think to those?
[21:34] <ShellEvil> temp looks good
[21:35] <Laurenceb> organic semiconductor electrolyte ?!
[21:48] <Hiena> Fancy name for a squirrel.
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[21:58] <edmoore> jcoxon: ok.
[21:58] <edmoore> wow.
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[22:01] <jcoxon> back
[22:03] <jcoxon> just been testing the gumstix soundcard with steve
[22:03] <natrium> how's the test?
[22:04] <jcoxon> good
[22:04] <Laurenceb> converted to DC ?
[22:04] <jcoxon> it already does DC
[22:04] <jcoxon> so can do the shaping etc
[22:05] <jcoxon> and also do SSTV in ssb
[22:05] <Laurenceb> you removed the cap?
[22:05] <jcoxon> didn't need to
[22:05] <Laurenceb> interesting
[22:05] <Laurenceb> does SSTV work over ssb then?
[22:05] <natrium> so what was the problem with haps-1?
[22:05] <jcoxon> natrium, oh
[22:05] <jcoxon> i think it might have been the connector between the radio and the gumstix
[22:06] <jcoxon> as i ran the gumstix for 12 hours last night and i've tested for shorts through out the cables
[22:07] <natrium> aah
[22:07] <natrium> we need to find good connectors to use...
[22:07] <jcoxon> but being able to do everything through ssb will make life a lot better
[22:07] <jcoxon> big extension of the range
[22:07] <Laurenceb> yeah
[22:07] <jcoxon> well some extension at least
[22:08] <Laurenceb> hmf my rapid order is £40 :-/
[22:08] <jcoxon> natrium, it'll work out
[22:08] <jcoxon> but perhaps i should implement few features each launch :-p
[22:08] <Laurenceb> this always happens... all the little 10p bits and pieces add up to somethnig mad
[22:08] <natrium> Laurenceb, just break it up in multiple orders and pretend that the total sum was small
[22:08] <Laurenceb> ha
[22:09] <natrium> jcoxon, what features? :)
[22:09] <Laurenceb> well at least I got some discount smd caps - non rohs
[22:09] <jcoxon> haha
[22:09] <Laurenceb> I'm using the LM2576t-5.0 for the servo
[22:09] <jcoxon> potential launch this friday
[22:10] <jcoxon> i'll set the decoding sorted
[22:10] <jcoxon> and hopefully upload
[22:10] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: have you tested sstv over ssb yet?
[22:10] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, not yet
[22:10] <jcoxon> we need to do some coding
[22:10] <natrium> jcoxon, wow, quick turnaround
[22:10] <jcoxon> not me
[22:10] <jcoxon> badger
[22:10] <natrium> oh
[22:10] <natrium> nightlaunch?
[22:10] <jcoxon> nope
[22:10] <jcoxon> but incredible conditions
[22:11] <jcoxon> forecasts reckon it'll only travel 6miles
[22:12] <natrium> cool
[22:12] <jcoxon> but will go very high
[22:12] <Laurenceb> wow
[22:12] <Laurenceb> bbl
[22:12] <jcoxon> considering that i have a 1.5kg balloon to deliver to them tomorrow
[22:13] <natrium> use a UAV
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[22:14] <natrium> actually, i have been thinking about UAV postal service
[22:14] <jcoxon> oh i'm in cambridge tomorrow its no problem
[22:14] <jcoxon> visiting friends
[22:14] <jcoxon> but a 1.5kg is a big balloon
[22:14] <jcoxon> and their payload isn't that big!
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[22:14] <natrium> going for new record? :)
[22:14] <jcoxon> they might well be
[22:15] <ShellEvil> I wonder if UV might be a big problem.
[22:15] <ShellEvil> For ultimate altitude balloons.
[22:15] <robert1971> I just want to spread a little bit of excitement around
[22:15] <robert1971> I got my temp sensor working
[22:15] <jcoxon> WWOOOHOOOOOOOOOOO
[22:16] <robert1971> La La la la la laa
[22:16] <jcoxon> ;-)
[22:16] <robert1971> If you're interested its 23.7 C in here
[22:16] <robert1971> 23.6 now
[22:16] <natrium> robert1971, cool, onewire>
[22:16] <natrium> ?
[22:16] <robert1971> I hav just taken my finger off it
[22:17] <robert1971> Yep the DS1821 I love you temp sensor from Dallas
[22:17] <robert1971> -55 limit :(
[22:17] <natrium> should be fine
[22:17] <robert1971> But hey I don't give a sh1t if i miss the last bit out
[22:17] <ShellEvil> -55 is about the bottom of what the air gets to
[22:18] <natrium> robert1971, onewire is nice because you can connect a dozen of sensor to the same line
[22:18] <robert1971> 1 wire proto I love it... We'll some one else wrote the 25 lines of code to do the prtocol
[22:18] <robert1971> Yep about 20 aparently
[22:18] Action: ShellEvil stabs dallas/maxim for NRND'ng the 1-wire network switch chip.
[22:19] <robert1971> To be fair I have just bodged the code from another dude who wrote the stuff to out put on LCD. I stripped out the LCD stuff and shoved in some UART stuff
[22:20] Action: robert1971 is gloating and show wife exciting output on minicom
[22:20] <robert1971> show = showing
[22:21] <robert1971> Where is the 1 wire barometer
[22:21] <natrium> haha
[22:21] <robert1971> Wife is not so sure this is exciting :(
[22:21] <ShellEvil> I think one of the expensive buttons does barometric pressure.
[22:21] <natrium> but they are easy to use via ADC
[22:21] <ShellEvil> Or maybe that was humidity.
[22:22] <robert1971> Ok I'll do adc for the barometer. Do we care about humidity up there I thought it was dry
[22:22] <robert1971> We could prove it. But I think it's dry in Tibet
[22:23] <ShellEvil> Humidity is another thing to measure.
[22:23] <jcoxon> Tibet can be pretty wet sometimes
[22:23] <yansa> hi
[22:23] <robert1971> Save for the rainy season. Once you're out of the troposphere I thought the water vapour would stuggle for being too heavy
[22:23] <robert1971> Hi Yansa
[22:23] <ShellEvil> water vapour is not heavy.
[22:24] <ShellEvil> H2O is only an H heavier than O2
[22:24] <yansa> jus tmy 2 cents - 1 wire barometer - google is your forend - first hit from google - http://davidbray.org/onewire/barometer.html
[22:24] <yansa> but i guess you don't have time to build one ...
[22:24] <robert1971> Not compared to helium hydrogen oxygen what else is up there
[22:24] <ShellEvil> robert1971: yes
[22:24] <ShellEvil> robert1971: the atmosphere is largely homogenous - at least at this level.
[22:25] <ShellEvil> robert1971: water vapour is well-mixed in even at high levels.
[22:25] <ShellEvil> There is no great changes in atmospheric gas content in the range of balloons.
[22:25] <robert1971> Nice one yansa. I don't think we have chatted before... I said that as a joke but I may just look into that.
[22:25] <natrium> yansa, he can just directly connect it to an ADC pin (which this board you linked essentially does)
[22:26] <ShellEvil> Pressure - sure - but not relative abundances.
[22:26] <robert1971> Nice word homogenous
[22:26] <robert1971> I used obfuscated today
[22:26] <ShellEvil> Water is somewhat less present - but that's due to low temperature on the way up.
[22:27] <robert1971> OK OK I'll put a bloody humidity thingy on there
[22:27] <robert1971> :-)
[22:27] <robert1971> At least we'll know
[22:27] <ShellEvil> A reason for deuterium enrichment on earth is that water in the upper atmosphere gets ionised, the H pops off, and if it's light H, it gets blown away on the solar wind.
[22:28] <ShellEvil> If it's D instead, it tends to stick around.
[22:28] <robert1971> natrium: You put some sensors on your stuff. Did you go for humidity?
[22:28] <ShellEvil> This is very noticable on venus.
[22:29] <robert1971> ShellEvil: You seem to be a wealth of random knowledge
[22:29] <ShellEvil> Too much time reading :(
[22:29] <robert1971> Very productive
[22:29] <robert1971> And remembering which is the bit I find hard
[22:30] <ShellEvil> Health has been a problem for a while, and some times I can't really get up the energy for anything else.
[22:31] <robert1971> edmoore: I'm going to have to give up on the thermistor. Though I could send one up and calibrate it against the DS1821 and then extrapolate for the below -55C
[22:31] <robert1971> readings
[22:31] <natrium> robert1971, only pressure and temperature
[22:31] <natrium> humidity would be nice, though
[22:31] <robert1971> Ok you have all convinced me that it's worth it
[22:32] <natrium> :D
[22:32] <jcoxon> right i'm off
[22:32] <jcoxon> night all
[22:32] <robert1971> I hope my poor AVR board can give enough juice to all these sensors
[22:32] <natrium> nite jcoxon
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[22:32] <robert1971> nights
[22:32] <robert1971> beat me
[22:32] <natrium> robert1971, how many temp sensors are you going to use?
[22:33] <robert1971> 3, Internal, External and on wrapped with the camera
[22:33] <robert1971> on one*
[22:33] <natrium> ah, good idea for the camera
[22:33] <robert1971> 23.4 C in my room BTW
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[22:34] <robert1971> I thought it would be interesting to see how much heat it generated when shooting 30 second of video every 5 mins in -55C
[22:35] <robert1971> I'm going to wrap it up as much as possible and move the power supply inside but the zoom lense is going to have to be exposed
[22:35] <ShellEvil> You can always use a window.
[22:36] Action: ShellEvil passes robert1971 brewsters angle
[22:36] <ShellEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster's_angle
[22:37] <ShellEvil> A window at that angle has no reflection
[22:37] <natrium> window might cause internal reflection and condensation...
[22:37] <natrium> ah
[22:37] <natrium> but there's still danger of consensation :P
[22:37] <ShellEvil> condensation - true - you'll have to heat it
[22:37] <natrium> and condensation too
[22:40] <robert1971> and the camera is moving up down and to horizon
[22:41] <robert1971> natrium: Do did it with the zoom lense exposed, so to speak
[22:41] <robert1971> Do = you
[22:41] <natrium> yep
[22:42] <natrium> worked fine, but it's only a single data point
[22:42] <natrium> doug used a similar camera
[22:42] <robert1971> Canon should be sending us free cameras for shock testing. What a great sales pitch
[22:42] <natrium> haha
[22:42] <robert1971> Humm single but moveable?
[22:43] <robert1971> Our are you thinking 6 cameras at once
[22:43] <ShellEvil> I've got some first surface mirrors from ebay for that.
[22:43] <ShellEvil> For stabilisation and pointing.
[22:43] <natrium> robert1971, i mean it's only a single test
[22:43] <natrium> maybe next time it will fail
[22:43] <robert1971> Hey that where the fun comes in.
[22:44] <natrium> :)
[22:44] <natrium> no risk, no gain
[22:44] <ShellEvil> Absent an environmental chamber to test in, it's a crapshoot.
[22:44] <robert1971> I'm going to do a teathered launch in a week or so time can I use your tracker to test media capabilities
[22:44] <ShellEvil> And -55C is hard to get - not to mention a couple of millibars
[22:44] <natrium> robert1971, sure
[22:45] <natrium> it accepts coordinates via HTTP GET or email
[22:45] <natrium> whichever is easier for you
[22:45] <robert1971> One of my mates has been charged with doing the media for the real launch and I thought it would be good to test a few things out
[22:45] <natrium> for example, sms-to-email can be used to send coordinates from payload directly to tracker
[22:46] <natrium> i'll just make a new wiki page, i think
[22:46] <natrium> on setting it up
[22:48] <robert1971> If I can get GPS working by next week, it may be dirty and it won't travel far, but at least it will give some idea.
[22:49] <robert1971> I have a gps that gives nema strings and I could send it up with the gumstix to send data back over the web or via email
[22:49] <robert1971> It's a speed camera detector for the car but I could box it in as a test
[22:50] <ShellEvil> lassen IQ from sparkfun.
[22:50] <ShellEvil> GPS
[22:50] <robert1971> Been through that
[22:50] <natrium> robert1971, are you using GSM or radio too?
[22:51] <robert1971> lassen SKII on way with the trimtrac
[22:51] <robert1971> that or a very long serial cable
[22:51] <robert1971> :-)
[22:51] <robert1971> GSM hopefully
[22:51] <robert1971> sms 2 text
[22:52] <robert1971> is there an eay way to get peoples names at the start of a line?
[22:52] <robert1971> I know type them
[22:52] <ShellEvil> try pressing nat<tab>
[22:52] <robert1971> natrium: Whicked
[22:53] <robert1971> ShellEvil: I'm glad I asked
[22:53] <natrium> :)
[22:53] <robert1971> I'v been typing them for the last six weeks
[22:54] <robert1971> that why I tend to ommit them. I live in bash so should have been obvious
[22:55] <robert1971> edmoore, must be busy with his badger truck. I think he had a eurika moment at work today on the design?
[22:57] <robert1971> I only saw the globe view of the UK from last w/e today and that looked fantastic. I couldn't believe that it was made from the random images.
[22:57] <natrium> i need to learn how to do that
[22:57] <natrium> it's quite awesome
[22:58] <robert1971> You have loads of pics surely you could do the same with the knowledge
[22:59] <robert1971> Do you think the dallas DS1821 and DS18S20 are interchangable
[22:59] <robert1971> I got the 18S20 as its networkable with a 64bit ID
[23:00] <natrium> hmm, it has been a while since i used them
[23:00] <robert1971> Did you use them on your payload or in another project?
[23:02] <natrium> another project
[23:05] <robert1971> No it needs a ROM code sent to it first to tell it to work
[23:06] <robert1971> send back 1.5C which is probably an error code converted into temp :)
[23:08] <natrium> haha, as you get closer to setting it up properly, the code should become warmer and warmer :P
[23:08] <robert1971> Not sure what to do whether to put one sensor on each pin or 3 on one and network them. I have the one pin thing working... May save clock cycles to use the network though and sample each one every three seconds. Decisions decisions
[23:08] <robert1971> natrium: I like it !!!
[23:09] <robert1971> Out of interest natrium what did you use for your temp sensors on your payload?
[23:10] <robert1971> LM35's?
[23:11] <natrium> Temperature sensor: Texas Instruments TMP123AIDBVT
[23:11] <natrium> Pressure sensor: Honeywell ASDX015A24R
[23:12] <natrium> temp sensor used SPI
[23:19] <robert1971> Ahh SPI You can use that for writing to SD cards I gather
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[23:19] <robert1971> Hi edmoore wondered where you were
[23:19] <natrium> yah
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[23:20] <robert1971> He came... he went...
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[23:22] <robert1971> What would be really cool would be to get the avr to log all the data to sd card and then do away with the gumstix all together. No tux in space :)
[23:23] <natrium> sure, it's quite easy to hook up SD card to AVR
[23:23] <robert1971> Ping edmoore... Got the DS1821 working... How did you get on with your PCB stuff
[23:23] <robert1971> natrium: I'll have a read... I guess I'm googling AVR SD SPI
[23:25] <natrium> avrlib should have it
[23:25] <robert1971> woof!!! This would be perfect http://www.compsys1.com/html/avr_sd_dev_board.html
[23:26] <natrium> robert1971, might as well use microSD
[23:26] <robert1971> Good point. I can't see that I'm going to log more than a meg
[23:27] <robert1971> Perhaps 2 at most
[23:27] <natrium> look at SFE MicroDrive
[23:27] <Laurenceb> hello
[23:27] <Laurenceb> looking at fat on sd?
[23:27] <Laurenceb> with an avr
[23:28] <natrium> haha, sparkfun released a board that could be used for a payload
[23:28] <natrium> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8627
[23:28] <natrium> just add GSM module and you're set
[23:29] <natrium> uh, and GPS
[23:29] <Laurenceb> erm that kind of defeats the object :P
[23:30] <natrium> yeah, still cool though :P
[23:33] <natrium> robert1971, add a compass too!!!
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[23:37] <robert1971> I'm not sure it does defeat the object. I need one of those with an avr chip :)
[23:38] <robert1971> How portable is avr-gcc code :)
[23:38] <robert1971> is there arm-gcc?
[23:39] <akawaka> its portable
[23:39] <natrium> yes, there is, but the way to do low-level stuff is different
[23:40] <akawaka> as long as you don't make assumptions about the size of types
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[23:41] <robert1971> I'll look at that board for ICARUS II
[23:42] <robert1971> I won a helium cylinder trolly on ebay at the w/e for 65 quid. So I hope to get my helium next week
[23:44] <robert1971> Time to pen that letter to CAA soon for a NOTAM
[23:52] <robert1971> 10 to midnight time for night night
[23:53] <robert1971> natrium: thanks for the chat tonight
[23:53] <natrium> g'nite robert1971
[23:53] <robert1971> SpeedEvil: Thanks for the ideas and everyone else have a good evening, morning or night
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[00:00] --- Thu Aug 28 2008