highaltitude.log.20080804

[00:06] <akawaka> http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/WH08018.xml&headline=White%20House%20Briefed%20On%20Potential%20For%20Mars%20Life&channel=space
[00:54] <Laurenceb> v interesting http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=THRjJABJoFg
[00:54] <Laurenceb> looks like it was oscillating
[01:07] <Laurenceb> I'm off, cya all
[01:08] Laurenceb (n=Laurence@host86-133-69-206.range86-133.btcentralplus.com) left irc:
[02:12] phatmonkey (n=ben@scooby.firshman.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[02:13] <natrium42> hi phatmonkey
[02:13] <phatmonkey> hey
[02:14] <phatmonkey> i'm just about to go to sleep, is it quick?
[02:14] <natrium42> eh?
[02:16] <phatmonkey> did you want anything in particular?
[02:17] <natrium42> nope, just saying hi
[02:17] <natrium42> :)
[02:17] <phatmonkey> hi! :D
[02:17] <phatmonkey> ... and night
[02:17] <natrium42> nite
[02:19] phatmonkey (n=ben@scooby.firshman.co.uk) left irc:
[02:54] akawaka (n=akawaka@external.treyarch.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[03:12] <natrium42> hmm, twitter is very easy to integrate
[03:23] mib_vyzkwt (i=48881271@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-62ab8a6eb81e3512) joined #highaltitude.
[03:23] mib_vyzkwt (i=48881271@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-62ab8a6eb81e3512) left irc: Client Quit
[03:23] mib_tr9ner (i=48881271@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-839b99b84c4abd91) joined #highaltitude.
[03:23] mib_tr9ner (i=48881271@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-839b99b84c4abd91) left #highaltitude.
[03:23] mib_dj41w8 (i=48881271@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-28f7b8ce6c369f56) joined #highaltitude.
[03:24] mib_dj41w8 (i=48881271@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-28f7b8ce6c369f56) left irc: Client Quit
[07:13] borism (n=boris@194.126.108.2) joined #highaltitude.
[07:49] Ebola (n=Ebola@unaffiliated/ebola) joined #highaltitude.
[07:50] Simon-MPFH (n=simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[08:04] Ebola (n=Ebola@unaffiliated/ebola) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[08:04] edmoore (n=edmoore@66.122-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) joined #highaltitude.
[08:31] icez (n=icez@ip68-98-34-247.ph.ph.cox.net) left irc: "Lost terminal"
[08:33] edmoore_ (n=edmoore@66.122-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) joined #highaltitude.
[08:33] edmoore (n=edmoore@66.122-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[08:54] edmoore_ (n=edmoore@66.122-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
[08:54] akawaka (n=akawaka@cpe-76-173-152-142.socal.res.rr.com) joined #highaltitude.
[09:00] edmoore (n=edmoore@smtp.vorticity-systems.com) joined #highaltitude.
[09:03] Ebola (n=Ebola@unaffiliated/ebola) joined #highaltitude.
[09:17] wickerwaka (n=akawaka@cpe-76-173-152-142.socal.res.rr.com) joined #highaltitude.
[09:32] akawaka (n=akawaka@cpe-76-173-152-142.socal.res.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[09:37] wickerwaka (n=akawaka@cpe-76-173-152-142.socal.res.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[10:31] Andreas__ (n=Ebola@149.254.192.192) joined #highaltitude.
[10:31] edmoore (n=edmoore@smtp.vorticity-systems.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[10:32] edmoore (n=edmoore@smtp.vorticity-systems.com) joined #highaltitude.
[10:34] edmoore (n=edmoore@smtp.vorticity-systems.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[10:35] edmoore (n=edmoore@smtp.vorticity-systems.com) joined #highaltitude.
[10:35] edmoore (n=edmoore@smtp.vorticity-systems.com) left irc: Client Quit
[10:37] Andreas__ (n=Ebola@149.254.192.192) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[10:37] Andreas__ (n=Ebola@149.254.192.192) joined #highaltitude.
[10:38] Ebola (n=Ebola@unaffiliated/ebola) left irc: Nick collision from services.
[10:38] Nick change: Andreas__ -> Ebola
[10:49] edmoore (n=edmoore@smtp.vorticity-systems.com) joined #highaltitude.
[10:54] Ebola (n=Ebola@unaffiliated/ebola) left irc: "bastard t-mobile"
[11:12] Ebola (n=Ebola@unaffiliated/ebola) joined #highaltitude.
[11:17] Ei5GTB_ (n=Paul@78.16.3.163) joined #highaltitude.
[11:34] EI5GTB (n=Paul@78.16.239.5) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[11:42] Ebola (n=Ebola@unaffiliated/ebola) left irc: "fucking t-mobile and their fucking dns problems"
[12:08] fnoble_ (n=fnoblef@88-106-248-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) joined #highaltitude.
[12:09] Ebola (n=Ebola@unaffiliated/ebola) joined #highaltitude.
[12:43] fnoble_ (n=fnoblef@88-106-248-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
[12:52] <Ei5GTB_> morning guys
[12:54] Nick change: Ei5GTB_ -> EI5GTB
[12:59] <edmoore> EI5GTB: afternoon
[12:59] <EI5GTB> hai
[12:59] <EI5GTB> hows things today?
[13:02] <edmoore> not bad, working on some design stuff at work, and half making a list of things to install on my new machine
[13:04] <edmoore> you?
[13:04] <EI5GTB> emm....as usual, trying in vain to learn how to program this dam avr :P
[13:06] <edmoore> it's the best learning curve.
[13:06] <edmoore> How're you getting on?
[13:06] <EI5GTB> not very well
[13:06] borism (n=boris@194.126.108.2) left irc: Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)
[13:06] <EI5GTB> im trying to output the contents of an int var to 8 pins on the avr in binary format, so i can view the binary of the int on leds
[13:07] <EI5GTB> i went in to ask in the c channel best ways of doing that yesterday, and ended up arguing with some dick about my spelling
[13:08] <gordonjcp> EI5GTB: write the value directly to the port
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> #edev, ##electronics
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> ##avr
[13:08] <gordonjcp> EI5GTB: you're a bit stuffed if you're using something like an Arduino, where no port has eight lines brought out without something else using them
[13:08] <EI5GTB> but theres not enough pins on one port
[13:09] <gordonjcp> EI5GTB: aha, then write it out to *two* ports
[13:09] <EI5GTB> oh, as simple as that?
[13:09] <gordonjcp> yup
[13:09] <gordonjcp> ... make sure you shift and mask the "unwanted" bits
[13:09] <EI5GTB> emm
[13:09] <edmoore> gordonjcp: don't ask about embedded stuff on a c channel
[13:09] <edmoore> it's all alient to them
[13:09] <EI5GTB> well, at the minute its a 10 bit var....so im dividing it by 4
[13:09] <edmoore> alien*
[13:10] <gordonjcp> say you want to output the six lowest bits to A but leave PA0 and PA1 alone you'd say something like "PA = (val & 0x3f) << 2"
[13:10] <gordonjcp> or *something* like that
[13:10] <gordonjcp> I haven't got my C brain connected today
[13:10] <EI5GTB> well, i dont have a C brain :P
[13:11] <EI5GTB> i'm still convinced a good book would help allo
[13:11] <EI5GTB> t
[13:11] <edmoore> if I wanted to print 10 bits on pins, i would do it like this
[13:11] <edmoore> say you've got port a and port b, and assume they're next to each other
[13:11] <EI5GTB> yu
[13:11] <EI5GTB> p
[13:11] <edmoore> write foo (the 10 bit int) to port A
[13:12] <edmoore> port a is 8 pins and will display the lower 8 bits
[13:12] <edmoore> with me?
[13:12] <edmoore> because the remaining upper 2 bits are too big for it. it'll just lob them off
[13:13] <edmoore> oh, this assumes the port pins are aligned like this: B7-B0:A7-A0
[13:14] <edmoore> so say the number you wanted to display was 1111111111, you would currently be seeing this: 0000000011111111
[13:14] <EI5GTB> but each port has 5 pins, not 8
[13:15] <edmoore> because you've not yet written anything to portB (the left (upper) 8 bits)
[13:15] <edmoore> oh ok
[13:15] <edmoore> well no worries, principle is exactly the same
[13:15] <EI5GTB> yea
[13:15] <edmoore> you can currently see this, then: 0000011111
[13:15] <edmoore> B4-B0:A4-A0
[13:16] <EI5GTB> so i need to write it all to the secons port, but starting at the 6th buit
[13:16] <SpeedEvil> yes
[13:16] <edmoore> 6th from the bottom, yes. And you do that by shifting
[13:16] <edmoore> so portb = foo >> 5
[13:16] <edmoore> which shifts foo 5 to the right
[13:17] <EI5GTB> aha
[13:17] <edmoore> it just throws the bottom bits off the end
[13:17] <EI5GTB> well....when you put it all that way it seems very easy..
[13:17] <edmoore> I was in your shoes and it was all witchcraft, don't worry
[13:18] <edmoore> but it gets easier the more you do and the more you realise how to think in embedded
[13:18] <edmoore> I talk like I know what I'm doing, I really don't, but it's enough to let me do stuff as I need to do it
[13:18] <EI5GTB> yea, its like im driving a cart, but it has no 1, 2 or 3rd gear... youv to take of in 4th and wiork your way up to 6th, its just hard to start:p
[13:20] <EI5GTB> im soo easily distracted too !! the blisters on my fingers seem alot more interesting then the datasheet right now :P
[13:20] <SpeedEvil> And the clutch may explode in fragments occasionally if you over-rev it.
[13:20] <EI5GTB> ye, exactly
[13:20] <EI5GTB> kionda like my quadbike =.
[13:20] <EI5GTB> =/
[13:23] <EI5GTB> for the variable that comes offa my ADC i just declare that as an INT?
[13:23] <SpeedEvil> I recall it reads from the ADC as 2 8 bit registers
[13:23] <EI5GTB> yea
[13:24] <EI5GTB> you have to do somthing weird to get 10bit
[13:24] <SpeedEvil> There may be various names - you for example don't want to use an int if that's 32 bits.
[13:24] <SpeedEvil> a short may be 16 bits
[13:24] <EI5GTB> well, 10bits is all i need
[13:24] <SpeedEvil> you won't get 10 bits.
[13:24] <EI5GTB> ok, so a short will do?
[13:24] <SpeedEvil> dealing with split structures on small micros is horribly complex.
[13:25] <SpeedEvil> your compiler may have ints as 16 bits, i don't know.
[13:29] <EI5GTB> hmm
[13:29] <EI5GTB> does it matter if it is a 16 bit?
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> what do you mean?
[13:30] robert1971_ (n=rharriso@gateway.hgf.com) joined #highaltitude.
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> The processor is 8 bits
[13:30] <EI5GTB> like....will it ballz it up having unused bits? or can i just shift past them
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> Consider dealing longhand with 2 digit numbers.
[13:31] <EI5GTB> ..?
[13:31] <SpeedEvil> This is a '16 bit' number as far as the CPU is concerned.
[13:31] <EI5GTB> oh, ok
[13:31] <SpeedEvil> Now, consider teh extra work you need to do for 4 digits - 32 bits
[13:31] <SpeedEvil> You don't however have to do anything special if your numbers only go 0-3
[13:32] <EI5GTB> ok, ok
[13:32] <EI5GTB> i just thought, if it was lets say a 10 bit int, containing an 8 bit number, it would have spare 0s, like, gah, i dont know what im on about anymore
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> It does.
[13:33] <EI5GTB> oh, ok
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> But eliminating them means that as you can only read a 8 bit quantity at any one time that - for example
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> bits 0-2 in a byte might be variable a, bits 3-7 might be variable b.
[13:34] <EI5GTB> aha
[13:34] <SpeedEvil> This means that to access variable b, you need to read two 8 bit locations in memory and do shifts and stuff
[13:34] <SpeedEvil> this is - usually - not worth it, as you will take lots more code and time to handle it.
[13:34] <EI5GTB> i see
[13:34] <SpeedEvil> In some circumstances it can be worthwhile.
[13:34] <EI5GTB> and alot more brainpower, hich i dont have :P
[13:36] <EI5GTB> gah, ill figure it all oiut eventually
[13:37] <EI5GTB> but now iv to go get these stiches out, gluck
[13:53] <edmoore> SpeedEvil makes a good point. An 8-bit CPU does all its maths and with 8bit chunks. So if you can make stuff bytes, it's much faster. However for a balloon flight computer you can't really, but also it doesn't matter if the cpu spends time dealing with large numbers - it's not an application which requires speed
[13:53] <edmoore> so like you'll have double precision floats for latitude and longitude, for example
[13:54] <edmoore> they take, for a fixed point CPU, an age, comparatively, to do stuff with (multiplies, divides) - hundreds to thousand of cycles. But it's ok, youve got the time.
[13:54] <edmoore> it's when things start getting tough that you need to start worrying
[13:54] <edmoore> as a rule, multiplies are much faster than divides
[14:01] <robert1971_> Hi all
[14:01] <robert1971_> Left myself logged in on the other computer :)
[14:03] Ebola (n=Ebola@unaffiliated/ebola) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[14:04] Ebola (n=Ebola@unaffiliated/ebola) joined #highaltitude.
[14:07] <robert1971_> I want to get the ATmega32 to take 3 pictures and shoot 60secs of video every 5 mins as well as monitor 3 temp sensors and a barometer. Should I use interrupts for monitoring the sensors say once every 60 seconds and then use the main loop to take the pictures and video with a delay of ~4.5 mins in the main loop?
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> In that case it doesn't really matter.
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> Whichever makes the code easier.
[14:13] <EI5GTB> edmoore, ah, i see, well, im more worried about getting my programssm workinh, ill worry about sped when i donerstand wtf im doing ;P:
[14:15] <EI5GTB> right, time to wire up this avr.. and get ready to stick the program on it
[14:16] <edmoore> robert1971: you can do it that way, better would be to put it to sleep
[14:16] <edmoore> and wake up on a timer
[14:17] <edmoore> 'delay(somenumber)' is a bit yuck has the processing is running full speed
[14:17] <edmoore> processor*
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> Do you care though
[14:17] <edmoore> full speed doing nothing, whereas sleep will make the avr use almost no power, but will keep the timer on interrupt powered, and that will wake the cpu up when there's something to do
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> over the time of a balloon flight, it isn't going to actually use measurable power
[14:18] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: on a balloon, power is useful. If you can lop off 10mA, that's potentially a 25% power saving
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: you're really going to fly with a 120mAh battery?
[14:18] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: take it from someone who's actually done this - for that time when you can't find the bugger- your car breaks down or the radio signal is reflecting off god know what, those extra few hours help
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: I was assuming you'd turn off this micro when it hit the ground.
[14:19] <edmoore> bad assumption.
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> If this is also the send stuff over radio micro, then yes.
[14:19] <edmoore> extractly - killing the radio is a bad idea
[14:19] <edmoore> you always want it doing something
[14:20] <edmoore> just 1hz pulsing if it's not actually sending a telemetry packet. makes it so much easier to find in the sky
[14:20] <edmoore> ...and on the ground
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> If you've got a 4.5 min sleep in there, it's not going to be transmitting :)
[14:23] <edmoore> no, but you sleep between 'anything' calls
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> Sleeping between timer interrupts works well.
[14:24] <edmoore> and 'anything' is sufficiently rare on a balloon (even 1hz pulsing) to make sleep worthwhile
[14:32] fergusnoble (n=fergusno@88-106-248-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
[14:33] <robert1971_> Sounds good so I need to set an intrrupt to kick off every 5 mins. Can you set a timer for that long on a 16MHz board?
[14:33] <robert1971_> I could even sleep for 30 second of video :-)
[14:34] <robert1971_> I have to calc the offsets
[14:37] <edmoore> robert1971: have you read the timer tutorial in the avr-tuorials forum of avrfreaks.net?
[14:37] <edmoore> I seem to remember a very nice explanation on using the timers, including multipliers and the like for timing long times
[14:38] <edmoore> it's written by someone called something like abcminiuser
[14:38] <edmoore> 's very good
[14:39] <robert1971_> On my way there
[14:39] <edmoore> when I read that a whole bunch of stuff clicked for me
[14:50] borism (n=boris@195-50-207-47-dsl.krw.estpak.ee) joined #highaltitude.
[14:56] <robert1971_> edmoore: Great pointer there is a gold mine of information there!!!
[14:57] <edmoore> there really is - his whole serious of tutorials are top calss
[14:57] <edmoore> and the website itself is the avr centre of the known universe
[15:16] <EI5GTB> what vaklue of resistor should i used for an led? 50 ohm?
[15:17] <edmoore> Ohms law - R = V/I
[15:18] <EI5GTB> i tried that ,but didnt know how much current an led draws :P
[15:18] Action: EI5GTB goes to look it up
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> 20mA typ
[15:18] <edmoore> 30mA is a usual number
[15:18] <EI5GTB> aha.
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> 20mA will with any LED be easily visible. With some of the ultrabright sorts it'll be very visible.
[15:18] <EI5GTB> ok, well, at 5v i get 166 ohm
[15:19] <edmoore> what V is the LED?
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> (5v-vLED)/I = R
[15:19] <EI5GTB> prolly a 3v one
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> 3V is probably blue or white
[15:19] <EI5GTB> XD i paused while looking for the v button on my calc !
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> 2V/.02 = 100 ohms.
[15:20] <EI5GTB> yea, bout that then
[15:20] <EI5GTB> 100 it is
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> Also take care not to exceed the global max output of the AVR.
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> Plus, if tyou want battery life, that eats into it in a big way.
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> You might want to use 5mA
[15:20] <EI5GTB> naw, this is just a quick experiment, nothing serious
[15:21] <EI5GTB> to display binary on leds :P
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> 20*8 = 160mA
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> I think this is over the max supply current of 40? mA.
[15:29] <EI5GTB> emm, the avr wont actually power em all?
[15:29] <EI5GTB> ill have to use rtansistors?
[15:33] <EI5GTB> or just use 400 ohm resistors... ok
[15:42] <gordonjcp> for a 5V supply 100 ohm resistors should give you usable brightness without stupidly high current draw
[15:51] <EI5GTB> eh, i have 320s in now
[15:51] <EI5GTB> i was worried about the max current of the avr
[15:51] <EI5GTB> http://paulsnet.org/bb1.jpg
[15:51] <EI5GTB> just need to write the app now :P
[15:51] <EI5GTB> well, i have it almost written
[15:56] <EI5GTB> http://pastebin.com/m63e36496
[15:56] <EI5GTB> would that make sence?
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> gordonjcp: 160mA will be over the max current of the AVR
[16:08] <gordonjcp> hmm
[16:08] <gordonjcp> yeah
[16:15] <EI5GTB> wqell, it kinda works
[16:15] <EI5GTB> it randomly flickers binary from time to time
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> you're reading the output of the ADC to the LEDs?
[16:16] <EI5GTB> yup
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> 10000000 and 01111111 are very different in binary, but may be almost the same voltage
[16:17] <EI5GTB> its now saying 11100110
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> so binary does flicker lots and lots unless you happen to be in the middle of the voltage range and noiseless
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> how are you setting the input volts?
[16:18] <EI5GTB> with a resistor
[16:18] <EI5GTB> but it will only seem to stay at 5v
[16:18] <EI5GTB> i cant get it to vary
[16:18] <SpeedEvil> a variable resistor?
[16:18] <SpeedEvil> Are you sure you've set the pin to an input ADC pin, and disabled the ouytput on that pin?
[16:19] <EI5GTB> but from time to tome wen i tip the probe of my miltimeter here and there it shows binary, and just stays there
[16:19] <EI5GTB> http://pastebin.com/m63e36496
[16:19] <EI5GTB> thats the code
[16:19] <EI5GTB> the pin is defo set...donno about diabling the output tho..
[16:19] <SpeedEvil> Sorry, don't do AVR.
[16:20] <EI5GTB> ah.. ok
[16:21] <EI5GTB> ill figure it out eventually :P
[16:21] <edmoore> EI5GTB: #avr
[16:21] <edmoore> or #micrcontrollers
[16:21] <EI5GTB> ill try #avr
[16:23] <EI5GTB> i might make it flash an led at the same time, just so im sure all is working..
[16:24] <EI5GTB> mabye the code has frozen or somthing
[16:30] <EI5GTB> hmm, just noticed, in my compile window it says atmega128, whereas im on the atmega8....that could be a problem
[16:37] jcoxon (n=jcoxon@host86-144-99-26.range86-144.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[16:37] <jcoxon> afternoon all
[16:38] <SpeedEvil> Afternoon.
[16:55] <robert1971_> Afternoon
[16:57] <EI5GTB> aha, i realised while eating lucnh, that i never brought my 10bit down to a 8 bit
[16:57] <EI5GTB> time to try agaqin
[16:57] <EI5GTB> hai
[17:00] <robert1971_> I'm off to Farnels need to order another 3 quids worth of stuff to do a creadit card order. Any thoughts on some cheap must haves from the electrical store?
[17:05] <robert1971_> Is a flux pena good buy?
[17:12] <gordonjcp> robert1971_: something random and fun
[17:12] <gordonjcp> robert1971_: something you'd never normally buy, just to play with
[17:13] <gordonjcp> like maybe some odd but usefulish chip
[17:13] <jcoxon> ooooo usb-serial covertor chip
[17:13] <jcoxon> or a max232
[17:13] <jcoxon> of some 5v or 3.3v regulartors
[17:13] <jcoxon> regulators
[17:17] <gordonjcp> I was thinking more like a microcontroller of some sort or maybe some sort of funny programmable chip like that
[17:22] <EI5GTB> robert1971, loads of 3.3 5 and 12v regulators
[17:22] <EI5GTB> iv been looking for em all month on the workshop here
[17:24] Ebola (n=Ebola@unaffiliated/ebola) left irc: "Packing up time"
[17:25] <EI5GTB> any ideas here? the avr chip is reading from the adc now...but only when i power the chip through a resistor...?
[17:25] <EI5GTB> like a 330 ohm
[17:28] fergusnoble (n=fergusno@82-71-15-97.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[17:36] <robert1971_> Oh thanks for that. I need some regulators.
[17:37] akawaka (n=akawaka@cpe-76-173-152-142.socal.res.rr.com) joined #highaltitude.
[17:38] <edmoore> EI5GTB: elaborate
[17:38] <edmoore> what is input into the adc?
[17:41] edmoore (n=edmoore@smtp.vorticity-systems.com) left irc:
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: I found a nice cheap FET
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1463245
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> 10p for 42A 100V
[17:44] <fergusnoble> hello
[17:46] Hiena (n=Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) joined #highaltitude.
[17:46] <Hiena> ' evening!
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: also they've got teh tail-end of ROHS stuff reduced.
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> Wire at about 1/3 price
[17:53] <robert1971_> Off home chat later ... Thanks SpeedEvil
[17:53] robert1971_ (n=rharriso@gateway.hgf.com) left irc:
[17:55] <EI5GTB> zomg, i asploded my avr chip... and got a new one, and the code works perfect :0
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> :)
[18:06] <gordonjcp> EI5GTB: heh
[18:06] natrium42 (n=alexei@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[18:08] natrium42 (n=alexei@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:16] edmoore (n=edmoore@66.122-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:38] <edmoore> fergusnoble: hi
[18:38] <fergusnoble> hi ed
[18:38] <edmoore> all well? had a play with the dsk?
[18:39] <edmoore> ok ok?
[18:39] <edmoore> ye or ney?
[18:39] <edmoore> sdk, I meant to say
[18:39] <fergusnoble> erm yes a bit
[18:39] <fergusnoble> its quite nice to use in some ways
[18:39] <edmoore> it's been a long day
[18:39] <edmoore> and now I will abandon my attempt to rhyme everything I say on irc
[18:39] <fergusnoble> but only if you dont try and bend the rules
[18:40] <fergusnoble> like it doesnt really like me making a commandline program that accesses the gps api
[18:40] <fergusnoble> you need to use the gps api from within an application class
[18:41] <fergusnoble> but there is only one type of application class which is graphical and wont run in the background
[18:41] <fergusnoble> am investigating a way of allowing it to continue running in the background
[18:41] <edmoore> sure, makes sense for them I suppose
[19:12] <jcoxon> hey edmoore and fergusnoble
[19:12] <fergusnoble> hello
[19:15] <jcoxon> edmoore, have you seen natrium42's update to the tracker
[19:15] <jcoxon> ?
[19:15] akawak1 (n=akawaka@external.treyarch.com) joined #highaltitude.
[19:16] jatkins (n=jatkins@79-70-248-35.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) joined #highaltitude.
[19:16] <jatkins> hi all
[19:16] <jcoxon> hey jatkins
[19:16] <jatkins> just spent the day at sstl
[19:16] <jatkins> with mc-
[19:16] <edmoore> jcoxon: last night's?
[19:16] <jcoxon> its even better...
[19:16] <edmoore> jatkins: oh cool - tell
[19:17] <jatkins> thanks
[19:17] <jatkins> basically seeing round their clean rooms and stuff
[19:17] <jatkins> saw the DHC sat they're building for Spain
[19:17] borism_ (n=boris@195-50-201-88-dsl.krw.estpak.ee) joined #highaltitude.
[19:17] <jatkins> DMC*
[19:17] <edmoore> haha, that's bloody brilliant natrium42
[19:17] <jcoxon> try the mibbit chat
[19:17] <jcoxon> soo cool
[19:18] <edmoore> and the speedometer for car and baloon
[19:18] <edmoore> oh my god I can't wait
[19:18] <edmoore> it'll be more exciting to be watching the thing on the internet
[19:18] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:19] <akawak1> url?
[19:19] akawaka (n=akawaka@cpe-76-173-152-142.socal.res.rr.com) left irc: Nick collision from services.
[19:19] Nick change: akawak1 -> akawaka
[19:19] <jcoxon> www.natrium42.com/tracker
[19:20] wickerwaka (n=akawaka@cpe-76-173-152-142.socal.res.rr.com) joined #highaltitude.
[19:20] <jcoxon> that said its best to just log in to #highaltitude99 instead to reduce the load on the site if you want to chat
[19:20] <jatkins> if I'm not interrupting, I had an idea about gps vs. 3-axis accelerometers
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> Nope.
[19:20] <edmoore> haha jatkins carry on
[19:20] <jatkins> basically
[19:20] <jatkins> :)
[19:20] <jatkins> I was wondering whether we could eliminate the need for gps
[19:21] borism (n=boris@195-50-207-47-dsl.krw.estpak.ee) left irc: Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)
[19:21] <jatkins> so knowing the long./lat. coords of the launch site
[19:21] <jatkins> and a high-response 3-axis accelerometer
[19:21] Action: edmoore prepars his talk on noise
[19:21] <jatkins> lol
[19:21] <jatkins> couldn't we just do the maths and work it out?
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> accellerometers aren't teh wonder you might think.
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> They are (broadly) only useful for telling instantaenous 'down'.
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> (at least at the single digit pound level)
[19:21] <jatkins> i.e the velocity equation
[19:21] <edmoore> jatkins: in theory you're entirely correct
[19:22] <edmoore> but all sensors have noise
[19:22] <jatkins> ok
[19:22] <edmoore> every measurement process introduces an element of noise - random stuff that isn't part of the actual signal - into the process
[19:22] <jatkins> I guess a standard roll/pitch/yaw sensor uses the doppler effect
[19:22] <jatkins> or something else?
[19:23] <edmoore> gyroscopes use coriolis
[19:23] <edmoore> accelerometers are different
[19:23] <jatkins> ok
[19:23] <edmoore> they 'float' a tiny bit of silicon using electrostatics
[19:23] <jatkins> ok
[19:23] <jcoxon> and each time you introduce noise you get further and further away from teh correct answer
[19:23] <robert1971> Back at home now
[19:23] <jatkins> ah
[19:23] <robert1971> That tracker looks good
[19:23] <jatkins> oh*
[19:23] <SpeedEvil> The noise of current (cheap) accelerometers is 1 milligee or so.
[19:24] <edmoore> they have a little control loop which tries to keep that bit of silicon floating in a central position
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> This is 1cm/s^2
[19:24] <jatkins> ok
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> Or after 2 minutes, it's off by 1m/s, and out by 60m
[19:24] <edmoore> now imagine putting a bowling ball in the boot of your car, then driving forward
[19:24] <jatkins> oh
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> After 20 minutes, it's off by 10m/s and 6Km
[19:24] <jatkins> a milligee is 9.81 / 1000 ?
[19:24] <edmoore> the inertia of the ball will make it resist the forward motion of the car, and it'll appear to roll backwards in your boot
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: yes
[19:24] <jatkins> ok
[19:25] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[19:25] <SpeedEvil> You can get ones that are a couple of orders of magnitude more accurate, for a couple of orders of magnitude more money.
[19:25] <jatkins> lol
[19:25] <SpeedEvil> But in principle, GPS is so much better.
[19:25] <edmoore> so it's the same with an accelerometer - if you accelerate, the little bit of silicon tries to move in the opposite direction, and the control loop has to work harder to keep it floating in the middle
[19:25] <jatkins> ok
[19:25] <SpeedEvil> in practice I mean
[19:25] <jatkins> but don't accelerometers just use the air?
[19:25] <jatkins> particles
[19:25] <jatkins> and their movement?
[19:25] <edmoore> so the output of an accelerometer is linked to how hard it has to work to keep that little bit of silicon - the 'proof mass' - in the middle
[19:26] <jatkins> when a singlals passed through it
[19:26] <jatkins> signal*
[19:26] <jatkins> ok
[19:26] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: no, they have no connetion with the outside air.
[19:26] <edmoore> jatkins: have a quick read through my last 5 or so posts - that's how accelerometers work
[19:26] <jatkins> ok
[19:26] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: you may be thinking of airspeed meters.
[19:26] <jatkins> yeah
[19:26] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: or there is a wacky gas dynamics based one which behaves similarly to the silicon one in practice
[19:27] <jatkins> that's velocity relative to the wind speed?
[19:27] <edmoore> but anyway, to work out your position you have to integrate twice - like we discussed because you need to get from an acceleration - m/s^2 to a position - m
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: yes - airspeed meter
[19:27] <jatkins> ok
[19:27] <edmoore> and every time you integrate, you add up all the noise you get from each measurement of acceleration
[19:27] <edmoore> so before too long, you are way out
[19:27] <jatkins> so you could end up like the Soyuz :)
[19:27] <edmoore> gps on the other hand has feedback - it can correct its errors
[19:27] <edmoore> jatkins: exactly
[19:27] <jatkins> yeah
[19:28] <edmoore> jatkins: so actually you are being more sensible than you thinki - gps, as you know, only comes out once a second
[19:28] <jatkins> yeah
[19:28] <edmoore> that's useless say, on a missile, which neeeds very precise control constantly
[19:28] <jatkins> yeah
[19:28] <jatkins> SpaceX use GPSs on Falcon 1 though?
[19:28] <edmoore> so they use accelerometers and gyroscopes to give the position, but correct the drift of the accelerometers every so often when they get gps
[19:29] <jatkins> not that that works though :)
[19:29] <jatkins> yet*
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> Accelerometers are brilliant for real-time position.
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> Sub-second changes of position are hard to do with GPS, and trivial with accels.
[19:29] <edmoore> most systems that are 'highly dynamic' - fast moving and unstable, like rockets, will use GPS and 'intertial' (sensors based on inertia - accelerometers and gyroscopes) systems together
[19:29] <jatkins> yeah
[19:29] <jatkins> ok
[19:30] <jatkins> intertial guidance system
[19:30] <jatkins> oh
[19:30] <SpeedEvil> cheap gyros are actually almost 'good enough'
[19:30] <jatkins> Falcon 1 has that too
[19:30] <jatkins> otherwise it really wouldn't work
[19:30] <jatkins> ok
[19:30] <SpeedEvil> a degree or two a minute.
[19:30] <edmoore> now, you've just taken the discussion into masters-level signal processing, which ain't half bad for someone who hasn't done GCSE yet
[19:30] <jatkins> lol
[19:30] <jatkins> inertial*
[19:30] <jatkins> oh
[19:31] <jatkins> so by real-time
[19:31] <jatkins> SpeedEvil:
[19:31] <jatkins> you mean just short position
[19:31] <jatkins> movement measuirng
[19:31] <jatkins> measuring*
[19:31] <edmoore> but yes - you can use the best bits of both inertial sensors (fast response, but drifts) and gps (slow response, but doesn't drift) and combine the best bits of both
[19:31] <jatkins> oh cool
[19:31] <jatkins> and very high update gps to start with
[19:31] <edmoore> it's called 'complementary filtering'
[19:31] <jatkins> cool
[19:31] <edmoore> because the different types of sensors compliment each other
[19:31] <jatkins> yeah
[19:31] <edmoore> if you see what I mean
[19:31] <jatkins> yep
[19:32] <jatkins> is that >= 99.9+ % accurate?
[19:32] <jatkins> a proper combination
[19:32] <jatkins> Ruski-style
[19:32] <edmoore> it depends, but it's about as accurate as you can get
[19:32] <jatkins> ok
[19:32] <jatkins> Russian*
[19:33] <jatkins> I guess on ICBMs they get it a lot more accurate
[19:33] <jatkins> ...hopefully
[19:33] <edmoore> you can prove certain kinds of complimentary filter to be 'optimum' - the kalman filter, for example, is optimal within a fairly braod (but linear) set of assumptions. But really we're shooting off into nasty maths terriotry
[19:34] <jatkins> ok
[19:34] <jatkins> do you add star tracker to the filter list once you're in orbit/space
[19:34] <jatkins> on a rocket
[19:34] <jatkins> unfortunately balloons don't quite cut it
[19:34] <jatkins> :(
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> Where it gets really scary.
[19:35] <edmoore> jatkins: correct - there is no gps, so a star tracker provides your 'absolute' position
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> Is if you're trying to work out if a sensor has failed.
[19:35] <edmoore> the slow but drift-free bit
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: absolute orientation
[19:35] <jatkins> yeah
[19:35] kamaji (n=kamaji@handtomouse.demon.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[19:35] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: yes quite right
[19:35] <jatkins> ICBMs can use gps-like systems?
[19:35] <edmoore> yep
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: well - position too - but only if not in the solar system :)
[19:35] <jatkins> because they're ballistic?
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> yes
[19:35] <jatkins> ok
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> well - no, anyone can use GPS that can recieve the sigal.
[19:36] <jatkins> ok
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> You can pick it up on the moon with a modest dish - 1.2m IIRC
[19:36] <jatkins> even after a TLI burn?
[19:36] <jatkins> wow
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> The postional accuracy suffers a fair bit.
[19:36] <jatkins> lol
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> And a stock GPS won't give you a position, as its filters will be all confused.
[19:36] <jatkins> they just need to set up a sat constellation in lunar orbit
[19:36] <edmoore> haha, i imagine. Given pdop is a function of geometry, the moon might be pushing it
[19:37] <jatkins> lunometry that could be :D
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: it's not _that_ bad - compared to some other positional methods.
[19:37] <jatkins> you only need 6 sats around the moon
[19:37] <jatkins> it's 6x smaller than earth
[19:37] <jatkins> so 32 gps sats / 6
[19:37] <jatkins> = 5.3
[19:38] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: combined with time to earth you get distance to earth to a meter or two.
[19:38] <jatkins> 5.33333333*
[19:38] <jatkins> and that's where SSTL and they're small satellites come in
[19:38] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: that's really quite impressive
[19:38] <jatkins> I'm sure they can russle up a third of a satellite
[19:38] <jatkins> SpeedEvil: again, wow
[19:38] Action: SpeedEvil has prototype star-tracker hardware somewhere.
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> Just the agile mount.
[19:39] <edmoore> I think henry was looking at making a star tracker for his masters
[19:40] <edmoore> would be pretty cool
[19:40] <jatkins> cool
[19:40] <edmoore> maybe it could go on our sattelite
[19:40] <jatkins> ask Jim Lovell
[19:40] <SpeedEvil> DOP is greatly helped by the 20000Km dia orbit.
[19:40] <jatkins> he finds star tracking fun
[19:40] <jatkins> edmoore: n-prize sat?
[19:40] <edmoore> yeah. I was slightly joking. we can't put a star tracker on a 20g sat
[19:41] <edmoore> if we can even make a 20g sat
[19:41] <jatkins> yeah
[19:41] <edmoore> if we can even make a 20g sat launch vehicle
[19:41] <jatkins> it's possible
[19:41] <SpeedEvil> I was wanting TIs intensified CCD series.
[19:41] <jatkins> lol
[19:41] <SpeedEvil> For the star-tracker.
[19:41] <jatkins> that's not the problem ... it's the sat that's hard
[19:41] <SpeedEvil> But they don't really want to sell them.
[19:41] <jatkins> ask Boeing for a slice of a delta iv
[19:41] <jatkins> just a tiny little bit
[19:41] <SpeedEvil> The lauch vehicle in some ways is harder.
[19:41] <jatkins> why
[19:42] <jatkins> you have a 1k budget
[19:42] <jatkins> 1 grand*
[19:42] <jatkins> (same thing)
[19:42] <SpeedEvil> If you want something that works for one or two orbits, and just does a sputnik, then it's not really very hard at all.
[19:42] <jatkins> hahaha
[19:42] <jatkins> Sergei Korolev wasn't that bad
[19:42] <jatkins> it lasted until 58
[19:42] <SpeedEvil> To do anything more is lots more complex.
[19:42] <jatkins> uhuh
[19:43] <jatkins> but possible
[19:43] <jnd> what battery can be used in the 20g sat?
[19:43] <jatkins> supercapacitors possibly
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> For my 'design'
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> naah.
[19:43] <jatkins> not very practical though
[19:43] <akawaka> solar?
[19:43] <jatkins> a few millisecs
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> I was looking at a 200mAh lithium-ion cell.
[19:43] <jatkins> very small, yeah
[19:43] <jatkins> you're all going in?
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> 4W peak from two emcore cells
[19:43] <jatkins> would be cool
[19:43] <jatkins> argh...
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> (much, much less average)
[19:43] <jatkins> I would have nicked some solar cells for you from sstl
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> camera from mobile phone.
[19:44] <jatkins> if you'd asked :)
[19:44] <jatkins> no, wait, maybe not
[19:44] <jatkins> they might not like that
[19:44] Action: SpeedEvil digs up the slashdot post
[19:44] <jatkins> SpeedEvil: just the CMOS/CCD?
[19:44] <jatkins> not the camera I hope
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: nope. Whole camera module.
[19:45] <jatkins> oh
[19:45] <jatkins> won't that be quite heavy?
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: they are all of 5*5*3mm these days
[19:45] <akawaka> SpeedEvil: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?c=102
[19:45] <jatkins> oh right
[19:45] <jatkins> thanks
[19:45] <jatkins> - akawaka
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> akawaka: that's huge
[19:45] <jatkins> or...
[19:45] <jatkins> you could always do a lockheed
[19:45] <jatkins> "we thought you said imperial"
[19:45] <jatkins> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> 20 gross
[19:46] <EI5GTB> would even a really juicy avr be capable of processing a 640px by 480px image?
[19:46] <kamaji> You could always try and get some of those printed solar panels from Nanosolar :3
[19:46] <jatkins> bbl
[19:46] jatkins (n=jatkins@79-70-248-35.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) left irc: "Wow! What a great client! Bersirc 2.2 [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]"
[19:46] <natrium42> hi
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> EI5GTB: I was assuming a 32 bit micro based on the board I'm making.
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=627447&cid=24368731
[19:46] <EI5GTB> SpeedEvil, ah, avr dont have any 32 bitters, no?
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> No.
[19:47] <akawaka> EI5GTB: i couldn't come up with anything capable of doing it
[19:47] <EI5GTB> dam
[19:47] <akawaka> i think you would have to use an FPGA
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> Haha.
[19:47] <EI5GTB> fgpa?
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> FPGAs are expensive, and power-hungry.
[19:47] <EI5GTB> fpga*
[19:47] <natrium42> jcoxon, i embedded twitter onto the tracker
[19:48] <edmoore> natrium42: it's bloody brilliant
[19:48] <natrium42> jcoxon, which twitter account do you want to use?
[19:48] <natrium42> thx
[19:48] icez (n=icez@ip68-98-34-247.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #highaltitude.
[19:48] <natrium42> we could have a shared account for #highaltitude
[19:48] <natrium42> or separate
[19:48] <natrium42> i don't know what's bes
[19:48] <natrium42> +t
[19:48] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: you could try a blackfin, perhaps. You might be able to take advantage of the dual cores in pattern matching
[19:48] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: don't be silly
[19:48] <jcoxon> natrium42, i've never used twitter :-p
[19:49] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: what's wrong with 'em? I guess they might be sledgehammer to a nail
[19:49] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: The CPU board I was using for a metric was my CPU board which is a 32 bit proc, 70MHz, with 20K onboard RAM, 8M offboard, and a 8G microSD
[19:49] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: too large and require too much other 'stuff'.
[19:49] <natrium42> jcoxon, me neither until yesterday :P
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: the processor I'm using is 4mm*4mm
[19:50] <edmoore> wow - what package is that, mlf32 or something?
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: QFN36
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> Err
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> no, that's about right.
[19:51] <edmoore> right, am off out. BBL.
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> Wave.
[19:52] <natrium42> later edmoore
[19:53] <akawaka> you would need a bus speed of something like 60Mhz to read one of those vga camera modules
[19:54] <jcoxon> natrium42, so it'll be away of sending in message updates
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> akawaka: it's nowhere near that bad
[19:54] <jcoxon> bbiab
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> akawaka: I've done the detailed timing diagrams.
[19:54] <natrium42> jcoxon, yep
[19:55] <natrium42> jcoxon, i thought twitter had many tools available, so i chose it
[19:55] <natrium42> it wouldn't be hard at all to make a custom news ticker
[19:55] <SpeedEvil> akawaka: 30*480*640 is lots less than 60M
[19:58] <jnd> 6*
[20:00] <fergusnoble> SpeedEvil: i have one of those cameras, and i can tell yo you really need an fpga
[20:00] <fergusnoble> or cpld
[20:01] <fergusnoble> you need to clock it in the tens of mhz
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> fergusnoble: no, you really don't.
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> fergusnoble: You cannot read it with an 8 bit micro, true, but you don't.
[20:02] <fergusnoble> ok, well yes yo can read it with a fast micro, but that is basically the same complexity as a cply
[20:02] <fergusnoble> *cpld
[20:02] <fergusnoble> my friend is working on a design for our rocket flight compter that reads them with a blackfin
[20:02] <fergusnoble> but thats running at 600mhz clock
[20:02] <SpeedEvil> You can go lots, lots slower than blackfin - with careful design.
[20:03] <SpeedEvil> You do need to readout at a fairly high rate - 10MHz or more.
[20:03] <jcoxon> fergusnoble, why aren't you watching university challenge?
[20:03] <fergusnoble> didnt know it was on
[20:03] <jcoxon> queens'
[20:03] <fergusnoble> orly?
[20:03] <jcoxon> vs st geoges
[20:03] <jcoxon> bbc 2
[20:04] <fergusnoble> hehe i know them
[20:05] <jcoxon> i wish catz would get onto it
[20:05] <jcoxon> as paxman is from catz
[20:05] <jcoxon> luckly for him we're crap at uni challenge
[20:08] edmoore (n=edmoore@66.122-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) left irc:
[20:30] jatkins (n=jatkins@79-70-248-35.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) joined #highaltitude.
[20:30] <jatkins> hi all
[20:30] <jcoxon> hey jatkins
[20:31] <jatkins> hi
[20:31] <jatkins> just wondering ... does anyone use a linux distro as their primary os?
[20:31] <jatkins> or gnu
[20:31] <jcoxon> not right now but i can help
[20:31] <jatkins> thanks
[20:31] <jatkins> well I don't need help at this stage
[20:31] <jcoxon> oh
[20:31] <jatkins> I ordered ubuntu
[20:31] <jatkins> just curious
[20:31] <jcoxon> ordered it?
[20:31] <jatkins> the cd
[20:31] <jatkins> I got the iso
[20:31] <jcoxon> couldn't be bothered to downlload?
[20:32] <jatkins> lol
[20:32] <jatkins> my burners don't work
[20:32] <jcoxon> oh
[20:32] <jatkins> they're a few years old
[20:32] <jatkins> I tried
[20:32] <jcoxon> fair enough
[20:32] <jatkins> on a cd-rw
[20:32] <jcoxon> no one burns cds these days
[20:32] <jatkins> well it could have been a cd+rw
[20:32] <jatkins> yeah
[20:32] <jatkins> I tried with my usb stick
[20:32] <jatkins> but couldn't make it bootable
[20:32] <jatkins> tried bootdisk.com/pendrive.html
[20:32] <jatkins> still no luck
[20:32] <jatkins> well ... got it to boot dos system files
[20:33] <jatkins> but not ubuntu
[20:33] <jatkins> but the cd should come tomorrow
[20:33] <jatkins> only £3.52
[20:33] <jatkins> perhaps a cd+-r would have worked
[20:33] <jatkins> but have no spare ones
[20:33] <jatkins> anyway
[20:33] <jatkins> that's all
[20:33] <jatkins> :)
[20:33] <jatkins> looking at a spec
[20:34] <jatkins> http://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Sensors/Imaging/TCM8240MD.pdf
[20:34] <jatkins> they have to blank everything out! :(
[20:34] <jatkins> I guess we don't need the internal register stuff
[20:34] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:35] <jatkins> jcoxon: is I2C proprietary or open source?
[20:35] <jatkins> 1-Wire's proprietary, know that
[20:35] <jcoxon> open source
[20:35] <jatkins> cool
[20:35] <jatkins> 1-Wire's a bit stupid
[20:35] <jatkins> it's not one wire
[20:35] <jatkins> or is it one wire connecting the host to slave?
[20:35] <jatkins> slave(s)*
[20:35] <jatkins> and then two wires to microcontroller?
[20:36] <jcoxon> isn't it 1 wire as it acts as a tx and rx
[20:36] <jcoxon> natrium42, you around?
[20:36] <jatkins> ok
[20:37] <jatkins> couldn't it just use the same wire for Tx and Rx?
[20:37] <jatkins> just set a boolean variable on the host
[20:37] <jatkins> to know when it's switching between the two
[20:38] <jcoxon> thats probably what happens
[20:38] <jcoxon> i'm not sure
[20:38] <jcoxon> never looked into it
[20:38] <jatkins> ok
[20:38] <jatkins> never used anything 1-wire?
[20:38] <jcoxon> nope
[20:38] <jcoxon> pah
[20:38] <jatkins> lol
[20:39] <jatkins> is SD card interfacing I2C?
[20:39] <jatkins> to an avr
[20:39] <jcoxon> i thinks its spi
[20:39] <jatkins> isn't I2c a type of spi?
[20:39] <jatkins> and 1-wire?
[20:39] <jatkins> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Peripheral_Interface_Bus
[20:39] <jatkins> oh maybe not
[20:40] <jcoxon> they are regarded seperately
[20:40] <jatkins> yeah
[20:40] <jatkins> just looked at the article
[20:40] <jatkins> thought I was it somewhere
[20:40] <jatkins> must have been see also ;)
[20:41] <jatkins> seen*
[20:41] <jatkins> does the camera in the spec just give out a jpeg over spi then?
[20:41] <jcoxon> oh i didn't look
[20:41] <jcoxon> have a read!
[20:41] <jatkins> yeah
[20:41] <jatkins> seems too
[20:42] <jatkins> oh maybe not
[20:42] <jatkins> full mega output _without_ jpeg
[20:43] <jatkins> although it seems to be able to do that too
[20:43] <fergusnoble> jatkins: i think that camera is only configured over I2C
[20:43] <fergusnoble> the data goes over a parallel bus
[20:43] <jatkins> oh yeah
[20:44] <jatkins> thanks
[20:44] <jcoxon> ping natrium42
[20:49] Hiena (n=Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) left irc: "-=Halt! Hammerzeit!=-"
[20:49] <jatkins> jcoxon: is that a real IRC ping command? or are you just doing it manually?
[20:49] <jcoxon> manually
[20:50] <jatkins> oh right
[20:50] Action: EI5GTB has just developed a machine to count in binary on leds
[20:50] <jatkins> msn messenger or live or whatever it is now has some nudge ping-like thing
[20:50] <jatkins> EI5GTB: cool
[20:50] <jatkins> oh I was getting confused with: "Sometimes SPI is called a "four wire" serial bus, contrasting with three, two, and one wire serial buses."
[20:51] <EI5GTB> it was just a test to see if i had shifted the bits right and connected al the right leds to the right pins and all
[20:51] <jatkins> two links to I2C and one links to 1-Wire
[20:51] <jatkins> still pretty cool!
[20:51] <EI5GTB> the only annoying thing about microporcessor programming isa that you can just fire in 'echo's for debugging
[20:51] <fergusnoble> jatkins: this is why the temperature sensor on the badger doesnt work
[20:51] <jatkins> I would have done digitalWrite(10, HIGH); and not been bothered!
[20:51] <jatkins> must be awesome
[20:51] <jatkins> fergusnoble: the interface?
[20:51] <fergusnoble> because we used a 3 wire sensor which isnt spi compatable
[20:51] <jatkins> oh right
[20:51] <jatkins> and coded for spi?
[20:52] <fergusnoble> (basically we suck)
[20:52] <jatkins> lol
[20:52] <jatkins> you've done more than anyone else
[20:52] <jatkins> well, me :)
[20:52] <fergusnoble> because we should read the datasheet properly
[20:52] <jatkins> more than me ^^
[20:52] <jatkins> uhuh
[20:52] <jatkins> oh well
[20:52] <jatkins> I won't list the times I've screwed up on HAB stuff
[20:52] <fergusnoble> yeah, next time
[20:52] <jatkins> we don't have yottabit/s comms yet
[20:52] <jatkins> :)
[20:53] <jatkins> EI5GTB: what language?
[20:53] <jatkins> C?
[20:53] <EI5GTB> c
[20:54] <jatkins> ok
[20:54] <jatkins> cool
[20:54] <jatkins> ANSI/K&R?
[20:54] <jatkins> or a different dialect
[20:54] <jatkins> I do arduino/rbbb stuff in processing/wiring
[20:54] <jatkins> not sure how to do ansi
[20:54] <jatkins> I would, but don't know how to compile
[20:55] <fergusnoble> very few people do proper ansi c
[20:55] <jatkins> well yeah
[20:55] <jatkins> but closer than the arduino version
[20:55] <jatkins> the structures are completely different
[20:55] <fergusnoble> ansi says things like all veriables must be declared in a function before any code
[20:55] <jatkins> so you're doing a void{}, not a function{}
[20:55] <jatkins> ok
[20:55] <jatkins> I don't know much about it
[20:55] <jatkins> just that processing is very specialized
[20:55] <jatkins> well not function{}
[20:55] <fergusnoble> jatkins: if you can do processing you would pick up c really quickly
[20:55] <jatkins> sorry getting confused with php :)
[20:56] <jatkins> yeah
[20:56] <jatkins> I've done a very very very tiny bit of nearly-proper c
[20:56] <jatkins> hello world, etc.
[20:56] <jatkins> simple file i/o
[20:56] <jatkins> and c++ of the same stuff
[20:56] <jatkins> but yeah
[20:56] <fergusnoble> the hard bit of programming is the underlying concept, picking up a new language is a lot quicker
[20:56] <jatkins> I haven't come anywhere near mastering pointers completely yet
[20:56] <jatkins> but my visual c++ for dummies book can help
[20:56] <jatkins> whole chapter on it
[20:57] <jatkins> c++ .net*
[20:57] <jatkins> 2002 or something
[20:57] <jatkins> fergusnoble: yeah
[20:57] <fergusnoble> pointers get a lot easier when you think more about how the processor is actually working
[20:57] <jatkins> jcoxon: do you know if the normal version of gcc can compile for atmega chip?
[20:57] <jatkins> like the memory addresses etc.?
[20:57] <fergusnoble> the normal version cant, but there is a version that does
[20:58] <jatkins> jcoxon: the arduino ide uses avr-gcc.exe
[20:58] <jatkins> ok
[20:58] <jatkins> can it do normal c too?
[20:58] <jatkins> the 'official arduino language' is processing
[20:59] <fergusnoble> maybe the processing is converted to c and then compiled by avr-gcc
[20:59] <fergusnoble> i dont know
[20:59] <jatkins> yeah perhaps
[20:59] <jatkins> so then avr-gcc would also be a preprocessor?
[20:59] <jatkins> if that's what a preprocessor is??
[20:59] <fergusnoble> i dont think gcc knows about processing
[21:00] <jatkins> ok
[21:00] <jatkins> I guess when I hit compile in the ide
[21:00] <fergusnoble> but yeah, maybe some other preprocessor turns the processing language into c
[21:00] <fergusnoble> which then is passed to avr-gcc
[21:00] <jatkins> it doesn't really compile it immediately
[21:00] <jatkins> yeah
[21:00] <fergusnoble> (conjecturing here)
[21:00] <jatkins> hehe
[21:01] <jatkins> as long as it works :)
[21:01] <fergusnoble> yeah
[21:01] <jatkins> and then it just uploads machine code to the avr
[21:02] <jatkins> this is the programming equation: Assembly + 4 Keywords = Machine Code
[21:02] <jatkins> basically ^^
[21:02] <jatkins> and some hex numbers
[21:02] <fergusnoble> learning a bit of assemby is a good idea
[21:02] <jatkins> so
[21:03] <jatkins> it's hard though?
[21:03] <fergusnoble> helps a lot with getting pointers
[21:03] <jatkins> memory addresses etc.
[21:03] <jatkins> well I sort of get them
[21:03] <fergusnoble> its not as hard as people would make you believe
[21:03] <jatkins> ...]I'm not that desparate
[21:03] <jatkins> ...*
[21:03] <jatkins> uhuh
[21:03] <jatkins> well everything used to be written in just pure assembly
[21:03] <fergusnoble> its really easy, but its hard to do complicated things with
[21:03] <jatkins> back in the days
[21:03] <jatkins> pre-jatkins days
[21:03] <jatkins> ok
[21:03] <jatkins> I feel sorry for Gary Kildal
[21:03] <jatkins> an OS in machine code
[21:04] <jatkins> ouch
[21:04] <jatkins> and all the other OS programmers back then
[21:04] <jatkins> does lotus 1-2-3 come under 'complicated things'?
[21:04] <jatkins> must have been pretty hard
[21:04] <jnd> asm ftw
[21:04] <jatkins> but then they did have os apis
[21:04] <fergusnoble> yeah that wold have been hardcore
[21:04] <fergusnoble> but yo build it up slowly in steps
[21:04] <jatkins> yeah
[21:05] <jatkins> not an afternoon's work!
[21:05] <jatkins> :)
[21:05] <jatkins> unless you're super Bill
[21:05] <jatkins> not normal Bill
[21:05] <fergusnoble> hehe
[21:05] <jatkins> he'd just buy it from someone
[21:05] <jatkins> or borrow
[21:05] <jatkins> nah
[21:05] <jatkins> probably steal
[21:05] <jatkins> 'sorry Gary'
[21:05] <jatkins> 'sorry Steve'
[21:05] <fergusnoble> but yeah, assemby is really easy to understand
[21:05] <jatkins> 'I thought Xerox had put the gui in the public domain'
[21:05] <jatkins> ok
[21:05] <fergusnoble> its just hard to see how to apply it once you undersand it
[21:05] <jatkins> for hello world and simple maths sorta sutff?
[21:05] <jatkins> stuff*
[21:06] <fergusnoble> yeah, x86 is different but most microcontrollers have only like 20 instructions
[21:06] <jatkins> ok
[21:06] <jatkins> asm keywords?
[21:06] <jatkins> = instructions?
[21:07] <fergusnoble> yeah, i guess you could call them that
[21:07] <jatkins> I'm very simple!
[21:07] <jatkins> when it comes to this low-level
[21:07] <fergusnoble> things like "jp" means jump to a certain memory location
[21:07] <jatkins> have you done x86 asm?
[21:07] <jatkins> ok
[21:07] <fergusnoble> back in the day
[21:07] <jatkins> lol
[21:07] <fergusnoble> as it were
[21:07] <fergusnoble> only a small amount
[21:07] <jatkins> ok
[21:07] <jatkins> still pretty neat
[21:08] <jatkins> don't go too far back!
[21:08] <jatkins> you'll only need 0s and 1s!
[21:08] <fergusnoble> x86 is CISC (complex instruction set computer)
[21:08] <fergusnoble> has loads of different instructions
[21:08] <jatkins> they sure don't make it sound easy
[21:08] <jatkins> :)
[21:08] <jatkins> it's funny
[21:08] <jatkins> when you compare c with asm
[21:08] <fergusnoble> they made one for every different circumstance
[21:08] <jatkins> it's so high-level compared
[21:08] <jatkins> right
[21:08] <jatkins> but
[21:08] <fergusnoble> like to set a memory location there are different instructions for different areas of memory
[21:09] <jatkins> it's still much higher
[21:09] <jatkins> yep
[21:09] <jatkins> and a pointer points to a mem. address
[21:09] <jatkins> but it can be changed to point to a different address
[21:09] <jatkins> and to access the addresss' value you use &pointer_name
[21:09] <jatkins> or something
[21:09] <fergusnoble> but RISC they say you only really need a few instructions to get things done
[21:09] <fergusnoble> anyway, got to go
[21:09] <fergusnoble> bbiab
[21:09] <jatkins> cya
[21:09] <jatkins> hanks
[21:10] <jatkins> thanks*
[21:10] <jatkins> well, I liked Apollo 13 and simpsons movie, but thanks, not hanks
[21:11] <jatkins> damn network card
[21:11] <jatkins> ping anyone?
[21:11] <jatkins> am I connected?
[21:12] <jcoxon> yup
[21:12] <jatkins> oh good
[21:12] <jatkins> ty
[21:12] <jatkins> firefox just the problem then..
[21:12] <jatkins> bbs
[21:12] <jatkins> dis,re,connecting
[21:13] Action: natrium42 pokes jcoxon
[21:13] <jcoxon> hey
[21:13] <jcoxon> do you use the same sql database for the old and new tracker?
[21:14] <natrium42> yep
[21:14] <natrium42> same
[21:14] <jcoxon> okay cool
[21:15] jatkins[1] (n=jatkins@79-70-248-35.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) joined #highaltitude.
[21:15] <jatkins[1]> bad news ... I'm back
[21:15] <jatkins[1]> :)
[21:15] <akawaka> shite!
[21:15] <jatkins[1]> :)
[21:15] <jatkins[1]> the NIC's not that good
[21:15] <jatkins[1]> it'll screw up again in a second
[21:16] <akawaka> actually with the camera modules you'd need a bus speed around 10-20mhz, you're right
[21:17] <akawaka> that usually implies a much higer core speed though, right?
[21:19] <jcoxon> natrium42, the reason i ask was that for my ground code the basic tracker suffices rather then all the extra stuff ( i have it in a webkit window)
[21:19] <natrium42> yah, gotcha
[21:19] <jcoxon> okay cool
[21:20] <natrium42> should work without problems
[21:20] <jcoxon> just adding some tabs to my program so i can flick between
[21:20] <jcoxon> excellent
[21:20] <natrium42> i should probably make a few variants
[21:20] <jatkins[1]> jcoxon: you use xcode+cocoa?
[21:20] <natrium42> only gmap, gmap + pictures, gmap + pictures + chat
[21:20] <jatkins[1]> natrium42: you could put then in <div>s and just have checkboxes
[21:21] <jatkins[1]> so check for gmap, check for pics, check for chat
[21:21] <jcoxon> jatkins xcode+rubycocoa
[21:21] <jatkins[1]> or just tabs to view each one individually
[21:21] <jatkins[1]> ah, nice language
[21:21] <jatkins[1]> python+xtra coolness
[21:21] <natrium42> jatkins, true, or as a GET parameter
[21:21] <jatkins[1]> yeah
[21:21] <jatkins[1]> or POST, but that would be mean
[21:22] <jatkins[1]> jcoxon: I think my old vb 6 pro doesn't _just slightly_ misses the mark of xcode
[21:23] <jatkins[1]> and to add insult to injury, apple go off and make it free to os x users
[21:23] <jcoxon> of i really like xcode
[21:23] <jatkins[1]> I guess this is punishment for using msft stuff
[21:23] <jatkins[1]> yeah it's awesome
[21:23] <jatkins[1]> looks awesome
[21:23] <jatkins[1]> I haven't ever used it
[21:23] <jatkins[1]> but it's made by apple, so...
[21:23] <jatkins[1]> and it's free
[21:23] <natrium42> textmate is nice, i wish it ran on linux :P
[21:24] <jatkins[1]> yeah
[21:24] <jatkins[1]> what distro are you using?
[21:24] <jatkins[1]> textmate != cheap
[21:24] <jatkins[1]> notepad++ = awesome
[21:25] <jatkins[1]> natrium42: do you use emacs or vim or something then?
[21:25] <natrium42> gedit usually
[21:25] <jatkins[1]> ok
[21:25] <jatkins[1]> cool
[21:25] <jatkins[1]> distro?
[21:25] <natrium42> ubuntu
[21:25] <jatkins[1]> cool
[21:25] <jatkins[1]> should get the disk in the post tomorrow
[21:26] <jatkins[1]> (my cd burner doesn't work)
[21:26] <jatkins[1]> and I couldn't make a bootable pen drive
[21:26] <jatkins[1]> what do you use as input on the tracker - xml?
[21:27] <jcoxon> natrium42, you can still access the admin page
[21:27] <natrium42> yeah, should i lock it?
[21:28] <jatkins[1]> billg's out of a job, he might accidentally end up in it
[21:28] <jatkins[1]> php behind it?
[21:28] <jcoxon> ummm, we could lose quite a lot of data i guess
[21:29] <natrium42> okay, username and password are going to be the same as for the pictures
[21:29] <jcoxon> okay
[21:29] <natrium42> one more thing
[21:29] <natrium42> can you add the password to sending coordinates?
[21:29] <jcoxon> yup
[21:30] <natrium42> you are not using email, right?
[21:30] <natrium42> just the URL
[21:30] <natrium42> yes?
[21:30] jatkins (n=jatkins@79-70-248-35.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[21:30] <jcoxon> just url
[21:30] <natrium42> ok, great
[21:30] Simon-MPFH (n=simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) left irc: "Leaving"
[21:31] <jcoxon> hehe
[21:31] <natrium42> just add &pass=<password> everythwere
[21:31] <jatkins[1]> global vars is off?
[21:31] <natrium42> :)
[21:31] <natrium42> think so
[21:31] <jatkins[1]> well
[21:31] <jatkins[1]> doesn't matter
[21:31] <jatkins[1]> as long as you're not doing
[21:31] <jatkins[1]> $authenticated = 1; etc.
[21:32] <natrium42> nah
[21:32] <jatkins[1]> have to remind myself as I end up doing that :)
[21:32] <jatkins[1]> do you know if global vars works on the $_SESSION vars?
[21:32] <jcoxon> natrium42, is that from now onwards?
[21:32] <natrium42> yeah
[21:33] <natrium42> i am going to add a proper admin interface soon
[21:33] <jatkins[1]> I usually have $_SESSION['this_app_authenticated']
[21:33] <natrium42> so that you can have multiple saved missions
[21:33] <natrium42> etc
[21:33] <natrium42> or multiple people using it
[21:33] <jatkins[1]> natrium42: would auth.php?$_session['this_app_authenticated']=1 or something let them through?
[21:33] <natrium42> nah
[21:33] <jatkins[1]> not to your app
[21:33] <jatkins[1]> oh good
[21:33] <jatkins[1]> well no one has global vars on anyway ;)
[21:34] <jatkins[1]> they're removing it in php 6
[21:34] <jatkins[1]> yay!
[21:34] <natrium42> hehe
[21:34] <jatkins[1]> along with those bloody magic_quotes
[21:34] <jatkins[1]> when Rasmus Lerdorf says he's not a programmer, he means it
[21:34] <jatkins[1]> :)
[21:35] <jatkins[1]> jcoxon: have you used/use apache?
[21:35] <jcoxon> i've dabbled
[21:35] <jcoxon> i'm not really into web stuff
[21:35] <jatkins[1]> np
[21:35] <jatkins[1]> with mod_python?
[21:35] <jcoxon> nope
[21:35] <jatkins[1]> np
[21:35] <jatkins[1]> natrium42?
[21:35] <jatkins[1]> modpython?
[21:36] <natrium42> not sure, i probably have it
[21:36] <natrium42> or i could enable it
[21:36] <jatkins[1]> ok
[21:36] <jatkins[1]> yeah
[21:36] <jatkins[1]> I tried for about 15 mins
[21:36] <natrium42> it's a dedicated server, so i have full control
[21:36] <jatkins[1]> then went back to php
[21:36] <jatkins[1]> oh cool
[21:36] <jatkins[1]> I was doing a web site for a photographer guy
[21:36] <jatkins[1]> his friend had already signed him up for hosting with
[21:36] <jatkins[1]> uh
[21:36] <jatkins[1]> easyspace, that's the one
[21:37] <jatkins[1]> they don't give you .htaccess permissions on shared hosting!
[21:37] <jatkins[1]> it's a joke
[21:37] <jatkins[1]> rediculous
[21:37] <natrium42> yah, that's pretty lame
[21:37] <jatkins[1]> so I'd done a whole load of really cool (ok, not that cool) mod_rewrite stuff
[21:37] <jatkins[1]> ...and voila, I get from support: we support it on our *dedicated* servers
[21:37] <natrium42> i use modrewrite to redirect www.natrium42.com to natrium42.com
[21:38] <jatkins[1]> what's more funny is that he paid £100/year
[21:38] <jatkins[1]> you're a no-www person?
[21:38] <jatkins[1]> (that's 200 cad/year)
[21:38] <natrium42> well, otherwise the requests fail
[21:38] <natrium42> because of security
[21:38] <jatkins[1]> oh right
[21:38] <jatkins[1]> yeah
[21:38] <jatkins[1]> subdomain dns ?
[21:39] <natrium42> eh?
[21:39] <jatkins[1]> ok, not that
[21:39] <jatkins[1]> well subdomain issues?
[21:39] <natrium42> right
[21:39] <jatkins[1]> not really dns, well, at all
[21:39] <natrium42> exactly
[21:39] <jatkins[1]> ;)
[21:39] <natrium42> :)
[21:40] <jatkins[1]> but what the heck, might as well just 'dns' in there too
[21:40] <jatkins[1]> :)
[21:40] <jatkins[1]> have you got the tracker linked up to a db?
[21:40] <natrium42> yep
[21:40] <jatkins[1]> mysql or something else?
[21:40] <jatkins[1]> mysql rocks
[21:40] <jatkins[1]> sqlite's pretty cool
[21:41] <natrium42> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/projects:tracker
[21:41] <jatkins[1]> MS SQL can go die
[21:41] <natrium42> that's the old version
[21:41] <jatkins[1]> oh nice
[21:41] <natrium42> or "the basic" rather
[21:41] <jatkins[1]> yeah
[21:41] <natrium42> :)
[21:41] <jatkins[1]> still cool
[21:41] <jatkins[1]> fx on windows but a tarbull download :)?
[21:41] <natrium42> the only change in the table for the new one is a picture field
[21:41] <jatkins[1]> yeah
[21:41] <jatkins[1]> I guess that's 7zip or something
[21:42] <jatkins[1]> which is a neat app
[21:42] <natrium42> jatkins[1], yeah, i didn't have screenshot button setup on my macbook pro
[21:42] <natrium42> :P
[21:42] <jatkins[1]> oh you have the lot! :)
[21:42] <jatkins[1]> I've suffered through 98, xp, and have to see vista out the corner of my eye on my older bro's pc
[21:43] <natrium42> haha
[21:43] <jatkins[1]> "Introducing Hell" A subsidary of Microsoft Corporation, Inc.
[21:43] <natrium42> i triple boot on my MBP (vista, osx, linux)
[21:43] <jatkins[1]> "Your Potential (you suck); Our passion (We're better than you, so go screw yourself)"
[21:43] <jatkins[1]> nice
[21:43] <natrium42> and my desktop comp is just winxp
[21:43] <jatkins[1]> well the second two
[21:43] <jatkins[1]> ok
[21:44] <jatkins[1]> have you got an air?
[21:44] <natrium42> my sister has one
[21:44] <jatkins[1]> ok
[21:44] <jatkins[1]> any good?
[21:44] <natrium42> it's nice for portable use
[21:44] <natrium42> not as main machine
[21:44] <jatkins[1]> I think the lenovo x300 looks pretty nicer
[21:44] <jatkins[1]> nice*
[21:44] <jatkins[1]> with ubuntu/xp bro dual boot
[21:44] <jatkins[1]> pro*
[21:46] <natrium42> unfortunately ibm/lenovo seems to have no designers
[21:46] <jatkins[1]> wow
[21:46] <jatkins[1]> lol
[21:46] <jatkins[1]> it's got nice features
[21:46] <jatkins[1]> http://www.webwhitenoise.com/?itemid=148
[21:46] <natrium42> they are sturdy machines, though
[21:46] <jatkins[1]> someone _actually_ uses silverlight!!!!
[21:46] <jatkins[1]> yeah
[21:46] <akawaka> i think lenovo is going down hill
[21:46] <jatkins[1]> got a very old thinkpad600
[21:46] <jatkins[1]> maybe
[21:46] <akawaka> i'm happy with my lenovo t60, but its not perfect
[21:46] <jatkins[1]> thinkpad should have stayed with ibm!
[21:46] <jatkins[1]> t=thinkpad?
[21:46] <akawaka> i think my next will be a dell
[21:46] <jatkins[1]> noooooo!
[21:47] <akawaka> jatkins[1]: yeah
[21:47] <jatkins[1]> I'm on an inspiron 1200 now
[21:47] <jatkins[1]> you have been warned!
[21:47] <jatkins[1]> :)
[21:47] <jatkins[1]> they're not that bad
[21:47] <natrium42> i considered the lenovo at first, since it has 1920x1200 screen
[21:47] <jatkins[1]> nice
[21:47] <natrium42> but then i noticed that the screen is shifted
[21:47] <natrium42> :S
[21:47] <jatkins[1]> why did they sell it to lenovo? not profitable?
[21:48] edmoore (n=edmoore@66.122-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) joined #highaltitude.
[21:48] <jatkins[1]> love if it was that "Hey, Lenovo, this is screwing our business up, but if you give us the odd billlion here and there, you can have our unprofitable pc familiy"
[21:48] <natrium42> ibm has made a bunch of interesting decisions in the past
[21:48] <jatkins[1]> yeah
[21:48] <edmoore> yo
[21:48] <natrium42> like going with MSDOS instead of their own OS
[21:48] <edmoore> fergusnoble: Hi
[21:48] <jatkins[1]> not the microsoft one!
[21:48] <jatkins[1]> hey edmoore
[21:48] <jatkins[1]> well
[21:48] <jatkins[1]> it didn't really help us get out of the dark ages! :)
[21:48] <natrium42> hey ed
[21:49] <jatkins[1]> pretty harsh to digital research though
[21:49] <jatkins[1]> MS-DOS=CP/M
[21:49] <jatkins[1]> with a few tweaks
[21:49] <jatkins[1]> anyway, back to high altitude stuff
[21:50] <edmoore> jatkins[1]: hi
[21:50] <edmoore> hi natrium42
[21:50] <edmoore> the tracker has had me excited all of the last 2 hours of squash
[21:50] <edmoore> it's beautiful
[21:50] <natrium42> thanks :)
[21:51] <natrium42> i hope it runs OK on slower machines
[21:51] <akawaka> natrium42: did you use some kind of toolkit for it?
[21:51] <natrium42> mootools
[21:52] <natrium42> for ajax and animated scrolling of the picture scroll pane
[21:52] <jatkins[1]> have you used other js frameworks?
[21:52] <jatkins[1]> prototyping
[21:52] <jatkins[1]> or
[21:52] <jatkins[1]> the other one :)
[21:52] <natrium42> yeah, scriptaculous
[21:52] <jatkins[1]> whatever it's called
[21:52] <jatkins[1]> yeah
[21:52] <natrium42> they are all very similar
[21:52] <jatkins[1]> or
[21:52] <jatkins[1]> yeah
[21:53] <jatkins[1]> all object-oriented
[21:53] <jatkins[1]> j-query, that's it
[21:53] <natrium42> haven't tried jquery yet
[21:53] <jatkins[1]> it's bloatedx1 million
[21:53] <jatkins[1]> but nice syntax
[21:53] <jatkins[1]> ish
[21:53] <jatkins[1]> it gets the job done
[21:53] <natrium42> hehe
[21:53] <jatkins[1]> I haven't used it
[21:53] <jatkins[1]> just seen the examples
[21:53] <natrium42> i never remember the syntax anyway
[21:54] <jatkins[1]> lol
[21:54] <natrium42> my memory sux
[21:54] <jatkins[1]> ram?
[21:54] <jatkins[1]> how much?
[21:56] <jcoxon> hmmmmm i need a method of error detection
[21:57] <jcoxon> natrium42, how are you stopping errors getting into tracker
[22:00] <natrium42> well
[22:00] <natrium42> there is not much error detection
[22:00] <natrium42> but the sql table has types
[22:00] <jcoxon> oh yeah
[22:01] <natrium42> i could probably check lat/lon
[22:01] <natrium42> if they are within range
[22:01] <natrium42> speaking of error checking
[22:01] <natrium42> the times for badger were weird
[22:02] <natrium42> have you looked at that?
[22:02] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:02] <jcoxon> i wasn't parsing them correctly
[22:02] <natrium42> oh, ok
[22:02] <natrium42> hhmmss
[22:02] <jcoxon> sorry :-s
[22:02] <natrium42> :)
[22:02] <jcoxon> yeah yeah
[22:02] <jcoxon> was pushed for time
[22:03] <natrium42> no problem, i was just wondering whether you have seen it/fixed it
[22:03] <jcoxon> i'm redoing all that right now
[22:03] <jcoxon> so it'll be fixed
[22:04] <natrium42> great
[22:04] <natrium42> so what do you think about using twitter?
[22:05] <natrium42> for news ticker?
[22:05] <jcoxon> yeah its sort of for permenant updates
[22:05] <jcoxon> such as
[22:05] <jcoxon> "Launch"
[22:05] <jcoxon> or
[22:05] <jcoxon> "Beginning Chase"
[22:05] <jcoxon> yeah?
[22:05] <natrium42> right
[22:05] <natrium42> and since it's twitter, people can do a lot of nice things with the feed
[22:06] fergusnoble (n=fergusno@82-71-15-97.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[22:06] <natrium42> keep track of it anywhere
[22:06] <natrium42> etc
[22:06] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:06] <natrium42> also, you can send updates to the ticker via sms
[22:06] <jcoxon> i'm not sure how much we'll use it this time
[22:06] <jcoxon> its going to be quite hectic!
[22:06] <natrium42> hehe
[22:07] <natrium42> you need one person to do the updates :P
[22:07] <jatkins[1]> bbl
[22:07] <jatkins[1]> 2moz
[22:07] jatkins[1] (n=jatkins@79-70-248-35.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) left irc: "Yummy, like ircing on a cake! [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]"
[22:10] robert1971 (n=rharriso@80.176.172.227) left #highaltitude.
[22:10] <jcoxon> oh what i'd do for TrueTTY to update its log file more often
[22:10] robert1971 (n=rharriso@80.176.172.227) joined #highaltitude.
[22:10] <edmoore> jcoxon: the linux code. the linux code!
[22:11] <jcoxon> but its packet not rtty :-p
[22:11] <edmoore> oh right
[22:13] <jcoxon> also truetty does decode rather well
[22:13] <jcoxon> and my program is pretty
[22:15] <natrium42> jcoxon, ok, now positions to tracker require password
[22:15] <jcoxon> np
[22:16] icez (n=icez@ip68-98-34-247.ph.ph.cox.net) got netsplit.
[22:16] icez (n=icez@ip68-98-34-247.ph.ph.cox.net) returned to #highaltitude.
[22:19] Fnoble (i=52470f61@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-50f74d2d457121c7) joined #highaltitude.
[22:22] <kamaji> Hm
[22:22] <kamaji> can anyone point me at the forecaster thing?
[22:22] <kamaji> as in flight path
[22:22] <jcoxon> on the wiki
[22:22] <natrium42> jcoxon, ok, admin is now also password protected
[22:22] <jcoxon> balloon trajectory bit
[22:23] <EI5GTB> kamaji, http://weather.uwyo.edu/polar/balloon_traj.html
[22:23] <kamaji> cheers
[22:23] <kamaji> How accurate has that proved?
[22:24] <natrium42> it was very accurate for one of my launches
[22:24] <natrium42> to within a few km
[22:24] <natrium42> but you should use it as a tool to predict the general direction on where it's going to go
[22:24] <natrium42> your ascend/descend rates may be different to the hardcoded ones
[22:25] <kamaji> righto
[22:25] <kamaji> I just want to make sure it won't drop in the sea :3
[22:26] <natrium42> yah, it's great for that
[22:26] <jcoxon> kamaji, you launching?
[22:26] Fnoble (i=52470f61@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-50f74d2d457121c7) got netsplit.
[22:26] icez (n=icez@ip68-98-34-247.ph.ph.cox.net) got netsplit.
[22:26] <kamaji> not yet
[22:26] <kamaji> buying my stuff
[22:26] <kamaji> I just needed the location of the tool
[22:30] <kamaji> Hm, what format do you put the lat/lon in?
[22:30] <natrium42> not sure, try decimal
[22:36] <kamaji> i'm getting "invalid location" rather than "invalid latitude" now :|
[22:37] icez (n=icez@ip68-98-34-247.ph.ph.cox.net) got lost in the net-split.
[22:37] Fnoble (i=52470f61@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-50f74d2d457121c7) got lost in the net-split.
[22:38] <kamaji> I've done something stupid
[22:42] icez (n=icez@ip68-98-34-247.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #highaltitude.
[22:44] <robert1971> Anyone recomend a USB avr ISP
[22:45] <robert1971> Preferably one that works under linux and windoze
[22:51] <kamaji> has anyone seen this? http://www.roundsolutions.com/aarlogic/index.htm
[22:51] <kamaji> they say they're releasing a GPS/GPRS that runs linux soon :o
[22:52] <natrium42> neat-o
[22:52] <natrium42> linux would be great
[22:52] <kamaji> and they have a python debugger board (?)
[22:53] <kamaji> I didn't look into it tho
[22:55] <jcoxon> bingo
[22:55] <jcoxon> sorted out the error detection
[22:56] <jcoxon> easy - packet radio has error correction :-p
[22:56] <jcoxon> just need to make sure the correct number of fields are present then the data is pretty much valid
[22:57] <kamaji> I'm going to ring them tomorrow about the release date of that embedded linux board, it looks pretty awesome
[23:02] <natrium42> robert1971, have you looked at ATJTAGICE?
[23:03] <natrium42> olimex has a cheap clone http://www.olimex.com/dev/avr-usb-jtag.html
[23:03] <natrium42> and it's supported in GDB using avarice under linux
[23:04] <natrium42> so you can step through the program, read registers, etc
[23:05] <jcoxon> anyone got any windows programming experience?
[23:05] <kamaji> ugh, no :P
[23:05] <kamaji> well, I do with Delphi.... otherwise no
[23:07] <jcoxon> hmmm oh well
[23:10] <akawaka> jcoxon: sure
[23:10] <jcoxon> oooo
[23:10] <jcoxon> right
[23:10] <jcoxon> well
[23:10] <jcoxon> basically i'm using truetty in wine on my mac
[23:10] fnoble (n=fnoblef@82-71-15-97.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[23:10] <jcoxon> http://www.dxsoft.com/mitrtty.htm
[23:10] <jcoxon> and it logs the received data to a file exceedingly slowly
[23:10] <jcoxon> like every 5 mins
[23:11] <jcoxon> now there is a DLL library that can interface with truetty and grab data from the received buffer
[23:11] <jcoxon> and i was wondering if some one would whip together a binary which uses this and logs to a file say every 30 secs
[23:12] <jcoxon> which i could then run in wine and everyone will get far more upto date info during the launch :-D
[23:12] <akawaka> no promises
[23:12] <akawaka> where is the info on the dll stuff?
[23:12] <jcoxon> i know its a lot to ask
[23:13] <jcoxon> at the bottom of the text of the page is a paragraph about it and a zip file with the dll, some examples etc
[23:13] <jcoxon> akawaka, if you don't have any time don't worry about it
[23:13] <jcoxon> (or can't be bothered etc)
[23:15] edmoore (n=edmoore@66.122-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
[23:15] <EI5GTB> http://blog.paulsnet.org/?p=34
[23:15] <EI5GTB> look, woo!
[23:15] edmoore (n=edmoore@66.122-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) joined #highaltitude.
[23:16] <fnoble> you have a fluke
[23:16] <fnoble> lucky bum
[23:17] <akawaka> jcoxon: i'll take a look, might run into some dll version problems that could be a bitch to solve
[23:17] <akawaka> what do you want, write out to a file at a faster rate?
[23:17] <jcoxon> oh really
[23:17] <jcoxon> yeah
[23:17] <jcoxon> cause i read the file and then update the tracker
[23:17] <jcoxon> instead of every 5 mins perhaps every 30 secs
[23:20] <natrium42> EI5GTB, your ham setup looks very good --> http://paulsnet.org/myshack/
[23:22] <EI5GTB> its changed slightly since then
[23:22] <EI5GTB> i must update
[23:22] <EI5GTB> fnoble, heh, my dads an electriction
[23:22] <EI5GTB> that was a "company" meter, when he worked in a big factory
[23:22] <jcoxon> akawaka, thanks for the help, i'm going to be rude and go off, got to get some sleep before my last exam tomorrow :-D
[23:23] <kamaji> oho, good luck
[23:24] <EI5GTB> jcoxon, good luck with that
[23:24] <jcoxon> thanks
[23:24] <jcoxon> night all
[23:24] jcoxon (n=jcoxon@host86-144-99-26.range86-144.btcentralplus.com) left irc: "Leaving"
[23:28] <kamaji> I have to get up
[23:29] <kamaji> so i'm going to bed now
[23:29] <kamaji> this is a haiku
[23:29] <EI5GTB> ...?
[23:29] <EI5GTB> you confuse me
[23:29] <natrium42> lol
[23:29] kamaji (n=kamaji@handtomouse.demon.co.uk) left irc: "night :3"
[23:30] <EI5GTB> now what does anyone know about voltage division circuits?
[23:31] <EI5GTB> actually, dumb question, nevermind
[23:59] fnoble (n=fnoblef@82-71-15-97.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[00:00] --- Tue Aug 5 2008