[00:00] <RocketBoyV1> pc world, staples, maplins
[00:00] <jcoxon> oooo pc world is pretty much the same as currys
[00:00] <jcoxon> its gonna be maplins then
[00:00] <RocketBoyV1> dixons
[00:01] <jcoxon> having to be quite particular need the right chipset
[00:01] <RocketBoyV1> wot chipset
[00:01] <jcoxon> anything on this list
[00:01] <jcoxon> http://mxhaard.free.fr/spca5xx.html
[00:02] <jcoxon> i've got everything set up for any of these cameras
[00:06] <jcoxon> this might do:
[00:06] <jcoxon> http://www.dixons.co.uk/martprd/store/dix_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1415159516.1217459094@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccdfadeekdgkjffcflgceggdhhmdgmj.0&page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=839070&category_oid=
[00:09] <RocketBoyV1> hum wot you need to know is what chipset is in what cam
[00:10] <jcoxon> oh that actually camera is listed in that list
[00:10] <SpeedEvil> Which may not help.
[00:11] <RocketBoyV1> go for it then - the priice looks good
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> As they can change them :(
[00:11] <jcoxon> just a question of whether my nearest shop stocks them
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: what for?
[00:12] <jcoxon> what for what?
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> If linux. 'driver free' or 'usb video class' usually will mean it works with linux
[00:12] <SpeedEvil> webcam
[00:12] <jcoxon> the thing is that i have the drivers all set up
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> k
[00:13] <jcoxon> so its a hassle having to set up something else
[00:13] <jcoxon> it doesn't need to be any good
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> I think the 'usb video class' driver is now mainline
[00:13] <jcoxon> oh yeah i know
[00:13] <RocketBoyV1> night
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[00:14] <SpeedEvil> tandy I saw some in.
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> And I got some cheap ones from Homebase.
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[00:18] <robert1971> I'm knackerd, Just finished securing the servo to camera using a piece of aluminium and the existing screw holes in the camera. Off to bed in a sec when I have packed away the tools from the kitchen
[00:19] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:23] <robert1971> Tools packed away... Night Night
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[00:24] <jcoxon> night all
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[01:27] <jiffe88> anyone know why the altitude jumps around so much on the lassen gps chip?
[01:29] <SpeedEvil> Altitude is typically less well determined than horizontal on all GPSs.
[01:29] <SpeedEvil> Owing to not being able to see satellites through the earth.
[01:30] Action: SpeedEvil ponders if the balloon is a lens.
[01:31] <SpeedEvil> Probably too long focal length to affect.
[01:31] <SpeedEvil> dunno if it might cause wierd reflections on grazing rays.
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[08:29] <icez> well that's lovely
[08:29] <icez> someone asked me if I could make a website for them...
[08:29] <icez> so I replied to their email...
[08:29] <icez> and I get an email a bit later saying "you know you're talking to a real programmer when the replies were sent at midnight"
[08:29] <icez> lol :P
[08:34] <edmoore> midnight??
[08:34] <edmoore> That's not that late
[08:34] <edmoore> it's the 4am replies that amuse me
[08:45] <icez> :P
[08:45] <icez> i heard you might go for the N-prize?
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[09:05] <jcoxon> morning edmoore_
[09:05] <edmoore_> g'morning
[09:05] <edmoore_> so I started my sim off at 6pm yesterday
[09:05] <jcoxon> still running?
[09:05] <edmoore_> it's now done 549 runs
[09:05] <edmoore_> and there are 39000 in total
[09:06] <edmoore_> I think we might have to fire the cluster up to get it done this side of christmas
[09:06] Nick change: edmoore_ -> edmoore
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[09:06] <jcoxon> oh dear
[09:07] <edmoore> anyhoo, how's it going?
[09:07] <jcoxon> not bad
[09:07] <jcoxon> about to start some revision
[09:07] <jcoxon> also found out that i should have gone for the cheaper webcam
[09:07] <jcoxon> as its supported
[09:08] <edmoore> is the more expensive one definitely not?
[09:08] <jcoxon> sadly it isn't
[09:08] <edmoore> if not, we can use it for the launch :)
[09:08] <jcoxon> even when i lied to the driver
[09:08] <jcoxon> we'd need a windoze box
[09:08] <edmoore> so we can use it as the launch webcam?
[09:08] <jcoxon> the kernel developer for those cameras got angry with the world and stopped developing early this year
[09:09] <jcoxon> sure
[09:09] <jcoxon> i just don't have windows!
[09:10] <jcoxon> bbl
[09:15] Action: SpeedEvil likes his http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-Live-Cam-Optia-AF/dp/B000Q2NK7C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1217491939&sr=8-1
[09:20] <icez> behold, the first blue screen of death from 32km!
[09:20] <icez> :P
[09:22] <SpeedEvil> (USB, 1400*1200, 10fps)
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[09:53] <edmoore> hi robert1971
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: sims of what?
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: the rocket?
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> (s)
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[10:25] <edmoore> John I think we need to print the flight path angle relative to the steady state wind vector to sanitize the inputs to 6DOF, otherwise the trajectory matching will be screwed by the EMCD gusting scenarios. And I emailed david pearce at nasa about using the MSL pdv, but no reply yet. Do we have huygens one lying around?
[10:25] <edmoore> oh shit this isn't skype
[10:25] <edmoore> sorry
[10:26] <Shanuson> lol
[10:26] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: the sims are for work
[10:26] <SpeedEvil> oh - that.
[10:27] <edmoore> picking an exomars trajectory and deployment timing schedule.
[10:27] <edmoore> laboriously.
[10:27] <SpeedEvil> Trajectory is a bitch.
[10:27] <SpeedEvil> We..
[10:28] <SpeedEvil> Low-energy trajectory is a bitch.
[10:28] <edmoore> this is trajectory through the atmosphere, not cruise.
[10:28] <SpeedEvil> if you've got delta-v to spare, then it's lots easier.
[10:28] <SpeedEvil> simulating various entry angles and stuff.
[10:28] <SpeedEvil> heatings/...
[10:29] <SpeedEvil> Not really looked seriously at that as my ambitions don't include reentry.
[10:29] Action: SpeedEvil ponders the minimum size of a pulsed plasma thruster.
[10:31] Action: SpeedEvil ponders the smallest meaningfull mars-lander.
[10:57] <robert1971> jcoxon: OT... Is the wiki backed up or should I keep copies of my guides
[11:10] <jcoxon> ummmm i don't think its backed up
[11:10] <jcoxon> best keep a copy
[11:11] <Shanuson> imho its always best to keep an own copy of stuff, you never know
[11:14] <phatmonkey> it's not backed up at the moment, but i have nightlies planned
[11:14] <phatmonkey> it's safe enough, redundant disks and all, just nothing offsite
[11:15] Action: SpeedEvil sets fire to the building.
[11:15] <phatmonkey> does the site feel faster for anyone since i moved it? it should do...
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[11:15] <SpeedEvil> I'm reminded of airdisaster.net
[11:16] <jcoxon> phatmonkey, we should stick google ads on it to make a bit o revenue :-p
[11:16] <phatmonkey> yeah probably!
[11:16] <phatmonkey> that might pay for the hosting
[11:16] <Ei5GTB_> morning
[11:16] <phatmonkey> not sure how much traffic we get really
[11:16] <jcoxon> i've got it on my wiki
[11:16] <phatmonkey> morning!
[11:17] <SpeedEvil> A forum with maybe a hundred thousand posts, with in-detail analysis of various accidents. That just went away one day after a double failure.
[11:17] EI5GTB (n=Paul@213-202-157-79.bas503.dsl.esat.net) left irc: Nick collision from services.
[11:17] Nick change: Ei5GTB_ -> EI5GTB
[11:17] <SpeedEvil> (though not really comparable of course)
[11:17] <phatmonkey> crikey
[11:17] <phatmonkey> yeah, good backups are a good idea
[11:17] <phatmonkey> i'll get to work...
[11:18] <phatmonkey> rapidswitch were charging more for offsite backup space than it would have cost for a whole new server
[11:18] <phatmonkey> no chance!
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> That wasn't a poke or anything - I was just wibbling.
[11:18] <phatmonkey> and i would have needed to install a second network card
[11:18] <phatmonkey> nah, it's sensible
[11:19] <phatmonkey> i'll just rsync to my file server here at home, maybe in the future i'll do snapshotting etc
[11:21] <phatmonkey> oh that's nothing much really
[11:21] <phatmonkey> 14,000 page views in 6 months... a forum I run gets 1,000,000 in a single month!
[11:21] <phatmonkey> we actually have a prominent ad on there
[11:22] <phatmonkey> i forget how much it makes now
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[11:55] <robert1971> phatmonkey:One pound per gig per month rapid switch charge me
[11:57] <robert1971> Phatmonkey: I can offer you some rsync space on a server here if you're interested.
[11:57] <robert1971> We have a 10mb leaseline into my serverroom
[11:58] <edmoore> shiiit!
[11:59] <edmoore> the output format of the sim changes depending on the results of the sim in a very unexpected way.
[11:59] <edmoore> so my parsing routine has been churning out gibberish.
[11:59] Action: robert1971 thinks Oh dear!
[12:00] <robert1971> I'm going to try to do some real work for a bit. Let me know if you want some rsync space
[12:10] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: get it wrong well enough, and you get your name in the papers!
[12:11] <SpeedEvil> 'Mars probe smashes into Titan, millions killed'.
[12:12] <edmoore> that would be a revelation
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> One day it's a revelation, the next, they're hunting us like bugs.
[12:15] <EI5GTB> how high would you need to get a 1kg object before it would orbit?
[12:16] <EI5GTB> roughly..
[12:16] <SpeedEvil> It's all to do with the sectional density.
[12:16] <SpeedEvil> A needle of uranium and a weather balloon are drastically different.
[12:16] <SpeedEvil> However.
[12:16] <SpeedEvil> 100Km or so is a not insane number
[12:17] <EI5GTB> i see, i lay in bed last night thinking of the possibility of using weather baloons as launch platforms
[12:17] <EI5GTB> but they dont get you aql the way, do they..
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> Not really.
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> They are utterly irrelevant in terms of delta-v.
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> Where they help massively for small rockets is drag.
[12:17] <EI5GTB> true..
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> They get you over 95%+ of the atmosphere.
[12:18] <EI5GTB> launching from 30km has to be better than from the ground..
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> Not much actually.
[12:18] <EI5GTB> oh?
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> If you've got a large rocket, it's almost irrelevant.
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> Where large is >>several tons.
[12:18] <EI5GTB> ah
[12:18] <EI5GTB> well, im talking...a rocket that weighs..5 kgmaybe?
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> If you're under a ton, then the atmospheric drag really, really hurts.
[12:19] <EI5GTB> i see
[12:19] <SpeedEvil> You basically end up with a substantial fraction of the first stage to pushing you up at mach 1 to 10-20Km.
[12:19] <EI5GTB> it would still be interesting to launch a rocket from a balon...just to see how high you could get.
[12:19] <edmoore> I'd want to get above 100km to have an orbital decay small enough to be useful
[12:19] <edmoore> for any realy practical shape you come up with
[12:19] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - I was using 100km for the 'n prize'
[12:20] <EI5GTB> what kind of decay you talking? 1km day?
[12:20] <SpeedEvil> which is 10 orbits of a quite dense thing.
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[12:20] <edmoore> oh we'll have to be higher than that for the n-prize
[12:20] <edmoore> you'd never get 9 orbits at 100km
[12:20] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[12:20] <EI5GTB> hmm
[12:20] <SpeedEvil> You're going to make me dig out my rocketry books aren't you :)
[12:21] Action: SpeedEvil goes and computes.
[12:21] <EI5GTB> haha
[12:21] <EI5GTB> lets presume we launched from the equator...
[12:21] <EI5GTB> that aughta help...
[12:21] <SpeedEvil> In practice.
[12:21] <edmoore> we have our own books and we trust them, thank you very much :)
[12:22] <SpeedEvil> For n-prize, you probably want to shoot for a rather high orbit, so you can miss somewhat and still get to orbit.
[12:22] <EI5GTB> heh
[12:22] <EI5GTB> spose
[12:22] <EI5GTB> aim high, shoot low
[12:22] <SpeedEvil> Though too high complicates comms.
[12:22] <EI5GTB> naw
[12:22] <EI5GTB> ill take care of that..
[12:22] <EI5GTB> :P
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> In some ways - it makes it easier in others.
[12:23] <EI5GTB> the only difficuult part, is generating keplerian elements..
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> that's not difficult.
[12:24] <EI5GTB> orly?
[12:24] <SpeedEvil> Oh - you mean to track it?
[12:24] <EI5GTB> yea
[12:24] <EI5GTB> how would you go about generating keplers?
[12:24] <SpeedEvil> A) GPS on the balloon.
[12:24] <edmoore> we won't be getting a precise circular orbit, for sure, so we will have to push a bit higher
[12:25] <SpeedEvil> B) GPS on the rocket
[12:25] <SpeedEvil> at least the first stage
[12:25] <EI5GTB> yaw pitch sensors?
[12:25] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: you have access to the sort of GPS units that ordinary people don't, I assume
[12:25] <EI5GTB> accelerometers?
[12:25] <SpeedEvil> EI5GTB: accelerometers help yes, but the nice ones cost more than the budget.
[12:25] <EI5GTB> i see
[12:26] <EI5GTB> ebay?
[12:26] <EI5GTB> ::
[12:26] <EI5GTB> P
[12:26] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: I was assuming a scratch-built or moderately hacked one.
[12:26] <EI5GTB> welkl, at this stage your talking 9600 bps downlink
[12:26] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: for example, the hammerhead chipset - as used in the iphone - is not smart enough to implement the limits. The limits are done on the host CPU.
[12:26] <EI5GTB> and a 1200 bps uplink for pussing red buttons
[12:26] <edmoore> EI5GTB: no collection of sensors or there own will give you enough info. To get the accuracy you need from cheap sensors (rather than massive ring laser gyros, say) you need some fairly sophisticaed sensor fusion algorithm
[12:27] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: that's interesting
[12:27] <EI5GTB> well, we've got time...
[12:27] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: if you can make one good for orbit, we will buy it off you for lots
[12:27] <SpeedEvil> Also some GPSs are probably hackable.
[12:28] <EI5GTB> whats the prob with gpss?
[12:28] <SpeedEvil> For example, the garmin GPS-12 has a 386ex16
[12:28] <EI5GTB> the fact some dont work aboive 60,000 ft?
[12:28] <edmoore> EI5GTB: they're limited to 60,000 feet AND 515m/s
[12:28] <EI5GTB> not all!!
[12:28] <edmoore> but also most of the estimation filters wouldn't be able to cope with orbital dynamics
[12:28] <EI5GTB> i know a few that arent..
[12:28] <edmoore> EI5GTB: we do too, of course - how else do we track opur balloons?
[12:29] <EI5GTB> but would gpd work at 80km?
[12:29] <EI5GTB> gps*
[12:29] <EI5GTB> like, practically?
[12:29] <EI5GTB> what height does the gps constelation orbit at?
[12:29] <edmoore> dunno, some number of thousand km
[12:30] <edmoore> it's fine for LEO in theory, it's just a question of implimenting a receiver
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> 40000
[12:30] <EI5GTB> wow
[12:30] <EI5GTB> ok
[12:30] <EI5GTB> it bout to work at 100km then
[12:30] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: no
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> The hardware limits are probably not too bad.
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> err
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> yead
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> 20000ish
[12:30] <edmoore> they orbit much nearer than that
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> 12h orbits.
[12:30] <edmoore> they're not geosync or even close
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> They are halfway there.
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> Anyway.
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> The hardware limits are probably not too bad.
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> Worst case, and you can only use the satellites coming towards you.
[12:31] <EI5GTB> gps, they're orbiters..
[12:32] <edmoore> but anyway, designing a gps for orbit would require quite a lot of knowledge and understanding, and is probably a bit beyond the bounds of what we can do for the n-prize
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> This gives you 2000m/s , plus the 4000m/s doppler to get it to the other end of the normal band
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> which is quite close.
[12:32] <edmoore> but if someone actually designs one (rather than just talks about it) then there would be a lot of value in that.
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: tehre are some things that make it rather easier.
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: For example, I assume you don't care at all about absolute position - +-100m would be just fine.
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> (as long as it gave nice vectors)
[12:33] <EI5GTB> i know a guy knows a lot about gps
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> I have a GPS test board some way up my stack, to go with my little CPU board.
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> But that's probably not very soon.
[12:34] <EI5GTB> the only problem i can see about building a gps reciever, apart from time....is size
[12:34] <EI5GTB> commercial ones can fit every thing in nice smt chips
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> EI5GTB: I'd be talking about - if I ever did it - a package about 20*18*10mm
[12:35] <EI5GTB> hmm
[12:35] <EI5GTB> easier said than done..
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> My main CPU board is about 20*18*5mm, with micro, RAM and SD card.
[12:36] <EI5GTB> nice
[12:36] <EI5GTB> very nice
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> I need to get the design finalised, and it off to a board house.
[12:38] <EI5GTB> cool
[12:39] <EI5GTB> is it just a design? or do you have a prototype?
[12:39] <SpeedEvil> It's hard to prototype.
[12:39] <EI5GTB> not if you have a VERY steady hand :P
[12:39] <SpeedEvil> The CPU comes in a tiny SMD package
[12:39] <EI5GTB> what trype of cpu?
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> stm32
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> 32 bit ARM, with no MMU
[12:40] <EI5GTB> bice
[12:40] <EI5GTB> nice
[12:41] <EI5GTB> seems a versitile little chip..
[12:41] <SpeedEvil> Should also be a handy module for balloons.
[12:42] <EI5GTB> yea
[12:42] <edmoore> EI5GTB: do you want to see the flight computer we made for nova 6 and 7?
[12:43] <EI5GTB> ooh, yea
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[12:45] <edmoore> http://www.flickr.com/photos/25036435@N00/2501001643/ , http://www.flickr.com/photos/25036435@N00/2501001535/in/photostream/
[12:46] <EI5GTB> nice
[12:46] <EI5GTB> har to beat diy tho
[12:46] <EI5GTB> but itl looks like a nice little package
[12:48] <edmoore> that is diy
[12:48] <edmoore> + £20 on a pcb fab house, granted
[12:49] <SpeedEvil> DIY - done well these days looks pretty much like pro.
[12:51] <EI5GTB> spose
[12:52] <edmoore> spending the price of a new beers for a fabbed pcb is money well spent - it makes development and construction a lot easier
[12:52] <SpeedEvil> Though is a bitch if it doesn't work.
[12:52] <SpeedEvil> And adds delays.
[12:53] <edmoore> especially when you have to hand solder everything, like, say, the tiny pitch connector to a telit module, having solder resist is almost a must
[12:53] <SpeedEvil> There are ways to work round that.
[12:54] <SpeedEvil> (the delays due to errors)
[12:55] <edmoore> yeah - you wanna triple check the pcb obviously, but bodge-wires are your friend
[12:56] <edmoore> EI5GTB: have you ever done any pcb design?
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> bodge wires, and handy places to place them on any bits you have the least doubt on.
[12:58] <edmoore> yeah - normally vias for us
[12:58] <EI5GTB> naw, well, the last pcb i done....i was 13 i think
[12:59] <edmoore> EI5GTB: download yourself eagle and start playing
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[13:00] <edmoore> you won't look back
[13:00] <robert1971> Wow nice PCB! Did you design it in eagle?
[13:00] <edmoore> yep
[13:00] <edmoore> we're designing the version 1.2 currently
[13:00] <edmoore> switching to micro sd card and uses the space gained for a load of extra stuff
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> PCB works too.
[13:00] <EI5GTB> well, im currently trying to figure out avr chips
[13:00] <edmoore> battery monitoring/charging, built in radio, pressure sensing and so on.
[13:00] <robert1971> How did you get the PCB printed?
[13:01] <edmoore> http://www.olimex.com/pcb/index.html - very reasonable prices and quite fast too
[13:02] <edmoore> and they accept eagle files directly
[13:02] <edmoore> a very positive and painless experience all in all
[13:09] <SpeedEvil> 'pcb' is a confusingly named PCB design program open-source.
[13:10] <robert1971> I have to say that is pretty impressive. How did you solder all those components? Do you use a solder oven or is that all by hand.
[13:10] <edmoore> having use it though, and despite a general fondness for OS stuff, i'll be sticking with eagle
[13:10] <edmoore> by hand - a fine tip on a decent soldering iron helped a lot
[13:11] <edmoore> and with a decent pcb with solderesist, bridges are minimised
[13:11] <edmoore> though we always have solder wick on hand - you can drag solder down the side of an IC then wick up the bridges
[13:11] <edmoore> works a treat
[13:11] <edmoore> but if you pick about the right amount of solder, you tend not to get bridges anyway
[13:12] <edmoore> it's very satisfying once you get the knack after a few tries
[13:12] <robert1971> Some of those compents look bloody small on that board
[13:13] <robert1971> Are those surface mount capacitors / resistors that look microscopic
[13:13] <edmoore> yep
[13:13] <edmoore> but with only two ends they're easy enough to solder
[13:13] <edmoore> oh, get a flux pen too
[13:14] <edmoore> it's all suprisingly easy if you have a decent solder and some flux
[13:14] <EI5GTB> and patience
[13:14] <robert1971> The prices are very good as you say
[13:14] <robert1971> I may have a go at a pcb when I'm done at the breadboard stage.
[13:15] <robert1971> Still tinkering
[13:16] <edmoore> it's worth it
[13:16] <edmoore> but yeah, breadboarding is very helpful, although can cause problems of its own
[13:16] <edmoore> high speed spi can get swamped by the capacitance between the plat conductor strips in breadboard
[13:17] <edmoore> at school i breadboarded a circuit which didn't work sitting on the desk, but did work when i lifted in six inches off the desk
[13:17] <edmoore> it*
[13:27] <robert1971> Anyone know any good suppliers of expanded pollystyreen(sp?). Or anything else that is suitable to make a flight box out of?
[13:28] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: hmm - I get 2m/s^2 accelleration at 100Km due to drag for a 20g body with a 16 square centimeter frontal area. Hadn't realised it was quite that bad.
[13:28] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: your local builders merchants
[13:28] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: or better - for the good stuff.
[13:28] <SpeedEvil> http://www.epphobbies.com/
[13:29] <SpeedEvil> is that a valid site?
[13:29] <SpeedEvil> That's polythene foam. It bounces!
[13:29] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: we use that blue polystyrene stuff from builders merchants
[13:29] <edmoore> it's a bit denser that normal expanded polystyrene, but it actuakly machines very well
[13:30] <edmoore> if you make a blanket of that and wrap the whole thing in a few layers of space blanket, it'll be snugasabug
[13:32] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: the EPP stuff is nice.
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> You can jump up and down on it and it bends not snaps.
[13:33] <edmoore> looking at that for 100km rocket
[13:33] <edmoore> not bought any yet though to play with
[13:33] <edmoore> but a nice way of 'potting' the avionics
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> For my UAV, I was thinking of having the CPU inside a egg of light fiberglass, inside a large egg of EPP, inside another fiberglass shell.
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> This may give you an idea of my initial confidence in flight control.
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> Hmm. You need to go all the way up to 200Km to get 100m/s/day.
[13:36] <Shanuson> speedevil, are you sure with 2m/s²? thats a fifth G
[13:36] <edmoore> the problem with control theory and 'cool things' is that safety of initial testing seems to be inversely proportional to coolness.
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> Shanuson: If my atmosphere model is right
[13:37] <edmoore> Shanuson: using free molecular flow of continuum flow?
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: yes. I'm engineering it to survive a full-power smash into the ground.
[13:37] <edmoore> sorry, SpeedEvil, not Shanuson
[13:37] <edmoore> or continuum*
[13:37] <Shanuson> nP
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> I was assuming stupid - Cd of 1.
[13:37] <edmoore> what maths did you use?
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> f=a*cd*rho*v^2
[13:38] <edmoore> ha
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> gave me 28n/m^2
[13:38] <edmoore> yeah that works on the ground subsonically for normal shapes
[13:38] <edmoore> but totally meaningless in this scenario
[13:39] <edmoore> flow is free molecular, highly supersonic, that won't even get you close within OoM
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> Hmm. I should have dug out my copy of sutton.
[13:39] <edmoore> I am up on my maths on this atm as I've been modelling initial entry for exomars
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> Can't I simpy assume it cancels all of the incoming airs momentum?
[13:40] <SpeedEvil> and accellerates it to the speed of the body?
[13:40] <edmoore> if it's a blunt body, that'll get you closer
[13:40] <edmoore> but the transition between free molecular and continuum is a function of knudsen number, and I don't know how big a thing you're modelling
[13:41] <SpeedEvil> 4cm sphere.
[13:42] <edmoore> and that in turn governs shock formation, if any, which will have a drastic effect on your numbers
[13:42] <SpeedEvil> Hang on - isnt' the above exactly that - mass flow per unit area times v*cd?
[13:44] <edmoore> that bit's roughly ok, it's Cd that swings about drastically
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> I was assuming I could neglect shocks as it was going mach 30ish.
[13:45] <edmoore> no, i would not say you could do that
[13:45] <edmoore> I think the ntrs will be your friend on this subject
[13:46] <SpeedEvil> I should dig out the actual dead tree I've got on the subject.
[13:47] <edmoore> RPE?
[13:47] <SpeedEvil> that, and another one that I'm blanking on the title on.
[13:48] <edmoore> Hoerner is the starting place for most things aerodynamic.
[13:48] <edmoore> but not many people have copies of it, it's the bible, but a rare bible.
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - this is basic stuff.
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> I mean - basic stuff for space texts.
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[13:54] <SpeedEvil> (WH smiths were having a 'cheapest book of 3 free, and you could order in' I needed 2 expensive books for uni anyway.
[13:54] <SpeedEvil> Hence sutton :)
[13:57] <edmoore> RPE is a great book
[14:01] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: if you want to get nearer, assume Cd = 2
[14:01] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: are you still a student?
[14:12] <robert1971> Thanks for the info on packaging. Will have a look at the local builders merchants on the way home. I wonder if B&Q do something on this line...
[14:14] <edmoore> yeah, in the insulation section they might
[14:14] <edmoore> also some flourescent orange ripstop nylon is your friend
[14:14] <gordonjcp> my local fabric place has that
[14:15] <gordonjcp> I was going to buy some for kite fabric
[14:15] <edmoore> super high vis, waterproof, perfect for parachutes or covering things up on the payload
[14:15] <edmoore> where spaceblank can't be used (cos it blocks rf) we normally use ripstop. In each case over some foam, or whatever
[14:16] <edmoore> I was convinced of it when we recovered jcoxon's pegasus 5 by spotting it from about 400m away
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[14:16] <edmoore> because there was ludicrously bright ornage on a green field
[14:18] <edmoore> there ya go
[14:18] <edmoore> http://www.flickr.com/photos/25036435@N00/478718290/in/set-72157600160879866/
[14:18] <edmoore> really sticks out http://www.flickr.com/photos/25036435@N00/478718274/in/set-72157600160879866/
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: no, unfortunately, I dropped out due to health reasons. Was doing CS/maths/physics
[14:20] <edmoore> sounds pretty hardcore
[14:20] <edmoore> I only asked so I could figure out what version of sutton you got :)
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: though the physics department wasn't great - there were two professors, and 10ish in the year.
[14:20] <edmoore> you can normally date people's undergraduate period pretty well from their copy of sutton
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[14:20] <SpeedEvil> 5 i think.
[14:20] <edmoore> wow tiny - where was that?
[14:20] <edmoore> it's been 7 since 2001
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> University of Stirling.
[14:21] <edmoore> iirc
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> It may have been 7, I'm unsure.
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[14:22] <edmoore> robert1971 and gordonjcp that second picture should convince you of the usefullness of a bright ornage chute - it really did convince me.
[14:22] <edmoore> for our dual-stage design (drogue then main) the drogue will be a streamer made of the same stuff, for really high vis
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> Strobe?
[14:23] <edmoore> not so useful on a summer's day
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> Prolly not for daytime use though.
[14:23] <edmoore> but we did put some bike lights on nova7
[14:29] <jcoxon> hey all
[14:30] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: Stirling, when was that?
[14:33] <SpeedEvil> ~95
[14:34] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: ah right
[14:34] <gordonjcp> so unlikely to know mquin then ;-)
[14:34] <gordonjcp> i can't even remember what I was doing in '95
[14:42] <Shanuson> maybe someone here find it interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH6XaS69vOY
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[14:51] <edmoore> I'm interested to see how it goes down
[14:53] <Shanuson> its nice too the some rocket fly like an airplain
[14:55] <edmoore> yeah
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[14:57] <EI5GTB> evening all, hows the plan to take over the world coming along?
[14:58] <edmoore> not evening
[14:58] <Shanuson> not good today, to hot out there
[14:58] <EI5GTB> heh
[14:59] <EI5GTB> im heading off to an army barracs now, how many guns do ya need\/
[14:59] <EI5GTB> ?
[15:00] <Shanuson> if you could grep an airconditioner i'm more interested
[15:01] <robert1971> Pissing down here in Leeds
[15:02] <Shanuson> sunshine and 33°C here
[15:02] <robert1971> I'm going out of here for a bit or i'll never get any work done.
[15:03] <robert1971> Shame you cant read a log of the dicussion later
[15:03] <edmoore> same
[15:03] <edmoore> c++ troubles
[15:03] <robert1971> Ooo..
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[15:09] <EI5GTB> well, its cloudy here
[15:09] <EI5GTB> jnust after thunder
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[16:26] <robert1971> Can't stay away
[16:27] <jcoxon> robert1971, there are logs:
[16:27] <jcoxon> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/zeusbot/
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[17:12] <robert1971> jcoxon: Great !!! Would be even better if they were in cronological order ls -lt ;-)
[17:12] <Shanuson> well there is an order
[17:14] <robert1971> True True I guess it's the interface that creates the index which uses alphabetical order.
[17:19] <jcoxon> pah, details
[17:19] <jcoxon> its the worst hack ever
[17:19] <robert1971> The log is great at least I can have a quick butchers every now and then esp. if I want to go back to something in the conversation.
[17:20] <jcoxon> one day i'll actually make it work
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> One day I land on the moon in a craft of my own devising.
[17:21] <robert1971> some much to do... I'm off home in a minute via B&Q to look at some insulation
[17:21] Action: SpeedEvil needs to get a concrete todo list and work through it.
[17:22] <robert1971> Never thought insulation would be exciting
[17:22] <jcoxon> it really isn't
[17:22] <SpeedEvil> I dunno. I was considering some vacuum insulation panels.
[17:23] <jcoxon> i don't like making payloads
[17:23] <jcoxon> don't have a hot wire cutter
[17:23] <jcoxon> really need to make one
[17:23] <SpeedEvil> Breadknife++
[17:24] <robert1971> Are they really that good. I found a razor sharp knife and the kitchen table quite good sofar
[17:24] <robert1971> I haven't needed bends yet
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> It depends.
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> With hot-wire cutters you can make more intricate shapes.
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> even 3D
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> http://www.mauve.plus.com/Chinese-Lantern.jpg
[17:25] <gleblanc> Concrete is quite fun
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> Forex
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> the base cast in one bit using a mould made from slicing up a block of polystyrene, and pouring concrete into the void
[17:25] <robert1971> I suppose one could concieve making a 3D insulation box for the camers. Not that I'm going too
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - the need for complex shapes on a camera box is dubious.
[17:26] <Shanuson> i used a hot wire cutter with the isolation of our home, it's much better than a knife, if your hand is steady enough
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> Just be careful - some foams put out _really_ nasty crap.
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> polystyrene is fine
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> PUR/PIR is not
[17:28] <robert1971> Chat later when i get home...
[17:28] <robert1971> ttfn
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[17:44] <edmoore> jcoxon:
[17:44] <edmoore> ping
[17:44] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[17:44] <edmoore> so I have a q
[17:44] <jcoxon> shoot
[17:45] <edmoore> I'm building this server, it'll be quite manly (core 2 duo, 4 gigs of ram), i'll probably have it running at churchill
[17:45] <jcoxon> uhuh
[17:45] <edmoore> that has a 1gig/day limit on traffic to outside cam
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[17:45] <edmoore> unlimited within cam
[17:45] <edmoore> you know the deal
[17:46] <jcoxon> college rules
[17:46] <edmoore> Can I set up a tunnel through srcf to circumvent that? so say we chose that to host a bunch of dynamic content (like a balloon mission) and tonnes of people wanted to use it
[17:47] <edmoore> like a script on srcf that makes calls on my server to do all the grunt work
[17:47] <jcoxon> but srcf isn't in cam
[17:47] <jcoxon> i don't think
[17:47] <edmoore> I thought it was?
[17:49] <edmoore> lemme research
[17:50] <jcoxon> i reckon they'd cotton on eventually
[17:50] <jcoxon> oh wait they are connected
[17:51] <jcoxon> connected to the Internet via the Cambridge University Data Network (CUDN)
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[18:05] <edmoore> no i mean doing it legitly
[18:05] <edmoore> saves their server
[18:05] <jcoxon> hmmmm you'd need to aks
[18:05] <jcoxon> ask
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[19:25] Action: robert1971 thinks B&Q is crap for insulation
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[19:25] Action: EI5GTB got his avr programmer to work, the lcd now says test :)
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[19:30] <SpeedEvil> Yay!
[19:30] <SpeedEvil> rob: it varies.
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[19:30] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: there are big ones and little ones. Only the big ones have any rigid insulation IME
[19:30] <SpeedEvil> http://epphobbies.com/ did I mention?
[19:30] <robert1971> Opps got dumped out
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[19:31] <robert1971> Yep I like that stuff
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> I have one that makes up the hull of my UAV.
[19:31] <Hiena> Good evening!
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> Of course, I've got to cut away the extra bits.
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/POLYSTYRENE-MANNEQUIN-HEAD-DISPLAY-WIGS-GLASSES-BN_W0QQitemZ360073142151QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item360073142151&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318 Hollow out one of these.
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[20:06] <robert1971> Got the wife sorted... Cup of tea watching some fashon stuff on tv ... Now I can write my first ever avr program and put it on the dev board wish me luck
[20:07] <EI5GTB> robert1971, im about to write my first ever too :P
[20:07] <edmoore_> I'm watching the fashion stuff too
[20:08] <robert1971> Had to install bascom avr to get the driver for my USB-ISP-Prog_1 programmer. How annoying !
[20:08] <edmoore_> and playing with virtual box, which is really very impressive - as good as the cost versions for sure
[20:08] <edmoore_> robert1971: eek
[20:08] Nick change: edmoore_ -> edmoore
[20:08] <EI5GTB> robert1971, i had to learn german to use my programmer :P
[20:09] <robert1971> Ha ha . THat would be it for me
[20:09] <robert1971> Give me C any day
[20:09] <edmoore> I definitely prefer embedded c
[20:09] <robert1971> What is the underscore stuff at the end of nicknames for?
[20:09] <edmoore> like c++ is way too high level for me
[20:09] <EI5GTB> yea, naw, im wrinting in c
[20:10] <EI5GTB> but to send it to the device, i have to use a german application..
[20:10] <edmoore> std::stringstream is this horrible wierd scary thing
[20:10] <robert1971> Have you tried win-avr
[20:10] <edmoore> i'd rather plan how many byte registers I'll need in minute detail
[20:10] <EI5GTB> robert1971, yea, it wont directly program my device tho
[20:11] <EI5GTB> and i cant figure out how to make it compile to hex
[20:11] <edmoore> the underscore stuff is what lots of clients do if you accidently loose connection, and try to log in, but the server hasn't timed old you out yet, and you cannot exist with the same name
[20:11] <robert1971> Ahh I thought there was a good reason behind that
[20:12] <edmoore> if that happens to you, '/nick <username>' will make you that username
[20:12] <icez> in really bad cases you can see yourself talk from the past ;)
[20:12] <robert1971> going to have to reboot apparently ... can't Bill sort this out .. Give me linux any day !!!
[20:12] <edmoore> robert1971: virtualbox!
[20:12] <edmoore> I am really really impressed with it
[20:13] <robert1971> I'll have a look
[20:13] <robert1971> be right back
[20:13] <edmoore> I've got it to let me run solidworks on my mac
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[20:14] <edmoore> but it runs any platform on any platform, and the ubuntu server i'm building will have a lot more grunt than my laptop, so I'm tempted tp upgrade its purpose slightly to a workstation
[20:15] <edmoore> right, off out. bbl
[20:15] Nick change: edmoore -> edmoore|away
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[20:19] <EI5GTB> ZOMG i made an led flash
[20:20] <EI5GTB> to to go eat some celebration ice cream
[20:20] <EI5GTB> fuck but im gonna get fat :P
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[20:20] <robert1971> back
[20:20] <robert1971> dam windows
[20:20] <Shanuson> maybe you should only celebrate the big brakethroughs with icecream
[20:21] <EI5GTB> robert1971, i got an led to flash :)
[20:21] <EI5GTB> possibly
[20:21] <EI5GTB> naw
[20:21] <EI5GTB> i like ice cream
[20:21] <EI5GTB> bbiab
[20:21] <robert1971> Thats going to be my first program too
[20:21] <robert1971> mainly cos it's 4 lines long
[20:21] <robert1971> On the C0 pin ?
[20:22] <edmoore|away> fnoble and I did a seriously big and silly dance when we got an led to flash on the badger board
[20:22] <Shanuson> but your talk about icecream make me hungry, so i'll go and get some too
[20:24] MetaMorfoziS (n=avr@3e44b173.adsl.enternet.hu) joined #highaltitude.
[20:32] <robert1971> Humm
[20:34] <robert1971> I have a usb programmer, it says its a USB_ISP_PROG_1 anyone used one of these?
[20:39] <EI5GTB> yum
[20:40] <EI5GTB> i had rice pudding instead
[20:40] <EI5GTB> but its almost as good as ice cream,
[20:42] <Shanuson> i dont like rice pudding :/
[20:47] <EI5GTB> :O
[20:48] Action: SpeedEvil has a profuse rasberry harvest ATM.
[20:49] <SpeedEvil> 50% raspberry, 50% yogurt, 5% sugar. Mmmm.
[20:49] <SpeedEvil> (plain yogurt)
[20:50] <Shanuson> you mean 10 parts raspberry, 10 parts yogurt and one part sugar?
[20:52] <EI5GTB> thats 21 parts?
[20:52] <EI5GTB> wow
[20:53] <Shanuson> hm 21 parts or 105% *g*
[21:03] Action: robert1971 is struggeling to get the usb isp programmer recognised
[21:09] <Shanuson> gn8
[21:09] Shanuson (n=Peter@p54A9559E.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[21:10] <jnd> (21:09:51) edmoore: like c++ is way too high level for me <--- and C is too high level for me :)
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[21:26] <robert1971> Any one recomend a good ISP programmer supported under winavr avrdude?
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[21:50] <natrium42> hi
[21:50] <icez> hi
[21:52] <jnd> robert1971: http://www.simonqian.com/en/AVRminiProg/
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[22:21] <jcoxon> evening all
[22:21] <jcoxon> ping natrium42
[22:21] <icez> hey jcoxon
[22:22] <jcoxon> hey icez
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[22:28] <robert1971> Bloody avr isp programming
[22:28] <robert1971> Got source compiling just fine
[22:29] <robert1971> Going to order a parallel isp programmer. I think this will be supported under avrdude
[22:31] <jcoxon> the joys of programming microcontrollers
[22:32] <EI5GTB> im doing great
[22:32] <wickerwaka> pic ftw!
[22:32] <EI5GTB> io know have 3 leds flasing in all sorts of nice patterns
[22:32] <EI5GTB> AVR FTW
[22:35] <EI5GTB> PIC FTL
[22:35] <EI5GTB> right, bed tine
[22:35] <EI5GTB> night
[22:35] <jcoxon> night
[22:39] <jnd> yeah PIC FTL :p
[22:40] <edmoore|away> doesn't avr-isp run under avrdude?
[22:40] <edmoore|away> or is the usb-asp?
[22:40] <edmoore|away> too many tlas
[22:40] <jnd> show me any pic programmer for linux with <10 parts
[22:45] <jcoxon> hey edmoore|away
[22:45] <edmoore|away> heya
[22:45] Nick change: edmoore|away -> edmoore
[22:45] <edmoore> installing ubuntu server in virtualbox
[22:46] <edmoore> i must say I've found it slightly easier than slackware...
[22:46] <jcoxon> haha
[22:46] <jcoxon> unix pansy
[22:48] <robert1971> Can't get the @@@@ing programmer to do its stuff. Keeps belly aching.. Are you guys using USB programmers or parallel port jobies?
[22:52] <edmoore> Gary McKinnon looks a bit like an alien himself
[23:01] <robert1971> And there I thought that I would be off and away with avr programming tonight. // programmer ordered
[23:02] <edmoore> robert1971: usb
[23:02] <edmoore> the usb-asp I think it's called
[23:02] <edmoore> but that's only cos my laptop doesn't too parallel
[23:02] <robert1971> I have the usb isp
[23:03] <robert1971> does it work with win avr?
[23:03] <robert1971> avcdude?
[23:03] <robert1971> avrdude even?
[23:04] <edmoore> couldn't tell you, sorry
[23:04] <edmoore> jnd might know
[23:04] <edmoore> he's on #avr too
[23:29] <jcoxon> guys, what are the usb voltages?
[23:29] <jcoxon> i know that vcc is 5v 500mA
[23:29] <jcoxon> but what are the data lines?
[23:31] <wickerwaka> data lines are 3.3 volts, kinda
[23:31] <jcoxon> cool
[23:31] <jcoxon> very cool
[23:32] <wickerwaka> 1 is >2.8V on D+, <0.3V on D-
[23:32] <wickerwaka> 0 is >2.8V on D-, <0.3V on D+
[23:33] <soneil> finally. with 27 minutes to spare, I learnt something new today. :)
[23:34] <wickerwaka> http://www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb2.htm
[23:39] <edmoore> the coolest cutdown ever
[23:39] <edmoore> http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/07/spray-on-laser.html
[23:44] Laurenceb (n=Laurence@host86-142-87-234.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[23:44] <Laurenceb> greets
[23:47] <edmoore> yo
[23:47] <Laurenceb> hi ed, hows life?
[23:48] <edmoore> not bad, got in to work this morn to find my overnight sim was garbage
[23:48] <edmoore> but otherwise all is well
[23:48] <edmoore> you?
[23:50] <Laurenceb> utter chaos :-/
[23:51] <Laurenceb> been trying to install the kitchen for 3 days now
[23:51] <Laurenceb> basically we've got 2 second hand kitchens and I'm cannibalising them for parts.. it seemed a good idea at first
[23:53] <Laurenceb> hmmm I'm getting a weird error from my bootloader application, "NTVDM has encountered a system error" any ideas ?
[23:55] <Laurenceb> oh... helps to connect the serial line properly
[23:58] Action: Laurenceb likes bootloaders
[23:59] <Laurenceb> well now it works anyway
[23:59] <edmoore> lol, sorry was on phone at least it's sorted
[00:00] --- Fri Aug 1 2008