highaltitude.log.20080730

[00:00] <soneil> as little as possible. I monitor datacenters, which mostly involves praying things don't beep
[00:01] <EI5GTB> i see
[00:01] <EI5GTB> sounds...interesting :P
[00:02] <fnoble> jnd, we wont be flying anything for 3 weeks or so :(
[00:03] <jnd> at least you have time to get the SW & HW working :)
[00:04] <EI5GTB> soneil, right, im gonna head to bed now, we'll chat more later about lancing a balloon in EI, and possibly forming a group.....but anywayt, chat later
[00:04] <EI5GTB> night
[00:04] <soneil> www.iaa.ie/library_download.jsp?libraryID=283 that's the most interesting I can find. it seems to indicate you should keep things under 1.5Kg to minimize trouble
[00:04] <EI5GTB> i see..
[00:04] <soneil> it doesn't apply to balloons, but the weight limits & distances from airports seem to match up with common sense pretty well
[00:05] <fnoble> jnd, we are all away from cambridge for 3 weeks, but hopefully i can get the new board design done while im away
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[00:06] <EI5GTB> soneil, i read a document conering actual abloons once...ill dig it out tommorrow
[00:06] <EI5GTB> night
[00:06] <jnd> fnoble: ok so enjoy the holiday :)
[00:06] <fnoble> jnd, thanks :)
[00:07] Action: jnd goes back to the avr programming
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[00:11] <robert1971> Night Night
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[00:32] <fnoble> night all
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[03:09] <jiffe88> well we've tried 2 of the lassen IQs, mine and a friend of mine's, it doesn't see more than 2 satellites
[03:24] <jiffe88> ah sweet, it finally picked up 2 more
[03:34] <jiffe88> the altitude reading from this thing seems really flaky, jumping all over the place
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[08:47] <robert1971> Morning all
[08:56] <robert1971> Looks like I'm the only one awake, and at work at 8.50am BST
[08:57] <soneil> I've usually fallen back asleep by now :/
[08:58] <icez> 1 am here :P so sleep time for me, but some of the folks should be waking up really soon :P
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[09:22] <gordonjcp> morning
[09:22] <gordonjcp> robert1971: I was awake then, but I was standing in a coffee shop talking about bikes with the owner
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[09:28] <jcoxon> morning all
[09:28] <SpeedEvil> No it's not.
[09:29] Action: SpeedEvil wanders off for coffee, after which time it might be.
[09:29] <edmoore> morning jcoxon
[09:29] <natrium42> it's only 4:30 am
[09:29] <natrium42> not even bedtime yet
[09:30] <jcoxon> haha
[09:30] <jcoxon> tis another day
[09:32] <jcoxon> edmoore, there aren't really pictures
[09:32] <jcoxon> its just the test image
[09:33] <edmoore> you need a webcam then
[09:33] <jcoxon> yup
[09:33] <jcoxon> will go shopping at lunch for a break
[09:34] <jcoxon> oh and i'm happy to launch on the weekend rather then the weekday
[09:34] <edmoore> that might be better
[09:35] <edmoore> but still not sure about badger
[09:36] <jcoxon> it was more i wanted a seperate system transmitting rtty
[09:36] <jcoxon> my radio is going to be used up doing packet and sstv
[09:36] <jcoxon> i've got gsm working
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[09:43] <edmoore> cool - well a good robust mechanical implimentation of the antenna is what it's all about, I would argue
[09:44] <edmoore> and a decent soldering iron helps make good attachments to rf connectors...
[09:45] <jcoxon> haha
[09:45] <jcoxon> once exams are finished i'll splash out
[09:45] <jcoxon> i haven't soldered for quite a while - lots of software work
[09:47] <jcoxon> edmoore, do you guys still get insurance for your launches?
[09:47] <edmoore> nope
[09:53] <jcoxon> okay well i'll start aiming for a launch around 8/9th August
[09:53] <jcoxon> you free?
[09:55] <edmoore> jcoxon: is that next weekend?
[09:55] <jcoxon> not this weekend but the weekend afterwards
[09:57] <edmoore> yeah
[09:57] <edmoore> that sounds fine then
[09:57] <jcoxon> coolio
[09:58] <edmoore> weather dependent, one imagines
[09:58] <jcoxon> of course
[09:58] <edmoore> oh I could get x5
[09:58] <edmoore> gotta be cheaper than the ludicrous amount I'm spending on petrol atm
[09:58] <jcoxon> x5?
[09:58] <jcoxon> the bus
[09:58] <jcoxon> right
[09:58] <edmoore> the coach
[09:58] <jcoxon> hehe
[09:59] <jcoxon> yup, i'll pick you up no problem
[09:59] <jcoxon> i'll adapt my software to parse the packets rather than rtty
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[09:59] <jcoxon> so we can have online tracking
[10:00] <edmoore> online tracking proper-rocks
[10:00] <edmoore> and you have mobile broadbena
[10:00] <jcoxon> the only issue is that potentially the range is limited
[10:00] <edmoore> beans*
[10:00] <edmoore> of webcam?
[10:00] <jcoxon> no of the packet radio
[10:00] <edmoore> what's the protocol?
[10:00] <jcoxon> UHC 1200baud
[10:01] <jcoxon> UHF*
[10:03] <jcoxon> work time bbl
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[10:13] <edmoore> morning laurenceb
[10:14] <robert1971> Anyone have any suggestions for some software (free?) to draw circuit diagrams. I want to draw one for the guide I'm doing and I would rather not have to hack it in photoshop
[10:14] <edmoore> eagle
[10:15] <edmoore> eagle pcb - it's probably the most widely used circuit and pcb design tool for hobbyists on the net
[10:15] <edmoore> it's free for the limited version, which isn't very limited (it limits you in the max size of the pcb to 100mm x 80mm) and limits you to one page of schematics, which is plenty for most things
[10:16] <edmoore> it takes a tiny bit of getting used to, but there are tonnes of eagle tutorials floating about
[10:16] <robert1971> Great I'll grab a copy and have a play
[10:24] <edmoore> We designed our badger flight computer on eagle.
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[10:32] <Laurenceb> hi ed
[10:32] <Laurenceb> oop hes gone
[10:32] <Laurenceb> oh well gtg myself
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[11:24] <robert1971> edmoore: Thanks for that eagle pointer
[11:24] <edmoore> no problem - it's 'the standard' this side of spending ££££
[11:25] <edmoore> and places like sparkfun provide libraries for it of everything they sell, which is immensely helpful.
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[11:37] <Ei5GTB_> morning
[11:37] Nick change: Ei5GTB_ -> EI5GTB
[11:39] <edmoore> so it is!
[11:39] <edmoore> nor not much longer
[11:44] <soneil> don't remind me :/ I'm really regretting being awake
[11:51] <EI5GTB> heh, mornin soneil
[11:51] <soneil> morning
[11:55] <edmoore> is the Irish High Altitude society established yet then?
[11:58] <EI5GTB> haha, nope
[11:59] <EI5GTB> mabye tommorrow
[11:59] <EI5GTB> iv to catch up on work today :/ invoices to send, and photos to send and...gah...
[12:01] <EI5GTB> iv been procrastinating this last 3 days//
[12:01] <soneil> I am catching up on work. I'm getting paid to scratch various appendages right now
[12:01] <EI5GTB> sounds fun :P
[12:02] <soneil> I've been at it 6 hours already :/
[12:02] <edmoore> come again?
[12:02] <edmoore> I'm writing a driver program for a simulation I really want to run. But I really don't want to have to write this driver program.
[12:04] <edmoore> not iteresting programming, just lots of parsing of lots of wierdly formatted output files.
[12:06] <EI5GTB> programming is boring
[12:06] <EI5GTB> its thinking how the program will work is the fun part
[12:07] <edmoore> exactly
[12:08] <edmoore> You have fun ideas, but the implimentation takes time
[12:09] <EI5GTB> exactly
[12:09] <EI5GTB> its solving the problems and all that that is the real fun
[12:10] <edmoore> Well, when i make it past apprentice I might have to do less of this stuff, hopefully
[12:10] <edmoore> though i rather doubt it :)
[12:20] <EI5GTB> haha
[12:24] <edmoore> I would love to be working on our next payload now.
[12:30] <jcoxon> edmoore, same :-p
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[13:48] <EI5GTB> im in the process of draughting a letter to comreg
[13:52] <soneil> fun stuff
[13:52] <EI5GTB> indeed
[13:53] <EI5GTB> i dont know how to end it tho :(
[13:54] <EI5GTB> http://baloons.pastebin.com/d4ffb55c6
[13:54] <SpeedEvil> ask on 4chan for how to end it.
[13:54] Action: SpeedEvil looks.
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> 'high altitude >amateur< balloons'
[13:55] <EI5GTB> aha
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> maybe relevant
[13:55] <EI5GTB> yea
[13:56] <EI5GTB> amateur radio balloons?
[13:56] <SpeedEvil> or transmitters mounted on my amateur high altitude balloons
[13:56] <EI5GTB> hmm
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> Perhaps after "I am most" explain in a line who you are.
[13:58] <EI5GTB> yea..
[13:58] <EI5GTB> for the use of amateur radio transmitters high altitude amateur balloons
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> then a brief overview of what you mean to do.
[13:58] <EI5GTB> yea..
[13:58] <EI5GTB> well
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> maybe even a link to a few pictures from balloons.
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> though that might be overkill.
[13:59] <EI5GTB> im seding it as a letter
[13:59] <SpeedEvil> got a colour printer?
[13:59] <EI5GTB> nope
[13:59] <EI5GTB> b/w lazer
[14:00] <SpeedEvil> 1W for tracking beacon seems rather overenergetic.
[14:00] <edmoore> Ask for a mile and you might get an inch
[14:00] <SpeedEvil> True.
[14:00] <EI5GTB> its the industry standar..
[14:00] <EI5GTB> the 500mw 70cm backup, well, i just made that up
[14:01] <EI5GTB> i like fully redundant systems
[14:02] <SpeedEvil> 'for information on licenses, and license free bands which might be applicable to small transmitters flying on my high-altitude amateur balloons' ?
[14:02] <EI5GTB> "license free bands" best not mention that when im talking about licenced amateur stuff
[14:02] <edmoore> I've just spent 10 minutes trying to fugure out why a simulation called 'Mars Entry 3DOF' isn't giving my role pitch and yaw, like I'm used to with 'Mars Entry 6DOF'.
[14:03] <EI5GTB> theyre best kept seperat
[14:03] <edmoore> It's been a long day.
[14:03] <SpeedEvil> EI5GTB: perhaps not. If you are a licensed amateur, clarify that.
[14:03] <EI5GTB> theres your problmm
[14:03] <EI5GTB> yea
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[14:03] <SpeedEvil> Also add how many years of what experience you have, ...
[14:03] <SpeedEvil> (just one line)
[14:03] <EI5GTB> 1 :P
[14:04] <EI5GTB> dont sound too good
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> I don't know
[14:04] <EI5GTB> iv been licenced for 1 year now, im a 17 year old student working part thime as a photographer :P
[14:04] <EI5GTB> mabye leave that out ;)
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> It might almost be a positive, if the person getting the letter is interested in the field.
[14:04] <edmoore> students rule
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> I actually wouldn't leave that out.
[14:05] <edmoore> and that you're into photography is even better.
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
[14:05] <EI5GTB> y
[14:05] <edmoore> We're going to make a concerted attack on the science minister
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: using lauranceb's air-dropped parafoil, and an egg?
[14:05] Action: EI5GTB wonders if ireland has a science minister
[14:05] <edmoore> about how it's ruining the future of britians scientists and engineers
[14:05] <edmoore> re: putting a stanstead holding stack over cambridge
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: oh - did you heat yesterday that I did some searching and found the Outer Space Act applies to basically any UK citezen involved in launching an object, and is 6500 pounds to apply for a license, but educatioonal organisations are exempt from the fees?
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> hear
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> s/object/object into orbit/
[14:07] <edmoore> exempt? awesome
[14:07] <edmoore> good news
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> It was late, and I've forgotten.
[14:07] <EI5GTB> SpeedEvil, re: 1w being too much, notice its 1w ERP, so it could be 500mw into a 3db antenna
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> From the fees, not the regs :(
[14:07] <edmoore> I didn't get the xempt bit
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> EI5GTB: true
[14:08] <edmoore> Well I have confidence in the power of getting legislation changed
[14:08] <edmoore> most of it is put up because they don't know any better
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: 1986...
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> What happened in 1986
[14:08] <edmoore> ?
[14:08] <EI5GTB> so, ic reached writers block..
[14:08] <edmoore> chal?
[14:08] <EI5GTB> All the modes, powers and/or bands listed above are open to negotiations.
[14:08] <EI5GTB> now what?
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> Well - probably 1984 - when the legislation would have had to be concieved.
[14:09] <edmoore> I don't know, do tell me though
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> EI5GTB: a couple of lines explaining you are a student, what sort of pics you hope to take, class of licenses you hold.
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> EI5GTB: how you intend to win the nobel prize for photography or something.
[14:09] <EI5GTB> hmm, i see
[14:10] <EI5GTB> but i need to tell them how it is a radio experiment too..
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: I don't know I have vague recollections of something rocketry related.
[14:10] <EI5GTB> otherwise they could class it as commercial use of the amateur radio bands..
[14:11] Action: SpeedEvil blanks on a middle-east country beginning with I containingmore than 4 letters.
[14:11] <EI5GTB> iran..
[14:11] <edmoore> oh right
[14:11] <robert1971> Iraq
[14:11] <EI5GTB> oh
[14:11] <EI5GTB> more thatn..
[14:12] <SpeedEvil> Libya
[14:12] <EI5GTB> china
[14:12] <edmoore> well we'll just have to explain to them what we're doing then. Fee exemption os the main thing
[14:12] <edmoore> don't mind people visiting
[14:12] <robert1971> Israil
[14:12] <EI5GTB> aha
[14:12] <edmoore> but CU carries some weight when it comes to getting stuff done.
[14:12] <edmoore> so we'll use that if we come against barriers.
[14:13] <robert1971> israel even
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: I remember something about modular dumb rockets that ended up in libya or somewhere, and went nowhere.
[14:14] <edmoore> yes ok. this point is getting a little strained now.
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> I'm just idly wondering at this point what spurred the legislation, it has little relevance.
[14:15] <EI5GTB> i wonder is it dangerous to mention the word "craft" in the letrter?
[14:15] <edmoore> payload
[14:15] <EI5GTB> "The payload of such crafts"
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> I'd stay with balloon
[14:16] <EI5GTB> yea
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Aha.
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> OTRAG
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/otrag.htm
[14:54] <EI5GTB> http://baloons.pastebin.com/m6a5ff15b
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> "A group of four or five of us"
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> I'd phrase it at.
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> but that looks fine.
[14:57] <EI5GTB> hmm
[14:57] <EI5GTB> a small group of us
[14:58] <SpeedEvil> Thanks in anticipation. Captain Niblick the III, ...
[15:00] <soneil> those power ratings seem almost absurd?
[15:00] <EI5GTB> where?
[15:00] <EI5GTB> 1w and 500mw?
[15:00] <soneil> yeah
[15:00] <EI5GTB> 1w erp is not alot
[15:01] <EI5GTB> thats 500mw on a 3db antenna
[15:01] <soneil> they sound sane on the ground, but not at altitude. on 70cm, at 10mW, jcoxon was limited by line of site, not tx power
[15:01] <EI5GTB> well, im just going by what has been done by americans..
[15:01] <EI5GTB> but ask for a mile, get an inc
[15:01] <EI5GTB> h
[15:02] <EI5GTB> whats the point in going to all this bother if all you get is.....what you had before
[15:02] <soneil> I'd be tempted to draw a lot more parellels to the UK. the US has huge swathes of uncontrolled airspace. europe really doesn't
[15:02] <EI5GTB> hmm
[15:03] <EI5GTB> but....the uk has nothing in the rulebooks so far,.,
[15:03] <EI5GTB> brb, lunch
[15:14] <soneil> my concern with asking for too much, is that they may just dismis it out of hand. as an example of what you're asking for, 15km altitude is about 50,000ft. with distance to horizon = sqrt (1.5 * feet), you put your line-of-sight horizon about 270 miles away
[15:14] <soneil> from your current position, 270 miles covers ireland. all of it. glasgow, edinburgh, newcastle-upon-tyne, leeds, manchester, liverpool, wolverhampton ..
[15:17] <EI5GTB> well, im still convinced 1w isnt allot
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[15:17] <EI5GTB> i could go to 500mw erp?
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[15:18] <soneil> it's literally 100 times what jcoxon was functional with. I'd be really tempted to aim for a proof-of-concept, and scale up from there
[15:20] <soneil> I'd rather prove it can be done, without annoying services across half the UK, and ask for a little more once you've got a track record .. than make your name known the first try, and get laughed at when you go back for a second
[15:21] <soneil> just my opinion of course, you're the one with the license. the math just worries me
[15:21] <EI5GTB> well..
[15:21] <EI5GTB> having too low a power and loosing 300 quid worth of camera worries me,,
[15:21] <EI5GTB> along with the radios and all that
[15:22] <EI5GTB> cosidering we are allowd, by law, to put out 26dBw, without aplying for a special licence, 1dbW or less is.....very small.
[15:23] <EI5GTB> and what services across the uk would i be annoying?
[15:23] <soneil> no idea, I don't know what else lives around 70mW
[15:24] <EI5GTB> a well filterd 2m trxer would have no harmonics....and no intermod or anythin
[15:24] <soneil> ehm, 70cm
[15:24] <EI5GTB> well...nothing
[15:24] <EI5GTB> most of the 70cm band, amateur radio is primary user
[15:24] <EI5GTB> but 2m would be the primary tx frequency
[15:25] <EI5GTB> there are low power devices that are licenced for use on the "repeater inut" section of the amateur band
[15:25] <EI5GTB> but amateur radio is still the "primary user" so thiose devices have to accept all interferenced from licenced users
[15:26] <EI5GTB> so when you launch your 10mw transmitters, its actually causing more bother (presuming your using the 70cm band, and not pmr) qrming repeater across the uk
[15:27] <EI5GTB> so i cant see why there would be any bother licencing a baloon for use on proper, fully licenced frequencies
[15:33] <EI5GTB> any more comments efore its finalised?
[15:33] <soneil> well, I guess you can ask. I'd probably look into ways to scale down the power as you go up tho
[15:33] <EI5GTB> http://baloons.pastebin.com/m6d469234
[15:33] <EI5GTB> theres the latest draught
[15:33] <EI5GTB> draft*
[15:34] <EI5GTB> i dont see why i need to scale down as we go up tho, as i said, it wouldnt be causing any qrm to anyone
[15:34] <soneil> I guess there's nothing stopping you asking
[15:35] <EI5GTB> i know
[15:35] <EI5GTB> i just dont like having differing ideas
[15:35] <soneil> I'm just looking at things like cusf's 10mW performance, oscar satellites going up with 100-150mW .. 500+ seems like overkill
[15:35] <EI5GTB> its best were all on the one wavelength before anyt=hing happens
[15:35] <EI5GTB> what about the sattelites that put out 1w?
[15:36] <edmoore> it works! 39000 mars entry cases, 5 mins to run each case through the sim.
[15:36] <edmoore> Better put the kettle on
[15:36] <EI5GTB> 1 watt means i can talk through em very easily, but when you go to 100me it means getting bigger antennas, better tracking and all
[15:36] <EI5GTB> dont forget about path losses!
[15:37] Action: jcoxon passed his practical exam, wooohooo - one step closer to getting a summer holiday
[15:37] <edmoore> We are happy with 10mW so long as we only every want to do just text strings - it's more than adequate for that. We probably won't look at developing our radios until we want to start sending pictures and things, or we start needing high speed telem for rockets and stuff.
[15:37] <edmoore> well done jcoxon
[15:37] <edmoore> I just got my program working
[15:38] <edmoore> so I am happy too.
[15:38] <jcoxon> cd
[15:38] <EI5GTB> but ok, 10Mw might work, what heppens when your payload comes down in mountain ranges?
[15:38] <jcoxon> oops wrong window
[15:39] <EI5GTB> again, i stress that im using 1dBw ERP
[15:40] <edmoore> You have a valid point
[15:40] <jcoxon> guys, i guess the answer to this is to find out what is or isn't allowed
[15:40] <EI5GTB> if you had an antenna with 6dBi gain that would be 250Mw of rf power from the transm,itter
[15:41] <jcoxon> if we could use more power on amateur bands then we would i guess
[15:41] <jcoxon> its just that we are restricted rather then we chose this power to avoid interference etc
[15:41] <EI5GTB> well, you have more veritility, i know an ATV expert who, (whith a few gramms) could give us perfect pictures on the ground
[15:41] <EI5GTB> you can't do that without the amateur bands.
[15:42] <jcoxon> but then the restrictions has meant we've inovated
[15:42] <jcoxon> so it can't all be bad :-)
[15:42] <EI5GTB> yea, its always good
[15:43] <jcoxon> how about 2 systems, a Ireland and UK one, which turns off or on appropriately in the correct countries :-)
[15:43] <EI5GTB> in my eyes the perfect launch/recovery, has full aprs on the payload, and full aprs on any tracking cars, so its very easy to track the baloon, and see where everyone else is, of course being able to communicate over radio is a plus too
[15:44] <soneil> jcoxon, that's my main worry. at that altitude, they're the same thing. 15km above his current station, gives a line-of-sight horizon to leeds
[15:45] <jcoxon> soneil, hmmmm tis tough
[15:45] <EI5GTB> but the thing is...
[15:46] <EI5GTB> i can walk to the top of a nearby hill, and transmit into the north
[15:46] <EI5GTB> heck, i can sit here, with my 2m yagi, and talk into the norht, a differet country
[15:46] <EI5GTB> i dont see why its a problem that my baloon transmits into a different country
[15:46] <jcoxon> send the letter and see what happens
[15:46] <EI5GTB> my aprs system running here transmits into the uk
[15:47] <soneil> I'd feel better if we could find a way to scale power to what's needed, rather than just firing everything at your disposal
[15:47] <soneil> but as I said, I guess it can't hurt to ask & see what you get
[15:47] <EI5GTB> better having a stong signal, than one you have to struggle to recieve
[15:48] <jcoxon> hehe guys this is not the typical discussion we have on here
[15:48] <jcoxon> usually its what flight computer to use
[15:48] <jcoxon> PICS vs AVRs vs XScale vs i386
[15:48] <soneil> but that's what I'm getting at. walking up a hill makes a noticable difference. 50,000ft is half what ed just did. that's a heck of a hill
[15:48] <EI5GTB> AVR FTW
[15:49] <edmoore> No, we don't fight about it
[15:49] <edmoore> we use arms
[15:49] <jcoxon> oops
[15:49] <EI5GTB> haha
[15:49] <jcoxon> missed that one out
[15:49] <jcoxon> pah
[15:49] <soneil> yeah I'm playing with arduinos too. because I've got a bunch of 3.3v models spare
[15:49] <EI5GTB> but soneil what im trying to say is.. i can transmit into the uk here
[15:49] <edmoore> people who are afriad of getting their hands dirty use SBCs that require a small nuclear power station's worth of current
[15:49] <EI5GTB> so why should my baloon transmitting into the uk make a difference?
[15:49] <edmoore> and olf people use PICs
[15:49] <EI5GTB> i talked to a guy in america a few nights ago..... no-one got annoyed..
[15:49] <jcoxon> edmoore, or money to burn
[15:50] <edmoore> that too.
[15:50] <edmoore> actually telits are the same
[15:50] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, i was upset :-p
[15:50] <edmoore> single most expensive bit of kit on badger by far
[15:50] <jcoxon> but its not on badger!
[15:50] <edmoore> it is sort of atm
[15:50] <edmoore> got it working last night
[15:50] <EI5GTB> exactly, i watch the bbc news somtimes
[15:50] <EI5GTB> the bbcv is transmitting pictues into ireland?
[15:51] <edmoore> EI5GTB: I don't think the questions is one of technicalities or physics or practicalities
[15:51] <EI5GTB> so why should the uk get annoyed when i send a long/lat into the uk
[15:51] <edmoore> just one of regulations
[15:51] <EI5GTB> but thats what im getting at
[15:51] <EI5GTB> as i said, i can whack on my radio noqw and send rf into the uk
[15:51] <EI5GTB> and its perfectly legal
[15:51] <edmoore> we know it won't *actually* be a problem, it's just (we at least, as a uni society) are somewhat obligued top stick by the books
[15:51] <EI5GTB> provided i give my call
[15:51] <edmoore> quiet jcoxon
[15:52] <edmoore> obliged to*
[15:52] <EI5GTB> so provided my baloon gives its call, its perfectly legal
[15:52] <soneil> I guess I'm assuming there's a difference between what you can do on the ground, and in the air
[15:52] <EI5GTB> yes
[15:52] <jcoxon> soneil, thats the assumption in the UK
[15:53] <EI5GTB> in the ait i can get 300miles
[15:53] <soneil> I left my caa handbook at home, but I don't think covers amateur radio anyway, so I'm trying to make common-sense guesses
[15:53] <EI5GTB> at hoime i cvan get 14000 miles
[15:53] <EI5GTB> but my baloon can only go 300
[15:54] <soneil> and on PICs .. I heard a comment recently that involved rusty forks. so I haven't looked into them too much further
[15:54] <soneil> well, I guess the real answer is that we'd bother feel more comfortable if we get a real answer. only way to do that is to send them a real question
[15:55] <edmoore> Agreed.
[15:56] <EI5GTB> but im trying to convince you that as long as its licenced in ireland, and it is in ireland or its waters, if the signal is picked up in libia, they wont mind
[15:56] <gordonjcp> PICs, bleah
[15:56] <edmoore> thank you
[15:56] <edmoore> AVRs and ARMs are where it's at
[15:57] <edmoore> badger happily sports an ARM7. Though it never uses more than about 2% CPU to run the balloon
[15:57] <gordonjcp> indeed
[15:57] <gordonjcp> I used to play about with PICs, and still have some
[15:57] <edmoore> it's really there for when we run nav routines and estimation filters for the parafoil
[15:57] <gordonjcp> but they're not as much fun as AVRs to program
[15:57] <edmoore> agreed. AVRs are really nice to use. They make programming a lot of fun.
[15:58] <edmoore> ARMs can get a bit annoying when you have to set 9 registers to do something
[15:58] <gordonjcp> in fact, I'd say that programming PICs is not as much fun as lots of things I've tried, including changing the gearbox in a Bedford TK, and having extensive gum surgery
[15:58] <EI5GTB> i love avrs, i just havnt figured out how to use the MYAVR board to program em
[15:58] <gordonjcp> I reckon programming PICs is just about as fun as getting a tetanus shot
[15:59] <EI5GTB> yea
[15:59] <EI5GTB> C fTW
[16:00] <gordonjcp> forth ftw
[16:02] <EI5GTB> indeed
[16:03] <EI5GTB> soneil, so are we agreed that there would be no issuses so long as we were perfectly legally licenced in EI?
[16:03] <EI5GTB> as a last example
[16:03] <EI5GTB> sligo repeater can be heard in omagh
[16:03] <EI5GTB> thats perfectly legal
[16:03] <EI5GTB> sligo is licenced an an automated station
[16:03] <EI5GTB> a balloon would be licenced as anb automated station
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[16:18] <robert1971> Has anyone thought about using one of these for tracking? http://www.trackstick-gps.co.uk/spot_satellite_messenger.php Works by using satellite network and not GSM. One would imagine that you could track a balloon in realtime throughout the flight. You could then send signals from the ground at the ballon if you wanted to cut down the payload and the balloon wouldn't have to transmit anything back over the radio specrum. Just an idea!
[16:18] <edmoore> uni nevada use them
[16:18] <edmoore> but it's basically just homemade stuff with a markup in a pretty box.
[16:18] <EI5GTB> theres far cheaper ways!
[16:19] <EI5GTB> it takes the fun out of it
[16:19] <robert1971> I like the sound of that. Especially if the stuff keeps droping in the sea
[16:21] <soneil> EI5GTB, sorry, had to take the phone. yes, if you get a green light from them, we're good
[16:21] <EI5GTB> eya
[16:22] <EI5GTB> i can be quite the arguer :P but when comrefg give us the go ahead, as long as we stay in irealand were sorted
[16:23] <soneil> that reminds me, the last time I took a poke at wyoming's predictor, their estimations were kind of .. wet. so I'm worrying about where we launch now :)
[16:23] <EI5GTB> haha
[16:23] <EI5GTB> well, if it lands in donegal bay, i can take dads boat out and collect it
[16:24] <EI5GTB> theres a deck on it enough for....a small car
[16:24] <EI5GTB> so itll take a big payloafd ;P
[16:24] <soneil> (and curious what assumptions their system makes about kg lift. assuming more lift means up (& down) quicker, so less lateral distance)
[16:24] <EI5GTB> is this an online thing?
[16:25] <soneil> http://weather.uwyo.edu/polar/balloon_traj.html
[16:25] <soneil> asks nothing about lift & weight, so I'm assuming there's some room to beat them. but from here, I got wet somewhere close to sligo
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[16:26] <edmoore> soneil: we're made a 'better' (he says arrogantly) predictor
[16:26] <fnoble> hello
[16:26] <edmoore> better = you can tailor more parameters
[16:26] <fnoble> wow, busy in here today
[16:26] <soneil> excellent
[16:26] <soneil> fnoble: noisy too. sorry :)
[16:26] <edmoore> fnoble: do you think rob would consent to putting on the web? we were just talking about the wyoming predictor
[16:26] <fnoble> im sure he would
[16:27] <fnoble> but its not really finished yet, i mean it works ok but there is no interface
[16:27] <edmoore> yeah - well we just need a cgi wrapper
[16:27] <fnoble> all the parameters are compiled in
[16:27] <edmoore> oh lord
[16:27] <fnoble> yeah
[16:28] <fnoble> but wouldn't take much for it to read them in off the command line
[16:28] <edmoore> it would take nothing
[16:28] <EI5GTB> soneil, launch from longford
[16:28] <edmoore> int main (int argc, char *argv[])
[16:28] <fnoble> also would be good to validate it against some real world data
[16:28] <EI5GTB> would land near basllybofay
[16:28] <EI5GTB> ballybofey
[16:28] <edmoore> yeah, the more people who use it the better
[16:29] <edmoore> if they submit their KMLs afterwards
[16:29] <edmoore> we can really make a pretty cool tool
[16:29] <fnoble> well we can validate it against nova 6/7
[16:29] <edmoore> does it have the fidelity to model the apex corkscrew thing?
[16:29] <fnoble> it compares well with the wyoming one
[16:29] <edmoore> I'm fascinated by that
[16:29] <fnoble> i think so, yeah
[16:30] <fnoble> the simulation step size is smaller than wyoming
[16:30] <soneil> EI5GTB: you have google earth ?
[16:31] <fnoble> i really want to test the gpsdrive stuff i have got working now too
[16:31] <soneil> EI5GTB: wyoming, for 6am this morning, from a position conveniently close to my back yard, gives me https://dl.getdropbox.com/u/23042/Balloon%20Trajectory%20%2806Z%2030%20July%202008%29.kmz
[16:31] <soneil> starts pretty, get scenic, then ends wet
[16:32] <edmoore> oh pissing pooing excel. I would banish it from the earth.
[16:32] <fnoble> whats it doing now?
[16:32] <edmoore> fnoble: have you looked at the database handling to increase the speed?
[16:32] <fnoble> erm, not yet
[16:32] <edmoore> it overwrote my sim results because i had it open with an older copy of them
[16:33] <edmoore> it can't handle other applications working on the same files as it.
[16:33] <edmoore> and my driver programe needs to write to it.
[16:33] <fnoble> edmoore, do you want to email rob goldsmithh and say i can meet him in person sometime this week?
[16:33] <fnoble> if he wants
[16:34] <edmoore> Do you want to email him and say the same thing?
[16:34] <fnoble> dunno, you are his point of contact, but if you think that would be ok then sure
[16:34] <edmoore> although q&a's of the sort he wants for the article benefit from being written down first, as they'll be published in writing. but for a gneral meet, sounds like a god idea
[16:35] <edmoore> I can't type
[16:35] <fnoble> ok, would you want to come along if it was at the weekend?
[16:35] <EI5GTB> soneil, no googler earth here
[16:35] <EI5GTB> i was just taking landing long and lat
[16:36] <edmoore> fnoble: can't really make it down that far
[16:36] <edmoore> I'm spending too much on transport atm
[16:36] <fnoble> ok cool
[16:36] <edmoore> would rather have a quietish few weeks on the spending side
[16:36] <EI5GTB> ill go install google earth
[16:41] <fnoble> its really annoying not having any tools around :(
[16:41] <fnoble> i feel so naked without my soldering iron
[16:43] <edmoore> do you mean *my* soldering iron?
[16:43] <EI5GTB> thats why i keep my gas soldering iron with me alor
[16:43] <EI5GTB> alot*
[16:43] <EI5GTB> perhaps too much
[16:44] <fnoble> ok, your soldering iron :p
[16:44] <edmoore> we'll just have to be pure designers
[16:44] <EI5GTB> soneil, see if we did launch from longford
[16:44] <EI5GTB> http://maps.google.com/maps?daddr=%2B54%C2%B0+44%27+52.80%22,+-7%C2%B0+39%27+39.60%22+(54.748000,+-7.661000)&geocode=&dirflg=&saddr=53.621+++-7.815+&f=d&sll=54.72462,-7.668457&sspn=1.966947,4.943848&ie=UTF8&ll=54.213861,-7.981567&spn=1.991651,4.943848&t=h&z=8
[16:44] <fnoble> i officially claim the nice RF one though
[16:45] <fnoble> so ha!
[16:45] <EI5GTB> thats how to get to the landing site
[16:45] <EI5GTB> too long of a drive!
[16:45] <edmoore> oh, badgerworks svn...
[16:45] <EI5GTB> fnoble, you have an rf soldering iron?
[16:45] <EI5GTB> iv always wanted one of those :)
[16:45] <edmoore> it's the department's really, but if they've managed not to miss it in the last 2 years we've borrowed it...
[16:46] <EI5GTB> haha
[16:46] <EI5GTB> them things are grae
[16:46] <edmoore> And I think Fergus can claim it
[16:46] <edmoore> unless henry graduates with it
[16:48] <edmoore> I really am in love with idea of this stom chasing
[16:49] <soneil> with a balloon ?
[16:49] <EI5GTB> heh
[16:49] <edmoore> yeah
[16:50] <soneil> it'd be neat to get a good shot of an anvil. but wouldn't you be in & out of the cloud system far too quick?
[16:50] <edmoore> why?
[16:51] <soneil> just judging by the last couple, it seems the time spent in the weather system isn't the majority
[16:51] <EI5GTB> i think what we need is a gyroscopically stabilised pan and tild head on the base of the payload, with a video camera and stilss camera
[16:53] <EI5GTB> remotley controllable of course..
[16:53] <soneil> EI5GTB, there's longford https://dl.getdropbox.com/u/23042/balloon-3.kml
[16:53] <soneil> short story, in & hopefully back out of NI
[16:54] <soneil> I'm surprised they're all heading north. that's not the impression you get of the weather from the ground
[16:54] <edmoore> The anvil will look better when way above it
[16:54] <soneil> I expected them all to be heading for wales
[16:55] <edmoore> I think a gyroscopically stabilised doo-dah can wait until we have a bit more weight budget and time
[16:55] <EI5GTB> haha, i know :P
[16:55] <EI5GTB> soneil, the jetstream is runnin north atm
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[16:55] <soneil> so what I'm seeing today isn't typical ?
[16:56] <edmoore> I'd rather atm send up a ok-ish compact in a sealed container and wish it the best of luck on a fairly dabgerous mission
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[16:56] <edmoore> wunderground is the best plac for jetstream forcasts
[16:56] <edmoore> unless there's somewhere better
[16:57] <EI5GTB> that where i use
[16:57] <soneil> EI5GTB: speaking of which, have you considered contacting met.ie ? I figure if there's anyone around here that's used to sending radiosondes, they should be the chaps
[16:57] <fnoble> usually goes west to east but around august and april it does wierd things
[16:58] <fnoble> it seems to change direction and get a lot weaker, which is good
[16:58] <edmoore> ideal for us
[16:58] <edmoore> an obvious time for ballooners to take a holiday too :p
[16:58] <EI5GTB> soneil, i know a few people in met.ie ill make a few enquiries
[17:00] <EI5GTB> is there no way we can model a launch using past conditions?
[17:01] <EI5GTB> when the stream is rtunnon w -> e i would like to see if launching in galway would land it in the irish sea or not..
[17:02] <soneil> or if a bus trip would let us land one in the UK. that site only goes back as far as midnight
[17:02] <EI5GTB> a bus trip?
[17:02] <soneil> I'm not walking to the east coast.
[17:02] <EI5GTB> i see, id rather keep it in EI for now
[17:03] <EI5GTB> landing in uk means too many regualtion problems
[17:04] <gordonjcp> yeah, funny that, they don't like things being flown from .ie to .uk
[17:04] <gordonjcp> wonder why eh
[17:04] <soneil> ;)
[17:04] <EI5GTB> haha
[17:05] <soneil> I don't see why it'd be a huge problem. ryanair manage it, and they're not exactly professional either
[17:05] <EI5GTB> but i think were gonna need 2 or 3 chace cars
[17:05] <EI5GTB> 1 at the launch site
[17:05] <EI5GTB> and one downfeild of the target
[17:06] <EI5GTB> cos i think the balloon might be able to make better ground than we could with our roads :p
[17:09] <EI5GTB> anyway
[17:09] <EI5GTB> now i need to get my mind off balloons before i become obsessed
[17:09] <EI5GTB> chat later all
[17:09] <fnoble> bye
[17:15] <robert1971> All this talk of ballooning is affecting my productivity at work. Who invented IRC !!! Seems like 5 o'clock is coming around faster since I have been on here ;-)
[17:15] <jcoxon> yeah, its best not to have it on when you are actually doing something
[17:16] <soneil> you're kidding? IRC at work saves me from snoring in the wrong earshot
[17:17] <fnoble> this channel is really growing though, its awesome
[17:17] <fnoble> i remember when breaking 10 users was unusual :)
[17:18] <jcoxon> i remember when it was phatmonkey and me
[17:18] <jcoxon> actually i remember when it was just me
[17:18] <robert1971> I think I have managed about 2 hours work in the last two days, my ballooning knowledge is getting a whole lot better though. jcoxon:Nearly finished that Hack guide for the IXUS 400 on the wiki!
[17:18] <jcoxon> yeah, it looks good
[17:19] <jcoxon> look forward to seeing how the camera performs
[17:19] <robert1971> I'm going to wrap it up real warm and shove the battery on the inside of the flight box.
[17:20] <soneil> I can't remember who was spamming nova6 in ##electronics, but you can blame them for my noise :)
[17:21] <EI5GTB> anyone here ever used the MyAVR dev board for the avr chips?
[17:21] <jcoxon> oh its edmoore
[17:21] <robert1971> Has anyone got any ideas on how cold it gets in their flight box when at perigee
[17:22] <fnoble> it varies a lot between box designs i think
[17:22] <fnoble> nova 6/7 we spent a load of our weight budget on insulation so i would be supprised if it got much below freezing
[17:22] <robert1971> I'm thinking of putting of of those gel heat packs in and kicking it off after the first hour of flight
[17:23] <fnoble> (guessing from the amount of radio drift, as temp sensing didnt work)
[17:23] <fnoble> but we have flown stuff with pretty lousy insulation before
[17:25] <robert1971> I'm guessing that the camera is going to generate some heat every 5 mins as it goes through its three picture routine and 30 secs of video. Hopefully it won't freeze up as there can't be any water up there!
[17:26] <fnoble> you can pick up moisture from the cloud layer and then have it freeze when you get higher
[17:26] <robert1971> I'm launching on a clear day :-)
[17:26] <fnoble> cool cool
[17:27] <fnoble> its never been that much of a problem before i dont think
[17:27] <robert1971> Has anyone done a launch at night?
[17:27] <fnoble> we did a dawn launch the other day
[17:27] <fnoble> launched at 3am
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[17:27] <fnoble> the cameras failed though :(
[17:27] <robert1971> Shit, That is what I call night time
[17:28] <robert1971> Was that before you went to bed?
[17:28] <fnoble> you want it to be light for when you have to find it really
[17:28] <fnoble> yeah, we didnt sleep
[17:28] <fnoble> -icked it up at 9am about 90km from the launch site
[17:29] <fnoble> but launching at night seemed to be ok
[17:29] <fnoble> it was good fun actually
[17:29] <robert1971> Humm That's quite a distance. I'm up in Leeds and I think I'm going to have to go South to a wider part of England if I don't want to end up in the sea
[17:30] <fnoble> it wouldnt usually go that far, its just as the winds were going north we had loads of range so we went for quite a slow ascent rate
[17:31] <fnoble> and then we ran out or helium :) so were forced to have a very low ascent rate
[17:31] <EI5GTB> haha
[17:31] <EI5GTB> how much does the helium cost anyway?
[17:31] <robert1971> There are some rates on the BOC website
[17:32] <robert1971> How much do you want?
[17:32] <fnoble> we get it for free now, but before we were getting it at £40/bottle
[17:32] <EI5GTB> boc?
[17:32] <fnoble> but that was with a discount through the uni
[17:32] <EI5GTB> oh, what size of bottle?
[17:32] <robert1971> British Oxygen Company
[17:32] <EI5GTB> i see
[17:32] <fnoble> quite big, was maybe 5' tall
[17:32] <EI5GTB> well, in ireland it wil be much more expencive then..
[17:32] <fnoble> i think BOC are international now
[17:33] <EI5GTB> and you guys get a discount :(
[17:33] <robert1971> http://www.bocgases.ie/
[17:33] <fnoble> i think you can get it cheaper though if you get small bottles meant for party suppliers
[17:34] <fnoble> they were giving us research grade stuff just cos they were ordering loads of it anyway
[17:34] <EI5GTB> wghats this about bottles
[17:34] <EI5GTB> do you have to own an actual bottle
[17:34] <EI5GTB> ?
[17:35] <fnoble> usually you rent one
[17:35] <robert1971> By the month
[17:35] <fnoble> im not sure wht the deal is with ours though
[17:35] <EI5GTB> hmm
[17:35] <EI5GTB> i see
[17:35] <EI5GTB> and how much you generally need?
[17:36] <robert1971> Depends on the payload
[17:36] <fnoble> our big bottle did 2 1.2kg balloons
[17:36] <fnoble> quite comfortably
[17:36] <robert1971> There are some charts on the wiki I think
[17:37] <fnoble> a 1.2kg balloon will take around 1.2kg comfortably
[17:37] <edmoore> the morning stuff was quite fun unless you're the driver
[17:37] <edmoore> well, it's fun up until you find it when the tiredness hits you
[17:38] <edmoore> we broke the alt record with a 1.2kg balloon taking a 1.2kg payload
[17:38] <fnoble> rough rule of thumb is same weight payload as balloon if your trying to get really high, like 30km+
[17:38] <edmoore> but that was a slow ascent rate
[17:38] <robert1971> Has anyone done some experiments with the length of cord between the baloon and the payload. I would imagine the longer the cord the less rocky the ride!
[17:38] <edmoore> fnoble: I'm not sure it's that linear
[17:38] <edmoore> robert1971: yes
[17:38] <fnoble> no its not, but as a really rough rule its ok
[17:38] <EI5GTB> hmm, i see, and whats the cost of the actua l baloons?
[17:39] <fnoble> if you look at the kaymont website there is a lot more info
[17:39] <robert1971> I sourced a couple from the US these guys probably know of a better source
[17:40] <fnoble> we get ours from rocketboy usually
[17:40] <fnoble> ebay is sometimes good too
[17:40] <edmoore> rocketboy is probably a god bet
[17:41] <edmoore> you know where they've come from - we've had some dodgy old ebay ones before
[17:41] <edmoore> many years out of date, quite inelastic
[17:41] <EI5GTB> hmm
[17:41] <EI5GTB> i looked on ebay beofer
[17:41] <EI5GTB> could only ever find 600g ones and the likes
[17:42] <edmoore> jcoxon: what is steve's website, do you know?
[17:42] <edmoore> I've lost the url
[17:43] <robert1971> Might be worth getting a price from http://www.kaymont.com/pages/sounding-balloons.cfm
[17:43] <edmoore> http://randomsolutions.co.uk/top.htm
[17:43] <edmoore> ask steve for what you want, he can get it in
[17:44] <fnoble> the kaymont site will help you work out how big you need, if you keep to roughtly the same nozzle lift as it states in the chart then you should get to roughtly the stated burst altitude
[17:44] <fnoble> your ascent rate will depend on how much more the nozzle lift is than your payload weight
[17:46] <fnoble> to give you two data points nova 6 had 480gms excess lift and nova 7 had about 1kg excess lift iirc
[17:46] <EI5GTB> hmm, seems to be about £44 for a 1.2 kg baloon
[17:46] <fnoble> nova 6 had an ascent rate of about 2-3m/s and nova 7 maybe 4m/s
[17:47] <EI5GTB> nice
[17:47] <fnoble> could check the logs if you want more accurate numbers
[17:47] <EI5GTB> its a speedy ascent rate in ireland
[17:47] <fnoble> both were 1.2kg payload on a 1.2kg balloon
[17:47] <EI5GTB> thats needed
[17:50] <EI5GTB> http://cgi.ebay.ie/Weather-Balloons-Make-Rotten-Sex-Toys-Brand-New-Boo_W0QQitemZ350068518498QQihZ022QQcategoryZ377QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247
[17:50] <EI5GTB> haha, good old ebay
[17:51] <robert1971> Can you use a bigger balloon to give better height and a faster accent rate? Obviously more expensive...
[17:51] <EI5GTB> yea
[17:51] <fnoble> yup, thats the tradeoff
[17:51] <EI5GTB> how high could you get?
[17:51] <fnoble> its pretty rare to get a latex past 35km i think
[17:52] <phatmonkey> jcoxon: when are you doing a launch?
[17:52] <phatmonkey> i have an itch to do my own payload
[17:52] <fnoble> people have got zero-pressure ballons to like 48km i think
[17:52] <EI5GTB> nice
[17:52] <phatmonkey> when the summer of code is out of the way first though
[17:52] <jcoxon> fnoble, 48km is more a high pressure balloon
[17:53] <jcoxon> phatmonkey, my next launch is 9/10th august
[17:53] <fnoble> we are hoping to do a payload with jcoxon that should push the altitude limit for latexs
[17:53] <fnoble> minimal payload, maximal balloon :)
[17:54] <robert1971> jcoxon: Where do you plan to launch
[17:54] <jcoxon> Cambridge
[17:55] <robert1971> Would I be able to attend to get a few pointers?
[17:55] <jcoxon> of course
[17:57] <robert1971> The wife and kids are away that w/e and I'm off cycling in amsterdam for the following week. So might be a good opportunity to get out to see what a launch is like.
[17:57] <EI5GTB> could you guys video it? so i can be there without spending money on a ticket?
[17:57] <jcoxon> i'll be emailing round soon so i'll stick you on the list
[17:57] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, i'm sure it will
[17:57] <robert1971> Does anyone do avr-gcc stuff on linux here?
[17:58] <jcoxon> there are videos of the launch already
[17:58] <jcoxon> also EI5GTB you'll be able to track it online
[17:58] <robert1971> In real time?
[17:58] <EI5GTB> cool
[17:59] <jcoxon> also there is a little suprise for this launch
[17:59] <robert1971> I guess the recovery is more exciting!
[17:59] <fnoble> dont give too much away ;)
[18:03] <robert1971> I have a car and and a few GSM enabled laptops if you need any extra ground support
[18:04] <jcoxon> oh don't worry we rope everyone in
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> And I can pick it up if it blows to central fife :)
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[18:05] Action: SpeedEvil ponders helium generators.
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> Err
[18:05] Action: SpeedEvil ponders hydrogen generators.
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> Helium generators are harder.
[18:05] Action: robert1971 thinks that's more likely
[18:06] <EI5GTB> i made hydrogen once
[18:06] <Hiena> ' setet!
[18:06] <SpeedEvil> Hydrogen gas is a small percentage of farts.
[18:06] <Hiena> Khm... Good evening!
[18:06] <SpeedEvil> All you need to do is to purify it.
[18:06] <robert1971> Methane in the main
[18:07] <fnoble> if you react aluminium with sodium hydroxide (lye) you get a shed load of hydrogen
[18:07] <robert1971> Hydrogen has a habit of going bang look at the hindenberg
[18:07] Action: SpeedEvil was looking at the gaseous composition for air recyc.
[18:07] <fnoble> unfortunately the reaction is really exothermic
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: well - yes - in theory.
[18:07] <Hiena> Methane easy to producem, but flamable as the hysdrogen.
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: in practice - you can control it.
[18:07] <robert1971> And heavy
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> lighter than air.
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> But not that much.
[18:07] edmoore (n=edmoore@smtp.vorticity-systems.com) left irc:
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> half the lift of helium if I remember my atomic masses.
[18:08] <robert1971> Guys I'm going to have to go home and C the kids. Chat later... Going to B&Q to get some aluminium tubing!
[18:08] Action: SpeedEvil ponders the composition of natural gas.
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[18:11] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if butane/propane will liquify usefully.
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> El-cheapo altitude regulation.
[18:12] <fnoble> bbiab
[18:27] Action: SpeedEvil ponders injecting liquid propane into the balloon to absorb some ethane at altitude.
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[18:45] <edmoore> lo
[18:47] <fnoble> hello
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[18:48] <edmoore> 24 members. It's getting pretty busy here these days
[18:48] <edmoore> super cool
[18:48] <edmoore> anyone into pc building?
[18:49] <gleblanc> pc?
[18:49] <edmoore> personal computer
[18:50] <gleblanc> Hmm, no, just radios for me
[18:51] <soneil> I let apple make mine for me these days
[18:51] <akawaka> i finally realised that i couldn't keep up with all the news and tech to keep building stuff
[18:51] <fnoble> edmoore, i used to but you dont really save any mmoney anymore
[18:51] <edmoore> I type this from my apple laptop, will never switch unless textmate becomes available for another platform
[18:52] <edmoore> but
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> And you can't meaningfully make a PC class machine properly.
[18:52] <edmoore> I have about £200 to spend on a headless linux box
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> At least without at least a few dozen spins of a large multilayer board.
[18:52] <gleblanc> SpeedEvil: this isn't ##electronics, ya know...
[18:52] <edmoore> I don't want a midi tower, too big, something more the size of those shuttle cases
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> Oops - I've been re-sorting my windows, and thought it was.
[18:53] <fnoble> edmoore, maybe get a second hand laptop, maybe one with a broken screen
[18:53] <gleblanc> A friend recommended that I look at logicsupply.com
[18:53] <fnoble> small, quiet and low power
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> Broken laptops work well.
[18:53] <gleblanc> Though their stuff isn't cheap, it sure is small
[18:53] <edmoore> an eeebox would be ideal
[18:53] <soneil> shuttle's difficult to keep in a budget .. mini-itx eats half your budget by time you've got a board with a mediocre cpu
[18:53] <edmoore> but if you can buy a new eeebox for £200, I fugure you must be able to DIY something with slight better spec for the same money
[18:54] <fnoble> no it doesnt work that way anymore
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: sure - if you buy 1000 of the parts.
[18:54] <edmoore> lol
[18:54] <edmoore> yeah i guess so
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> Volume has a quality of its own these days, and box-assemblers are working on tiny margins.
[18:54] <fnoble> the low end stuff its always cheaper buy than build
[18:54] <edmoore> well I don't mind buying something for £200
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> broken screen laptop is a nice solution.
[18:54] <edmoore> dual core ideally as one will spend a lot of its time chugging on things, probably
[18:55] <soneil> I keep waiting for the intel atom to turn into something that's genuinely small form factor
[18:55] <edmoore> the chip od the box itself?
[18:56] <soneil> the chip's small enough. none of the boards I've seen implemented really make a difference tho
[18:56] <edmoore> well the eeebox is based on one
[18:56] <edmoore> but also i'd like two hdds in raid1
[18:56] <edmoore> another thing against the eeebox
[18:56] <gleblanc> soneil: how small are you looking for?
[18:57] <soneil> about the size of a domestic router would be ideal
[18:57] <gleblanc> soneil: you can get some nano-ITX stuff now, though I've only seen Via
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> http://shop.ebay.co.uk/items/?_nkw=thin+client&_fromfsb=&_trksid=m270
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> might any of those suit?
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> actually prolly not with RAID
[18:57] <soneil> I've been waiting for the atom specifically because it has intel's vt extensions
[18:58] <jcoxon> soooo close
[18:58] <jcoxon> so so close
[18:58] <edmoore> ?
[18:59] <soneil> there's been a whole slew of 3.5"-disk sized boards announced out of taiwan. just nothing on the shelves yet
[19:02] <SpeedEvil> A 1W TDP variant'd be interesting.
[19:02] <SpeedEvil> 5W or so in a MID is really pushing it.
[19:02] <gleblanc> soneil: the reviews I've been reading of the Atom vs the Via thing, the atom gets it's ass handed to it
[19:03] <SpeedEvil> AIUI the via is considerably higher power though.
[19:04] <gleblanc> Dunno. I only looked because a friend writes their test software
[19:06] <soneil> yeah. the via eats a lot more power, and has no extensions for virtualization. which is most of what I use linux boxes for these days
[19:07] <soneil> just looking for something a bit more wife-friendly than having beige-box towers stuffed in the kitchen cabinets =x
[19:07] <SpeedEvil> soneil: not got an attic?
[19:07] <soneil> nope
[19:07] <SpeedEvil> I've found USB RAID - though many decry it as an abomination works just fine for me.
[19:07] <soneil> bedroom, bathroom, and a The room
[19:08] <gleblanc> SpeedEvil: isn't it a bit sluggish?
[19:08] <SpeedEvil> gleblanc: well...
[19:09] <SpeedEvil> If you're doing heavy file IO possibly.
[19:09] <SpeedEvil> 12M/spindle I get better than though.
[19:13] <SpeedEvil> soneil: though I note my old duron 1300 would powersave to 10W or so used by the motherboard, if I used ath_cool
[19:13] <SpeedEvil> (though the sound and network were erattic)
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[19:18] <gleblanc> apparently CNA is about 4x the power dissipation of Atom
[19:19] <gleblanc> But some of that is made up for by better chipsets on the via side
[19:25] <edmoore> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Shuttle-K45S-Barebone-Personal-Computer-Black-Silver_W0QQitemZ270256928491QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item270256928491&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318
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[19:25] <gerard_mp> hi
[19:25] <edmoore> can get 2gb ram, whatever core2duo£50 getsw you, and a coupla hdds for 120 can't I? am i missing anything else?
[19:25] <edmoore> hi gerard_mp \
[19:26] <edmoore> how's it going?
[19:26] <gerard_mp> fine, the tests we made on sunday were successful
[19:26] <edmoore> oh tell me
[19:26] <edmoore> google translater does a really bad job of your blog
[19:26] <gerard_mp> next sunday more tests and waiting for permissions (we've already sent the petition)
[19:26] <edmoore> so i couldn't really work out what was going on
[19:27] <gerard_mp> it's not in spanish, is catalan (a local language here)
[19:27] <natrium42> hey gerard_mp
[19:27] <gerard_mp> yes... maybe we should consider writting new posts in english/cat
[19:27] <natrium42> why petition?
[19:27] <gerard_mp> hi natrium42
[19:27] <edmoore> gerard_mp: i figured it was catalan
[19:27] <gerard_mp> we need a permission to launch our balloon
[19:28] <gerard_mp> however there are sme photos in flickr
[19:28] <gerard_mp> I'm working on a KML generator taking SD log
[19:28] <gerard_mp> and right now I was trying to do a live google-earth tracker
[19:28] <gerard_mp> but I have one doubt with this code http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:emulator, I don't know who is the author
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> gerard_mp: you know abotu gpsbabel?
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> as that can output kml
[19:29] <natrium42> gerard_mp, looks like rocketboy is
[19:29] <gerard_mp> yes I knew about it
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> k
[19:29] <jcoxon> gerard_mp, oh thats rocketboy
[19:30] <gerard_mp> that line could generate an overflow I think: sprintf(pch,"*%02X\r\n",(unsigned int)crc);
[19:30] <gerard_mp> since pch is a pointer to a length-defined buffer
[19:30] <gerard_mp> and he adds more bytes to the end
[19:31] <gerard_mp> (do_crc function)
[19:31] <gerard_mp> sprintf(buf,"$GPGSV,2.2,08,18,73,111,35,19,33,057,27,22,57,173,37,27,,,*");
[19:31] <gerard_mp> do_crc(buf); // add CRC to buf
[19:31] <gerard_mp> this is where it is called
[19:31] <EI5GTB> back from dinner
[19:31] <EI5GTB> haui
[19:31] <EI5GTB> hai*
[19:31] <natrium42> char buf[128];
[19:31] <gerard_mp> hmm
[19:31] <gerard_mp> ok
[19:31] <gerard_mp> nmea max length?
[19:31] <natrium42> 128 should be more than enough
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> I think the spec said 4 sats max per line
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> I'd personally want to bump that to 256 if it's on a PC.
[19:32] <gerard_mp> yes, pc has no problem :)
[19:32] <gerard_mp> however 128 should be enough
[19:32] <gerard_mp> let me check
[19:33] <fnoble> i think nmeaspec says all strings are less than 78 chars
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> checking length beforehand is prolly wise.
[19:33] <akawaka> snprintf people
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> though why are you putting out fake SV lines?
[19:33] <gerard_mp> NMEA 0183 standard messages vary in length, but each message is limited to 79
[19:33] <gerard_mp> characters or less. This length limitation excludes the $ and the [CR][LF]. The
[19:33] <gerard_mp> standard message data field block, including delimiters, is limited to 74 characters or
[19:33] <gerard_mp> less.
[19:34] <akawaka> i usually replace most of the standard string functions with ones that require explicit length arguments and correctly deal with overflows
[19:34] <fnoble> i was close :)
[19:34] <natrium42> akawaka, pah!
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> I'm sure I've seen >>74 in logs
[19:35] <akawaka> :)
[19:35] <natrium42> akawaka, you have been in the corporate environment for too long :P
[19:35] <fnoble> there is no chance someone could send my a wav file of some rtty is there?
[19:35] <edmoore> I heard 82 :p
[19:35] <akawaka> i've just been bit in the ass too many times
[19:35] <edmoore> fnoble: wikipedia has one
[19:35] <fnoble> ok
[19:35] <gerard_mp> well, standard messages should not exceed 79ch
[19:35] <fnoble> ive implemented the peak detection thingy in rtty
[19:35] <edmoore> on the rtty page
[19:36] <gerard_mp> like GGA, and common ones
[19:36] <fnoble> for full no user intervention decode
[19:36] <jcoxon> fnoble, edmoore i think thats in baudot though
[19:36] <fnoble> but no radio to test with :)
[19:36] <edmoore> cool - is this the test to see if it works?
[19:36] <akawaka> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/30/third-falcon-try/
[19:36] <natrium42> 79 matches a standard 80x25 terminal pretty closely btw
[19:36] <natrium42> nice coincidence
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> Also.
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> Consider corruption.
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> if you get a missing ]
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> \n in the middle
[19:37] <fnoble> baudot is ok, just want something with approx the right spectrum
[19:37] <edmoore> there is no adjective to describe the level of orange that is the face of the presenter of 'worlds wildest police videos'
[19:37] <natrium42> akawaka, ooh, cool, i didn't know they were launching so soon
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> gerard_mp: my bluetooth GPS violates that very occasionally - length 7676 $GPGGA,093115.000,5613.0153,N,00306.7270,W,1,00,50.0,102.9,M,49.5,M,,0000*77
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[19:38] <gerard_mp> so 128 buffer is enough
[19:39] <natrium42> SpeedEvil, maybe because it's not truncating leading zeros?
[19:40] <gerard_mp> tomorrow I'll try to get radio messages directly to my program insted of needing a file with info
[19:40] <gerard_mp> radio uses a serial interface
[19:40] <gerard_mp> so should be easy
[19:41] <gerard_mp> I think that I'll put a checksum to my radio packets, so I can avoid many problems when parsing the packet
[19:42] <gerard_mp> nmea method is easy
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[19:46] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: nope.
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> It's putting out positive dilution of position figures.
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> $GPGGA,093118.000,5613.0145,N,00306.7264,W,1,00,50.0,101.2,M,49.5,M,,0000*70
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> $GPGGA,120012.000,5613.0055,N,00306.7240,W,1,09,0.9,116.2,M,49.5,M,,0000*47
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> second is shorter
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> Or rather - >10
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> >9
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> I think that'd break 80, with a valid DGPS fix.
[19:51] <natrium42> hmmkay
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> But 128 should be very safe.
[19:52] <natrium42> yep
[20:00] <gerard_mp> then I have another doubt, about how he reads data from serial line
[20:00] <gerard_mp> it's done by int read_input_line(char *pch, int size)
[20:00] <gerard_mp> pch is the buffer and size the size of buffer
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[20:01] <jcoxon> gerard_mp, its best you speak to him about it
[20:01] <jcoxon> i'm sure he'd be happy to discuss it
[20:01] <gerard_mp> is he online everyday?
[20:01] <jcoxon> quite often
[20:01] <jcoxon> he was on last night
[20:02] <gerard_mp> ok
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[20:09] fnoble (n=fnoble@88-106-248-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) joined #highaltitude.
[20:11] <jcoxon> gerard_mp, and voila
[20:11] <fnoble> any alsa gurus here? how can i change which input source alsa is forwarding to its oss emulation thingy?
[20:11] <gerard_mp> RocketBoyV1: hi
[20:11] <fnoble> changing it in alsamixer doesnt seem to make any difference?
[20:11] <jcoxon> alsa.conf?
[20:12] <RocketBoyV1> hi chaps
[20:12] <edmoore> fnoble: shuttle k45
[20:12] <edmoore> looks perfect, I might snap one up
[20:12] <gerard_mp> RocketBoyV1: I'd like to talk about your gps emulator code if possible
[20:13] <fnoble> looks cool
[20:13] <RocketBoyV1> np
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[20:14] <RocketBoyV1> gerard_np: it was somthing I hacked up quickly
[20:16] <edmoore> though a bigger tower would let me use 120mm fans, and quietness is pretty important. I notice my macbook when I try to sleep, it annoys me.
[20:16] <EI5GTB> RocketBoyV1, you a ham, yea
[20:16] <EI5GTB> ?
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[20:22] <akawaka> http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001578/
[20:24] <soneil> edmoore: no, you can't send a balloon to phobos
[20:24] <edmoore> damn it
[20:24] <edmoore> badger mars
[20:24] <edmoore> after badger storm
[20:24] <edmoore> after badger sunrise
[20:25] <akawaka> fnoble: doesn't alsa map all sources to a dsp device?
[20:26] <fnoble> reading /dev/dsp seems to give me my mic port not the built in mic no matter what i set as the input source in alsamixer
[20:27] <akawaka> /dev/dsp0 1?
[20:27] <akawaka> /dev/adsp?
[20:28] <RocketBoyV1> EI5GTB - yep G8KHW
[20:29] <EI5GTB> greetings :)
[20:31] <RocketBoyV1> da di da
[20:32] <EI5GTB> :P
[20:32] <EI5GTB> da di da di da da di da
[20:33] <edmoore> oh this is unfair
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[20:33] <EI5GTB> heh
[20:33] <EI5GTB> go get you licences all you guy :P
[20:33] <EI5GTB> s/guy/guyd
[20:33] <EI5GTB> ffs
[20:33] <edmoore> we know
[20:33] <EI5GTB> s/guyd/guys
[20:34] <RocketBoyV1> ha - we used to tell jokes in morse down the pub
[20:34] <jcoxon> thats not cool
[20:34] <jcoxon> :-p
[20:34] <robert1971> Any one know of a good way to program avr chips from vista. I dealy for free?
[20:34] <RocketBoyV1> bbl
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[20:35] <EI5GTB> a friend of mine is a wedding photographer, he always calls cq when beeping the horn in weddins :P
[20:42] <edmoore> robert1971: does winavr not work?
[20:43] <edmoore> and the more important question - have you checked out avrfreaks.net?
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[20:43] <EI5GTB> speaking about avrs, no ones aver heard of a MYAVR board?
[20:44] <edmoore> nope, but I am not an expert. laurenceb uses AVRs for most of his stuff, he'll probs be on later
[20:45] <robert1971> No keeps going on about not being able to make cc1
[20:46] <robert1971> avr-gcc: installation problem, cannot exec `cc1': No such file or directory
[20:46] <robert1971> I'm googleing
[20:53] <robert1971> I think I had a realy old version of win avr. I'm getting the latest on as I type
[20:54] <edmoore> #avr might be able to help
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[21:00] <jnd> yep we will try :)
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[21:12] <edmoore> jnd - ?
[21:13] <edmoore> oh avr
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[21:35] Action: robert1971 has go avr-gcc to compile :-)
[21:36] Action: EI5GTB has to spend 3 hours in #avr
[21:36] <EI5GTB> and still cant get it to work
[21:36] <robert1971> \/s/go/got
[21:36] <EI5GTB> well, it hasnt been 3 hours
[21:36] <EI5GTB> but iv been playing with this for 3 months now
[21:39] <edmoore> lol
[21:39] <edmoore> it's worth it - avrs are lovely things to work with once the toolchain is set up. I've not used them all that much but they are fun when I do.
[21:46] <SpeedEvil> How much are balloons, and are they available online?
[21:46] Action: SpeedEvil looks at http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TOTEX-350-grm-12-FOOT-dia-LATEX-MASSIVE-WEATHER-BALLOON_W0QQitemZ280251564144QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item280251564144&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318
[21:49] <fnoble> anyone got any ideas on a robust algorithm to extract the two main peaks of a graph
[21:50] <fnoble> or more specifically the peaks most likely to be the mark and space on an FFT
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> take the derivitave, and look for the largest inflextion?
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> of a FSK?
[21:51] <fnoble> yeah FSK
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> I assume you know the frequency shift then?
[21:52] <fnoble> well, roughtly
[21:52] <fnoble> would be nice if it wasnt assumed
[21:52] <fnoble> as it can drift potentially
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> I'd be looking at a the correlation of an ideal function - say two bars spaced by 10Khz or whatever, with the input spectrum.
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> Find at what offset the correlation is best
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[21:54] <fnoble> perhaps - gut instinct says its easier than that though
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Giant-Kaymont-600gram-Meteorological-Weather-Balloon_W0QQitemZ130241749208QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item130241749208&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177 (on another topic) says 1KPa burst pressure.
[21:56] <SpeedEvil> That's pretty easy.
[21:56] Action: SpeedEvil wonders how to make a passive regulator.
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[21:58] <fnoble> SpeedEvil: to let some gas out the balloon near apogee?
[21:58] <edmoore> fnoble: gut instince would just be to split the fft into two symmetrical search bins about the central freq
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> fnoble: yes
[21:59] <edmoore> and then use a normal peak detection algorithm
[21:59] <edmoore> we're seriously up shit creek if that's not robust enougn, and we'd be manually intervening anyway
[21:59] <fnoble> edmoore: dont want to have to know a freq that is between the two peaks
[22:00] <edmoore> are you basing this of the drawing in the window or the raw fft?
[22:00] <edmoore> off*
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> fnoble: to reduce the lift as the balloon approaches bursting.
[22:00] <fnoble> as is can drift more by more than the shift
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> fnoble: if the freqyency shift is 10Khz, then you can do a window from 9-11Khz shift.
[22:00] <fnoble> SpeedEvil: i was going to say that is basically the idea of a zero pressure balloon
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> Say a 1.5Khz bin centered on '0' and a 1.5Khz bin centered on '10'.
[22:01] <fnoble> edmoore: can do it off either
[22:02] <fnoble> edmoore: i was using the time averaged data buffered for the window and transforming it back to the same coordinate system
[22:02] <fnoble> s/same/proper
[22:02] <edmoore> fnoble: am heading out but will have a think about it. might have an idea
[22:02] <fnoble> ok
[22:03] <edmoore> can it be floating point?
[22:03] <fnoble> remember there are some peaks which are bigger than the actual ones we are looking for
[22:03] <fnoble> sure, for now on the pc
[22:03] <edmoore> you're not wacking it on a micro or nuthin?
[22:03] <fnoble> not yet :)
[22:03] <edmoore> ok - what's the freq range of the entire fft?
[22:03] <fnoble> but it really neednt be
[22:03] <fnoble> the fft bins are bigger than 1hz
[22:04] <SpeedEvil> I don't see what's wrong with correlating it with the expected frequency spectrum.
[22:04] <edmoore> but it will need some prior knoweledge if you want to find two specific peaks in a range of peaks
[22:04] <SpeedEvil> With an average thrown in of course.
[22:04] <edmoore> if they're not going to be the two largest, that is
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[22:04] <SpeedEvil> Maybe even a slower FFT, that looks for the expected sidebands of the data modulation.
[22:04] <fnoble> edmoore: yeah, the other peaks are very low frequency
[22:05] <fnoble> so actually its easy to exclude them
[22:05] <edmoore> so a shift or a likely location - we can make stochastic searching models easily enough, they're robust
[22:05] <edmoore> ok
[22:05] <edmoore> well will have a think
[22:05] <edmoore> bbl
[22:05] <fnoble> there are actually quite a few annoying cases
[22:05] <fnoble> and caveats to it
[22:38] <akawaka> i wonder how long i can run an amp from a 80AH deep cycle battery
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> The clue is in the name!
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> 80 amp-hours
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> 80 amp * hours
[22:38] <akawaka> yeah
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> so 80 hours, plus a bit because of the way they are rated.
[22:39] <akawaka> i don't know what the average consumption of the amp is
[22:39] <SpeedEvil> Oh.
[22:39] <SpeedEvil> Sorry - I was assuming amp = ampere, sorry.
[22:39] <akawaka> it has a 30amp fuse, i hope the average is significantly less than that
[22:39] <SpeedEvil> What sort of amp?
[22:40] <akawaka> stereo car amp, 45W RMS x 2
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> Are you going to wind it up all teh way?
[22:40] <akawaka> depends how loud it is
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> 150W or so is probably a reasonable guesstimate.
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> If it's up all the way.
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> That's about 13A.
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> So 5h.
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> 150W into decent speakers is quite loud indeed.
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> unless you're outdoors.
[22:41] <akawaka> outdoors
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> This is for an outdoor event of some sort?
[22:42] <akawaka> kind of
[22:42] <akawaka> volleyball tournament down the beach this weekend
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[22:43] <akawaka> want some music for our area
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> You want a lure then.
[22:43] <akawaka> not for the whole event
[22:43] <akawaka> just our spot
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> What sort of music?
[22:43] <akawaka> dunno, whatever people have on their ipods
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> If it's really heavy compressed pop, then 100W or so is probably realistic. - 8h ish.
[22:44] <jcoxon> hey all
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> Hey.
[22:46] <jcoxon> hey hey
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[23:09] <edmoore> fnoble: bayesians on both centre freq and spacing, both with beta distributions as the prior
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Telit-GE863-GPS-Project-PCB-GSM-Tracker-Module-12v_W0QQitemZ200241843933QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item200241843933&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> maybe interestings.
[23:09] <edmoore> and now we just turn the above into code
[23:15] <SpeedEvil> Cheap GSM modules. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TC35i-SIEMENS-GSM-Dual-Band-Wireless-Module_W0QQitemZ150274660980QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item150274660980&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318 (though awkward connector)
[23:19] <edmoore> no, not awkward
[23:19] <edmoore> fnoble: ping if you are here
[23:20] <edmoore> just as easy/difficult as the telit which ended up being fine
[23:20] <edmoore> but much cheaper
[23:20] <jcoxon> right
[23:20] Action: jcoxon is going back to tescos tomorrow to get another cheapy webcam
[23:21] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: the connector is a fine pitch flex-con
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[23:28] <edmoore_> that TC35 module is a very very good deal
[23:29] <jcoxon> thats like the one i have on goliath
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> 1800/1900 only - but that's not a problem for t-mobile or the other one
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> http://www.wivia.com/product_info.php/products_id/61 has cheap cables for it
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[23:43] <Laurenceb> hi everyone
[23:45] <SpeedEvil> Hi.
[23:46] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: was wondering about the helium valve thing. An ebay listing implied a burst pressure of 1Kpa for a large balloon (600g) I wonder about passive valves.
[23:47] <Laurenceb> IIRC the pressure descreases as it inflates
[23:47] <Laurenceb> sory, cooking atm, bbl
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> that was the burst pressure
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> wave
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[23:48] <SpeedEvil> True, of course it bursts when it decreases to that pressure. Oh well.
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> I was also wondering about another silliness. closed container of propane, liquid at altitude (maybe butane). methane filled balloon. Open the container, and ethane dissolves in the methane. Heat the propane to release the ethane again.
[23:57] <jcoxon> hmmm any uk people around, can you think of a shop that sells webcams
[23:57] <jcoxon> (i've tried currys, smiths and tescos
[23:57] <jcoxon> )
[00:00] --- Thu Jul 31 2008