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[11:06] <fnoble> hello
[11:22] <gordonjcp> hi
[11:27] <edmoore> fnoble hi
[11:29] Robert1971 (n=rharriso@gateway.hgf.com) joined #highaltitude.
[11:29] <Robert1971> who
[11:29] <Robert1971> ?
[11:31] <jcoxon> hey Robert1971
[11:31] <edmoore> hi jcoxon, fnoble
[11:31] <edmoore> and Robert1971
[11:31] <jcoxon> hey
[11:31] <jcoxon> i'm only popping in for 10 mins
[11:32] <fnoble> hi james
[11:33] <edmoore> fnoble: fancy ebay camera shopping?
[11:34] <fnoble> do we need to buy cameras?
[11:34] <edmoore> yup
[11:35] <edmoore> prems aren't man enough for sunriseing
[11:35] <fnoble> arent we using doug's for the next launch?
[11:36] <edmoore> not guaranteed, plus we can't use them every launch. Also...
[11:36] <jcoxon> also i haven't asked doug :-p
[11:37] <edmoore> exactly
[11:37] <jcoxon> Robert1971, so hows the project coming along?
[11:52] <jcoxon> bbl
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[12:28] <edmoore> fnoble: back
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[13:12] <jcoxon> soneil, you around?
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[13:14] <EI5GTB> soneil, you around? jcoxon tells me you in ireland, and interested in a high altitude baloon project
[13:14] <EI5GTB> im also interested
[13:16] <edmoore> EI5GTB: does that mean you're in ireland too?
[13:16] <EI5GTB> yup
[13:19] <edmoore> cool
[13:19] <edmoore> an irish balloon scene would be awesome - you could fly them over the sea and we could pick them up
[13:19] <EI5GTB> iv been looking to do a balloon noe for over 6 monmths
[13:20] <edmoore> well, they're bloody brilliant
[13:20] <jcoxon> calm down edmoore
[13:20] <edmoore> lots of electronics and radio fun for a £40 balloon
[13:20] <edmoore> jcoxon: am enthusiastic! can't wait to do this sunrise stuff
[13:20] <jcoxon> wel i'm working on it
[13:20] <fnoble> yeah,the sunrise launch will be awesome
[13:21] <fnoble> i wonder if we could have 1.2 ready by then...
[13:21] <EI5GTB> edmoore, that would be pretty cool actually, we could have a meeting twice or 3 times a year and exchange baloons again :p
[13:21] <edmoore> haha
[13:21] <edmoore> it would be great
[13:21] <edmoore> fnoble: yes we can
[13:21] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, check out wiki.ukhas.org.uk
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[13:22] <edmoore> fnoble: wheel radius is roughly wavelngth/(2+0.6666*pi)
[13:22] <EI5GTB> im on the wast coast tho =/
[13:22] <edmoore> so it's in fact a bit smaller than the current setup, which is nice
[13:22] <fnoble> edmoore, its not that simple, i hae a lot of commitments to do other things in the next couple of weeks
[13:22] <edmoore> fnoble: i'm thinking beyond the next couple of weeks
[13:22] <edmoore> like, end of sept
[13:22] <fnoble> edmoore, but the groundplane should go out to one wavelength
[13:23] <edmoore> really?
[13:23] <edmoore> radius or dia?
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[13:23] <fnoble> sorry not one wavelength, but as big as possible
[13:24] <fnoble> i think 1/2 wavelength dia would be sensible and not too big
[13:24] <edmoore> that's a meter
[13:24] <edmoore> that's a hecka ground plane
[13:24] <EI5GTB> the more ground plane the better :)
[13:24] <edmoore> oh sorry confused
[13:24] <fnoble> no, its 34cm
[13:24] <edmoore> oh ok, yeah, fine
[13:24] <edmoore> i thought you mean 1.5
[13:25] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, what are the radio rules for balloons in ireland?
[13:25] <edmoore> so we can plonk a random dialectric number on the squishy foam of say 1.05
[13:25] <jcoxon> as in the UK they are actually quite restrictive
[13:25] <edmoore> and we have the landing softener
[13:25] <jcoxon> (this is for altitude rather then on the ground)
[13:25] <EI5GTB> jcoxon, very bad.....aeronautical mobile is......non-existent
[13:26] <EI5GTB> im going to start making some enquierys with comreg
[13:26] <EI5GTB> i couldnt get anything out of the IAA either about unmanned free baloons
[13:26] <edmoore> oh i see why helix's work well underneath
[13:26] <edmoore> d'oh
[13:26] <jcoxon> basically we've found that here you can only use unlicenced
[13:26] <jcoxon> so everything we do is 10mW
[13:27] <EI5GTB> :O
[13:27] <jcoxon> but
[13:27] <EI5GTB> any of you guys licenced hams?
[13:27] <jcoxon> some of us
[13:27] <edmoore> Yep (not me) but they are on the scene
[13:28] <fnoble> launching in ireland and picking up in the UK would mean almost any day would have suitable jetstream
[13:28] <EI5GTB> i see
[13:28] <jcoxon> the reason most of us aren't is that it doesn't matter
[13:28] <jcoxon> as the ham freqs aren't allowed to be used at altitude
[13:28] <EI5GTB> jcoxon, they are in america
[13:28] <jcoxon> (it would help for the uplink)
[13:28] <jcoxon> yeah
[13:28] <edmoore> you have to fly unlicensed low power stuff, or spend ££££ on a license
[13:28] <EI5GTB> really?
[13:28] <EI5GTB> i must speak to a few people i know in comreg...se what i can do..
[13:30] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, but at 10mW using rtty we've got a good couple of hundred km range
[13:30] <jcoxon> hence why we don't use aprs
[13:30] <EI5GTB> yea, thats not surprising
[13:30] <EI5GTB> but i was planning on live video downlinks and all
[13:30] <jcoxon> might be different in ireland
[13:30] <EI5GTB> impossible at 10mw when the baloon is 20km up:p
[13:30] <jcoxon> if it is then we are coming over
[13:31] <jcoxon> its certainly made us think differently about how we go about stuff
[13:31] <jcoxon> but we are making progress :-D
[13:31] <EI5GTB> heh
[13:31] <EI5GTB> well, you are all most welcome to come over when im launching my first balloons
[13:31] <EI5GTB> balloon*
[13:32] <edmoore> We have live tracking on t'web 'n' all
[13:32] <jcoxon> edmoore, yeah but EI5GTB will use aprs
[13:32] <edmoore> oh yeah
[13:32] <edmoore> fair enough
[13:32] <jcoxon> so it'll be online for him
[13:32] <edmoore> be like that
[13:32] <jcoxon> hehe
[13:32] <edmoore> established protocols. grumble grumble.
[13:33] <EI5GTB> heh
[13:33] <EI5GTB> the aprs system is great
[13:33] <EI5GTB> the system i have at the minue as an aux switch aswell
[13:33] <edmoore> yeah, we would use it if we could
[13:33] <EI5GTB> so i can send it a message (from anywhere in the world) and it will......initiate cutdown or whatever
[13:33] <jcoxon> edmoore, in some ways we are developing our own low power version
[13:34] <EI5GTB> in practice....it would probably be legal to use aprs over pmr
[13:34] <edmoore> that's exactly what we're doing
[13:35] <jcoxon> UKHAS should probably be expanded to include Ireland
[13:35] <EI5GTB> well, ill hopefully start an irish group, we can merge then
[13:35] <jcoxon> actually it would also need to include Canda and the US
[13:35] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, yeah
[13:35] <edmoore> HAS, how about
[13:36] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, do you have a 70cm rig?
[13:36] <EI5GTB> yup
[13:36] <EI5GTB> a few,,
[13:36] <jcoxon> would be interesting to see if you could listen in on our launches
[13:37] <EI5GTB> i woulnt think i could
[13:37] <fnoble> yeah, i wouldnt be suprised if you could
[13:37] <edmoore> EI5GTB: yeah that would be great. Though wales is in the way
[13:37] <EI5GTB> well, i could go to the top of a mountain the day you ar launcging
[13:38] <EI5GTB> if you guys could have someone on 80m to let me know whats happening
[13:38] <EI5GTB> i could be on the top of a mountain
[13:38] <fnoble> jcoxon managed to pick up out radio clearly in london from near nottingham
[13:38] <edmoore> with a whip antenna
[13:38] <EI5GTB> hmm
[13:38] <EI5GTB> i have a 70cm yagi
[13:39] <edmoore> we have one too, but haven't been even close to needing to use it in anger rate
[13:39] <edmoore> should maybe wack on a secondary high data rate antenna to play with, on e day
[13:39] <EI5GTB> but still, it would be nice to get a licence to run 1w 2m aprs
[13:40] <edmoore> agreed. we could do shed loads with 1W
[13:40] <jcoxon> its certainly been looked into
[13:40] <EI5GTB> yea
[13:40] <EI5GTB> well, im gonna start looking into it here
[13:40] <jcoxon> a couple of years ago
[13:40] <jcoxon> OFCOM are very against it
[13:40] <EI5GTB> once i get a few people to form a group with..
[13:40] <edmoore> they just need persistant nudging, i reckon
[13:40] <EI5GTB> yea
[13:40] <edmoore> one of these years
[13:41] <jcoxon> perhaps
[13:41] <EI5GTB> do you know anyone in the rsgb
[13:41] <jcoxon> oh we've had meetings with ofcom about this
[13:41] <EI5GTB> i see
[13:41] <jcoxon> even with some testing at their lab
[13:41] <EI5GTB> its the fact they do it in america with no bother =/
[13:42] <EI5GTB> what kind of testing?
[13:42] <jcoxon> rocketboy (not on right now )was down there
[13:42] <jcoxon> i'm not sure
[13:42] <EI5GTB> hmm
[13:43] <jcoxon> rocketboy (G8KHW)
[13:44] <EI5GTB> cool
[13:44] <edmoore> It takes 28 seconds for octave to parse this csv file. And I have a loop doing that 39000 times. Hrm.
[13:44] <jcoxon> perhaps an ofcom experimental licence will become easier to get
[13:44] <edmoore> Think I might code this bit in C.
[13:45] <Robert1971> Hi all
[13:45] <jcoxon> hey Robert1971
[13:45] <Robert1971> This is my first time on IRC so finding my feet abit here. Just been in a meeting so being quiet for the last 2 hours
[13:46] <jcoxon> Robert1971, no worries - most people just lurk and then pop up
[13:46] <EI5GTB> http://maps.google.com/ search for ei5gtb
[13:46] <EI5GTB> thats my locatiob
[13:46] <Robert1971> Being working on the Ixus camera hack in the wiki
[13:46] <edmoore> Robert1971: it's inherently not as hands on as other forms of IM. You can just lurk or leave messages for people or whatever
[13:47] <edmoore> saw it - very nice indeed.
[13:47] <jcoxon> http://natrium42.com/track/
[13:47] <Robert1971> Nice to have some people to talk to about this stuff. The wife has had enough, though she likes the idea
[13:47] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, last weeks flight, as tracked by me
[13:47] <Robert1971> Getting the video will be useful
[13:48] <EI5GTB> jcoxon, hmm, i se
[13:48] <EI5GTB> pretty good
[13:49] <jcoxon> from the middle of london on a whip antenna
[13:49] <jcoxon> could make it to the launch, next time it'll be a complete track
[13:49] <EI5GTB> hmm
[13:49] <jcoxon> couldn't*
[13:50] <EI5GTB> does the jetstream ever go SE over ireland?
[13:50] <EI5GTB> thats the only time i could launchh
[13:51] <jcoxon> its generally a W -> E direction
[13:51] <jcoxon> (last week was unusual)
[13:51] <EI5GTB> hmm, i see
[13:51] <jcoxon> being on an island does make it harder
[13:51] <EI5GTB> the only bugger about being here, is that i would have to get a licence and atc clearence from irish authorities, and brisish ones =/
[13:52] <jcoxon> actually you might not
[13:52] <EI5GTB> ?
[13:52] <jcoxon> this may sound strange
[13:52] <jcoxon> but there are some international laws about balloons
[13:52] <edmoore> EI5GTB: we won't tell if you don't
[13:52] <jcoxon> stuff about crossing over other countries
[13:52] <EI5GTB> oh..
[13:53] <jcoxon> but i've only been told about them, have never found them
[13:53] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, anyway i'm sure we could sort it out for you - we have a good contact in the CAA
[13:53] <EI5GTB> hm
[13:53] <EI5GTB> i see
[13:53] <EI5GTB> its radio that worries me tho
[13:53] <EI5GTB> thats the whole reason i would be doing it ;p
[13:54] <Robert1971> Can anyone recommend a free IRC client
[13:54] <jcoxon> Robert1971, what os?
[13:54] <Robert1971> Win
[13:54] <Robert1971> At work
[13:54] <Robert1971> Linux @ home
[13:54] <jcoxon> win - mirc
[13:54] <jcoxon> linux - xchat
[13:54] <Robert1971> Tops
[13:54] <jcoxon> mac - xchat-aqua
[13:55] <Robert1971> I'll pay the 20 bucks for mirc then
[13:55] <jcoxon> oh
[13:55] <jcoxon> wait
[13:55] <jcoxon> don't use mirc then
[13:55] <jcoxon> http://www.ircreviews.org/clients/platforms-windows.html
[13:55] <Robert1971> Nice one
[13:56] <jcoxon> i think you can get xchat on windows
[13:56] <jcoxon> http://www.xchat.org/download/
[13:56] <jcoxon> yup
[13:56] <jcoxon> go for that
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[13:57] <EI5GTB> im using x-chat on windows
[13:59] <edmoore> jcoxon: macs = colloquy
[14:00] <jcoxon> edmoore, you still using colloquy?
[14:00] <edmoore> jcoxon: after sunrise, I have another thing I've always wanted to do
[14:00] <edmoore> jcoxon: yeah, gave up with xchat-aqua
[14:00] <edmoore> a bit unpolished
[14:00] <jcoxon> urgh colloquy
[14:00] <EI5GTB> whats a Fergus-type explosive
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[14:01] <edmoore> ?
[14:01] <jcoxon> speak of the devil
[14:01] <edmoore> oh
[14:01] <edmoore> in the context of why nova 6 and 7 failed to cutdown?
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[14:01] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, is that on the wiki?
[14:01] <EI5GTB> yea
[14:01] <EI5GTB> oh
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[14:02] <EI5GTB> theres nothing about it on the wiki
[14:02] <EI5GTB> but its mentioned on one of the launches
[14:03] <edmoore> just some configuration of gunpowder and plastic
[14:03] <jcoxon> isn't that a rocketboy explosive
[14:03] <edmoore> no
[14:03] <edmoore> because he didn't make it
[14:03] <jcoxon> actually l remember as i rigged it on the line
[14:04] <EI5GTB> spose you guys need a licence for that..
[14:04] <edmoore> nope
[14:04] <edmoore> 0.1g of smokeless powder won't bother anyone
[14:05] <edmoore> jcoxon, fnoble. Can I propose an apres-sunrise mission. The 'other' thing I've wanted to do for a while...
[14:05] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, they look like this http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/ideas:flight_support#pyrotechnic_cutdown_device
[14:05] <jcoxon> but with some additional powder
[14:05] <edmoore> it's kind of extreme-ballooning compared to usual
[14:06] <jcoxon> ...
[14:06] <EI5GTB> i see
[14:06] <EI5GTB> where do you buy em
[14:06] <EI5GTB> or do you make em?
[14:06] <edmoore> make 'em
[14:06] <edmoore> byro tube
[14:06] <edmoore> shatters nicely
[14:06] <edmoore> epoxy the ends
[14:06] <EI5GTB> where do i buy gunpowder tho?
[14:07] <edmoore> any hunting supplies shop will sell you smokeless powder
[14:07] <edmoore> or go to a fireworks shop and take them apart
[14:07] Action: jcoxon doesn't like explosives
[14:07] <EI5GTB> edmoore, i see....you not need a licence to buy powder tho?
[14:08] <edmoore> you just need one to transport it - an RCA? I forget
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[14:08] <edmoore> but it's one of the very much less restricted things - you ask for one in the post and one comes back 3 days later
[14:08] <edmoore> and then you can get the smokeless powder
[14:08] <edmoore> or, as i said, fireworks
[14:08] <EI5GTB> i see
[14:09] <dusty> Nah, Pyrodex in the U.S is easy to get.
[14:09] <EI5GTB> here do i apply for this?
[14:09] <jcoxon> hey dusty
[14:09] <dusty> hi. Nice channel. :)
[14:09] <jcoxon> thanks - its not always this busy :-p
[14:09] <edmoore> So anyway, mission proposal for a rainy day
[14:10] <edmoore> (quite literally)
[14:10] <EI5GTB> anyway, i dont have to worry about cutdown devices judt yet :P
[14:10] <jcoxon> go on
[14:10] <edmoore> take a large balloon, high lift, take abdger truck (water proof and bomb proof).
[14:10] <edmoore> wait for a strom
[14:10] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, one step at a time - that said it'll be important to avoid teh sea
[14:10] <EI5GTB> haha yea
[14:10] <EI5GTB> well, dad does have a boat!
[14:10] <edmoore> release it up into the storm cloud, see the awesome ascent rates as it gets sucked up by up-drafts
[14:11] <edmoore> then get spactacular images of cumulo nimbus from above
[14:11] <jcoxon> :-D
[14:11] <jcoxon> its doable
[14:11] <jcoxon> the balloon has to survive the climb
[14:11] <EI5GTB> all my payloads will have waterproofing anyway!
[14:11] <edmoore> the jet stream is frequently very swirly during storm periods so there's a good chance it won't be it's usual -out-to-north-sea self
[14:12] <edmoore> jcoxon: yes it does
[14:12] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, good, we've lost many a good payload to the sea
[14:12] <edmoore> but i have confidence that it can
[14:12] <jcoxon> sounds fun
[14:12] <edmoore> it won't be subject to massive forces once its up there - it doesn't provide any resistance to the wind, it just goes where the wind takes it
[14:13] <edmoore> and we should get a high ascent rate with luck
[14:13] <edmoore> but maybe leave tracking to a remove pan-tilt thing and pick it up later. I don't want to be driving down the road holding a yagi out the window during a storm
[14:14] <edmoore> remote*
[14:14] <edmoore> and we probably couldn't keep up with it anyway
[14:15] <EI5GTB> im currently making a tracker for just that purpose
[14:15] <EI5GTB> it takes the location of the device, and calculates the az/elevation
[14:15] <edmoore> well I'm confident in the abilities of our kit to track and recover
[14:15] <EI5GTB> then points the yagi/dish accordingly
[14:15] <edmoore> oh right, yes us too
[14:15] <EI5GTB> cool
[14:15] <edmoore> it's been on the menu for a while now, just havent got round to building it
[14:15] <jcoxon> right guys, time to go shopping, then revision, will bbl
[14:15] <EI5GTB> byee
[14:16] <edmoore> but it would be so cool to release it up into a storm. poke around in the belly of the beast
[14:16] <edmoore> cya jcoxon
[14:16] <EI5GTB> well, im using an old cctv pan/tilt head
[14:16] <EI5GTB> its a bit slow
[14:16] <EI5GTB> but it can rotate me
[14:16] <edmoore> doesn't need to be fast
[14:16] <EI5GTB> you could easily put a 2m dish onit
[14:16] <edmoore> EI5GTB: thats a really good idea
[14:16] <edmoore> an old cctv head
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> I worked out some numbers for that before.
[14:16] <EI5GTB> yea
[14:16] <edmoore> where does one pick those up?
[14:16] <EI5GTB> i got mine at a radio rally
[14:17] <EI5GTB> for 50 euro
[14:17] <EI5GTB> wortj liek 3,000 new
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> I came out with 200mW 2.4GHz on the top, 2.4m dish on the bottom, wifi 1mbps, 50Km or so range.
[14:17] <edmoore> cheaper than we could make it for, almost certainly
[14:17] <EI5GTB> cool
[14:17] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: does that incluse Arse factor or not?
[14:17] <EI5GTB> and coud..
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: very little
[14:18] <edmoore> arse factor always gets us
[14:18] <EI5GTB> cloud has quite a db/loss in clouds
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: probably 30Km would be more like it.
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> clear day only.
[14:18] <edmoore> yeah
[14:18] <edmoore> EI5GTB: good point
[14:18] <EI5GTB> now...if you can crank it up to 500mw
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[14:18] <SpeedEvil> 200mW cards are readily available cheap - I haven't seen 500mW
[14:18] <edmoore> but if we can track our telem with a whip antenna from 200k away, a yagi should be able to deal with it in cloudy conditions
[14:18] <edmoore> how do you lightening protect an antenna?
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - telemetry is 'easy'.
[14:19] <edmoore> don't really want to ground it.......
[14:19] <EI5GTB> well, i have a 1w 2.4ghz amp here somewhere
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: fast protection devices on the antenna.
[14:19] <edmoore> maybe we'll just stick a lightening conductor on a post above it
[14:20] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: this is not me field of expertise at all - what physical form does a fast protection device take?
[14:20] <edmoore> brb 1 min.
[14:20] <EI5GTB> to lightning protect your payload....you need a spike at the top, connected to a spike at the bottom
[14:20] <EI5GTB> although there will be a bit of an emp pulse, might knock out some stuff
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: little semiconductor stuff.
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: hang on
[14:22] <edmoore> EI5GTB: I wasn't too bothered about payload
[14:22] <EI5GTB> well, thats the way to protect your antennas
[14:22] <edmoore> i figure it is small enouhg to equalise its charge enough to not cause a lightening strike
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> radioactive contactors ++
[14:22] <EI5GTB> if the antenna is the lowest or gighest conductive object, the lightening will go through it
[14:23] <edmoore> EI5GTB: I'm also not to keen on 'spike on the bottom' when it comes to balloon payloads :)
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: http://www.polyphaser.com/productdata.aspx?class=app
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[14:24] <EI5GTB> edmoore, never thought of that :P
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[14:25] <edmoore> EI5GTB: yeah, you never know with these things.
[14:25] <EI5GTB> yea
[14:25] <EI5GTB> use a steel balloon
[14:25] <edmoore> lol
[14:25] <EI5GTB> anyone watch mythbusters?
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> http://www.polyphaser.com/productdetail.aspx?item=GT-DFF-AL
[14:25] <EI5GTB> lead balloon...
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> looks possible
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> You'd need a metal box for your payload though.
[14:27] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: it won't be entirely metal
[14:27] <edmoore> but we can cover it in aluminium foil np
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[14:27] <edmoore> it'll be covered in alumised kapton at any rate anyway
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> It needs to be lowish impedence.
[14:28] <EI5GTB> right, i must go do stuff
[14:28] <EI5GTB> chat later
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> That reminds me.
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> I need to get my laser+tracker setup for next shuttle launch.
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> I want to see if I can get the laser visible in the ISS camera view on NASA-TV.
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[14:35] <robert1971> .
[14:37] <EI5GTB> SpeedEvil, that sounds interesting
[14:38] <SpeedEvil> The numbers look plausible for a 100mW green.
[14:38] <EI5GTB> hmm
[14:41] <edmoore> Whilst it's in orbit?
[14:41] <SpeedEvil> Well - yes.
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[14:42] <SpeedEvil> Doing it on the ground is rather trivial, only involving a trip to florida.
[14:42] <SpeedEvil> And explaining to the angry men with guns that it wasn't attached to a weapon.
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[14:51] <edmoore> well shout if you think you might get it working
[14:51] <edmoore> I saw it go over on Sunday evening at about 11. It was pretty spectacular
[14:52] <edmoore> definitely getting very noticeably brighter as they throw more stuff on
[14:55] <robert1971> Any one know how to replace an imge uploaded to the ukhas wiki? Or do i need to be admin to do that?
[14:57] <robert1971> Yep you need to be admin for that.
[14:59] <edmoore> hrm
[14:59] <edmoore> ask jcoxon when he gets back, he'l be able to sort it out
[15:02] <edmoore> robert1971: will be great though to see what happens when people take nice cameras up.
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[15:34] <robert1971> I have a nice digital slr which would take some great pics but I think a few test missions first will be in order before I send up 1k worth of camera. I may try to get canon to give up an slr for the project.
[15:35] <edmoore> robert1971: we're playing the same game
[15:35] <edmoore> http://spacefellowship.com/News/?p=6152
[15:36] <edmoore> that's with ebay junk. I have a nikon DSLR I might take up one day, once we know all our subsystems tend to perform well.
[15:36] <edmoore> Likewise trying to get nikon to donate one
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> I think you need to point it down to get much effect from a SLR.
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Otherwise the air mass just blurs stuff.
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> And if it's pointed up - and gets a stars-only, then you probably need a stabilisation system of some sort.
[15:40] <edmoore> We should be ok as we are.
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> Yeah. you can get very nice pics even without SLR.
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> dynamic range's more important than resolution.
[15:41] <edmoore> No, I mean we should be ok using an SLR in the same way that we use compacts now.
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> Oh sure. I just mean you won't really get much benefit I think.
[15:42] <edmoore> We'll see when we get the results.
[15:42] <SpeedEvil> results beat speculation every time.
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> I got some nice first surface mirrors from ebay.
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> You could put one in front of the lens, to give a right-angle. I'm going to try to use them for laser ranger scanning.
[15:53] <soneil> EI5GTB: ping
[15:57] <robert1971> I have managed to interface my Isus 400 with a servo to allow a range of shots. Fingers crossed I may even be able to download them over a radio modem connection.
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[15:57] <edmoore> robert1971: where are you flying from?
[15:59] <robert1971> Leeds'ish
[15:59] <edmoore> have you played the legal-transmission-power game yet?
[16:00] <robert1971> I haven't got to that bit yet still in the building phase. Hope to be ready for launch in 3 months
[16:00] <robert1971> Is that the bit where you shouldn't send up radio modems to piss off the radio world
[16:01] <edmoore> something like that
[16:01] <edmoore> well, 10mW is your limit
[16:01] <edmoore> says Mr Ofcom
[16:01] <robert1971> I wondered about that, but 2 hours should upset too many people I hope. Perhaps broadcasting my images to half of europe might not be a good idea
[16:04] <robert1971> I spoke to a few radio modem retailers and they seemed to think I would get away with it provided I didn't flood the spectrum with transmission from the balloon
[16:06] <edmoore> oh I'm sure no one would notice
[16:06] <edmoore> it's just the day when one grumpy ham sticks his nose in
[16:07] <robert1971> Apparenty the water, gas and elec companies use these wavelenghts to monitor kit
[16:07] <jcoxon> hey hey
[16:08] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[16:09] <robert1971> jcoxon: There are a couple of pictures uploaded to wiki which need to be removed as I have replaced them with better pics. Can I have rights to delete inages or shall I send you a list once my guide is complete?
[16:09] <jcoxon> you should be able to delete them
[16:09] <jcoxon> you know when you add a picture the media window opens up
[16:10] <jcoxon> next to the file there is a 'trash' icon which will delete it (if its not being used)
[16:11] <robert1971> Yep I don't get the trash can
[16:11] <robert1971> Just checked again. If I upload a pic with the same name it won't overwrite it either!
[16:12] <jcoxon> nah
[16:12] <jcoxon> okay well if you send me a list i'll delete them
[16:15] <robert1971> jcoxon: Just read the docuwiki
[16:15] <robert1971> It is sometimes necessary to remove a media, which was being uploaded before. To do this the ACL feature needs to be enabled and the user who wants to delete files needs to have the DELETE permission. Files can be deleted with the garbagecan icon then.
[16:15] <robert1971> I guess that explains the lack of a trash can
[16:17] <jcoxon> done
[16:17] <robert1971> thanks
[16:17] <jcoxon> try and reload that window now
[16:18] <jcoxon> right i'm off again
[16:18] <robert1971> Perfect
[16:18] <jcoxon> a little bit more work and then i'll be done for the day
[16:20] <edmoore> jcoxon: how much revision is that for tody?
[16:30] <bagpuss_thecat> pppht, 10mW... what band are you using?
[16:31] <edmoore> 70cm
[16:34] <bagpuss_thecat> what license does the license holder have?
[16:35] <bagpuss_thecat> in most cases, a foundation license can transmit at up to 10W on 70cm
[16:35] Action: bagpuss_thecat is allowed 50W
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> bagpuss_thecat: from a balloon?
[16:37] <bagpuss_thecat> can't recall the limits for remote transmissions
[16:37] Action: bagpuss_thecat wibbles
[16:37] <edmoore> bagpuss_thecat: in the uk you cannot transmit from unmanned airborne radios without a special 9expensive) permit
[16:38] <edmoore> so we are limited to the unlicensed stuff.
[16:38] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: or really large balloons.
[16:38] <bagpuss_thecat> bugger
[16:38] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: I don't follow
[16:38] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: for the radio operator.
[16:39] <edmoore> oh!
[16:39] <edmoore> thinking outside the box
[16:40] <edmoore> bagpuss_thecat: that said, that's plenty for text-string telemetry
[16:40] <edmoore> the curvature of the earth stops us hearing it long before radio power (or lack of) does
[16:41] <bagpuss_thecat> bonus :-)
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: what sort of SNR was jcoxon getting - do you know?
[16:43] <edmoore> when?
[16:43] <edmoore> for our recent flights?
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> Yes.
[16:44] <edmoore> afraid not, sorry, you'd have to ask him.
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> I'm idly wondering what datarate might be gotten by more advanced encodings.
[16:44] <edmoore> I think he just heard a clear signal and left it at that.
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> I think he said he wasn't even using a yagi?
[16:45] <edmoore> correct, just whip.
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> I need to get out my 433s from sparkfun and have a play.
[16:47] <edmoore> do.
[16:47] Action: bagpuss_thecat has his 70cm transciever sitting on the bedside cabinet
[16:47] <bagpuss_thecat> (don't ask)
[16:47] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: do you happen to know if the GPS of choice has PPS output?
[16:47] <edmoore> it does
[16:47] Action: SpeedEvil ponders.
[16:47] <edmoore> I think you have to capitalise it
[16:47] <edmoore> The GPS Of Choice
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> What is it again - the lassen IQ module from spakciun?
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> sparkfun
[16:48] <edmoore> that's the one
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: I assume no 10MHz output though.
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> :)
[16:48] <edmoore> what devious plans have you
[16:48] <edmoore> a drift free antenna?
[16:48] <edmoore> transmitter, even*
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: I'm contemplating a small frequency stabilised transmitter.
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> Able to maintain +-1Hz or so.
[16:49] <edmoore> indeed, i guessed :p
[16:49] <edmoore> well you can pll up from 1hz probably
[16:49] <edmoore> some DDS's will let you use pps to keep them in cheque.
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> Yes, of course you need a nice oscillator too.
[16:50] <edmoore> we had a look at it once too, but the current solution is simple and rock solid, for *our* needs anyway.
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> The second part of my evil plan is to use it for OFDM.
[17:06] <robert1971> opps
[17:06] <edmoore> ?
[17:06] <robert1971> Just playing with IRC.
[17:07] <edmoore> "/me enjoys irc" gives
[17:07] Action: edmoore enjoys irc
[17:07] <robert1971> is there a list of those / commands
[17:07] <edmoore> probably
[17:08] <edmoore> "!google blah" makes zeusbot (a robot who logs all the conversation on the channel) return the first google hit for blah
[17:08] <jcoxon> hey all
[17:08] <jcoxon> its the only thing that zeusbot does! ;-p
[17:09] <edmoore> zeusbot can be clever though, can't he?
[17:09] <jcoxon> yeah, its just an eggdrop bot
[17:09] <jcoxon> i'm too lazy to make him do more
[17:09] <jcoxon> he used to do countdowns
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[17:13] <robert1971> who
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[17:22] <edmoore> back
[17:23] <jcoxon> alright
[17:37] <edmoore> so the ublox gps units have an assisted start (cold start under 3 secs) if you provide them with the almanac and ephermis
[17:38] <edmoore> which is a 3kb file
[17:38] <edmoore> so...
[17:38] <edmoore> we can use the telit to download that and pipe in to the gps through the arm
[17:40] <edmoore> it's nice to know that exists.
[17:40] <jcoxon> hehe
[17:40] <jcoxon> good
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> Essential for when you need to launch a balloon without any notice at all :)
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: any idea of the excess signal of the 433MHz signals you tracked from nova last week?
[17:45] <edmoore> like... in a storm!
[17:46] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, sorry didn't pay any attention, it was 3.30 in the morning!
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: just wondering.
[17:48] <fnoble> back
[17:49] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon:" the one before that I mean
[17:50] <jcoxon> again, wasn't payling an attention to the radio - was just making sure i got a clear copy
[17:50] <jcoxon> paying*
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> k
[17:50] <jcoxon> sorry!
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> I was just wondering about hard numbers to see what OFDM might do in the same badn.
[17:53] <fnoble> SpeedEvil, also applting some clever FEC could get you some good gains
[17:53] <fnoble> without having to use a different transmitter
[17:53] Action: SpeedEvil punctures fnoble.
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
[17:54] <fnoble> thats a bit violent?!
[17:54] <edmoore> rs/viterbi seems like an obv choice, and I think alurenceb tried to use it a bit back
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=punctured+coding&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
[17:55] <fnoble> i did a lot of work on implementing some FEC stuff
[17:55] <fnoble> ra codes are the best if you want to implement the encode on a microcontroller
[17:56] <fnoble> turbo/lpdc etc take a bit more grunt to encode, but still possible, just maybe dont want to use that much cpu time for that
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> Microcontrollers vary a hell of a lot.
[17:56] <fnoble> well yes, sure, but ideally you want to keep as many cycles free as possible for doing ool stuff
[17:56] <edmoore> well pick your scheme and uC and make something.
[17:57] <edmoore> you'd probably want to throw a dedicated one at the radio
[17:57] <edmoore> if you were doing high speed comms with FEC or anything else that requires some CPU time
[17:57] <fnoble> meh, the RA encode is so trivial you could do 300 baud on an abacus
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> I'm building stuff with STM32s now.
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> They are fun.
[18:02] <fnoble> they do look nice
[18:02] <edmoore> Yeah, do like the look of them
[18:03] <edmoore> maybe if we get bored we could make a new badger board with them. but it's probnably worth going arm9 the day we feel that
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> stm32 is lots cheaper.
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> And simpler - no external busses.
[18:03] <edmoore> yeah
[18:03] <edmoore> a lot cheaper than the lpc
[18:03] <edmoore> bbiab
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[18:18] <edmoore> yo
[18:19] <natrium42> hey edmoore
[18:19] <edmoore> yo
[18:19] <edmoore> how's it going?
[18:20] <natrium42> pretty good, how are you?
[18:20] <natrium42> when is next try? :)
[18:20] <edmoore> sunrise probs a few weeks
[18:20] <fnoble> dunno yet - me, iain and rob are off for 3 weeks
[18:20] <fnoble> so not till after then probably
[18:20] <natrium42> ah, ok
[18:21] <jcoxon> oooo well...
[18:21] <jcoxon> i'm finished next week
[18:21] <jcoxon> i've got a launch pencilied in my diary for 2 weeks time
[18:21] <edmoore> might try a new/revised flight comp between now and then
[18:21] <fnoble> edmoore, im still able to work on that from here
[18:22] <edmoore> and i have a bee in my bonnet now about launching into a storm cloud
[18:22] <fnoble> ive finished fixing most of the bugs in the old version
[18:22] <fnoble> should have a skype/eagles session soon
[18:22] <edmoore> yes definitely
[18:22] <edmoore> natrium42: going to have to consolidate all these cool tracking things into one site between now and then too
[18:23] <edmoore> fnoble: probs worth going ahead on a mobile broad beans contract and dongle
[18:23] <fnoble> i really think they will sponsor us
[18:23] <fnoble> so we should wait until they reply
[18:24] <edmoore> oh you've emailed?
[18:24] <jcoxon> edmoore, and i've got one already
[18:24] <edmoore> ok cool
[18:24] <fnoble> iain already has i think
[18:24] <jcoxon> you can use that until its sorted
[18:24] <edmoore> ok cool. thanks
[18:25] Action: jcoxon twiddles his thumbs
[18:25] <edmoore> maybe the storm payload can be an identical set of hardware, so we'll have two trucks. the storm one being on constant alert, so to speak. And it'd be a fairly high-risk mission so I guess having a backup would be a good idea
[18:25] <edmoore> jcoxon: why twiddling?
[18:25] <jcoxon> waiting for that code
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> storm payload?
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> You kwazy!
[18:26] <edmoore> fluffy cloud pictures are fun for only so long
[18:27] <edmoore> wanna throw our little payload into the belly of a beast
[18:27] <edmoore> and get cool pictures of angry clouds from above.
[18:27] <fnoble> hmm, put the telit on the dev board
[18:27] Action: SpeedEvil ponders getting into an updraft, and blowing the balloon away.
[18:27] <fnoble> its not completely dead
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> Relying on a chute.
[18:27] <edmoore> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Cumulonimbus_cloud_from_space.jpg
[18:28] <fnoble> it flashes the status led
[18:28] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: yes, one tends to rely on chutes
[18:28] <fnoble> nifty photo
[18:28] <natrium42> edmoore, what about a picture of the moon?
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: no - for ascent.
[18:28] <jcoxon> natrium42, done that
[18:28] <jcoxon> peg III got the moon
[18:28] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: I'm not following
[18:29] <natrium42> oh? url plz
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: in an updraft, your sink rate may be lower than the rate of rise of the air.
[18:29] <edmoore> natrium42: yes that too - we can try and get a sunrise attempt to co-incide with a low bright moon
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: this will mean you go up, even after the balloon is popped.
[18:29] <fnoble> is there a nice simple serial temiinal emulator for linux
[18:29] <fnoble> ive been using minicom, which is ok
[18:29] <jcoxon> kermit
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> fnoble: minicom?
[18:29] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: not if your chute is not deployed.
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: of course.
[18:30] <fnoble> jcoxon, will try it out
[18:30] <jcoxon> i've always used kermit
[18:30] <edmoore> it won't be, in our case
[18:30] <edmoore> we'll wait till just off the ground before deploying a main
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: I was just wondering about better ways to ascend through active storms - as it seems that the balloon may be fragile.
[18:31] <fnoble> the balloon will be quite underinflated still at cloud altitude
[18:31] <edmoore> I think you will be hrd pressed to find one
[18:31] <fnoble> should be ok
[18:31] <edmoore> I do not share your concern about the fragility of the balloon
[18:31] <edmoore> they are quite tough - obviously you would use a larger less inflated one
[18:31] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: i was assuming hail would likely kill it.
[18:32] <edmoore> it's quite bouncy
[18:32] <edmoore> and remember, if it's moving at similar velocities to the rest of the clouds internals, the relative velocitys will not be that high
[18:33] <akawaka> i single website with a bunch of tracking, prediction and galleries/data would be cool
[18:34] <edmoore> ukhas could be that
[18:34] <edmoore> i notice a badger page has appeared
[18:35] <edmoore> and ukhas might make a good home for the combined efforts of james and natrium and anyone else who contributes to a tracking UI
[18:35] <jcoxon> phatmonkey is the person to speak to
[18:35] <phatmonkey> hello!
[18:35] <edmoore> it seems the obvious choice
[18:35] <phatmonkey> oh was anything happening about donations/memberships?
[18:35] <edmoore> sysadmin permiting, of course :)
[18:36] <phatmonkey> i'll read above a bit...
[18:36] <jcoxon> phatmonkey, you never gave me a rough estimation!
[18:36] <natrium42> which server is ukhas hosted on?
[18:36] <phatmonkey> 5-10 quid a month?
[18:36] <phatmonkey> i mean, even less if it's a problem
[18:36] <jcoxon> phatmonkey, i'll sort it
[18:36] <phatmonkey> i'm not all btohered
[18:36] <jcoxon> no no its no problem
[18:36] <phatmonkey> i'm just a penniless student with an expensive server
[18:36] <phatmonkey> hehe
[18:36] <natrium42> if many people track, dedicated is a must :P
[18:37] robert1971 (n=rharriso@gateway.hgf.com) left irc:
[18:37] <phatmonkey> what sort of thing is needed?
[18:37] <phatmonkey> at the moment it's just ukhas.org.uk and wiki.ukhas.org.uk on my own server
[18:37] <phatmonkey> but if there are a lot of things that need hosting
[18:37] <phatmonkey> i could get ukhas its own server
[18:37] <natrium42> hmm, i need some statistics first
[18:37] <phatmonkey> i run a bunch of VMs on a colocated server you see
[18:38] <phatmonkey> i mean, if you want to access it and things
[18:38] <phatmonkey> a separate machine would probably be a good idea
[18:38] <natrium42> basically the tracker sends requests periodically
[18:38] <edmoore> natrium42: I would suspect for the next sunrise there would be quite a few people
[18:38] <natrium42> so if you have many people, that's many requests
[18:38] <natrium42> edmoore, it would be nice to run a test
[18:39] <natrium42> with a few people
[18:39] <natrium42> and scale it up
[18:39] <natrium42> natrium42.com is hosted on a dedicated server, so it should handle quite a few people
[18:39] <phatmonkey> comet
[18:39] <phatmonkey> that's the answer
[18:39] <phatmonkey> apparently it's much better
[18:39] <phatmonkey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_(programming)
[18:40] <phatmonkey> a sneaky use of xmlhttprequest that keeps the connection open I think
[18:40] <phatmonkey> i haven't investigated it much
[18:40] <akawaka> it seems to encapsulate several ideas
[18:40] <natrium42> hmm
[18:40] <akawaka> but basically, rather than polling to see it there is new data you send a request and the server doesn't return until it has data to give you
[18:41] <akawaka> so a HTTP GET, for instance, would just not return anything until it either timed out or had data to give
[18:41] <akawaka> and if it times out you just re-request
[18:41] <natrium42> yah, makes sense
[18:41] <natrium42> i have seen it before
[18:41] <natrium42> might be worth trying
[18:42] <phatmonkey> but it's a speedy box
[18:42] <akawaka> you just gotta make sure your server can handle a large number of open connections
[18:42] <phatmonkey> so if you're effecient, it shouldn't be a problem
[18:42] <phatmonkey> efficient
[18:42] <phatmonkey> yeah
[18:42] <phatmonkey> well
[18:42] <phatmonkey> I expect you won't get *that* many visitors will you?
[18:42] <phatmonkey> lighttpd or something seems like an answer if you are expecting loads of traffic
[18:43] <natrium42> well, they did get slashdotted :D
[18:43] <phatmonkey> oh cool!
[18:43] <phatmonkey> I didn't spot it
[18:43] <natrium42> ed was mentioned in the blurb
[18:43] <fnoble> edmoore, talking to the telit, woot
[18:43] <natrium42> edmoore, congrats btw
[18:43] <phatmonkey> nice
[18:43] <phatmonkey> when was that?
[18:43] <akawaka> i guess you have to worry about the upper limit on the number of ports
[18:44] <edmoore> fnoble: awesome. send me a text!
[18:44] <edmoore> phatmonkey: yesterday
[18:44] <fnoble> edmoore gets all the credit these days :p
[18:44] <natrium42> phatmonkey, http://slashdot.org/index.pl?issue=20080727
[18:44] <edmoore> or maybe sunday eve US
[18:45] <edmoore> I was briefly mentioned cos I answered his email!
[18:45] <natrium42> you're famous!
[18:45] <fnoble> joking joking, keep your hair on
[18:46] <edmoore> but anyway, hoping to keep internet interest going for sunrise
[18:47] <phatmonkey> oh i see
[18:47] <edmoore> webcams of launch, goog maps, embedded irc client and maybe a twitter box to announce new photos as they're uploaded. all on one page
[18:47] <phatmonkey> is this going to be tracking for a space launch/
[18:47] <phatmonkey> that might be quite high traffic
[18:47] <phatmonkey> hehe
[18:47] <edmoore> phatmonkey: this would be for sunrise attempt 2
[18:48] <edmoore> also webcam of something else
[18:48] <edmoore> if jcoxon's party piece turns out to be within the bounds of 10mW
[18:48] <jcoxon> ssshhh
[18:48] <edmoore> 8)
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[18:51] <natrium42> edmoore, for video streaming it's best to use one of those free live broadcasting sites
[18:52] <edmoore> do you know if any of them offer embedding?
[18:52] <natrium42> it's possible to install flash video server, but i doubt we could handle many streams
[18:52] <edmoore> sure, that makes sense
[18:52] <natrium42> many do it seems
[18:52] <natrium42> http://www.mogulus.com
[18:52] <edmoore> ok cool, that's nice and easy then
[18:52] <natrium42> http://www.stickam.com
[18:52] <phatmonkey> i have gob loads of bandwidth, we could try it
[18:52] <phatmonkey> depends on the bitrate i suppose
[18:52] <natrium42> http://www.ustream.tv
[18:52] <phatmonkey> it's not a gigabit link
[18:52] <natrium42> those do, there might be more
[18:53] <phatmonkey> but yeah, a service is probably a better idea
[18:53] <edmoore> ok brilliant, that doesn't look too bad
[18:53] <fnoble> could relay from cambridge, we have rediculous bandwidth there
[18:53] <edmoore> it's really so people can see what a launch loos like
[18:53] <edmoore> yeah, though finding a server
[18:53] <natrium42> phatmonkey, can you install stuff too?
[18:53] <natrium42> there is an open-source flash server: http://osflash.org/red5
[18:55] <phatmonkey> natrium42: yeah we can do whatever
[18:55] <phatmonkey> if i set up a server for you, you can do whatever really
[18:55] <phatmonkey> what sort of bitrate are we talking?
[18:57] <natrium42> we can cap bitrate&quality at whatever we like
[18:57] <natrium42> let's see what the usual bitrate is...
[18:58] <natrium42> hmm, maybe 128 or 256kbps
[18:59] <natrium42> or better more
[18:59] <natrium42> :)
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[19:00] <natrium42> i used red5 to stream video for my robot thingy
[19:01] <natrium42> but i limited it to only 1 stream, since it was running from my home connection
[19:02] <phatmonkey> safely, we're talking 200 streams at 256kbps
[19:02] <phatmonkey> could go higher
[19:02] <fnoble> bbiab
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[19:03] <natrium42> cool
[19:03] <natrium42> might be worth a shot
[19:03] <phatmonkey> if you can find an online streamer though, they'll probably be better at it!
[19:04] <natrium42> yah, perhaps
[19:05] <edmoore_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cIOr-XQ3cw&feature=related
[19:05] <natrium42> but it's good to be in complete control
[19:05] <edmoore_> so you'd let a balloon go, and it'd get sucked right in to that
[19:05] <natrium42> The Stormchasers - Edmoore edition
[19:06] <icez> that's freaky looking
[19:06] <edmoore_> definitely want to do this
[19:06] <icez> never heard of tornadoes in the UK though, do they happen?
[19:06] <akawaka> you see that kind of weather in cambridge all the time i'm sure
[19:06] <natrium42> XD
[19:07] <jcoxon> icez, they do
[19:07] <jcoxon> quite often
[19:07] <jcoxon> but they don't do too much damage
[19:07] <icez> well that's good if you wanna recover your payload :p
[19:08] <edmoore_> i just want a storm
[19:08] <edmoore_> doesn't need to be a big showoff one
[19:08] <edmoore_> we'd need a hangar to inflate in
[19:09] <edmoore_> can't pretend i'd want to inflate a 1.2 in the middle of a gale
[19:09] <icez> another thing that might be nice is to launch during auroras :p
[19:09] <edmoore_> oh wow, yeah
[19:10] <akawaka> or with a stabilized telescope
[19:10] <akawaka> lets get cracking people!
[19:12] <natrium42> :P
[19:12] <icez> lol, I saw a video on MIT opencoursework and this physics teacher worked on a balloon-powered x-ray telescope, the balloon was about 500 meters wide at its peak and 80 feets high on the ground :/
[19:12] <natrium42> has anybody launched a stabilized camera yet?
[19:12] <natrium42> (here in the channel, that is)
[19:13] <SpeedEvil> Adds lots of weight.
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> I had a prototype cam to do that, but it never got fully built out.
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> Probably easier to just wiggle a mirror.
[19:14] <edmoore_> natrium42: when we get the inertial measurment unit done, we'll test it by doing some stabilised camera platofrm stuff
[19:14] <natrium42> that won't work if the payload is spinning, SpeedEvil
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> You can get cheap front-surface mirrors on ebay.
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: no, it won't.
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: well - it will - sort-of.
[19:15] <natrium42> need a counter weight...
[19:15] <edmoore_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCnsI_BeX5g&feature=related
[19:15] <edmoore_> natrium42: for yaw I want to put on a mometum wheel
[19:16] <SpeedEvil> And leave the balloon free to spin?
[19:16] <natrium42> right
[19:16] <edmoore_> yes
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[19:16] Nick change: edmoore_ -> edmoore
[19:16] <edmoore> as that might be quite useful for photography
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> I don't see the great problem with just taking pics as you rotate past a target.
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> Unless you require it to be able to stare at something.
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> Or need long exposures.
[19:18] <SpeedEvil> Has anyone done any processing on the nova6/7 logs to pick out swings?
[19:18] <SpeedEvil> As the momentum wheel and a swinging platform might be fun.
[19:19] <natrium42> my halo1 flight shows swings --> http://natrium42.com/balloon/Log@Balloon.kmz
[19:19] <natrium42> but unfortunately there was no gyro to check what the spin rates were
[19:20] <fnoble> SpeedEvil, have a look at some of the vids from early novas
[19:21] <fnoble> they are linked from the bottom of the about page on our website for some unknown reason
[19:21] <fnoble> none of them came out that well but show the amount of swing ok
[19:21] <fnoble> its usually fairly gentle once out of the jetstream
[19:23] <edmoore> don't need a gyro - fnoble and I on sunday though of just putting an ldr on one side and plotting that against time
[19:23] <edmoore> should probably make out rotation thanks to the sun
[19:23] <fnoble> but we hope to put 3 axis gyro on v1.2 anyway
[19:24] <fnoble> :)
[19:24] <natrium42> edmoore, that doesn't show rotation reversals, though :P
[19:25] <edmoore> quite correct
[19:25] Action: edmoore humbley drifts back into the shadow
[19:29] <fnoble> ok, im off, see you all later
[19:31] <natrium42> later
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: did you log all NMEA?
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: actually - that wouldn't help - unless GPGSVs were rapidly updated, and your antenna was rotationally assymetric.
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> fnoble: oh - hadn't thought of the obvious.
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> Period?
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> I suppose the effect on swing of the momentum wheel would be to damp it out and for the swing to go into a tipping motion of the wheel.
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> a horizontal momentum wheel.
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> There are really easy compass modules that have a 0-360 output
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> as 0-5V
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> But they aren't very cheap.
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12892
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> What's 10oz
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> oh - 300g - that's a bit too heavy.
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> wv
[19:34] <natrium42> SpeedEvil, yeah, all of NMEA --> http://natrium42.com/balloon/gps.log
[19:35] <natrium42> i used a helix GPS antenna, btw
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: on reflection that'd only work for extracting orientation if you had poor GPS antenna siting.
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> So that it was rotationally assymetric.
[19:36] <edmoore> a momentum wheel might actually be a decent way of stabilising Badger Storm (tm)
[19:36] <edmoore> two counter rotating ones, anyway
[19:36] <edmoore> not that stabilising is really at all necessary
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> luk: any fine wire will work. But not stranded.
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> oops
[20:05] <jiffe98> does the technicians fcc exam still require morse?
[20:05] <jiffe98> nm, I found it
[20:11] <soneil> curious & lazy, what's the answer?
[20:12] <jcoxon> oh soneil
[20:12] <jcoxon> EI5GTB, was looking for you
[20:12] <jcoxon> he's based in Ireland and keen for a balloon launch
[20:12] <soneil> yeah I spotted that, but didn't get an answer. I'm awake now tho :)
[20:14] <akawaka> jiffe98: no morse
[20:14] <akawaka> not for extra either
[20:14] <soneil> last time I looked morse was a requirement for HF still .. has that been dropped ?
[20:15] <akawaka> soneil: yeah, i got my extra license a few months back
[20:16] robert1971 (n=rharriso@ joined #highaltitude.
[20:25] <robert1971> Is there any way to tell who is currently online?
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[20:28] <natrium42> robert1971, there should be a list on the right if you are using xchat
[20:28] <natrium42> if there isn't, you can go to View -> User List
[20:35] <robert1971> Yep there is. I thought that was all the registered users not the live one. Oh BTW high natrium42 thanks for pointing me this way. I have come quite along way since we last talked on your website. Thanks for all the pointers and I have managed to mod my Ixus 400 camera for GPIO control (see guide on wiki) Thanks again!!
[20:37] <natrium42> sure thing
[20:38] <natrium42> your hardware looks great!
[20:38] <natrium42> i am looking forward to the launch
[20:38] <robert1971> Cheers I used the same host as you for the video. Makes a change from utube.
[20:39] <natrium42> the nice thing is that they support high def
[20:39] <natrium42> though i hear that youtube does too, now
[20:40] <SpeedEvil> Though youtube have recently started doing audio compression :(
[20:41] <natrium42> it was uncompressed before?
[20:41] <SpeedEvil> Err.
[20:41] <robert1971> Humm... May have to have a look at that at some point.
[20:41] <SpeedEvil> Audio compression. - equalising levels - not bitrate
[20:42] <natrium42> oh, so they recompress
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[20:45] <SpeedEvil> Yes.
[20:46] <edmoore> clever hack though - put a loud 19khz wine over the whole video. that swamps the primary signal but it gets compressed out by the servers, but leaves the dynamic range of the main audio in tact
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
[20:47] <natrium42> still lost quality because of the recompression
[20:55] <robert1971> natrium42: I'm not sure how good you are with the Atmega32 chip but would you happen to know if making a GPIO high will produce a 5V current with respect to ground? I'm using an opto-isolator to switch the buttons on the camera. It rather like a solidstate relay.
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: yes
[20:56] <robert1971> Nice one SpeedEvil
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: you need to read the atasheet to see what the maximum current you can draw from it safely.
[20:58] <natrium42> robert1971, optocouplers usually invert the signal too
[20:58] <robert1971> It talks about needing 60mA at 1.5v
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: that depends on where you connect them though.
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: the optocoupler?
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: that's probably maximum - they will generally work with lower, with lower outputs.
[20:59] <robert1971> Yep optocoupler
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: what's the optocoupler model?
[20:59] <robert1971> ilq74
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[21:00] <natrium42> robert1971, 40mA per pin for atmega32
[21:00] <robert1971> http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/71894.pdf
[21:00] <natrium42> robert1971, so you can just use two pins instead of one to drive 80mA
[21:01] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: that's 60mA max
[21:01] <natrium42> oh right, optocouplers don't need that much power :)
[21:01] <robert1971> Cunning I hadn't thought of that. Just connect two pins and set them both high!
[21:02] Action: natrium42 drives relays that way (e.g. 3-4 pins to drive a relay coil)
[21:02] <akawaka> whee
[21:02] <akawaka> 5.8 earthquake
[21:02] <edmoore> akawaka: can you feel it?
[21:02] <akawaka> went on for about 15 seconds, big waves
[21:02] <akawaka> never felt that before
[21:02] <robert1971> The 60mA is the Forward continuous current
[21:03] <akawaka> yeah, i was fun
[21:03] <robert1971> Wow where on earth are you akawaka
[21:03] <akawaka> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsus/Maps/US2/33.35.-119.-117.php
[21:03] <akawaka> los angeles
[21:03] Action: natrium42 runs off
[21:05] <robert1971> Those earthquake sites get updated real quick. I used the US site to check out a quake we had here in the UK last year
[21:05] <edmoore> was it really last year?
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[21:10] <robert1971> Feb 27th 2008... Seems ages ago
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[21:12] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[21:12] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: did you figure out the optoisolator thing?
[21:13] <robert1971> That link was to the data sheet for the optocoupler http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/71894.pdf
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: yes - I know - I was asking what the far end is connected to.
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> The transistor of the optoisolator.
[21:14] <robert1971> Oh the camera shutter circuit and the power circuit
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> robert1971: so what current does it need to activate that?
[21:15] <robert1971> The current is there allready I guess it is milliamps. I should measure it I guess. Hold on a sec
[21:17] <robert1971> I don't know how to use my multi meter but it says 0.38 on the 20mA setting
[21:18] <robert1971> is that 0.0038 Amps?
[21:18] <SpeedEvil> 0.38mA
[21:18] <SpeedEvil> no - 0.00038
[21:19] <SpeedEvil> Ok - in that case, a 250 ohm resistor from the atmega32 will run teh LED at about 10mA
[21:19] <robert1971> The measurement for the shutter circuit and the mode circuit is so low I can't detect it using a setting of 2000u
[21:19] <SpeedEvil> err - I mean 400.
[21:20] <SpeedEvil> 330 to 470 ohms will be just fine.
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> When the transistor is 'on' due to teh 10mA flowing through the LED, it will have under half a volt between the emitter and collector.
[21:22] <robert1971> The voltage for the power circuit is 3.5v and the shutter and mode circuits is 0.1v
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> As a quick test, if you can get the behaviour you want by adding a 250 ohm resistor in the circuit, it'll almost certainly work.
[21:24] <SpeedEvil> (in place of where the transistor emitter and collector will go)
[21:24] <robert1971> Thanks for that I fried the first chip doing trial and error electronics. I found by placing an led in series with the output from the ATmega32 the optocoupler worked, though the LED was a little warm.
[21:25] <robert1971> Ah I see what your saying I can do away with the optocouple and connect direct with the resister in place
[21:26] <robert1971> The electronics on this have been a bit of a steep learning curve
[21:26] <SpeedEvil> No.
[21:26] <SpeedEvil> I don't know that.
[21:26] <robert1971> I can program in C a bit but when it comes to electronics I'm out of my depth
[21:26] <SpeedEvil> I'm saying that as a test, without bothering with hooking up the ATM32 - you can just use the 250 ohm resistor to simulate an 'on' optocoupler.
[21:27] <robert1971> Ok cool
[21:27] <robert1971> I get you know
[21:27] <robert1971> now even
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> (and the absence for the 'off)
[21:29] <robert1971> I have the optocouple in place and working. Not sure if I'm operating it with in the recommended volt ranges but I'm going to do some V=IR on it tonight and tomorrow to make sure I dump the correct voltage over it.
[21:30] <robert1971> BTW does anybody know how to set a passwd on the wiki I'm still using the one it sent me out
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[21:34] <EI5GTB> someone called
[21:34] <EI5GTB> jcoxon,
[21:39] natrium42 (n=alexei@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[21:50] <edmoore> soneil: ping on behalf of EI5GTB
[21:54] <soneil> howdy
[21:55] <edmoore> EI5GTB: now now now
[21:56] <soneil> lol
[21:56] <soneil> ships in the night
[21:56] <edmoore> totally!
[22:08] <robert1971> yawn
[22:08] Action: robert1971 yawns
[22:08] <robert1971> hehe ;-)
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[22:29] <RocketBoyv1> Humm - talk of contra-rotating gyros - I tried that the other day
[22:29] <RocketBoyv1> bleive it or not they cancelled each other out
[22:30] <jcoxon> evening all
[22:30] <RocketBoyv1> yo
[22:31] <jcoxon> RocketBoyv1, i'm soooooo close to getting it working :-)
[22:31] <RocketBoyv1> sounds good - it will be amazing
[22:31] <jcoxon> keeping is hush hush till it works
[22:32] <RocketBoyv1> yeah
[22:32] <jcoxon> would have told you over pm but for some reason your irc client doesn't do pm
[22:34] <RocketBoyv1> yeah - just trying a DCC 2 u now
[22:35] <jcoxon> i've accepted it
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> RocketBoyv1: the gyros cancel each other out - but they do not cancel out common-mode accellerations in the gyros.
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> accellerate one, decellerate the other, and you get a net angular momentum out.
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[22:41] <RocketBoyV2> ha - xchat me
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[22:42] RocketBoyV2 (n=Steve@ left irc: Client Quit
[22:43] RocketBoyV1 (n=Steve@ joined #highaltitude.
[22:45] <RocketBoyV1> try a pm now
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[22:45] <Agroind> hi
[22:45] <jcoxon> hi Agroind
[22:46] <Agroind> do you speack spanish?
[22:46] <jcoxon> sorry
[22:46] <Agroind> ok
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[23:09] <EI5GTB> edmoore, soneil, sorry, was on the radio
[23:09] <EI5GTB> hello now
[23:09] <soneil> hey!
[23:10] <EI5GTB> finally, we meet :P;
[23:10] <EI5GTB> what part of EI are yo in?
[23:10] <soneil> galway
[23:11] <EI5GTB> aha, fairly close then, im in donegal, jcoxon tells me your interested in ballooning
[23:11] <EI5GTB> iv been looking for people interested in it for a whil!
[23:12] <soneil> yeah, been looking for a while, but they've finally persuaded me to take it seriously
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[23:13] <EI5GTB> well, have you been talking to IAA on the subject?
[23:14] <EI5GTB> i tried the IAA for regulations, but never recieved a reply
[23:15] <soneil> nothing at all yet
[23:15] <edmoore> early night time. see you all.
[23:15] <soneil> I have a stack of stuff for the CAA, but nothing for ireland
[23:15] <EI5GTB> i see, well, if your planning a launch, count me in, im into the radio end of things and all that
[23:16] <SpeedEvil> Err. On the subject of launching things.
[23:16] <SpeedEvil> Back in the day when I was looking into this, I found a 6000 pound fee to apply for a launch permit.
[23:16] <SpeedEvil> A satellite launch permit.
[23:16] <EI5GTB> haha
[23:16] <EI5GTB> lets all build sattelites
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> Wouldn't that cause the n-prize problems?
[23:17] <edmoore> £6000 to launch a sattelite?
[23:17] <edmoore> probably
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: no - that's the application fee.
[23:17] <edmoore> will find a way around it
[23:17] <edmoore> I don't think the n-prize will involve doing things in normal ways
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: it'll presumably be more than that. And you can't work around it as I read the legislation and still be a uk citezen.
[23:18] <edmoore> legislation can be changed.
[23:18] <SpeedEvil> There are all sorts of powers involving being able to bash their way into your control room and stuff.
[23:18] <EI5GTB> when you say sattelite, you mean...orbiting?
[23:18] <SpeedEvil> EI5GTB: yes
[23:18] <EI5GTB> ah
[23:18] <EI5GTB> you plannin onwe?
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/27/1952255&from=rss see
[23:19] <edmoore> it seems I've aquired a spokesperson. In which case i am off to bed.
[23:19] <edmoore> silly o'clock start tomorrow - night all
[23:19] <natrium42> nooo
[23:19] <edmoore> ?
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> Night.
[23:19] <natrium42> fine, go if you must
[23:19] <natrium42> nite
[23:20] <edmoore> speak now natrium...
[23:20] <SpeedEvil> (I'm not a member of the above team) Just interested in the nuttiness.
[23:21] <edmoore> but we'll cross that bridge...
[23:21] edmoore (n=edmoore@66.122-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) left irc:
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bnsc.gov.uk%2Fassets%2Fchannels%2Fabout%2Fouter%2520space%2520act%25201986.pdf&ei=AZiPSODoHpL-QdaH2KgK&usg=AFQjCNHx8ycyqCDj0IEU5fm-pUUalK4vyA&sig2=Lh9FOcuBvyG_4tVUeiwLYQ
[23:22] <EI5GTB> it would be pretty cool to launch a sattelite....even if it only orbitied 3 times....would be neat
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> ah
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> www.bnsc.gov.uk/assets/channels/about/outer%20space%20act%201986.pdf
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891306_en_1.htm
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> last time I looked these were not online and I couldn't find dead tree.
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> It seems you can get round the feed by being a school.
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> fees
[23:24] <soneil> that's fascinating for all the wrong reasons. The idea that the UK can enforce their law without their boundaries just because you're a citizen is rather worrying
[23:24] <EI5GTB> thank god im irish :P
[23:24] <soneil> I'm not, I just live here :/
[23:24] Action: EI5GTB dared to look at our rules on the subject
[23:24] <EI5GTB> s/dared/dares
[23:25] <SpeedEvil> You do need a license - if you are a UK citezen in control of the launch - looks like. Wherever you are.
[23:27] <SpeedEvil> Funky. If I'm reading this right, if you're in a foreign land, this gives them the right to call in anyone they like to get you to stop it.
[23:28] <EI5GTB> heh
[23:28] <soneil> that's just disturbing :/
[23:28] <EI5GTB> i wonder what irish legaities are...
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[23:32] Action: Laurenceb collapses over his desk
[23:32] Action: EI5GTB does cpr
[23:32] <Laurenceb> :-D
[23:34] <akawaka> EI5GTB: where you from?
[23:34] <EI5GTB> ireland
[23:34] <Laurenceb> lots of new people on here
[23:34] <akawaka> EI5GTB: what part?
[23:35] <EI5GTB> n/w donegal town
[23:35] <akawaka> i'm from galway originally
[23:35] <EI5GTB> cool
[23:35] <EI5GTB> where ya livin now?
[23:35] <akawaka> los angeles
[23:37] <EI5GTB> far cry from galway :P
[23:37] <akawaka> yeah
[23:37] <akawaka> less sheep
[23:37] <akawaka> few other differences too
[23:38] <EI5GTB> haha
[23:38] <EI5GTB> any sheep?
[23:39] <akawaka> maybe in the zoo
[23:39] <SpeedEvil> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1998/19982032.htm - 1998 - says 6500 pounds (but again not to educational institutions.
[23:39] <soneil> everything I find for ireland excepts balloons, but I don't find anything at all that does govern balloons.
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> Is there an irish CAA/FAA?
[23:40] <soneil> yup .. the IAA, predictably enough
[23:41] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[23:41] <akawaka> i have a hard time imagining getting into any kind of trouble
[23:41] <SpeedEvil> akawaka: yes, and I'm sure that as you're dragged away that'll make you real happy :)
[23:42] <SpeedEvil> OTOH - as far as I can see it - the OSA simply makes you liable to an unlimited fine.
[23:42] <akawaka> garda would likely just mock you for wasting money of a balloon
[23:44] <EI5GTB> haha
[23:44] <EI5GTB> the garsda would just....eat more take aways
[23:44] <EI5GTB> and curse over the radio about this thing
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[23:45] <Laurenceb> does my soldering look ok on this? http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:imgp0103.jpg
[23:45] <akawaka> just make sure your tax and registration is up to date
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[23:45] <EI5GTB> well, im 17, so....actually i could be driving
[23:45] <EI5GTB> nevermind
[23:45] <SpeedEvil> Ah - 2004 change to the law - now _everyone_ involved in the launch needs to be protected by a license.
[23:46] <EI5GTB> in ireland?
[23:46] <SpeedEvil> e: no - I'm talking about UK
[23:46] <EI5GTB> ah
[23:46] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: odd - I get a BT error page.
[23:46] <EI5GTB> i could never finfd anything govorning balloons in ireland
[23:46] <akawaka> Laurenceb: address not found
[23:46] <EI5GTB> and noone would ever tell me..
[23:47] <EI5GTB> There are regulations concerning release of un-manned free balloons. The officer in the IAA with responsibility for this area is Mr. Tony Harkin, who is in our Shannon office (Tel. 061-470028, E-mail above). I have forwarded your Email for his attention.
[23:47] <EI5GTB> thats the last i heard
[23:47] <fnoble> EI5GTB, in my experience i have found if there is no obvious legislation its best not to enquire too deeply
[23:47] <EI5GTB> y
[23:47] <EI5GTB> ?
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> Have you tried phoning him?
[23:47] <akawaka> hah
[23:47] <fnoble> otherwise people will tell you you need to do x y and z when you dont really
[23:48] <fnoble> #just to cover their back
[23:48] <akawaka> fnoble: has the right idea
[23:48] <EI5GTB> should i try ringing him?
[23:48] <akawaka> better to ask forgiveness than ask permission
[23:48] <fnoble> like we were told we needed insurance
[23:48] <Laurenceb> odd, works for me
[23:48] <fnoble> cost us £3000
[23:48] <EI5GTB> :O
[23:48] <fnoble> but its not a legal requiremen
[23:48] <Laurenceb> that was from the university?
[23:48] <fnoble> we were just told we needed it because some guy didnt really know so he thought he would play it safe
[23:49] <fnoble> in case he got sued for telling us its ok
[23:49] <Laurenceb> i.e. the university required you to have it?
[23:49] <natrium42> Laurenceb, you should use more flux when soldering
[23:49] <fnoble> the university didnt require we have it until we asked them if we need it
[23:49] <Laurenceb> ah I see
[23:49] <Laurenceb> natrium42: I used a flux pen
[23:49] <akawaka> natrium42: why do you say that?
[23:50] <EI5GTB> generally there is flux in the solder..
[23:50] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: got an IP for that address?
[23:50] <fnoble> Laurenceb, on the xtal maybe get rid of the blob of solder joining the top of the can to one of the pins
[23:50] <fnoble> should be ok, but you never know
[23:50] <soneil> as far as ireland goes, I'd be tempted to make a best-effort to adhere to "rockets and small aircraft" order 2000, as it sounds sane. and not provoke authorities any further
[23:50] <EI5GTB> what is it?
[23:50] <EI5GTB> you think?
[23:51] <EI5GTB> might be worth a try
[23:51] <Laurenceb> fnobel: sure, I was rather annoyed by that
[23:51] <EI5GTB> but you would still need to notify someone when launching?
[23:51] <natrium42> EI5GTB, for SMT soldering, you shoul dapply flux separately
[23:51] <Laurenceb> but it doesnt make contact with the pad, its just some solder stuck on the top
[23:51] <fnoble> EI5GTB, you should talk to air traffic control
[23:51] <fnoble> they are usually friendly and down to earth
[23:51] <fnoble> you may need to file a NOTAM
[23:51] <fnoble> a "notice to airmen"
[23:52] <natrium42> do they even read those?
[23:52] <natrium42> :P
[23:52] <fnoble> lots of people dont, but then at least its their fault
[23:52] <soneil> they're meant to. they tell you silly little things like "avoid (given) area for air show" and such
[23:52] <EI5GTB> i see
[23:52] <Laurenceb> bbl
[23:52] <EI5GTB> well, i know a few people in atc, so thats not a problem
[23:53] <fnoble> a NOTAM lets pilots know you may be launching in the area
[23:53] <EI5GTB> do you need to maintain any kind of communication to atc via radio?
[23:53] <fnoble> we have a notam and phone atc 24hrs and 5mins before launch
[23:53] <fnoble> nope, we just phone them
[23:53] <EI5GTB> ah, i se
[23:54] <EI5GTB> cos i only have a marine radio licence
[23:54] <EI5GTB> no air one
[23:54] <fnoble> thats ok i have no licenece :)
[23:54] <fnoble> EI5GTB, i think the notam is usually the only bit of paperwork you need
[23:55] <fnoble> although ireland may be different
[23:55] <fnoble> but this is not a common hobby, its not usually got much specific legislation
[23:55] <EI5GTB> yea
[23:56] <soneil> EI5GTB, curious .. do you drive ?
[23:56] <EI5GTB> not yet
[23:56] <EI5GTB> in a few months i will
[23:56] <soneil> a bit more of a practical worry, I don't either, and we're going to need someone that does :)
[23:57] <EI5GTB> haha
[23:57] <EI5GTB> are you in the driving age|?
[23:57] <soneil> yeah, I just haven't lived here long enough to bother with it yet
[23:57] <EI5GTB> ah,i see
[23:57] <soneil> (it sounds like I've got about 10 years on you)
[23:58] <EI5GTB> 27/
[23:58] <EI5GTB> ?
[23:58] <soneil> yeah
[23:59] <jnd> hey, any news about new flights?
[23:59] <EI5GTB> soneil, we'll get one launched yet :P
[23:59] <EI5GTB> what you work at/
[00:00] --- Wed Jul 30 2008