highaltitude.log.20080728

[00:00] <Laurenceb> do they have a UK site/do UK deliveries?
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> free delivery worldwide.
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> Even if you order only a resistor.
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> Though I don't think they sell resistors. 50W LEDs yes, resistors no.
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> The category electronics -> DIY parts is interesting.
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> As is flashlights ->DIY
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> and electronics -> professional tools
[00:02] <Laurenceb> free worldwide delivery ?! insane
[00:03] <Laurenceb> lol "guns and lasers"
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> Oooh!
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> A sideways pointing 100mW green laser would be awesome.
[00:04] Action: Laurenceb looks for pirates and ningers section
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> But probably rather illegal.
[00:04] <Laurenceb> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.10096
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if that'd be at all visible from the ground at night at high alts.
[00:06] <Laurenceb> hehe I have a load of those blue pots from farnell
[00:06] <SpeedEvil> Hang one of http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1336 in front of the camera.
[00:07] <Laurenceb> lmao
[00:10] <Laurenceb> that would be rather heath robinson
[00:10] <SpeedEvil> Also prolly freeze.
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> On servos freezing. You could always jitter it, and wrap it in a little foam. So the motor goes continuously.
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> Ok - 0.9nW/m^2 is visible - 4th magnitude star. To get to 0th magnitude, you need .1uW/m^2. At 100mW, that's 1Km*1Km
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> So a 3 degree beam would be visible from the ground quite easily at 30Km
[00:16] <Laurenceb> yes, I use jittering during the ascent, but I'm still a little worried
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> Is it in the airflow?
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> Oh - these are really handy for 'stuff'.
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.3461
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> I've used them for magnetic connectors on batteries.
[00:19] <SpeedEvil> Solder (quickly!) to one edge, and they work well.
[00:19] <SpeedEvil> Also good for quick break attaches.
[00:28] <jcoxon> uhoh
[00:28] <jcoxon> CUSF made /.
[00:28] <SpeedEvil> Fame!
[00:28] <SpeedEvil> Fortune!
[00:28] <jcoxon> and Ed is mentioned
[00:28] <SpeedEvil> Ill-educated piles of idiots!
[00:29] <natrium42> ooh, awesome!
[00:30] <SpeedEvil> GEt the server logs for your next gas visit :)
[00:32] <jcoxon> i'm never sure if /. is a good thing!
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[00:35] Action: jcoxon is having a fight with qmake, uic and OE
[00:39] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: I'm just thinking about the Rogallo flight last year
[00:39] <SpeedEvil> ah. You lost a servo then diddn't you.
[00:40] <Laurenceb> ah wow right up on ./
[00:40] <Laurenceb> well there were 3 issues
[00:40] <Laurenceb> 1 - power supply kept failing
[00:40] <Laurenceb> 2 - optocouplers were a bit on the blink in testing
[00:41] <Laurenceb> 3 - it appeared to be in a gently spiral during the descent
[00:41] <SpeedEvil> Is the atmosphere transparent to 433MHz?
[00:41] <SpeedEvil> through the top I mean.
[00:43] <SpeedEvil> I'm commenting on the guy addressing cost per pound, and how irrelevant it is.
[00:43] <SpeedEvil> and stating how
[00:44] <jcoxon> don't fall into the commenting on /.
[00:44] <jcoxon> it'll suck you in
[00:44] <jcoxon> and you'll be forced to ask if it'll run linux
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> Will it?
[00:45] <jcoxon> of course
[00:45] <jcoxon> that and NetBSD
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> Hurd?
[00:46] <jcoxon> i think they are working on it
[00:53] <Laurenceb> was afk for a minute
[00:53] Action: SpeedEvil stabs slashdot in the face.
[00:53] <Laurenceb> so, I'm thinking the spiral may have been due to the servo sticking
[00:53] <SpeedEvil> I had a nice reasoned comment, and it ate it.
[00:53] <Laurenceb> not a consiquence of the other issues
[00:56] <Laurenceb> anyway I'm off
[00:56] <Laurenceb> cya all
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[00:56] <SpeedEvil> Wave.
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[00:57] <jcoxon> right i better be off
[00:58] <jcoxon> night all
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[01:07] <SpeedEvil> http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=627447&cid=24362383
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> yay
[01:07] Action: SpeedEvil is famous. For 15 minutes, or till it scrolls.
[01:46] Action: SpeedEvil wonders what orbit would be best for landing somewhere GSM works.
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[05:49] <jiffe88> what's typically used for a receiver in the 2 meter band?
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[07:57] <icez> howdy jcoxon
[07:58] <gordonjcp> jiffe88: scanner, old 2m rig, homebrew super-regen
[07:59] <jcoxon> good morning
[08:00] <gordonjcp> morning
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[08:48] <Laurenceb> meow
[08:53] <gordonjcp> bagpuss_thecat: morning
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[09:03] <Laurenceb> hi edmoore
[09:04] <edmoore> hi Laurenceb
[09:04] <Laurenceb> congrats on the /. article
[09:04] <Laurenceb> obviously your promotional work is paying off
[09:06] <Laurenceb> fame and riches await :D
[09:07] <edmoore> Laurenceb: hi, if only. Lots of engineering to do.
[09:07] <edmoore> ha*
[09:08] <edmoore> need these sunrise piccies for one. It's become a bit of an 'I will not rest' thing
[09:20] <Laurenceb> IMO the contract will be very high
[09:20] <Laurenceb> cheap cameras might not cope, and maybe CCD would be better than CMOS?
[09:21] <edmoore> contract?
[09:22] <edmoore> oh contrast
[09:22] <edmoore> yes
[09:22] <edmoore> we will be getting something with a much higher dynamic range capability
[09:22] <edmoore> it'll be a good camera, i hope
[09:23] <Laurenceb> woops typo
[09:23] <Laurenceb> oh well time to get to work, cya
[09:23] <edmoore> ok, cya
[09:23] <edmoore> morning jcoxon
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[09:36] <bagpuss_thecat> gordonjcp: morning
[09:36] <bagpuss_thecat> and indeed, morning all
[09:37] <gordonjcp> bagpuss_thecat: are you on #osm at the moment?
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[09:40] <bagpuss_thecat> gordonjcp: aye
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[11:26] <edmoore> hi fnoble
[11:26] <fnoble> hi edmoore
[11:26] <fnoble> whats new?
[11:26] <edmoore> will be sporadic chat as I'm having a hardcore report day
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[11:26] <edmoore> well, we're on /.
[11:26] <edmoore> which is nice
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[11:27] <fnoble> oh dear, srcf people wont be happy
[11:27] <edmoore> it's linked to space fellowship, so they'll take most of the brunt
[11:28] <fnoble> ok cool
[11:29] <edmoore> But we could do with some site work. I guess truck is the next thing. and 1.2. how was yesterday and your trip home?
[11:36] <fnoble> not home yet
[11:36] <fnoble> still in bath
[11:36] <edmoore> is it nice in bath?
[11:36] <fnoble> yeah its lovely, its a really nice city
[11:37] <fnoble> a lot like cambridge only more trees and things
[11:38] <fnoble> yeah I should get to work on 1.2
[11:38] <edmoore> if you want to have a vnc session, i'd be very up for it
[11:39] <edmoore> and can get an svn set up on googlecode
[11:39] <fnoble> ok, when i get home
[11:39] <fnoble> yeah, we should publicise our svn server more
[11:39] <edmoore> should we?
[11:39] <fnoble> well, if people are interested...
[11:40] <edmoore> oh for sure. just maybe when we get onto active guidance...
[11:40] <fnoble> i mean we should mention it on our website at least
[11:40] <edmoore> on rockets
[11:40] <fnoble> yeah, there isnt really anything much of interest in there atm
[11:40] <fnoble> but it does have the design for the flight computer which some people might want to see
[11:41] <edmoore> anyhoo, we have badgerworks
[11:41] <fnoble> yeah, indeed
[11:42] <fnoble> so im supposed to be trying to squeese on 3 axis of accn and gyro and a pressure transducer? :)
[11:42] <fnoble> should be fun
[11:42] <edmoore> depends if we decide to go ahead with it
[11:42] <edmoore> we have accn
[11:42] <edmoore> not sure 3 axis of gyro is strictly necessary, unless we're drifting back to what we drifted away from
[11:42] <fnoble> maybe we put on the gyro but just use the crappy adc built into the arm to read it
[11:42] <edmoore> in terms of feature set for 1.2
[11:43] <fnoble> yeah, this is true
[11:43] <fnoble> but just hanging more peripherals off the spi bus is easier than other things
[11:45] <fnoble> but essentials are battery mgmt, working telit temp and accn and using uSD
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[12:20] <jcoxon> edmoore, back
[12:22] <edmoore> yo
[12:22] <edmoore> about to go out to lunch, soz
[12:22] <jcoxon> np
[12:50] <edmoore> jcoxon: am still around
[12:50] <edmoore> we're waiting on someone to come back before we go out
[12:51] <jcoxon> hehe
[12:51] <jcoxon> i'm still here
[13:04] <edmoore> cool
[13:04] <edmoore> I am excited about the future
[13:04] <jcoxon> you are? thats good
[13:05] <edmoore> are mission will be exciting
[13:05] <edmoore> our*
[13:05] <jcoxon> which missions?
[13:05] <edmoore> sunrise with webcams and shit
[13:06] <jcoxon> hehe
[13:06] <jcoxon> yeah
[13:06] <jcoxon> but its going to take a lot of work
[13:06] <edmoore> it's going to be a really cool hab mission. I feel it in my bones
[13:06] <edmoore> yes, well we are willing to put the hours in
[13:06] <jcoxon> well i think we need to sort out a plan
[13:06] <jcoxon> decide hardware etc
[13:06] <edmoore> can the plan wait till after pub? Shane is finally back and we're heading off
[13:06] <edmoore> but yes
[13:06] <jcoxon> haha
[13:06] <jcoxon> yes
[13:07] <jcoxon> i'm working from 2 so i'll be on later (around 5 i reckon)
[13:07] <edmoore> basically, ferg and I are going to build badger truck - a hardware platform for a payload, to complement the badger flight computer
[13:07] <edmoore> same philosophy - reliable, quality, set and forget
[13:07] <edmoore> nothing too whizz bang
[13:07] <jcoxon> can i do the whizz bang?
[13:07] <edmoore> I was getting there!
[13:07] <edmoore> webcams are totally whizz bang
[13:08] <edmoore> oh ps can you log webcam output to a mem card aswell? or take vids every now and then? just incase downlink fails to work, we can still get something
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[13:08] <jcoxon> usb memory stick do?
[13:08] <edmoore> and doug provides nice cameras for *that picture*
[13:08] <edmoore> jcoxon: of course
[13:08] <edmoore> whatever
[13:09] <jcoxon> then yeah
[13:09] <jcoxon> that said i'll need some help
[13:09] <edmoore> yu got it
[13:09] <jcoxon> will need some custom stuff done to access a spare usb port
[13:09] <jcoxon> go to lunch
[13:09] <jcoxon> i'll be back on later
[13:09] <edmoore> ok cool, I'll be around
[13:09] <edmoore> having a code-audit at some point so may be off for large periods
[13:10] <jcoxon> as i said i'll be working so i'll be back after work
[14:17] <edmoore> jcoxon: back
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[14:59] <jatkins> hi all
[15:00] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: CMOS isn't bad anymore.
[15:00] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: bad CMOS is bad, but the good stuff is quite good.
[15:00] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: good CMOS can now beat mediochre CCD forex.
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: you basically need to wander over to the astrophotography sites, and see what they're using to get real ideas of dark performances.
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: and some of the extended dynamic range sensors are much better than CCD, for many apps, as they have a log response.
[15:05] <edmoore> like the human eye
[15:05] <edmoore> we'll probably be using ccd as most decent consumer cameras are ccd, and we're using what we can use, not what we'd ideally design from scratch
[15:08] <jatkins> ..just reading the logs
[15:08] <jatkins> you guys reviving the sunrise attempt?
[15:08] <edmoore> jatkins: oh of course
[15:09] <jatkins> cool
[15:09] <edmoore> that was just a first attempt, we're definitelly continuing till we get te potos
[15:09] <jatkins> did I read it right that you're gonna broadcast?
[15:09] <jatkins> yeah
[15:09] <jatkins> ^^ live video
[15:09] <edmoore> we'll have mobile braodband in the chase car, and will have webcams and stuff of the launch and the chase
[15:10] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: that's not really very true any more.
[15:10] <edmoore> + jcoxon has a trick up his sleeve maybe
[15:10] <jatkins> ok
[15:10] <jatkins> yeah
[15:10] <SpeedEvil> http://www.licha.de/astro_photo_381.php forex. A stacked 600s image from a Canon EOS 10D
[15:10] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: do please link me, I'd be very interested in seeing what's available
[15:10] <SpeedEvil> (which is CMOS)
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> http://www.licha.de/astro_gallery_top.php
[15:11] <SpeedEvil> You can search by camera type.
[15:12] <jatkins> edmoore: I was thinking about the radio downlink
[15:12] <jatkins> and the legislation/restrictions
[15:12] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: I'm not sure we're in a position to thrown on a dslr, yet
[15:12] <edmoore> Not for the next flight anyway
[15:12] <jatkins> I was wondering whether it's unrestricted in uncontrolled airspace?
[15:13] <jatkins> i.e. if we can transmit what we like above say 20 km
[15:13] <edmoore> jatkins: put it this way - spirit of knoxeville can do whatever they want
[15:13] <jatkins> so whatever power (mW/W) we want and whatever frequnecy?
[15:13] <edmoore> because no one owns the atlantic
[15:13] <jatkins> yeah, lol
[15:13] <jatkins> is that because it's international waters
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: no - I'm just saying that while in the past you could say CCD=good, CMOS=bad, you can't anymore. Also - at lower price point absolutely all cameras will be CMOS. You simply can't get CCD small digital cameras.
[15:13] <jatkins> or is it because it's international airspace?
[15:14] <edmoore> jatkins: both really
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> 'because noone owns the atlantic' is ...
[15:14] <jatkins> ok
[15:14] <edmoore> belongs to no one nation, so you're not subject to the legislations of any one nation
[15:14] <jatkins> ok
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> The outer space act (IIRC) gives unfortunate control of the state over citezens.
[15:14] <edmoore> i'm not sure you could use 20km as the cutoff
[15:14] <jatkins> yeah
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> Even if you travel outside the UK.
[15:14] <jatkins> there is an altitude isn't there?
[15:14] <edmoore> they'd probably claim all airspace as being subject to the laws
[15:14] <jatkins> damn
[15:15] <edmoore> you could probably make your sattelite have whatever you want though
[15:15] <jatkins> I though
[15:15] <jatkins> t*
[15:15] <SpeedEvil> It's basically - AIUI - you are in principle if you launch things and are a UK subject, you're liable to the laws.
[15:15] <jatkins> I saw on kc0wys site
[15:15] <jatkins> that he said in the US
[15:15] <jatkins> above a certain altitude there's no law
[15:15] <jatkins> oh ok
[15:15] <jatkins> I was just thinking that we could put up a relay HAB
[15:16] <jatkins> and transmit from 30 km
[15:16] <jatkins> to the relay HAB at say 20
[15:16] <edmoore> jatkins: sadly not
[15:16] <jatkins> ok
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> LASERs!
[15:17] <jatkins> lol
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> Just some minor pointing issues to work out.
[15:17] <jatkins> hehe
[15:17] <jatkins> ouch if you miss!
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> I've considered a reteroreflector on a craft, and a modest ground-side laser for ground-thing comms.
[15:17] <jatkins> yeah
[15:18] <jatkins> well so long as it's modest
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> But pointing the return beam is hard.
[15:18] <jatkins> yeah
[15:18] <jatkins> if NASA can do it from the Moon with retroreflectors...
[15:18] <jatkins> :)
[15:18] <jatkins> the Apollo ones still work today
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> I considered modulated reteroreflectors, but I couldn't find a nice way of doing that.
[15:19] <jatkins> you couldn't actually do comms with a retroreflector though could you?
[15:19] <jatkins> it would just let you know that it was there?
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> Sure.
[15:19] <jatkins> cool
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> Put a pockels cell (IIRC) or something in front of it, and you can modulate the light.
[15:19] <jatkins> awesome
[15:19] <jatkins> it's IR with a slightly longer range
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> But I seem to recall there were major issues.
[15:19] <jatkins> *slightly*
[15:20] <jatkins> oh
[15:20] <jatkins> I guess if it did work you'd get huge baud rates?
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> 'Pockels cell, combined with a polarizer, can be used for a variety of applications. Switching between no optical rotation and 90° rotation creates a fast shutter capable of "opening" and "closing" in nanoseconds. The same technique can be used to impress information on the beam by modulating the rotation between 0° and 90°; the exiting beam's intensity, when viewed through the polarizer, contains an amplitude-modulated signal.'
[15:21] <jatkins> wow
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> Ah - right. Alignment of the crystal axis with the ray axis is critical.
[15:21] <jatkins> you have to rotate super quick
[15:22] <edmoore> probaby less difficult ways of doing it if you could content yourself with 9600bps
[15:22] <jatkins> yeah
[15:22] <jatkins> but I doubt you could do video on that?
[15:22] <jatkins> you'd need at least 1 mbps I reckon
[15:22] <jatkins> even with compression
[15:22] <jatkins> maybe a bit less
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acousto-optic_modulator looks potentially interesting if it could work at levels you could obtain through a window large enough for a reteroreflector.
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> Much less - if you don't need great quality video.
[15:23] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: so how is your UAV project going?
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: slowly.
[15:24] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: I'm hoping to get the CPU + sensor-reading board off to a board house sometime quite soon.
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: basically SD + 8M RAM + IO, in a teeny package.
[15:25] <edmoore> Cool - what's the CPU?
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> STM32
[15:26] <SpeedEvil> ARM variant.
[15:27] <jatkins> SpeedEvil: is this a normal HAB or a glider or something?
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: it's an INSANITY MACHINE!
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: well - almost.
[15:27] <jatkins> lol
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: better than half a horsepower of thrust in a 1Kg vehicle.
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: It's a thrust vectored helicopter optimised for fast vertical climb.
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> My very pessimistic numbers say 1Km altitude in 4 mins.
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> My 'realistic' ones seem to indicate 3 or 4.
[15:29] <edmoore> our balloons will do 1km in 4 mins :p
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> Yes. But they won't come back down and land on the takeoff spot automatically.
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> Only needing .01p of electricity to make them ready to go again.
[15:30] <edmoore> no, that is true
[15:30] <edmoore> I've been sizing up the STM32s recently
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: if only they had a MMU, and external SD interface.
[15:31] <edmoore> I'm not sure we'll move to them as it would be a lot of effort for effectively a side-step rather than a step forward
[15:31] <edmoore> But they are very very nice devices
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> Yes, the reason I'm using them as a CPU is not because I would have specifically chosen them for this project.
[15:32] <SpeedEvil> It's to develop a core board, that I can use in many projects, that is nice and cheap and versatile, so I can make lots and lots of profit when I sell it with minimal mods for other apps.
[15:32] <edmoore> so the theory goes :)
[15:32] <SpeedEvil> Yes. :/
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Gah. I shouldn't comment on /. I end up making way too long posts.
[15:39] <jatkins> SpeedEvil: what about a low power 'jet' engine.
[15:39] <jatkins> 'jet' because it wouldn't be a real jet engine
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: _hideous_ maintainance issues.
[15:39] <jatkins> just a turbine
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> Oh.
[15:40] <jatkins> well electric powered propeller/turbine
[15:40] <jatkins> if the payload's light enough
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> disk loading comes into it.
[15:40] <jatkins> you have that for rotary blades too don't you?
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> There is pretty much a straight tradeoff between exhaust velocity - and thrust per unit area.
[15:40] <jatkins> ok
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> I mean a linear relationship.
[15:41] <jatkins> ok
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> But, of course, there is that nasty v^2 term in kinetic energy.
[15:41] <jatkins> yeah
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> Which means that you really want to keep the exhaust velocity as low as you possibly can.
[15:41] <jatkins> as low?
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> I'm spinning a 6" prop _damn_ fast.
[15:41] <jatkins> lol
[15:42] <jatkins> let's say exhaust velocity is 10 m/s
[15:42] <jatkins> (0 m/s)^2
[15:42] <jatkins> 10*
[15:42] <jatkins> is much more than (5 m/s)^2
[15:42] <jatkins> (obviously)
[15:42] <jatkins> but the first has higher exhaust velocity?
[15:42] <SpeedEvil> That means your maximum flying speed is probably about half that.
[15:42] <jatkins> but isn't exhaust velocity really an acceleration?
[15:42] <jatkins> so 10 m/s^2
[15:43] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: don't be a /. commenter. It's one of those depressing things.
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: I NEED TO EDUCATE THEM. MAYBE I CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE!
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> (or maybe not)
[15:43] <jatkins> the website'll go down!!!
[15:43] <jatkins> :D
[15:43] <jatkins> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashdot_effect
[15:43] <edmoore> jatkins: it's not just an acceleration, annoyingly
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: Take a limiting example.
[15:43] <jatkins> oh
[15:43] <jatkins> ok
[15:43] <edmoore> jatkins: already called the guys who run the servers
[15:43] <jatkins> lol
[15:44] <edmoore> they're happy they can man up to it
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: you want your craft to go at say 20m/s.
[15:44] <jatkins> yeah
[15:44] <edmoore> they survived our previous slashdotting
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: you have an engine which pushes air out the back at 300m/s.
[15:44] <jatkins> :)
[15:44] <jatkins> SpeedEvil: ok
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: Compared to a solution that pushes air out the back at 60m/s - even if the same momentum /time (force) is imparted to the vehicle, the former uses enormously more energy.
[15:45] <jatkins> ok
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> This is why you don't see harriers doing airlifts.
[15:45] <jatkins> ok
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> They use several orders of magnitude more fuel hovering than an equivalent weight helicopter.
[15:46] <jatkins> ok
[15:46] <jatkins> thanks for explaining
[15:46] <jatkins> so if exhaust velocity's not an acceleration
[15:46] <jatkins> the water vapor coming out of the shuttle's main engines
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> It accellerates the incoming air.
[15:46] <jatkins> is actually coming out at 7.7 km/s?
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> But there is also drag.
[15:47] <jatkins> ok
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> But yes.
[15:47] <jatkins> "that's why it takes so much fuel to go to space" :D
[15:47] <jatkins> it would be nice is Ve was an acceleration
[15:47] Action: SpeedEvil stabs the shuttle as an example of anything.
[15:47] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[15:47] Action: SpeedEvil is depressed at shuttle.
[15:47] Action: jatkins Saturn V! Saturn V!
[15:48] <jatkins> just 2 more years :)
[15:48] <edmoore> V is not an acceleration
[15:48] <edmoore> V is the integral of acceleration
[15:48] <jatkins> oh
[15:48] <edmoore> acceleration is the derivative of V
[15:48] <jatkins> ok
[15:48] <jatkins> doesn't Ve = exhaust velocity?
[15:48] <edmoore> jatkins: if you can learn calculus, now, age 14, you will soon have al of engineering sorted
[15:48] <edmoore> Ve is exhaust velocity, yes
[15:48] <jatkins> ok
[15:49] <edmoore> but velocity and acceleration are linked by time
[15:49] <jatkins> ok
[15:49] <edmoore> if you divide velocity by time you get acceleration
[15:49] <jatkins> acceleration is just velocity squared?
[15:49] <jatkins> yeah
[15:49] <edmoore> if you multiply acceleration with time you get velocity
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> Stabbing as shuttles fuel costs a million dollars, but launch costs half a billion)
[15:49] <jatkins> lol
[15:50] <edmoore> jatkins: acceleration is velocity divided by time
[15:50] <jatkins> oh
[15:50] <edmoore> so velocity is m/s
[15:50] <jatkins> m/s^2 is
[15:50] <jatkins> acceleration
[15:50] <edmoore> which is meters divided by seconds
[15:50] <jatkins> but
[15:50] <jatkins> .. yeaj
[15:50] <jatkins> yeah*
[15:50] <edmoore> and if you divide that by a time, you get (m/s) divided by s
[15:50] <jatkins> yeah
[15:50] <jatkins> m
[15:50] <edmoore> which is m/(s*s)
[15:51] <jatkins> oh ok
[15:51] <edmoore> = m/s^2
[15:51] <jatkins> so it's not (m/s)^2
[15:51] <jatkins> ?
[15:51] <edmoore> no
[15:51] <jatkins> ok
[15:51] <edmoore> it's m/(s^2)
[15:51] <jatkins> ok
[15:51] <edmoore> and this makes perfect sense if you think of it like this
[15:52] <edmoore> lets say we are accelerating at 10 m/s^2
[15:52] <jatkins> ok
[15:52] <edmoore> if we start at rest, after 1s we'll be doing 10m/2
[15:52] <jatkins> yeah
[15:52] <edmoore> after 2s, we'll be doing 20m/s
[15:52] <jatkins> ok
[15:52] <edmoore> after 3s we'll be doing 30m/s
[15:52] <jatkins> yeah
[15:52] <edmoore> follow?
[15:52] <edmoore> cool
[15:52] <jatkins> yep
[15:52] <jatkins> but
[15:53] <jatkins> if it's been going for 3 seconds
[15:53] <jatkins> 3^2 isn't 30
[15:53] <jatkins> but it's
[15:53] <edmoore> no no, bare with me
[15:53] <jatkins> m/(s^2)
[15:53] <jatkins> ok
[15:53] <edmoore> you have an acceleration os 10m/(s^2)
[15:54] <jatkins> ok
[15:54] <edmoore> you hold that for 3s, which means you multiply it by 3s
[15:54] <jatkins> ok
[15:54] <jatkins> oh right
[15:54] <edmoore> so like if a tap is doing 1 litre/min and you leave it for 3 mins, you get 3litres
[15:54] <jatkins> 10m*3
[15:54] <jatkins> yeah
[15:55] <edmoore> so we can do the muliplication to both the numbers and the units
[15:55] <jatkins> oh
[15:55] <jatkins> ok
[15:55] <edmoore> 10m/(s^2) * 3s
[15:55] <edmoore> 10 * 3 = 30
[15:55] <jatkins> ok
[15:55] <jatkins> s*3 = 3s
[15:56] <jatkins> ?
[15:56] <edmoore> m/(s^2) * s = (one s on top, two below, the one on top cancels with one of the ones below, leaving you with) m/s
[15:56] <jatkins> ok
[15:56] <jatkins> so
[15:56] <jatkins> it's
[15:56] <edmoore> draw it out on some paper
[15:56] <jatkins> 30m/30s
[15:56] <jatkins> = 1m/s
[15:56] <edmoore> you do them seperately - the numbers seperately and the units seperately
[15:56] <jatkins> oh ok
[15:56] <edmoore> jatkins: you have it exactly
[15:56] <edmoore> it works both ways
[15:57] <jatkins> ok
[15:57] <jatkins> so with 2m/s^2
[15:57] <jatkins> for 5 seconds
[15:57] <jatkins> you get 10m/5s
[15:57] <jatkins> divide by 2
[15:57] <jatkins> =2m/1s = 2m/s
[15:57] <edmoore> not quite - 10m/s
[15:57] <edmoore> multiply the numbers: 2 * 5 = 10
[15:58] <jatkins> ok
[15:58] <edmoore> muliply the units: m/(s*s) * s. that they have to be on a line is confusing, i agree. it should be meters over seconds * seconds
[15:58] <jatkins> s*5=5s?
[15:58] <jatkins> oh right
[15:58] <jatkins> so it's m/s over 1 or just m/s
[15:58] <edmoore> uhuh, remember you don't multply numbers with units - numbers seperately, units seperately
[15:59] <jatkins> ok
[15:59] <edmoore> well, m/s is meters over seconds
[15:59] <jatkins> uhuh
[15:59] <jatkins> so it's 2ms/5s?
[15:59] <jatkins> not sorry
[15:59] <edmoore> it's confusing because we are limited by typing
[15:59] <jatkins> yeah
[16:00] <edmoore> are you happy that s^2 = s*s
[16:00] <jatkins> yep
[16:00] <edmoore> cool. so meters over (s*s)
[16:00] <edmoore> is acceleration
[16:00] <jatkins> ok
[16:00] <edmoore> now along comes a time (unit = s) and it wants to be multiplied
[16:01] <jatkins> yeah
[16:01] <edmoore> it goes on top, with the m, because when you times something with a fraction, you times it with the numberator
[16:01] <jatkins> yeah
[16:01] <edmoore> and when you dived a fraction with something, you times it with the denominator
[16:01] <jatkins> yeah
[16:02] <jatkins> so 5s*m
[16:02] <edmoore> so m/(s*s) multplied with s = m*s/(s*s)
[16:02] <jatkins> ok
[16:02] <edmoore> and you can see you can cancel an s from the top and bottom
[16:02] <jatkins> yeah
[16:02] <edmoore> leaving you with what units?
[16:02] <jatkins> m/s
[16:02] <edmoore> exactly
[16:02] <jatkins> oh cool
[16:02] <edmoore> so with your example of 2m/s^2 for 5 secs
[16:03] <edmoore> 2 x 5 = 10
[16:03] <jatkins> yep
[16:03] <edmoore> and m/s*s * s = m/s
[16:03] <edmoore> so 10m/s
[16:03] <jatkins> *5=50m/s?
[16:03] <jatkins> 50m/s^2
[16:03] <edmoore> and that makes sense - 2m/s^s is, in words, 'every second, i get 2 m/s faster'
[16:03] <jatkins> yeah
[16:04] <edmoore> so after 1 seconds i am at 2m/s, and after another second i have got 2m/2 faster, making me now 4m/s
[16:04] <jatkins> yeah
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[16:04] <edmoore> and after another second, I am 2m/s faster, making me 6m/s etc
[16:04] <jatkins> yep
[16:04] <edmoore> so we have gone from acceleration to velocity, it works the same in reverse
[16:04] <jatkins> oh
[16:05] <akawaka> edmoore: congrats on the nova coverage
[16:05] <jatkins> I think I get it
[16:05] <jatkins> edmoore: I've g2g
[16:05] <jatkins> my dad's waiting
[16:05] <jatkins> going to maplins
[16:05] <edmoore> lets say in 5 seconds I reach a speed of 20m/s. what is my acceleration? talk me through finding the above and you've got it nailed.
[16:05] <jatkins> to get some electronics stuff
[16:05] <edmoore> oh ok
[16:05] <edmoore> cool
[16:05] <edmoore> well good luck!
[16:05] <jatkins> thanks :)
[16:05] <edmoore> akawaka: thanks
[16:05] <jatkins> brb
[16:05] <jatkins> 4m/s^2?
[16:06] <edmoore> yep
[16:06] <edmoore> you've got it
[16:06] <jatkins> yay!
[16:06] <jatkins> :)
[16:06] <jatkins> thanks again
[16:06] <edmoore> same deal with going from distance to speed and speed to distance
[16:06] <jatkins> bbl
[16:06] <jatkins> yep
[16:06] <edmoore> they are all related by time
[16:06] <jatkins> uhuh
[16:06] <edmoore> cool
[16:06] <edmoore> talk later
[16:06] <akawaka> so what happened with nova7?
[16:06] <jatkins> yeah
[16:06] <jatkins> cya
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[16:06] <edmoore> akawaka: cameras failed at about 5km and 7km each
[16:06] <edmoore> before sunrise
[16:06] <edmoore> identil hardware to 6
[16:06] <edmoore> otherwise it went well
[16:07] <akawaka> cold got to the cameras?
[16:07] <edmoore> but we're rebuilding, working on getting a lot more info live on the net for next time (webcam of launch etc) and using better cameras
[16:07] <edmoore> akawaka: as i say, idential hardware to last time so I'm not totally convinced it was cold
[16:08] <edmoore> akawaka: we've got some things to fix/dp better for the next revision of the flight computer too
[16:09] <akawaka> whats the hardware for the flight computer?
[16:09] <edmoore> it's an arm7 cpu
[16:09] <edmoore> lassen iq gps
[16:09] <edmoore> sd card
[16:10] <edmoore> telit gsm module
[16:10] <edmoore> 3 axis of accelerometers
[16:10] <edmoore> oh, radio of course (434MHz 10mW)
[16:10] <edmoore> pressure and temp sensors
[16:10] <edmoore> gyroscopes going on the next board so it can run a parafoil
[16:11] <edmoore> battery management/charging
[16:11] <edmoore> that's about it
[16:11] <edmoore> dimensions of a credit card, double sided pcb from olimex
[16:11] <edmoore> oh, theres general IO and other comm buses going to a a header too
[16:12] <edmoore> it's fairly simple sparkfunny type stuff, nothing too complex, everything talks over spi or i2c or USART. simple and reliable was the name of the game
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[16:14] <edmoore> hi miron
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[16:21] <edmoore> some massive storms building up
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[16:43] <edmoore> hi kc0wys
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: no magnetometers?
[16:44] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: not in the current plan
[16:44] <edmoore> not that much surface area left on the board!
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> Just a vafer-thin-magnetometer?
[16:45] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[16:46] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: i fear it might make it explode violently
[16:46] <edmoore> jcoxon: hi
[16:46] <jcoxon> sadly not as constructive as i hoped - been asleep for the last hour
[16:47] <edmoore> jcoxon: I will be having a heck of an early night tonight too
[16:47] <edmoore> am knackered
[16:47] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: I've got that little baro sensor - though I haven't used it.
[16:47] <SpeedEvil> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8128
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> Oh - 30KPA min
[16:48] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: indeed, that's the one we're using
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> Oh - that's smaller than I've seen before. 2 axis magnetometer in a 16QFN
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> (but it's annoying to use)
[16:52] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: yep - it's only for interest and as a backup for chute deployment
[16:52] <edmoore> even if it did work at 30km, it would probably be far less accurate than the gps
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> I'm probably in the 'way too many sensors' mindset.
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> I've got lots and lots on my UAV - probably lots more than I need.
[16:53] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: we were too, but then just decided to make something and fly it and then iterate.
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> So I can run models on real data and find which are needed.
[16:53] <edmoore> instead of fannying around trying to create the ultimate optimised design for all eventualities. which is the sort of mindset we can get stuck in.
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> I'm not doing that. I hope. I'm simply creating a flexible board that I can easily hook up this set of sensors to.
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> And many other sets of sensors.
[16:54] <edmoore> og for sure, i wasn't suggesting you were, I was saying it's the kind of thing I sometimes do
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> I know the problem.
[16:54] <edmoore> as if plato has charged me with realising his ideal of a balloon flight computer.
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> :)
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> It should be ..... Plate shaped!
[16:55] <edmoore> badum ching
[16:56] <SpeedEvil> I was surprised at how plausible the mass specs looked for a 20g satellite with a camera.
[16:56] <edmoore> yeah
[16:56] <edmoore> thre was some fool on slashdot saying a mobile phone camera sensor alone weighs 20g
[16:56] <edmoore> bollocks, it weighs about 0.5g on a heavy day
[16:56] <SpeedEvil> That was me responding.
[16:57] <edmoore> oh right. ok. I don't mind that then
[16:57] <edmoore> it's a bit XKCD
[16:57] <SpeedEvil> With teh breakdown.
[16:57] <edmoore> 'are you coming to bed?'
[16:57] <edmoore> 'no... someone is WRONG on the internet!'
[16:57] <SpeedEvil> I mean responding to the guy with the 20g comment
[16:57] <edmoore> yeah
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure how much orbital determination you can do with a magnetometer and orientation info alone.
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[16:59] <kc0wys> hello
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: there are bigger phone cams that'll run you around a gram, but they are 2MP or so.
[16:59] <edmoore> yep yep, don't need them
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if you can get ones and twos of the emcore solar cells - even at high prices.
[17:00] <edmoore> no idea. Not really looked at solar cells
[17:01] <edmoore> I was bashed down by someone on #electronics when I asked about solar cells recenty
[17:01] <edmoore> I forget the guys name......
[17:01] <edmoore> Something like. FastDevil or VelocityDemon or something.
[17:01] <edmoore> oh well.
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> Sorry, I can be occasionally abrasive if I'm feeling lousy.
[17:02] <edmoore> :p
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> And you may have hit after an influx of idiot.
[17:02] <edmoore> s'ok, was only teasing.
[17:07] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow /me sighs.
[17:12] <soneil> "As of 2007, the UK is the only nation to have successfully developed and then abandoned satellite launch capability." that's a rather depressing accomplishment
[17:14] <edmoore> Indeed. We need to launch a sattelite.
[17:14] <edmoore> The UK could have launched the most compact sattelite ever, if we manage to do this.
[17:15] <rouslan> Yes, more satellites are needed.
[17:15] <rouslan> There should be a low-cost way of launching them.
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[17:16] <edmoore> How about £1000 a shot?
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> I was wondering last night about the orbit that would - with an uncontrolled reentry - have the maximum coverage of GSM.
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> 1000/20g - not too interesting.
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> 5000/200g - very interesting.
[17:17] <edmoore> indeed, but we're flirting with the upper end of that we can do from balloons
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> 20g, I have a hard time seeing more than a trivial demo satellite.
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: what's the liftoff weight?
[17:17] <edmoore> the squae/cube law starts kicking in, drag is less of an issue, and lanching from the ground is very much easier than launching from a dangling mesh on the edge of the atmosphere
[17:17] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: too far out to asnwer questions like that
[17:18] <SpeedEvil> square cube - according to some numbers I did way back - was not a horrible problem once you get past several tons GLOW.
[17:18] <edmoore> the 100km rocket, I can tell you, weighs about 3.5kg
[17:19] <SpeedEvil> That's orbital.
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[17:19] <SpeedEvil> 100Km is a whole nother ballpark.
[17:20] <SpeedEvil> I even came up with a _really_ stupid guidance solution.
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> Fly along the magnetic field lines.
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[18:10] <mc-> SpeedEvil, why is flying along mag field lines a bad form of guidance?
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> mc-: it's not very efficient - though it's actually not that bad - and ends up in a polar orbit.
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> The advantage is that your whole guidance sensors package costs $9, and fits in a 4*4mm package.
[18:12] <mc-> I guess for a n prize, best to fly an equatorial orbit
[18:12] <akawaka> edmoore_: so how much does getting to 30km help with an orbital rocket launch?
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> akawaka: it eliminates drag.
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> ak
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> akawaka: from a launch from the surface, you have to push away 10 tons/m^2 of atmosphere.
[18:13] <mc-> a magnetic sensor could be oriented to NS and fly East West, couldn't it?
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> akawaka: this is just fine if your vehicle masses (say) 20 tons/m^2.
[18:13] <akawaka> wondering how big they think the rocket will have to be, vs how big it would be launched from the ground
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> akawaka: but once you drop below a ton or several for a launch to orbit, atmospheric drag starts to _really_ bite.
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> mc-: no - the shape of the magnetic field is crucial.
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> mc-: fly directly along a field line, and it takes you north, and then levels out somewhat before the pole.
[18:15] <mc-> might be easier to aim at the sun to get into an equatorial orbit?
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> mc-: fly at any angle to the magnetic field lines, and you need another navigational input.
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> Sun sensors are good, yes.
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> akawaka: you're basically looking at another stage - for low performance rockets - to get to 30Km.
[18:17] <akawaka> couldn't you use gyros for navigation like that?
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> akawaka: there are many possible solutions - the magnetic field one has an advantage of simplicity.
[18:18] <mc-> AIUI, gyros drift too much. sun and mag sensors work well together instead.
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> gyros drift too.
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> Not very badly though.
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> sun sensor + mag field gets reasonably good.
[18:19] <edmoore_> gyros in combination with some other non drifty reference work well
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> Add GPS, and you're good.
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> (though you need to delimit one)
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> Or DIY.
[18:23] <SpeedEvil> (another plan for the above mentioned board)
[18:23] <akawaka> which board?
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[18:32] <SpeedEvil> (STM32 based general processor board)
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> That I'm making.
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[18:35] <jcoxon> ooooo the new WhiteKnightTwo
[18:36] <jcoxon> hey Ba
[18:36] <jcoxon> BadWolf,
[18:36] <BadWolf> hi - back to being that again - hang on
[18:37] Nick change: BadWolf -> RocketBoyv1
[18:37] <RocketBoyv1> yeah - just waiting for the Virgin Galatic clip to come on Sky News
[18:41] <RocketBoyv1> ooo on now
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> Is Mr Virgin on it?
[18:43] <RocketBoyv1> pha - about 30 seconds - contrast that with hours about a pier burning down
[18:43] <RocketBoyv1> nope no Mr B
[18:43] <RocketBoyv1> not in that clip
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> Meh.
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> I can burn down a pier any day.
[18:44] Action: SpeedEvil backs away from the can of petrol.
[18:45] <RocketBoyv1> nothing on sky news active either
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[19:00] <RocketBoyv1> BBL
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[21:58] Nick change: Jos -> jos
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[22:10] Nick change: Jos -> jos
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[22:30] <edmoore_> hi jcoxon
[22:34] Nick change: edmoore_ -> edmoore
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> http://www.amazon.co.uk/View-oscilloscope-showing-voltage-trace/dp/B001D8QPIE/ref=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&s=kitchen&qid=1217281196&sr=8-19
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> I can't decide if this is the result of a society gone mad, or what.
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[23:00] <icez> 130$ :S
[23:00] <icez> hah
[23:00] <icez> that's 259 USD
[23:01] <icez> *opens up the oscilloscope, takes a picture and runs to the print shop* and it'd probably cost 5$ :p
[23:01] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
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[23:02] <jcoxon> haha
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[23:03] <edmoore> jcoxon: sorry back
[23:04] <jcoxon> hey
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[00:00] --- Tue Jul 29 2008