highaltitude.log.20080725

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[00:16] <Laurenceb> back
[00:17] <natrium42> hey Laurenceb
[00:17] <natrium42> so you're staying up tonight? :P
[00:18] <Laurenceb> no
[00:19] <Laurenceb> have to be up for 8am tomorrow for work :-(
[00:19] <Laurenceb> is there still no google earth for 64bit linux ?
[00:20] <Laurenceb> there were 2 cameras on nova6?
[00:20] <natrium42> it's supposed to work
[00:20] <natrium42> maybe i am missing some library
[00:21] <Laurenceb> ah
[00:21] <Laurenceb> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT0348.JPG
[00:21] <Laurenceb> ^ interesting cloud formation
[00:21] <Laurenceb> you can make out the coast - obviously lower sea temperatures
[00:22] <Laurenceb> 0813 is sweet
[00:22] <kamaji> ooh yeah
[00:22] <kamaji> kinda strange though
[00:23] <Laurenceb> you can see all the way to Newcastle
[00:25] <Laurenceb> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT0856.JPG
[00:25] <Laurenceb> ^ nice intertia gravity waves on the coast - the banded cloud in center
[00:26] <Laurenceb> thats vertical atmospheric oscillation induced by the coastline
[00:27] <Laurenceb> 0920 shows similar behaviour
[00:27] <Laurenceb> it would be interesting to import the jpeg into octave and do a 2D FFT
[00:30] <Laurenceb> its a really good demonatration of some basic atmospheric physics :-D
[00:32] <kamaji> What would the FFT do?
[00:32] <Laurenceb> fast fourier transform -
[00:32] <kamaji> I mean what would you get out of it?
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[00:33] <Laurenceb> you should be able to see that cloud pattern appearing in frequency space
[00:33] <kamaji> what, from doing the transform directly on the picture?
[00:34] <Laurenceb> well IIRC theres some jpeg import packages to give you red green and blue arrays
[00:34] <kamaji> oh right, so sort of filter it about a bit
[00:44] <kamaji> right i'm off to bed
[00:44] <kamaji> night
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[00:47] <natrium42> yay, i fixed my google earth
[00:56] <natrium42> just had to delete config data
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[01:01] <edmoore> morning guys
[01:01] <edmoore> we're in the basement of the engineering department, about to head out to the launch site
[01:02] <edmoore> launch might be brought forward to about 3.20
[01:02] <edmoore> trying to optimise the flight profiles for the best photos
[01:03] <edmoore> 25km predicted about 1.35hrs after launch
[01:03] <edmoore> going to 30km in theory.
[01:08] <natrium42> edmoore, cool
[01:08] <natrium42> is that GMT+1 ?
[01:10] <Laurenceb> hi there
[01:11] <Laurenceb> edmoore: good luck
[01:11] <Laurenceb> very nice shots
[01:11] <Laurenceb> did you have a rotating banner thingy?
[01:13] <Laurenceb> or two cameras?
[01:14] <edmoore> natrium42: yes
[01:14] <edmoore> Laurenceb: 2
[01:15] <Laurenceb> ah nice, off gpio on the badger?
[01:16] <Laurenceb> what res?
[01:18] <edmoore> 3
[01:18] <edmoore> yes
[01:18] <Laurenceb> nice
[01:18] <Laurenceb> any idea why the cutdown failed?
[01:19] <edmoore> yep
[01:19] <edmoore> wrong plastic
[01:19] <edmoore> rectified.
[01:19] <edmoore> just fashioing a roof mount for the antenna
[01:20] <Laurenceb> what sort of cutdown was it?
[01:20] <edmoore> explosive tube
[01:22] <Laurenceb> so, are you going for a video this time?
[01:22] <edmoore> no
[01:22] <edmoore> photos
[01:23] <Laurenceb> :-/
[01:23] <jnd> are there new working sensors?
[01:23] <Laurenceb> quick wire it up for video :-P
[01:24] <Laurenceb> or isnt there enough spare gpio?
[01:26] <Laurenceb> well good luck, hopefully there will be some cool shots to wake up to
[01:27] <Laurenceb> I'm off to bed, cya all
[01:30] <edmoore> we're off to set up for the launch now
[01:30] <edmoore> cya all later
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[01:51] <edmoore> we are in churchill college bar where we are setting up a base
[01:51] <natrium42> hehe, nice
[01:54] <edmoore> putting the latest firmware on the flight computer, gluing lots of flashing LEDs to the payload so we see it on the way up
[01:55] Action: natrium42 wishes there was a video webcast
[01:55] <edmoore> natrium42: we will get a webcam up some time in the future
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[01:56] <edmoore> but the online tracking thing is only 36 hours old for us
[01:56] <natrium42> sure, one step at a time
[02:19] <edmoore> small issue with formatting sd card to fat16. resolved. still on course.
[02:21] <soneil> are there business cards on this run ?
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[02:26] <edmoore> soneil: we have 2 cams, one with nothing
[02:26] <edmoore> and the other with something
[02:26] <edmoore> jnw_501: the actual telemetry will be on #highaltitude99
[02:26] <edmoore> once the balloon has taken off
[02:26] <soneil> edmoore: I'll cross my fingers for The Shot then ;)
[02:27] <edmoore> I will have mine crossed too!
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[02:48] <natrium42> !telemetry
[02:49] <natrium42> hmm
[02:49] <natrium42> !telemetry please
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[03:25] <jcoxon> Nova 7 has been launched
[03:35] <edmoore> gleblanc, gordonjcp - it's away
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[03:40] <icez> wee
[03:40] <icez> *looks out to catch it*
[03:40] <jcoxon> icez, 'realtime' on #highaltitude99
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[04:17] <wickerwaka> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L17Ox4FQTkM
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[07:01] <soneil> looks like I can start playing a lot earlier than expected, my boards are at the local fedex depot
[07:01] <icez> playing on?
[07:01] <soneil> I wanna take a shot at one of these :)
[07:01] <icez> :D
[07:01] <icez> i'd love to too
[07:02] <soneil> and fedex just caught me off-guard by getting new toys from the US to ireland in <48 hours
[07:02] <icez> what are you going to use?
[07:02] <soneil> I've got a bunch of arduino boards coming. I ordered twice as many as I need, entirely by accident
[07:02] <icez> twice the fun :P
[07:03] <soneil> so I'll have a small handful of sparkfun's 3.3v variant to play with (ideal for battery-power)
[07:03] <natrium42> soneil, yay, new toys! :)
[07:03] <icez> still not sure what I could use for computer that's small but easy to work with :P
[07:04] <icez> and cheap enough :P
[07:04] <natrium42> so not gumstix, eh...
[07:04] <natrium42> :P
[07:04] <icez> :P
[07:05] <soneil> yeah, something has expensive as that would really have to wait until I've a little more idea if I'll ever see it again
[07:06] <natrium42> micro is sufficient unless you do fancy things
[07:06] <icez> microcontrollers?
[07:07] <natrium42> right
[07:07] <icez> I played with AVRs a while back
[07:07] <icez> ordered 5, fried 2 :P
[07:07] <natrium42> hehe, but they're cheap
[07:07] <icez> got an LED to flash though :P
[07:07] <icez> yeah, they were free :S
[07:07] <icez> i'm just clueless about electronics
[07:08] <soneil> I've a funny feeling microcontrollers are going to be easier for me. "do fancy things" sounds like "lots of things to go wrong"
[07:08] <icez> yeah
[07:08] <natrium42> soneil, i agree
[07:08] <icez> i could use an AVR and open up a pencam i got ages ago
[07:09] <icez> hopefully it still works
[07:09] <soneil> besides, these arduino boards work out to 12 euroes .. so I don't mind if I go through a few
[07:10] <icez> good luck to you :]
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[07:45] <gordonjcp> morning
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[07:55] <RocketBoy> so what happend to nova7 then
[07:55] Action: RocketBoy said with the benifit of a good nights sleep
[07:56] <icez> 33.2km
[07:56] <icez> jcoxon said he'd come back once they found it (but he went to sleep meanwhile)
[07:57] <RocketBoy> ta - any idea where it landed?
[07:58] <icez> well
[07:58] <icez> james lost the signal
[07:58] <icez> but the chase car had it...so we didn't get any updates here after that
[07:58] <RocketBoy> ah I see
[07:59] <icez> around the A453 I believe :p
[07:59] <icez> oh wait
[07:59] <icez> maybe they did find it
[07:59] <icez> http://natrium42.com/track/
[07:59] <icez> not sure if that's the place but yeah
[08:01] <RocketBoy> interesting track
[08:03] <gordonjcp> so they got nova7 up then?
[08:04] <icez> yup
[08:04] <gordonjcp> icez: bear in mind that they transmit gps data back so they can plot the track while it's in the air
[08:06] <gordonjcp> damn, I wish I'd known about all this last week, I was in Wolverhampton for LRL
[08:06] <gordonjcp> could have taken a blat over to say hi
[08:06] <icez> but I think james was (it's james right?:P) tracking it from his place and it just went out of range for him
[08:07] <icez> it's suposed to send an SMS once it lands he said
[08:07] <gordonjcp> ye
[08:07] <gordonjcp> well isn't he in London?
[08:07] <icez> no idea
[08:08] <gordonjcp> I'm sure someone said that the other day, apparently he's in London using an rx with a little whip aerial
[08:08] <icez> he did talk about the whip
[08:09] <icez> and I heard we might get some sunrise pictures:)
[08:09] <icez> from ~20km
[08:10] <gordonjcp> nice
[08:11] <wickerwaka> very nice
[08:11] <gordonjcp> so possible with a semi-decent yagi I could get a signal from up here
[08:11] <RocketBoy> yeah - anywhere within 600km at apogee
[08:12] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: hmm
[08:12] <gordonjcp> time to hit eBay and buy a scanner
[08:14] <RocketBoy> youd be better off with an old ham radio - scanners arn't anywhere near as good
[08:14] <wickerwaka> yeah
[08:14] <RocketBoy> typically the best scanners are 6 to 10db worse
[08:17] <gordonjcp> good point
[08:17] <gordonjcp> I'm planning on becoming active on 70cms soon anyway
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[08:18] Action: RocketBoy is G8KHW
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[08:21] Action: wickerwaka is KI6PFW
[08:22] <RocketBoy> da di da
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[08:27] Action: icez is nothing :(
[08:27] <icez> and good night :P
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[08:29] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: I'm popping along to the local ARC (WOSARS) this evening - funny, you think amateur radio is dead in your area and then find the club meetings are a ten minute walk from work
[08:29] <gordonjcp> the foundation licence looks pretty damn easy
[08:31] <RocketBoy> yeah - I have heard some new (younger) hams in my area too so its not dead - just not as big as it was
[08:31] <wickerwaka> yeah, the technician here in america was really simple
[08:31] <mc-> SpeedEvil, your sondes are from Vaisala, and they don't output GPS, but make GPS measurements.
[08:32] <SpeedEvil> mc-: yes, I know - I wasn't sure f yhe output format
[08:32] <mc-> you would have to write your own nav code
[08:32] <SpeedEvil> AIUI you can get position if integrated frim a ground station.
[08:32] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: my moderately techy mate was in the studio here the other day while I was looking at a past paper on the RSGB website, and got about 40% - and he's not particularly well up on radio stuff, being more an audio guy
[08:33] <SpeedEvil> mc-: any docs on format you know of?
[08:34] <mc-> guess it's just pseudorange data as binary
[08:34] <mc-> I know the asic on the sonde is very basic
[08:34] <SpeedEvil> mc-: probably. I should take another stab at it.
[08:35] <mc-> isn't it easier to just put in a cheap GPS module?
[08:35] <SpeedEvil> I've got several, so the are free :)
[08:36] <mc-> your time isn't free though
[08:36] <RocketBoy> I havn't seen the exam over here - but I think the foundation licence is quite simple
[08:36] <SpeedEvil> no, only if it pops out quickly - not spending too much time.
[08:37] <mc-> you have kalman's already done?
[08:40] <SpeedEvil> mc-: me? No - not got flying hardware yet.
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[08:51] <RocketBoy> I just called the guys - they got it back
[08:51] <RocketBoy> but the camera stopped working after about 1hour :(
[08:51] <SpeedEvil> :) :(
[08:52] <mc-> speedevil, you will need to write a complete GPS engine, have you done that?
[08:52] <SpeedEvil> Much of it.
[08:53] <SpeedEvil> I was involved in the reverse engineering effort on the hammerhead chip - basically a software radio - used in the neo1973, and wrote a bit of code for that.
[08:54] <RocketBoy> Landed somewhere between nottingham and derby
[08:54] <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately that stalled after it wasn't chosen for inclusion in the later model, but have the code.
[08:54] <mc-> it just seems easier to use a GPS module that works out of the box.
[08:54] <RocketBoy> (almost laurenceb country)
[08:55] <SpeedEvil> mj: it is - however I want to learn more about GPS.
[08:55] <natrium42> haha, laurenceb country
[08:55] <natrium42> so what happened with the camera?
[08:56] <SpeedEvil> I'd suspect physical breakage.
[08:56] <RocketBoy> I don't think they know at the mo - just that it stopped
[08:56] <SpeedEvil> temp cycling down to -40C and up again is nasty for equipment not designed for it.
[08:57] <RocketBoy> they are having some breakfast on the way back to cambridge
[08:57] <natrium42> oh, ok
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[08:57] <natrium42> at least they got it back
[08:58] <RocketBoy> yeah - main thing
[08:58] <RocketBoy> and it was another new UK record
[08:58] <natrium42> yep
[09:21] <SpeedEvil> What was the top?
[09:21] <RocketBoy> 33+km - don't know exactly
[09:22] <RocketBoy> 33.2km
[09:22] <RocketBoy> 109k ft
[09:26] <RocketBoy> bbl
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[09:44] <wickerwaka> congrats guy
[09:44] <wickerwaka> been a good week
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[09:52] <gordonjcp> sweet
[09:52] <gordonjcp> RocketBoy: so basically, you want a balloon, the payload, some helium, a receiver *and* a diesel card?
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[10:18] <Laurenceb> hi all, whats the news?
[10:22] <RocketBoy> 33.2km
[10:22] <RocketBoy> Landed somewhere between nottingham and derby
[10:23] <RocketBoy> but the camera stopped working after about 1hour :(
[10:23] <RocketBoy> so no sunrise pics I guess
[10:23] <RocketBoy> bbl
[10:27] <gordonjcp> well, when did they launch?
[10:27] <soneil> about 3.20 local
[10:28] <gordonjcp> yeah
[10:28] <gordonjcp> just looked in my scrollback
[10:28] <gordonjcp> I don't know, that means it was shooting until well after 4am?
[10:28] <gordonjcp> the sun was well up here by then
[10:29] <soneil> I guess that's what we're waiting to hear :)
[10:30] <Laurenceb> bah
[10:30] <Laurenceb> oh ok
[10:30] Action: Laurenceb crosses fingers
[10:31] <Laurenceb> hehe thats about 10 miles from my house, pity I was asleep
[10:31] <soneil> you coould have ran out & replaced the payload with a giant inflatable pig. that'd confuse someone
[10:31] <Laurenceb> lol
[10:35] <Laurenceb> anyone know a UK supplier for crimp housings?
[10:35] <Laurenceb> I cant find any apart from here http://www.toby.co.uk/content/catalogue/products.asp?series=1800%2DHxx
[10:36] <Laurenceb> molex style connectors use too much board space
[10:39] <gordonjcp> Laurenceb: yeah
[10:40] <gordonjcp> like I said before, I wish I'd known when I was at Lugradio Live last week
[10:40] <gordonjcp> that was only in Wolverhampton
[10:40] <Laurenceb> RocketBoy: so was badger just using a radiometrix module stuck straight onto a uart ?
[10:40] <gordonjcp> could have taken a quick spin across to visit ;-)
[10:52] <jcoxon> hey guys
[10:52] <jcoxon> i've woken up
[10:52] <jcoxon> you guys got any news
[10:52] <jcoxon> ?
[10:53] <soneil> they retreived it and headed for breakfast, atleast one camera failed around the 1hr mark
[10:55] Action: Laurenceb wants photos
[10:56] <soneil> ditto. that's the last I heard tho
[10:56] <soneil> I wanna put money on them heading back to sleep tho lol
[10:58] <jcoxon> hey hey
[10:58] <jcoxon> nah they are about 30mins from home
[10:59] <jcoxon> good news and bad news
[10:59] <jcoxon> both the cameras died
[10:59] <jcoxon> and the pictures aren't great
[10:59] <jcoxon> but some are - will need some analysis
[11:00] <Laurenceb> cool
[11:00] <Laurenceb> I'll be back this evening
[11:00] <soneil> both dying is an intersting failure
[11:01] <jcoxon> well they are also very cheap cameras
[11:01] <jcoxon> very reliable usually
[11:01] <jcoxon> but i think they didn't like the poor light - thats one thing that at altitude that isn't usually a problem
[11:02] <soneil> I mean to both fail together like that
[11:02] <jcoxon> it probably was very cold
[11:03] <jcoxon> they are the same make
[11:03] <jcoxon> will have to wait and see
[11:03] <jcoxon> oh guys i was in South London tracking (i see a question earlier about it)
[11:03] <jcoxon> and
[11:03] <jcoxon> Please sign up to the mailing list
[11:03] <jcoxon> http://groups.google.com/group/ukhas
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[11:12] <jatkins> hi all
[11:12] <jcoxon> hey jatkins
[11:15] <jcoxon> my radio log: http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/projects:badger:radiolog2
[11:18] <gordonjcp> jcoxon: what were you tracking with?
[11:19] <jcoxon> Yaesu 790R with only a whip (i don't own a yagi)
[11:19] <gordonjcp> ok
[11:19] <jcoxon> running truetty with wine on my macbook
[11:19] <gordonjcp> what's truetty?
[11:19] <jcoxon> its decoding software
[11:19] <jcoxon> probably teh best
[11:19] <gordonjcp> googling, sorry, lazy
[11:19] <jcoxon> i tried 3 or last night
[11:20] <jcoxon> hehe
[11:20] <gordonjcp> ok, what mode are you using?
[11:20] Action: gordonjcp was playing with gmfsk recently
[11:21] <jcoxon> i was doing rtty reverse 7-asci on LSB at 434.650Mhz, 425Hz shift, 50 baud
[11:22] <jcoxon> i've been using truetty quite a bit as it does Packet radio nicely and i've got that sorted on my next payload
[11:23] <gordonjcp> cool
[11:23] <gordonjcp> well, I'm aiming for doing my foundation licence "real soon now", and I'm probably going to pick up either a 70cm handie over the weekend, or a scanner
[11:24] <gordonjcp> I had a scanner before but it went deaf
[11:24] <jcoxon> if you can get a yaesu i really recommend it
[11:24] <jcoxon> they are the best at this sort of job
[11:26] <gordonjcp> yeah
[11:27] <gordonjcp> I'm quite far north and there's a lot of noise around 430-odd MHz
[11:27] <gordonjcp> but a yagi for 70cms is quite small (think Group A TV aerial)
[11:28] <jcoxon> oh i've wielded many in an open field
[11:28] <jcoxon> they are good
[11:29] <gordonjcp> I need to find my 3-ele 70cms yagi
[11:34] <jatkins> jcoxon: did the launch go ahead at 4:00?
[11:34] <jcoxon> it went at about 3.30
[11:35] <jatkins> oh cool
[11:36] <jatkins> didn't see anything of CUSF site
[11:36] <jatkins> have you got the pics back?
[11:36] <jcoxon> they are slightly slow in updating
[11:36] <jcoxon> ummm they are on their way back
[11:36] <jcoxon> there was some camera trouble
[11:39] <jatkins> ok
[11:40] <jatkins> cam trouble during flight?
[11:40] <jcoxon> yup
[11:44] <jatkins> oh
[11:44] <jatkins> have you seen them?
[11:47] <jcoxon> no not yet
[11:47] <jatkins> ok
[11:47] <jcoxon> they are on their way back to cambridge
[11:47] <jcoxon> i'm in london :-p
[11:47] <jatkins> oh yeah :)
[11:47] <jatkins> hope they got the sunrise properly
[11:47] <jcoxon> i don't think they did...
[11:47] <jatkins> oh
[11:48] <jatkins> well they should still be good :)
[11:49] <gordonjcp> be interesting to see what they got anyway
[11:49] <jatkins> yep
[12:07] <jatkins> bye
[12:07] <jatkins> bbl
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[13:41] <fnoble> hello
[13:45] <fnoble> finally back :)
[13:54] <jcoxon> hey fnoble
[13:59] <fnoble> the natrium42 tracker is really cool
[13:59] <jcoxon> yeah it worked well
[13:59] <fnoble> you guys got a much better idea of where the balloon was then we did
[14:00] <jcoxon> all about mobile broadband
[14:00] <fnoble> yeah, we should try and wangle sponsorship or something :)
[14:01] <fnoble> although i was tracking with openstrrtmap offline data
[14:01] <fnoble> *openstreetmap
[14:01] <fnoble> only 90mb for the full uk dataset, right down to individual house detail
[14:04] <jcoxon> not bad
[14:04] <jcoxon> well next launch i'll run it off my laptop
[14:04] <jcoxon> should be able to get complete tracking
[14:05] <fnoble> cool
[14:05] <fnoble> we are all well keen for atlas
[14:06] <jcoxon> excellent
[14:06] <jcoxon> we'd need to lose more weight
[14:07] <fnoble> oh yeah, nova6/7 was well overweight for its class
[14:08] <fnoble> using the badger with a telit insted of a mobile phone i think we could get really light
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> mobile phones - if you pull them apart can be quite light
[14:08] <fnoble> most of the weight was the thick plastic box and we used metal fixings and hardware to rig it to the balloon
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> the display and stuff is a large fraction of it.
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> And OSM is 90M for the UK - not for recent datasets I think.
[14:10] <fnoble> ok, maybe i got old data
[14:10] <fnoble> had to set it up in a hurry
[14:10] <jcoxon> fnoble, oh you weren't using a telit?
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> That bit of england is quite well mapped I think in general.
[14:11] <fnoble> no, a brick of an old nokia
[14:11] <jcoxon> oh
[14:11] <jcoxon> okay
[14:11] <fnoble> 6310 or something
[14:11] <jcoxon> oh right
[14:11] <jcoxon> definitely then
[14:11] <jcoxon> telit still not working hten
[14:11] <fnoble> and had the full serial cable on there, and didnt shorten the gps antenna which was really long
[14:12] <fnoble> nope, got the dev board through now though
[14:12] <fnoble> so shouldn't be too long
[14:12] Action: fnoble crosses fingers
[14:12] <jcoxon> :-)
[14:12] <jcoxon> there is always goliath
[14:13] <fnoble> yeah, that would be really cool
[14:13] <fnoble> basically a perfect board already made up
[14:13] <fnoble> did you recieve one?
[14:13] <jcoxon> i'yup
[14:13] <jcoxon> its all ready
[14:13] <jcoxon> all working
[14:13] <jcoxon> with packet radio though
[14:14] <jcoxon> i reckon i could rival your lightweight badger for weight
[14:15] <fnoble> sounds good, the badger does still have some issues to iron out
[14:15] <fnoble> like the log file corruption
[14:15] <jcoxon> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/gumstix_bible:goliath
[14:18] <jcoxon> i'm rather impressed with rtty though
[14:18] <fnoble> maybe we could make up a nova6 style radio that the goliath can talk to
[14:18] <fnoble> i think the main thing was majorly insulating the radio
[14:19] <jcoxon> well i want to test packet radio
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[14:19] <fnoble> the radio haad anoother 5 layers of space blanket and another layer of foam and some heatshrink to seal
[14:19] <jcoxon> wow
[14:19] <fnoble> and that was inside the warmbox
[14:19] <jcoxon> ooo fergus are you going to upload some pics?
[14:19] <fnoble> ooo, i dont knwo if i have them
[14:19] <fnoble> ill look
[14:22] <fnoble> nope, iain still has them
[14:23] <fnoble> and he is napping i think, sorry
[14:23] <soneil> silly question, how electrically conductive are the space blankets? do they make a good groundplane for an aerial ?
[14:23] <fnoble> will get them soon
[14:23] <fnoble> they are really conductive on one side
[14:23] <fnoble> ive done some experiments using them as a groundplane with a lot of success
[14:24] <fnoble> on this payload the outer space blanket was connected to the rf ground
[14:24] <fnoble> so it probably helped the groundplane a bit
[14:24] <fnoble> and kept the gps antenna a bit more shielded hopefully
[14:25] <soneil> perfect, thanks
[14:25] <fnoble> although we flew a 4 spoke groundplane as well, just to be sure
[14:25] <jcoxon> https://sourceforge.net/projects/hfterm
[14:25] <jcoxon> ooooooo
[14:25] <jcoxon> now this is interesting
[14:26] <jcoxon> i could shift in between packet and radio
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> Why would you want to shield the gps antenna?
[14:26] <fnoble> jcoxon, did you ever look into taking the DC decoupling cap off the audio output so you could use it as a normal dac?
[14:27] <fnoble> SpeedEvil, the radio downlink is potentially noisy as we are not using any pulseshaping on our output
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> Doubt it'd go that high.
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> It's just FSK 433MHz isn't it?
[14:28] <fnoble> well better safe than sorry
[14:28] <jcoxon> i didn't look into it
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> Not going to touch 1.8GHz
[14:28] <jcoxon> but the packet radio works great with a direct feed in
[14:28] <soneil> my mental picture so far, is that you have gps ontop, because that's where the sky is, downlink on the bottom, because that's where you are, and anything in between that stops tx yelling in it's ear can't hurt
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> Nope.
[14:28] <fnoble> SpeedEvil, your probably right, but you can hear clicks in time with the data edges when the radio is detuned
[14:28] <fnoble> soneil, exactly
[14:29] <fnoble> SpeedEvil, so i thought seeing as we have the spaceblanket anyway, may as well ground it if it could possibly help
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> fnoble: won't hurt.
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> fnoble: well - it might
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> fnoble: as ground isn't.
[14:32] <jcoxon> oooooo i'm quite excited now about setting up rtty as well
[14:33] <fnoble> jcoxon, if you took out the decoupling cap and instead of generating a sine wave on the audio out you just veried between two different values then you would have exactly what we flew on nova6/7
[14:33] <fnoble> that program looks interesting
[14:33] <jcoxon> yeah but if i leave it then i can do packet as well :-p
[14:33] <fnoble> true
[14:34] <jcoxon> i reckon i can get this to alternate between the 2
[14:34] <fnoble> 1200bps would be sey
[14:34] <fnoble> *sexy
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[14:57] <SpeedEvil> QAM!
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> Maybe a bit complex though.
[15:00] <gordonjcp> psk31
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[15:49] <hallam> hey again
[15:50] <hallam> what time did you guys get up?
[15:52] <SpeedEvil> Last I heard the launch was scheduled for 3AM, but camera died after 1h
[15:53] <SpeedEvil> 3:20AM checking logs
[15:53] <hallam> I wonder what killed the camera
[15:53] <soneil> they did get 33k tho, so it's not all a kick in the pants
[15:54] <hallam> they emailed out a couple of predawn pics, have you guys seen those already or should I put them up somewhere?
[15:55] <fnoble> back
[15:55] <soneil> I haven't seen anything yet. assumed they got home 'n crashed
[15:55] <fnoble> hi henry
[15:55] <hallam> hi Ferg
[15:55] <fnoble> ive still not slept properly lol
[15:56] <hallam> haha, I remember that feeling
[15:57] <fnoble> i think its getting on for 31 hours
[15:58] <fnoble> long day
[15:58] <fnoble> ill put the pics up if you give me a sec
[15:58] <hallam> I put the best one here: http://www.pericynthion.org/nova7dawn.jpg
[15:58] <fnoble> ok cool
[15:59] <hallam> any idea what happened to the camera and cutdown?
[15:59] <fnoble> cutdown looks like it fired completely
[15:59] <fnoble> there is only one half remaining and no balloon aattached
[15:59] <hallam> but didn't blow the tube?
[15:59] <hallam> oh
[15:59] <fnoble> nope the whole tube is gone
[15:59] <hallam> why did it continue to go up then?
[15:59] <fnoble> just the endplug
[16:00] <fnoble> dunno, i suspect maybe it only half blew like before but snapped fully at a later point
[16:00] <hallam> makes sense
[16:00] <hallam> camera was temperature related maybe?
[16:00] <fnoble> will try and examine the remaining end more carefully at some point, maybe the edge could give a clue how it went
[16:01] <fnoble> possibly, i dont think it was the badger as the cameras cut out at different points but were triggered from a common cable
[16:01] <hallam> I've had an idea for a different type of cutdown, maybe I'll try to prototype some here
[16:01] <gordonjcp> hallam: trippy
[16:01] <hallam> fresh Li batteries in the cameras?
[16:01] <fnoble> i think these cutdowns were just badly made, i think the idea is sound
[16:02] <fnoble> steve (rocketboy) has used this design for ages with almost no failures
[16:02] <fnoble> but he uses much nicer tube anda shorter length
[16:02] <fnoble> yeah, the batteries were full
[16:03] <fnoble> checked again on the ground and when the cameras were turned off and on again they came to life and reported full battery and started being triggered by the badger again
[16:03] <hallam> peculiar
[16:03] <hallam> could well be temp-related
[16:03] <hallam> night is colder of course
[16:03] <fnoble> yeah
[16:03] <hallam> I was thinking of a cylinder + piston arrangement, with a very tight friction fit on the piston
[16:03] <soneil> how long would the cameras usually idle before auto-poweroff ?
[16:04] <fnoble> or maybe temperature gradient of getting sun on one side at dawn?
[16:04] <hallam> made of aluminium or something
[16:04] <hallam> fnoble: presumably it was spinning at least a bit
[16:04] <fnoble> yeah i was wondering if they have an auto power off, but the shutter wastriggered every 10s
[16:04] <hallam> which should give it an even barbeque roll
[16:05] <gordonjcp> what about a hot wire burning through a nylon loop?
[16:05] <fnoble> hallam, yeah uim sure you are right
[16:05] <hallam> gordonjcp: we tried that before with pretty poor results
[16:05] <soneil> is there any way to check if it did take pictures every 10 seconds tho ? launching in darkness would require longer exposure times, so if exposure + disk write exceeds 10 seconds, the next shutter wouldn't do anything
[16:05] <gordonjcp> hallam: oh, ok
[16:05] <hallam> maybe we were doing it wrong, but we had quite a few tries
[16:05] <fnoble> soneil, thats a very good point
[16:06] <fnoble> even in bright light they take like 8 seconds to take the pic and write it to the SD card
[16:06] <hallam> lots of problems with the hot wire shorting or breaking from fatigue
[16:06] <hallam> but then the shutter after that should take another photo, shouldn't it?
[16:06] <fnoble> yeah the hot wire is hard to do right
[16:07] <soneil> dunno, I'm used to slr, so being able to get off shots until the buffer fills. it's the most obvious difference I can think of a pre-dawn launch making tho
[16:07] <fnoble> there is an american guy with a really good design which is reliable but it looks like a lot of effort went into it
[16:07] <hallam> oh?
[16:07] <fnoble> but explosives are easy and lightweight
[16:07] <gordonjcp> yeah
[16:07] <fnoble> ill try and find the site
[16:08] <hallam> is there a KML from nova7 somewhere?
[16:08] <fnoble> think it was kd7lmo
[16:08] <gordonjcp> I'm just trying to think of ways of building a release where the actual firing device takes no strain
[16:08] <fnoble> hallam, i havnt been arsed to pick throught the logs yet, sorry
[16:08] <hallam> ok no probs
[16:08] <hallam> nottingham is an interesting direction though
[16:09] <fnoble> have you seen natrium42's tracker?
[16:09] <soneil> I was about to mention that, has kml from the radio track
[16:09] <fnoble> http://www.kd7lmo.net/cutdown.html
[16:09] <hallam> no I haven't
[16:10] <hallam> was it in a field as per usual?
[16:10] <fnoble> yeah, luckily
[16:10] <fnoble> was in quite a built up area
[16:11] <fnoble> was in a small paddock of someones house
[16:11] <fnoble> :/
[16:11] <fnoble> well, i guess the paddock wasnt that small
[16:12] <fnoble> but still quite close to nottingham proper and dangerously suburban
[16:12] <gordonjcp> fnoble: that's quite neat actually
[16:12] <hallam> meh, I don't think it would be that bad if it landed in an urban area
[16:12] <hallam> probable worst case, it gets stuck on a roof
[16:12] <fnoble> probably not, the decent rate was about 4m/s
[16:12] <SpeedEvil> Hot wire is easy to do - with lots of power and a fat wire.
[16:13] <fnoble> so quite gentle
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> Getting it right in a small package is hard.
[16:13] <gordonjcp> fnoble: I suspect that would do a bit of damage if it landed on something like a car though
[16:13] <hallam> it's pretty light and well padded
[16:14] <fnoble> yeah, exactly, nothing that would hurt someone badly, but enough to get you in trouble
[16:14] <hallam> speedevil: it's quite easy to make something that works in a lab, but they're a lot less reliable after they've been swinging around in the cold for 3 hours
[16:14] <fnoble> (cold == <-50C)
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> hallam: yes - I was meaning to get something reliable, a cutting wire of the same diameter as the thing to be cut, or a substantial fraction of - works well. But needs a lot of power.
[16:15] <hallam> oh, right
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> Otherwise you risk just melting through.
[16:15] <gordonjcp> yeah, I can imagine it would be hard to simulate -50C
[16:15] <fnoble> anyway, we may be rubbish at making the explosive cutdowns, but they are proven to work really well when done properly
[16:15] <hallam> yes exactly, resealing the wire to itself
[16:16] Action: SpeedEvil ponders solder.
[16:16] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: I was thinking of a shackle, with a spring-loaded plastic bolt
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> Actually secure the rope to a loop of solder.
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> Then hit that with a large current.
[16:16] <gordonjcp> the actual weight of the payload would be on the bolt, but when the release fires it melts the end off the bolt and the spring flicks it away
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[16:17] <fnoble> hi edmoore
[16:17] <hallam> Hi Ed
[16:17] <edmoore> finally
[16:17] <fnoble> how was your drive back?
[16:17] <gordonjcp> how well does the pyro burn at 32km? surely it would need a hell of a lot of oxidiser?
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> Congrats!
[16:17] <edmoore> 4 hours to get hyome
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> gordonjcp: internal oxidiser
[16:18] <edmoore> worst car journey ever
[16:18] <edmoore> I was going out of my mind
[16:18] <fnoble> gordonjcp, its sealed inside a tube at normal atmospheric pressure so i think you dont need to adjust the mix
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[16:18] <gordonjcp> fair enough
[16:19] <SpeedEvil> It shouldn't have an effect anyway - consider the mass of gas in a 1cm*1cm*1cm or so tube
[16:19] <hallam> yeah gunpowders get all their oxygen from the oxidiser in the mixture, air pressure doesn't matter
[16:19] <fnoble> also, it doesnt take much to blow the tube, rocketboy's early ones didnt even use black powder, just had a bare igniter in the tube
[16:19] <hallam> bad traffic?
[16:19] <edmoore> the tube3s we flew today were the wrong shape
[16:19] <edmoore> too flexible
[16:19] <edmoore> the aspect ratio is way out - needs to be much more square and stiff
[16:20] <edmoore> hallam: awful
[16:20] <edmoore> tried three different alternate routes
[16:20] <edmoore> everyone one of them lead to a standstill
[16:20] <fnoble> edmoore, did you make it to work at all?
[16:20] <edmoore> fnoble: no, litteraly just got back, went straight wo work to see the office locked up
[16:21] <edmoore> they'd obviously got the friday afternoon feeling
[16:22] <fnoble> edmoore, check your email though, rob found a couple of good pics
[16:22] <edmoore> fnoble: saw them
[16:22] <hallam> ok I'm out of batteries, I'll be back later, sleep well guys
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[16:22] <edmoore> not sure they're good though
[16:22] <fnoble> ok, bye
[16:22] <gordonjcp> hallam: bye
[16:22] <fnoble> well, they only hint at what it would be like with a non decent camera a bit higher and a bit later
[16:23] <fnoble> but the hint is a very good one i think
[16:23] <fnoble> s/non/more
[16:24] <edmoore> fnoble: oh it's totally tantalising
[16:24] <soneil> would it be possible to fake a launch in a dark room, to see if the longer exposures do start to cause problems ? just let it shoot away and see how the cameras do handle constantly fighting for buffer
[16:24] <edmoore> 'that photo' is def there for the taking
[16:24] <fnoble> soneil, sounds like a good idea
[16:25] <fnoble> camera in a darkend room with a bright point source maybe
[16:25] <fnoble> as i think the huge contrast confuses it
[16:25] <edmoore> fnoble: have driven 670 miles total in the last day
[16:26] <fnoble> gah
[16:26] <soneil> just figure it's a cheap way to rule out the temperature stresses
[16:27] <soneil> (or rule out my theory, for that matter)
[16:27] <fnoble> ok, will try that then
[16:30] <soneil> (I ran into a similar problem trying to do timelapse of sunsets, so it's the only experience I can chip in)
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[16:45] <bobx> where is a good place to get balloons?
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[16:45] <bobx> they seem to have increased in price recently
[16:45] <bobx> and i dont get another altitude from army surplus :)
[16:50] <jiffe98> how big of a balloon was on nova7 this morning?
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[17:22] <SpeedEvil> soneil: I note that a freezer is a dark room.
[17:26] <soneil> well, replicating all the conditions might be worth to see what pops up on the screen when the cameras fight back. but I usually try for one variable at a time :)
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[17:32] <SpeedEvil> I note that even lithium-AA cells suck rather once you get them very cold.
[17:33] <SpeedEvil> was there a temp sensor of outside temp?
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[17:47] <soneil> I can't make sense of the timestamps on the track enough to figure out what kinda alt it'd be at one hour. they're all over the place
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[17:57] <SpeedEvil> Hmm. annoying.
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> I can't seem to find a datasheet which actually reports low temp behaviour of lithium-AA cells.
[17:57] <jnd> soneil: about 10km
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> www.elkuglen.dk/acatalog/l91.pdf
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> You can see that the voltage reallt is quite depressed indeed at only 250mA
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> At -20C
[18:01] <SpeedEvil> (Constant Current Performance / typical discharge performance at 21/0/-20C)
[18:01] <SpeedEvil> beginning of page 2.
[18:04] <soneil> just strikes me as odd that it'd survive 30k on tuesday buy not 10k today.
[18:05] <soneil> I mean, it could well be that, those cycles aren't shocks they're built for
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> it's a fair bit colder if there is no solar gain
[18:05] <soneil> just offered what I've seen running cameras on fixed timers on the ground
[18:06] <soneil> I'd set a timelapse up to grab every 2 seconds, because trial and error showed that to be the nearest round number that the buffer would keep up with
[18:06] <soneil> then it'd get flakey during sunset, because the exposures get longer with the lack of light, and ruin my assumptions
[18:06] <SpeedEvil> Compression can screw things too
[18:07] <SpeedEvil> complex images can take longer to write and code
[18:08] <jiffe98> Helium has a density of about 0.17Kg/cu m - generating a lift of a bit over
[18:08] <jiffe98> 1.0Kg/cu m.
[18:09] <jiffe98> so it only takes 10 m^3 to lift 10kg, eh?
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> At sea level
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> And if you don't constrain the expansion of 10m^3 loaded at sea level
[18:11] <jiffe98> yeah, so if the balloon expansion is considered, the weight can also cause the climb to stall after a certain period?
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> The balloon expands - but does not change in weight.
[18:12] <jiffe98> well the payload weight
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> If the composition of the outside air remains the same as at teh ground, then if the balloon is not under pressure then it will carry on rising with teh same force
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> However, the drag will increase due to the balloons swelling.
[18:13] <jiffe98> that will only slow it down though, correct? as opposed to causing the climb to stall completely
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> Yes
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> If it slows down, it's leaked, or the gas is now under pressure.
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> err
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> stalls
[18:15] <jiffe98> alright, I think I'm seeing the constraints here
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[19:32] <wickerwaka> nova7 news?
[19:32] <wickerwaka> soneil: you're in ireland?
[19:32] <soneil> yes
[19:32] <wickerwaka> where abouts?
[19:32] <soneil> galway
[19:32] <wickerwaka> no shit
[19:32] <wickerwaka> i'm from dunmore
[19:33] <soneil> no idea where that is .. I'm not a native :)
[19:33] <wickerwaka> about 30 miles north, past Tuam
[19:33] <soneil> oh cool
[19:33] <soneil> (I'm english, but being called shaun seems to confuse most into not noticing ;)
[19:34] <wickerwaka> hah, true, i assumed a native
[19:34] <wickerwaka> though i meet plenty of Shauns here in california too:)
[19:34] <soneil> I've had hour-long conversations with guarda immigration and still had them not notice until they got to my passport :/
[19:35] <soneil> I'm not complaining tho. no friction no problem :)
[19:35] <jcoxon> hey guys
[19:35] <wickerwaka> hey jcoxon
[19:35] <wickerwaka> any details from nova7?
[19:35] Nick change: wickerwaka -> akawaka
[19:36] <natrium42> jcoxon, nova7 is linked to nova6 kml on the wiki
[19:36] <soneil> are you still out that way now ? if I pull off some crazy hairbrained plans before my wife kills me, I may need a hand :D
[19:36] <akawaka> soneil: no, i live in california now
[19:36] <soneil> ah
[19:36] <jcoxon> natrium42, oops
[19:36] <soneil> yeah, that'd be a bit of a drive. shame
[19:37] <soneil> thinking of going knocking doors at gmit to see if I can recruit some geeks
[19:37] <jcoxon> natrium42, actually what do you mean?
[19:37] <natrium42> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/list_of_launches
[19:37] <natrium42> "kml" links to http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/log.kml
[19:38] <natrium42> is this correct?
[19:38] <jcoxon> its nova 6 rather then 7
[19:38] <jcoxon> i haven't added nova 7 yet
[19:38] <natrium42> oh, ok
[19:38] <jcoxon> thanks
[19:38] <natrium42> np
[19:39] <jcoxon> oh wait
[19:39] <jcoxon> hmmmm
[19:39] <jcoxon> i'll sort it
[19:39] <natrium42> :)
[19:39] <jcoxon> natrium42, the tracker worked well
[19:40] <natrium42> glad to hear that
[19:40] <natrium42> i need to fix some things... when i have time
[19:40] <natrium42> for example, there is a field mission_id
[19:41] <jcoxon> is there some error detection code?
[19:41] <natrium42> so that you can store multiple missions without having to delete previous ones
[19:41] <jcoxon> as its pretty good at routing out dodgy numbers
[19:41] <natrium42> hmm, maybe the regex isn't matched?
[19:42] <natrium42> and they don't get added?
[19:42] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: better than CNN.
[19:42] <natrium42> dunno
[19:42] <SpeedEvil> http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/Pickover/pc/shuttle.html
[19:42] <natrium42> hehe
[19:42] <natrium42> old but good
[19:42] <jcoxon> natrium42, nah its good
[19:42] <jcoxon> meant that i
[19:42] <jcoxon> didn't have to do it myself
[19:43] <jcoxon> though i plan to sort that in the future
[19:43] <natrium42> yah, it's not very hard
[19:43] <natrium42> maybe flash would be faster than javascript
[19:44] <natrium42> i have to look into it
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[19:49] <SpeedEvil> There are decent flash apps out there.
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> The openstreetmap editor, Potlatch, forex.
[19:52] <natrium42> though google data is probably better
[19:53] <SpeedEvil> In many places yes. Though comes with significant licensing problems in some apps.
[19:53] <natrium42> indeed, i used a flash component for google maps once
[19:53] <natrium42> it didn't even need api key
[19:54] <natrium42> which is ... wrong
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> It's astounding how complete OSM coverage is in some areas, given it's only been a couple of years.
[19:57] <RocketBoy> Has anyone got the NOVA7 landing co-ords (or KML)?
[19:58] <akawaka> johan has his google maps downloader and custom viewing app that we are gonna use for our next launch
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> Which of course is against googles T&Cs.
[19:58] Action: SpeedEvil wishes OS was part of government still.
[19:58] <natrium42> meh :)
[19:59] <SpeedEvil> Then there might be a possibility of getting at the data they have.
[19:59] <akawaka> he was downloading here at work one day
[19:59] <akawaka> and the whole company lost google maps access for two days!
[19:59] <natrium42> just submit the api key and they won't notice
[19:59] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: just because you hide the body doesn't make murder OK!
[19:59] Action: SpeedEvil employs hyperbole.
[20:00] <natrium42> :P
[20:00] <SpeedEvil> However - if you could get actual decent down-pointing imagery of good resolution, that'd be very interesting to OSM peeps.
[20:01] Action: natrium42 screenshots google earth
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> As in many places, the yahoo imagery - which is OK to trace from - is very low res.
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> 30m here.
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> google too.
[20:01] <SpeedEvil> Only place with good imagery is microsoft
[20:01] <natrium42> akawaka, btw, you know that you can use google earth with cached data, right?
[20:02] <akawaka> natrium42: yeah, but the cache is limited and its kind of clunky to set up
[20:02] <natrium42> right
[20:02] <akawaka> plus johans app also includes map data from other sources like nasa and the usgs
[20:02] <natrium42> cool
[20:03] <natrium42> is he going to share it? :)
[20:04] <akawaka> yeah, when we ship this game and his twins turn 18 and he finally gets a free second he'll finish it off i'm sure:)
[20:04] <natrium42> haha
[20:06] <natrium42> i need a better scope :(
[20:07] <natrium42> moon is a bit blurry --> http://www.natrium42.com/gallery2/v/astronomy/2008-08-23+scaled+and+adjusted.jpg.html
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[20:16] <akawaka> shit natrium42
[20:16] <akawaka> thats awesome
[20:16] <akawaka> is that a composite?
[20:16] <akawaka> i thought about buying a scope, but i would have to travel 100 miles to get decent skies
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[21:01] <jiffe98> how far did nova7 travel from start to finish?
[21:01] <jiffe98> 2d
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[21:17] <SpeedEvil> Got a GPX or something?
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[21:20] <RocketBoy> jiffe98 - about 80miles/125Km as the crow flies
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[21:45] <jiffe98> ah cool, that didn't go as far as I thought
[21:55] <RocketBoy> from cambridge to between nottingham and derby
[21:56] <RocketBoy> which is 80m according to google earth
[22:00] <RocketBoy> bbl
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[23:05] <Laurenceb> greets all
[23:05] <Laurenceb> any photos up yet?
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[23:11] <Laurenceb> looks like everyone was discussing cutdowns, I've used a 10 ohm 0.125 watt resistor and insulating tape strip for all my cutdowns
[23:12] <Laurenceb> never failed and I've fired it 4 times at altitude
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> I'd want to make sure that the resistor was specced to that pulse rating.
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> But that sounds like a good solution.
[23:16] <akawaka> hey Laurenceb
[23:17] <akawaka> did the camera work? i thought i heard last night that it had failed?
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> 1h pics only
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[23:18] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Hmm. I see quite a few resistors with a operating temp of 250C (at 1W). That'd be plenty to melt stuff.
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[23:27] <Laurenceb> yes, insulating tape was the lowest I could find, approx 140 or something
[23:27] <SpeedEvil> http://www.vishay.com/docs/30215/cw.pdf
[23:27] <SpeedEvil> Specced to 350C even, and quite cheap.
[23:27] <Laurenceb> I usually run the cutdown off 4 lithium photo AA
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[23:27] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - I'm just wary of using things way over their ratings.
[23:27] <Laurenceb> but I fired one at -20C through a 1A 5V reg and it worked
[23:28] <SpeedEvil> As you don't always know what the failure mode is.
[23:28] <SpeedEvil> If the resistor is specced from -70 to +350C, and you're using it at 250, it's a much happier place.
[23:28] Action: Laurenceb has some photos
[23:29] <SpeedEvil> Of elephants?
[23:29] <Laurenceb> lol
[23:30] <Laurenceb> sorry cooking atm brb
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[23:46] <jcoxon> dum dee dum dum dum
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[00:00] --- Sat Jul 26 2008