highaltitude.log.20080724

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[00:28] <edmoore|away> akawaka: sponsors don;t like watermarks!
[00:28] <edmoore|away> it's a one-off
[00:28] <edmoore|away> as you will see from our other photos, we normally have pretty unobstructed views of space
[00:29] <akawaka> cool!
[00:29] <akawaka> are the flight details anywhere?
[00:32] <SpeedEvil> on the same dir as the pics
[00:32] <SpeedEvil> log
[00:32] <SpeedEvil> log file.txt or soermthing
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[00:53] <Laurenceb> hi all
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[00:53] <Laurenceb> badger has been launched?
[00:53] <jcoxon> hey guys
[00:53] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, been and gone
[00:53] <Laurenceb> wow everyones online :P
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[00:53] <Laurenceb> gone :-S
[00:53] <Laurenceb> Hi SpeedEvil
[00:54] <Laurenceb> what happened?
[00:54] <jcoxon> it was a good launch
[00:54] <jcoxon> cutdown failed and reached 32km alt
[00:55] <Laurenceb> wow
[00:55] <jcoxon> guys is there a link to the pictures?
[00:55] <Laurenceb> you got it back ok?
[00:56] <jnd> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/
[00:56] <Laurenceb> phew so it was recovered
[00:56] <jnd> I like this one http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1489.JPG :)
[00:56] <Laurenceb> is that a new record then?
[00:56] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, i think so yeah
[00:56] <Laurenceb> sweet
[00:56] <jcoxon> it was just higher then nova 1
[00:57] <Laurenceb> certainly looks like it
[00:57] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, managed to track it from london over the radio
[00:57] <Laurenceb> new record :-D
[00:57] <Laurenceb> omg
[00:57] <Laurenceb> RocketBoys?
[00:57] <jcoxon> nah it was rtty without shaping
[00:58] <jcoxon> i had it uploading to the irc channel
[00:58] <jcoxon> was fun to follow
[00:58] <Laurenceb> so the radio log, why does it cut out at 6Km ?
[00:58] <jcoxon> cause it dropped below my horizon
[00:58] <Laurenceb> but it was ascending?
[00:59] <jnd> the log @ the web is from sd card
[00:59] <Laurenceb> ah
[01:00] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: what was the unshaped RTTY performance like?
[01:00] <Laurenceb> as good as shaped?
[01:00] <jcoxon> oh the reason why it cut out is that i haven't updated it
[01:00] <Laurenceb> got you
[01:00] <jcoxon> the performance was excellent
[01:00] <Laurenceb> what was the baudrate?
[01:00] <jcoxon> 50
[01:00] <Laurenceb> ah
[01:00] <Laurenceb> very intervesting
[01:01] <Laurenceb> I'm afraid I've gtg, but well done guys
[01:01] <Laurenceb> cya
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[01:09] <jcoxon> hey guys, anyone around?
[01:12] <jnd> been around, eh? Been around? Snap snap. Grin, grin, wink, wink, say no more? :p
[01:12] <jcoxon> are they launching again tomorrow?
[01:13] <jcoxon> jnd, hehe
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[01:36] <jcoxon> night all
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[02:35] <fnoble> hello again
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[02:37] <fnoble> kml just uploaded
[02:37] <natrium42> hi
[02:37] <fnoble> www.cuspaceflight.co.uk/images/nova6selected/log.kml
[02:37] <fnoble> hi natrium42
[02:38] <fnoble> its a bit wonky in places
[02:39] <natrium42> how high did it go?
[02:40] <fnoble> 32461m
[02:41] <fnoble> really underfilled the balloon
[02:42] <fnoble> it went up really slowly, we had a timeout set on the cutdown of 2.5 hours
[02:42] <fnoble> luckily the cutdown failed as it had only got to about 18km by that point
[02:43] <akawaka> wow
[02:43] <akawaka> look at that flight path
[02:43] <akawaka> awesome
[02:44] <fnoble> tracked it on the radio right down to the ground, last radio fix it was only 200m alt :)
[02:45] <hallam> woo vindication of radio-only-tracking :)
[02:45] <hallam> fergus, shouldn't you be in bed?
[02:45] <fnoble> somehow the radio seemed to work better than usual, jcoxon was picking it up in London
[02:45] <fnoble> hallam, yeah probably
[02:45] <hallam> yeah.. I wonder what made the difference
[02:46] <fnoble> just got back in from sorting out all the gear
[02:46] <fnoble> there is a possibility we might try a dawn launch on friday morning
[02:47] <hallam> fun day then?
[02:47] <hallam> sounds good
[02:47] <fnoble> yeah
[02:47] <hallam> two launches in such quick succession is way cool
[02:47] <fnoble> well the payload is ready to go straight back up
[02:47] <hallam> what will you learn from another launch?
[02:47] <hallam> at least hang a bunch of cutdowns off it and try them all
[02:48] <fnoble> well, its more testing of the basic flight system. want to get the logging to not corrupt the filesystem
[02:48] <fnoble> also really want that daybreak shot over the english channel
[02:48] <fnoble> and there is a good weather window
[02:49] <fnoble> also its good to have some validation data for rob a's simulation code
[02:50] <hallam> fair enough
[02:50] <fnoble> he written something which basically recreates the univ wyoming thingy only you can put in segments with different ascent rates
[02:50] <hallam> nice
[02:50] <fnoble> so it can simulate eg. using a mortarted chute
[02:51] <hallam> how did the cutdown fail today?
[02:51] <fnoble> side blew out
[02:51] <hallam> and have you talked to ed about his design, because that sounded pretty solid
[02:51] <hallam> ok
[02:51] <fnoble> both igniteres fired though
[02:51] <hallam> he uses an acrylic tube with a circumferential score to cause a stress point
[02:52] <fnoble> well thats basically what we used
[02:52] <hallam> so it favour fracturing in the right direction
[02:52] <fnoble> ed's design is actually steves only neateded up a bit
[02:52] <fnoble> steve uses a biro tube instead of acrylic and we copied that
[02:53] <fnoble> we put a circumferential score in, but maybe not deep enough
[02:53] <fnoble> as it split longitudinally )
[02:54] <hallam> yeah I think biro material has a tendency to be more melty and less snappy
[02:55] <fnoble> it did seem quite brittle and the edges look shattered
[02:55] <fnoble> at least it turned out to be for the best :)
[02:55] <hallam> yeees
[02:56] <hallam> but it could have easily gone in the drink
[02:56] <hallam> I think it's a problem that's worth solving
[02:58] <fnoble> yup definately, i do like eds plan of using acrylic tube
[02:58] <fnoble> as then it has fewer imperfections and more constant wall thickness
[02:58] <fnoble> more likely to go where you put in the failure point
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[04:27] <natrium42> grr, google earth doesn't want to work on 64-bit ubuntu :/
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[07:03] <edmoore> hi kc0wys
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[08:40] <jcoxon> morning all
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[08:46] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[08:46] <edmoore> seen the pics?
[08:47] <jcoxon> yup
[08:47] <jcoxon> very nice
[08:47] <jcoxon> didn't know you were doing a bit of advertising
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[09:21] <edmoore> Hi Peter
[09:22] <PeterJones> Hi Ed, Just popped by to see if anyone was about
[09:23] <edmoore> Well, fnoble is in Cambridge prepping, I'm at work in Oxford (such is life) and jcoxon is currently working on integrating yesterday's irc bot with google maps to give a better live telemetry visualisation
[09:24] <jcoxon> a little bit more warning this time :-p
[09:24] <edmoore> I'm not sure when the launch will be, there's the possibility of me getting the afternoon off and charging over there to help with the launch.
[09:24] <PeterJones> Google maps is a good idea. I checked out your launch site: are you launching from a cricket ground?
[09:24] <edmoore> it's the games fields of My College, Churchill College.
[09:25] <edmoore> so yes, if it looks like a cricket ground, it probably is :)
[09:26] <PeterJones> Ah, OK. I'm off to the office just now to set up my receiving equipment (hastily constructed after yesterday). I'll get back on here before lunch if that's OK with you to pick up any new info on the launch time.
[09:26] <edmoore> so you picked up something chirping every 4 seconds yesterday? We're chirping every 10 seconds, iirc
[09:27] <PeterJones> Yes, but the chirping stopped before I could get any decoding done. It was definitely data though and I have better hopes for today.
[09:28] <PeterJones> Did you pick up my ramblings at the n-prize forum yet :)
[09:28] <edmoore> Yes, though in my hurry to get to work this morning I decided to delay writing a decent answer.
[09:29] <edmoore> Until on company time :)
[09:29] <PeterJones> Which company do you work for?
[09:29] <edmoore> It's a summer job with Vorticity Systems
[09:30] <PeterJones> It sounds kind of fuel-flow aerospacey
[09:30] <edmoore> I'm half way through my undergrad degree, otherwise.
[09:30] <edmoore> http://www.vorticity-systems.com/
[09:30] <edmoore> Currently working on the ExoMars descent and landing system, which is a dream come true.
[09:31] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: bouncer, rockets, chutes?
[09:31] <PeterJones> I'm having trouble remembering back as far as my undergrad days, although when the memories do come I can safely say that they are far and away the best of your life!
[09:31] <SpeedEvil> Yogic flier.
[09:31] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: 2 chutes, rockets, vented airbags
[09:31] <edmoore> so no bouncing
[09:32] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: aeroshell then parachutes take off most of the velocity, rockets kill the final tens of m/s, and bags to the ground?
[09:32] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: exactly.
[09:33] <edmoore> And they provide a fairly compilent base to land on if there are any rocks about.
[09:33] <edmoore> compliant*
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[09:43] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[09:46] <SpeedEvil> In that I wonder how much mars observer imagery might help.
[09:46] <SpeedEvil> If your vehicle had it to augment targetting.
[09:46] <SpeedEvil> I suppose that only works if you've got actual control.
[09:46] <SpeedEvil> Which adds lots of work.
[09:47] <edmoore> yes - real time control like that is quite difficult
[09:47] <edmoore> I can't imagine they'd try to achieve it
[09:47] <edmoore> real time between mars sat and mars entry vehicle, anyway.
[09:47] <SpeedEvil> I don't mean from the ground, but autonomous.
[09:47] <edmoore> yeah
[09:47] <edmoore> obviously - it'd all be over before earth heard a thing :)
[09:47] <SpeedEvil> With the database on the vehicle. A terabyte of flash is tyny these days.
[09:48] <edmoore> it's vast in space terms
[09:48] <SpeedEvil> Optical matching of the images with the MGS imagery, so you can effectively zoom in infinitely, even though you've only got a resolution of a hundred meters a pixel with your entry cam.
[09:49] <edmoore> and in terms of the processing power available
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> I've not looked recently at what's plausible.
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> I remember not too long ago I looked at K6 laptop CPUs for redundancy.
[09:51] <SpeedEvil> As tejhy supported a 'bus snoop' mode - where the CPU would simply listen on the bus and raise an error if its state diddn't match.
[09:52] <edmoore> that sounds like a good idea
[09:59] Nick change: jos -> Jos
[09:59] <Jos> Nice pics!
[10:00] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dkragEKSKI&feature=related Perfect in 30 years for 'grandaddy, what was a through-hole PCB'.
[10:01] <Jos> lo
[10:01] <Jos> l
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[10:03] <Jos> irc as root :+
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[10:21] <edmoore> Jos: thanks. Should get some more today with any luck
[10:21] <edmoore> The cloud patterns are different too, which is always nice
[10:22] <Jos> I think the last pics are the best
[10:22] <Jos> the ones at 32km or so
[10:22] <Jos> or wutever how high that was
[10:25] <edmoore> Jos: I agree, they're always good fun
[10:25] <gordonjcp> Jos: url?
[10:25] <gordonjcp> is that from yesterday?
[10:25] <SpeedEvil> Which pic is the apogee?
[10:25] <edmoore> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1489.JPG
[10:25] <edmoore> that's up there with the highest
[10:26] <Jos> heh
[10:26] <Jos> that one from yesterday
[10:26] <Jos> but I had a little bit too much beer to look it up then
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[10:28] <edmoore> fnoble: ping
[10:28] <gordonjcp> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1488.JPG <- pop!
[10:28] <gordonjcp> are those bits of balloon falling away?
[10:29] <SpeedEvil> Looks like.
[10:29] <SpeedEvil> They certainly seem isolated.
[10:29] <Jos> lol :D
[10:29] <SpeedEvil> And that's a very unusual attitude.
[10:29] <SpeedEvil> I don't think I've seen one pointed down.
[10:30] <SpeedEvil> So makes sense it's a traumatic event.
[10:30] <edmoore> oh wow gordonjcp , I had not seen that one
[10:30] <gordonjcp> wonder how it would look if you stuck them together into an AVI?
[10:30] <gordonjcp> maybe the camera would whirl round too much
[10:30] <edmoore> gordonjcp: we have AVI from previous Novas
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[10:30] <edmoore> I think there's a link to some youtube vids
[10:31] <edmoore> on our site... somewhere
[10:31] <edmoore> Immediatelly after burst the motion is quite chaotic
[10:31] <gordonjcp> they are incredible
[10:31] <edmoore> it is dropping but has not got to a speed where there is sufficient dynamic pressure to inflate the parachute
[10:31] <edmoore> which stabilisaes the whole lot
[10:31] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: oh - there is a parachute on there?
[10:32] <edmoore> sorry about by typing, I have two fingers plastere together!
[10:32] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: that would explain why it's so stable when it's coming down.
[10:32] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: yes
[10:32] <edmoore> but with the atmosphere so thin, it takes some velocity before it because inflated and stable itself
[10:32] <edmoore> before it becomes*
[10:43] <jatkins> jcoxon: you about?
[10:51] <edmoore> jatkins: I don't think he is :)
[10:51] <edmoore> Though he was working on something cunning last time I spoke to him
[10:52] <jatkins> ok
[10:52] <jatkins> thanks
[10:52] <jatkins> I had an idea about cameras
[10:52] <jatkins> on HABs
[10:53] <jatkins> : couldn't we just use a CCD instead of a COTS camera
[10:53] <jatkins> i.e. just the sensor
[10:53] <jatkins> as it would be lighter and cheaper
[10:54] <edmoore> jatkins: that is a grand idea
[10:55] <edmoore> as most of the weight of a cameras is spent on interfacing to humans
[10:55] <jatkins> yeah
[10:55] <edmoore> which we obviously don't need
[10:55] <jatkins> lcd screens, etc.
[10:55] <jatkins> not sure how difficult it would be though
[10:55] <edmoore> we just need the ccd, lens, and processing/saving electronics
[10:55] <jatkins> yeah
[10:55] <edmoore> well Steve has done an amazing job with a premier for the atlas flight
[10:56] <edmoore> got it down to 25g or something
[10:56] <edmoore> from 100g
[10:56] <jatkins> wow
[10:56] <jatkins> that's awesome
[10:56] <jatkins> the entire payload + insulation and container?
[10:56] <edmoore> no no, that's just the camera
[10:56] <edmoore> we're aiming for a total weight of 150g beneath the balloon nozzle
[10:56] <edmoore> on a 2kg balloon
[10:57] <jatkins> oh right
[10:57] <jatkins> well that's still great
[10:57] <edmoore> hope to break the all time altitude record for amateurs
[10:57] <jatkins> when are you planning for first launch?
[10:58] <edmoore> well th badger board seems to work as well as we hoped
[10:58] <jatkins> ok
[10:58] <edmoore> and I think it'll probably be a badger-based mission
[10:58] <gordonjcp> edmoore: most of the HCI stuff in a cheap digital camera is integrated with the rest of the guts
[10:58] <jatkins> cool
[10:59] <gordonjcp> it's all one microcontroller
[10:59] <gordonjcp> you could probably lose the case etc
[11:00] <SpeedEvil> And smaller battery, remove the flash
[11:00] <edmoore> gordonjcp: if we really went for it, I think we could do the whole thing for 50g
[11:00] <edmoore> things like a gsm modem are not stricly necessary, but very nice to have
[11:01] <SpeedEvil> Pity it's not 6 months time, I might have a 20g camera you could use (2MP)
[11:01] <edmoore> especially on a mission with the potential to drift enormously because of the crawling ascent rate
[11:01] <gordonjcp> edmoore: I wonder if it would make sense to use a lower frequency for comms
[11:01] <edmoore> I think the issue with the 150g payload on a 2kg balloon (to give you perspective, we got the record yesterday with a 1.2kg payload on a 1.2kg balloon) will be the fidelity with which we can measure the nozzle lift when we fill the balloon
[11:02] <edmoore> there's no point arguing over grams if we can only fill the balloon to x +/- 50g lift
[11:02] <edmoore> gordonjcp: the reason we use that is because it's unlicensed, which is all we're allowed, and it ain't broke. We'd be very interested in applying some more science to it.
[11:02] <SpeedEvil> I suppose overinflation valves are too complex?
[11:03] <gordonjcp> edmoore: fairly sure a foundation amateur licence would cover you for that
[11:03] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: perhaps not, as long as they weren't taken up on the flight
[11:03] <gordonjcp> and you could run a much higher output power
[11:03] <edmoore> gordonjcp: no no, this is with experienced hams on the team who have been lobbying ofcom.
[11:04] <SpeedEvil> I mean to deflate when it gets full due to expansion.
[11:04] <edmoore> it's a very concrete, blanket ban on anything but unlicensed, regardless of your qualifications.
[11:04] <edmoore> *unless* you are boeing and can afford the permits
[11:05] <edmoore> we've tried and tried and tried. They are very aware of what we want. They're just being difficult.
[11:05] <gordonjcp> edmoore: hmm
[11:05] <edmoore> that said, for basic text strings, this has workd very well for us.
[11:06] <gordonjcp> edmoore: and yet amateurs have been running balloon-lofted repeaters for a few decades...
[11:06] <edmoore> we'd only want to invest in something new if we could send one or 2 orders of magnitude more data back
[11:06] <edmoore> kbits/s
[11:06] <edmoore> gordonjcp: in the uk?
[11:07] <gordonjcp> yup
[11:07] <edmoore> I'd be fairly certain that that would be questionably legal.
[11:08] <edmoore> I mean truthfully, I doubt anyone would notice if we sent up a 1W tx, but we want to be above board. We have certain obligations on that regard as an official uni society.
[11:08] <jatkins> edmoore: how much do you reckon a 10 kb/s radio would be
[11:08] <jatkins> from 25km+ alt.
[11:08] <edmoore> jatkins: I have no idea. probably not that expensive, it's more a question of legality than technical feasibility.
[11:08] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: 802.11A, and a really big dish :)
[11:08] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: we have been sorely tempted by that
[11:09] <SpeedEvil> For my (UAV) ranges - 1-4KM - it works quite well
[11:09] <SpeedEvil> (in principle)
[11:10] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: that kind of protocol would be perfect. it's had millions spent on R&D to make it robust, hardware is cheap and plentiful.
[11:10] <edmoore> But I just don't think we could get the range
[11:10] <SpeedEvil> At 30m, only with silly dishes.
[11:10] <SpeedEvil> 30km
[11:11] <edmoore> yeah. and given the balloon as to be an omni antenna.
[11:11] <edmoore> our balloon is a 1/4 ground plane dipole
[11:11] <jatkins> ok
[11:11] <edmoore> so it's radiation pattern is kind of an outwards and downwards cone
[11:11] <edmoore> which is ideal for us
[11:12] <jatkins> well at 434 MHz
[11:12] <SpeedEvil> Same for me - and I figure with a 1.8m dish I can get to 4Km with 802.11 without many problems.
[11:12] <jatkins> or is that just not possible?
[11:12] <jatkins> 802.11A has a tiny range though doesn't it?
[11:12] <edmoore> I'm sure there are much cleverer ways of doing it, but it works well for the time being. I mean jcoxon's bot barely missed a beat, and that was in central london with a whip antenna, at it's closest 100km away.
[11:12] <jatkins> I thought it was far less than 802.11b or g
[11:12] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: it's a bit less, yes, due to the higher noise.
[11:12] <jatkins> ok
[11:12] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: lower noise though
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> jatkins: lower external noise.
[11:13] <jatkins> but 802.11b has a 500 metre range doesn't it?
[11:13] <edmoore> jatkins: it's very heavily dependant on antenas
[11:13] <jatkins> ok
[11:13] <edmoore> antennas are specified with a 'gain'
[11:13] <jatkins> ok
[11:13] <edmoore> higher the gains, the more range you'll get
[11:13] <jatkins> higher gain is bigger antenna?
[11:13] <edmoore> though you normally sacrifice the width of the beam - i.e. the higher the antenna gain, the more accurately you have to point it at the target
[11:14] <SpeedEvil> For a given dish, 802.11A has 4 times the output power as a 802.11B - as 802.11A is twice the frequency.
[11:14] <gordonjcp> jatkins: depends on the antenna
[11:14] <gordonjcp> jatkins: I've run 802.11b over about 10km
[11:14] <SpeedEvil> But at 30KM, neither works well, you're looking at dishes of many meters.
[11:14] <edmoore> jatkins: they are normally physically bigger yeah - just as telescopes can zoom in some much because they collect more light, antennas have a higher gain because they collect for electromagnetic energy if they are bigger
[11:14] <SpeedEvil> (with an omni on the other end)
[11:15] <edmoore> sorry, my typing is all over the place. I wonder if it's coffee.
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[11:21] <[1]jatkins> ..sorry went out a second
[11:21] <[1]jatkins> back now
[11:25] <[1]jatkins> 802.11 is microwave though isn't it?
[11:28] <edmoore> [1]jatkins: yes
[11:28] <edmoore> so it's inherently less ideal for long range through the atmosphere
[11:29] <edmoore> if we could, we'd run on something like 10mhz
[11:29] <edmoore> but that's not really possible for us
[11:29] <[1]jatkins> ok
[11:29] <[1]jatkins> I was thinking about the legality
[11:29] <[1]jatkins> isn't 434MHz just for radio?
[11:30] <SpeedEvil> There isn't _that_ much diffeerence between 434 and 2.4GHz
[11:31] <SpeedEvil> It's only once you get below a few megahertz that propagation changes lots.
[11:31] <[1]jatkins> edmoore: but gps is microwave and that goes up to nearly geosynchronous orbti?
[11:31] <edmoore> [1]jatkins: you can send what you want over it. But all these frequencies are radio frequencies.
[11:31] <[1]jatkins> ok
[11:31] <edmoore> jatkins: the radio waves are unimpeded by a vacuum for most of it
[11:31] <[1]jatkins> ok
[11:31] <edmoore> it's the air that absorbs them
[11:31] <[1]jatkins> ok
[11:32] <[1]jatkins> but 90% of the atmosphere is below 15km
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> It's not the altitude that's the problem - for the 30Km balloon.
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> It's the slant-range.
[11:32] <[1]jatkins> ok
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> Which may be lots more than 30Km
[11:32] <[1]jatkins> down-range?
[11:32] <edmoore> so you get an even better lock in the upper atmosphere. But also GPS transmitters/receivers are *very* clever in their modulation
[11:32] <SpeedEvil> unless you chase it.
[11:32] <[1]jatkins> ok
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: not really. That's only because the satellites are broadcasting 50W over a whole hemisphere.
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: not because of great loss.
[11:35] <edmoore> that's true, of course. But the power reaching the receivers is very small, and they use some impressive algorithms to get the data they need.
[11:36] <[1]jatkins> is there a practical baud rate limit for 434MHz?
[11:36] <edmoore> [1]jatkins: http://www.kowoma.de/en/gps/signals.htm
[11:36] <edmoore> this justifies their reasoning
[11:37] <edmoore> jatkins: for any frequency, there is a limit to the amount you can send over the carrier - it's some function of the frequency.
[11:37] <edmoore> couldn't tell you what that would be off the top of my head
[11:37] <[1]jatkins> ok
[11:37] <edmoore> AM maybe a quarter of the carrier freq?
[11:38] <edmoore> I defer to more knoweledgable people
[11:38] <edmoore> and people who can spell knowledgeable
[11:38] <jcoxon> edmoore,
[11:38] <jcoxon> sorry have been away
[11:38] <edmoore> np
[11:39] <gordonjcp> edmoore: 9600 should be easily doable
[11:39] <jcoxon> are we still go?
[11:39] <edmoore> jcoxon: Don't know yet.
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[11:40] <jcoxon> right well google maps tracking is set up
[11:40] <edmoore> it's a bit blowier today
[11:40] <edmoore> though not necessarily in a bad direction
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[11:42] <fnoble> hello
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: yes, I know, I've designed a GPS reciever, and done a fair bit of hackery on them.
[11:43] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: I defer to you then. That's further than I've ever got
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> (though not built)
[11:43] [2]jatkins (n=jatkins@79-70-228-141.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) joined #highaltitude.
[11:43] <[2]jatkins> oh...
[11:43] <fnoble> i think we have changed our plans and are going to try a dawn launch tomorrow morning
[11:43] <[2]jatkins> keeps cutting out
[11:43] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: there's a guy on here called Laurenceb who has just got a studentship/phd place with SSTL to design the next generation of gallileo receivers.
[11:43] <fnoble> rather than this afternoon
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> I know.
[11:44] <edmoore> fnoble: I was going to say - sunrise pics!
[11:44] <edmoore> and the weather is a bit better
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: he hangs out on ##electronics occasionally.
[11:44] <gordonjcp> edmoore: we know LaurenceB ;-)
[11:44] <edmoore> ha, yeah you tend to remember him
[11:44] <edmoore> great guy.
[11:44] <edmoore> .
[11:44] <[2]jatkins> wow
[11:44] <[2]jatkins> the GIOVE prototypes?
[11:44] <gordonjcp> edmoore: clever lad, except when he's being crazy ;-)
[11:44] <edmoore> fnoble: I think I will come up for that
[11:44] <edmoore> gordonjcp: exactly
[11:44] <edmoore> we give poor laurence a hard time when we go to launches
[11:44] <fnoble> yeah, we want to launch at maybe 4am
[11:45] <fnoble> sunrise is at 5
[11:45] <[2]jatkins> no wait
[11:45] <gordonjcp> edmoore: what do you reckon the slant range would be with a decent antenna?
[11:45] <[2]jatkins> I meant something else
[11:45] <fnoble> could you get back in time for work?
[11:45] <edmoore> he'll do fourier analysis on the predicted oscillations from the parachute descent to see if it will effect the gps receiver
[11:45] <edmoore> but then attach the parachute with blue-tak
[11:45] <jcoxon> edmoore, i'm not editing this log
[11:45] <fnoble> or forget to log altitude data
[11:45] <jcoxon> stop being mean
[11:45] <[2]jatkins> no, I did mean GIOVE
[11:45] <fnoble> :)
[11:45] <edmoore> fnoble: work love the pictures. they won't mind me having a morning off, especially as today is the last tough day of this project
[11:46] <SpeedEvil> gordonjcp: 100Km is about plausible.
[11:46] <edmoore> jcoxon: :p
[11:46] <fnoble> ok, cool
[11:46] <edmoore> fnoble: may come up this eve
[11:46] <fnoble> jcoxon, thanks for your work on logging the radio yesterday
[11:46] <edmoore> in that case
[11:46] <edmoore> fnoble: jcoxon has gone one better
[11:47] <jcoxon> fnoble, no problem
[11:47] <fnoble> that was really awesome
[11:47] <fnoble> one better?
[11:47] <jcoxon> fnoble, of course - google map tracking
[11:47] <jcoxon> as long as i can pick it up
[11:47] <fnoble> heh, sweet
[11:48] <jcoxon> so no launch today then
[11:48] <edmoore> fnoble: is sunrise a possibility?
[11:48] <fnoble> no, we decided not to
[11:48] <edmoore> pm
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> As to maximum datarate on 433MHz - it's about a meg and a half wide, so perhaps 3-10 megabits/sec would be possible with a good signal if you use the whole band.
[11:48] <fnoble> apparently there is a lot of admin to get done today blah
[11:48] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: and people's garage doors pop open and shut over about 200 square miles ;-)
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> gordonjcp: that's a negative?
[11:49] <fnoble> but sunrise is going to happen, the only thing to stop us is we ddont actually have a balloon to use
[11:49] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: hah
[11:49] <edmoore> fnoble: where do we get one?
[11:49] <edmoore> and do we have enough He?
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> Why isn't H used more\?
[11:49] <fnoble> we have more He than we can shake a large stick at
[11:49] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: try getting a university college to store H in a shed for you
[11:50] <fnoble> were hoping to get a balloon from steve sometime today
[11:50] <SpeedEvil> There is that I suppose.
[11:50] <edmoore> fnoble: hows about a 1.5kg balloon then?
[11:50] <fnoble> would be perfect
[11:50] <edmoore> fnoble: need to talk to you on pm
[11:50] <edmoore> answer
[11:50] <gordonjcp> what do you reckon the ab initio cost of a balloon launch like yesterday's would be?
[11:50] <gordonjcp> ie. buy balloons, buy gas, build payload
[11:51] <gordonjcp> assume a reasonable workshop and well-stocked junk box
[11:51] Laurenceb (n=laurence@host86-140-21-48.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[11:51] <Laurenceb> hi all
[11:51] <[2]jatkins> about £150-ish
[11:51] <[2]jatkins> hi lb
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> Invoke his name, and he comes!
[11:51] <Laurenceb> wow loads of paople
[11:51] <[2]jatkins> lol
[11:51] <[2]jatkins> gordonjcp: http://www.rocketsandthings.com/
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[11:51] <Laurenceb> someone wanted me?
[11:51] <edmoore> gordonjcp: I reckon our flight computer is £150 of bits if you buy new from sparkfun
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> No.
[11:52] <edmoore> balloon is about £30
[11:52] <Laurenceb> hi edmoore
[11:52] <Laurenceb> edmoore: good job
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: you were just mentioned.
[11:52] <edmoore> PeterJones6: we are going for a sunrise launch tomorrow
[11:52] <edmoore> we'd like to get 'that photo'
[11:52] <[2]jatkins> http://www.rocketsandthings.com/view/category/31/
[11:52] <edmoore> and it gives us today to assess things a bit more
[11:52] <[2]jatkins> ^^ gordonjcp: chytes
[11:52] <[2]jatkins> chutes*
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1488.JPG - yesterday
[11:53] <PeterJones6> OK, thanks for letting me know.
[11:53] <[2]jatkins> rocketboy sells a lot of the stuff you'll need
[11:53] <edmoore> gordonjcp: probably £250 to mount and do a balloon mission
[11:53] <edmoore> less with junkbox
[11:53] <[2]jatkins> lol
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> How much is the He?
[11:53] <[2]jatkins> www.randomaerospace.com
[11:53] <[2]jatkins> oops..
[11:53] <[2]jatkins> www.randomsolutions.com
[11:54] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: you'll notice from the BOC logis everywhere that it costs us not much, but typically about £40 for a launch in He
[11:54] <[2]jatkins> no, wrong again :)
[11:54] <[2]jatkins> www.randomsolutions.co.uk
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> As a random question.
[11:54] <[2]jatkins> he sells a lot more than on his site
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> Anyone know of anyone that'd fill my own dewar with liquid oxygen?
[11:55] <SpeedEvil> A commercial anyone that is.
[11:55] <fnoble> LOX is a bit hard to get hold of i think
[11:55] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: nope. Try BOC
[11:55] <fnoble> for good reasons
[11:55] <fnoble> :)
[11:56] <[2]jatkins> edmoore: http://www.rfsolutions.co.uk/acatalog/FM_T7G_R7G_Modules.html
[11:56] <[2]jatkins> would that be good for image downlink
[11:56] <[2]jatkins> ?
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[11:57] <[2]jatkins> 0.66 kb/s at 30 km alt.
[11:57] <edmoore> I will be back in 5
[11:57] <[2]jatkins> ok
[11:57] <[2]jatkins> well that would be 30 km downrange
[11:57] <[2]jatkins> actually
[11:57] <gordonjcp> hang on, how about a 2.4GHz video sender?
[11:57] <fnoble> jatkins, that is a similar module to what we used yesterday
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> gordonjcp: with a 34m dish on the bottom?
[11:57] <edmoore> gordonjcp: it's being worked on
[11:57] <fnoble> only more powerful, ours was only 10mW
[11:57] <[2]jatkins> ok
[11:57] <[2]jatkins> what baud rate did you get
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> fnoble: yeah.
[11:58] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: you wouldn't need that on the package, maybe just a little yagi
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[11:58] <SpeedEvil> fnoble: /me wants to try lox/alcohol.
[11:58] <fnoble> we were only running ours at 50baud, but could have gone a lot higher i think
[11:58] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: or better still a helical, with a helical dish feed
[11:58] <SpeedEvil> gordonjcp: yes, of course.
[11:58] <[2]jatkins> use a V-2
[11:58] <[2]jatkins> KSC might have one :)
[11:58] <gordonjcp> SpeedEvil: you'd need a decent antenna somewhere quiet on the ground
[11:58] <SpeedEvil> I have a prototype design for a space program.
[11:58] <[2]jatkins> that was ethanol/lox
[11:59] <edmoore> I think 9600 bps would be quite feasble - we'd want to get a piccy off the sat anyway
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> A stage is nKg, with 1/5th of this as payload.
[11:59] <gordonjcp> 9600bps would be ok for very low res pics
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> This can either be a parachute for recovery and testing, or another stage. You flight test all stages before stacking them for a proper launch.
[12:00] <[2]jatkins> gordonjcp: you could downlink a high-res image in just 15 minutes at that bps
[12:00] <edmoore> jatkins: you can't see the sat for 15 mins :p
[12:00] <[2]jatkins> you can't?
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[12:00] <gordonjcp> [2]jatkins: assuming you see the sat for 15 mins
[12:00] <edmoore> jatkins: no it's in orbit
[12:00] <jatkins> right
[12:00] <PeterJones> If you use a commercial JPEG encoder, you could get it down in much less time
[12:01] <edmoore> you only have it pass over maybe 2 mins at a time
[12:01] <jatkins> 45 minutes in light, 45 min in dark
[12:01] <jatkins> ok
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> The video sender idea might have legs otherways.
[12:01] <edmoore> PeterJones: exactly. There are more tailored ways of getting footage down.
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> You don't feed it video, but a spread-spectrum signal,.
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> And then get decent coding tain that way.
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> gain
[12:01] <jatkins> or you could film it from the launch vehicle
[12:02] <jatkins> are you planning on n-prize or n-prize plus?
[12:02] <PeterJones> Ed, If it helps, I'm running at 38400bps albeit at 500mW
[12:02] <jatkins> if you return it you could just save it to an sd card
[12:02] <edmoore> PeterJones: We can fly what we want in space, but we use 434 10mW over the uk to adhere to offcom rules
[12:03] <edmoore> jatkins: yes that's true. But difficult. Talk to peter :)
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: does OFCOM say what bandwidth you can use?
[12:03] <jatkins> ok
[12:03] <edmoore> no, just limit all airbornes to unlicensed stuff
[12:03] <edmoore> and that basically means 434 10mW
[12:03] <edmoore> unless you want to pay silly money for permits
[12:04] <SpeedEvil> pre-built modules only?
[12:04] <PeterJones> Hold on, I've got my allocations docs around here somewhere
[12:05] <jatkins> edmoore: what is an average (guess) downrange for HAB missions?
[12:07] <PeterJones> Right, you can go to 500mW in the UK at 869.400-869.650MHz at 25KHz channel spacing providing the duty cycle is 10% or less
[12:07] <Laurenceb> edmoore: another launch tomorrow?
[12:08] <fnoble> Laurenceb, going for a dawn launch
[12:08] <Laurenceb> sweet
[12:08] <Laurenceb> you're going launch crazy
[12:08] <Laurenceb> :P
[12:08] <Laurenceb> PeterJones: from altitude?
[12:08] <fnoble> PeterJones, i wonder if that applies to UAVs
[12:08] <fnoble> i thought it was 10mw blanket across all unlicenced bands
[12:09] <PeterJones> ERC recommendation 70-03 doesn't seem to mention altitude .... :)
[12:09] <jcoxon> hmmmmmmmmmmm
[12:09] <jcoxon> the rules are banded according to altitude
[12:10] <PeterJones> let me dig a bit further
[12:10] <fnoble> and i think as our balloons are autonomous they are also categorised separatley
[12:10] <jcoxon> rocketboy worked with OFCOM about this
[12:14] <PeterJones> Nope, it definitely doesn't mention altitude. Just about all other bands are 10, 25 or 100mW ERP limited though.
[12:14] <Laurenceb> interesting
[12:14] <jcoxon> PeterJones, there are altitude rules
[12:14] <jcoxon> its different to radio on the ground
[12:14] <Laurenceb> but I think rocketbo was pretty certain
[12:15] <jcoxon> and its not just licence exempt
[12:15] <Laurenceb> didn't he speak to OFCOM?
[12:15] <jcoxon> you actually can't use 868 for example
[12:15] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, yeah he went down to their labs to do some testing
[12:15] <PeterJones> jcoxon: OK, thanks for the head's-up. I'll have to talk to OFCOM and get a prod in the right document direction.
[12:15] <jcoxon> PeterJones, rocketboy is the man to talk to
[12:16] <jcoxon> he is often in contact with ofcom
[12:16] <jatkins> HI JCOXON
[12:16] <jatkins> sorry
[12:16] <jatkins> didn't mean to be fullcaps :)
[12:16] <jatkins> pressed the key by accident .. anyway
[12:17] <jcoxon> yup
[12:17] <jatkins> could you puts a robots.txt file in the logs directory
[12:17] <jatkins> for yesterday's chat
[12:17] <jcoxon> not really
[12:17] <jatkins> to exclude it from search
[12:17] <jatkins> oh
[12:17] <jcoxon> though i'll edit it out
[12:17] <jatkins> ok thanks
[12:18] <jcoxon> but i can't always do it
[12:18] <jatkins> ok
[12:18] <jatkins> np
[12:18] <edmoore> sorry all, have been away
[12:19] <jatkins> hi edmoore
[12:19] <edmoore> Laurenceb: yes, another launch tomorrow
[12:19] <Laurenceb> cool, good luck]
[12:19] <edmoore> ty
[12:20] <Laurenceb> I'd better get back to work, cya all
[12:20] <jatkins> bye
[12:21] <jatkins> edmoore: how far was nova 6 range from launch site on landing?
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[12:22] <jcoxon> jatkins, done
[12:22] <jcoxon> just be careful next time
[12:22] <jatkins> thanks
[12:22] <edmoore> jatkins: will tell you just as soon as i've finished this sandwich
[12:22] <jatkins> yep, sorry
[12:22] <jatkins> edmoore: thanks
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[12:25] <edmoore> jatkins: 59.5km north-west
[12:25] <jatkins> thanks
[12:26] <edmoore> fnoble: still about?
[12:26] <jcoxon> edmoore, what was the final max alt?
[12:26] <edmoore> 32468?
[12:26] <edmoore> let me double check
[12:27] <fnoble> 32461
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[12:27] <edmoore> 32461
[12:27] <edmoore> too late
[12:27] <fnoble> hah :p
[12:27] <fnoble> btw, ive put up a kml based on the log data
[12:27] <fnoble> its in the same folder as the photos
[12:29] <edmoore> awesome
[12:30] <fnoble> can put up a log of all the gps points in our csv format without corrupted entries too iuw
[12:31] <edmoore> fnoble: there's some wierdness on the ascent
[12:31] <edmoore> multiple traces
[12:31] <fnoble> yeah i know, not had time to look into why
[12:31] <fnoble> i think its just that the points didnt get put into the kml in order
[12:31] <jcoxon> edmoore, fnoble feel free to use the wiki for info
[12:36] <edmoore> we willdo
[12:36] <edmoore> should put alts on that launch list
[12:36] <edmoore> just because :p
[12:37] <jcoxon> pah
[12:37] <jcoxon> there is a record page for that
[12:42] <kc0wys> hello
[12:45] <edmoore> hi kc0wys
[12:45] <fnoble> i think some kind of launch report is going up on the cusf website today or soon
[12:46] <fnoble> so we could link to that from the wiki plus put up some of the data files on the wiki
[12:46] <edmoore> for anyone who missed fnoble's announcement, the kml (open with google earth) from yesterday is here http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/log.kml
[12:49] <kc0wys> alright
[12:49] <kc0wys> argh this computer doesn't have google earth
[12:50] <edmoore> could open it up and absorb the xml yourself
[12:51] <PeterJones> jcocxon: Following on, OFCOM are going to get back to me - the Spectrum guy is out to lunch, but I'll let you know if I have to rip up my RF design or go to a lower power :)
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[12:54] <fnoble> bbiab
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[13:15] <edmoore> jcoxon: we were airborne for 5 hours yesterday
[13:15] <edmoore> just shows how little wind there was that it landed 58km away
[13:15] <edmoore> nova 2 was in denmark by that time.
[13:27] <Jos> :p
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[13:27] <Jos> would you get it if it landed in denmark? x)
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[13:30] <jatkins> hi all
[13:31] <Jos> hi
[13:34] <edmoore> Jos: someone very kindly sent it back to us!
[13:39] <jatkins> edmoore: do you know how to feed the data from a CCD into the microcontroller for saving to an SD card?
[13:40] <edmoore> oh gosh jatkins, that's getting ambitious
[13:40] <jatkins> yeah
[13:40] <edmoore> they have custom chips with jpeg engines on for that kind of stuff
[13:40] <jatkins> but we'd have to do that if we weren't using an off-the-shelf camera
[13:40] <jatkins> ok
[13:40] <edmoore> oh you actually want to build an imager from scratch!?
[13:40] <edmoore> good gosh
[13:40] <jatkins> well
[13:40] <jatkins> just not use a full camera
[13:41] <edmoore> I would have thought it would be a little easier to buy something off the shelf
[13:41] <edmoore> not for consumers, mind, but still off the shelf
[13:41] <jatkins> ok
[13:41] <jatkins> well yeah something like that
[13:41] <jatkins> just like I was saying earlier
[13:41] <jatkins> rather than take the whole cam up
[13:41] <edmoore> I mean it is possible of coure, but you need very fast A/D converters and basically it's a project not worth taking on
[13:41] <jatkins> ok
[13:42] <jatkins> but you were saying earlier it might be possible??
[13:42] <jatkins> or did you mean something different?
[14:00] <jnd> hello, how is it going?
[14:01] <jnd> when will be the next launch?
[14:02] <edmoore> jnd: tomorrow morning
[14:02] <edmoore> about 4am
[14:03] <edmoore> we hope to get a picture from 30km of the sun rising above the earth
[14:03] <jatkins> that'll be spectacular
[14:03] <jatkins> and I thought it looked good from a plane :)
[14:03] <jatkins> (on the way to france)
[14:07] Action: gordonjcp hasn't seen the sun rising from a plane
[14:08] <gordonjcp> normally I'm flying north-south, not east-west
[14:08] <jatkins> it's good
[14:08] <jatkins> from gatwick very early in the morning
[14:08] <jcoxon> while its stunning its also after a lot of sitting in economy - you can feel those DVTs developing in your legs
[14:08] <edmoore> that's why it's easier to send a balloon up
[14:09] <jatkins> :)
[14:18] <jatkins> edmoore: perhaps we could just use a consumer camera and take out what we don't need - lcd, casing, buttons
[14:18] <edmoore> that's the plan
[14:18] <edmoore> it's a fun project
[14:19] <edmoore> got to ebay with £15 to spend
[14:19] <edmoore> buy what you can
[14:19] <edmoore> search for broken digital cameras
[14:19] <jatkins> ok
[14:19] <edmoore> it's usually just the lcd
[14:19] <edmoore> and experiment - you may hit jackpot
[14:19] <jatkins> yeah
[14:19] <jatkins> well Ihttp://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Samsung-i70-Fully-Working-But-Screen-Broken-Boxed_W0QQitemZ260263072694QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item260263072694&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318
[14:19] <jatkins> not cheap though
[14:20] <jatkins> http://tinyurl.com/ebaybrokencams
[14:24] <jatkins> I already have a half-hacked cam though
[14:24] <edmoore> cheap is the trick
[14:24] <jatkins> I'll just finish getting the stuff I don't need off that
[14:25] <edmoore> the cameras we used yesterday were £4 each
[14:25] <jatkins> lol
[14:25] <jatkins> what MP?
[14:25] <edmoore> we're saving the all-singing, all dancing slr for the day when we have a really repeatably reliable operational hardware
[14:25] <edmoore> hopefully badger is the first stage towards that
[14:25] <edmoore> MP = megapixel
[14:25] <jatkins> :)
[14:25] <jatkins> yeah
[14:26] <jatkins> how many megapixels did the £4 cams have?
[14:29] <edmoore> 3
[14:29] <edmoore> ahahaha
[14:29] <edmoore> I have beaten the italians
[14:29] <jatkins> lol
[14:30] <jatkins> btw removing the lcd shouldn't cause any problems could it?
[14:30] <edmoore> it may do
[14:30] <edmoore> I don't know
[14:30] <edmoore> doesn't with the prems
[14:30] <edmoore> I would have thought it would not
[14:30] <jatkins> ok
[14:31] <edmoore> or rather, if I was Jonny Nikon thn I wouldn't design my cameras that way
[14:32] <edmoore> jcoxon: apologies, are you still about?
[14:35] <edmoore> soneil: are you about?
[14:43] <jatkins> g2g
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[15:12] <edmoore> My extended kalman filter has started diverging
[15:12] <edmoore> I think I looked at it funnily
[15:12] <soneil> edmoore: yup
[15:13] <edmoore> soneil: I was just going to say, if you can face an early start, we're going for 4am tomorrow
[15:13] <edmoore> we want to see the sun pop over the horizon at 5am
[15:13] <soneil> awesome. thanks for keeping me clued in
[15:14] <edmoore> jcoxon: will have the bot running, but also a live google maps plugin
[15:14] <soneil> with my schedule, that's a late night, not an early start, so I'll be here :)
[15:14] <edmoore> sorry, there should be no colon after jcoxon
[15:14] <edmoore> infact jcoxon, are you there?
[15:15] <PeterJones> Ed:Just in the middle of a redesign just in case. So I don't trip over you, are you just using the 434.650 channel or do you have plans to use others in the band?
[15:16] <edmoore> we have radiometrix modules in various flavours, but we can easily work around you, so don't worry. but we'd refer to reserve 650 if that's ok
[15:16] <PeterJones> NP. I'll go a couple of channels lower. Ta.
[15:16] <edmoore> I will try and get our tracking antenna done by then
[15:17] <PeterJones> Look forward to seeing it in the flesh
[15:17] <edmoore> then we'll have the amusing sight of various antennas whizzing around in unison
[15:17] <PeterJones> Mine whirrs rather than wizzes
[15:17] <edmoore> well I think ours will be the same
[15:17] <PeterJones> Whizzes
[15:18] <edmoore> fairly geared down steppers on ours
[15:18] <edmoore> I had a vague notion of using it on the motorwar on the roof of the car
[15:18] <edmoore> but I think that's probably better left untried
[15:18] <PeterJones> Likewise. I hope its not a windy day, 'cause mind blew over the other day.
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> I think that would make your geek counter overflow and go negative.
[15:18] <edmoore> we can sandbag it down
[15:19] <PeterJones> Did I catch the earlier posts right: 4am start?
[15:20] <edmoore> Yes, that's the plan.
[15:20] <PeterJones> Is that for temperature/expansion reasons, or because of good pictures
[15:20] <edmoore> It's to get up there in time to get the sun breaking over the horizon
[15:21] <PeterJones> OK. Do you have yaw control over the gondola?
[15:21] <edmoore> this is a technically fairly pointless flight, but something I've always wanted to do :)
[15:21] <edmoore> no, it just drifts its own merry way. I have pan/tilt/yaw in my shed but it's not flying yet.
[15:21] <edmoore> I'm waiting on getting my IMU finished and this kalman filter behaving.
[15:22] <PeterJones> Kalman Filters were my bread and butter 20 years ago. Its only now that I'm dragging out my old code!
[15:22] <edmoore> Oh brilliant, they hopefully will be my bread and butter when I get to specialise next year.
[15:23] <edmoore> But as for now, it's taken quite a lot to get my head around them.
[15:24] <edmoore> But this model in octave behaves most of the time, I just occassionally get divergence if I tweak my noise model
[15:24] <PeterJones> Whatever you end up specialising in, don't go on a chatroom in 20 years time and start remembering the good old days. You'll just sound like an old man!
[15:24] <edmoore> :p
[15:25] <PeterJones> I notice from a previous post that you're working to 3 sigma covariance rather than 2. Does this work better for you.
[15:25] <edmoore> Oh no that was just belt-and-braces.
[15:26] <edmoore> A number we found for our gps hidden away somewhere. Manufacturers are quite territorial over their estimation schemes, which i guess is fair enough.
[15:26] <PeterJones> Are you using differential GPS for the position fixes.
[15:27] <edmoore> no
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> I wish that the hammerhead reverse engineering effort had been better.
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> Basically a 'software radio' GPS chipset that does all the hard-realtime and you talk to it in serial.
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> But you do all the position determination yourself.
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> Used in the neo1973 - and later the iphone 3G.
[15:28] <edmoore> though we have a DGPS with gallileo functionality (it says, though i think it might just be the option to get firmware some time in the future) that we're assessing
[15:28] <edmoore> made by u-blox
[15:28] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[15:28] <edmoore> finding GPS units which don't cut out above 60,000 feet seems to be a challenge
[15:28] <edmoore> jcoxon: question
[15:28] <edmoore> you remember the google earth kml scripts?
[15:28] <SpeedEvil> All sorts of fun hackery in prospect possibly, including utterly ignoring the limits.
[15:28] <edmoore> you could get it to refresh every whatever
[15:29] <edmoore> defy was using it
[15:29] <edmoore> you see where I'm going with this...
[15:29] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[15:30] <jcoxon> right
[15:30] <jcoxon> ummm
[15:30] <jcoxon> yes
[15:30] <PeterJones> There are units that will allow operation over that altitude as long as the velocity limit (515m/s) isn't breached. Although that's a bit of a daft statement
[15:30] <jcoxon> there is a copy on the wiki
[15:30] <edmoore> PeterJones: indeed. We know most of the commercial ones and have used them. And the gist is - test them, regardless of what the datasheets say
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> Would a GPS constellation faker be of use?
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> I've got schematics I did ages ago somewhere.
[15:31] <edmoore> PeterJones: for instance, Sirf III chipsets claim to implement the limits with AND logic, which they do, but then their estimation filter has an upper limit of 24km.
[15:31] <edmoore> which they don't advertise
[15:32] <PeterJones> Ed: Yes, I agree. For me its a moot point as I'll have gone past the speed restriction long past the upper alt.
[15:32] <edmoore> oh yes, we start above one limit and break the other within about 0.8 seconds
[15:32] <PeterJones> but for a balloon I can see its much more important.
[15:32] <PeterJones> One thing I'm dying to know ......
[15:33] <edmoore> shoot
[15:33] <PeterJones> have you simulated orbital insertion?
[15:33] <edmoore> not in massive 6DOF glory
[15:33] <edmoore> but yes
[15:35] <PeterJones> The only reason I ask is because I'm going for insertion to a more-or-less circular orbit, and the degree of precision flying required to get it there more or less blew my socks off.
[15:35] <edmoore> yes it's not all that forgiving
[15:36] <PeterJones> You're not kidding. A few m/sec here or there and it turns into an elliptical orbit with nodes 20km away from where you want them
[15:36] <edmoore> I think we were looking at the range of vectors that'll get us there and make it last 9 orbits.
[15:36] <gleblanc> 20km isn't that far off. :-)
[15:36] <PeterJones> It is when you're now looking at only 10mW to get a signal back!
[15:37] <gleblanc> Signals are the easy part for me
[15:37] <edmoore> I'm not so worried about that - we once tracked nova 2 about 500km out to see through thick atmosphere with little signal loss. curvature of the earth got in the way then.
[15:37] <edmoore> with our 10mW radio
[15:38] <edmoore> it wasn't meant to go out to sea, I hasten to add.
[15:38] <PeterJones> What kind of antenna where you using?
[15:39] <edmoore> the balloon has a 1/4 wave ground plane monopole
[15:39] <edmoore> and the ground is a 13 element yagi
[15:39] <edmoore> actually let me check that.... a loggish yagi anyway
[15:39] <edmoore> longish* forget the element number. I'll count tomorrow.
[15:40] <PeterJones> OK. Was any amplification used at the receiving end or did it feed straight into the receiver
[15:40] <edmoore> the baud rate will have to go right up to get any pics back, which will change things - that time it was 300 baud.
[15:40] <edmoore> straight into the receiver. a yaesu something
[15:40] <edmoore> jcoxon: what yeasu model number?
[15:41] <jcoxon> 790R
[15:41] <edmoore> jcoxon has an identical one 9we rather like them for ballooning) and I'm away from all the kit. And I have an awful memory fo details.
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: what are you contemplating launching?
[15:45] <PeterJones> SpeedEvil: Its a SSTO liquid fueled rocket. The SSTO part may not be strictly true in all senses, but it might ... sorry if that sounds confusing.
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: from teh ground?
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: mass fraction for that scared me right off.
[15:45] <PeterJones> Yes, I know its sounds daft, but it is going from ground level.
[15:46] <edmoore> This is the N-prize
[15:46] <edmoore> sounding daft is no barrier
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: well - no.
[15:46] <PeterJones> The rocket equation for a single stage isn't forgiving, but I have a trick up my sleeve.
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: my orbital ambitions are 3 or 4 stage.
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: perhaps with a whole stage in reserve for extra delta-v.
[15:46] <edmoore> PeterJones: I thought you might. We did do some numbers on this and aerospikes.
[15:47] <PeterJones> Yeeees ......
[15:47] <PeterJones> What did you come up with?
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: very conservative and simple minimum cost design, that won't scale up very far.
[15:47] <edmoore> And.... we thought you must have some trick up your sleeve :)
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> Just don't do conformal tanks, aerospikes, and metallic TPS on one flight :)
[15:48] <PeterJones> Yes. The problem with mass fraction really comes down to the mass of the oxidiser necessary for a complete burn ....
[15:49] <edmoore> !
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> From the ground the fuel is important too. Drag really hurts if you try to go hydrogen for non huge stuff.
[15:49] <PeterJones> For the combination I'm using, the volumetric fraction is 1:9.8 and the Mass Fraction is 1:5.6 F:O....
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: what sort of GLWO.
[15:50] Action: SpeedEvil sighs at typing.
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> GLOW
[15:51] <PeterJones> NP. The GLOW is 225 kg, but with a little tweeking it will come down further.
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[15:51] <SpeedEvil> 225KG? Fuelled?
[15:51] <SpeedEvil> SSTO?
[15:51] <fnobletwo> hello
[15:51] <SpeedEvil> You're MAAAAD!
[15:51] <edmoore> fnobletwo: hi
[15:51] <SpeedEvil> Sounds fun though.
[15:51] <PeterJones> I supposed you've now guessed how its going to be done ....
[15:51] <SpeedEvil> Well, you've got to coast at mach 1 for a while.
[15:52] <SpeedEvil> Droptanks?
[15:52] <PeterJones> There's no coasting here. The bit of the mass that you're missing is the empty weight (30kg) which is the important bit.
[15:53] <PeterJones> No, not droptanks ...
[15:53] <jcoxon> oh guys
[15:53] <SpeedEvil> I mean by coasting throttling back significantly to save on early supersonic drag.
[15:53] <jcoxon> just to warn - this channel is logged - please don't give away trade secrets if you don't want them logged
[15:54] <SpeedEvil> Which by all the numbers I came out with for small vehicles was utterly insane at under a few kilometers, and throttling back saved quite a lot of fuel.
[15:54] <jcoxon> if you want me to edit hte logs you have to be very very nice to me and i'll edit stuff out
[15:54] <PeterJones> jcoxon: I was just about to give it away. Thanks!
[15:54] <SpeedEvil> For me it doesn't matter, I'm unlikely to be able to actually attempt this in the near future.
[15:54] <SpeedEvil> But it sounds like PeterJones might have more concerns.
[15:55] <jcoxon> of feel free to discuss stuff - just wanted to warn
[15:55] <jcoxon> i've already edited the logs once today
[15:55] <jcoxon> is a bit annoying having to use ssh and nano to delete large sections of text
[15:55] <jcoxon> right i'll bbl
[15:55] <PeterJones> SpeedEvil: No, not really.lol! You could say that there's nothing new with what I'm attempting. Its been suggested a couple of times in the past.
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> Annoyingly I find that I diddn't quite specify enough details of a sketch in a usenet post that'd have been prior art for a patent later granted.
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> (diaphramless pumps for rocketry propellants)
[15:57] <PeterJones> All that I'm alluding to is the use of atmospheric oxygen while its available. There are two methods that I'm currently investigating.
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> np: Roger Ramjet soundtrack - track1.mp3
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> That's horribly hard, and lots of people have thrown buckets of money at it and only ended up with empty buckets.
[15:58] <PeterJones> Not quite Ramjet, but it is a similar idea. The other is the use of pulse jets although they're really limited to subsonic flight.
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> I went the other way in my design. What is the absolute minimum hardware I can attach to this cheap tank and make it fly.
[15:59] <PeterJones> That's a good way to go.
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> Also hideous specific fuel consumption.
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> On the basis that a barrel of oil is still actually quite cheap, as is fiberglass.
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> And if you do it right, it's plausible to get small - 1Kg payloads to orbit for not much over the price of a kilo launched in bulk.
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> afterburner ejector ramjet?
[16:01] <PeterJones> you've hit the nail on the head. Use of composites is absolutely essential for these lower powered designs.
[16:01] <SpeedEvil> I disagree.
[16:01] <PeterJones> Go on .....
[16:01] <SpeedEvil> Aluminium used well can be very good.
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> But welding aluminium is ratehr complex, to keep it in the right temper.
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> Even steel isn't actually too bad, in thin sections.
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> Shake a beercan, and jump on it for an example of the enormous strength of inflated shells.
[16:03] <PeterJones> Sorry I didn't make myself clear. I meant for weight reduction.
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> Oh.
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> Sorry, forgot you were in SSTO mindset.
[16:03] <PeterJones> I've been able to think of little else for getting on for 5 months.
[16:04] <SpeedEvil> fiberglass, or CF? and are you doing the filliment winding thing?
[16:04] <edmoore> PeterJones: I am very interested in your recovery system
[16:04] <PeterJones> If the budget will stretch, then CF. Nomex boards provide the bulkheads
[16:05] <PeterJones> Ed: Go ahead
[16:05] <edmoore> hang on, let me just have a look at your site...
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> Oak balls with a microSD inside.
[16:05] <edmoore> i remember thinking something
[16:07] <edmoore> oh yeah, the drogue and main chutes
[16:09] <edmoore> This is, for out 100km rocket, one of the most challenging bits
[16:09] <edmoore> so I was just interested in what kind of chutes you ere using
[16:09] <PeterJones> That is a very very good question for a couple of reasons ....
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[16:10] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: you're deorbiting too?
[16:10] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: or is this something else?
[16:10] <PeterJones> Both chutes are homemade, and the second is made from standard ripstop nylon that deploys to a flying deformable wing configuration.
[16:11] <PeterJones> SpeedEvil: sorry get there in a sec ...
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> np
[16:12] <PeterJones> Deformable so that when deployed at around 15km, its steerable to any one of a number of landing sites depending on exactly where the reentry interface is met.
[16:12] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: Fun - I was thinking of a broadly similar device - but for the single stage test recovery payload.
[16:13] <edmoore> the speed at 15km on your graph seems to be of the order of 50m/s
[16:13] <PeterJones> I remarked on how similar your Meteor project and my recovery mechanisms seemed to be when I looked at the CU dite this morning.
[16:13] <edmoore> ignore what's on the site, but i can answer questions about where the parafoil recovery system is now
[16:14] <PeterJones> Don't take any notice of that graph. The empty weight of that simualtion was only 20kg and the ballistic drag coefficients of the rocket have changed. Plus the deploy alt was different.
[16:14] <PeterJones> I meant to ask. where are you with it now?
[16:14] <edmoore> yeah. You'll appreciate I have a perverse interest in parachutes with my summer job.
[16:15] <edmoore> lots of factors to consider when doing anything supersonically or at high altitude
[16:15] <PeterJones> SpeedEvil: Yes, de-orbit too.
[16:15] <edmoore> opening forces are much higher at higher altitudes for a given dynamic pressure, for example
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: have you discovered a negative matter mine? It'd make getting a payload lots easier.
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: yeah - 15km is about ground level on mars isn't it.
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> No, it's not, that's more like 25.
[16:18] <edmoore> and supersonic deceleration is a whole can of worms
[16:18] <PeterJones> Lol:) Seriously though, the pressure on the drogue is a big, big concern and handling it has contributed significantly towards the weight of the craft.
[16:19] <SpeedEvil> If your parachute looks like a can of worms after deploy, the dynamic pressure was too high.
[16:20] <PeterJones> Lets face it. I'll be lucky to get anything bigger than a 20p peice back, but the design exercise is half the fun.
[16:21] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: I'm not sure I'd totally subscribe to that
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: no, streamers work quite well.
[16:21] <edmoore> the issue is more one of mach - high mach will collapse almost any non-rigid structure
[16:21] <PeterJones> Take the engines for example. If I knew that I'd go through four complete redesigns before arriving at something that was half-decent, I wouldn't have started, but getting there was actually fun.
[16:22] <edmoore> no, streamers are awful supersonically
[16:22] <edmoore> you can make a streamer out of unobtanium and it would only last 20 seconds maybe
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: what have you ended up with?
[16:22] <edmoore> the flutter is very extreme, and it's tough to have an intuition for quite how extreme.
[16:22] <PeterJones> The big decision for me was whether to try for a lifting body reentry or go with the ballistic slowdown.
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: I diddn't really investigate recovery systems other than copying the early spysats in ultraminiature.
[16:23] <PeterJones> Speedevil: 8 inward canted engines with the canonical spike formed in the centre.
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: something like phenolic impregnated balsa with a microSD inside.
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: you've actually hot-tested it?
[16:24] <PeterJones> I've hot tested one (codenames FIDO). Putting the 8 together requires more time (to het them built) and a bigger test area in the middle of nowhere.
[16:25] <edmoore> PeterJones: I thinking lifting bodies are quite volumetricly inefficient for a given amount of stuff you want to land.
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> Regeneratively cooled?
[16:25] <edmoore> and the control would be very difficult. And the modelling/testing.
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: you can get quite a lot of lift, even with an apollo shaped capsule.
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> Soyouz manages a respectable crossrange.
[16:25] <edmoore> yes indeed, just shift the CG about.
[16:26] <PeterJones> Ed: yes, I came to that conclusion also. Control would be very difficult especially as the first part would be by reaction thruster only.
[16:27] <edmoore> yes, and I've always found modelling the dynamics to be tricky
[16:27] <edmoore> especilly the transition from free molecular flow to continuum flow
[16:27] <edmoore> but I'm not an aerodynamicist.
[16:28] <SpeedEvil> Is there any open-source CFD thingy that'll do hypersonics?
[16:28] <edmoore> there are lots
[16:28] <PeterJones> Speedevil: Regenerative and internal curtain cooling. The tricky bit I've found is to keep the thermal boundary from thickening at the point of highest temperature ie the throat.
[16:28] <edmoore> but
[16:28] <edmoore> CFD is only useful when you have some numbers to back it up with
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[16:28] <SpeedEvil> PeterJones: what's your thrust per? 80Kg?
[16:28] <edmoore> on it's own its a very dangerous tool.
[16:28] <gerard_mp> hi
[16:28] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: yes
[16:29] <PeterJones> At sea level, each engine will produce around 320N of thust. I say will, cause its not there yet.
[16:30] <edmoore> I'm currently modelling the ejection of a sabot from the mars descending into a mach 1.9 flow, and t's spinning with a certain angular velocity when it gets in there, so will be generating some lift. Do I trust the numbers it's giving me? no.
[16:30] <PeterJones> Ed: Yours truely is the dream job.
[16:30] Action: SpeedEvil passes edmoore a supersonic wind-tunnel.
[16:31] <edmoore> PeterJones: it would be but for politics.
[16:31] <edmoore> but I guess that's inescapable.
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: when will this potentially hit mars? (hopefully softly)?
[16:31] <edmoore> 2009
[16:31] <edmoore> ...er 2001
[16:32] <PeterJones> It is, and the more you get around, the more you realise how all-pervasive it is.
[16:32] <edmoore> ...er 2013
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> Cool. Time travel too.
[16:32] <edmoore> ...er 2016
[16:32] <edmoore> it's one of those projects, where you give prime contracts to the least competant company because their goverment has payed more money to ESA.
[16:33] Action: SpeedEvil has a canned rant about the procurement of space hardware.
[16:33] <edmoore> if it works and the italians hail it a great success, it will be despite them not because of them.
[16:33] <PeterJones> The cheapest always gets it in the end. Gotta go now .. see you at 4.
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> WAve.
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[16:37] <gerard_mp> edmoore: hello
[16:38] <edmoore> hi gerard_mp
[16:38] <gerard_mp> how are u
[16:38] <edmoore> you probably have worked out that we launched yesterday
[16:38] <edmoore> and are launching again tomorrow
[16:38] <edmoore> so I am very well!
[16:38] <gerard_mp> really?
[16:38] <edmoore> yep
[16:38] <gerard_mp> how did it go?
[16:39] <edmoore> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1489.JPG
[16:39] <edmoore> very well
[16:39] <edmoore> we broke our altitude record
[16:39] <gerard_mp> in meters?
[16:40] <edmoore> 32461
[16:40] <gerard_mp> :O
[16:40] <gerard_mp> very nice photo
[16:40] <edmoore> thanks
[16:40] <gerard_mp> have u got photos of the payload?
[16:40] <edmoore> we will put them up soon
[16:41] <gerard_mp> ok
[16:41] <gerard_mp> I've been working in our payload these days
[16:41] <gerard_mp> I hope to launch it soon
[16:41] <gerard_mp> I had a little problem with the radio
[16:41] <gerard_mp> but it's solved right now
[16:42] <edmoore> brilliant
[16:42] <edmoore> launching is the best bit
[16:42] <gerard_mp> hehe
[16:42] <gerard_mp> which balloon did u use?
[16:42] <edmoore> 1.2
[16:42] <edmoore> jcoxon: we were in the air for 5hours yesterday
[16:42] <jcoxon> yup
[16:42] <jcoxon> you said
[16:43] <edmoore> oh sorry
[16:43] <jcoxon> np
[16:43] <edmoore> i am compiling stats
[16:43] <gerard_mp> I have one question
[16:43] <edmoore> go ahead
[16:43] <gerard_mp> do u have any license to launch the balloons?
[16:44] <edmoore> we have to inform the civil aviation authority
[16:44] <gerard_mp> but nothing more?
[16:44] <jcoxon> gerard_mp, we do have a licence
[16:44] <gerard_mp> where are u from jcoxon?
[16:45] <jcoxon> but we get a blanket permission for a large period of time and then call them 48hrs before and then just before we launch
[16:45] <jcoxon> UK
[16:45] <edmoore> we call it a NOTAM - a NOtice To AirMen
[16:45] <edmoore> that states they should not fly over there
[16:45] <jcoxon> but edmoore we do have a 'licence' as well as the NOTAM
[16:45] <soneil> I'm not looking forward to the bureaucracy .. I'm very close to a landing circuit
[16:46] <edmoore> they're suprisingly allowing - jcoxon launched from just next to a military base
[16:46] <jcoxon> yeah
[16:46] <jcoxon> just had to call them up and ask
[16:47] <jcoxon> but then they launch balloons all the time from military bases
[16:47] <jcoxon> also their ATC is only there on week days
[16:47] <soneil> I think it's gonna be timing more than anything else .. it's mostly GA, commercial are less than 1/hr
[16:47] <gerard_mp> yesterday I phoned to aena, which is the org. that controls air traffic, and they said me that we should put a transponder, I don't know how is it called in english, using that they always know the position of the object. I really find it so stupid
[16:48] <edmoore> don't dispair
[16:48] <jcoxon> gerard_mp, aviation transponders are expensive i think
[16:48] <edmoore> ask the spanish meterological service what they use
[16:48] <gerard_mp> yes, we phoned them too
[16:48] <edmoore> do they have transponders?
[16:48] <gerard_mp> they0ve got a license, but they pay for it
[16:48] <gerard_mp> no
[16:49] <edmoore> oh ok
[16:49] <edmoore> hrm
[16:49] <gerard_mp> do u have it for free?
[16:49] <edmoore> did they specify the transponder?
[16:49] <gerard_mp> no
[16:49] <gerard_mp> ... that's the problem
[16:49] <gerard_mp> and they are so expensive
[16:49] <edmoore> ask them to.
[16:50] <gerard_mp> and weight...
[16:50] <edmoore> you can't be expected to do it without sufficient information
[16:50] <edmoore> perhaps write to your local political leader
[16:50] <edmoore> show them what other european schools are doing
[16:50] <gerard_mp> I don't think we need that, in barcelona the meteorological center does 2 launches per day and they don0t put anything
[16:50] <gerard_mp> hmm maybe
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[16:53] <gerard_mp> what about the communication of your last launch?
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[16:54] <gerard_mp> ah, I forgot to tell you that if we use 5ft parachute descent rate is 6.5m/s, I think we won0t change it
[16:54] <edmoore> ok
[16:54] <edmoore> that's fair enough
[16:54] <gerard_mp> yes
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[16:56] <gerard_mp> hi saballs
[16:56] <gerard_mp> he's the other member in meteotek project ;)
[16:56] <saballs> helo
[16:57] <SpeedEvil> Ooooh.
[16:57] Action: SpeedEvil has another random question.
[16:57] <SpeedEvil> A while back I got a box full of RD-80 radiosondes, by vaisomething.
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> Does anyone happen to know the GPS format these spit out?
[16:59] <edmoore> saballs: welcome
[16:59] <edmoore> excellent project you have!
[16:59] <saballs> thanks jeje
[17:00] <gerard_mp> well I go to program a bit more
[17:00] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: no idea I'm afraid. Most radiosondes I've seen don't have gps
[17:00] <gerard_mp> I need to finish test mode
[17:01] <saballs> gerard: dont brake your head programing jeje
[17:01] <edmoore> does jeje = haha ?
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: these do - I've used a couple of the antennas for stuff, but... Anyway, just wondering if anyone lurking happened to.
[17:07] <edmoore> right, soon I will have to leave for cambridge for tomorrow's launch.
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> Timed cutdown, or GPS based?
[17:09] <edmoore> probably gps
[17:09] <edmoore> though I'd like to go all the way to burst again
[17:09] <edmoore> we really need an uplink
[17:09] <jcoxon> hehe
[17:09] <jcoxon> right then, we should start preparations for the online following
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> Is there a reason not to go to burst if it's recovereable position?
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[17:09] <jcoxon> oh edmoore is this Nova6.2 or Nova7?
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> the balloon could foul tghe chute.
[17:10] <edmoore> 7
[17:10] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: yes that's suboptimal
[17:10] <edmoore> but normally it's ok
[17:11] <edmoore> however in the next revision we will add a feature to blow the chute away withing a few ms of burst
[17:11] <edmoore> by using the accelerometers to detect the burst
[17:11] Action: SpeedEvil hopes a bird doesn't land on edmoores payload.
[17:11] <edmoore> there would be a software altitude switch
[17:11] <edmoore> don't worry
[17:11] <SpeedEvil> Space birds!
[17:11] <edmoore> and burst signatures are relatively characterisable
[17:12] <SpeedEvil> Do birds avoid balloons?
[17:13] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: yes
[17:13] <edmoore> i mean, they have eyes
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> I mean, they don't try to perch on them or something.
[17:14] <edmoore> on I wouldn't have thought so
[17:14] <edmoore> we could make the payload eagle-shaped, maybe
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> I suppose it's rising quite fast at that point.
[17:14] <edmoore> or scarecrow
[17:15] <jiffe98> another launch tomorrow, eh?
[17:17] <edmoore> yes
[17:17] <edmoore> 4am
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> np: Nena - 99 red balloons.
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[17:39] <jcoxon> hey everyone - you can now return to #highaltitude99 if you want your front row seats for tomorrows launch
[17:39] <Jos> edmoore, same balloon-hardware with the other launc?
[17:40] <edmoore> Jos: yes, with some firmware adjustments
[17:40] <Jos> 4AM ?? o_O
[17:40] <edmoore> so it gets the sun popping over the horizon
[17:40] <edmoore> sunrise over planet earth
[17:40] <Jos> nice :)
[17:40] <Jos> hmfz that is in UK time?
[17:40] <edmoore> yes
[17:40] <edmoore> gmt+1
[17:40] <Jos> that is 5AM in holland if I'm correct
[17:42] <fnoble> anyone used gpsdrive?
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[17:43] <jcoxon> fnoble, a long time ago yes
[17:43] <fnoble> how do i get a small scale map of say the whole uk?
[17:44] <fnoble> rather than just downloading bit by bit?
[17:44] <jcoxon> oh i don't know
[17:44] <jcoxon> sorry
[17:45] <edmoore> right, i need to head
[17:45] <fnoble> np
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[17:46] <fnoble> edmoore is late for the party
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[20:01] <jcoxon> evening al
[20:01] <jcoxon> l
[20:07] <gordonjcp> hi
[20:09] <jiffe98> anyone used the lassen iq gps ?
[20:09] <SpeedEvil> Hello.
[20:09] <SpeedEvil> jiffe98: is that the teeny one from sparkfun?
[20:09] <jiffe98> yeah
[20:10] <jiffe98> can't seem to get it to pick up any satellites
[20:10] <jiffe98> it picks up 1, sometimes 2
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[20:21] <SpeedEvil> What antenna are you using?
[20:21] <jcoxon> jiffe98, its the gps that they are using on badger
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[20:41] <jiffe98> yeah I found it on the wiki and it seemed pretty nice, let me see if I can find the antenna
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[20:44] <jiffe98> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=178
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[20:57] <jiffe98> that the same antenna used on the badger?
[20:58] <jiffe98> I can't get to the wiki from here, blocked by sonicwall, woohoo
[21:16] Nick change: kamaji_ -> kamaji
[21:31] <jcoxon> jiffe98, oh sorry, was away - i'm not sure what antenna they are using but i suspect its that
[21:32] <jcoxon> guys, out of interest who is going to be follwing the launch tomorrow morning?
[21:32] <jiffe98> if its web accessible I will :)
[21:33] <jcoxon> i'll try my hardest to pick up the signal :-p
[21:39] <jiffe98> cool
[21:39] <jiffe98> the topic's gone off screen, this is 4am gmt+1 ?
[21:40] <jcoxon> yup
[21:40] <jcoxon> but
[21:40] <jcoxon> from experience its going to be more like 5am :-)
[21:41] <jcoxon> and i won't get a signal for a while until it gets to an altitude of about 6km
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[21:50] <jiffe98> ic
[21:50] <jiffe98> well 5 will be 10pm here
[21:50] <gordonjcp> jiffe98: /topic
[21:50] <jiffe98> ah cool
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[22:06] <gordonjcp> I wonder how far north a balloon would need to be before I heard it
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[22:11] <jcoxon> gordonjcp, i guess we could work it out
[22:12] <jcoxon> remember we've got about 500km range before...
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> depends on the ant too
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> a modest yagi'd help lots.
[22:21] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> You're what - a tenth of a radian away, so it'd be what - 50Km altitude needed?
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> No - half that.
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> 25
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[22:46] <jcoxon> right i think i've got the google earth track working now
[22:52] <RocketBoyV1> ooo where
[22:52] <RocketBoyV1> ?
[22:52] <jcoxon> okay
[22:52] <jcoxon> http://pegasus4.no-ip.org/~jamescoxon/
[22:52] <jcoxon> but there aren't any points yet
[22:54] <RocketBoyV1> I can't seem to connect to that site - I was having problems with the wiki too
[22:54] <jcoxon> hmmmm
[22:54] <jcoxon> wiki works for me
[22:54] <RocketBoyV1> but the ukhas web site is OK - go figure
[22:55] <jcoxon> yup tested it off my remote shell
[22:57] <RocketBoyV1> Somthing must be down between me and the site - cos lots of other stuff works
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[22:57] <jcoxon> hmmm i can't ping you
[22:57] <jcoxon> how strange
[22:58] <jcoxon> something must be down
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[22:59] <Laurenceb> hi all
[22:59] <Laurenceb> are fergus and ed still launching?
[23:00] <jcoxon> haven't heard anything to say they aren't
[23:00] <jcoxon> i'll text later to make sure
[23:00] <Laurenceb> cool :-P
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> That's impressive. Google-earth kills X.
[23:00] Action: SpeedEvil wonders why.
[23:02] <RocketBoyV1> They poped round to buy a balloon about an hour ago
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> libglx.
[23:03] <Laurenceb> RocketBoy: were you at the launch yesterday?
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[23:03] <kamaji> hey all
[23:04] <kamaji> I was thinking of sending up a balloon and I was wondering where you guys get yours from?
[23:04] <RocketBoyV1> really strange I cant even DNS resolve wiki.ukhas.org.uk
[23:04] <jcoxon> kamaji, where are you based?
[23:04] <RocketBoyV1> but ukhas.org.uk is ok
[23:05] <Laurenceb> kamaji: from RocketBoy :-D
[23:05] <kamaji> jcoxon: the UK
[23:05] <kamaji> jcoxon: near cambridge ish
[23:05] <kamaji> Laurenceb: >_>
[23:05] <jcoxon> kamaji, cambridge is the balloon base for the UK
[23:05] <kamaji> also: I think I found the wiki page, heh
[23:05] <Laurenceb> most of us are round cambridge
[23:05] <kamaji> oh, cool
[23:05] <kamaji> actually, i'm in Bristol during term time
[23:05] <Laurenceb> I'm derbyshire, moving to guildford in oct
[23:05] <kamaji> but I live around here
[23:06] <Laurenceb> welcome to the wonderful word of HAB then :-D
[23:06] <kamaji> cheers ^^
[23:06] <kamaji> aghh, I keep finding ideas I've had on your wiki
[23:06] <kamaji> how depressing :3
[23:07] <kamaji> Has anyone tried that helium valve?
[23:07] <Laurenceb> I made one
[23:07] <Laurenceb> but never flew it
[23:08] <Laurenceb> polypipe + servo
[23:08] <kamaji> oh, are those your pictures then?
[23:09] <Laurenceb> well I'd have to give most credit to jcoxon
[23:09] <Laurenceb> and ed and fergus :P theres been loads of launches
[23:09] <jcoxon> and RocketBoyV1 !
[23:10] <Laurenceb> yes, not forgetting you
[23:10] <Laurenceb> bah wish I had more free time atm
[23:10] <RocketBoyV1> yeah - but my launch attendance is down a few notches recently
[23:10] <Laurenceb> working 14 hour days is wearing we out :-S
[23:11] <Laurenceb> *me
[23:11] <kamaji> ouch :\
[23:12] <Laurenceb> big renovation project
[23:12] <Laurenceb> kamaji: http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/ideas:helium_valve
[23:13] <kamaji> already there :)
[23:13] <RocketBoyV1> I thought U guys were all doing exans at the mo - I wouldn't have thought you had any the to renovate anything laurenceb
[23:13] <Laurenceb> RocketBoyV1: finished thanx
[23:14] <jcoxon> RocketBoyV1, i'm the only one with exams left
[23:15] <Laurenceb> kamaji: that design might jam at low temperatures
[23:15] <Laurenceb> bbl
[23:16] <kamaji> o/
[23:21] <kamaji> Has anyone got a Gumstix Verdex board?
[23:21] <jcoxon> yup
[23:21] <kamaji> ok, this might be a stupid question, but how do you connect things to it?
[23:22] <kamaji> what I/O does it have
[23:22] <jcoxon> you need a daughterboard
[23:22] <kamaji> oh, the expansion boards/
[23:22] <jcoxon> potentially 3 serial ports, usb host, audio, gpios, lcd
[23:22] <kamaji> I bet that gets pricey though :P
[23:23] <jcoxon> well it depends
[23:23] <jcoxon> kamaji, is this for a flight computer?
[23:24] <kamaji> well I was hoping to use a Verdex, a hacked apart cheap digital camera and an SMS module all together
[23:24] <kamaji> i'm not sure what you mean by flight computer
[23:24] <kamaji> the main board?
[23:24] <jcoxon> thats what i mean
[23:24] <kamaji> then yeah
[23:24] <kamaji> Are they no good?
[23:24] <jcoxon> basically there is always a discussion on whats the best route to take
[23:25] <jcoxon> oh i really like them
[23:25] <jcoxon> but its to do with taste i reckon
[23:25] <kamaji> oh, I suppose the other route is independent modules?
[23:25] <jcoxon> well some people like PICs, AVRs ARM
[23:25] <jcoxon> while gumstixs are pricey they are really easy to use
[23:26] soneil (n=soneil@pdpc/supporter/active/soneil) joined #highaltitude.
[23:26] <kamaji> I guess you'd have to make a few PCBs with the PIC route, too
[23:27] <jcoxon> yeah
[23:27] <jcoxon> also i use a lot of open source software
[23:28] <jcoxon> so doing comms with a sms module is easy with gnokii for example
[23:28] <jcoxon> and you can use things like perl and python to code in
[23:28] <jcoxon> if you are interesting in gumstixs for ballooning: http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk
[23:28] <kamaji> wouldn't that be pretty slow on a verdex?
[23:28] <kamaji> or do you compile the python
[23:28] <jcoxon> the verdex runs at 600mhz
[23:29] <jcoxon> its lightning
[23:29] <jcoxon> well not lightning but fast enough
[23:29] <kamaji> heh
[23:29] <kamaji> point taken
[23:29] <jcoxon> ooooo
[23:29] <kamaji> ?
[23:29] <jcoxon> can anyone access this:http://pegasus4.no-ip.org/~jamescoxon/
[23:30] <kamaji> works for me
[23:30] <jcoxon> do you have google earth
[23:30] <soneil> the playstation 2 was <300MHz risc. if 600MHz risc isn't fast enough, you're getting sloppy :/
[23:30] <kamaji> possibly...
[23:30] natrium42 (n=alexei@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude.
[23:30] <jcoxon> just need someone to test the network link
[23:31] <kamaji> firin' it up
[23:31] <jcoxon> just need to download that badger.kml file and then open it with google earth
[23:31] <kamaji> I think i've broken this installation
[23:31] <kamaji> I'll reinstall
[23:32] <jcoxon> hehe
[23:32] <jcoxon> natrium42, i've finally rigged my software to update your tracker
[23:33] <soneil> the flight path shows for me. and it's in a subfolder with the "folder with pipe" icon, so looks convincing
[23:33] <jcoxon> does it update?
[23:33] <jcoxon> i've accelerated the flight path from yesterday
[23:33] <natrium42> jcoxon, oh, awesome
[23:33] <natrium42> when's the launch? :)
[23:33] <jcoxon> 4am gmt+1
[23:33] <natrium42> what day?
[23:34] <jcoxon> tomorrow morning
[23:34] <kamaji> :o
[23:34] <natrium42> oooh, really?
[23:34] <jcoxon> in 4 1/2 hours
[23:34] <natrium42> yay
[23:34] <soneil> woah! it does indeed
[23:34] <jcoxon> more your timezone then mine
[23:34] <soneil> that's awesome
[23:34] <jcoxon> wohooo
[23:34] <jcoxon> excellent
[23:34] <natrium42> why didn't you tell me in advance?! :P
[23:34] <jcoxon> actually i realised that i didn't need to do this as natriums google map site does it as well
[23:34] <jcoxon> right
[23:34] <jcoxon> i'll turn it off now
[23:36] <jcoxon> right a few more little hacks to do then need to get some sleep
[23:36] <kamaji> good luck tomorrow
[23:36] <natrium42> yeah, good luck
[23:36] <natrium42> what's the payload?
[23:36] <jcoxon> well
[23:36] <jcoxon> we actually have a launch yesterday
[23:36] <jcoxon> of nova 6 (which is badger 1)
[23:36] <jcoxon> which reached 32km
[23:37] <jcoxon> they are relaunching it tomorrow morning to attempt for some sunrise pictures
[23:37] <jcoxon> (which are the holy grail of pictures
[23:37] <kamaji> awh, i'm jealous now :
[23:37] <jcoxon> so am I
[23:38] <kamaji> I expect some lovely wallpapers :D
[23:38] <jcoxon> natrium42, tracking is done on #highaltitude99
[23:38] <natrium42> a shot of the sunrise would be crazy
[23:38] <natrium42> jcoxon, so the updates are going to be sent to the tracker?
[23:38] <jcoxon> basically, last flight i managed to pick up the radio signal all the way in london
[23:38] <jcoxon> which i then managed to log to a file, do a bit of parsing and upload
[23:39] <jcoxon> so hopefully tomorrow morning i'll be able to do the same
[23:39] <jcoxon> but this time upload to your tracker as well
[23:39] <jcoxon> and my google earth network link
[23:39] <natrium42> ok, sounds good
[23:39] <jcoxon> but it does rely on me getting a signal
[23:40] <jcoxon> when i'm out in the field next time i'll have mobile broadband so it'll definitely work
[23:40] <jcoxon> but this time i'm in london so it might/ might not
[23:40] <jcoxon> fingers crossed
[23:40] <kamaji> is that file the filght path from yesterday?
[23:40] jos (i=Jos@unaffiliated/jos) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
[23:40] <jcoxon> what i was runnign earlier, yes
[23:40] <jcoxon> a little bit of ti
[23:41] <jcoxon> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/
[23:41] Jos (i=Jos@Lithium.Flauw.net) joined #highaltitude.
[23:41] Nick change: Jos -> jos
[23:42] <kamaji> oooooh purdy
[23:44] <natrium42> yeah
[23:44] <natrium42> is that the coast visible?
[23:44] <jcoxon> yeah
[23:45] <jcoxon> there is a full flight path at the bottom of the page
[23:47] <natrium42> grr. i need to make google earth work on ubuntu
[23:48] <kamaji> is it crashing on startup?
[23:48] <natrium42> no
[23:48] <natrium42> there is no earth
[23:48] <natrium42> just stars
[23:48] <natrium42> very weird
[23:48] <kamaji> oh, heh
[23:49] <kamaji> mine runs ridiculously slowly
[23:49] <natrium42> 64-bit linux, maybe that's why...?
[23:49] <kamaji> I thought 32-bit stuff ran normally though?
[23:49] <SpeedEvil> Mine crashes X.
[23:49] <SpeedEvil> Which was annoying.
[23:51] <jcoxon> right
[23:51] <jcoxon> launch has been brought a little forward
[23:51] <natrium42> ed needs more sleep?
[23:51] <jcoxon> they are going for 03:40
[23:51] <natrium42> ok
[23:51] <jcoxon> wanna catch the sunrise at max alt
[23:52] <jcoxon> i'm off to bed for 3 hours
[23:52] <kamaji> have fun :)
[23:52] <jcoxon> night all
[23:53] <kamaji> nn
[23:55] <natrium42> nite jcoxon
[23:55] <RocketBoyV1> cu guys
[23:55] RocketBoyV1 (n=grunge@217.47.75.27) left irc: "Leaving"
[00:00] --- Fri Jul 25 2008