highaltitude.log.20080723

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[09:07] <edmoore> ,orning jcoxon
[09:22] <jcoxon> morning edmoore
[09:22] <jcoxon> ping edmoore
[09:22] <jcoxon> launch still on?
[09:25] <edmoore> jcoxon: yo
[09:25] <edmoore> no idea
[09:26] <edmoore> I was asked last night by fergus if i was 'still ok' to launch today
[09:26] <edmoore> I never was ok in the first place, given i have a full time job.
[09:26] <edmoore> so they had no car, last I heard
[09:26] <jcoxon> oh
[09:27] <jcoxon> this sounds perhaps like a launch to delay to another day
[09:28] <jcoxon> urght the jetstream ain't great either
[09:29] <jcoxon> actually i take that back - the models are good
[09:29] <jcoxon> oh well
[09:29] <jcoxon> edmoore, time for me to publish more wiki stats?
[09:34] <edmoore> ?
[09:34] <edmoore> yes
[09:34] <edmoore> do
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[09:39] <jcoxon> done
[09:39] <edmoore> how do i see thm?
[09:40] <jcoxon> should be able to download it off teh wiki
[09:40] <jcoxon> on hte front page
[09:40] <edmoore> link me
[09:40] <edmoore> cos I'm layzee
[09:40] <jcoxon> oops
[09:40] <jcoxon> thats teh old one
[09:40] <jcoxon> one sec
[09:41] <jcoxon> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/_media/analytics_wiki.ukhas.org.uk_20080128-20080722_dashboardreport_.pdf?id=start&cache=cache
[09:41] <jcoxon> you are lazy
[09:43] <edmoore> I can see the influence of gerard
[09:43] <jcoxon> hits from spain?
[09:44] <edmoore> yeah
[09:48] <jcoxon> i like looking at stats
[09:49] <jcoxon> right i better do something useful
[09:49] <jcoxon> bbl
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[10:10] <jcoxon> edmoore,
[10:11] <jcoxon> whats the best way that i could use my onboard accelerometers? snapshot readings with timestamps?
[10:11] <edmoore> jcoxon: yes
[10:11] <edmoore> that's how we're doing it
[10:12] <jcoxon> i don't want to waste too many resources on it
[10:12] <edmoore> well pick a speed to write stuff to logs
[10:12] <edmoore> and just take a look at it whenever you log something
[10:13] <jcoxon> fair enough
[10:39] <edmoore> jcoxon: so what's happeneing now?
[10:39] <edmoore> I just compiled my C++ program and it worked. Something odd is up.
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[11:11] <edmoore> jcoxon: ping when you get this
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[11:50] <jcoxon> ping: edmoore
[11:50] <jcoxon> yo
[11:50] <edmoore> yo
[11:51] <edmoore> just a random thing
[11:51] <jcoxon> shoot
[11:51] <edmoore> in other channels, the bot is really clever
[11:51] <jcoxon> yup
[11:51] <edmoore> you can leave messages for people with them for when that person comes online
[11:51] <jcoxon> but zeus isn't...
[11:51] <edmoore> and stuff
[11:51] <jcoxon> uhuh
[11:51] <edmoore> but....
[11:51] <edmoore> i mean that feature would be cool
[11:51] <edmoore> but
[11:52] <edmoore> in the spirit of me liking regex, I wanted to make an app that could take almost any kind of log file and make a kml out of it
[11:52] <jcoxon> okay
[11:52] <edmoore> could we get zeusbot to fire it up? so:
[11:52] <edmoore> !kml http://www.myurl/balloonflight/latestflightlog.txt
[11:52] <edmoore> zeusbot: I'm on it!
[11:53] <edmoore> wait for it to run
[11:53] <edmoore> then zeusbot: here is your kml http://someplace.com/latestflightlog.kml
[11:53] <jcoxon> yup
[11:53] <edmoore> so that means if you do it on here, anyone who's around can see it
[11:54] <jcoxon> not difficult at all
[11:54] <edmoore> there would also be a more conventional html interface to this app
[11:54] <jcoxon> was about to say
[11:54] <edmoore> but this way is a more 'share the excitement' way
[11:54] <jcoxon> eggdrop - the bot program is very scriptable, it can wait for the !kml file then run a script and upload it to the appropriate place
[11:54] <edmoore> that sounds rocking
[11:55] <jcoxon> all you need to do is make teh script that takes an input and then dumps an output
[11:55] <edmoore> infact, could this app run in my space on your server?
[11:55] <jcoxon> i'll attach it to zeusbot
[11:55] <edmoore> I've not written the app yet!
[11:55] <jcoxon> yes if i kept my server on :-)
[11:55] <edmoore> but actually in the mean time jcoxon
[11:55] <jcoxon> but i've been saving power by not running it
[11:55] <jcoxon> that said i have an account where zeusbot is run which you can access
[11:55] <edmoore> !predict EARS 1200 30km
[11:56] <edmoore> zeusbot: Here is your kml file
[11:56] <edmoore> to run the uni wyomying thing
[11:56] <edmoore> 'EARS' is a link to some co-ordinates in the script
[11:56] <edmoore> likewise 'CHURCHILL'
[11:56] <edmoore> say
[11:57] <edmoore> talk to me!
[11:57] <jcoxon> yup
[11:57] <jcoxon> can do that as well
[11:57] <jcoxon> just looking at the necessary source to do that
[11:58] <edmoore> oh ok awesome. I mean, wait till after exams and stuf
[11:58] <edmoore> but it'd be nice to make zeusbot work
[11:58] <jcoxon> me, wait till after exams pah
[11:58] <edmoore> and then !man would show all the stuff it can do
[11:59] <jcoxon> the reason i haven't added features is purely that he does his job pretty good
[12:00] <edmoore> and then if we get a fixed antenna on the eng department, we could give it its own bot and get it to print everything it receives to #highaltitude-nova6
[12:00] <edmoore> or #highaltitude-fhalp
[12:01] <edmoore> and zeus could keep logs of that too, maybe
[12:01] <edmoore> I'm having zeusbot idea diarrhea
[12:01] <edmoore> sorry
[12:01] <jcoxon> get scripting!
[12:02] <jcoxon> how are you planning to do regex? what language?
[12:04] <edmoore> C++?
[12:04] <edmoore> though this is hardly a time critical or large app
[12:04] <edmoore> so maybe something else
[12:04] <edmoore> and would save installing boost libraries on host machine
[12:04] <edmoore> I'll learn python or something
[12:04] <jcoxon> well c++ is not the best for regex
[12:04] <edmoore> Or... Haskell!
[12:04] <jcoxon> perl would be best
[12:04] <edmoore> I don't think regex has been ported to haskell
[12:05] <jcoxon> though i found an amazing little thing in ruby (it probably works in perl or python as well)
[12:05] <jcoxon> rcallsign, rtime, rlat, rlong, ralt, rspeed, rbearing = radio_last_line.chomp.split(/\s*\,\s*/)
[12:05] <edmoore> infact a script could probably do it
[12:05] <edmoore> awk or soemthing
[12:14] <jcoxon> bingo
[12:14] <jcoxon> worked out the necessary format to access the uni of wyoming predictor
[12:17] <edmoore> wicked awesome
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[12:54] <edmoore> yo
[12:54] <jcoxon> what freq is the radio?
[12:54] <edmoore> dunno what freq
[12:54] <jcoxon> oh
[12:54] <jcoxon> its it a radiometrix?
[12:54] <edmoore> yep
[12:54] <jcoxon> 4.650 probably
[13:01] <jcoxon> hehe more questions
[13:01] <jcoxon> baud rate and shift?
[13:03] <edmoore> jcoxon:
[13:04] <edmoore> dunno the answer to any of these, will ask next time
[13:04] <edmoore> but
[13:04] <edmoore> it's ascending at 500fps
[13:05] <jcoxon> what!
[13:05] <jcoxon> feet per sec?
[13:16] <edmoore> sorry
[13:16] <edmoore> fpm
[13:16] <edmoore> jcoxon: it's 50 baud, I know that much
[13:17] <edmoore> jcoxon: can you hear anything?
[13:17] <jcoxon> strangely yeah i can
[13:18] <edmoore> ok
[13:18] <edmoore> tell
[13:18] <edmoore> have asked th shift
[13:18] <edmoore> but no text back yet
[13:19] <jcoxon> definitely a single
[13:19] <jcoxon> signal*
[13:19] <jcoxon> but its at 434.650 with a shift of 425Hz
[13:19] <edmoore> yes
[13:19] <edmoore> reversed, ascii-7
[13:20] <edmoore> that's exactly correct
[13:20] <jcoxon> got it
[13:20] <edmoore> 434.650, 42hHz shift 50 baud reversed ascii-7
[13:20] <edmoore> ok
[13:20] <jcoxon> Badger 3517,12:20:28,4,52.2366,-0.040395,5318.07,5,0
[13:20] <jcoxon> Badger 3527,12:20:38,4,52.237,-
[13:20] <jcoxon> haha
[13:20] <edmoore> well tell me the data because Ian is being crap at texting
[13:20] <edmoore> hahahahaha
[13:20] <edmoore> ok this is just like being there
[13:20] <jcoxon> its perfect
[13:21] <jcoxon> Badger 3568,12:21:23,0,52.2386,-0.0423008,5426.29,6,0
[13:21] <edmoore> good!
[13:21] <edmoore> spent a while on that code
[13:21] <edmoore> bloody slow ascent rate though
[13:22] <edmoore> cutdown after 2.5h?
[13:22] <jcoxon> is it shaping? or just normal?
[13:22] <edmoore> normal
[13:22] <jcoxon> i'm on the whip antenna as well
[13:22] <jcoxon> in doors
[13:23] <jcoxon> have they underfilled it?
[13:24] <edmoore> yes
[13:24] <edmoore> basically
[13:24] <edmoore> they had enough gas for a 500g
[13:24] <jcoxon> where was it launched from?
[13:24] <edmoore> churchill
[13:24] <edmoore> but the 500 burst
[13:24] <jcoxon> oh dear
[13:24] <edmoore> so they put the rest of the tank into a 1.2kg
[13:24] <edmoore> not much was left
[13:24] <edmoore> so... slooooooow
[13:24] <edmoore> keep packeting me!
[13:25] <jcoxon> well its going the right way
[13:25] <jcoxon> Badger 3802,12:25:13,4,52.2476,-0.0502329,5832.19,6,0
[13:25] <jcoxon> what are the various fields?
[13:26] <edmoore> will tell you in a sec
[13:26] <edmoore> when fergus tells me
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[13:29] <jcoxon> i'm 83km from it
[13:30] <jcoxon> i assume its:
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[13:30] <edmoore> alt, time, lat, long
[13:30] <edmoore> dunno what that '4' is actually
[13:30] <jcoxon> thats new
[13:30] <jcoxon> the 4 has gone
[13:30] <edmoore> 6 could be external temp
[13:30] <edmoore> final one could be whether or not it's cutdown
[13:30] <edmoore> 0 or 1
[13:31] <jcoxon> whats after long?
[13:31] <jcoxon> Badger 4158,12:31:13,1,52.2584,-0.058023,6571.95,4,0
[13:31] <jcoxon> isn't that the alt?
[13:31] <edmoore> oh could be yes
[13:32] <jcoxon> could the first number be the cycle?
[13:32] <edmoore> yes possibly
[13:32] <edmoore> seconds it's been on or something
[13:32] <edmoore> yes
[13:32] <jcoxon> shall i email round hte list?
[13:33] <edmoore> seconds since reset, gps time, lat, lon, alt, no of sats , gps health status
[13:33] <edmoore> cutdown at 900 ticks
[13:33] <edmoore> yeah
[13:33] <edmoore> 9000 ticks*
[13:37] <jcoxon> its beginning to turn north
[13:37] <jcoxon> Badger 4505,12:36:58,3,52.2712,-0.060256,7282.47,6,0
[13:37] <edmoore> might make it to 15km
[13:37] <edmoore> if we're lucky
[13:37] <jcoxon> still its going well
[13:37] <jcoxon> and that radio is working excellently
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[13:44] <edmoore> !latestbadgerplease
[13:44] <edmoore> yeah it's just a bog standard radio
[13:44] <edmoore> radiometrix
[13:45] <edmoore> but with a decent piece of ali foil on fom for ground plane
[13:45] <edmoore> and the entenna itself in foam to keep it out straight
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[13:50] <edmoore> jcoxon: ping
[13:51] <jcoxon> yeah i'm working on something, one sec
[13:51] <jcoxon> Badger 5370,12:51:28,0,52.3064,-0.036409,9222.5,4,0
[13:57] <edmoore> see jcoxon if zuesbot was up and running :p
[13:59] <jcoxon> done
[13:59] <jcoxon> #highaltitude99
[13:59] <jcoxon> its reading the log file
[14:00] <jcoxon> crap
[14:00] <jcoxon> still a problem
[14:02] <jcoxon> the problem is that truetty doesn't update its log file very often
[14:06] <jcoxon> so you've got 3800 ticks and are at 11278m
[14:13] <edmoore> james this rocks
[14:13] <jcoxon> :-)
[14:14] <jcoxon> while i can't program very well i can hack solutions pretty quickly :-p
[14:14] <jcoxon> just wish truetty updated quicker - you could have nearly realtime
[14:14] <edmoore> genius
[14:15] <edmoore> see this is proper cool
[14:15] <edmoore> what we need is a pointing antenna that can do this
[14:15] <edmoore> all automatically
[14:15] <edmoore> i know i know. i must finish it
[14:17] <jcoxon> my MControl software i'm working on will do this
[14:17] <jcoxon> taking data from both the radio and gsm
[14:17] <jcoxon> and then upload it to natrium's tracker + to a irc channel
[14:20] <edmoore> brilliant
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[15:19] <jatkins> hi all
[15:19] <jcoxon> hey jatkins
[15:19] <edmoore> hi jatkins
[15:19] <jatkins> hi
[15:19] <jatkins> how's Nova 6 going?
[15:19] <jcoxon> tracking #highaltitude99
[15:19] <edmoore> jatkins, #highaltitude99
[15:19] <jatkins> thanks
[15:20] <jatkins> the gps should be done soon
[15:20] <jatkins> I've been doing it on and off for ages..
[15:20] <jcoxon> cool
[15:21] <jatkins> I got confused and was trying to use an external serial port
[15:22] <jatkins> i.e. another serial connection from the arduino to pc
[15:22] <jatkins> whereas it already has a usb which works in hyperterm
[15:22] <jatkins> - the usb for uploading scripts to the microcontroller
[15:22] <jatkins> I spent all that time so I can debug the gps NMEA strings when I get it working
[15:23] <jatkins> i.e. to see whether the arduino's receiving anything
[15:27] <edmoore> what doesn't kill you makes you stronger
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[17:05] <gordonjcp> yet another bloody channel to join
[17:05] <jatkins> lol
[17:05] <gordonjcp> why do I do this to myself?
[17:06] <jatkins> this is the usual one
[17:06] <jcoxon> haha
[17:06] <jatkins> hehehe
[17:06] <jatkins> jcoxon: will #highaltitude99 be used for all future flights or just for this one?
[17:06] <jcoxon> ummm
[17:07] <jcoxon> the reason why i used it was at first i was having to test the code
[17:07] <jcoxon> which would have annoyed everyone
[17:07] <jatkins> yeah, lol
[17:07] <jatkins> is there a freenode api or something
[17:07] <SpeedEvil> API?
[17:07] <jatkins> or do you just send http requests
[17:07] <jcoxon> no i hacked it into a python irc client i have
[17:07] <jatkins> Application programming interface
[17:07] <jatkins> ok cool
[17:07] <SpeedEvil> I know what API is.
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> ah
[17:08] <jcoxon> i was working on a AI - interfacing an alice bot to irc
[17:08] <jatkins> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interface
[17:08] <jcoxon> so i just changed the code a bit
[17:08] <jatkins> oh sorry
[17:08] <jatkins> ok
[17:10] <soneil> edmoore: that was fascinating. I've a funny feeling my wife may be after your blood in the hear future ;)
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[17:10] <edmoore> soneil: I hope so!
[17:11] <edmoore> but the pics are the best bit, I always think
[17:11] <soneil> yeah, I was just looking at the ones from nova1
[17:11] <edmoore> hallam is the mastermind behind nova1
[17:13] <hallam> well I did the electronics, Carl and Rob put a lot in as well
[17:13] <hallam> ed, is 1GB enough?
[17:14] <edmoore> hallam: probs
[17:14] <edmoore> dunno
[17:14] <edmoore> we can be selective
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> Does the camera have attitude sensors of some form for each frame?
[17:14] <edmoore> Also, big thanks to jcoxon for knocking up this bot from nothing in a matter of minutes
[17:15] <hallam> good effort
[17:15] <hallam> anyway congrats guys
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:15] <jatkins> yeah, thanks James! :)
[17:15] <hallam> I'll be back in 15 mins, have only eaten a single chocolate peanut today
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[17:16] <jatkins> hehe
[17:16] <edmoore> I forgot lunch
[17:19] <edmoore> right, I am leaving work (not got much done today, but the guys at work have all been watching eagerly) to go hope, I'll be back online in 20 mins or so. Thanks for your interest everyone, I'll be sure to announce when the pictures are available in the next few hours
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[17:21] <jcoxon> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:badger1.kml.zip?id=projects%3Abadger&cache=cache
[17:21] <jcoxon> latest kml
[17:23] <jcoxon> there are some mistakes but i can't be arsed to find them and fix them
[17:24] <soneil> appreciated :)
[17:27] <jcoxon> pah its too late to revise today :-p
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[17:37] <edmoore> just spoken to the recovery team - they have an sms telemetry: lat 52.6551, lon -0.398961, alt 126.563
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[17:38] <edmoore> oh my god!
[17:38] <edmoore> look where that is
[17:41] <jatkins> lol!
[17:41] <jatkins> hope it's ok!!
[17:42] <jatkins> is that a river?
[17:42] <jatkins> must be
[17:42] <jatkins> looked like a road from less zoom
[17:42] <jatkins> will it float?
[17:42] <jatkins> if it went in?
[17:43] <soneil> that looks pretty good access-wise. if they've missed the water & the power lines, that's neat
[17:43] <jatkins> yeah
[17:43] <jatkins> just hope it has missed it!
[17:44] <soneil> assuming the 126 meters is ASL, not off the floor lol
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[17:47] <soneil> edmoore: do you know how far out the chase team are?
[17:47] Hiena (n=Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) joined #highaltitude.
[17:47] <edmoore> i am guiding them in real time on the phone
[17:47] <jatkins> hi icez, Hiena
[17:47] <edmoore> they don't have gps
[17:47] <icez> hi
[17:48] <Hiena> Good evening!
[17:48] <edmoore> am steering them now, they're in tallintton
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> Don't have GPS?
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> Wacky
[17:48] <edmoore> dont
[17:48] <edmoore> it broke
[17:48] <soneil> edmoore: I'll keep out your way then :) thanks
[17:48] <icez> aww
[17:48] <icez> balloon went so high it bumped into the GPS sat? ;)
[17:48] <icez> :P
[17:48] <Hiena> edmoore, how much you accurancy?
[17:49] <Hiena> +r
[17:49] <soneil> if they're that close, google maps is probably going to be more use anyway
[17:49] <edmoore> will answer qs in 10 mins
[17:49] <edmoore> sorry for silence
[17:50] <soneil> Hiena: they were talking about +/- 20m in "up there", if that's any help
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> That's close - 10m from water
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> err - 10ft
[17:50] <soneil> altho that was more for altitude
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=%4052.6551,+-0.39896&ie=UTF8&ll=52.655045,-0.398981&spn=0.000527,0.001035&t=h&z=19&iwloc=addr
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> satellite image
[17:51] <edmoore> for those with google eartgh, they're where the powerlines cross the road
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> however, satellite imagery may be significantly off in some cases
[17:51] <Jos> im going to take a look
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> I can't see it on the satellite imagery when I zoom in.
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:52] <Jos> on the riverside
[17:52] <Jos> close to the powerlines
[17:53] <Jos> .. or on the power lines? x)
[17:53] <SpeedEvil> As to GPS. In good conditions, with non-DGPS recievers, +-5m is reasonable
[17:53] <soneil> does the box do anything that might help them? no "help, help it hurts" beepers or such ?
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[17:54] <hallam> argh no ed
[17:55] <icez> hard to get signals from the ground most of the time
[17:55] Action: SpeedEvil ponders theiving scum lurking on IRC channels to steal payloads.
[17:55] Action: icez is still clueless as to what they are doing
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[17:55] <icez> :P
[17:55] <Jos> if I lived in that little city tallington .. :P
[17:55] <edmoore> soneil: it has the gsm module which has a siren
[17:55] <edmoore> when they call it
[17:56] <hallam> cute
[17:56] <edmoore> I feel like I'm in the Matrix
[17:56] <edmoore> '200m on your left you should see a hedge. turn left at that hedge. no, your other left'
[17:56] <Jos> :P
[17:56] <hallam> we gotta get GPS telemetry on the chase cars too
[17:56] <edmoore> we normally do
[17:56] <hallam> flashing dots on the map and all that
[17:56] <soneil> great. so between that and the probability of still having the balloon, it should be into sore-thumb territory
[17:56] <edmoore> i normally have my satnav
[17:56] <hallam> are they close?
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> google imaging can be quite a large bit out.
[17:58] <Jos> how does it know when to send the SMS ?
[17:58] <soneil> I'd assume the ground makes quite a statement ?
[17:58] <edmoore> jos: altitude
[17:58] <Jos> yeah but how does it detect it
[17:58] <Jos> k
[17:58] <edmoore> it's very loud on their radio
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> constant altitude'd be a clue.
[17:58] <edmoore> i can here the chirping over the phone
[17:59] <hallam> you know, we really ought to register a copy of TrueTTY one of these days
[17:59] <edmoore> they have visual!
[17:59] <hallam> :D
[17:59] <Jos> :D
[17:59] <jcoxon> hallam, i was thinking that
[17:59] <soneil> I've no idea why I'm so excited
[18:00] <jcoxon> oh soneil its an exciting event - you should see a real launch
[18:00] <jcoxon> lots of fun
[18:00] <edmoore> breaking through weeds and hedge with yagi antenna....
[18:00] Action: SpeedEvil ties soneil onto several inflated balloons.
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> (Filled with irn-bru)
[18:00] <hallam> I have a very vivid memory of trying to point a yagi through the sunroof of (Ed's?) car while he was driving round a roundabout
[18:00] <soneil> I was about to complain, but the bru sold me
[18:01] <icez> who's recovering what right now?:P
[18:01] <edmoore> typin this live - balloon still attached sgredded
[18:01] <edmoore> no tangling
[18:01] <jcoxon> icez, there was a nova6/badger launch today
[18:01] <icez> oh
[18:01] <edmoore> all well
[18:01] <edmoore> ok
[18:01] <hallam> can't have been Ed I guess, he wasn't around then
[18:01] <hallam> hooray
[18:01] Action: hallam congratulates the CU crew
[18:01] <edmoore> pyro blew but didn't break completely
[18:02] <jcoxon> congrats edmoore
[18:02] <Jos> how long till we can see pics and the .klm file? :P
[18:02] <hallam> a couple hours probably
[18:03] <edmoore> hi
[18:03] <edmoore> ok
[18:03] <jcoxon> need mobile broadband
[18:03] <soneil> what are the advantages of a pyro cut vs something electromechanical ?
[18:03] <hallam> they're both unreliable but NASA uses the former
[18:03] <edmoore> yeah, they reckon 10 mins to post-mortem there, then they'll speed back, about 2 hours from now they should be online
[18:03] <Jos> how does that pyr obreak work ?
[18:03] <edmoore> *sih*
[18:04] <edmoore> i've told them there's a waiting audience!
[18:04] <hallam> Jos: badly
[18:04] <edmoore> Jos: it's a biro tube filled with gunpowder
[18:04] <edmoore> we put an electrical match in
[18:04] <edmoore> and then seal both ends with epoxy
[18:04] <edmoore> when we fire the match, it should split in two
[18:05] <edmoore> all I'm saying is, thsi wasn't one of the ones i built :p
[18:05] <icez> lol
[18:06] <edmoore> soneil: my gut feeling is that pyros are more reliable. I'll ve very intefrested to see how they did this one uch that it didn't work
[18:06] <Jos> not enough gunpowder? :P
[18:06] <SpeedEvil> Two matches in series would be better.
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[18:07] <jcoxon> right i better be off
[18:07] <jcoxon> cya all
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[18:07] <soneil> I guess if there's a weak point in the biro, they have a chance on an uneven burn
[18:07] <hallam> sometime last year we spent a few days trying to make really reliable ones, I'd thought we had it cracke
[18:08] <hallam> trouble with biro is it remelting and gluing itself back together, I think
[18:08] <hallam> I wonder where they're getting the gunpowder
[18:08] <Jos> you can make it yourself :p
[18:09] <Jos> or take it out some fireworks
[18:10] <gordonjcp> hallam: what's truetty?
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> -20C about 10 years ago
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> oops
[18:10] <icez> "a program for amateur radio digital communications via a sound card."
[18:11] <hallam> it's a PC software radio modem
[18:12] <hallam> yeah originally we were taking it out of fireworks but it wasn't very good quality
[18:12] <hallam> unreliable burn rate and a tendency to get damp
[18:12] <edmoore> soneil: I've been making them out of acrylic tubing recently
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> You can get rocket engine igniters, which may be of use.
[18:12] <hallam> does that shatter better?
[18:13] <hallam> Estes igniters are crap crap crap
[18:13] <edmoore> with a score in the circumference to ensure hoop failure rather than longitudinal
[18:13] <hallam> the electric matches for bigger rockets are much better
[18:13] <edmoore> they've not failed yet
[18:13] <hallam> edmoore: nice.
[18:13] <edmoore> hallam: it shatters wonderfully
[18:14] <edmoore> lots of little shards
[18:14] <hallam> fab
[18:14] <hallam> low temperature performance? (one would assume better)
[18:14] <edmoore> just more expensive than biro tube. but worth it to stop the whole lot drifting out to sea
[18:14] <edmoore> hallam: well it's well below its glass transition temp so I assume fine
[18:14] <edmoore> don't have any numbers tho
[18:16] <soneil> does anyone have an audio recording of what comes out of the radio? I'm nosey to see if the software I already has will do the trick
[18:17] <edmoore> hrm...
[18:17] <edmoore> hallam: do you have one?
[18:17] <soneil> I know, not the best time for it, but you guys have got me seriously interested ;)
[18:17] <hallam> I think I had one two laptops ago
[18:17] <edmoore> soneil: if there's not one to hand we'll save a few telem packet audios for you and send them
[18:18] <soneil> great .. I'll stick around :)
[18:18] <edmoore> can't wait to see these pics
[18:18] <edmoore> chaps, I warn you that the pics might be a bit corporate
[18:18] <edmoore> we have some sponsors who want their logo in a cool pic
[18:18] <hallam> oh are there sponsor logos everywhere?
[18:18] <hallam> nice
[18:18] <hallam> I hope Madsen is pleased
[18:19] <edmoore> normally we're a bit more pure as human beings, but not on this occasion
[18:19] <edmoore> yeah
[18:19] <edmoore> he'll love it
[18:20] <edmoore> soneil: do you have something in mind for a flight computer?
[18:20] <soneil> I've a surplus of arduino variants, so probably something along those lines to start with
[18:20] <edmoore> Oh I guess we could tell you GPS rule #1 now - not all gps's are created equal, most cut out at 60000ft
[18:21] <edmoore> it's an export restriction to stop them being used in missiles - 515m/s and 60000 feet = cut out
[18:21] <edmoore> however most manufacturers seem to plump for OR rather than AND
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> ITARiffic.
[18:21] <edmoore> exactly
[18:21] <hallam> technically not ITAR but COCOM
[18:21] <edmoore> however, a few impliment AND
[18:21] <edmoore> included the Lassen iQ
[18:21] <hallam> if it were ITAR it'd be "no GPS for anyone not born and raised in Texas"
[18:22] <edmoore> which is also nice for many other reasons
[18:22] <edmoore> it's the perfect gps for this kinda stuff, I think. And it's cheap from sparkfun.
[18:22] <hallam> but uh if you're interested in another one which doesn't cut out at 60k, I have a whole pile of GPS-MS1E that I need to get rid of
[18:23] <edmoore> haha
[18:24] <soneil> now I'm bummed that I just put in an order with sparkfun <24hrs ago
[18:24] <edmoore> eeek, sparkfun have a new look
[18:26] <jatkins> edmoore: got a few radio qns
[18:26] <jatkins> if that's ok
[18:26] <edmoore> fire away
[18:26] <jatkins> I'll be using morse on my first flight
[18:26] <jatkins> ..and I think I was talking to it about you a while back
[18:26] <jatkins> but anyway, about the receiving
[18:27] <jatkins> is there a way to take the received signal straight to a microcontroller or PC rather than have it output as audio
[18:27] <jatkins> without recognition software, etc.
[18:27] <jatkins> basically I want to setup an automatic telemetry system
[18:27] <hallam> sort of, but it's pretty much not worth it
[18:28] <hallam> easiest reliable way is to use the audio and have TrueTTY interpret it
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[18:28] <jatkins> ok
[18:28] <hallam> you can interface in software to TrueTTY so your own telemetry program can do what it wants with the data
[18:28] <edmoore> you'd need some kind of software defined radio - definitely a more complex thing to do
[18:28] <jatkins> so it's not possible to take a voltage from the receiver before it goes to the audio oscillator
[18:28] <edmoore> jatkins: that is what james do on #99
[18:28] <jatkins> and then have that wired to a GPIO on an arduino
[18:29] <jatkins> then send to pc via rs-232
[18:29] <edmoore> jatkins: the receiver actually 'gets' audio
[18:29] <jatkins> oh ok
[18:29] <edmoore> it doesn't convert a voltage to audio
[18:29] <jatkins> ok
[18:29] <edmoore> it extracts audio from a carrier
[18:29] <hallam> it's possible, but to do it in a way that gives you higher quality data / less errors / less noise than the audio is a serious undertaking
[18:29] <jatkins> ok, thanks
[18:29] <edmoore> truetty is a good program
[18:29] <edmoore> reliable
[18:29] <jatkins> ok, I'll have a look
[18:29] <jatkins> good :)
[18:29] <edmoore> except when we leave it receiving to go to the pub
[18:29] <hallam> and IMO not worth it for the couple dB better signal you would get
[18:30] <jatkins> lol
[18:30] <edmoore> and it crashes
[18:30] <jatkins> ah
[18:30] <edmoore> not looking at anyone in particular
[18:30] <hallam> that was a few versions ago though
[18:30] <jatkins> lol
[18:30] <jatkins> is rtty a lot harder to implement than morse?
[18:30] <hallam> on the TX side?
[18:30] <jatkins> on both the Tx and Rx side of things
[18:30] <hallam> not really, possibly easier
[18:30] <hallam> on the RX side it's a lot easier
[18:30] <jatkins> sweet
[18:30] <edmoore> on the recuever it's easier
[18:30] <jatkins> great
[18:30] <edmoore> gosh, can't type
[18:31] <jatkins> lol :D
[18:31] <hallam> if your controller has a UART you can even just feed the TX directly into an NTX2 transmitter
[18:31] <hallam> as long as you keep the baud rate really slow, like 50
[18:31] <jatkins> ok
[18:31] <jatkins> bps?
[18:31] <hallam> yes
[18:31] <jatkins> ok
[18:31] <jatkins> http://flickr.com/photos/joshatkins/2593403476/
[18:31] <jatkins> it's a very low-res pic
[18:31] <hallam> you can potentially get better results by pulse-shaping the signal with a DAC, but quick-and-dirty will work with just the TX
[18:31] <jatkins> ok
[18:31] <edmoore> we didn't pulse-shape today
[18:32] <edmoore> and we got amazing signal
[18:32] <jatkins> cool
[18:32] <jatkins> what is pulse shaping?
[18:32] <hallam> ed: you did level-shift though, presumably?
[18:32] <edmoore> i think a good mechanical antenna implimentation is as importnt as anything
[18:32] <edmoore> hallam: we used the DAC on the arm
[18:32] <jatkins> ok
[18:32] <hallam> ok
[18:32] <hallam> jatkins: do you know what a serial signal looks like?
[18:32] <jatkins> nope
[18:32] <jatkins> as in rs-232?
[18:33] <hallam> yes
[18:33] <jatkins> ok
[18:33] <jatkins> no
[18:33] <jatkins> well
[18:33] <jatkins> I guess it's this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rs232_oscilloscope_trace.jpg
[18:33] <jatkins> but I don't really understand it
[18:33] <hallam> ok
[18:33] <hallam> it's pretty simple
[18:33] <jatkins> no wait, I do
[18:33] <jatkins> it's just an alternating voltage
[18:34] <hallam> there are two voltages, one represents 1 and the other represents 0
[18:34] <jatkins> yeah
[18:34] <jatkins> like high and low
[18:34] <jatkins> +- 5V isn't it?
[18:34] <edmoore> bingo
[18:34] <hallam> in the idle state (not sending anything) the line is at the voltage representing 1
[18:34] <jatkins> oh cool
[18:34] <jatkins> ok
[18:34] <hallam> the actual voltages differ depending on the application
[18:34] <jatkins> yeah
[18:34] <jatkins> I think pc serial is +-12 or something
[18:34] <hallam> to send a byte, the transmitter outputs the voltage representing 0 for one bit period, this is the start bit
[18:35] <hallam> yes you got it, I'll explain that in a minute
[18:35] <jatkins> ok
[18:35] <hallam> then it sends the least significant bit of the data byte
[18:35] <hallam> know what least significant means?
[18:35] <jatkins> no
[18:36] <hallam> consider a decimal number, 7596
[18:36] <hallam> the 6 is the "units"
[18:36] <hallam> that's the least significant digit
[18:36] <jatkins> yep
[18:36] <jatkins> ok
[18:36] <hallam> the 9 is the tens, blah blah the 7 is the most significant digit
[18:36] <jatkins> yeah
[18:36] <jatkins> ok
[18:36] <hallam> in binary it's the same, so for 11011000 the LSB is 0 and the MSB is 1
[18:36] <jatkins> ok
[18:36] <jatkins> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Least_significant_bit.svg
[18:36] <hallam> so the transmitter sends the byte, LSB first
[18:37] <jatkins> ok
[18:37] <hallam> with each bit lasting one bit period
[18:37] <jatkins> ok
[18:37] <hallam> the baud rate is the number of bit periods per second
[18:37] <hallam> so at 50 baud it would be 20ms per bit
[18:37] <jatkins> yeah
[18:37] <edmoore> so for nova6, that was 0.02 secs per bit
[18:37] <hallam> after it's sent the byte it sends a stop bit, which is always 1
[18:38] <hallam> then if it has no more bytes to send, the line is idle again, i.e. it just stays at 1
[18:38] <jatkins> ok
[18:38] <hallam> or if there's more data to send, it sends the start bit again straight away and repeats the whole procedure
[18:38] <jatkins> ok
[18:39] <edmoore> hallam: as an asside, no freq shifting was needed on the radio that flight - it was wrapped in several layers of foam and space blanket. seemed to keep it rock solid.
[18:39] <hallam> the start and stop bits are important because they let the receiver stay synchronised to the transmitter, even if the clock on the receiver and transmitter aren't quite the same
[18:39] <hallam> ed: good to know
[18:39] <jatkins> ok
[18:39] <soneil> edmoore: the ntx2 is what you just flew?
[18:39] <jatkins> thanks
[18:39] <edmoore> soneil: correct
[18:39] <hallam> i.e. the transmitter might have a bit period of .020001 seconds and the receiver might be 0.01997
[18:40] <edmoore> previously we've had to keep tuning the radio a bit to keep track of it, we think because of temperature
[18:40] <soneil> taking a note of that one too then, because that was pretty impressive
[18:40] <hallam> as long as the difference in the clocks is less than about 5% it will work fine
[18:40] <edmoore> keep it warm. works like a charm
[18:40] <hallam> jatkins: you following so far?
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[18:40] <jatkins> think so
[18:41] <hallam> as I mentioned the signals 1 and 0 are represented by different voltages on the wire
[18:41] <jatkins> I don't get the 50 baud = 20 ms/bit though
[18:41] <jatkins> yep
[18:41] <jatkins> get that
[18:41] <edmoore> soneil: we like them very much here, they are very reliable
[18:41] <hallam> 50 baud means 50 bit periods per second
[18:41] <jatkins> ok
[18:41] <hallam> 1/50 = 0.020 seconds = 20 milliseconds
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[18:42] <jatkins> a bit period is just the time to send one bit?
[18:42] <hallam> exactly
[18:42] <jatkins> ok
[18:42] <jatkins> got it
[18:42] <hallam> now remember a byte is 8 data bits but each byte also requires one start bit and one stop bit
[18:42] <hallam> so each byte actually takes 10 bit periods to send
[18:42] <jatkins> ok
[18:42] <hallam> so at 50 baud you can send 5 bytes per second
[18:43] <jatkins> oh ok, got it
[18:43] <hallam> which is kinda slow, you can probably type faster than that, so you have to keep the telemetry messages short
[18:43] <jatkins> so it's just 10x bits per second
[18:43] <hallam> bytes/sec = 0.1 * bits/sec
[18:43] <jatkins> yeah
[18:43] <hallam> anyway back to the voltages
[18:43] <jatkins> ok
[18:44] <edmoore> hallam: nova2 was 300baud iirc?
[18:44] <edmoore> or was that 4?
[18:44] <hallam> I think nova2 was 50 baud
[18:44] <hallam> 4 was 300, or 300 alternating with 50
[18:44] <hallam> RS232 is a standard that defines 0 to be represented by +12 volts and 1 to be represented by -12 volts
[18:45] <hallam> TTL, on the other hand, which is what your arduino outputs, is typically 0=0V and 1=+5V
[18:45] <jatkins> yeah
[18:45] <hallam> or possibly 3.3V instead of 5
[18:45] <hallam> depending on what voltage you run the arduino on
[18:45] <jatkins> yeah
[18:45] <jatkins> it's on usb at the moment
[18:45] <jatkins> I think it's 3.3 V
[18:46] <hallam> ok so there's a USB chip which takes the TTL signal and does a bunch of USB magic with it
[18:46] <jatkins> yep
[18:46] <hallam> if you wanted to connect the arduino directly to an old-style PC serial port you'd have to use a level converter like the MAX232 which converts it to RS232 voltages
[18:46] <edmoore> hallam: http://groups.google.com/group/n-prize
[18:46] <jatkins> oh, ok
[18:46] <jatkins> that's the problem I was running into
[18:47] <jatkins> I was completely obvlivous to the fact that I could use the usb connection in hyperterm
[18:47] <hallam> note also that not only is the voltage "larger", but the polarity is reversed on RS232
[18:47] <hallam> anyway this is the 21st century and it's becoming increasinly unlikely that you'll actually need to use RS232 for anything
[18:47] <jatkins> ..and was trying to use the arduino TTL serial Tx with my pc's serial port at +-12V
[18:47] <jatkins> lol
[18:47] <edmoore> jatkins: we've all been there.
[18:47] <hallam> yup
[18:47] <jatkins> :)
[18:48] <edmoore> that you're there at 13 means you have a massive headstart on us
[18:48] <jatkins> well, got it figured eventually
[18:48] <jatkins> 14 now :)
[18:48] <jatkins> April 15
[18:48] SpeedEvil (n=fjjfjfj@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
[18:48] <jatkins> (94)
[18:48] <edmoore> oh cool. congraturaltions
[18:48] <jatkins> thanks
[18:48] <hallam> hehe
[18:48] <edmoore> or whatever it is one says
[18:48] <hallam> "get off my lawn"?
[18:48] <jatkins> :D
[18:48] <jatkins> lol
[18:48] <hallam> so the NTX2 transmitter is a clever little gadget
[18:49] <jatkins> that's from radiometrix?
[18:49] <hallam> yes
[18:49] <jatkins> ok
[18:49] <hallam> it's a radio transmitter, if you just give it power and pull the enable pin high, it will output a carrier wave on 434.650MHz
[18:49] <hallam> just a pure sine wave
[18:49] <jatkins> cool
[18:49] <hallam> it has a TX pin
[18:50] <jatkins> so pwr +, pwr -, tx, tx gnd
[18:50] <jatkins> is that it?
[18:50] <hallam> pretty much
[18:50] <hallam> the voltage on the TX pin adjustst the frequency of the carrier wave
[18:50] <jatkins> cool
[18:50] <jatkins> ok
[18:50] <hallam> just very very slightly
[18:50] <hallam> it has a range of something like 0 to 2.6V
[18:50] <jatkins> still within 434 MHz?
[18:50] <hallam> yes
[18:50] <jatkins> ok
[18:50] <jatkins> cool
[18:50] <hallam> so it can vary the carrier freq by about 5kHz
[18:50] <jatkins> ok
[18:51] <hallam> if you give it more than 2.6V it has the same effect as giving it 2.6V
[18:51] <hallam> (the 2.6 is from memory but it's something close to that)
[18:51] <hallam> so 0V would make it output, say, 434.647MHz and 2.6V would make it output 434.652MHz
[18:51] <jatkins> ok
[18:52] <hallam> what we want to do is use one frequency to represent binary 0 and another frequency to represent binary 1
[18:52] <hallam> that's called frequency-shift keying
[18:52] <jatkins> ok
[18:52] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[18:52] <hallam> for various reasons it works better if the frequencies are a little closer than that 5kHz difference
[18:53] <jatkins> ok
[18:53] <hallam> in the flight today they were using a difference of about 425Hz, which works well
[18:53] <jatkins> ok
[18:54] <hallam> so the upshot is, you want to get a signal into the NTX2 that is about 1V for binary 0 and 1.2V for binary 1
[18:54] <jatkins> ok
[18:54] <hallam> there are a number of ways to do that
[18:54] <jatkins> ok
[18:54] <jatkins> gpio?
[18:55] <hallam> a GPIO would be 0V or 3.3V
[18:55] <hallam> you can take the output of the TX pin from the arduino's UART, which is 0V and 3.3V, and use some kind of analog circuit to shift it to 1 and 1.2V
[18:55] <soneil> sounds like a good job for the analogue pins on the arduino (it'll provide 255 steps between 0 and Vin)
[18:55] <hallam> the arduino has an analog output? I didn't know that
[18:55] <jatkins> oh ok
[18:55] <jatkins> yep
[18:55] <hallam> so you can use that
[18:55] <hallam> but
[18:56] <hallam> the UART was very convenient because it did all those things we talked about with the timing and the start and stop bits for you
[18:56] <jatkins> http://www.arduino.cc/en/Reference/AnalogWrite
[18:56] <jatkins> ok
[18:56] <hallam> if you use the analog output you have to do that yourself
[18:56] <hallam> furthermore
[18:56] <hallam> from that link it looks like it's not a true analog output
[18:56] <jatkins> oh ok
[18:56] <hallam> but it approximates one using pulse-width modulation (look that up sometime)
[18:56] <jatkins> ok
[18:57] <hallam> meaning you'd need additional analog filtering
[18:57] <jatkins> is that complicated?
[18:57] <hallam> so my recommendation would be to use the UART, with an analog circuit to shift the levels
[18:57] <jatkins> ok
[18:57] <edmoore> jatkins: how are you reading the gps?
[18:57] <jatkins> from the receiver?
[18:57] <jatkins> rs-232
[18:58] <hallam> ok I have to go to a meeting, I'll be back later
[18:58] <jatkins> ok cya
[18:58] <jatkins> thanks for explaining
[18:58] <hallam> you're welcome
[18:58] <jatkins> :)
[18:58] <hallam> ed can maybe help you figure out the level shift circuit (just a few resistors and maybe zener diodes I think)
[18:59] <hallam> or I can later
[18:59] <jatkins> ok
[18:59] Nick change: hallam -> hallam|away
[19:00] <jatkins> edmoore: so with rtty the nmea strings are sent in binary
[19:00] <jatkins> ?
[19:00] <edmoore> no, we send ascii over rtty
[19:01] <jatkins> I mean to the transmitter
[19:01] <jatkins> so the transmitter will transmit ascii
[19:01] <jatkins> but the communication from the arduino to transmitter will be binary?
[19:02] <edmoore> oh yes
[19:03] <jatkins> ok
[19:03] <edmoore> well the transmitter transmits one of two frequencied, and the soundcard gets one of two frequencies, and truetty gets one of two prefencied, and then decodes them
[19:03] <jatkins> so it's like morse code just binary instead of the nmea in it's original form - decimial?
[19:04] <jatkins> ok
[19:04] <edmoore> and you tell the program that it's rtty, and it then knows how to decode that
[19:04] <edmoore> so just like morse
[19:04] <edmoore> ... _ _ _ ... is meaningless to me
[19:04] <edmoore> but if i have a table I can look up, I can see that that is SOS
[19:05] <jatkins> ok
[19:06] <jatkins> how different is rtty to morse on the Rx side?
[19:06] <edmoore> well rtty encodes information as either a high frequency or a low frequency
[19:06] <edmoore> for 1 or 0
[19:06] <jatkins> ok
[19:06] <edmoore> morse encodes stuff with different lengths of pulses
[19:06] <jatkins> ok
[19:07] <edmoore> so dit and dar are like 1 and 0
[19:07] <jatkins> yep
[19:07] <jatkins> ok
[19:08] <edmoore> and ontop of those two methods (change freq or changing pulse length) you then have different ways of encoding information
[19:08] <jatkins> ok
[19:08] <edmoore> So to send the letter 'A' (capital a) I go to an ascii look-up table
[19:08] <edmoore> http://www.neurophys.wisc.edu/comp/docs/ascii/ascii-printable.html
[19:09] <soneil> any recommendations on a receiver that'll pick that up? ssb on vhf isn't so commonplace
[19:09] <edmoore> and I find the 'A', and see that the corresponding binary is 01000001
[19:09] <edmoore> we do this because we can't send 'A', but we can send a 1 or a 0 (in the form of higher and lower frequencies.
[19:09] <hallam|away> soneil: you'll struggle to find one for much less than $300
[19:10] <jatkins> ok
[19:10] <edmoore> So ascii is a way of encoding the letters human beings use to communicate, into the binary that computers use to communicate
[19:10] <jatkins> yeah
[19:10] <soneil> yeah, that's why I was looking for something a bit more wideband than james' 70cm rig. that's a bit too specialized for me to drop too much cash on
[19:10] <edmoore> so if we want to send 'A', we actually have to send 01000001
[19:11] <jatkins> ok
[19:11] <edmoore> soneil: it's made the biggest difference for us with balloon flights - that Yaesu receiver
[19:12] <edmoore> we struggled with other scanners but telemetry has always just worked with that.
[19:12] <soneil> that'd push me to go for a license so I could get some use out of the rest of the time tho =x
[19:12] <edmoore> soneil: go on :)
[19:12] <soneil> the wife's really gonna start hating this lol
[19:12] <icez> :p
[19:13] <hallam|away> soneil: The ICOM IC-R20 is wideband and works decently for 70cm telemetry, just not as well as the Yaesu
[19:15] <edmoore> jatkins: so has henry explained, the pin to the radiometrix then has to output, to send the 'A', 0 for 20ms (because the start bit is a 0, always) then the 8 data bits - so 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, each one lasting 20ms, then the stop bit, which is a 1, and it stays there until the next byte come along to be transmitted
[19:15] <edmoore> just got a call from fergus
[19:15] <edmoore> he is excited about the photos
[19:15] <soneil> tease!
[19:16] <edmoore> i really want them to hurry up
[19:16] <edmoore> then i can drool
[19:16] <edmoore> then go to the pub and have a beer
[19:16] <edmoore> maybe with laptop to show Sammi, who doesn't beleive that I am a geek
[19:16] <edmoore> she calims it's a cover
[19:17] <jatkins> edmoore: yeah, I think I get it now
[19:17] <jatkins> lol
[19:17] <jatkins> when will they be uploaded?
[19:17] <edmoore> they're on the motorwat
[19:17] <edmoore> way*
[19:17] <edmoore> they'll upload as soon as they get to cam
[19:17] <edmoore> when 'fnoble' comes online, start to get excited
[19:18] <soneil> jatkins: if it's not rude to ask, what part of the world are you in?
[19:18] <jatkins> UK
[19:18] <jatkins> Hampshire
[19:19] <jatkins> you?
[19:19] <soneil> nowhere close then heh
[19:19] <jatkins> lol
[19:19] <soneil> west coast of ireland
[19:19] <jatkins> ok
[19:19] <jatkins> cool
[19:19] <soneil> not really .. it makes the weather in the UK look good:/
[19:19] <hallam|away> west coasts are good for ballooning though
[19:20] <soneil> yeah, that's what ed told me. I was worried about being this close to a *very* big pond, but he explaned otherwise
[19:20] <jatkins> lol
[19:20] <icez> :p
[19:21] <jatkins> well I'm close enough to the coast for it not to be a good idea to launch from were I am
[19:21] <icez> worse that could happen at my place is ending up in a pond of cactus ;)
[19:21] <jatkins> lol
[19:26] <edmoore> hallam|away: I have just finished a dual deployment parachute
[19:26] <hallam|away> business or pleasure?
[19:26] <edmoore> fairly conventional, a drogue which deploys a main via a deployment bag
[19:26] <edmoore> oh pleasure
[19:26] <jatkins> g2g now
[19:26] <edmoore> don't use deployment bags at work
[19:26] <edmoore> cya jatkins
[19:26] <hallam|away> bye, good luck
[19:27] <jatkins> thanks edmoore, hallam
[19:27] <jatkins> thanks!
[19:27] <jatkins> thanks soneil
[19:27] <edmoore> I'd like to test it on a forthcoming badger
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[19:27] <edmoore> we're about to start on the next pcb, which fergus informs me (very firmly) will fix everything wrong with v1 and add the radiometrix, and nothing else
[19:27] <edmoore> no intertial stuff
[19:28] <edmoore> to prevent second system syndrome
[19:28] <hallam|away> sounds good
[19:28] <hallam|away> is there any "market" for a true minimal tracker?
[19:28] <edmoore> might see if anyone wants any of these badger boards
[19:28] <edmoore> lol
[19:28] <edmoore> both had the same idea
[19:28] <edmoore> though you could go more minimal than badger
[19:29] <hallam|away> NTX2+GPS+PIC+battery?
[19:29] <hallam|away> yeah I mean something barely larger than the footprint of the NTX2
[19:29] <edmoore> ntx2 + gm863 + avr + battery?
[19:29] <hallam|away> I thought the GPS in the gm863 was no good
[19:29] <edmoore> not above 24km
[19:30] <edmoore> but i would have thought this would be more of a backup
[19:30] <hallam|away> yeah
[19:30] <edmoore> or maybe the size of a double AA holder
[19:30] <edmoore> stick it on the back of one
[19:31] <hallam|away> I'd prefer LiPo for something like that
[19:31] <hallam|away> use and reuse and not maintain
[19:31] <hallam|away> but is it worth my effort to build one?
[19:32] <edmoore> probs not
[19:32] <edmoore> i'd have thought there'd be more market for something with sms
[19:32] <icez> have you guys heard about openmoko?
[19:32] <hallam|away> maybe for rocket 1st stage
[19:32] <edmoore> the phone that never was?
[19:33] <icez> well it is now :P
[19:33] <edmoore> the rocket first stage will need something like that
[19:33] <edmoore> maybe with an accelerometer
[19:34] <icez> external GPS and linux/wifi on it, with plenty of storage space too
[19:34] <icez> seems like it could be a good flight computer :P
[19:35] <hallam|away> could do
[19:35] <hallam|away> concerns: 1. expensive if you drop it in the drink, 2. temperature tolerance on capacitors
[19:35] <icez> true :P
[19:35] <hallam|away> a bunch of commercial off-the-shelf things use cheap ceramics which are wonderful above 0 C and terrible below -10
[19:36] <hallam|away> it's a real bugger
[19:36] <icez> i wonder what the national weather service uses
[19:37] <icez> they don't seem to care much about their balloons
[19:37] <hallam|away> IIRC they use LORAN doppler
[19:37] <hallam|away> so they don't even measure position, just velocity
[19:37] <hallam|away> might not have a microcontroller at all
[19:37] <icez> yeah
[19:37] <icez> they're switching to GPS suposedly
[19:38] <hallam|away> they have the budget to spend a couple hundred $ on the electronics per balloon though
[19:38] <icez> of course :P
[19:38] <icez> that's about 60000$ a day
[19:39] <icez> and they only recover 20% of all the balloons launched
[19:39] <hallam|away> I'm surprised it's that high
[19:39] <edmoore> icez: buy one and play http://www.bullnet.co.uk/shops/test/totex.htm
[19:39] <hallam|away> is that from people handing them in?
[19:39] <icez> yeah
[19:39] <icez> it comes with a prepaid mail envelope ;)
[19:39] <hallam|away> hehe
[19:40] <hallam|away> ed: huh, even if that's at a pretty good surplus discount maybe the electronics are cheaper than I thought
[19:40] <edmoore> hallam|away: nova6 payload weight was 1.2kg
[19:40] <edmoore> sunstantial
[19:40] <hallam|away> definitely
[19:41] <hallam|away> what was in it?
[19:41] <edmoore> badger, 2 cameras, bits stuck on an arm infront of camera
[19:41] <edmoore> foam and stuff
[19:41] <hallam|away> which cameras? batteries?
[19:42] <edmoore> dunno lipo
[19:42] <edmoore> i think some premiers
[19:42] <edmoore> nova2 was about that weight wasn't it?
[19:42] <hallam|away> something like that
[19:43] <edmoore> have your heard about atlas?
[19:43] <hallam|away> no?
[19:43] <edmoore> james and ferg and steve and I, trying to get the all time alt record
[19:43] <edmoore> for latex
[19:43] <edmoore> aiming to launch a newer version badger to 40km
[19:43] <edmoore> 150g payload
[19:44] <edmoore> 1.5 or 2kg balloon
[19:44] <edmoore> and about 180g nozzle lift
[19:44] <hallam|away> do you plan to get it back?
[19:44] <edmoore> yep
[19:44] <edmoore> gonna have to pick a heck of a day to launch
[19:44] <hallam|away> day trip to France
[19:45] <edmoore> and also maybe a second balloon, say a higherly filled 500, to yank it above the js
[19:45] <edmoore> then be cut away
[19:45] <hallam|away> ok
[19:45] <hallam|away> sounds fun
[19:45] Nick change: hallam|away -> hallam|dullmeeti
[19:45] <edmoore> payload box will be one of those gu icecream tubs
[19:45] <edmoore> what is the metting about?
[19:45] <hallam|dullmeeti> they're fantastic aren't they
[19:45] <edmoore> meeting*
[19:46] <edmoore> they really are
[19:46] <hallam|dullmeeti> 16.83 (student satellite to moon)
[19:46] <edmoore> cover that in space balnket and we're sorted
[19:46] <hallam|dullmeeti> has anyone asked Gu for sponsorship yet
[19:46] <hallam|dullmeeti> does space blanket really make a difference?
[19:46] <edmoore> will you get a sattelite to the moon?
[19:46] <hallam|dullmeeti> I put the odds of launching at about 10%
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[19:46] <edmoore> yeah - most of the heat loss at higher alts seems to be radiative
[19:46] <fnoble> hello
[19:46] <edmoore> hello!!!!!!!!!!
[19:46] <fnoble> now you will have to be patient
[19:46] <edmoore> ok
[19:46] <hallam|dullmeeti> hey hey hey
[19:47] <edmoore> hallam, get the de4tails of the sapce
[19:47] <fnoble> iain is selecting the best of the photos
[19:47] <hallam|dullmeeti> ok coming up
[19:47] <edmoore> do we have a gallery generation tool?
[19:47] <edmoore> a la nova1?
[19:47] <fnoble> was just going to put them on the server
[19:47] <edmoore> well if there's a thumbnailathingamer we should use it
[19:47] <fnoble> managed to get the full logs off, with a bit of corruption, but mainly ok
[19:48] <fnoble> well, ill dump them on a folder on the cusf webspace
[19:48] <fnoble> we can work it out from there
[19:48] <edmoore> ok, go
[19:48] <edmoore> if we have the sapce
[19:48] <edmoore> space*
[19:48] <fnoble> man the photos are sweet
[19:48] <edmoore> hurryup!!!
[19:48] <edmoore> i'll sshing in now
[19:48] <fnoble> also the temperature inside the case sayed at a toasty 31.5 degrees the whole flight
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[19:49] <edmoore> :)
[19:49] <edmoore> warm boxes rule
[19:49] <hallam|dullmeeti> ferg, check pm, I have 1.5GB for space for you
[19:49] <hallam|dullmeeti> on a fast server
[19:49] <fnoble> ok
[19:49] <edmoore> go go go!
[19:50] <hallam|dullmeeti> ferg, was the temperature suspiciously constant or does it look legit?
[19:50] <edmoore> yes was just thinking that
[19:50] <fnoble> ill need to look closer the log is 1.7mb
[19:50] <fnoble> too much to skim through by hand
[19:50] <fnoble> but the box was SERIOUSLY insulated
[19:51] <hallam|dullmeeti> nice
[19:51] <fnoble> air tight, maybe 5 layers of space blanket and laods of foam
[19:52] <edmoore> fnoble: how's the upload?
[19:53] <jnd> so you didnt have external temp sensor?
[19:53] Nick change: hallam|dullmeeti -> hallam
[19:54] <edmoore> jnd nipe
[19:54] <edmoore> nope*
[19:54] <jnd> should be next time :)
[19:54] <hallam> if it's really well insulated you might have to worry about too much heat once it hits vacuum
[19:54] <fnoble> sorry, rob has to dash so he was/is checking email
[19:54] <edmoore> aaaaaargh
[19:54] <edmoore> you're enjoying this
[19:54] <hallam> congrats to all of you :)
[19:54] <fnoble> ill upload a taster
[19:55] <fnoble> thanks
[19:55] <edmoore> upload all of the selected ones. cmon!
[19:55] <jnd> I want to see some graphs
[19:55] <edmoore> jnd: there's a 1.7MB log file for your analytical pleasure
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[19:58] <fnoble> should i just put them streight on the cusf webspace though
[19:58] <edmoore> just put them somewhere
[19:58] <fnoble> will be faster
[19:59] <fnoble> i think we have space
[19:59] <edmoore> whatever, upload
[19:59] <hallam> is that srcf webspace?
[19:59] <fnoble> yeah
[20:00] <edmoore> nova6selected in images, how about
[20:04] <fnoble> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/
[20:04] <fnoble> more to come as iain picks some out
[20:05] <fnoble> sorry about blatant corporate selling out
[20:05] <fnoble> but got us lots of tooling and all the helium we can use
[20:05] <edmoore> keep uploading
[20:06] <edmoore> but so far, lovely
[20:06] <fnoble> ok, well ill let iain select a whole bunch of nice ones
[20:07] <fnoble> in the mean time ill get started on the logs
[20:07] <hallam> Looks like the logos came out pretty well
[20:07] <hallam> one in front of each camera?
[20:07] <fnoble> yeah
[20:07] <fnoble> appart from kml, what do you think it would be useful to see graphed?
[20:07] <edmoore> just upload the log to the server
[20:07] <hallam> battery maybe
[20:07] <edmoore> then anyone can mess around
[20:08] <edmoore> eg me
[20:08] <fnoble> no battery monitoring on this one
[20:08] <fnoble> didn't have time
[20:08] <hallam> what did you log then? :P
[20:08] <edmoore> and make sure iain doesn't dally - we'll wait till there are more up to start pinging people who are interested
[20:08] <edmoore> need more than 2 really
[20:08] <fnoble> yup
[20:08] <edmoore> but stick the log up in the mean time
[20:09] <fnoble> well, temperature and gps mainly :)
[20:09] <fnoble> but can etract stuff from the gps
[20:09] <fnoble> i think ascent rate would be good to see
[20:09] <edmoore> log...upload...
[20:10] <fnoble> on svn?
[20:10] <edmoore> no, nova6selected
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[20:10] <edmoore> will be fine
[20:10] <fnoble> ok, just for now
[20:10] <edmoore> other people are allowed to see it
[20:10] <fnoble> done
[20:10] <fnoble> yeah i know
[20:11] <fnoble> but its probably best not filed under the images folder
[20:11] <fnoble> meh
[20:11] <edmoore> oh yeah, ok
[20:13] <hallam> that temp is suspicious
[20:13] <fnoble> well, it does change
[20:13] <hallam> it does?
[20:13] <fnoble> erlier in the day it was reading 21C
[20:13] <fnoble> in one of the morning bits of log when we were faffing
[20:14] <hallam> I'm still a little dubious
[20:14] <hallam> what sort of sensor was it?
[20:14] <fnoble> i think its not really accurate to the quarter degree like it would have you think
[20:14] <hallam> yeah but to stay *so* constant
[20:14] <fnoble> some randome spi one ed had lying around
[20:14] <edmoore> from ad
[20:14] <edmoore> forget the part number
[20:14] <edmoore> 10 bit
[20:14] <fnoble> i think its prolly only good to maybe one or two degrees
[20:14] <hallam> 31.5*2 = 63 = 111111 binary
[20:15] <hallam> bit of numerology
[20:15] <fnoble> ok, perhaps its dead lol
[20:15] <edmoore> lol
[20:15] <edmoore> good point
[20:15] <edmoore> fnoble: how is iain getting on?
[20:15] <fnoble> fine
[20:15] <hallam> did Madsen go on the chase?
[20:16] <fnoble> it takes a certain amount of time to flick through 2000 odd photos, even very quickly
[20:16] <hallam> :D
[20:16] <fnoble> o, he was busy
[20:16] <hallam> let's get a Spaceflight dropbox, it would be ideal for this sort of data dumping
[20:16] <edmoore> exactly
[20:16] <hallam> instant seamless background upload
[20:17] <hallam> Iain could be dumping the good pics into the folder and it would upload by itself
[20:17] <fnoble> edmoore, think you could make it up for tomorrow if we launch in the afternoon?
[20:18] <edmoore> would have to be fairly later afternoon
[20:18] <hallam> wow, quick turnaround, that's awesome
[20:18] <hallam> what are you flying tomorrow?
[20:18] <edmoore> there's only so much you can do with a fulltime job
[20:18] <edmoore> i'd have to let you know about launchtime
[20:19] <edmoore> lunchtime*
[20:19] <edmoore> who's responsible for putting a bit of yellow stuff infront of the camera?
[20:20] <fnoble> it was hard, they are the cords trying up to the balloon
[20:20] <edmoore> does that mean you?
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[20:20] <edmoore> i guess it can be an improvement for tomorrow :p
[20:21] <fnoble> if you see the payload design you would see there is no easy way to do it
[20:21] <fnoble> without making the lines all attach really close together
[20:21] <fnoble> we checked on the ground and it was ok
[20:22] <edmoore> ok, well space has funny efects
[20:22] <fnoble> but it must have hung a bit differently up there
[20:22] <edmoore> now we know that
[20:22] <edmoore> it would be good to get that fixed for tomorrow, that's all
[20:22] <soneil> are there any pics of the payload ?
[20:23] <fnoble> 57 of the best from the BOC camera going up now
[20:23] <hallam> ooh cloud pics
[20:23] <hallam> gorgeous
[20:24] <fnoble> will put some pics of the payload and landing up once we have got a good selection from both flight cameras up
[20:24] <soneil> cool
[20:24] <hallam> do we have any CS minions on team?
[20:25] <hallam> get one of them to make a gallery generator that includes position, altitude and a google map plot for every picture
[20:25] <fnoble> heh yeah
[20:25] <edmoore> it's something to work on
[20:25] <fnoble> unfortunately its just us three for now
[20:26] <edmoore> after today I'm quite convinved of the value of getting a tracking ant on the cued roof, and running truetty and an IRC bot on it
[20:26] <soneil> are the exif timestamps on the images good ?
[20:26] <fnoble> yeah, the reception was so sweet
[20:26] <fnoble> probably not
[20:26] <fnoble> are they times from today between 12:30 and 4pm ish?
[20:27] <fnoble> my viewer doesnt show that information
[20:28] <fnoble> i do think the temp must have been fairly constant as the radio didnt drift at all
[20:28] <hallam> true
[20:28] <fnoble> like not even one click on the dia
[20:28] <edmoore> Jos: Holland! http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT0982.JPG
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[20:29] <edmoore> where's this? http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1003.JPG
[20:30] <hallam> you see Holland in there?
[20:30] <fnoble> its a bit north of cambridge looking north-north-east
[20:30] <edmoore> blight_ , gordonjcp , jnd , Jos , rouslan pics are now up!
[20:30] <edmoore> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/
[20:30] <edmoore> so yarmous?
[20:31] <edmoore> yarmouth*
[20:31] <fnoble> the coast is the top bit of the east-anglia lump
[20:31] <fnoble> (i think)
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[20:31] <hallam> there's no time EXIF data in these :(
[20:32] <soneil> yeah, I was just looking to make sure I'm not nuts
[20:32] <blight_> edmoore: cool thx
[20:32] <soneil> it might be worth making sure the camera has it's clock set to utc, to have any hope of automating photo vs gps plot
[20:32] <fnoble> soneil, oh ok, i thought you were implying there was
[20:33] <soneil> no, I just hadn't looked at all
[20:33] <fnoble> yeah, although they are taken at a set interval of 10seconds
[20:34] <fnoble> so could roughtly reconstruct it from that
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[20:35] <jnd> or use the file date no?
[20:35] <edmoore> fnoble: I love this one http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1037.JPG
[20:35] <jnd> me too :)
[20:36] <jnd> photoshop the things away and it will be great :p
[20:36] <fnoble> heh, have found a load of the shreaded balloon on the way down
[20:36] <fnoble> wil get them up in a sec
[20:36] <fnoble> its amazing the chute didnt tangle in it
[20:37] <fnoble> the BOC camera ran out of space well before apogee so the next bunch from the other camera have some from a lot higher
[20:37] <edmoore> fnoble: for tomorrow's flight, howsabout (and scream at me about how-bloody-unfeasbale-it-is) shifting the sponsor thing up and to the right so it fills the upper right corner, and loosing the line?
[20:37] <edmoore> fnoble: aaaargh, tantalising
[20:37] <edmoore> get up the really high alt ones quickly
[20:37] <edmoore> then tell iain he can be arty farty and selective
[20:38] <fnoble> well one of the two i put up first is from quite high
[20:38] <fnoble> the one with the cambridge precision logo
[20:38] <edmoore> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1411.JPG
[20:39] <edmoore> a lot more noise in the sky higher up
[20:39] <edmoore> are they both premiers?
[20:39] <fnoble> yup, cheap and cheerful
[20:39] <fnoble> seem to work well in HAB duty
[20:39] <edmoore> yup yup, just interesting that it's noisier
[20:39] <soneil> I thought that'd happen with any ccd?
[20:40] <edmoore> but the BOC camera is the same, yet the pics seem less noisy
[20:40] <edmoore> could jsut be a better ccd
[20:40] <fnoble> edmoore, have you looked at the log yet
[20:40] <edmoore> yes
[20:40] <edmoore> it's open here
[20:40] <edmoore> though my csv reads are getting broken by it
[20:40] <edmoore> and haven't coded something more robust yet
[20:40] <fnoble> yeh my kml generator/grapher is getting confused
[20:41] <fnoble> its not really been used in anger before
[20:41] <fnoble> wondered if you had made a version with the errors taken out
[20:41] <edmoore> the row lengths keep changing, that'd be why
[20:41] <jnd> run it through some regex filter
[20:41] <edmoore> not yet, will work on it
[20:41] <edmoore> yeah
[20:41] <fnoble> yeah, could do it with some regex magic
[20:41] <edmoore> i did start build a thing to parse anything with regex and turn it into a kml
[20:41] <edmoore> but it is in haskell so is taking a bit longer to program
[20:42] <fnoble> well i have such a thing, in python, but it seems to be a bit broken when you give it unexpected data :)
[20:42] <edmoore> we can sort it out later
[20:42] <edmoore> i am going to the pub soon
[20:42] <fnoble> will try nd regex out the obvious mistakes
[20:43] <edmoore> fnoble: what is the realistic latest we can launch tomorrow?
[20:43] <fnoble> am going for food soon too
[20:43] <fnoble> oooh, found an awesome photo
[20:43] <edmoore> upload, and specify the name
[20:43] <edmoore> remember there could be clashes
[20:44] <fnoble> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1711.JPG
[20:44] <fnoble> what are the chances of catchin that eh? :)
[20:45] <edmoore> awesome
[20:45] <edmoore> crap shred though
[20:45] <edmoore> we need to get this accelerometer thing working on the next one
[20:45] <fnoble> yeah
[20:45] <fnoble> lots to get working on the next one
[20:45] <edmoore> :)
[20:45] <edmoore> it will rock though
[20:46] <fnoble> like not getting the filesystem to corrupt with large log files :)
[20:46] <edmoore> RocketBoyV1: what do you think of that most recent one?
[20:46] <jnd> get working the accelerometer, voltage, pressure, and temperature :)
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[20:53] <icez> wow
[20:53] <icez> nice picture :P
[20:58] <edmoore_> right, I'm going to the pub
[20:58] <edmoore_> fnoble: awesome. will call or irc tomorrow
[20:59] <fnoble> ok, bye
[20:59] <soneil> thanks for the info ed
[20:59] <fnoble> edmoore_, see if you can get the afternoon off :)
[21:01] <edmoore_> fnoble: I will try my hardest
[21:01] <edmoore_> but it's a busy time
[21:01] <fnoble> ok, cool
[21:01] <fnoble> well ill keep in touch about whats going on tomorrow
[21:02] <edmoore_> cool, do
[21:02] Nick change: edmoore_ -> edmoore|away
[21:02] <fnoble> RocketBoyV1, are you around?
[21:10] <rouslan> Those pictures are interesting...very high altitude
[21:14] <rouslan> Portions of the log file are corrupted for some reason.
[21:14] <fnoble> yeah, there was a problem with writing larger files
[21:14] <fnoble> the whole FAT was shot
[21:14] <fnoble> but i managed to extract that
[21:15] <fnoble> i almost have it down to just the good data
[21:15] <rouslan> Why not ext2/ext3?
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[21:15] <fnoble> portability and ease of coding
[21:15] <rouslan> I see.
[21:16] <rouslan> It would be better if more sensors are added.
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> MOAR SENSORS!
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> I recently found some quite nice accelerometers.
[21:16] <rouslan> And a higher altitude.
[21:17] <SpeedEvil> About 50 times lower noise than the ADXL202 class ones found in the WII
[21:17] <icez> cut the balloon at 40km and go rocket power :P
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[21:17] <SpeedEvil> The vendor got back to me real quick when I wanted a quote for 250, as they were $200 each - in quantity :/
[21:18] <SpeedEvil> Small rockets are quite easy.
[21:18] <SpeedEvil> Large ones get annoyingly complex.
[21:19] <rouslan> icez: I wonder how difficult/reliable multiple phases would be.
[21:19] Action: SpeedEvil has some prototype regeneratively cooled rocket engine parts in the garage.
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[21:21] <fnoble> yeah i hope to get accn, pressure and probably 3 axis gyro on the next round of boards
[21:21] <icez> it'd be nice though, to go up with the balloon, go even higher with some rockets, and land back down with a glyder :P
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> magnetometer is nice and cheap.
[21:22] <rouslan> flux-gate?
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> No - the integrated giant magnetoresistive sort.
[21:22] <fnoble> yeah ive been toying with the idea of a magnetometer but really want 3 axis
[21:22] <fnoble> hard to get 3 axis ones in a small package
[21:22] <rouslan> What about a muon detector?
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> Without a 3 axis one it's less useful.
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> There are 3 axis packaged ones, but they're not very cheap.
[21:23] <fnoble> i dont really want to make standy uppy boards at this point
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[21:24] <rouslan> A geiger counter would be nice too - I've seen cheap ~$20 Russian-manufactured geiger counters (very small and lightweight).
[21:24] <fnoble> ok, a whole bunch more photos from the other camera have gone up
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=719
[21:25] <fnoble> got a bunch at much higher altitudes
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> 2 axis example of magnetometer.
[21:25] <soneil> another annoying question .. what cameras were used today? do you look for specific ones that can handle the cold ?
[21:26] <SpeedEvil> soneil: the 'easy' way is to put it in a warm box with a window.
[21:26] <soneil> ah
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> soneil: which with a teeny 3*3cm window, and 5cm of polystyrene, the power to keep it warm for a hour or two isn't horrible.
[21:27] <fnoble> well the ones today were branded "premier"
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> Or just pot-luck.
[21:27] <fnoble> they were the cheapest 5MP ones we could buy
[21:27] <fnoble> and they were completely unshielded from the elements
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> Moving parts are typically bad.
[21:28] <fnoble> yeah, as is autofocus
[21:28] <SpeedEvil> Absent moving parts, and many cameras will work.
[21:28] <fnoble> some autofocuses get confused and all you get is blurring
[21:28] <SpeedEvil> At least once or twice.
[21:28] <fnoble> our ones had manual focus so we just set it to infinity before we let go
[21:28] <SpeedEvil> Repetitive thermal cycling to damn cold isn't good for much electronics.
[21:28] <fnoble> ok, got to go eat, will be back on later
[21:28] <SpeedEvil> wherer are pics?
[21:29] <fnoble> www.cuspaceflight.co.uk/images/nova6selected/
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> Thanks.
[21:29] <fnoble> sorry no index yet
[21:29] <fnoble> ok, will be on later
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> Index?
[21:29] <fnoble> i mean thumbnails
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> What's that :)
[21:29] <soneil> I've used an slr at -40C, but only sustained for about 20 minutes, so wasn't sure what to look for
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> s'fine.
[21:30] <SpeedEvil> soneil: at -40C, you risk batteries - even li-ion freeexzing.
[21:30] <soneil> I was more worried about the operator :)
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[21:34] <jatkins> hi all
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[21:36] <icez> hi
[21:36] <jatkins> hi icez
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> OMG
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1804.JPG
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> It's the flying spaghetti monster!
[21:37] <soneil> broke their alt record *and* proved a major religion. what a day!
[21:37] <jatkins> lol :)
[21:38] <RocketBoyV1> say - well done NOVA guys - good to see you back in action again
[21:38] <jatkins> great to see the pics up .. I've been off for a little while
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1500.JPG
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> I don't like the physical badges.
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> If only as I suspect that the cams have focussed on them.
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> (compared to a software imposition later)
[21:39] <soneil> yeah, I'd rather they were post-processed too. but I ain't paying their bills, so I kept quiet
[21:39] <jatkins> well I guess the sponsors would get annoyed with putting it on later
[21:39] <jatkins> lol
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> Fair enough.
[21:40] <jatkins> it's a good revenue stream though
[21:40] <jatkins> JP Aerospace do it on a bigger scale
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> The atmosphere tends to screw things up.
[21:40] <jatkins> yeah
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> And make it blurry anyway at high alts and not vertical shots
[21:40] <jatkins> yep
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1500.JPG is a nice dark-sky one.
[21:41] <jatkins> Bigelow Aerospace do a similar thing - flying photos in microgravity
[21:41] <jatkins> or zero g or neutral gravity or whatever it is now :)
[21:42] <jatkins> SpeedEvil: yeah that's a nice one
[21:42] <jatkins> looks like the NASA ones from LEO
[21:42] <jatkins> compare http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Sts114_033.jpg
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> Subject Distance Ran|Distant view
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> says exif
[21:45] <jatkins> almost as if they were taken from a *much* higher altitude - in the Nova 1 pics it's just mostly land
[21:45] <jatkins> must be just where the cameras were positioned and the angle they were taken at - pretty cool though
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[21:46] <jatkins> rocketboy: do you know if the launch permit is just for EARS or if other sites are permitted?
[21:48] <icez> you know...
[21:48] <icez> instead of putting sponsors they should put a little figurine of an astronaut on nova7
[21:48] <icez> :P
[21:48] <jatkins> lol
[21:52] <soneil> next stupid question .. how much does the sun make a difference? would timing to get sunset be a problem ?
[21:52] <jatkins> don't see why
[21:53] <jatkins> I think there are plans to do sunset launches
[21:53] <jatkins> with jcoxon's firefly payload
[21:53] <jatkins> or you could stay buoyant and photograph it the next day :)
[21:53] <jatkins> it's possible
[21:53] <jatkins> but difficult
[21:54] <jatkins> soneil: have you seen spirit of knoxville?
[21:54] <soneil> yeah, that's why I asked. I was reading that the transatlantic attempts jetison weight to counteract the lack of sun's cooling at sundown
[21:54] <jatkins> oh right
[21:54] <jatkins> there's was a zero pressure balloon I think
[21:54] <soneil> but I'm wondering if that's a constant issue, of if that's because they're built for daytime bouyancy, then have to deal with the change
[21:54] <jatkins> so they get extra lift
[21:55] <jatkins> because the sun's heat increases the temperature of the lifting gas, making it more buoyant - Charles' law
[21:55] <jatkins> I think that's why
[21:55] <soneil> well if someone's gonna beat me to it, I'll just keep my ears to the ground then :)
[21:55] <icez> yeah
[21:55] <jatkins> lol
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[21:56] <jatkins> the SNOX missions were planned for possible multi-day missions, so I guess they're designed for day and night bouyancy
[21:56] <jatkins> although I don't know whether they've ever had a balloon aloft at night
[21:56] <soneil> I really haven't put a lot of thought into this yet .. when I first saw them, I was in michigan, so had water on most sides, so discounted the idea straight away
[21:57] <jatkins> although the most recent flight could have been - can't remember
[21:57] <jatkins> lol
[21:57] <jatkins> well as long as you have a robust cutdown device you should be ok
[21:57] <jatkins> i.e. cutdown from the balloon if you get near the water
[21:57] <jatkins> (too) near
[21:58] <jatkins> that's the problem with launching from where I am - too near the coast
[22:06] <gordonjcp> jatkins: I reckon that's what would happen if I launched
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[22:12] <jatkins> yeah, perhaps
[22:12] <jatkins> so I'm planning to go up to Cambridge to launch mine
[22:13] <soneil> we already have pictures of cambridge!
[22:13] <jatkins> yep!
[22:13] <jatkins> lol
[22:14] <jatkins> gordonjcp: you're much closer to the sea than I am, but it depends on the direction of the jetstream, which I don't know much (anything) about
[22:14] <soneil> another stupid question .. if you actually wanted to cover more distance, how would you control the ascent so you don't pop out the top of the jetstream ?
[22:15] <hallam> vent gas
[22:16] <hallam> or have a booster balloon for the initial ascent that you release
[22:17] <rouslan> jatkins: That seems like a good idea - it could be automated by programming the coordinate limits and having an AND function for reasonable altitude (to prevent significant damage).
[22:17] <hallam> rouslan: that's pretty much exactly what we had on most of the previous Nova flights
[22:18] <hallam> also an absolute limit on time-since-launch
[22:18] <hallam> but it needs a reliable cutdown, which historically hasn't always been a good assumption
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[22:22] Nick change: Jos -> jos
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> The initial fall after cutdown is really quite fast.
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> 60MPH or so.
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> Though I suppose that's not nearly as fast as it'd have been if the cutdown had worked.
[22:27] <hallam> I seem to remember logging 110MPH once
[22:27] <hallam> with a parachute that is deployed later, it would be quite a lot faster still
[22:28] <hallam> but it's not like feeling a 60mph wind because the air density is so low, the dynamic pressure / indicated airspeed is quite mild
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> The air up at 30KM is a few millibars.
[22:28] <hallam> it's about 1% of sea level density
[22:29] <SpeedEvil> 15?
[22:29] <SpeedEvil> Of that order anyway.
[22:29] <hallam> right
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[22:33] <SpeedEvil> The balloon is going quite significantly sideways at points on the way up.
[22:33] <natrium42> wow, so many people
[22:33] <natrium42> what's happening?
[22:34] <icez> they found nova6 this morning for one
[22:35] <natrium42> aah, cool
[22:35] <icez> really near a river I think :P
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> google indicated about 5m from a significant river.
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> (significant= you can't wade in and get it)
[22:36] <natrium42> nova6 was launched today?
[22:37] <icez> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1500.JPG is a nice 'dark sky' shot.
[22:38] <rouslan> This page needs updating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CU_Spaceflight
[22:39] <natrium42> grr, what's with the business card? :P
[22:39] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: sponsorship!
[22:39] <jnd> I like this one http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1489.JPG
[22:39] <SpeedEvil> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/nova6selected/PICT1804.JPG Proof that there is a god! (FSM)
[22:39] <natrium42> SpeedEvil, meh to that
[22:39] <natrium42> SFW?
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> (flying spaghetti monster)
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> and quite safe for work.
[22:40] <rouslan> So this project is supported by Cambridge/MIT....it must be impossible to get into MIT.
[22:41] <SpeedEvil> jnd: that's nice.
[22:41] <rouslan> extremely prestigious
[22:41] <natrium42> nice pics
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[23:12] <akawaka> congrats on the fligjt
[23:12] <akawaka> shame about the business card though guys:)
[23:14] <natrium42> haha, told ya
[23:15] <akawaka> stick a watermark on the images or something
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[00:00] --- Thu Jul 24 2008