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[08:13] <edmoore> hi kc0wys
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[09:20] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[09:20] <jcoxon> good morning edmoore
[09:20] <jcoxon> back home?
[09:21] <edmoore> yo
[09:23] <edmoore> yes back home, alive and well.
[09:23] <edmoore> tell me about this book
[09:23] <jcoxon> well its by JP of JPAerospace
[09:24] <jcoxon> about his Airship to Orbit concept and the early days of JPAerosapce
[09:24] <edmoore> does he actually give an info on how ATO should work?
[09:24] <jcoxon> yeah
[09:25] <jcoxon> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Floating-Space-Airship-Program-Apogee/dp/1894959736
[09:25] <jcoxon> but i found more interesting is their past missions
[09:25] <jcoxon> they've done a lot
[09:25] <edmoore> yeah. I like pong sats too.
[09:25] <edmoore> Nice idea.
[09:26] <jcoxon> little tips such as a rapidly ascending balloon creates a low pressure bubble behind it
[09:26] <jcoxon> which can cause lots of disruptions
[09:26] <jcoxon> and some of the weird oscillations of the bottom of the balloon (like the old 500gs did)
[09:27] <jcoxon> NASA actually have little rubber hemispheres on the lower half of the balloon to break the airflow to stop this
[09:28] <edmoore> interesting...
[09:28] <edmoore> presumably though the speed then should decrease at some point
[09:28] <edmoore> with a little kick
[09:28] <jcoxon> they apparently use this to their advantage for dual balloons
[09:30] <edmoore> how?
[09:30] <jcoxon> that i don't know
[09:30] <jcoxon> it comes from the fact that one of their dark sky stations ripped itself apart as all 10 balloons began to oscilate together
[09:31] <edmoore> that does not suprise me at all - we always wondered how on earth they could make that thing actually work
[09:31] <edmoore> obviously the couldn't
[09:32] <jcoxon> well the first one worked
[09:32] <jcoxon> which was smaller
[09:33] <edmoore> see I'd imagine it'd work like this - in lower reynolds number regeimes, i.e. lower in that atmosphere, you'd get flow seperation off the back of the balloon if it was going fast enough.
[09:33] <jcoxon> yeah
[09:33] <jcoxon> i imagined that unscientifically
[09:33] <edmoore> flow seperation is not symmetric, and you get vortex shedding - this casuses the balloons to oscillate slightly
[09:33] <jcoxon> and then some resonance
[09:33] <jcoxon> and everything breaks
[09:33] <edmoore> if you have several balloons, they're probably start to link up into a common vortex shedding mode, which would give you some really amplified oscillations
[09:34] <edmoore> and yeah.
[09:34] <jcoxon> now our ring system actually allowed our dual balloon system to place itself into an optimum resonance setup
[09:34] <edmoore> have you ever seen those spiral bits of metal around chimneys?
[09:34] <jcoxon> yup
[09:35] <edmoore> they stop vortices forming, because if vortices do start forming, they adapt to the natural frequency of the structure, and break it.
[09:35] <jcoxon> from all this - its probably best to put a long line from balloon to payload
[09:36] <edmoore> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Kármán_vortex_street
[09:36] <edmoore> yes for sure.
[09:36] <jcoxon> to avoid the payload getting involved with the low pressure bubble
[09:36] <jcoxon> or the edge of it
[09:36] <edmoore> and maybe more damping on the payload
[09:36] <edmoore> i.e. some wing bits sticking out
[09:36] <jcoxon> yeah
[09:36] <jcoxon> but the most important thing i learnt:
[09:36] <jcoxon> they have as worse a success rate as us
[09:36] <edmoore> :D
[09:37] <icez> hey, did you guys do any new baloon stuff while I was gone?:P
[09:37] <jcoxon> hey icez
[09:37] <jcoxon> a little bit
[09:37] <jcoxon> the Firefly missions (which were only partially successful
[09:37] <jcoxon> )
[09:38] <jcoxon> in the next month or so there is going to be a lot more
[09:38] <icez> cool
[09:38] <edmoore> yes - quite a lot more. In fact, I need to go and play with my dual deployment system
[09:39] <edmoore> really want that wee beastie working!
[09:39] <edmoore> so I'll ctach you guys later.
[09:39] <icez> i need to get back to programming stuff :P
[09:39] <icez> then maybe join a project of sorts
[09:39] <edmoore> bbl
[09:39] <jcoxon> sure
[09:39] edmoore (n=edmoore@88-212-167-121.rdns.as8401.net) left irc:
[09:39] <jcoxon> i've been working on some ground software
[09:40] <jcoxon> (that actually works)
[09:42] <icez> :P
[09:42] <jcoxon> uses bluetooth to grap incoming sms off my phone
[09:42] <icez> not sure what I wanna do
[09:42] <jcoxon> also gets teh incoming radio off TrueTTY (the deocder software) which is running on my mac using wine
[09:42] <icez> all the projects I submitted patches to declined them :P
[09:42] <jcoxon> and then uploads it to the web
[09:42] <jcoxon> icez, really
[09:43] <jcoxon> thats unusual
[09:43] <icez> well, it happens
[09:44] <icez> never really had a project of my own yet anyways
[09:44] <icez> lots and lots of ideas though ;)
[09:44] <jcoxon> find a software itch you want to scratch and then go for it
[09:44] <icez> if only I could magically spawn anything I can think of D:
[09:45] <icez> yeah
[09:45] <icez> I was trying to get into libnova (an astronomical calculation library)
[09:46] <icez> I also did some stuff for gnome-outliner but they went dead for a very long time
[09:46] <jcoxon> wht do you program in?
[09:47] <icez> C/C++/Java/python
[09:47] <icez> C being my favorite of course :P
[09:47] <jcoxon> cool
[09:50] <icez> i'll get there
[09:50] <icez> good night
[09:51] <jcoxon> night
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[14:27] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[14:27] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[14:27] <jcoxon> urgh i can't be bothered to revise
[14:30] <kc0wys> hey
[14:31] <jcoxon> hey kc0wys
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[17:06] <jcoxon> edmoore, hows the dual deployment system?
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[18:35] <edmoore> jcoxon: yo
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[18:35] <edmoore> need to sew up a deployment bag.
[18:44] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[18:44] <edmoore> yo
[18:44] <edmoore> sorry - had a boozy lunch and more-or-less passed out for the afternoon
[18:45] <jcoxon> haha
[18:45] <jcoxon> no worries
[18:47] <edmoore> i like coming home :)
[18:48] <jcoxon> good!
[18:52] <edmoore> but yeah, it's a fairly simple idea. drogue that is deployed as if it were a conventional main. the bottom of that is attached to the top of a deployment bag. the deployment bag and several meters of nylon chord site loosely in a tube just for neatness and to stop stray chords floating about. where the string from the drogue attaches to the deployment bag, there is another chord that comes down to an explosive link, the other end of
[18:53] <jcoxon> similar to the old parafoil depolyment system
[18:53] <edmoore> and all that link stuff straps onto the side of the same bit of rocket tube that the chute sits in, for neatness.
[18:54] <edmoore> yup, it's all pretty conventional. Just trying to KISS.
[18:54] <jcoxon> sounds all good
[18:57] <jcoxon> just been to tescos - they don't see GU ice cream
[18:57] <edmoore> There'll be an optimum design for chutes for balloons too.
[18:58] <edmoore> Waitrose do I think.
[18:58] <edmoore> Can't remember where I got mine
[18:58] <jcoxon> hmmmm, the nearest waitrose doesn't either
[18:58] <jcoxon> oh well
[19:24] <edmoore> jcoxon: so are you home just for the w/e?
[19:25] <edmoore> or for a while now?
[19:25] <jcoxon> i'm back for a while
[19:25] <jcoxon> i'll be in london definitely till 6th August
[19:25] <edmoore> when zams finish?
[19:25] <jcoxon> as i have exams 22 July and 4th,5th August
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[19:57] <edmoore> jcoxon: this might be of interest to you too - http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/math_science/rftoolbox.html
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[20:08] <fnoble> edmoore:
[20:08] <fnoble> edmoore: have thought up a cool way of slowing us down
[20:08] <fnoble> on reentry
[20:09] <fnoble> you there?
[20:10] <edmoore> fnoble: go
[20:10] <edmoore> fnoble: am here
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[21:33] <hallam> hello
[21:34] <natrium42> hi
[21:36] <natrium42> edmoore, what's the deal with the chemtrail guys?
[21:37] <hallam> um, they're conspiracy nuts?
[21:37] <natrium42> ahaha
[21:37] <natrium42> i just wikipedia'd it
[21:37] <natrium42> one guy contacted me about building a balloon payload
[21:37] <hallam> oh wikipedia and your neutral point of view
[21:37] <natrium42> to sample chemtrails
[21:37] <hallam> haha
[21:37] <hallam> if he pays enough
[21:38] <hallam> you could have him pay you extra to doctor the results
[21:38] <natrium42> i doubt that a chemtrail guy would have money
[21:38] <natrium42> and besides
[21:38] <natrium42> why waste time
[21:38] <edmoore> natrium42: sorry?
[21:39] <natrium42> edmoore, last comment: http://www.natrium42.com/halo/flight2/
[21:39] <natrium42> he also emailed me with the same stuff
[21:40] <edmoore> lol
[21:40] <edmoore> first you must do everything for me
[21:40] <natrium42> yah, the standard crap
[21:43] <edmoore> natrium42: that guy called daniel who posted a bit above
[21:43] <edmoore> I agree with you - amazing mooon shot
[21:43] <natrium42> isn't it? :D
[21:44] <edmoore> hallam: http://www.fairpoint.net/~kj4zi/sim_rep.htm
[21:44] <natrium42> edmoore, similar to one taken by STS --> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap070320.html
[21:45] <natrium42> i just wish he had a higher res
[21:45] <edmoore> I wish I could make apod my wallpaper
[21:45] <edmoore> something fun to wake up to
[21:46] <edmoore> (spot the single guy)
[21:46] <natrium42> that wish is easy to fulfill
[21:46] <natrium42> with a small script
[21:46] <edmoore> some kind of scripty voodoo?
[21:46] <edmoore> yeah yeah, I guess i have no excuse
[21:46] <natrium42> :P
[21:46] Nick change: MeTa -> MetaMorfoziS
[21:47] <edmoore> I was very pleased with myself last week actually, I made a small script to convert csv files into latex tables. This is A Big Deal for ed, who is not good at programming.
[21:48] <natrium42> hehe, nice
[21:48] <edmoore> well, scripting anyway. can cope with assembler.
[21:48] <hallam> that is a nice moon shot
[21:49] <edmoore> I think this is why c++ took me so long to get a hold on. I would always write stuff for which there are libraries for. I spent about 20 mins re-inventing ifstream a couple of weeks ago, then was shown ifstream and just cried gently.
[21:49] <edmoore> yeah it is
[21:49] <edmoore> hallam: still really want that sunrise shot
[21:49] <hallam> I got frustrated with my annoying excel / vba procedure to convert logs output from balloon/rocket tracker from almost-csv into Google Earth KML
[21:49] <hallam> so now the tracker just outputs a KML file
[21:49] <hallam> it's so much more convenient
[21:50] <edmoore> that's true
[21:50] <edmoore> though fergus is head over heels with python
[21:50] <edmoore> so any excuse
[21:51] <edmoore> and csv is a bit easier to bash through octave
[21:53] <natrium42> often an editor with regex search and replace can do most format conversions
[21:53] <natrium42> i created a KML from a log using TextPad that way
[21:53] <edmoore> oh hallam, i didn't realise henry spencer on arocket was *the* henry spencer
[21:54] <edmoore> him who invented regex, among other things
[21:54] <hallam> um, as opposed to who?
[21:54] <hallam> ah
[21:54] <hallam> yes
[21:54] <hallam> he's an all-round legend
[21:54] <hallam> bunch of good old-school posts from him here: http://yarchive.net/
[21:55] <edmoore> natrium42: what scripting language do you use for all this?
[21:55] <natrium42> which part?
[21:56] <edmoore> hallam/natrium42: there might be some merit in making a really intelligent command line tool/think that can be put on a webserver, to parse lat long and alt out of almost any kind of text-based log file, and make a kml out of it
[21:56] <edmoore> as a gift to the good people of the internet
[21:57] <edmoore> or maybe add a bit onto 'convert'
[21:58] <natrium42> by looking if a coordinate looks right?
[21:58] <hallam> maybe
[21:58] <hallam> I'm working on a thingy that interfaces to TrueTTY but allows binary telemetry with error correction
[21:59] <edmoore> natrium42: something like that
[21:59] <hallam> you can fit perfectly precise lat/long/altitude in 5 bytes, which makes even the 12-byte minimal text string seem rather wasteful
[21:59] <edmoore> hallam: how do you manage that?
[21:59] <natrium42> edmoore, well, it's all about making a regex which grabs lat/lon and other data out of the log
[21:59] <edmoore> do you drop some of the more significant bits because they're assumed?
[22:00] <natrium42> the rest doesn't change
[22:00] <edmoore> natrium42: indeed, that's what i was thinking. Use regex to the max
[22:01] <edmoore> hallam: on the binary interface with the lassen, we currently have doubles being sent to us for lat and long
[22:01] <hallam> two single precision floats for lat and long, one byte for altitude in units of 200m
[22:01] <hallam> single precision covers the lat or long over 180 degrees to (just) better than GPS precision
[22:02] <hallam> I think you could maybe even fit it all in 4 bytes if you used 12-bit fixed point representation for lat and long
[22:05] <edmoore> is it really necessary though? what kind of data rates are you hoping to achieve?
[22:06] <hallam> I just figured the less time you wasted sending data, the more FEC you could have
[22:07] <edmoore> aye that's true
[22:08] <edmoore> though, and I'd like to be proved wrong, as long as we have the kind of current tech, we'll always be bimbling around at the sort of data rates and duty cycles where it's just as good to use an eyeball for error correction
[22:08] <hallam> EC is still useful at low data rates
[22:09] <edmoore> until we start getting, I dunno, a 1.2kb/s link, say, and we're constantly streaming info back
[22:09] <hallam> we've had a couple of flights where we were getting telemetry, but it was really poor quality
[22:11] <edmoore> oh hallam, have you had a look at the new STM32 parts?
[22:11] <hallam> no
[22:11] <hallam> aw man, another architecture to learn?
[22:12] <edmoore> http://www.st.com/mcu/download2.php?file=14611.pdf&info=STM32F103ZE%20Datasheet%20STM32F103xC-D-E&url=http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/14611.pdf
[22:12] <edmoore> nope, it's a new arm core so it's not that scary
[22:12] <edmoore> if we had our time with badger again, we'd use them.
[22:12] <hallam> http://www.st.com/mcu/inchtml-pages-stm32.html nice little selector they have here
[22:13] <edmoore> As it is, it's probs not worth a complete re-design and re-code to move to something not that much better than the arm7
[22:13] <edmoore> but they really are armed to the teeth with peripherals
[22:13] <hallam> inbuilt DAC, that's nice
[22:13] <edmoore> and everything has DMA
[22:14] <edmoore> so yeah - DMA the DAC to a lookup table
[22:14] <edmoore> and you'd have overheadless shaped radio
[22:14] <edmoore> nice, non?
[22:14] <hallam> certainly
[22:14] <hallam> but no PPI
[22:14] <hallam> :(
[22:14] <edmoore> CPU can get on with the important business of sweet fa
[22:14] <hallam> when will someone put one of those on a small uC
[22:14] <edmoore> yeah, it's just a wee micro tho :p
[22:15] <edmoore> rapid are selling them for peanuts
[22:15] <edmoore> well, not the new ones yet, but the 64 pin packages go for about £3
[22:15] <edmoore> ok, so Iain just told me something, which was new to me
[22:15] <edmoore> he wants to spin stabilise the rocket
[22:15] <edmoore> which makes a camera pointless
[22:16] <hallam> spin it up before launch?
[22:16] <hallam> I'm not sure there's much point after
[22:16] <edmoore> no, after, which scares me too
[22:16] <edmoore> as there's no feedback against imbalance
[22:16] <hallam> right
[22:17] <edmoore> just wants canted fins
[22:17] <hallam> why not before, since we can have such a heavy launch platform
[22:17] <edmoore> are says if it's all balanced it'll be fine
[22:17] <edmoore> I suggested that
[22:17] <edmoore> but it was after about an hours arguement over supersonic deceleration
[22:17] <edmoore> so called it quits and they went to get food
[22:18] <hallam> back to the supersonic decel for a minute
[22:18] <edmoore> but he's talking of the order of 10hz
[22:18] <hallam> could we have a sacrificial chute?
[22:18] <edmoore> there's not the weight for >1 chute
[22:18] <hallam> oh
[22:18] <edmoore> streamers are a possibiltiy
[22:18] <hallam> right
[22:18] <edmoore> if there was we could do it 'properly'
[22:18] <edmoore> i.e. a supersonic drogue and then a main, and it'd all be gravy
[22:19] <edmoore> but a streamer would only last about 10 seconds before fraying to bits of breaking the attachement point off
[22:19] <edmoore> it would be a slightly extreme way and it's probs worth exploring other methods first :)
[22:20] <edmoore> let me forward you the vid they sent me - it's a cool idea for the fins, but the rocket would still be pointing down
[22:20] <edmoore> the sweet spot is really sideways on as you'd have all the drag in the world
[22:21] <edmoore> hallam@mit?
[22:21] <hallam> henry at pericynthion.org
[22:21] <hallam> mit one will stop working any day now
[22:22] <edmoore> forwarded
[22:23] <edmoore> what's the deal with pericynthion.org?
[22:25] <hallam> it's my domain?
[22:25] <hallam> you can have an account if you like
[22:25] <edmoore> is there any content?
[22:25] <edmoore> I'd like a server actually. I wish cambridge had some nice way of hosting your own server.
[22:26] <edmoore> That didn't have to be taken home with you during the holidays
[22:26] <edmoore> I'm going to try and do all my 2a coursework on an svn
[22:26] <hallam> no content
[22:26] <edmoore> just as a backup and so i can get to it from the dept too
[22:26] <hallam> I don't have a server attached to it, just the 100MB of webspace that google gives you with your domain
[22:27] <edmoore> ok
[22:27] <edmoore> well I've got enough web accounts for the min, I think.
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[22:30] <edmoore> but ty :)
[22:31] <edmoore> well hallam, if the spinning goes ahead, there may be little point in equipping the payload with a camera. Unless we wait for it to slow down during re-entry
[22:31] <edmoore> but i really want the footage!
[22:31] <edmoore> I love the vids from the srb cameras
[22:36] <hallam> right - we'll see, I don't think post-launch spinning is a good plan
[22:36] <hallam> other cool idea -
[22:36] <hallam> launch, spinning or whatever, eject a 150g capsule at apogee that is camera + miniature RCS
[22:37] <edmoore> it's another thing to track...
[22:37] <edmoore> and another 150g
[22:37] <edmoore> I bloody height these weight restrictions
[22:38] <edmoore> hate*
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[23:08] fnoble (n=fnoble@fn217.quns.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[23:09] <fnoble> hello
[23:09] <fnoble> edmoore: you still here?
[23:09] <edmoore> yes
[23:09] <fnoble> and henry?
[23:09] <fnoble> hallam: boo
[23:13] <fnoble> edmoore: any more thoughts?
[23:13] <edmoore> fnoble: yes
[23:13] <edmoore> a minor sacrifice of 5hz+ would be the camera
[23:13] <edmoore> it'd be pretty useless
[23:19] Laurenceb (n=Laurence@host81-132-18-72.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[23:19] <Laurenceb> hi folks
[23:19] <edmoore> hi Laurenceb
[23:21] phatmonkey (n=ben@scooby.firshman.co.uk) left irc:
[23:21] <Laurenceb> ah google groups
[23:21] <Laurenceb> interesting
[23:24] <Laurenceb> hows life?
[23:25] <fnoble> hi Laurenceb
[23:25] phatmonkey (n=ben@scooby.firshman.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[23:25] <Laurenceb> yo
[23:26] <Laurenceb> arggg whats with all these new features on facebook
[23:27] <phatmonkey> hey
[23:27] <phatmonkey> just got the new server set up
[23:27] <phatmonkey> so i'll move the site
[23:27] <phatmonkey> Laurenceb: you on the new list?
[23:27] <phatmonkey> jcoxon: what i just said
[23:27] <Laurenceb> hopefully I'm on
[23:28] <Laurenceb> you know my email?
[23:28] <phatmonkey> eerrmm
[23:29] <phatmonkey> i just invited everyone on the old list to the new one
[23:29] <phatmonkey> so you should have got an invite
[23:29] <Laurenceb> ok
[23:29] <Laurenceb> I just sent you a blank email
[23:31] <fnoble> can i be on the list
[23:31] <fnoble> :)
[23:35] <fnoble> ive been meaning to join for ages
[23:36] <phatmonkey> fnoble: http://groups.google.com/group/ukhas go ahead!
[23:37] <jcoxon> hey guys
[23:38] <fnoble> hi james
[23:38] <jcoxon> hey
[23:39] Action: jcoxon really loves having the play,pause, forward and back buttons on his macbook to contol ibook
[23:39] <jcoxon> itunes*
[23:39] <fnoble> got a new macbook?
[23:39] <fnoble> old one finally give up the ghost?
[23:39] <jcoxon> i've had it for a few months
[23:39] <jcoxon> yeah
[23:40] <jcoxon> died of the ibook fan and crazy screen problem
[23:40] <jcoxon> if i mange to fix it i'm turning it into a tablet :-p
[23:40] <fnoble> that would be sweet
[23:40] <jcoxon> or perhaps just a media server
[23:41] <Laurenceb> hey what happened to the site?
[23:41] <jcoxon> server is being moved
[23:42] <Laurenceb> ah
[23:42] <jcoxon> phatmonkey is setting it up, i'll run it
[23:42] <phatmonkey> did the site die?
[23:42] <phatmonkey> whups, site wasn't supposed to die
[23:42] <jcoxon> wiki ain't workign
[23:43] <jcoxon> and ukhas.org.uk is going straight to reg123
[23:43] <phatmonkey> hmmmm
[23:43] <phatmonkey> I moved the dns, maybe they haven't sort it their end yet
[23:43] <phatmonkey> ah, they reset it
[23:43] <jcoxon> it usually takes a while to filter through doesn't it
[23:44] <Laurenceb> heh this brings back memories
[23:44] <phatmonkey> should work ona bit
[23:44] <phatmonkey> *in
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[23:44] <Laurenceb> I used to do website admin a few years back :P
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[23:47] <edmoore> Laurenceb: we've all seen your website
[23:47] <Laurenceb> haha
[23:48] <edmoore> One day I'm going to give you some acid and get you to make a website
[23:48] <edmoore> I can't even begin to imagine
[23:49] <hallam> http://durafix.com/ is a fantastic website
[23:49] <hallam> they also sell some cool things
[23:49] <jcoxon> hey henry
[23:50] <hallam> hi James
[23:50] <Laurenceb> http://www.isengard.co.uk/images/JPEGS/S14_RC15-7-08BB%20thermit%20weld%20A.jpg
[23:50] <Laurenceb> hi Henry
[23:50] <hallam> hey
[23:50] <Laurenceb> ^ if you like welding
[23:51] <hallam> oh boy red on cyan
[23:54] <jcoxon> hey has everyone signed up to the google groups?
[23:55] <fnoble> yup
[23:55] <jcoxon> good good
[23:57] <hallam> I've gotta go, see you guys later
[23:58] <fnoble> ye
[23:58] <fnoble> *bye
[23:59] <Laurenceb> cya
[23:59] <Laurenceb> I'll bbl
[00:00] --- Sun Jul 20 2008