highaltitude.log.20080427

[00:00] <natrium42> sounds good
[00:00] <Laurenceb> is there a general format for them?
[00:01] flowolf (n=flowolf@unaffiliated/flowolf) joined #highaltitude.
[00:01] <natrium42> not that i know of
[00:02] <natrium42> there are UML diagrams
[00:02] <natrium42> that show how classes interconnect
[00:02] <Laurenceb> ah, yes I remember you saying
[00:02] <Laurenceb> I though you were talking about these :D
[00:03] <natrium42> hehe
[00:03] <natrium42> they can be useful when you design the system
[00:04] <Laurenceb> yes, it ties your head in knots once it get fairly complex
[00:04] <natrium42> it's considered to be bad practice to start coding without doing design 1st
[00:04] <natrium42> usually design takes longer than the actual coding by a large margin
[00:05] <Laurenceb> by design you mean the different files / functions / datatypes and their interrelations ?
[00:06] <natrium42> yep
[00:06] <natrium42> that's the ideal way
[00:06] <natrium42> but of course in practice...
[00:07] <Laurenceb> interesting, pity we've never had proper programming tutorials here :-(
[00:15] <fnoble> UML is horrific
[00:16] <Laurenceb> lol
[00:16] <fnoble> yes, draw relationship diagrams etc. but do you really need to make a formal standard for the different types of diagrams to use to design software?
[00:16] <fnoble> one that is SO complex it takes up an entire module of our course
[00:16] <Laurenceb> guess not :D
[00:17] <Laurenceb> fnoble: thought you were natural sciences?
[00:17] <fnoble> im with the compscis this year
[00:17] <Laurenceb> interesting
[00:17] <fnoble> to get out of doing geology
[00:17] <fnoble> still do the same physics as everyone else
[00:18] <Laurenceb> geology argg
[00:18] <fnoble> i didnt do chem or anything for a-level so i had few choises out of the courses available
[00:18] <fnoble> and compsci is good
[00:19] <Laurenceb> chemistry is good, learn to make bombs :P
[00:19] <fnoble> shhh
[00:19] <fnoble> your not alowed to use that word anymore
[00:19] <Laurenceb> at 6th form we made a time release HF grenade
[00:20] <Laurenceb> hid it in a cupboard :D
[00:21] <fnoble> does anyone know of a good resource for learning about radio/RF design? preferably practical rather than theoretical presentation
[00:21] <fnoble> naughy Laurenceb
[00:21] <natrium42> bbl
[00:21] natrium42 (n=alexei@72-255-15-97.client.stsn.net) left irc: "pwned!"
[00:22] <Laurenceb> we applied our titration skills to get the timing just right :P
[00:25] <Laurenceb> fnoble : #electronics ?
[00:35] <Laurenceb> hrmf I'm utterly confused
[00:35] <Laurenceb> " find the weak flow parallel to contour lines of f/h"
[00:36] <Laurenceb> I cant even work out how to describe that mathematically
[00:44] fnoble (n=fnoble@fn217.quns.cam.ac.uk) left #highaltitude.
[00:50] flowolf (n=flowolf@unaffiliated/flowolf) left irc: "Leaving"
[00:53] Tigga (n=chatzill@pc-232-235-60.magd.cam.ac.uk) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[01:14] natrium42 (n=alexei@72-255-52-149.client.stsn.net) joined #highaltitude.
[01:28] Laurenceb (n=laurence@dhcp37-133.sthughs.ox.ac.uk) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[02:36] natrium42 (n=alexei@72-255-52-149.client.stsn.net) left irc: "pwned!"
[02:42] natrium42 (n=alexei@72-255-15-97.client.stsn.net) joined #highaltitude.
[03:14] natrium42 (n=alexei@72-255-15-97.client.stsn.net) left irc: "pwned!"
[03:47] Ebola (n=Ebola@unaffiliated/ebola) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[05:40] natrium42 (n=alexei@72-255-52-149.client.stsn.net) joined #highaltitude.
[05:51] natrium42 (n=alexei@72-255-52-149.client.stsn.net) left irc: "pwned!"
[06:53] Laurenceb (n=laurence@dhcp37-133.sthughs.ox.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[07:25] MetaMorfoziS (n=avr@dsl51B6AB50.pool.t-online.hu) joined #highaltitude.
[08:06] jcoxon (n=jcoxon@host86-144-103-14.range86-144.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[08:12] Simon-MPFH (n=simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[08:18] <Cooleo> Any pics from the launch yet guys?:)
[08:20] <Laurenceb> on jcoxon's flickr
[08:21] <Cooleo> Link?:)
[08:23] <Cooleo> Oh wait, Foudn it
[08:24] <Cooleo> Heh, Looks nice :)
[08:27] <jcoxon> the pictures are a bit blurry
[08:27] <jcoxon> had high hopes for the camera, its nice on the ground but obviously doesn't cope too well
[08:27] <jcoxon> have made some calculations
[08:27] <jcoxon> the last picture was probably at an altitude of about 17400m
[08:30] <jcoxon> though thats based on me remembering roughly the period between the pics, i'll time it later
[08:31] <Cooleo> Cool :)
[08:46] jcoxon (n=jcoxon@host86-144-103-14.range86-144.btcentralplus.com) left irc: "Leaving"
[09:09] MeTa (n=avr@dsl51B6AB50.pool.t-online.hu) joined #highaltitude.
[09:09] MetaMorfoziS (n=avr@dsl51B6AB50.pool.t-online.hu) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[09:15] jcoxon (n=jcoxon@host86-144-103-14.range86-144.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[10:00] Tigga (n=chatzill@pc-232-235-60.magd.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[10:31] flowolf (n=flowolf@unaffiliated/flowolf) joined #highaltitude.
[10:36] Laurenceb (n=laurence@dhcp37-133.sthughs.ox.ac.uk) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[10:51] simon__ (n=simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[10:51] Simon-MPFH (n=simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[11:22] MeTa (n=avr@dsl51B6AB50.pool.t-online.hu) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[11:22] edmoore (n=edmoore@pomegranate.chu.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[11:23] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[11:28] flowolf (n=flowolf@unaffiliated/flowolf) left irc: "Leaving"
[11:29] <edmoore> hi Cooleo
[11:31] edmoore (n=edmoore@pomegranate.chu.cam.ac.uk) left irc:
[11:34] MetaMorfoziS (n=avr@dsl51B6AB50.pool.t-online.hu) joined #highaltitude.
[12:31] MetaMorfoziS (n=avr@dsl51B6AB50.pool.t-online.hu) left irc: "Most akkor mit csinalt aki miert lepett ki?"
[12:45] Hiena (n=Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) joined #highaltitude.
[13:11] <Cooleo> Hey Edmoore
[13:11] <Cooleo> And hes gone. My bad.
[13:30] Laurenceb (n=laurence@dhcp37-133.sthughs.ox.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[13:44] RocketBoy (n=grunge@217.47.75.27) joined #highaltitude.
[13:45] <Laurenceb> hello RocketBoy
[13:46] <RocketBoy> yo
[13:47] <RocketBoy> the ukhas wiki is playing up again - 4 me anyway
[13:47] jcoxon (n=jcoxon@host86-144-103-14.range86-144.btcentralplus.com) left irc: "Leaving"
[13:47] <Laurenceb> yes
[13:47] <Laurenceb> me too
[13:51] MetaMorfoziS (n=avr@dsl51B6AB50.pool.t-online.hu) joined #highaltitude.
[13:54] <Laurenceb> back up now
[13:56] <Laurenceb> RocketBoy: have you seen my parafoil code?
[13:59] <Laurenceb> going to reboot. bbl
[13:59] <RocketBoy> yep
[13:59] <Laurenceb> spot any errors? your pretty good with c
[14:00] <Laurenceb> I'm thinking of moving all the processor specific stuff to main.h using some macros
[14:02] <RocketBoy> I didn't read it that deeply - just interested in the filtering stuff
[14:02] <Laurenceb> it seems to work well when i try with octave
[14:03] <RocketBoy> good coding is a bit of an art IMO
[14:03] <Laurenceb> so i compiled kalman.c and matrix.c and used them together with some octave code that generated fake sensor readings
[14:03] simon__ (n=simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) left irc: "Leaving"
[14:03] <RocketBoy> I guess I should write somthing about it sometime
[14:03] <Laurenceb> thats how the graphs on the wiki were done
[14:03] <RocketBoy> likewise radio
[14:04] <Laurenceb> its nice to be able to make it portable
[14:04] <Laurenceb> then test it on a pc
[14:05] <Laurenceb> I might try that for the whole project, but I'd need to get my head around makefiles for linux projects
[14:05] <Laurenceb> guess its almost the same as for avr-gcc
[14:05] <RocketBoy> yeah - there is very little excuse for not making most C code portable - even allowing for the differences of processors
[14:06] <Laurenceb> it would be pretty cool to take your kml to nmea code, combine it with a python/octave script to give realistic data files, then run it through the control code
[14:07] <Laurenceb> I used that technique on the aerosol payload
[14:09] <RocketBoy> yeah - a good test harned
[14:09] <RocketBoy> harness
[14:09] <RocketBoy> is needed
[14:09] <Laurenceb> actually, if I replaced iom168.h with one of my own making
[14:09] <RocketBoy> it would be good to write somthing to simulate a parafoil/glider response
[14:10] <Laurenceb> I could "simulate" the processor
[14:10] <Laurenceb> so write macros for the different registers
[14:10] Simon-MPFH (n=simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[14:10] <RocketBoy> and fold that back into the flight simulation
[14:10] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:10] <Laurenceb> that could be really useful
[14:11] <Laurenceb> just a header file where you can add macros, just have a load of placeholders for the useful registers
[14:11] <RocketBoy> the PIC SDK includes a simulator - that inteprets (emulates) the PIC code - v good for checking timing
[14:11] <Laurenceb> theres a lot of avr simulators
[14:11] <Laurenceb> but its hard to use them to simulate complex hardware
[14:13] <Laurenceb> so, take your avr project, remove avr specific header files, add the "fake_avr.h"
[14:13] <Laurenceb> together with "interface_functions.c" and your off
[14:15] <Laurenceb> interface_functions could open a couple of files for uart in out and other hardware, or maybe use pipes to talk to more detailed simulation hardware in say octave
[14:17] <Laurenceb> this could be very useful, but its a bit of work to build, and it would be a matter of setting it up correctly - its not like a simulator that models all the processes in the uC]
[14:19] <Laurenceb> right, rebooting.brb
[14:20] Laurenceb (n=laurence@dhcp37-133.sthughs.ox.ac.uk) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[14:20] Cooleo (n=probiker@host86-132-15-119.range86-132.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
[14:23] RocketBoy (n=grunge@217.47.75.27) left irc: "Leaving"
[14:35] Laurenceb (n=Laurence@dhcp38-010.sthughs.ox.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[15:29] Tigga (n=chatzill@pc-232-235-60.magd.cam.ac.uk) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[15:32] MetaMorfoziS (n=avr@dsl51B6AB50.pool.t-online.hu) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[15:32] MetaMorfoziS (n=avr@dsl51B6AB50.pool.t-online.hu) joined #highaltitude.
[16:02] MetaMorfoziS (n=avr@dsl51B6AB50.pool.t-online.hu) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[16:06] Tigga (n=chatzill@pc-232-235-60.magd.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[16:16] edmoore (n=edmoore@88.212.167.121) joined #highaltitude.
[16:20] MetaMorfoziS (n=avr@3e44bf13.adsl.enternet.hu) joined #highaltitude.
[16:22] <Laurenceb> hello edmoore
[16:24] <edmoore> hi Laurenceb
[16:25] <Laurenceb> theres a tqfp-48 AVR32 :P
[16:25] <Laurenceb> about £5 from digikey
[16:26] <Laurenceb> I've just been reading the datasheet, 23ma @ 1.8v , 60MHz
[16:27] <Laurenceb> it looks pretty horrendous, but most of the tricky stuff is related to the usb2.0 port, it doesnt look much hard than 8 bit avr to use the other hardware
[16:29] <Laurenceb> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=AT32UC3B164-AUT-ND
[16:30] <Laurenceb> £4.50, only twice the price of a mega168
[16:52] rcaron (n=rcaron@c-75-68-113-23.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) joined #highaltitude.
[16:53] rcaron (n=rcaron@c-75-68-113-23.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) left #highaltitude.
[16:53] rcaron (n=rcaron@c-75-68-113-23.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) joined #highaltitude.
[16:54] <rcaron> so we had a launch yesterday. because of some seriously under-filling of the balloon, a flight that was supposed to last 67 minutes lasted 5 hours
[16:54] jatkins (n=jatkins@79-73-82-209.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) joined #highaltitude.
[16:55] <jatkins> hi all
[16:55] <rcaron> but the winds were with us, so it went south so we could recover it instead of east where it would have ditched in the atlantic
[16:55] jatkins (n=jatkins@79-73-82-209.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) left irc: Client Quit
[16:59] <rcaron> burst at 81kft
[17:27] <edmoore> wow
[17:27] <edmoore> that's an amazingly slow ascent
[17:35] <rcaron> yeah, we noticed
[17:35] <rcaron> this was just supposed to be a morning thing. we didn't get back to campus until 9pm
[17:36] <rcaron> we used the APRS packet network though. worked amazingly
[17:36] <rcaron> it was on 144.39mhz, our backup radio on 464.15mhz was more problematic
[17:37] <rcaron> we could hear it great, but for some reason no one could decode it
[17:38] <edmoore> aprs too?
[17:56] <rcaron> yeah, same thing, different hardware. big difference is that everybody listens on the 144 frequency and there are digipeters
[17:56] <rcaron> there really isn't any infrastructure for 446
[17:57] <rcaron> (i said 464 out of dyslexia. i promise we were inside the ham band)
[18:15] <Laurenceb> rcaron: counds cool
[18:15] <Laurenceb> did you take photos?
[18:17] <rcaron> yeah, we had a camera on board, i don't have the photos though
[18:17] <rcaron> about 850 pictures if i remember correctly
[18:18] <Laurenceb> nice
[18:23] <rcaron> we need to make the camera last longer somehow. only got two hours out of it
[18:27] Nick change: Tigga -> Tigga|Food
[18:32] <edmoore> what camera and grab rate?
[18:36] <rcaron> nothing special. some old junker with an XD card that one of the club members donated. grab rate every 10 seconds or so (yes, clearly reducing that rate would help out on the runtime)
[18:42] <rcaron> some freshman build a big RC timing circuit and then disapeared. we haven't felt like touching it yet
[18:43] <edmoore> lol
[18:43] <edmoore> well the one we flew on sat was just a 555 set up to pop the trigger every 20secs
[18:43] <edmoore> 3mpx camera, 2gb xD card
[18:43] <edmoore> we = jcoxon, infact
[18:44] <rcaron> not too shabby
[18:45] <edmoore> the camera has something wrong with it though
[18:45] <edmoore> all the pics were out of focus
[18:47] <rcaron> that's too bad
[18:54] <edmoore> what was your flight computer?
[18:55] <rcaron> didn't have one. no cutdowns or anything to command
[18:56] <rcaron> the beeline (gps transmitter), gps, aprs encoder, old 2m radio, camera, timer, and loads of batteries
[18:56] <rcaron> that, plus the external antennas, was our entire package
[18:57] <Laurenceb> interesting approach
[18:57] <Laurenceb> we tend to go with much more compact radio kit, primarily due to our 10mw limit
[18:58] <Laurenceb> in the US you can stick a multi watt thing on there :P
[19:00] <rcaron> oh, and we did
[19:00] <rcaron> part of this run was really to prove conclusively which radio worked better
[19:00] <Laurenceb> I see
[19:00] <rcaron> unfortunately, the cheaper (and larger/heavier one) did
[19:00] <Laurenceb> :-(
[19:00] <rcaron> yeah, kind of interesting
[19:01] <rcaron> but yeah, we were pushing about 2.5W out of each radio >_>
[19:01] <Laurenceb> I'd be worried about rfi
[19:04] <rcaron> we hung our 2m antenna about 10 feet under the payload
[19:05] <rcaron> the 440 antenna was mounted right on the side
[19:05] <rcaron> and yes, the 2m ant got a little beat up on landing
[19:06] <Laurenceb> it had done its job by then :D
[19:06] <rcaron> too true
[19:06] <edmoore> jame's antenna fell off about 2 mins after launch, bizarrely
[19:07] <rcaron> how could that happen?
[19:07] <Laurenceb> my thought as well
[19:09] <edmoore> I'm not sure, he'll investiage, I'm sure
[19:09] <edmoore> it survived the absolute chaos of launch
[19:09] <edmoore> which was pretty violent with the multiple balloon, high lift design
[19:10] <edmoore> and then just dropped off in stable flight
[19:10] <edmoore> maybe fatigued? I dunno
[19:11] <rcaron> crazy
[19:25] <rcaron> 5hrs worth of packets taken at 10second intervals takes some time to clean up
[19:28] Nick change: Tigga|Food -> Tigga
[19:54] <edmoore> lol
[20:02] Tigga (n=chatzill@pc-232-235-60.magd.cam.ac.uk) left irc: "Reconnecting&"
[20:02] Tigga (n=chatzill@pc-232-235-60.magd.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[20:09] <edmoore> vint cerf looks an awful lot like the architect of the matrix
[20:10] <edmoore> surely it must be based on him
[20:46] <Laurenceb> http://tinyurl.com/5pxwzw
[21:09] Laurence1 (n=Laurence@dhcp38-010.sthughs.ox.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[21:21] <rcaron> its amazing how robust the APRS network is. most of these GPS frames are redundant, i.e. heard by multiple digipeters
[21:27] Laurenceb (n=Laurence@dhcp38-010.sthughs.ox.ac.uk) left irc: Connection timed out
[21:30] Simon-MPFH (n=simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) left irc: "Leaving"
[22:06] Tigga (n=chatzill@pc-232-235-60.magd.cam.ac.uk) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[22:07] flowolf (n=flowolf@unaffiliated/flowolf) joined #highaltitude.
[22:09] flowolf_ (n=flowolf@host240-220-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #highaltitude.
[22:09] flowolf_ (n=flowolf@host240-220-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[22:15] Tigga (n=chatzill@pc-232-235-60.magd.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[22:27] Hiena (n=Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) left irc: "-=Alkoholmentes-sör és repülõgép-szimulátor, biztos út a guminõ felé=-"
[22:32] MetaMorfoziS (n=avr@3e44bf13.adsl.enternet.hu) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[23:13] flowolf (n=flowolf@unaffiliated/flowolf) left irc: "Leaving"
[23:17] Nick change: Laurence1 -> Laurenceb
[00:00] --- Mon Apr 28 2008