highaltitude.log.20080416

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[00:08] <jcoxon> natrium42, you around?
[00:10] <jcoxon> you know i was having problems with the gm862-gps module detecting its sim card
[00:10] <jcoxon> well the same issue cropped up with both my gm862-quad-py modules
[00:11] <jcoxon> so i swapped them from my old dev board my second breakout board which is my flight board and they work
[00:11] <jcoxon> so just need to repair teh gm862-gps damage i did with my exploratory surgery on the sim card socket
[00:11] <jcoxon> and it actually might work
[00:11] <natrium42> jcoxon, ooh, great to hear that
[00:11] <jcoxon> how weird
[00:11] <jcoxon> there doesn't seem to be any difference
[00:12] <jcoxon> but on one board it can't detect teh sim card, the other it can
[00:12] <natrium42> i may need a gm862-gps module in a month or two
[00:12] <jcoxon> natrium42, just say when
[00:12] <natrium42> yep, i will
[00:12] <natrium42> gotta run for radio class
[00:12] <natrium42> see ya
[00:12] <jcoxon> no problem
[00:12] <jcoxon> i got to sleep
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[14:34] <Laurenceb> hello edmoore
[14:34] <edmoore> hi
[14:35] <Laurenceb> the kalman filter is working :P
[14:36] <Laurenceb> I'm working on an extended kalman now
[14:36] <Laurenceb> what do you think of the graphs?
[14:36] <edmoore> i don't see any graphs
[14:36] <edmoore> this is irc
[14:37] <Laurenceb> on the wiki
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[14:45] <jatkins> hi all
[14:53] <Laurenceb> edmoore: you there?
[14:54] <Laurenceb> you see the damping factor in my code, I set that to be very low, but as a parafoil has low moment of intertia in relation to the torque on the wing when its turning, that factor will actually be higher.
[14:55] <Laurenceb> I think this means the control factor can be set higher
[14:55] <Laurenceb> the reason its got a bit of lag in the graphs is that the filter doesnt "think" that it should be turning, hopefully a bit of realistic control input will help
[14:56] <Laurenceb> as will an extended kalman, where the drag can be approximated bettwer
[14:56] <Laurenceb> *better
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[15:32] <Laurenceb> arrggg parafoils are complicated
[15:36] <Laurenceb> edmoore: about?
[15:45] <edmoore> lb, sorry had to pick up my sister
[15:45] <edmoore> hi jatkins
[15:45] <jatkins> hi
[15:46] <edmoore> how's it going?
[15:47] <Laurenceb> me? not so bad
[15:47] <Laurenceb> I've been modelling parafoils
[15:47] <Laurenceb> turns out if you look at a corkscrewing reference frame its quite interesting
[15:48] <Laurenceb> if I make a lot of assumptions, for C of G shift its actually linear
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[15:48] <Laurenceb> havent looked at brake lines yet, but I'm guessing that wont be
[15:49] <Laurenceb> you have to assume radius of turn << wingspan, and bank angle is << pi
[15:52] <Laurenceb> hmm in fact, if drag coefficient of the wingtip( and hence torque), is a linear function of servo position, brake lines is linear as well under the same assumptions
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[15:55] <mc-> edmoore, this evening?
[15:56] <edmoore> no, not you, jatkins :p
[15:56] <mc-> are you free this evening?
[15:56] <edmoore> Laurenceb: you're severely limiting yourself if you want to keep bank angle << pi
[15:57] <Laurenceb> hehe
[15:57] <Laurenceb> true
[15:57] <Laurenceb> but sin(x)~x for fairly large angles
[15:57] <edmoore> mc-: yes i think so - what time suits?
[15:59] <mc-> whenever
[15:59] <mc-> 7pm Bramley?
[16:01] <edmoore> is 6pm more doable?
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[16:06] <mc-> 6pm ok
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[16:10] <mc-> edmoore?
[16:11] <edmoore> ok that's good. where in bramley?
[16:11] <mc-> same place as before?
[16:11] <mc-> is 6.20pm OK, as traffic around 6pm is bad
[16:16] <mc-> edmoore
[16:16] <edmoore> lol sorry, i keep forgetting to check back
[16:16] <edmoore> packing as i'm going up tomorrow
[16:17] <edmoore> yes, 6.20 is fine
[16:17] <edmoore> same place is before is that pub?
[16:17] <mc-> yes
[16:17] <edmoore> what was it called? i forget
[16:17] <mc-> can't remeber
[16:17] <edmoore> oh well, will find it
[16:17] <edmoore> i'll be in the rear carpark
[16:17] <mc-> ok
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[16:35] <edmoore> I hope there's enough room in my car for these things
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[17:12] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[17:13] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[17:14] <edmoore> how's it going?
[17:14] <jcoxon> not bad thanks
[17:14] <jcoxon> finished my project essay
[17:14] <jcoxon> and have been revising for my sign language exam tomorrow
[17:14] <jcoxon> got more exams next week
[17:14] <jcoxon> urgh
[17:15] <jcoxon> you?
[17:21] <edmoore> sign language
[17:21] <edmoore> blimey
[17:21] <edmoore> i was just struggling with bank on the phone
[17:22] <jcoxon> :-) its only beginners sign language
[17:22] <jcoxon> not too difficult
[17:23] <edmoore> am packing now
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[17:24] <jcoxon> i've finally sorted out my gps parser
[17:24] <jcoxon> its suprisingly difficult
[17:25] <jcoxon> grabbing a random section of data
[17:25] <jcoxon> and searching through for a nice string to use
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[17:29] <mc-> edmoore, don't leave just yet
[17:29] <edmoore> oh?
[17:29] <mc-> I haven't got a car
[17:29] <edmoore> lol
[17:29] <mc-> will know in 20 mins
[17:29] <edmoore> ok cool
[17:29] <edmoore> well dad is cooking a family dinner this eve, as both my sister and I are off tomorrow, so there's a fairly hard upper limit on when I can leave
[17:30] <mc-> I should be there
[17:30] <jatkins> mc-: I've made you box, but I think the dimensions you gave are wrong
[17:30] <mc-> bbl
[17:30] <jatkins> you said 4cm x 3cm x 2cm (I'm assuming length x width x height)
[17:30] <jatkins> that's tiny
[17:31] <mc-> yes, it's tiny
[17:31] <jatkins> ok
[17:31] <jatkins> sorry, thought it was for the whole payload ;)
[17:31] <jatkins> do you want polysytrene on the outside?
[17:31] <jatkins> polystyrene*
[17:33] <jatkins> made you the box*
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[17:34] <fnoble> hello
[17:34] <jatkins> hi
[17:44] <edmoore> mc-: the latest I can practically do is leave at 7 for 7.30-7.35
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[17:46] <jatkins> RocketBoy: you about?
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[17:50] <mc-> it's on, I've got the car
[17:50] <mc-> leaving in a few mins
[17:50] <edmoore> awesome. will leave now and be there about 25 past
[17:50] <mc-> see you there.
[17:50] <edmoore> 25past - half past
[17:50] <edmoore> byeeeeeeee
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[17:57] <Hiena> Good evening!
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[18:05] <jatkins> hi Hiena
[18:06] <Hiena> How things goes?
[18:08] <jatkins> good, you?
[18:24] <Hiena> Tired.
[18:24] <Hiena> I need a manpower for my projects.
[18:24] <jatkins> lol
[18:24] <jatkins> are you working on a HAB now?
[18:25] <Hiena> High altitude UL.
[18:25] <jatkins> cool
[18:26] <jatkins> what's UL?
[18:26] <Hiena> What i really need is sponsors, lot of sponsors, qualified welder, and double turbocharged motorcycle engine.
[18:27] <jatkins> wow
[18:28] <jatkins> what are the mission objectives?
[18:29] <Hiena> It will be a low surface loaded, flying wing, with a pressurized cocpit. The target is 14.000m at first with 50 kg payload, and 18.000m without payload.
[18:29] <jatkins> cool
[18:31] <Hiena> The main purpose is building a low-budget near space aiplane, and showing middle finger to the big research labs.
[18:31] <jatkins> so it will glide back?
[18:31] <jatkins> lol!
[18:31] <Hiena> No. It will flying on-power.
[18:31] <jatkins> ok
[18:31] <jatkins> battery or solar powered?
[18:33] <Hiena> Any power failures over 4000m means immediately break for the flight, due the safety reasons. The estimated power requirement is 100-130HP at sea level. On altitude only 25 will be enough.
[18:34] <jatkins> cool
[18:34] <jatkins> so if the power fails the plane stops flying and drops?
[18:34] <Hiena> I want to use some charged motorcycle engine, because it has the lowest weigh/power ratio.
[18:35] <jatkins> ok
[18:36] <Hiena> Nope. If the power fails, the flight must me canceled, because the whole life support running on the engine's generator.
[18:36] <jatkins> this is a manned plane?
[18:36] <Hiena> Yes.
[18:36] <jatkins> sorry, diidn't realize that
[18:36] <jatkins> this is really cool
[18:36] <jatkins> good luck
[18:37] <Hiena> Basically a tube and fabric flying wing, with pressurized cabin.
[18:38] <jatkins> I hope you succeed, it's amazing
[18:38] <jatkins> will it have an autopilot or be controlled manually?
[18:41] <Hiena> No autopilot. It must be in the MTO 450kg limit, and we are on the limit of the aviable structural weight. Only the life support weights 60kg, the pilot is 80, the engine is 70 kg, the fuel 40 kg, The transpoders and the other safety gadgets other 40 kg.
[18:41] <jatkins> ok
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[18:44] <Hiena> The reserve parachute, is 25 kg. The scuba tank for the oxigen is 23 kg. I have a nice Mi-24 pitot-tube, but we have to lft it out, because it's 3 kg.
[18:45] <jatkins> ok
[18:47] <Hiena> We calculated the wing with full carbon-fibre spar and leading edge. It would be only 60 kg for a 32 sq.m wing (drool), but it could be 10000EUR, which is same as the whole airframe cost with a classic tube&fabric building.
[18:47] <jatkins> ok
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[18:48] <jatkins> do you have a target launch date?
[18:48] <jatkins> hi lb
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[18:49] <Hiena> Somewhere around 2013.
[18:50] <Hiena> But seeing the current team and the budget, i guess it will never fly.
[18:53] <jatkins> don't give up; I'm sure it will
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[20:23] <jcoxon> evening Rocketboy1
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[20:24] <Rocketboy1> hiya jcoxon
[20:25] <Rocketboy1> I tried that IR filter - what a difference - amazing
[20:25] <Laurenceb> hi there
[20:25] <jcoxon> nice
[20:25] <jcoxon> so it tracks?
[20:25] <Laurenceb> what camera are you using?
[20:26] <Rocketboy1> its just a webcam
[20:26] <Rocketboy1> CCD - 1.3MP
[20:26] <Laurenceb> ah interesting
[20:26] <Rocketboy1> I was just replacing the lense with somthing "longer"
[20:27] <Rocketboy1> but it didn't have a IR filter like the original one did
[20:27] <jatkins> rocketboy: just sent you an email
[20:27] <Rocketboy1> jatkins: I just replied
[20:28] <Rocketboy1> ;-)
[20:28] <jatkins> lol, thanks
[20:28] <Rocketboy1> so i added an IR filter from an old video camera
[20:28] <Rocketboy1> made all the difference
[20:29] <Laurenceb> neat
[20:29] <jatkins> sorry, I meant I sent another one
[20:29] <jcoxon> Rocketboy1, is this just so we can view it on a laptop or will it do more?
[20:29] <Rocketboy1> oh sorry OK
[20:35] <jatkins> rocketboy: thanks
[20:35] <Rocketboy1> yep - the idea is effectivly a web cam telescope to watch balloon/payloads
[20:37] <jcoxon> http://www.lavrsen.dk/twiki/bin/view/Motion/WebHome
[20:37] <Rocketboy1> Jcoxon - Do you know what the power of the binoculars we were using at the FHLAP-2 launch?
[20:39] <jcoxon> hmmmmm, i can't remember
[20:39] <jcoxon> edmoore i think knows
[20:43] <jcoxon> if not i can email doug and ask
[20:47] <Rocketboy1> Yep that would be a help - the current setup is equivent to 200x telescope
[20:50] <Akadecca> anyone know anything about low pass lc filters?
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[20:51] <Laurenceb> Akadecca: use some complex numbers :D
[20:51] <akawaka> url plz!!!1
[20:51] <akawaka> http://web.mit.edu/bgelb/www/balloon/hfbeacon/pa.png
[20:51] <akawaka> so the filter there at the end is a low pass filter
[20:52] <akawaka> but that configuration of C101 and C102 is not familiar to me
[20:52] <Laurenceb> argg
[20:52] <Laurenceb> no no no
[20:52] Action: Laurenceb cant handle RF
[20:52] <Rocketboy1> its a matching filter - a pi-tank
[20:53] <akawaka> ?
[20:53] <Rocketboy1> (plus some other bits)
[20:53] <Laurenceb> so your logic IC is a buffer
[20:53] <Laurenceb> dont you have to impedance match the transistor stage to the output?
[20:53] <Rocketboy1> it matches the output impedance of the FETS (probably a few ohms) into the 50 ohm co-ax
[20:54] <Laurenceb> is the 47pf cap part of that?
[20:54] <Rocketboy1> exactly
[20:54] <Rocketboy1> I doubt it
[20:55] <Laurenceb> so the two inductors and two caps is a pi tank?
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[20:56] <Rocketboy1> i'd say C103 L103 C104 are the pi tank
[20:56] <Rocketboy1> C102 L102 are some form of band pass filter
[20:56] <akawaka> aren't they all just part of the low pass filter to filter the harmonics on the square wave?
[20:57] <Laurenceb> C102 L102 do that dont they?
[20:57] <akawaka> i assume C101, C102, C103, C104, L102 and L103 are all part of a low pass filter, that is also doing the impedance matching?
[20:58] <Rocketboy1> I'd say (and this is a guess) C102/L102 are to remove the harmonics and C103 L103 C104 are matching
[20:58] <Rocketboy1> but its all inter-depandant stuff
[20:58] <akawaka> i see
[20:59] <akawaka> trying to work out how to adapt it to different carrier frequencies
[21:00] <Rocketboy1> C101 and the oupput capacitance of the FETS will also be part filtering and form part of the output impedance of the FETS
[21:00] <Rocketboy1> yeah I guess its a matter of flogging through the matchs
[21:00] <Rocketboy1> maths
[21:01] <akawaka> C105 and L101 are to filter dc?
[21:02] <Rocketboy1> There is some stuff on this in the ARRL handbook
[21:02] <Rocketboy1> c105 is de-coupling
[21:02] <Rocketboy1> and L101 is the DC feed to the FETS
[21:02] <Rocketboy1> (which presents a high impedance to RF)
[21:06] <Rocketboy1> BBL
[21:07] <jatkins> rocketboy: how much are the 350g balloons?
[21:08] <Rocketboy1> £8 + postage (free delivery at launches I'm at)
[21:08] <jatkins> ok, cool
[21:09] <jcoxon> jatkins, so when you going to launch?
[21:09] <jatkins> should that be good enough for a < 1 kg payload?
[21:09] <jatkins> I'm *hoping* to this weekend
[21:09] <jatkins> if permission is ok
[21:10] <jatkins> does it matter that I haven't done a launch before?
[21:10] <Rocketboy1> sure - you can use the wiki calculator to work out the burst height
[21:10] <jatkins> ok
[21:10] <jcoxon> jatkins, oh, have you asked if people are around!
[21:10] <jatkins> nope
[21:10] <jatkins> lol
[21:10] <jcoxon> Rocketboy1, who's on the permission?
[21:11] <akawaka> why do the fets need L101?
[21:11] <Laurenceb> jatkins: any photos?
[21:11] <Rocketboy1> I'll email the name
[21:11] <jatkins> not really, some arduino ones on flickr
[21:11] <Laurenceb> akawaka: to stop RF going all over the place
[21:11] <jatkins> flickr.com/photos/joshatkins/sets/
[21:12] <jatkins> http://flickr.com/photos/joshatkins/sets/72157603539946818/
[21:12] <Rocketboy1> L101 is needed for power to get to the FETS - but to stop the RF getting up the power supply
[21:12] <Rocketboy1> BBL
[21:13] <akawaka> thanks Rocketboy1
[21:13] <jatkins> cya, thanks
[21:13] <Laurenceb> where did you get the arduino?
[21:13] <jatkins> robosavvy.com
[21:13] <Rocketboy1> BTW - expect it to take at least 28 days to get a permit for a new site
[21:13] <jatkins> oh
[21:14] <jatkins> I was gonna come up to cambridge
[21:14] <jatkins> edmoore said that'd be best to avoid it getting blown out to sea
[21:14] <jatkins> I'm in Hampshire
[21:14] <jcoxon> jatkins, this isn't really how it works
[21:14] <jcoxon> basically the permission we have is for individuals
[21:14] <jcoxon> however most of the time one of those people is present
[21:15] <jcoxon> so if you want to launch you need to make sure someone will be there
[21:15] <jcoxon> that said
[21:15] <jatkins> oh, ok
[21:15] <jcoxon> the permission runs out at the end of the month
[21:15] <jcoxon> and we are waiting on a renewal
[21:15] <jatkins> is it problematic because of the airspace regulations change?
[21:17] <jcoxon> i'm not sure its come into effect yet
[21:17] <jatkins> ok
[21:18] <jatkins> is anyone around this weekend and free to come to a launch?
[21:18] <jatkins> in Cambridge
[21:18] <jcoxon> sadly i can't
[21:18] <jcoxon> but i'm launching the saturday afterwards
[21:18] <jatkins> np
[21:19] <jatkins> ok, I might leave it till then
[21:19] <jatkins> if it's ok with you for me to launch at the same time
[21:19] <jcoxon> jatkins, let me have a look at the window
[21:19] <jcoxon> jatkins, as in the weather
[21:19] <jatkins> ok, thanks
[21:19] <jcoxon> jatkins, yeah its fine
[21:19] <jcoxon> its alot easier
[21:19] <jatkins> cool
[21:19] <jatkins> is yours a Firefly launch?
[21:20] <jcoxon> yeah
[21:20] <jatkins> cool
[21:20] <jatkins> it's more sensible really as I've still got to order some stuff
[21:21] <jcoxon> jatkins, the first rule of ballooning - don't rush
[21:22] <jatkins> yeah
[21:22] <jatkins> this weekend would have been a bit ambitious to say the least
[21:22] <jatkins> :)
[21:23] <jatkins> so do the CAA put out a NOTAM and give you a launch window?
[21:24] <jatkins> or is it just when the weather is good?
[21:24] <jcoxon> we have a 6 month window
[21:24] <jcoxon> on weekends
[21:25] <edmoore> the CAA are a bit loose with it
[21:25] <jcoxon> we call them before hand to inform them
[21:25] <jatkins> ok
[21:25] <edmoore> they'll give you several months, or just a specific day
[21:25] <jatkins> ok
[21:28] <jatkins> g2g
[21:28] <jatkins> thanks rocketboy, jcoxon, edmoore
[21:29] <jatkins> cya
[21:29] <edmoore> cya
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[21:29] <jcoxon> np
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[21:42] <edmoore> glad that was sorted
[22:00] <Laurenceb> if I have a buffer of size n, and I try to access the n+1 th element in c, what happens?
[22:00] <Laurenceb> s/buffer/array
[22:08] <edmoore> depends on the compiler. but in theory nothing. it's called a bug. I think Ada catches that kind of stuff for you
[22:09] <Laurenceb> if I try to write it, will I end up overwriting stuff?
[22:10] <Rocketboy1> yep
[22:11] <Rocketboy1> normally it will be the next declared variable (but varies)
[22:11] <Laurenceb> not nice :(
[22:11] <Rocketboy1> so if you have int i[128]; int j; and you write to i[128] then normally you will write to j
[22:12] <Rocketboy1> whats not nice about it what do you want the runtime to do check each time you calcualte an address?
[22:13] <Rocketboy1> if you write to i[128] explicity some compilers will pick it up - but if is calculated at run time then ithe compiler cant.
[22:14] <Laurenceb> true
[22:14] <Rocketboy1> i.e j = 128; i[j] = 73;
[22:14] <Rocketboy1> the runtime would be too slow if it added that sort of check
[22:15] <Laurenceb> yes, but I'll add one in my gps code
[22:15] <Rocketboy1> if you want that sort of checking use ASSERT
[22:15] <Laurenceb> how?
[22:15] <Rocketboy1> or put in the code directly
[22:15] <Rocketboy1> ASSERT(j < 128);
[22:16] <Rocketboy1> BBL
[22:16] <Laurenceb> ah
[22:16] <Laurenceb> in the header?
[22:16] <Laurenceb> k
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[22:24] <Laurenceb> bbl
[22:25] <jcoxon> night all
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[22:50] <akawaka> Laurenceb: use asserts liberally
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[00:00] --- Thu Apr 17 2008