highaltitude.log.20080413

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[11:07] <jcoxon> morning jatkins
[11:08] <jatkins> hi
[11:08] <jcoxon> hows the payload?
[11:08] <jatkins> good, thanks
[11:08] <jatkins> finished the radar reflector yesterday, edmoore explained how to do it
[11:09] <jcoxon> oh cool
[11:09] <jcoxon> we never really use a radar reflector
[11:09] <jatkins> oh right
[11:09] <jatkins> so you don't have to have one?
[11:10] <jcoxon> no, rocketboy made one and we launched it
[11:10] <jcoxon> but we lost that payload
[11:10] <jatkins> oh
[11:10] <jcoxon> but there is no harm in having one!
[11:10] <jatkins> yup
[11:10] <jatkins> btw, I was just wondering about getting CAA permission
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[11:21] <jatkins> so if the wind isn't bad
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[11:31] <jcoxon> yes
[11:31] <jcoxon> to avoid the risks of deploying
[11:32] <jatkins> yup
[11:32] <jatkins> I guess if it didn't have a parachute the wind could blow it off in a certain direction and the CAA might get concerned it could hit a plane
[11:33] <jcoxon> its not that
[11:33] <jatkins> oh
[11:33] <jcoxon> its more that its going to pick up a lot of speed
[11:33] <jcoxon> (is this a glider or a payload?)
[11:33] <jatkins> sorry, glider
[11:33] <jcoxon> well its the same, it the speed, going to hit the ground hard
[11:33] <jatkins> yep
[11:34] <jcoxon> unless there are some good banking manouvers
[11:34] <jcoxon> basically if it works it'll be fine
[11:34] <jatkins> roll?
[11:34] <jcoxon> if it doesn't then its a problem
[11:34] <jatkins> ok
[11:34] <jatkins> but at 30km-15km there's not very much air for drag to slow it down, even with a parachute?
[11:35] <jcoxon> there is some
[11:35] <jatkins> but 90% is below 15km?
[11:35] <jcoxon> but there is some :-)
[11:35] <jatkins> yeah :d
[11:36] <jatkins> :D*
[11:36] <jatkins> maybe deploy a drogue chute on touchdown?
[11:36] <jatkins> like the shuttle
[11:36] <jcoxon> well as you probably won't be landing nicely, deploy just before
[11:36] <jatkins> yeah
[11:36] <jatkins> but if you had a mini-runway
[11:36] <jatkins> sort of thing :)
[11:37] <jcoxon> jatkins, you've got to get the damn thing down first
[11:37] <jatkins> yeah
[11:37] <jcoxon> landing it on a mini-airstrip
[11:37] <jatkins> sort of
[11:37] <jatkins> just a diy one
[11:37] <jatkins> *theoretically*
[11:37] <jcoxon> hmmmmm
[11:37] <jcoxon> hehe
[11:37] <jatkins> lol
[11:37] <jcoxon> maybe one day
[11:37] <jatkins> so it could land with wheels
[11:38] <jatkins> on the nose and wings
[11:38] <jatkins> let's say you cutdown at 30 km
[11:38] <jatkins> then drop without a parachute to 10 km, to get clear of planes
[11:38] <jatkins> then glide using the airfoil for drag to 0.5 km
[11:38] <jatkins> then deploy landing gear/wheels and on touchdown deploy a drag chute
[11:39] <jcoxon> would be very impressive
[11:39] <jcoxon> but
[11:39] <jcoxon> i'm not sure its possible
[11:39] <jatkins> probably not
[11:39] <jatkins> but it would be cool to try
[11:39] <jcoxon> haha
[11:39] <jatkins> :D
[11:39] <jcoxon> but an adapted version
[11:39] <jcoxon> might work
[11:39] <jatkins> yep
[11:39] <jatkins> I don't see how the CAA could complain then
[11:39] <jcoxon> cut at 30km
[11:39] <jcoxon> drogue down to 10km
[11:40] <jcoxon> glide
[11:40] <jcoxon> at 1km deploy main parachute
[11:40] <jcoxon> land
[11:40] <jatkins> yeah
[11:40] <jatkins> and cut off the drogue parachute before beginning to glide?
[11:40] <jcoxon> yeah
[11:40] <jatkins> yeah
[11:40] <jatkins> that would probably be possible
[11:40] <jcoxon> the drogue will keep the payload in place
[11:40] <jatkins> I think we could try a very small prototype/demonstrator one
[11:40] <jatkins> yep
[11:41] <jcoxon> as in it'll stop it tumbling
[11:41] <jatkins> yeah
[11:41] <jatkins> so it's like an uncontrolled payload for that range as far as the CAA is concerned
[11:41] <jcoxon> sort of
[11:41] <jcoxon> i mean the CAA are concerned about all aerospace
[11:41] <jcoxon> not just commercial jets
[11:42] <jatkins> but isn't the risk far less below 10 km?
[11:42] <jatkins> it's just really private planes?
[11:42] <jcoxon> there is still a risk
[11:42] <jatkins> yes
[11:42] <jcoxon> there are lots of planes
[11:42] <jcoxon> in cambridge there are many private airstrips
[11:42] <jatkins> hmm
[11:42] <jcoxon> and also its landing
[11:43] <jatkins> yes
[11:43] <jcoxon> what happens if it doesn't deploy and rams straight into a house
[11:43] <jatkins> how about launch at the coast, then glide across the sea
[11:43] <jatkins> bad
[11:43] <jcoxon> definitely and option
[11:43] <jatkins> all you have is sea planes really?
[11:43] <jcoxon> how about this
[11:43] <jcoxon> drop a small model plane out of foam
[11:43] <jcoxon> stick a radio beacon in it
[11:43] <jcoxon> see where it goes
[11:44] <jatkins> cool
[11:44] <jatkins> what dyu mean out of foam/
[11:44] <jatkins> ?
[11:44] <jcoxon> as in nothing hard
[11:44] <jcoxon> maybe polystyrene
[11:44] <jatkins> oh right yeah
[11:44] <jcoxon> a sort of deltawing shape
[11:44] <jatkins> yep
[11:44] <jcoxon> then slowly add more to it
[11:45] <jcoxon> if it works perhaps a gps
[11:45] <jatkins> yeah
[11:45] <jcoxon> then some sort of rudder control
[11:45] <jcoxon> just build it up slowly
[11:45] <jatkins> yep
[11:45] <jatkins> do you use elevators on the wings for pitching?
[11:46] <jcoxon> i think the aim would be to get away with just using rudder
[11:46] <jatkins> ok
[11:46] <jatkins> and you yaw with that?
[11:46] <jcoxon> the simpler the better
[11:46] <jatkins> yup
[11:49] <jatkins> as a guess, how fast do you think it would be at touchdown?
[11:50] <jcoxon> not sure
[11:50] <jatkins> a drogue chute would help reduce the shock on landing
[11:51] <jatkins> i.e. to reduce the impact
[11:52] <jatkins> just like the shuttle really
[11:56] <jcoxon> bbiab
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[11:56] <jatkins> bye
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[15:25] <jatkins> hi edmoore
[15:25] <edmoore> hi jatkins
[15:25] <edmoore> how's it going?
[15:26] <jatkins> fine, thanks. you?
[15:27] <edmoore> not bad
[15:27] <edmoore> just got back from france
[15:27] <jatkins> cool
[15:27] <edmoore> 10 hour drive, legs a little stiff
[15:27] <edmoore> but otherwise good
[15:27] <jatkins> cool
[15:28] <jatkins> I was talking to jcoxon earlier about insurance for HABs
[15:29] <edmoore> uhuh
[15:29] <jatkins> do you get flight insurance when you fly?
[15:30] <edmoore> under the banner of "Cambridge University Spaceflight" we've always had 3rd party
[15:30] <edmoore> for our official nova flights
[15:30] <edmoore> but otherwise no. it's not necessary, and if I was doing this on my own I wouldn't have it
[15:30] <jatkins> ok
[15:30] <edmoore> by necessary I mean it's not legally necessary
[15:30] <jatkins> ok
[15:31] <jatkins> thanks, I was just wondering because I'm hoping to launch soon
[15:31] <edmoore> awesome :)
[15:31] <Laurenceb> hi all
[15:31] <jatkins> just radio + finishing off the gps to do really
[15:31] <jatkins> hi
[15:31] <edmoore> hi lb
[15:31] <Laurenceb> wlcome back to the UK :D
[15:31] <Laurenceb> today I've been working on something a bit special
[15:31] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:kalman_filter
[15:32] <edmoore> jatkins: with radios it's often useful, we've found, to just have it beep when it's not activelly transmitting telemetry
[15:32] <edmoore> ha, that old chestnut :)
[15:32] <edmoore> jatkins: as that way it's easier to find it with the antenna when it's up in the air
[15:32] <jatkins> ok, thanks
[15:33] <edmoore> there are matrix libraries available y'know lb
[15:33] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:34] <Laurenceb> but it needs to be small
[15:34] <Laurenceb> my total code size is now 6KB :D
[15:34] <edmoore> and i you're running this on an avr, there are lots of optimisations you can do, as half the time you're doing 0*0 if you do element by element
[15:34] <Laurenceb> true
[15:35] <edmoore> infact whatever you run it on it's worth doing a bit of kalman-specific optimisation
[15:35] <edmoore> I've had fun pruning :)
[15:35] <Laurenceb> hmm
[15:35] <Laurenceb> would it be worth having the multiplication code check to see if its doing 0*0?
[15:36] <Laurenceb> guess that would save a few clock cycles
[15:36] <edmoore> I think that would still take up the same number of cycles
[15:36] <Laurenceb> hmm
[15:36] <Laurenceb> even if its multilpying floats?
[15:36] <edmoore> well actually
[15:36] <Laurenceb> or does the math lib in c
[15:36] <Laurenceb> handle that?
[15:36] <edmoore> actually these are floats so you will save time checking
[15:36] <Laurenceb> is it clever enough to know that 0*0 = 0 ?
[15:37] <edmoore> I'm not sure, tbh
[15:37] <edmoore> don't know enough about the library
[15:37] <Laurenceb> I might ask on ##c
[15:37] <edmoore> yes do
[15:37] <edmoore> will listen for the answer
[15:38] <Laurenceb> lol
[15:38] <edmoore> probably will with some scary level of optimisation on that'll break everything else
[15:40] <Laurenceb> bbl
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[16:21] <Laurenceb> hey edmoore
[16:21] <edmoore> ello
[16:21] <Laurenceb> apparently you have to check the math lib :(
[16:23] <Laurenceb> aha I have something to do next year :D
[16:23] <Laurenceb> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7343027.stm
[16:23] Action: Laurenceb applies for a place
[16:23] <edmoore> :)
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[16:29] <edmoore> that's not a degree
[16:29] <edmoore> basically
[16:29] <edmoore> it's 'some training'
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[16:32] <Laurenceb> hello fnoble
[16:32] <edmoore> omg hornblower
[16:32] <edmoore> getting back to england has never been so good
[16:32] <fnoble> hornblower is on?
[16:33] <edmoore> yes
[16:33] <edmoore> itv3
[16:33] <edmoore> only been on 15mins
[16:33] <edmoore> not sure which one - they seem to endlessly repeat one per week
[16:33] <edmoore> I've not seen this one though
[16:33] <edmoore> to my knowledge
[16:37] <edmoore> fnoble: have you spoken to mc about t'morra?
[16:38] <fnoble> yeah, all set
[16:38] <edmoore> awesomeness
[16:38] <Laurenceb> what happening?
[16:39] <fnoble> Im going with mc to meet Andy Elson
[16:40] <Laurenceb> whos that?
[16:40] <edmoore> he's a friend of jame's macfarlane who has some good balloon experiences
[16:40] <edmoore> my typing is all over the place - best to parse it as best you can
[16:41] <Laurenceb> cool
[16:41] <Laurenceb> parse it lol
[16:41] Action: Laurenceb runs it through a uC
[16:41] <fnoble> yes, ed is actually a non-deterministic finite automata
[16:41] <Laurenceb> ha
[16:42] <edmoore> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q4fTPwXy4U
[16:42] <Laurenceb> I'm getting confused by how the error treatment works in kalman filters...
[16:42] <Laurenceb> if I have some gyro with error per root hertz, do I muplily by sqrt time
[16:43] <Laurenceb> to get the normalised drift over that timestep
[16:43] <Laurenceb> my terminology is all over the place...
[16:44] <Laurenceb> ok nvm, think thats correct
[16:45] <fnoble> edmoore: awesome
[16:46] <edmoore> Laurenceb: it's definitely a case of working it all out on paper (lots) first
[16:46] <edmoore> any small change or truncation on fixed point adjustment or something can propagate through in funny ways
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[16:49] <edmoore> If you don't add enough noise it can make the filter start to diverge
[16:49] <edmoore> which is.. odd
[16:50] <edmoore> I think it did so because the limited resolution of the adc wasn't picking up enough noise, so there wasn't much going on in the covarience matrices because of a lack of, well, varience
[16:51] <Laurenceb> well you want it to trust the real world data enough
[16:51] <edmoore> you want to trust it as much as you define :)
[16:51] <Laurenceb> hmm
[16:52] <Laurenceb> really you shouls use actualy noise data
[16:52] <Laurenceb> actual*
[16:52] <Laurenceb> then the filter will give the best result
[16:52] <edmoore> yes I know, but that's not always practically acheivable
[16:52] <Laurenceb> yes
[16:52] <edmoore> maths vs real world
[16:52] <Laurenceb> especially when your model is not accurate
[16:53] <Laurenceb> you want to give it a higher process noise than in reality
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[16:53] <Laurenceb> so as to accomodate that fact
[16:53] <jcoxon> afternoon all
[16:53] <Laurenceb> I'm just trying to estimate a good process noise value to use...
[16:54] <Laurenceb> hello
[16:54] <edmoore> well whatever works that doesn't make the filter explode :)
[16:54] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
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[16:59] <jcoxon> hey ed
[17:00] <edmoore> they really should make more Hornblowers
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[17:13] <jatkins> hi all
[17:16] <Laurenceb> our_model.F.br=1.0-(damping_constant*delta_time);
[17:16] <Laurenceb> ^ why wont that compile?
[17:16] <Laurenceb> damping constant and delta_time are macros
[17:18] <edmoore> they're macros?
[17:19] <edmoore> hmm
[17:19] <edmoore> have you made them floats?
[17:20] <fnoble> for (;;) { away(); }
[17:20] <Laurenceb> yes
[17:22] <edmoore> fnoble: is that keep speak for you're off for a smoke?
[17:23] <edmoore> geek speak*
[17:23] <Laurenceb> wow a new language is born
[17:24] <Laurenceb> I'm stuck :(
[17:24] <Laurenceb> ../main.c:16: error: expected ')' before ';' token
[17:25] <edmoore> pastebin it
[17:26] <Laurenceb> k
[17:26] <Laurenceb> http://pastebin.com/m63729f45
[17:27] <Laurenceb> http://pastebin.com/m165b124d
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[17:32] <Laurenceb> woops
[17:32] <Laurenceb> misplaced ;
[17:33] <edmoore> tis often the way
[17:34] <Laurenceb> there were ; after the #define
[17:35] <Laurenceb> hehe this is cool, just need to grab the navigation code off zagi.c
[17:35] <Laurenceb> its only 6.5KB so far
[17:36] <edmoore> going on a 16?
[17:36] <Laurenceb> think so
[17:36] <Laurenceb> I thought it might fit on amega8
[17:36] <Laurenceb> but thats a bit silly
[17:37] <edmoore> :P
[17:37] <edmoore> the 16 has more toys anyway doesn't it?
[17:37] <Laurenceb> yep
[17:37] <Laurenceb> the top cont register is very useful
[17:37] <Laurenceb> *count
[17:37] <Laurenceb> so I can time my PWM just right
[17:38] <Laurenceb> then my kalman filter and gyro code will live in a ISR triggered by timer overflow
[17:39] <edmoore> awesome
[17:39] <Laurenceb> and the "main" code will just do navigation and wind correction
[17:39] <edmoore> I'm trying to get my 4-state to about 100hz
[17:39] <Laurenceb> cool
[17:39] <Laurenceb> not quite possible on an AVR :P
[17:39] <edmoore> same deal on the timers
[17:39] <edmoore> lol
[17:39] <Laurenceb> but I'm planning to try and get 50 hz
[17:39] <edmoore> well that's doing the quaternions too
[17:39] <Laurenceb> so 20ms
[17:44] <edmoore> i think parafoils are sufficiently well behaved that 50hz will be absolutely plenty fast enough
[17:44] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, you working on a parafoil now?
[17:44] <edmoore> I'd quite like mine to be rocket-usable aswell
[17:44] <edmoore> but it's more than is needed for a parafoil
[17:45] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: general parafoil/rogallo code
[17:45] <Laurenceb> the code on the rogallo is 50Hz
[17:45] <jcoxon> oh right
[17:45] <Laurenceb> but not kalman, or at least proper kalman
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[17:46] <Laurenceb> but its very cool, almost feels like a mechanical link if you stick the P term high and turn off D and I
[17:47] <Laurenceb> has the wiki died?
[17:48] <edmoore> not working for me
[17:48] <Laurenceb> :-(
[17:48] <Laurenceb> hope its all ok
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[17:51] <Laurenceb> hmm HydraIRC...
[17:52] <Laurenceb> I looked at their site, and the screenshots involved a discussion on pron site hacking
[17:52] <Laurenceb> didnt inspire confidence
[17:52] <jcoxon> xchat all the way
[17:53] <edmoore> colloquy....
[17:53] <jcoxon> did slow on my 'puter
[18:39] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:parafoil_main
[18:41] <Laurenceb> nav_filter runs every 20ms or so
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[19:21] <edmoore> guys, the tiger in the jungle thing is on bbc1 at 8
[19:22] <edmoore> it's really good, not least because of the geekery of the tree-trunk cams
[19:23] <Laurenceb> yey for gookery
[19:23] <Laurenceb> erm geekery
[19:28] <natrium42> edmoore, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwvVHDbK2C4
[19:29] <edmoore> :D
[19:32] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:parafoil_main
[19:32] <Laurenceb> setup code is mostly done :P
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[21:55] <Laurenceb> hi phatmonkey
[21:56] <phatmonkey> hey there
[21:56] <phatmonkey> what's up?
[21:56] <Laurenceb> working on some code
[21:56] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/general:code
[21:56] <Laurenceb> bottom three links :D
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[22:05] <Hiena> Good evening!
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[22:16] <Hiena> Is there any specification of the near space? If i see stars at the bright daylight and the curve of the earth, it's enough?
[22:16] <edmoore> I think basically stratosphere
[22:16] <edmoore> straosphere to 100km, would be what I'd pluck out my behind if I was pushed
[22:17] <jcoxon> Hiena, yeah near space is regarded as between 20km and 99km
[22:18] <jcoxon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_space
[22:18] <Hiena> Well, today i saw the curve of the earth and sortly after that a stars. Also i felt some dirt taste in my mouth...
[22:18] <Hiena> ;)
[22:18] <Laurenceb> lol
[22:19] <Laurenceb> are you ok?
[22:19] <Hiena> Yup, and the glider too.
[22:19] <edmoore> hohoho
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[22:19] <edmoore> this is a family channel
[22:19] <Laurenceb> :P
[22:20] <Laurenceb> edmoore?
[22:20] <edmoore> oh I thought this was all him describing being high
[22:20] <Laurenceb> lmao
[22:21] Action: Laurenceb sits back and admires his code
[22:21] <Laurenceb> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/code:parafoil_main
[22:21] <Hiena> Hindsight for the future: Winch start, crosswind, and DHV2 glider="Run Fores"
[22:21] <Hiena> +t
[22:21] <Laurenceb> hangliding?
[22:21] <Hiena> Yup.
[22:22] <Laurenceb> sounds fun
[22:23] <Laurenceb> well I might call it a day and watch TV, cya all
[22:23] <Hiena> Sure. But I'm still not at high enough. I hopes on the next week i could borrow a power harness, and going up to few thousand meter.
[22:25] <Hiena> Also i want to test my theory about the power requirement and the surface area of the glider.
[22:26] <Hiena> It would be nice if i could reach the uncontrolled airspace altitude limit.
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[22:50] <edmoore> Laurenceb: put it away
[22:50] <edmoore> also, this code is more impressive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNCqrylNY-0
[22:55] <Laurenceb> ofmg what a nerdy looking bloke
[22:55] <Laurenceb> hahah
[22:56] <Laurenceb> :P
[22:59] <Laurenceb> that was hilarious and awsome at the same time
[23:00] <edmoore> exactly
[23:00] <edmoore> makes a few pic loops look a bit sily
[23:00] <edmoore> pid*
[23:01] <fnoble> edmoore: have you done euler project 5?
[23:01] <edmoore> nope
[23:01] <fnoble> mmm.
[23:01] <edmoore> not this time round - i forgot about it on holiday
[23:02] <fnoble> yeah, my code is taking AGES
[23:02] <fnoble> lol
[23:02] <Laurenceb> 8 KB crazy
[23:03] <Laurenceb> fnobel: I thought you were studying "natural sciences" ?
[23:07] <edmoore> hus rendering him incapable of using a keyboard?
[23:07] <edmoore> thus*
[23:07] <Laurenceb> lol
[23:07] <Laurenceb> I was just wondering why all the programming stuff?
[23:17] <Laurenceb> woot
[23:17] <Laurenceb> 10KB
[23:18] <Laurenceb> it just need some code to generate radio packets
[23:18] <Laurenceb> cya all
[23:19] <fnoble> edmoore: did it on paper in the end :0
[23:20] <fnoble> s/:0/:)
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[00:00] --- Mon Apr 14 2008