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[06:46] <_johan_> I posted a postmortem on our flight http://www.boredgamedeveloper.com/high_altitude/index.php/1_-_Pong/Postmortem
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[08:08] <jcoxon> morning all
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[09:11] <Laurenceb> good morning :P
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[09:21] <jcoxon> hey Laurenceb
[09:22] <Laurenceb> I'm up nice and early (by my standards)
[09:25] <jcoxon> hehe
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[11:33] <Laurenceb> hi ed
[11:33] <edmoore> morning Laurence
[11:33] <edmoore> how's it going?
[11:34] <Laurenceb> I've solved the egg problem :P
[11:34] <Laurenceb> use NMR :D
[11:34] <edmoore> oh good god
[11:34] <Laurenceb> its actually been used to do exactly this
[11:35] <Laurenceb> http://www.magritek.com/PDFs/revsci97.pdf
[11:35] <Laurenceb> ^ that design looks feasible
[11:37] <Laurenceb> its slightly unconvensional in using a seperate AF excitation (fig 2)
[11:38] <Laurenceb> but its made me think, a culinary NMR device would be useful
[11:39] <edmoore> that's a quote I'm going to remember
[11:39] <Laurenceb> :P
[11:39] <edmoore> I'm going to make a site of Laurenceb quotes
[11:39] <Laurenceb> haha
[11:40] <edmoore> I can add it to other classics like (in defense of the performance of an aircraft) "It worked well on the Ground" :p
[11:41] <edmoore> anything much planned for today?
[11:41] <edmoore> arse gtg
[11:41] <edmoore> bbiab
[11:41] <Laurenceb> cya
[11:44] <Laurenceb> if you look at figure 7 in the pdf, you can see the amplitude is quite different
[11:45] <Laurenceb> apparently for "industrial food processing" just the amplitude is enough to tell what going on very accurately
[11:45] <Laurenceb> and the technique has been used for automated egg cooking
[11:45] <Laurenceb> sorted :P
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[11:57] <edmoore> bk
[12:02] <Laurenceb> so, you could have a user interface, and poeple could check the vitamin content, look for harmful fat ect
[12:03] <Laurenceb> if there was some heath scare, you could charge for a firmware update to check for the molecule in question :P
[12:03] <edmoore> Dragon's Den here we come
[12:04] <Laurenceb> indeed :D
[12:04] <edmoore> could you chop the top off cleanly for dipping by using a high energy beam from a particle accelerator?
[12:05] <Laurenceb> lol
[12:12] <Laurenceb> you could actually do decent chemical analysis with a few opamps and a sound card
[12:24] <Laurenceb> oh edmoore: I dont want to get any lassen iq recievers now
[12:24] <Laurenceb> mc- has persuaded me
[12:24] <edmoore> ok
[12:24] <Laurenceb> how about you?
[12:24] <edmoore> we don't know if they work at alt yet
[12:24] <edmoore> If they do, I will get some
[12:25] <edmoore> but am still waiting for ublox to re-get back to me
[12:25] <Laurenceb> mc- is confident it does
[12:25] <Laurenceb> so...
[12:25] <edmoore> He knows something I don't then
[12:25] <Laurenceb> hes ordered a few modules, just the smd, which is a bit tricky to wire up without a dedicated board
[12:26] <Laurenceb> I need to email him to see if he can get the samrt ant ones
[12:28] <Laurenceb> its a pain as I've ordered these lassen iq based boards
[12:28] <Laurenceb> but its very cheap and the performance looks good. With a smart antenna it would be easy to adapt the lassen iq boards
[12:30] <Laurenceb> If I've got more money later, I'll order a "smart antenna" board for the SMD module with the rest of the tronic on as well, should be very small
[12:31] <Laurenceb> omfg my neighbour is doing ti chi in his front garden
[12:31] <edmoore> haha
[12:31] <edmoore> why not?
[12:32] <Laurenceb> you look like a prat ?
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[13:13] <jcoxon> hey all
[13:15] <Laurenceb> hello
[13:15] <Laurenceb> I solved my automatic egg boiling problem
[13:15] <jcoxon> oh wow
[13:15] <Laurenceb> use NMR :P
[13:16] <jcoxon> okay
[13:16] <jcoxon> i'd just live with the risk of partially boiled eggs
[13:16] <Laurenceb> apparently its been used for exactly the same problem
[13:16] <Laurenceb> and its quite easy, you can do it with a few opamps
[13:17] <Laurenceb> you can actually do analysis with a soundcard
[13:21] <Laurenceb> you can just use the earth field, then the larmor frequency is around 2.75KHz
[13:21] <edmoore> jcoxon: how's it hanging?
[13:22] <Laurenceb> you dont need to ask him that, its obviously hanging from a balloon :P
[13:23] <Laurenceb> sorry that was very bad
[13:23] <jcoxon> edmoore, no bad
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[13:45] <Laurenceb> atv docking coming up soon
[13:54] <edmoore> oooooh
[13:54] <edmoore> 10 mins
[13:54] <edmoore> marvellous
[13:54] <edmoore> esa tv or nasa tv?
[13:54] <edmoore> I'll get a beer
[13:54] <edmoore> natrium42: awake with ye!
[13:54] <Laurenceb> I'm watching nasa tv
[13:54] <edmoore> oh hang on
[13:54] <edmoore> it's not UT anymore is it
[13:54] <edmoore> it's BST
[13:54] <Laurenceb> you can see the thruster firing
[13:54] <Laurenceb> quite interesting, they're going off in short bursts
[13:54] <edmoore> as opposed to what?
[13:59] <edmoore> this tv docking stuff is all pretty cool
[13:59] <edmoore> It was the surveyor corp tech that got me tempted by blackfin
[14:00] <Laurenceb> surveyor corp?
[14:01] <edmoore> googlem
[14:02] <Laurenceb> nice little beast
[14:03] <edmoore> when they dump the atv, they should do it like this
[14:03] <edmoore> undock from iss
[14:03] <edmoore> boost to a high orbit
[14:03] <edmoore> build speed up
[14:03] <edmoore> and then launch into the atmosphere at 30 degrees incidence with thrusters at full blast
[14:04] <edmoore> and do it within 200m of the iss
[14:04] <edmoore> that'd look pretty spectacular
[14:04] <edmoore> coming past at thousand of mph and twating into the atmosphere as a crazy fireball
[14:04] <Laurenceb> so it will have a close approach to the iss at high velocity ?
[14:05] <edmoore> yes
[14:05] <edmoore> nice and safe
[14:05] <Laurenceb> that will be amazing
[14:05] <edmoore> unfortunately they probably won't do that
[14:05] <edmoore> but it'd be a pretty cool salute
[14:06] <Laurenceb> darr
[14:06] <Laurenceb> you had me conviced for a moment
[14:11] <edmoore> lots of good papers on scholar .google.com about the GNC on the ATV
[14:11] <edmoore> some pretty large state matrices being input into the filters
[14:12] <Laurenceb> GNC ?
[14:12] <edmoore> guidance nav and control
[14:12] <Laurenceb> ah
[14:13] <edmoore> imagine atv with a high power laser beam
[14:13] <edmoore> it could creep up on sattelites
[14:13] <edmoore> home in
[14:14] <edmoore> and blast
[14:19] <Laurenceb> it overshot
[14:19] <Laurenceb> by 0.01
[14:19] <edmoore> pathetic really
[14:20] <Laurenceb> bah stupid control system :P
[14:20] <edmoore> are you getting any voice commentry?
[14:20] <edmoore> i just have images atm
[14:20] <Laurenceb> yes
[14:21] <edmoore> was there a region of noice voice commentry?
[14:21] <edmoore> no voice commentry*
[14:21] <Laurenceb> theres various controllers
[14:21] <Laurenceb> the russian control center are fiddling with the settings
[14:21] <Laurenceb> on the radar and camera
[14:22] <edmoore> i just see it side-on through the zvedsa atm
[14:22] <edmoore> 13:19:13 is the time
[14:22] <edmoore> your time?
[14:22] <Laurenceb> 13.22
[14:24] <Laurenceb> 13.23.30
[14:26] <edmoore> 27 mins to final approach 1
[14:29] <Laurenceb> I really want to make my own NMR now, it looks really simple
[14:30] <Laurenceb> shame my soldering iron is out of action
[14:30] <Laurenceb> needs a new tip, do farnell sell them?
[14:30] <edmoore> almost certainly
[14:31] <Laurenceb> ah yes so they do
[14:32] <Laurenceb> my tip went rusty while I was at uni :/
[14:32] <Laurenceb> I'll have to wrap them in something in future
[14:33] <Laurenceb> or use WD40
[14:33] <edmoore> leave them well tinned
[14:33] <edmoore> they should be fine
[14:33] <edmoore> though if it's a damp environment that's never good
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[14:34] <Laurenceb> it was left in the same room as a tumble dryer
[14:34] <Laurenceb> so that was probably half the problem
[14:35] <phatmonkey> site will be down for a bit
[14:35] <phatmonkey> might not get it up till tomorrow
[14:35] <phatmonkey> there's always google cache if anyone needs anything from the wiki
[14:35] <Laurenceb> ok
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[14:35] <Laurenceb> how come?
[14:35] <phatmonkey> moving servers
[14:35] <Laurenceb> cool
[14:35] <phatmonkey> and I need to steal the disks from the old server to build the new server
[14:36] <phatmonkey> essentially we have a bunch of servers running in the house and the electricity bill is obscene
[14:36] <Laurenceb> lol
[14:36] <phatmonkey> so I'm moving it all to one big Xen server
[14:36] <phatmonkey> 5x 500gb drives...!
[14:37] <Laurenceb> wow
[14:38] <edmoore> so we can fill the wiki then
[14:39] <Laurenceb> lol "over russian ground stations"
[14:39] <Laurenceb> loads of video corruption
[14:39] <edmoore> yeah :)
[14:40] <Laurenceb> whats stuck on the lens?
[14:40] <edmoore> done
[14:41] <Laurenceb> whats done?
[14:41] <edmoore> bosh
[14:41] <edmoore> sunlight
[14:46] <edmoore> i don't like the way you can see stars through the atv
[14:47] <Laurenceb> showing that it is infact a hologram
[14:48] <edmoore> can we have a ukhas mission control centre
[14:48] <Laurenceb> haha
[14:48] <edmoore> 30 guys in custom computer stations
[14:48] <edmoore> all waiting for a chirp of 80 characters once a minute
[14:48] <Laurenceb> lol
[14:49] <edmoore> the shuttle launches are back on track aren't they
[14:49] <Laurenceb> dont know
[14:49] <edmoore> they originally intended launches to be weekly
[14:49] <Laurenceb> lmao
[14:49] <Laurenceb> some chance
[14:49] <edmoore> but it's been barely one a year of late
[14:50] <Laurenceb> talking of radios, using that FFT asm code I linked the other day, you could make a dedicated decoder with an LCD on
[14:50] <Laurenceb> using an avr
[14:50] <Laurenceb> but it would be a bit pointless, might as well use a laptop
[14:50] <Laurenceb> for uplink on the other hand it would be cool
[14:52] <Laurenceb> we could use a reciever module or maybe even a hacked consumer radio, then decode the audio
[14:52] <edmoore> well that is the uplink plan
[14:52] <edmoore> conventional radiometrix decoder
[14:52] <edmoore> and several watts of power from the groun
[14:53] <Laurenceb> yes, but rocketboys design needs a fairly serious FFT
[14:53] <Laurenceb> he planned to sample the IF directly
[14:53] <Laurenceb> I guess i should learn to use dspic or arm7
[14:53] <edmoore> well fine, but you needn't do that straight away
[14:53] <edmoore> just to get some basic uplink
[14:53] <Laurenceb> sure, my point
[14:54] <Laurenceb> I see what you mean about the stars... whats going on
[14:54] <edmoore> anyway, here we go!
[14:54] <Laurenceb> yeh distance is decreasing
[14:56] <Laurenceb> haha I love the flight director
[14:56] <Laurenceb> hes just sitting there in a suit looking important :P
[14:57] <edmoore> that's the flight director's job!
[14:58] <edmoore> telegoniometer
[14:58] <edmoore> i don't know what it is
[14:58] <edmoore> but it sounds cool
[14:58] <Laurenceb> sounds cool
[14:59] <edmoore> I wish there was a nice OS toolchain for PICs
[14:59] <edmoore> or rather, dspics
[14:59] <edmoore> though i guess things like FFTs could be done in assembler quite easily
[14:59] <Laurenceb> yes, i went for avr when I decided to learn uC
[14:59] <Laurenceb> as the tools are better
[14:59] <edmoore> but writing something like an nmea parser in assembler is soooooo dull
[14:59] <Laurenceb> lol I hate to think
[15:01] <edmoore> the transparent atv thing is wrong
[15:01] <edmoore> it's upsetting me
[15:01] <Laurenceb> its all fake
[15:01] <Laurenceb> just like the moon landings
[15:01] <Laurenceb> I always said it and knowone believed me
[15:02] <Laurenceb> global warming is a scam
[15:02] <Laurenceb> 911 inside job
[15:02] <Laurenceb> repent the end of the world is nigh
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[15:02] <edmoore> ok....
[15:03] <Laurenceb> ooh they fixed it
[15:05] <Laurenceb> nope, back with the transparent effect now
[15:05] <edmoore> so the ATV has a 32bit 14mhz computer
[15:05] <Laurenceb> really?
[15:05] <edmoore> yep
[15:05] <edmoore> it does have an fpu though
[15:05] <edmoore> well, it has 4 such systems
[15:05] <Laurenceb> ah
[15:05] <edmoore> all being redundant
[15:06] <edmoore> the processor for the bus interface is faster
[15:06] <edmoore> 20mhz
[15:06] <Laurenceb> I dont understand these redundant systems
[15:06] <edmoore> wyzat?
[15:06] <Laurenceb> so how do you have 4 processors controlling the same device?
[15:07] <edmoore> they all check each other's calculations
[15:07] <Laurenceb> hmm
[15:07] <edmoore> then agree which one will send the command
[15:07] <Laurenceb> ok
[15:07] <Laurenceb> but it strikes me that one could take down the others
[15:07] <edmoore> why?
[15:07] <Laurenceb> ok... if its designed well
[15:07] <Laurenceb> I guess it works
[15:07] <edmoore> they vote
[15:08] <edmoore> majority wins
[15:08] <Laurenceb> I see
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[15:08] <edmoore> and they're all connected to each other, so it's not link a bus link is broken if one goes down
[15:08] <edmoore> WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON!!??
[15:08] <Laurenceb> what?
[15:08] <edmoore> it's not a glass atv - this is madness!
[15:09] <Laurenceb> this is sparta
[15:09] <Laurenceb> they are fixing it now
[15:10] <Laurenceb> adjustig the contrast so you can tell
[15:10] <Laurenceb> wtf someone just said "hello" in a weird voice
[15:11] <Laurenceb> theres some odd stuff going on
[15:11] <edmoore> yes
[15:11] <edmoore> that was strange
[15:12] <edmoore> so apprently it's radiation noise
[15:12] <edmoore> accumulated radiation damage
[15:12] <Laurenceb> ah
[15:12] <Laurenceb> that would make sense
[15:12] <Laurenceb> ouch, imgine what that does to your body :/
[15:20] <Laurenceb> edmoore: can you ssh through a serial port ?
[15:21] <rcaron> you can telnet through a serial port
[15:21] <rcaron> or you can make a tcp/ip layer ontop of the serial and then ssh
[15:21] <Laurenceb> ah
[15:21] <Laurenceb> of course
[15:22] <rcaron> the former being much easier than the latter
[15:22] <Laurenceb> thanx
[15:22] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:22] <rcaron> np
[15:23] <Laurenceb> I was just wondering how to setup an ssh over a radio link
[15:24] <rcaron> depending on the radio service, that may not be permitted since ssh is encrypted
[15:24] <Laurenceb> I'm sure knowone will mind a bit of RTTY
[15:25] <edmoore> just sending the rsa would take about a day
[15:27] <Laurenceb> hmm ok
[15:27] <Laurenceb> telnet would work ?
[15:29] <edmoore> i really like the idea of video overlay
[15:34] <Laurenceb> so do they use mechanical gyroscopes in the IMU?
[15:36] <edmoore> nope
[15:36] <edmoore> rlg
[15:36] <edmoore> i think
[15:37] <Laurenceb> rlg? fibre optic
[15:37] <Laurenceb> oh ring laser
[15:37] <edmoore> nope, they're FOG
[15:37] <edmoore> RLG is ring laser gyro
[15:37] <edmoore> similar principle
[15:37] <Laurenceb> ah ok, as I suspected
[15:38] <Laurenceb> armadillo aerospace use FOG
[15:38] <edmoore> rich bastards
[15:39] <Laurenceb> they are used FOG with a phase based GPS system for long term stabilisation now
[15:39] <Laurenceb> the FOG cost about as much as three houses, and the gps as much as a house :D
[15:41] <edmoore> if you've got the money....
[15:41] <edmoore> 90% of the battle is trying to get sense out of crap sensors, so i guess there's a strong arguement for paying for nice ones
[15:48] <edmoore> slick
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[18:16] <Hiena> Good evening!
[18:17] <natrium42> hai
[18:18] <edmoore> It's not evening for you is it
[18:20] <natrium42> nope, why?
[18:20] <natrium42> it's 13:20
[18:35] <Laurenceb> hi all
[18:36] <Laurenceb> just been doing a site inspection... idiot electrician has fixed the back of the sockets directly to the wall
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[18:36] <Laurenceb> without being told what the thickness of the insulation is
[18:37] <Laurenceb> so now the front of the sockets wont line up with the plaster
[18:37] <Laurenceb> might as well do it myself :(
[18:43] Action: Laurenceb is conducting a boiled egg experiement
[18:43] <Laurenceb> I intend to eat it later
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[20:13] Nick change: laurence_ -> Laurenceb_
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[20:45] <Laurenceb_> well, the results of the boiled egg experiment are ready
[20:46] <Laurenceb_> I havent tried meauring capacitance yet, looked at what happens inside
[20:47] <Laurenceb_> the solid/liquid interface can be in the region of 1mm, which is good for ultrasound
[20:47] <Laurenceb_> but its strongy dependent on the egg, and exactly how its cooked - hot fast it heats up
[20:47] <Laurenceb_> ultrasound doesnt look good
[20:48] <Laurenceb_> however it did taste nice
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[21:01] <akawaka> hah
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[22:44] <_johan__> Anyone know of a good tranceiver circuit in the 144Mhz range? Cheap would be nice to.
[23:11] <fnoble> edmoore: hello, you around?
[23:11] <edmoore> fnoble: just about
[23:11] <fnoble> thanks for forewarding more of that email from the lpc list
[23:12] <fnoble> looks like some useful info
[23:12] <edmoore> yeah
[23:12] <fnoble> do you think we could try it with another card?
[23:13] <fnoble> specifically, a real MMC card rather than an SD
[23:13] <edmoore> yep for sure
[23:13] <fnoble> do you have one at home?
[23:13] <edmoore> did you get my email about the usb?
[23:13] <edmoore> no I don't
[23:13] <edmoore> had a look around
[23:15] <fnoble> yeah - thats a bit annoying
[23:16] <fnoble> should be easy to bodge though
[23:16] <edmoore> indeed
[23:16] <fnoble> the tracks are reasonalby clear
[23:16] <edmoore> hack hack hack
[23:17] <fnoble> yeah, always have to do a few things, there is always something
[23:17] <edmoore> In the William Gates building I was having a supervison just before term ended
[23:17] <edmoore> and Ian Wassel was 5 mins late
[23:17] <edmoore> and an old boy came out of the room next to his and started talking about computers, interested that we were engineers and saying he trained as one
[23:18] <edmoore> I've just realised that was Maurice Wilkes, who built EDSAC
[23:18] <edmoore> in like 1948
[23:18] <fnoble> yeah, he is still around
[23:19] <fnoble> its pretty amazing isnt it
[23:19] <edmoore> scary
[23:19] <edmoore> I wonder how in the game he still is
[23:19] <edmoore> in-the-game*
[23:20] <fnoble> i dunno- the game has got too big to really be "in" in the same way as it was then
[23:20] <edmoore> yes true, but he still could be publishing useful papers
[23:20] <fnoble> dunno, *googles*
[23:21] <edmoore> holy fuck, the dudes going to be 100 before long
[23:23] <fnoble> last published a paper in 2002
[23:24] <fnoble> last really resarchy looking one in 1986
[23:24] <edmoore> Oh well
[23:24] <edmoore> he presumably knows his dig electronics 101
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[23:24] <fnoble> yeah
[23:25] <edmoore> he is credited with the idea of subroutines and macros
[23:28] <edmoore> that's a reasonable useful thing to contribute to computer science :p
[23:30] <akawaka> i can live without them
[23:31] <fnoble> yeah, functional programming all the way
[23:31] <_johan__> The kids today dont branch enough.
[23:31] <fnoble> been getting into haskell a bit
[23:31] <edmoore> bnz
[23:31] <edmoore> oh me too
[23:31] <fnoble> bnz?
[23:31] <edmoore> fnoble: do you have the text book thingy?
[23:31] <edmoore> branch if not zero
[23:31] <edmoore> it's one of the things I used all the time in pic assembler
[23:31] <edmoore> back in the day
[23:31] <fnoble> yeah
[23:31] <edmoore> fnoble: do you have a haskell interpreter for mac?
[23:31] <fnoble> yeah, GHC
[23:31] <fnoble> well, its a compiler primarily, dunno if yo can get hugs for mac
[23:31] <fnoble> although i believe it has an interactive mode
[23:32] <fnoble> which text book?
[23:32] <edmoore> Have you come across the Haskell Road to Logic, Math and Programming
[23:32] <edmoore> it's a pdf text book and seems to be very very highly thought of on t'web
[23:32] <edmoore> I want to learn set theory too, and they don't teach it to us stinkin engineers
[23:32] <edmoore> we spend all our time transforming things
[23:32] <fnoble> cool, been using Yet Another Haskell Tutorial
[23:33] <edmoore> This teaches the haskell as a side effect to the maths and concepts of proof
[23:33] <edmoore> also, have you come across Project Euler?
[23:33] <fnoble> nope?
[23:33] <edmoore> it's great
[23:33] <fnoble> can send you my lecture notes on set theory
[23:33] <edmoore> lots of little programming challenges
[23:34] <fnoble> very good notes, basically a textbook
[23:34] <edmoore> non of the results should take more than 30 secs to compute
[23:34] <edmoore> do, please
[23:34] <edmoore> that's be great
[23:34] <edmoore> have a week long holiday
[23:34] <fnoble> ill look it up
[23:34] <edmoore> don't want to revise, but do want to sink me teeth into something
[23:35] <fnoble> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/0708/DiscMaths/DiscMathRevised07.pdf
[23:35] <fnoble> will take more than a weekend though ;)
[23:35] <edmoore> did you compile GHC?
[23:35] <fnoble> no, ill see if i can find the link
[23:36] <fnoble> http://haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_682.html#macosxintel
[23:36] <edmoore> see my macports still doesn't work
[23:36] <edmoore> so i don't think I can get readline
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[23:37] <edmoore> but I'll play haskell
[23:37] <edmoore> better than ml as a 'ick a functional language to learn some maffs'?
[23:37] <edmoore> pick*
[23:38] <fnoble> i think it is a bit more cutting edge
[23:38] <jcoxon> evening all
[23:38] <fnoble> ML has problems with I/O
[23:38] <fnoble> basically have to break pure functional programming and go all imperative
[23:39] <edmoore> Did I tell you chris was working on some sort of distributed ML
[23:39] <fnoble> haskell apparently dodges this by using monads with are mathematically nicer, but dont know enough to comment on how succesful that is
[23:39] <edmoore> for masochism (his words)
[23:39] <fnoble> heh
[23:39] <fnoble> thats pretty hardcore
[23:39] <edmoore> he's into nasties like that
[23:41] <fnoble> our ML notes are pretty good though
[23:42] <fnoble> and the purely functional stuff is very similar between ML and haskell
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[23:46] <jcoxon> edmoore, with the up and coming SNOX V launch we need to get ourselves some reciever equipment
[23:46] <edmoore> when is it?
[23:46] <jcoxon> hmmm, not too sure but i got an email today about frequencies
[23:46] <jcoxon> and they said it was soon
[23:47] <jcoxon> i reckon within a week
[23:47] <edmoore> I'll be in france from sunday
[23:47] <edmoore> if it lands there, we can fetch it
[23:48] <jcoxon> :-)
[00:00] --- Fri Apr 4 2008