highaltitude.log.20080324

[00:00] <edmoore> that stuff is amazing
[00:00] <fuzzylugnut> gu ;_;
[00:01] <RocketBoy> ug (gu backwards) the nearest waitrose is 25miles away
[00:02] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, sudbury?
[00:02] <RocketBoy> yep
[00:02] <jcoxon> thats where we go
[00:02] <jcoxon> get lots of snow today?
[00:02] <RocketBoy> yep
[00:03] <jcoxon> urgh this ruby/applescript is hurting my head
[00:04] <RocketBoy> BTW - I think I fixed the camera - by fooling it into thinking the falsh capacitor is charged
[00:04] <RocketBoy> it takes pictures agian
[00:04] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, nice!
[00:04] <RocketBoy> and now I can remove even more components
[00:04] <jcoxon> hehe
[00:05] <RocketBoy> tomorrows job will be to see it it will work without the LCD
[00:07] <RocketBoy> night guys
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[00:12] <fuzzylugnut> wooo hotsprings tonight XD
[00:19] <fuzzylugnut> I wish they allowed skinny dipping.
[00:21] <jcoxon> fuzzylugnut, don't want to know...
[00:22] <fuzzylugnut> ; P to far off topic?
[00:22] <jcoxon> i don't want to judge
[00:22] <jcoxon> hehe
[00:23] <fuzzylugnut> lol, ok
[00:24] <fuzzylugnut> http://lavahotsprings.com/
[00:24] <fuzzylugnut> thats 30min from mw
[00:24] <fuzzylugnut> *me
[00:24] <jcoxon> damn, i've worked out how to do all this applescript but typically it requires me to do a hell of a lot more like install the latest version of ruby
[00:25] <fuzzylugnut> lame : (
[00:25] <jcoxon> something for tomorrow me thinks
[00:25] <fuzzylugnut> its.... midnight for you?
[00:25] <jcoxon> yup
[00:25] <jcoxon> night all
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[00:26] <fuzzylugnut> 'night man
[00:26] <fuzzylugnut> *slow*
[00:32] <fuzzylugnut> Alright, time to go make fuzzy stew.
[00:32] <fuzzylugnut> see y'all next week
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[10:23] <Hiena> Good morning!
[11:45] Action: jcoxon starts to compile the latest version of ruby
[11:47] <edmoore> jcoxon: getting anywhere?
[11:48] <jcoxon> yup
[11:48] <jcoxon> found a very nice guide
[11:48] <jcoxon> however it has made me decide to get a new laptop
[11:49] <edmoore> so the time has come
[11:49] <jcoxon> well
[11:49] <jcoxon> more that i need to start saving up for a new laptop
[11:49] <edmoore> so the pre-time has come
[11:49] <edmoore> macbook?
[11:50] <edmoore> hackintosh?
[11:50] <jcoxon> yeah i think so
[11:50] <edmoore> eeeeeeeeeeeepc?
[11:50] <jcoxon> macbook
[11:50] <edmoore> coolio :)
[11:50] <jcoxon> oh its more that i want leopard
[11:50] <jcoxon> and i want to retire this laptop but have it still working
[11:51] <jcoxon> maybe attach it to my flatscreen and use it as a 'desktop'
[11:51] <jcoxon> as the battery is also finally beginning to give up
[11:51] <jcoxon> oooo i have a question, the data you are going to be send down the radio for atlas
[11:51] <jcoxon> any idea what format it'll be in?
[11:51] <jcoxon> (as in seperated by commas of colons or...)
[11:52] <edmoore> no
[11:52] <edmoore> whatever you want
[11:52] <edmoore> it's no fuss to us
[11:52] <jcoxon> shall we say commas
[11:52] <edmoore> ok
[11:52] <jcoxon> and time,lat,long,alt,everything_else ?
[11:53] <edmoore> atlas,time,lat,long,alt,everything_else
[11:53] <jcoxon> okay brilliant
[11:53] <edmoore> there may be quite a lot else
[11:53] <jcoxon> nearly at the stage of being able to make the parse for teh downlink
[11:53] <edmoore> predicted landing spot, general status of things
[11:54] <edmoore> distance and bearing from launch site
[11:54] <jcoxon> well i'll start of basic and then add more features
[11:54] <edmoore> always the way!
[11:54] <jcoxon> might add a socket bit to it so it could be done over hte network
[11:54] <jcoxon> so
[11:54] <edmoore> that problem with having 512kb of onboard memory and a beefy cpu, is that just don't care about adding lots of strings :)
[11:54] <jcoxon> cocoamodem -> parse -> network -> display on another computer
[11:55] <edmoore> oooooooooooh
[11:55] <edmoore> that's getting a bit hardcore
[11:55] <jcoxon> well it would be pretty easy to do
[11:56] <jcoxon> it would be displayed locally but forexample on my puter google earth is slow
[11:56] <jcoxon> so we could do the main stuff on this one and then you could get the data which on your laptop (over wifi)
[11:56] <jcoxon> which could be plugged into google earth
[11:57] <edmoore> that sounds awesome
[11:57] <jcoxon> i've done quite a bit of socket stuff before and there are loads of example on tinternet so it should be easy
[11:57] <jcoxon> hows the board coming along?
[11:59] <edmoore> still waiting for some components
[11:59] <edmoore> and fergus sems to have dropped off the face of the planet :)
[11:59] <edmoore> will give him a bell
[12:00] <jcoxon> haha
[12:01] <jcoxon> well no hurry really
[12:01] <edmoore> when is js best?
[12:01] <jcoxon> not really sure
[12:02] <jcoxon> we are going to want a high pressure system
[12:02] <edmoore> i guess it just seems to be freak-days anyway
[12:02] <jcoxon> so june/july
[12:02] <jcoxon> it should be pretty easy to predict, will know 2-3 days before
[12:03] <edmoore> yeah
[12:03] <jcoxon> so once we are ready i'll start watching the weather
[12:03] <edmoore> well churchill is open for use if we need, aswell as ears
[12:04] <jcoxon> for now :-p
[12:04] <jcoxon> yup
[12:04] <edmoore> we've got a hell of a slow ascent so brunch might be nice
[12:04] <edmoore> or brunch then release
[12:04] <jcoxon> hmmm we need light
[12:04] <edmoore> either way, brunch should be integral to the mission
[12:04] <jcoxon> of course
[12:04] <jcoxon> that said
[12:04] <jcoxon> we do need to keep an eye on it
[12:06] <edmoore> yes, this is true
[12:06] <edmoore> but if we are at churchill, and we have your software.....
[12:06] <jcoxon> but my software should help
[12:06] <edmoore> then we eat brunch and see it on the wireless
[12:06] <jcoxon> indeed
[12:06] <jcoxon> yeah thats true
[12:06] <edmoore> in hall
[12:06] <edmoore> james you're a genius
[12:07] <jcoxon> i try
[12:16] <edmoore> right, drinks and lunch and shizzle
[12:16] <edmoore> bbl
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[12:42] <mc-> jcoxon?
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[13:38] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
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[14:56] <mc-> hi jcoxon, zeusbot is back on strike, (not logging anything)
[15:00] <jcoxon> hey mc-
[15:00] <jcoxon> yeah i'm on the case
[15:00] <jcoxon> he is logging but isn't transfering the log files
[15:00] <mc-> thanks, hope you had a nice holiday
[15:01] <jcoxon> yeah, it turned into quiet an adventure
[15:01] <mc-> an odyssey?
[15:02] <edmoore> right, general sparkfun order call
[15:02] <jcoxon> quite*
[15:03] <edmoore> mc- the stuff you asked for has been out of stock for ages but is back in stock now, hence it'sd the time to order!
[15:03] <jcoxon> mc-, a little :-)
[15:03] <edmoore> but if anyone wants to add anything, speak now (or in the next 24hrs) or forever hold your peace
[15:03] <mc-> great, I was just looking for the part nos
[15:03] <edmoore> some of the stuff we wanted has been OOS aswell for yonks
[15:03] <edmoore> annoying, really
[15:03] <edmoore> but it all seems to have the green light now
[15:05] <mc-> by the way, I can get some cheap GPS modules if that's of interest
[15:05] <mc-> and I've got a load of patch antennas
[15:05] <mc-> passive patches, which sit on a piece of DS PCB
[15:06] <jcoxon> http://arhab.blogspot.com/
[15:08] <jcoxon> i'm not sure it really means
[15:08] <jcoxon> but seems like there is another transatlantic attempt
[15:08] <edmoore> mc- can you get helicals?
[15:10] <edmoore> or infact, here is a better q: what do you reckon are the chances of ahem-throat-clearing-hmm-cough one of these? http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8621
[15:12] <mc-> emailing you
[15:13] <mc-> yes, I've got some helicals.
[15:15] <edmoore> ok cool
[15:15] <mc-> jcoxon, it doesn't seem to have GPS on it?
[15:15] <mc-> the CW format doesn't include a GPS string
[15:16] <jcoxon> mc-, yeah
[15:17] <jcoxon> found the email from Dan
[15:17] <jcoxon> For those who are Radio Amateurs in Europe, if you would be so kind, a fellow amateur balloon group needs you to listen for his trans-atlantic balloon. It is not capable of being tracked with our DTRC software, it sends only CW. Visit http://arhab.blogspot.org for full details, but the frequency is 29.499MHz, and if it is in the air, it should be at or near Europe right now. There is no GPS aboard, and the frequency used is good for
[15:17] <jcoxon> only short distance, so it hasn't been heard from since leaving North America.
[15:17] <jcoxon> An interesting design note - he is using a different style balloon from our SNOX balloons, one that is sealed, and designed to super-pressurize when warmed by the sun. For more details and signal reports please see his web page or email them at rochte@gmail.com.
[15:17] <jcoxon> (sorry for the flooding
[15:17] <jcoxon> )
[15:18] <mc-> Are they using a ballast?
[15:18] <mc-> the blog is rather sparse on detail
[15:18] <jcoxon> i'm not really sure
[15:18] <jcoxon> i don't think so, just seems to be a superpressure so it won't lose helium like a z pressure might
[15:19] <mc-> won't all types of balloon lose helium?
[15:19] <edmoore> only through diffusion
[15:19] <jcoxon> yes, but a z pressure can actually lose helium out the bottom
[15:20] <edmoore> but ignoring diffusion, ZP does actually loose helium by design, and SP doesn't
[15:20] <mc-> I thought a ZP was only partly filled, so it never lost any helium (apart from diffusion)?
[15:21] <edmoore> zps reach neutral density because the helium starts spilling out the hole in the bottom
[15:21] <jcoxon> as in as it goes up the helium expands spills out until lift equals payload weight
[15:22] <jcoxon> but
[15:22] <jcoxon> when night comes its cooler, less lift and drops
[15:22] <mc-> is a hybrid soln possible? ie a zp which is fully sealed, and uses ballast to make it float?
[15:22] <edmoore> that's SP
[15:23] <edmoore> in theory SPs have an altitude and they stay there
[15:23] <edmoore> with only small deviations for night and day
[15:23] <mc-> ah, so a SP doesn't have any particular pressure in it?
[15:23] <edmoore> the NASA ones that stay up weeks are all SP
[15:23] <jcoxon> the CNES ones are SPs
[15:23] <jcoxon> well they are a special typewhere they have different materials, and are very good at collecting heat
[15:24] <edmoore> I have a paper written by some guys in the eng dept on analysis of SP balloons
[15:24] <edmoore> can email it if you want
[15:24] <mc-> are SPs difficult to build?
[15:25] <edmoore> more difficult, for sure
[15:25] <edmoore> than zp
[15:25] <edmoore> envelope is subject to much higher forces, tolerances have to be better, and so on
[15:26] <mc-> does a sp have any internal pressure, or does it stay at atmospheric pressure?
[15:26] <jcoxon> mc-, sp = superpressure
[15:26] <jcoxon> so it'll be a higher pressure at altitude
[15:27] <edmoore> mc-: got email, ty
[15:27] <edmoore> how does one squirt it on - should I read the bin protocol?
[15:27] <mc-> the -ve of a zp is it loses helium. ed, I'll send you another email
[15:28] <edmoore> lol ok
[15:28] <edmoore> i'll leave such convo off here
[15:28] <mc-> if a zp is fully sealed, but remains at atmosphere pressure, then it won't lose helium?
[15:28] <jcoxon> but that won't work
[15:29] <jcoxon> as it rises the atmos pressure goes down, but we only have a set volume
[15:29] <jcoxon> so the pressure inside will be different
[15:29] <mc-> if the zp is only partly filled, then it can equalize the pressure?
[15:29] <edmoore> the envelope is a fixed volume
[15:29] <edmoore> and the mass of helium is fixed
[15:29] <edmoore> so as it goes up, the relative pressure between inside and outside rises
[15:30] <mc-> and then envelope gets larger, am I missing something?
[15:30] <edmoore> because the outside pressure drops, but the helium inside cannot expand anymore
[15:30] <edmoore> it can't - it's not stretchy
[15:30] <jcoxon> mc-, oh the mylar won't stretch
[15:31] <mc-> if it's only slightly filled at ground level, then it will expand to full size at altitude?
[15:31] <edmoore> yes, but it won't expand any more than that
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[15:32] <edmoore> so with a zp, it'll expand to full size, then helium will start coming out the bottom
[15:32] <edmoore> untill it reaches neutral
[15:32] <edmoore> but the sp, it expands to full size, then the relative internal pressure starts increasing
[15:32] <edmoore> until it reaches neutral
[15:32] <edmoore> the difference is, one looses helium, the other doesn't
[15:32] <edmoore> so sp can recover from day/night cycles
[15:32] <edmoore> zp cannot, unless you have ballast
[15:33] <mc-> a zp loses helium in the night because it descends?
[15:33] <edmoore> gtg sorry!
[15:33] <edmoore> bbl
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[15:33] <jcoxon> mc-, no
[15:33] <jcoxon> its more that it loses helium in the day as it reaches neutral
[15:34] <jcoxon> it then descends due to the cooling at night
[15:34] <mc-> I understand a zp loses helium on the ascent
[15:34] <jcoxon> but doesn't now have as much helium
[15:35] <mc-> if the zp hole was blocked once it was floating, then it shouldn't lose any more helium?
[15:35] <jcoxon> i guess so
[15:35] <mc-> so the next day, it would float back to the same altitude?
[15:36] <jcoxon> i'm not sure, could do
[15:38] <mc-> just wondering if ballast is not required? That could make a trans Atlantic crossing much easier
[15:38] <jcoxon> i think the ballast option would be easier
[15:39] <mc-> but makes the balloon much bigger
[15:39] <mc-> if a zp could float, and then close the vent, then maybe ballast might not be needed?
[15:40] <jcoxon> mc-, hmmm i'd have to work this through on paper
[15:40] <jcoxon> run it by ed if i were you :-p
[15:40] <mc-> or could you ask Bill Brown?
[15:41] <jcoxon> he would be a good person to talk to
[15:42] <jcoxon> i haven't spoken to Bill in a few weeks
[15:42] <mc-> I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, so there must be something that doesn't work.
[15:43] <natrium42> hey mc- & jcoxon
[15:43] <mc-> I noticed arhab is using a mailing envelope, hey natrium
[15:44] <natrium42> should receive my sat phone tomorrow
[15:45] <natrium42> think it's a good idea to test it locally first?
[15:45] <natrium42> i.e. with a regular HAB
[15:45] <jcoxon> natrium42, oh definitely
[15:45] <natrium42> ok, but it should work at high altitude, i hope :)
[15:45] <mc-> natrium, I'm working on a cutdown using a radio transmitter. Then you could get it back.
[15:46] <natrium42> cool, still haven't got my license, though
[15:47] <mc-> it would just need a 2 secs of morse to fire
[15:47] <mc-> don't think you would be in trouble sending that
[15:48] <natrium42> hmm, guess not :)
[15:49] <mc-> or you could use a timer, so it cutdown after 30mins, or however long you could wait.
[15:50] <natrium42> halo1/2 had automatic cutdown if it got past a certain lat/long
[15:51] <natrium42> so as to avoid water
[15:51] <mc-> I was working on a transmitter, so I could send steering commands to a chute. Have you got an old kite?
[15:52] <natrium42> yes
[15:53] <mc-> so far my code, steers left with a morse '.' , and right on a '-'
[15:54] <natrium42> is there a CRC?
[15:55] <mc-> no, I was thinking that it would steer left/right for a second, and then revert back to the centre.
[15:57] <natrium42> i am just worrying about interference
[15:57] <mc-> if there's interference, it's screwed...
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[16:09] <Laurenceb> Hi all
[16:10] <natrium42> heyo Laurenceb
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[16:47] <Laurenceb> bbl
[17:09] <natrium42> guh, the satphone guys are a little clueless about fedex priority
[17:09] <natrium42> telling me that it takes 3 days, when in fact it's overnight between us&canada
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[19:31] <Laurenceb> phatmonkey: you about?
[19:33] <Laurenceb> I'm planning on getting some work done on the zagi, sorry it sort of stalled before :P
[19:34] <Laurenceb> I'm going to get a flight computer board assembled asap
[19:34] <natrium42> Laurenceb, when's launch?
[19:35] <Laurenceb> what for? the aerosol payload?
[19:35] <Laurenceb> I dont know, I've left it at uni... It needs a bit more testing
[19:36] <natrium42> yeah
[19:36] <Laurenceb> not 100% sure about the phone
[19:36] <natrium42> ok, i see
[19:36] <Laurenceb> and altho the codes run on my pc, I'd be happier to see some more tests on the real hardware
[19:37] <natrium42> yah, definitely
[19:38] <Laurenceb> its nice having an sd card, as I can load in nmea
[19:38] <Laurenceb> using the nmea sim code on the wiki
[19:39] <phatmonkey> I will be back in a bit - easting
[19:39] <phatmonkey> er
[19:39] <phatmonkey> eating
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[19:39] <natrium42> haha
[19:39] <Laurenceb> hopefully my supervisor can sort it out
[19:40] <Laurenceb> tho I'm not sure if he's even touched a soldering iron :P
[19:41] <Laurenceb> he's good with programming and embedded linux
[19:41] <Laurenceb> its snowing here
[19:43] <Laurenceb> a bit exceptional for this time of year
[19:44] <natrium42> :P
[19:44] <natrium42> we still have mountains of snow here
[19:45] <Laurenceb> too cold for me
[19:45] <jcoxon> i made a snowman yesterday
[19:45] <Laurenceb> :D
[19:45] <jcoxon> we had a lot of snow
[19:46] <jcoxon> and will be getting more tonight apparently
[19:46] <Laurenceb> there wasn't any in oxford yesterday, apparently in derbyshire there was a few inches yesterday morning
[19:47] <Laurenceb> but its melted now
[19:49] <Laurenceb> I was just firing up the rogallo... its a pity it didnt work
[19:49] <Laurenceb> I'm tempted to make a few modifications and try again
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[19:50] <Laurenceb> write the code in c, remove some of the molex connectors and the switched mode supply, use spi for the uC to uC comms, and use different optocouplers
[19:51] <Laurenceb> those are the main shortcomings... I think the switched mode supply, and optocouplers were the problem causers
[19:53] <Laurenceb> from the way the hot melt glue had shattered it a couple of places on landing, it obviously got very cold
[19:53] <Laurenceb> it=in*
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[19:54] <Laurenceb> hello phatmonkey
[19:57] <phatmonkey> hey Laurenceb
[19:58] <Laurenceb> so, I'm plaiing on getting some work done on the zagi
[19:58] <Laurenceb> I'm designing a flight computer with a mega324p avr
[19:59] <Laurenceb> the thermopile amplifier board is assembled, so I'll send it off to RocketBoy as he's got the enclosure
[19:59] <phatmonkey> oh cool
[20:00] <phatmonkey> at the moment
[20:00] <phatmonkey> well, I probably don't really have any time to help
[20:00] <Laurenceb> I'm probably going to use pcbcart, as batchpcb lost my provious mega64 design in the post :(
[20:00] <Laurenceb> what are you up to?
[20:00] <Laurenceb> a levels?
[20:01] <phatmonkey> yeah
[20:01] <Laurenceb> haha, I have finals coming up :(
[20:01] <phatmonkey> ah, good luck!
[20:01] <Laurenceb> thanx
[20:01] <Laurenceb> where are you applying?
[20:01] <phatmonkey> well, do you want to work on the zagi? I could get it to you somehow if you wanted
[20:02] <phatmonkey> well, university application has all gone a bit weird for me
[20:02] <Laurenceb> its ok, I'll only have time to do this board
[20:02] <Laurenceb> right
[20:02] <phatmonkey> i have a place for general engineering at warwick now
[20:02] <Laurenceb> sounds cool
[20:02] <phatmonkey> gone off physics, not sure why
[20:02] <phatmonkey> but then again, I might take a gap year and reapply
[20:02] <phatmonkey> not really sure yet
[20:03] <Laurenceb> ok
[20:03] <Laurenceb> well eng at warick sounds good
[20:06] <Laurenceb> I dont really want to go any further with physics
[20:06] <Laurenceb> I'll probably move into electronics in some way... will have to see
[20:11] <phatmonkey> yes
[20:11] <phatmonkey> it doesn't directly lead to many careers does it
[20:11] <Laurenceb> well, studied at university level its very useful
[20:12] <Laurenceb> but once you start to go beyond degree level it starts to become a bit
[20:12] <Laurenceb> less so
[20:13] <Laurenceb> IMO... guess it depends exactly what field your specialising in
[20:14] <Laurenceb> someone with a phd in string theory isnt exactly useful in the real world :P
[20:15] <Laurenceb> but condensed matter physics is vital in semiconductor fabrication (even though I hate it)
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[22:01] <Laurenceb> turn of channel 4 if your in the UK
[22:01] <jcoxon> am watching it
[22:02] <jcoxon> damn sondes, not working
[22:02] <jcoxon> amateurs
[22:02] <jcoxon> haha
[22:10] <Laurenceb> lmao
[22:11] <natrium42> whaaat? :(
[22:11] <Laurenceb> "we cant get a gps lock" XD
[22:11] <akawaka> what you watvching?
[22:11] <natrium42> please transcribe it for us!
[22:11] <jcoxon> hehe, its happened to us before
[22:11] <jcoxon> oh its these guys who attempted to parafoil above everest
[22:11] <jcoxon> and they launched weather sondes to check the weather
[22:11] <jcoxon> but they keep messing up the launch etc
[22:11] <natrium42> baer?
[22:11] <jcoxon> should of got us to help
[22:13] <natrium42> *have!!
[22:13] <jcoxon> hehe, edmoore isn't here
[22:13] <natrium42> is it his pet peeve also?
[22:13] <jcoxon> so i can get it wrong
[22:13] <jcoxon> yup
[22:13] <natrium42> XD
[22:24] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, you'd think they would downlink the data
[22:24] <jcoxon> and not have to ask!
[22:25] <jcoxon> their equipment seems to fail at 7000m yet we can push things to a lot higher
[22:26] <jcoxon> i know we don't have a person attached as well
[22:26] <jcoxon> but still their altmeters seems to be giving up
[22:45] Action: jcoxon is an idiot
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[23:15] <Laurenceb> ooops, sorry was away
[23:15] <Laurenceb> gtg, cya all
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[00:00] --- Tue Mar 25 2008