highaltitude.log.20070318

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[00:24] <LaurenceB> http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/Bil-Bristol.pdf
[00:32] <LaurenceB> http://webstore.mlxsemi.com/mlxstore.asp?family=MLX90247
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[15:29] <edwardmoore> hi jcoxon
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[18:20] <edwardmoore> hi rocketboy\
[18:25] <rocketboy> hi ed
[18:25] <edwardmoore> got your email
[18:25] <rocketboy> whtdyathink
[18:25] <edwardmoore> fair enough- tomorrow does look pretty frim
[18:25] <edwardmoore> grim*
[18:26] <rocketboy> yeah
[18:26] <rocketboy> better to leave it a few days
[18:27] <rocketboy> in any event i'm having trouble with the radio link
[18:27] <edwardmoore> means i don't have to get up at stupid o'clock tomorrow too, which is nice
[18:27] <rocketboy> bonus
[18:27] <edwardmoore> oh?
[18:27] <rocketboy> yeah - I cant figure it
[18:27] <rocketboy> I'm using an absolute stabdard circuit from the data sheet
[18:28] <rocketboy> (keyloc chips)
[18:28] <rocketboy> The transmitters transmitting
[18:28] <rocketboy> the receiver is reciving the signal fine
[18:28] <rocketboy> the data is going over the link fine
[18:29] <rocketboy> the reciver chip seems to be working - its responding to key presses
[18:29] <rocketboy> so it all should be working but it isn't
[18:30] <rocketboy> The only thing is that the circuit in the datasheet seems to have changed
[18:30] <edwardmoore> in what way?
[18:30] <rocketboy> from an older version
[18:30] <rocketboy> - well in the old version there is an inverter on the data line on the transmitter
[18:31] <rocketboy> and on the new version of the datasheet there isn't
[18:31] <edwardmoore> does it look like the newer one is clocking out the right sort of things?
[18:31] <rocketboy> also in the new version an LED is shown the wrong way round for it to work
[18:32] <rocketboy> yep - data sounds and looks (on a scope) fine - 0V to +4V (on a 5V Vcc)
[18:32] <rocketboy> I'm just wondering if the inverter did anything
[18:33] <rocketboy> given the link is manchester encoded - ten an inverter would make a difference
[18:33] <rocketboy> ten = then
[18:33] <rocketboy> so whay is the old and new datasheets different?
[18:34] <rocketboy> anyway - I'll ring then tomorrow
[18:34] <edwardmoore> might be worth a bash. that is odd though- have any of the components been updated between then and now?
[18:34] <rocketboy> then = them
[18:34] <edwardmoore> lol
[18:34] <edwardmoore> figured :)
[18:35] <rocketboy> nah - everything is the same except the inverter - hand on I'll send the URLs
[18:35] <edwardmoore> ok ty
[18:35] <rocketboy> http://www.rfsolutions.co.uk/acatalog/DS600-10_RF600.pdf - see bottom of page 3
[18:38] <edwardmoore> brb just going to grab a drink..
[18:38] <rocketboy> ok
[18:39] <edwardmoore> manchester encoding is cool
[18:39] <edwardmoore> do you know of any good books that teach someone who knows nothing about RF slightly more about RF?
[18:41] <rocketboy> the RSGB books used to be good - but I havn't read one for years
[18:42] <edwardmoore> the circuit looks so simple that it looks like adding an inverter would be the only thing to try!
[18:42] <rocketboy> OK this is weird - the latest version of the other datasheet shows the transister inverter back in again - but I only printed out the datasheet a couple of weeks ago
[18:43] <rocketboy> they have updated it in the last two weeks - my guess is that they had the worng version up
[18:44] <rocketboy> - so I have built the circuit without the inverter
[18:44] <edwardmoore> odd, but it looks like that's the way forward!
[18:44] <rocketboy> So I'll make another version with an inverter
[18:45] <edwardmoore> coolio- let me know how it goes
[18:46] <rocketboy> here is the RSGB site http://www.rsgb.org.uk/
[18:47] <edwardmoore> cool thank you
[18:48] <rocketboy> the ARRL is the US version of the RSGB - they used to go some good beginner books
[18:48] <rocketboy> very practical
[18:49] <edwardmoore> practical suits
[18:51] <edwardmoore> the ARRL handbook would be good then?
[18:52] <rocketboy> yeah - I have a very old copy (it has valves in it) - you are welcome to borrow - also the RSGB VHF handbook too
[18:54] <edwardmoore> awesome ty. would be great to de-mystify some of this stuff!
[18:55] <rocketboy> happy to give you a run though of the basics on a whiteboard some time
[18:56] <edwardmoore> that would be awesome- i'd appreciate it very much
[18:57] <rocketboy> perhaps we could do it round the whiteboard in your lab next time i'm over there
[18:57] <rocketboy> Some other the others might be interested too
[18:57] <edwardmoore> yes definatelly
[18:57] <edwardmoore> awesome :)
[18:59] <edwardmoore> have finally begun to get PICs sorted
[19:00] <edwardmoore> decided to start from assembler and fundamentals instead of asking henry a load of c-related stuff- makes a lot more sense now
[19:01] <rocketboy> yeah - assembler is a good starting point - you really get to understand the way the PICS work that way
[19:02] <rocketboy> - plus you can really pack some functionality into a small space with assember
[19:02] <edwardmoore> it's been great so far... until I decided i need to do some trig functions :)
[19:03] <rocketboy> There is a floating point libary
[19:03] <edwardmoore> suddenly the c-compilers looked more attractive. but it's nice to know i can do both now when i need to. i'm guessing the bit-bashing routines will be better in assembler
[19:03] <edwardmoore> is there?
[19:03] <rocketboy> I think it includes SIN COS TAN SQRT etc.
[19:03] <rocketboy> hang on I'll look
[19:03] <edwardmoore> that'd be very exciting
[19:05] <rocketboy> yep - seems so
[19:06] <rocketboy> I'll see if I can find them on the microchip site
[19:06] <edwardmoore> cool. will have a poke around
[19:08] <rocketboy> application note 660 - http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00660.pdf
[19:09] <rocketboy> OK _ i'm off to build the other version of the circuit - BBL
[19:10] <edwardmoore> ok cool- cya later. thanks for the link
[19:11] <edwardmoore> fun reading this evening!
[19:31] <jcoxon> hey all
[19:36] <jcoxon> bbl
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[21:01] <LaurenceB> Hi all
[21:06] <edwardmoore> hi laurenceb
[21:08] <LaurenceB> looking at thermopile sensors
[21:09] <LaurenceB> I've been experimenting with my antaris gps today, not very impressed, sirf2 is better
[21:10] <edwardmoore> lol
[21:10] <edwardmoore> such is life
[21:10] <LaurenceB> there is a firmware upgrade I plan to try, I've emailed u-blox to check it will work, hopefully they will reply tomorrow
[21:10] <edwardmoore> have you seen the yummy 5hz one spark are now doing?
[21:10] <LaurenceB> hmmm christmas time...
[21:10] <edwardmoore> lol
[21:11] <LaurenceB> but with thermopile stabilization high gps rate is not needed
[21:12] <edwardmoore> but it's not as sexy
[21:12] <LaurenceB> theres a US company called FMA direct, they sell thermopile stabilization systems quite cheap
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[21:13] <jcoxon> edwardmoore, postpone tomorrow?
[21:13] <edwardmoore> yarp
[21:13] <jcoxon> cool
[21:13] <edwardmoore> weaher looks bad
[21:13] <LaurenceB> whats was planned for tomorrow?
[21:13] <edwardmoore> peg 5 :p
[21:13] <edwardmoore> ha
[21:13] <jcoxon> oh ed and i were doing our parafoil stuff
[21:13] <LaurenceB> oh cool
[21:13] <jcoxon> LaurenceB, its not peg V
[21:14] <edwardmoore> (i was joking)
[21:14] <jcoxon> that'll be soon
[21:14] <LaurenceB> i see
[21:14] <LaurenceB> brb
[21:14] <edwardmoore> it also means i can get up at a more happy hour
[21:14] <jcoxon> hehe indeed
[21:15] <jcoxon> hmmm i'm bored
[21:15] <edwardmoore> why?
[21:15] <jcoxon> cause i've got nothing to do at home
[21:15] <jcoxon> no use starting anything
[21:15] <LaurenceB> I'm not convinced by parafoils and rogallo wings anymore
[21:16] <LaurenceB> they have to go relativly slowly
[21:16] <LaurenceB> and thus are effected by turbulence/ gusts of wind
[21:16] <edwardmoore> why is it no use starting anything?
[21:16] <LaurenceB> build a high alt glider lol
[21:16] <jcoxon> cause i'm going back to cam tomorrow
[21:17] <edwardmoore> oh yeah i forgot
[21:17] <jcoxon> and i've got things to do in cam
[21:17] <jcoxon> fun with bones
[21:17] <edwardmoore> as ever
[21:17] <LaurenceB> are you still both keen on parafoils?
[21:18] <jcoxon> LaurenceB, yeah, we had some interesting results
[21:18] <jcoxon> encouraging
[21:18] <edwardmoore> I like them i must say
[21:18] <LaurenceB> after some experiments I plan to modify an old rc plane with thermopile stabilization
[21:18] <LaurenceB> and gps shifting the null position
[21:18] <jcoxon> LaurenceB, and its fun experimenting on them even if in the end it doesn't work to plan
[21:19] <LaurenceB> yes:P
[21:19] <LaurenceB> I hadnt conisdered the effects of turbulence before
[21:19] <LaurenceB> its no use if it keeps stalling
[21:19] <LaurenceB> due to gusts
[21:20] <LaurenceB> "windshear" is that called?
[21:20] <edwardmoore> we'll certainly be limited by launch conditions i think
[21:20] <LaurenceB> yes, unfortunately you need a clear day for thermopiles
[21:20] <edwardmoore> i'm not so worried about wind shear
[21:21] <LaurenceB> guess its okay if you pick the conditions
[21:22] <edwardmoore> aye
[21:22] <LaurenceB> of course it will work with just a rudder and gps
[21:23] <LaurenceB> as I've planned before
[21:23] <edwardmoore> will you have some stability on the roll axis?
[21:24] <LaurenceB> but thermopile stabilization is easier to do
[21:24] <LaurenceB> well with thermopiles, the gps heading offset shifts the roll stabilization offset
[21:25] <LaurenceB> without, the offset goes through PI loop to rudder servo
[21:25] <edwardmoore> ok
[21:26] <LaurenceB> if I've got pitch stabilization via thermopiles as well, then the pitch offset can be adjusted to keep the glider heading at a decent speed
[21:28] <rocketboy> hey ed - fixed it - it works!
[21:28] <edwardmoore> the invertor?
[21:28] <rocketboy> yep - thats all it needed - a duff data sheet
[21:29] <edwardmoore> grrrrrrrr
[21:29] <edwardmoore> well it's cool that it's now working
[21:29] <rocketboy> it seems quite sensitive too
[21:30] <edwardmoore> in a good way?
[21:30] <rocketboy> yep
[21:30] Action: jcoxon has a 386 box that needs a job - prizes for anyone who can think of something cool and slightly unusual
[21:31] <LaurenceB> slightly more complicated idea for pitch control... find a target speed for the given altitude, integrate the differnece between gps speed and target and use it to shift the null point for pitch stabilization
[21:31] <LaurenceB> - gps speed and target speed
[21:31] <LaurenceB> brb
[21:33] <edwardmoore> it must be possible to use all the power of a 386 for something.....
[21:33] <edwardmoore> jcoxon how about the brains for motion control for your cnc hot wire cutter?
[21:33] <jcoxon> ooo i like that idea
[21:34] <edwardmoore> feed it bitmaps or something, and it can make them
[21:37] <LaurenceB> bbl food :-)
[21:39] <jcoxon> use stepper motors off junk
[21:39] <jcoxon> parallel port
[21:40] <edwardmoore> my question though is what you attach the other end of the wire to?
[21:40] <jcoxon> from the port?
[21:40] <edwardmoore> actually you can probably ignore that question
[21:41] <rocketboy> if you want some steppers I'm throwing some out
[21:41] <edwardmoore> no the cutting wire
[21:41] <jcoxon> oh i have no idea
[21:41] <jcoxon> i think got to make a stepper motor work first
[21:41] <jcoxon> hehe i can be super lazy and use the motor controllers off the drive themselves
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[22:01] <rocketboy> the next couple of weekends look good jet-stream wise
[22:02] <edwardmoore> thinking of tying in a balloon launch with some drop tests?
[22:03] <rocketboy> I was thinking of using a parafoil (but no steering) instread of a normal chute - and sending up a video camera to see how it fairs inflating
[22:05] <jcoxon> interesting
[22:05] <jcoxon> rocketboy, you probably want an update on our progress
[22:05] <jcoxon> basically we've built a dual servo payload and restrung a parafoil
[22:06] <rocketboy> did you use the one from the NOVA lab?
[22:06] <rocketboy> (parafoil)
[22:07] <jcoxon> no we used the one i had
[22:08] <jcoxon> but its a parafoil
[22:08] <jcoxon> basically we weren't sure of hte angle of attack
[22:08] <jcoxon> so have used a bar controlled by a servo
[22:08] <rocketboy> did you re-string it like the Black Rainbow
[22:08] <jcoxon> so we can work out the correct angle
[22:08] <jcoxon> yeah quite similar
[22:09] <rocketboy> so you have just to attcahment points?
[22:09] <rocketboy> to = two
[22:09] <jcoxon> we have 2 bars
[22:09] <jcoxon> which the lines come down to
[22:10] <jcoxon> but they are still seperated
[22:10] <jcoxon> give me a sec i'll upload some pics
[22:10] <rocketboy> so one bar for pitch the other for roll
[22:10] <rocketboy> ok
[22:10] <jcoxon> no sorry - 2 bars as the attachemnt points
[22:10] <jcoxon> like black rainbow
[22:11] <rocketboy> ah ok
[22:11] <LaurenceB> I hadn't thought of that, so the angle of the bars is changed to control the angle of attack?
[22:11] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:11] <jcoxon> its only to work out the best angle
[22:11] <LaurenceB> and height difference between them contols the steering?
[22:14] <edwardmoore> the angle difference
[22:14] <LaurenceB> I've made a romote control payload for my rogallo with three lines
[22:14] <LaurenceB> oh I see
[22:14] <edwardmoore> i've no idea if it'll work.... well i think it'll work, but not optimally, but at least we can play with angle of attack and steer with 2 servos, which will be helpful for testing
[22:16] <LaurenceB> the back two lines go onto a bar with a servo in the center and the front one onto the end of a bar sticking out of the front that hinges up and down off a second servo
[22:16] <edwardmoore> we're sure about the stability of having all the lines go to a single bar
[22:16] <edwardmoore> weren't*
[22:17] <LaurenceB> havent tried this with the rogallo yet, flew it on friday with some floor tiles on the bottom, but it was rather windy
[22:21] <LaurenceB> it was increadibly slow, I could keep up with it even tho the tiles weighed about 1kg
[22:22] <LaurenceB> so the wind caused it to keep stalling, and when glides of any sort stall they tend to change direction
[22:25] <rocketboy> BBS (BB Shortly)
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[22:29] <LaurenceB> having said that, a smaller faster fling rogallo wing/parafoil wouldnt necessarily be a bad idea
[22:29] <LaurenceB> and it would be interesting to try thermopile roll stabilization on one
[22:32] <jcoxon> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/parawing/
[22:33] <LaurenceB> ohh
[22:34] <LaurenceB> looks very similar to what I made for the rogallo
[22:40] <LaurenceB> I've built "steer.gif" witha front arm for pitch contol
[22:43] <jcoxon> right i'm off
[22:43] <jcoxon> night all
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[22:44] <rocketboy> me 2 cuya
[22:47] <LaurenceB> cya
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[00:00] --- Mon Mar 19 2007