highaltitude.log.20070113

[00:06] <cablito2> The problem is
[00:07] <cablito2> essentially the point the Xprize was trying to make
[00:07] <cablito2> backfired in my opnion
[00:07] <cablito2> The answer is; today no civilian company can get to space unless they intent to spend as much or more money than governments
[00:08] <cablito2> Not to mention safety
[00:08] <cablito2> and I am not even a safety freak or anything, but the fact is, its safer to relly on a 40 year old design russian rocket engine
[00:09] <cablito2> than any private-corporation built one regardless of how much money gets injected into it.
[00:09] <icez> gotta start somewhere
[00:09] <icez> :P
[00:09] <icez> I really like the idea of commercial rockets and such
[00:10] <icez> even though they aren't as good yet
[00:10] <cablito2> I am in love with rocket engines
[00:10] <cablito2> I´ve been since I was 13
[00:10] <cablito2> when I designed a pulse-jet
[00:10] <cablito2> not knowing they existed already
[00:11] <cablito2> It was then that I realized how real rocket engines worked
[00:11] <cablito2> and was fascinated ever since
[00:11] <icez> mmm, when I was about that age I remade the pathfinder sojourner rover with another set of wheels so it wouldn't get stuck
[00:11] <icez> :p
[00:11] <icez> with some building kit
[00:11] <cablito2> I am kinda 30 nowdays btw
[00:11] <icez> oh.
[00:12] <icez> a little older :]
[00:12] <cablito2> what you said about "starting somewhere"
[00:12] <cablito2> yes and no
[00:12] <cablito2> imagine a nuclear bomb
[00:12] <icez> :|
[00:12] <icez> don't say anymore, I see the point
[00:12] <icez> :P
[00:13] <cablito2> building rocket engines is like building a nuclear bomb, with your parents monthly budget :)
[00:13] <icez> but nuclear bombs are way stupider than rocket engines
[00:13] <cablito2> indeed
[00:13] <cablito2> dirty ones at least
[00:14] <cablito2> making "a bomb" not explode is way harder; rocket engines are bombs
[00:14] <icez> yeah..
[00:14] <cablito2> although I´ve seen guys on the net designing clusters of small ones
[00:14] <cablito2> that turn out to be less dangerous
[00:14] <icez> that's the double-edged sword thing :]
[00:15] <cablito2> but without access to high strenth/light weight material they dont produce enough trust
[00:15] <cablito2> there is a book outthere on the net
[00:15] <cablito2> "open" book
[00:15] <cablito2> Its very interesting and you get all excited
[00:15] <cablito2> because its written by someone with vast amount of know-how in the thing
[00:15] <cablito2> after its all said and carved on wood
[00:16] <cablito2> the guy says: "amateur build rockets engine won't be efficient enough to fly"
[00:17] <cablito2> and after seeing hundreds of formulas and detailed data, you figure you cant even fully comprehend that and just assumes the guy knows what he is talking about.
[00:20] <jcoxon> hehe
[00:20] <cablito2> And the brazilian space program
[00:20] <cablito2> its sad it went down river
[00:21] <cablito2> I have very close contact information
[00:21] <cablito2> I actually was going to work on the base on radar software development
[00:21] <cablito2> when all funding was cut
[00:22] <cablito2> first launch was sabotage, 2 accident the blowing up was just flat out lack of know-how
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[00:25] <cablito2> we lost ALL our top scientists; including a lot of people I knew
[00:26] <jcoxon> :(
[00:26] <cablito2> They usually were teachers at university
[00:26] <cablito2> the first one was a flat out sabotage
[00:26] <cablito2> the guy that CHECKED the safety valves were open
[00:26] <cablito2> used to date one of my step-sisters
[00:27] <cablito2> he was a major geek
[00:27] <cablito2> and he was there
[00:28] <jcoxon> wow
[00:30] <cablito2> This weekend I am gonna have to work saturday and possibly sunday
[00:30] <cablito2> otherwise I was going to start doing some welding tests with plastic bags
[00:31] <cablito2> what I think about sollar balloons and I might be all wrong
[00:31] <cablito2> is that you have to use guide lines wrapping it
[00:32] <cablito2> after it reaches a certain size, otherwise even thought they can produce lift
[00:32] <cablito2> it would be hard to "atach" weight to it
[00:32] <jcoxon> i'm really not sure
[00:33] <jcoxon> i've got no experience of them - gonna stick to helium
[00:33] <cablito2> I always thought helium was the only alternative for high alts
[00:33] <cablito2> but the price and logistics involved
[00:33] <cablito2> Imagine i was to launch one
[00:33] <cablito2> helium balloon
[00:33] <jcoxon> i'm yet to see a proper solar balloon work
[00:33] <jcoxon> its alot more work i reckon
[00:34] <jcoxon> helium just goes up
[00:34] <cablito2> I´d need a small truck to carry helium to launch site
[00:34] <jcoxon> i find tanks fit in a car fine
[00:34] <cablito2> then the cops pull you over and you´ve got this considerable amounts of "gas"
[00:34] <cablito2> they are gonna ask questions
[00:34] <cablito2> and cops usually dont care about what you answer
[00:35] <cablito2> "Yes, thats all nice, but what are those tanks for?"
[00:35] <jcoxon> hmmmm never had an issue
[00:35] <jcoxon> :-0
[00:36] <cablito2> neither have I, but I dont want to have to explain why I got that huge load of gas on my truck and what will apper to be an balloon "that will crash a boeing" or "set the woods on fire"
[00:37] <cablito2> "inert gas" means very little for iliterates.
[00:37] <jcoxon> hehe
[00:37] <jcoxon> i think your exagerating the amount of gas you'll need
[00:37] <cablito2> hehe.
[00:38] <jcoxon> right i better get some sleep
[00:38] <jcoxon> night all
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[09:29] <DarkFlib> hey
[09:35] <DarkFlib> with regards to the space station conversation earlier, microgravity is a big disadvantage...#
[09:36] <DarkFlib> since its hard to design control systems for liquid pumping etc...
[09:36] <DarkFlib> liquids don't just fall to the bottom of their containers
[09:37] <DarkFlib> also making a nuclear weapon on a low budget wont be that difficult... there are a few grams of uranium per ton of sea water...
[09:37] <DarkFlib> you just have to process it...
[09:38] <DarkFlib> and you can do that on a budget
[09:53] <DarkFlib> anyway... I'm outta here for a bit
[09:53] <DarkFlib> remember, if you want me say my name....
[09:53] <DarkFlib> :)
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[14:22] <Max0> hey all my gps arrived today :)
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[15:32] <jcoxon> wow
[15:32] <jcoxon> some many people on the channel these days :-D
[15:37] <LaurenceB> say does anyone know how I can get more than two audio input channels on a pc
[15:39] <jcoxon> without another card?
[15:39] <LaurenceB> ie more than just one sterio input
[15:39] <LaurenceB> erm if I install another card, can I treat it as a seperate channel?
[15:40] <jcoxon> don't see why not
[15:40] <jcoxon> certainly in linux you could
[15:40] <jcoxon> you can get usb2 sound cards as well if its a laptop
[15:41] <LaurenceB> this isn't really balloon related, but I've built a seismometer
[15:41] <LaurenceB> and If I had 3 I could built a footstep logger
[15:42] <LaurenceB> have something running on a pc where you could log in to see what was happening
[15:43] <icez> some guy wants to float a giant inflated banana over texas next year
[15:43] <icez> the url is in french though
[15:43] <icez> :/
[15:44] <LaurenceB> okay, thats a bit different
[15:45] <LaurenceB> Seismometers are awsome, I can detect my neighbours walking around there house, and hear stuff going down the sewer
[15:45] <icez> lol
[15:46] <LaurenceB> unfortunately not very applicable to ballooning
[15:46] <LaurenceB> but would make a very good security system
[15:46] <icez> airborne seismic activity
[15:46] <icez> ;p
[15:47] <LaurenceB> with an array of 3 and a pc I should be able to locate footsteps to within 50cm
[15:47] <icez> nice way to scare your neighbors
[15:47] <icez> :/
[15:47] <icez> "you're in the kitchen walking toward your living room"
[15:47] <icez> :P
[15:48] <LaurenceB> just one of those pezio things with a brick on top and a powerful amplifier
[15:49] <LaurenceB> bolted on top of a big concrete block
[15:53] <LaurenceB> there isn't airborne seismic activity but there is intrasound
[15:53] <LaurenceB> the "roswell incident" was supposidly a high alt infrasound detecting balloon
[15:53] <LaurenceB> to spy on the reds
[15:54] <Max0> my gps tuned up today
[15:54] <Max0> :)
[15:54] <LaurenceB> -infrasound not intrasound
[15:54] <LaurenceB> cool
[15:54] <Max0> also just found a very cool way to connect the sd card to a device...
[15:55] <LaurenceB> how?
[15:55] <Max0> using a floopy disk cable
[15:55] <Max0> floppy*
[15:55] <LaurenceB> ohhh tell me more :-)
[15:55] <LaurenceB> I want to do that
[15:55] <Max0> ill find a url...
[15:57] <Max0> http://uanr.com/sdfloppy/
[15:57] <Max0> just fitted my card into a cable i had kicking about and i think it will work
[15:58] <LaurenceB> awsome I have a 32bit FAT library of using sd with avr's
[15:58] <Max0> one cable u get two of those connectors
[15:58] <Max0> ;)
[15:59] <LaurenceB> will use one for a flight log from my glider
[16:00] <Max0> :)
[16:01] <LaurenceB> was going to solder the card to the processor !
[16:01] <Max0> hehe i thought about soldering wires on to it
[16:02] <Max0> and found some connectors but they where quite expensive
[16:02] <Max0> happy days
[16:02] <LaurenceB> http://www.kidsinthepark.org/ghost/infrasoundrow1col2.html
[16:03] <LaurenceB> haven't read it yet but might work on a balloon
[16:03] <LaurenceB> paranormal investigations wtf??
[16:04] <Max0> lol
[16:04] <Max0> no pictures :(
[16:04] <LaurenceB> on second thought probably just a regular nutcase site
[16:05] <icez> haha
[16:07] <LaurenceB> I should get down to my local tip for a floppy connector
[16:08] <LaurenceB> last time I went I found a free laser printer
[16:08] <Max0> hehe
[16:09] <Max0> i got boxes of old bits
[16:09] <Max0> i could post u one
[16:09] <LaurenceB> everyone in the nearby office building was very confused to see me jumping into a huge skip
[16:10] <LaurenceB> max0 think I'll find one pretty easily
[16:10] <Max0> i would think so
[16:10] <Max0> :D
[16:12] <LaurenceB> http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/courses/phys403/303Project/Fall2003/DetectionOfAtmosphericInfrasound_by_ChrisOrban_2003Fall.pdf
[16:14] <LaurenceB> altho I dont think we could lift one of those tanks with a balloon
[16:24] <LaurenceB> http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/04/0357228
[16:24] <LaurenceB> elephant detection :-)
[16:24] <LaurenceB> airborne elepmant detecting balloon
[16:27] <LaurenceB> not as mad as: http://www.keelynet.com/greb/greb.htm
[16:33] <Max0> what on board bomputer are you goin for in your guilder?
[16:35] <LaurenceB> from display3000 , MiHAB3 uses it
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[16:37] <LaurenceB> http://www.shop-en.display3000.com/pd1142680610.htm?categoryId=0
[16:41] <Max0> cool
[16:43] <LaurenceB> program it with http://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=29&category_id=5&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=1
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[16:54] <LaurenceB> thinking of using one of these:
[16:54] <LaurenceB> http://www.globalspec.com/FeaturedProducts/Detail/Atmel/Atmels_New_SingleCycle_8051_Core/21524/0?fromSpotlight=1
[17:05] <Max0> i dont know anything about pics or micro controlers
[17:05] <Max0> maybe i should learn :D
[17:06] <LaurenceB> what are you using? or arn't you building anything
[17:08] <Max0> planning on using a router
[17:08] <Max0> might set it up as a war driving unit first
[17:08] <Max0> then move onto a ballon
[17:09] <LaurenceB> I do war cycling in oxford
[17:10] <LaurenceB> never have to go far tho :-)
[17:10] <LaurenceB> wonder if you could covertly install openwrt onto someones router?
[17:13] <Max0> heh
[17:13] <Max0> what do you use? laptop?
[17:13] <LaurenceB> yes
[17:13] <Max0> my gps card came today
[17:14] <LaurenceB> I think a directional ant would be best
[17:14] <Max0> yuh ive got a massive yagi
[17:14] <Max0> its something like 18dp
[17:14] <LaurenceB> is there an application for viewing detailed signal strenght?
[17:15] <Max0> yuh im sure there will be
[17:15] <Max0> linux or windows?
[17:15] <LaurenceB> windows
[17:15] <Max0> doesnt net stumbler do signal strenth?
[17:15] <LaurenceB> may say by to expensive bt broadband and use a wifi ant to get online
[17:16] <LaurenceB> net stumbler is that free?
[17:16] <Max0> yuh
[17:16] <LaurenceB> okay I'll download it (by wifi of course)
[17:17] <LaurenceB> the guy just along my street is the it guy at my old school and has unencripted wifi from his house
[17:17] <LaurenceB> he ought to know better
[17:18] <Max0> hehe
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[17:19] <LaurenceB> is there a way to connect to encripted networks?
[17:19] <Max0> yes
[17:19] <LaurenceB> how?
[17:19] <Max0> u can crack web keys in about 10 mins
[17:19] <Max0> if u know how to
[17:19] <LaurenceB> coool I heard about this actually
[17:20] <LaurenceB> isn't there some tool that analises every packet and guesses the key?
[17:20] <Max0> u need to gather a lot of packets and it works out the key
[17:20] <Max0> ive got a url of a video if u wana a see it been done
[17:21] <LaurenceB> hmmm have to rely on them being online
[17:21] <LaurenceB> I want to make a huge motorised dish in my garden
[17:22] <Max0> http://www.milw0rm.com/video/?start=30#
[17:22] <Max0> yeah they are online
[17:23] <Max0> think its a flash movie
[17:23] <LaurenceB> thanks, have you hacked any networks then?
[17:23] <Max0> tested it on my own
[17:24] <Max0> i like to know how do things ;)
[17:24] <Max0> but dont really go round hacking into things
[17:24] <Max0> just because i can
[17:24] <LaurenceB> you can go literally anywhere in oxford and get online
[17:25] <LaurenceB> just worried chavs might nick my laptop
[17:25] <Max0> heh
[17:26] <Max0> if u download netstubler and ride about im sure u will find a lot of things
[17:27] <Max0> do you know where i can get a 20 pin female conector
[17:27] <Max0> think its a idc
[17:30] <LaurenceB> nope sorry
[17:32] <LaurenceB> http://trevormarshall.com/biquad.htm
[17:34] <Max0> http://www.proconnect.pl/img/dscn9125.jpg
[17:34] <Max0> ive got one like that
[17:34] <Max0> 18db yagi :D
[17:35] <DarkFlib> ib
[17:36] <Max0> hey DarkFlib my gps turned up today :)
[17:37] <DarkFlib> I know I read the scrollback
[17:38] <DarkFlib> Atmel's New Single-Cycle 8051 Core <-- hmm... tempting
[17:41] <Max0> they feature 2 Kbytes and 4 Kbytes of Flash code
[17:41] <Max0> isnt that really really small
[17:42] <LaurenceB> it's designed to be fast, thats quite a lot of machine code
[17:42] <LaurenceB> altho the autopilot is 6k
[17:43] <DarkFlib> I was writing code in 1k of ROM and 256bytes of mem years ago...
[17:43] <DarkFlib> since they are low power, you can also afford to simplify the system by breaking it into subsystems...
[17:44] <DarkFlib> ie, 1 mcu for the altitude control, 1 for some payload controll etc
[17:44] <LaurenceB> year thats what I'm doing
[17:45] <Max0> how many lines of code can u get in 1kb
[17:45] <Max0> not many?
[17:45] <LaurenceB> hmm depend what your doing
[17:45] <LaurenceB> y=sin(x) uses about 500 bytes
[17:45] <LaurenceB> if your using floating point
[17:46] <DarkFlib> I would prbably used fixed point
[17:46] <LaurenceB> wheras a simple loop will only use a few bytes
[17:46] <DarkFlib> faster, but it requires a little more thought
[17:47] <LaurenceB> hmm I'm no expert on floating/fixed point maths on micros
[17:47] <LaurenceB> just use what I can get the compiler to support
[17:48] <DarkFlib> I used to write demos back in the 90s, so its a case of whatever you could do make it run faster to do better graphics rendering
[17:48] <DarkFlib> compilers... thats a novel idea
[17:48] <DarkFlib> :P
[17:48] <LaurenceB> for micros?
[17:48] Action: DarkFlib is an asm guy
[17:48] <LaurenceB> argg asm
[17:49] <LaurenceB> Did some of that at uni, had to code floating point multiplication in asm, mental
[17:49] <DarkFlib> floating point isn't too bad...
[17:50] <DarkFlib> case of multiply the mantissa and add the exponents iirc
[17:50] <DarkFlib> then normalise them
[17:50] <LaurenceB> Also had to build the computer from descrete logic chips on breadboard even more mental
[17:50] <DarkFlib> nah... thats cool... just make sure you have enough capacitors to reduce ripple on the supply lines
[17:51] <LaurenceB> ended up on several racks about the size of a microwave oven
[17:51] <DarkFlib> that was my biggest bug
[17:52] <DarkFlib> 8051 Architecture -- AT80C54X2, TS80C54X2 - 60Mhz, 3x 16bit timers, 256bytes RAM 16K ROM, UART, Watch Dog Timer
[17:52] <DarkFlib> looks nice... just need to see power requirements
[17:53] <DarkFlib> since the databus is availible you have almost unlimited i/o lines...
[17:54] <LaurenceB> I'm thinking of making some code to switch between tasks using timer interrupts
[17:54] <LaurenceB> but think 256 ram is too small for this
[17:55] <DarkFlib> ahhh... doesn't expose databus... has 32 gpio lines
[17:55] <LaurenceB> pity
[17:56] <DarkFlib> can dynamically reduce clock freq down to dc without data loss tho
[17:57] <LaurenceB> oh you can do that on avrs its cool
[17:57] <DarkFlib> has 4 interupts, so you could emulate a databus type affair...
[17:57] <DarkFlib> but the lack of RAM would hurt
[17:58] <LaurenceB> yes, I'm using a atmega2561 with 8k ram
[17:58] <LaurenceB> enough for buffered uart from gps
[18:01] <DarkFlib> seems to be able to access external mem using an alternate mode...
[18:01] <DarkFlib> but that would reduce equiv clock speed...
[18:01] <DarkFlib> since it uses ALE lines to latch the address
[18:04] <LaurenceB> its nice to have a micro that uses a bit of power it stays nice and warm
[18:07] <DarkFlib> I would rather just put the microcontroller in a better insulated place... and maybe put it inside the envelope
[18:07] <LaurenceB> I want to make something nasty to deal with bike theves using gps
[18:08] <DarkFlib> this mcu has an idle mode that is terminated on irq or hardware reset
[18:08] <DarkFlib> razor blades through the seat?
[18:08] <LaurenceB> avrs have that as well
[18:08] <LaurenceB> I was thinking electrified handlebars
[18:08] <LaurenceB> camera flash unit
[18:09] <DarkFlib> spray of indelible paint at the criminal?
[18:10] <LaurenceB> maybe
[18:10] <LaurenceB> I built a avr powered led text scroller for my bike wheels a couple of ears ago
[18:11] <LaurenceB> it used the idle mode with irq termination to turn off when the bike was stationary
[18:11] <LaurenceB> using just a few uA
[18:12] <DarkFlib> nice
[18:12] <DarkFlib> using a hall effect for position detection?
[18:12] <LaurenceB> the time delay was scaled so the text was always in the same place
[18:12] <LaurenceB> yes hall effect sensor
[18:13] <LaurenceB> want to build a new one using red, green, blue leds for full colour
[18:14] <DarkFlib> 8xn res?
[18:14] <LaurenceB> I saw someone made one with an irda link to a palm pilot
[18:14] <LaurenceB> yes, 8leds X 200 "pixels" around wheel
[18:14] <DarkFlib> k...
[18:15] <DarkFlib> shouldn't be too difficult to do rgb
[18:15] <LaurenceB> but if you want to do pulse lenght modulation it would need to be fast
[18:16] <DarkFlib> 30Mhz on many of the Atmel MCUs should be enough
[18:16] <DarkFlib> :P
[18:17] <LaurenceB> http://drewish.com/blogger/archives/2005/03/17/2sided_pov_toy.html
[18:17] <DarkFlib> it would be nice to have a couple of dip switches and read them to know which program you will be displaying
[18:19] <LaurenceB> http://flickr.com/photos/drewish/5449940/in/pool-make/
[18:23] <DarkFlib> hmmm... could possibly make the res much greater using shift registers....
[18:23] <DarkFlib> still need more memory tho
[18:26] <LaurenceB> arg my tumple dryer just exploded
[18:26] <DarkFlib> I suppose if you are only using text, then you could just rasterise it on the fly... but true graphics would be cool
[18:26] <DarkFlib> aww
[18:26] <LaurenceB> its dlown power to half the house
[18:26] <LaurenceB> luckly my pc is still on
[18:27] <DarkFlib> hmmm... snackage time... garibaldis or mini chedders?
[18:27] <LaurenceB> don't ask me
[18:27] <DarkFlib> garibaldis aka fly cemetarys
[18:27] <DarkFlib> I think
[18:28] <LaurenceB> okay power back on, but lots of smoke from tumble dryer
[18:31] <DarkFlib> hmmm... the AVR chips are sweet
[18:31] <DarkFlib> 2.2Ma at 4Mhz
[18:32] <DarkFlib> 2.2mA even
[18:32] <DarkFlib> 2.2MegaAmps would be excessive
[18:32] <LaurenceB> they have loads of stuff like hardware i2c, spi, uart, timers, irq's , isp ect, ect
[18:33] <LaurenceB> they have loads of stuff like i2c, spi, uart, timers, irq's, isp ect, ect
[18:34] <LaurenceB> they have loads of hardware
[18:34] <LaurenceB> you can get ones with mp3 and jpeg support as well
[18:35] <DarkFlib> cool...
[18:36] <DarkFlib> ooo... atmel do gps devices...
[18:37] <LaurenceB> http://users.ox.ac.uk/~shug2080/bike.wmv
[18:37] <LaurenceB> theres a video
[18:38] <DarkFlib> need a slower shutter on your camera
[18:39] <DarkFlib> hmm... the atmel single chip gps requires usb output by the look of it
[18:40] <LaurenceB> can you do usb with micros?
[18:40] <DarkFlib> you can, but its not easy...
[18:40] <DarkFlib> master mode is the problem
[18:40] <DarkFlib> slave mode is fairly easy, since pics and atmel chips have it built in on some devices
[18:41] <LaurenceB> does it have to run at really high speed?
[18:41] <DarkFlib> usb 1 is 11mbit
[18:41] <DarkFlib> and usb2 is backward compat...
[18:41] <DarkFlib> so not especially
[18:47] <DarkFlib> nice thing about integrating gps on board would be the gps time pulse availibility...
[18:47] <DarkFlib> you have a 1Hz pulse availible...
[18:47] <LaurenceB> yes that would be good
[18:47] <LaurenceB> but my gps has pulse out
[18:48] <DarkFlib> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc4928.pdf
[18:48] <LaurenceB> I was thinking of using this as an interrupt to get the nmea string
[18:48] <DarkFlib> supports serial and usb by the look ofit
[18:48] <LaurenceB> rather than buffered uart
[18:49] <DarkFlib> the nmea strings are grabbed from your serial ports... you just get them 1 char at a time as the serial interupts signal...
[18:49] <DarkFlib> then when you recieve a line end you parse the sentence
[18:49] <LaurenceB> yes it workes very well now
[18:49] <DarkFlib> main problem is that some sentences can be 80chars+ long
[18:50] <LaurenceB> yes it uses up a fair bit of ram
[18:51] <LaurenceB> I'm using the timer1 compare registers to get the servo pulses
[18:53] <LaurenceB> you can set them to give an irq when timer1 reaches their value
[19:01] <LaurenceB> okay I'm off cya all
[19:06] <DarkFlib> k..later
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[00:00] --- Sun Jan 14 2007