highaltitude.log.20070112

[00:00] jcoxon (n=jcoxon@jac208.caths.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[00:13] cablito2 (i=vircuser@c951ba9a.virtua.com.br) joined #highaltitude.
[00:13] <cablito2> hey
[00:13] <icez> hey
[00:13] <cablito2> I watched a documentary last night
[00:13] <cablito2> about that guy that went to space
[00:13] <icez> which one?:P
[00:13] <cablito2> private trip 20 million deal (a bargain actually)
[00:14] <cablito2> its the first time i saw a long footage of the ISS inside
[00:14] <cablito2> you know it looks like a submarine
[00:14] <icez> yeah
[00:14] <cablito2> ontop of a road truck
[00:14] <icez> space is almost like deep sea
[00:14] <icez> :)
[00:14] <cablito2> i saw some very strange effects
[00:15] <cablito2> where objects that had no initial inercia, moved
[00:15] <cablito2> kinda makes me wonder how stable is orbit
[00:15] <cablito2> and if thats a natural phenomena in orbit
[00:15] <icez> mmm
[00:15] <icez> they shouldn't move unless something is acting on them..
[00:15] <icez> of course there's the air flow and all
[00:15] <icez> (inside the ISS)
[00:16] <cablito2> almost as if there was a small difference on the fallspeed / vertical speed
[00:16] <cablito2> no they were "high mass" objects to be displaced by airflow... i want to look into this
[00:16] <cablito2> because i thought the orbit was a perfect balance
[00:17] <icez> well the ISS slowly goes back toward earth also
[00:17] <cablito2> but the main point is - billions of dollars and thats all we managed to do?
[00:17] <icez> they have to adjust it sometimes
[00:17] <cablito2> but the adjustments are large burns, it almost seemed like small rotational adjustments
[00:17] <icez> most people complain that by the time they'll finish it it'll be outdated :p
[00:17] <cablito2> which could explain it too
[00:18] <cablito2> I´ve read about software bugs and how astronauts spend their long days fixing stuff
[00:18] <cablito2> and hardly had time to INSTALL all the rest
[00:18] <icez> yeah, lots of problems up there
[00:19] <cablito2> I think it should have been done using the russian launchers
[00:19] <cablito2> those bad ass rockets that have an enormous lift
[00:19] <cablito2> rather than the space shuttle
[00:19] <icez> NASA doesn't like using other people's stuff
[00:19] <icez> :/
[00:20] <cablito2> which is so old I would not fly on it even when its straped on the boeing
[00:20] <cablito2> I'd say "hell no, i will drive back to houston"
[00:20] <cablito2> it showed the russian lander
[00:21] <cablito2> its the most beautiful piece of spacecraft
[00:21] <cablito2> no pretty painting
[00:21] <cablito2> no "flag" sticker
[00:21] <cablito2> comes down burning like a comet
[00:21] <cablito2> makes a 2 feet crater where it lands
[00:21] <cablito2> astronauts leave unharmed
[00:22] <cablito2> been done so many times its almost easy to say its "safe"
[00:22] <icez> :/
[00:22] <cablito2> the whole ship costs less than the recovery and re-build process of the booster engines from the shuttle
[00:23] <icez> NASA stuff is always expensive
[00:24] <cablito2> i am also fond of some of NASA stuff
[00:24] <cablito2> its just its done the american way - no offence intended
[00:24] <DarkFlib> Russian and Chinese Stuff is normally more mechanical than computerised... less to go wrong on them
[00:24] <cablito2> the russian way is "its gonna come down like a meteor, we might as well not paint it"
[00:24] <DarkFlib> when they say it goes like clockwork its not that far from the truth
[00:25] <DarkFlib> anyway... I'm heading bed
[00:25] <DarkFlib> night night
[00:25] <cablito2> cya
[00:25] <icez> cya DarkFlib
[00:25] <cablito2> the funny thing was the russian Buran
[00:25] <cablito2> how it turned out to be abandoned
[00:25] <DarkFlib> the .ru shuttle?
[00:25] <cablito2> yeah
[00:26] <cablito2> i like the story (which is true) of the janitor
[00:26] <cablito2> the janitor of the building where it was stored
[00:26] <cablito2> saying it was "raining" ontop of the shuttle
[00:26] <cablito2> cause the hangar was not mantained
[00:26] <icez> :/
[00:27] <cablito2> it was then sold to australian to a civilian
[00:27] <cablito2> then abandoned and now its on display somewhere...
[00:27] <cablito2> I can imagine the technology it hosted
[00:27] <cablito2> like bolted hatches and valves that required a wrench to close
[00:28] <cablito2> which was firmly atached by a string near the valve
[00:28] <cablito2> so it would not "float away"
[00:28] <cablito2> the old Pen vs. Pencil dilema.
[00:29] <icez> lol
[00:30] <cablito2> icez have you done any balloon project -excuse if i asked before
[00:30] <cablito2> my cache buffer is really short
[00:31] <icez> no:(
[00:31] <icez> did you?
[00:32] <cablito2> no I am still planing... the solar ballon thing kinda shaked my plans actually
[00:33] <cablito2> I had never heard of it
[00:33] <icez> :)
[00:33] <cablito2> and i think I am going to build one
[00:33] <icez> quite interesting
[00:33] <cablito2> since i had build paper ones of like 10m
[00:33] <cablito2> big mofos balloons
[00:33] <icez> i want to get more into electronics before doing it though
[00:33] <cablito2> are u programmer?
[00:33] <icez> maybe even create the payload before
[00:33] <cablito2> I ordered a pic programming kit bout 2 days ago
[00:33] <icez> sort of yeah
[00:34] <icez> i'm more into AVRs
[00:34] <cablito2> risc vs cisc
[00:34] Action: DarkFlib decides to stick around for an hour
[00:35] <cablito2> actually i bought the pic programmer
[00:35] <cablito2> because for the first project i want to do an usb interface and the pic has a very easy way to do it and are dirty cheap
[00:35] <DarkFlib> i want to nail my requirements before i choose a device
[00:36] <cablito2> I was talking here the other day
[00:36] <cablito2> my balloon project has a different goal
[00:36] <cablito2> no payload recovery
[00:36] <cablito2> I will only launch if I can have descent IP comm system
[00:36] <cablito2> so as to broadcast the data (pictures from megapixel camera)
[00:37] <cablito2> and the high altitude goal (using a ballon cluster with what I would call 2 stages)
[00:37] <cablito2> 1º stage are ballons with lots of helium to generate the lift on the first 10.000 meters
[00:38] <cablito2> the 2º stage ones would be filled with very little (calculated of course) helium
[00:38] <cablito2> so their full "lift/volume" would take on from there
[00:38] <DarkFlib> to be honest I don't think that would be required... since if you have enough lift at 18km you will have more than enough at ground level...
[00:38] <cablito2> I want to go way higher.... the 1 set could burst at 18km
[00:39] <DarkFlib> its the difference in moecular weight of the gas that is the real important thing
[00:39] <cablito2> and the 2 set would there be inflated to the ideal ratio to keep lift
[00:40] <DarkFlib> have you calculated what you propose yet?
[00:40] <cablito2> If I am to launch the ballon it has to be a little more than for the kicks of doing it, i want to be able to get good usable data
[00:40] <cablito2> no not yet, thats a concept I´ve been brainstorming
[00:40] <cablito2> without having done the volume/lift/weight calculations
[00:40] <DarkFlib> I think you'll be suprised with some of your data...
[00:41] <cablito2> probably which brings it back to where I am, before I even worry about lifting the payload, I want to be sure I will have communications
[00:41] <cablito2> because i dont want to recover the payload (or may even be unable to)
[00:41] <DarkFlib> I'm fairly sure I can get comms to the balloon... its just balloon to me that is the problem
[00:42] <jcoxon> night all
[00:42] <cablito2> night
[00:42] <DarkFlib> night jcoxon
[00:42] <cablito2> What u plan for comms dark?
[00:42] <DarkFlib> sat -> balloon...
[00:42] <cablito2> ooo
[00:42] <cablito2> I had some sat comm on my old house
[00:43] <DarkFlib> I know I can picky back on some sats... even without really special equipment
[00:43] <DarkFlib> piggy*
[00:43] <cablito2> we used some abandoned satelites with still functional frequencies
[00:43] <DarkFlib> nah... these would be existing operating sats...
[00:43] <cablito2> some radio geek set it up for u
[00:43] <cablito2> us*
[00:44] <cablito2> whats the cost for their use?
[00:44] <DarkFlib> if you know what you are doing moon bounce could work both ways... but tracking the moon with little weight is a pain
[00:44] <DarkFlib> less than £20/month
[00:44] <DarkFlib> :P
[00:44] <cablito2> ahhh come on thats dirty cheap
[00:44] <DarkFlib> exactly
[00:44] jcoxon (n=jcoxon@jac208.caths.cam.ac.uk) left irc: "Leaving"
[00:44] <DarkFlib> 1 way sat internet...
[00:44] <cablito2> though it feels nice to used hacked satelites :)
[00:45] <cablito2> use*
[00:45] <DarkFlib> basicly bounce a tcp connection from a server on the net... and sniff it
[00:45] <cablito2> I only planned one way
[00:45] <DarkFlib> you have all the info you need...
[00:45] <DarkFlib> since you control both ends
[00:45] <cablito2> i was going to broadcast with UDP
[00:46] <cablito2> actually (i am a programmer) i kinda imagined I was going to have a lot of loss so I figured I'd use a redundant sending data pattern
[00:46] <cablito2> tagget packets that could be re-assembled
[00:46] <cablito2> regardless of the order they came in
[00:47] <cablito2> ALL RIGHT, now just strap a notebook to a ballon and set it of - lol
[00:48] <cablito2> 29 dollars per month sat internet;
[00:48] <DarkFlib> there is also the option of VLF radio
[00:48] <DarkFlib> get maybe 300bps or less from that tho...
[00:48] <cablito2> are those satelines geo-stacionary ?
[00:48] <DarkFlib> but it can go around the earth
[00:48] <DarkFlib> yes
[00:48] <cablito2> aha.... sweet so for a ballon launch with a few hundred km drift
[00:48] <cablito2> you are always in range
[00:49] <DarkFlib> if you do it right
[00:49] <cablito2> what about antena
[00:49] <cablito2> dish like antenas?
[00:49] <cablito2> with the ballons obstructing it?
[00:49] <cablito2> since it would be facing upwards
[00:49] <DarkFlib> satellite don't actually need dishes... (although dishes are better)
[00:49] <DarkFlib> any high gain ant can be used...
[00:49] <DarkFlib> if you are careful
[00:50] <icez> make the balloon a dish :]
[00:50] <DarkFlib> tin foil dish on the top of the balloon? :P
[00:50] <cablito2> in the end i wish i had people around me that shared the same interest
[00:50] <DarkFlib> I'm just toying with ideas atm...
[00:50] <icez> I actually got a lot more receptions from a walkie talkie with a foil dish on the antenna
[00:50] <icez> :p
[00:50] <cablito2> because I could certainly do a good job on the payload and software, the "craft" itself
[00:51] <cablito2> but the radio thing is not my field
[00:51] <DarkFlib> once you are up high tho... sats should be fairly easy to hit... less antenuation from the atmosphere
[00:51] <icez> or sticking the antenna after a stop sign:\
[00:51] <cablito2> if they are geostationary
[00:51] <cablito2> and using non-dish antenas
[00:52] <cablito2> you are very likelly to have a good coverage
[00:52] <DarkFlib> there is also 2 way sat... but its more expensive
[00:53] <DarkFlib> aramiska being the popular one
[00:53] <cablito2> do you know the climb speed?
[00:53] <DarkFlib> of the balloon?
[00:53] <cablito2> once you are past the dense-air
[00:53] <cablito2> yeah
[00:53] <DarkFlib> depends on the density of the air and temp difference
[00:53] <cablito2> not enough to cause any RF phenomenas ?
[00:54] <DarkFlib> only real thing it could cause is dopplar effect
[00:54] <DarkFlib> slight shift in the freqs
[00:55] <DarkFlib> radio isn't really my field tho...
[00:55] <DarkFlib> but I worked with sats 2 years ago...
[00:55] <cablito2> what real benefit you seek or would seek in sending a balloon
[00:55] <cablito2> ?
[00:55] <DarkFlib> I want to take my own pictures...
[00:55] <DarkFlib> :P
[00:56] <cablito2> Me too but I want high res pictures
[00:56] <DarkFlib> but I was toying with the idea of using it as a kinda satellite...
[00:56] <cablito2> self regulating altitude?
[00:56] <DarkFlib> bouncing data off it if I find a tech that is usable legally
[00:56] <DarkFlib> yes
[00:56] <cablito2> night - cold - day hot
[00:56] <cablito2> thats the biggest issue
[00:57] <DarkFlib> make it bigger and the volume becomes a battery of warm air...
[00:57] <cablito2> and helium loss (crossing the balloon surface)
[00:57] <DarkFlib> not using helium, so no problem there
[00:57] <cablito2> you thinking air...
[00:57] <cablito2> max altitude for air flight?
[00:57] <DarkFlib> solar hot air...
[00:57] <DarkFlib> 30km is doable
[00:57] <cablito2> solar ballons made me lose my sleep last night
[00:58] <DarkFlib> if done right
[00:58] <cablito2> I just stayed up so late in bed thinking about it i woke up late for work today
[00:58] <cablito2> lol
[00:58] <DarkFlib> probably look at 18km... since there is a low wind zone there
[00:58] <DarkFlib> from 12km to 25km depending on what you read
[00:58] <cablito2> brazil is privileged there i think I´ve been trying to find the winds on nooaa
[00:59] <cablito2> having your own permanent "thing" up that high does make one have a permanent smile would it not?
[00:59] <DarkFlib> whats the regs like in brazil for ham radio transmittion in the air?
[00:59] <DarkFlib> US seems to allow it... UK doesn't
[01:00] <DarkFlib> yup
[01:00] <DarkFlib> just clone iridium with high altitude balloons
[01:00] <DarkFlib> 24 or so around the earth...
[01:01] <cablito2> regulations exist here
[01:01] <cablito2> but in a place were congressman aprove thenselves a 90% raise
[01:01] <cablito2> and no-one gets killed
[01:01] <cablito2> ham radio is the least of ones concern
[01:02] <DarkFlib> I was actually considering using hacked wifi cards
[01:02] <DarkFlib> since there are some that have been used over 200km now
[01:03] <cablito2> yeah we were discussing this here the other day
[01:03] <cablito2> the problem is
[01:03] <cablito2> there is only one way to find out
[01:03] <cablito2> and if you findyour package up there
[01:03] <cablito2> and no comm
[01:03] <DarkFlib> get two mountains and do it...
[01:03] <cablito2> you are likelly to ge tthat smile wiped of ur face for a long time
[01:04] <DarkFlib> as long as the fresnel zones are equivilent it should be fine
[01:04] <cablito2> thats what i was going to say, fresnel zones
[01:04] <cablito2> Pc-104 with linux, light package or an old notebook striped (cheap)
[01:05] <cablito2> I just threw 2 notebooks on the trash the other day
[01:05] <icez> kc0wsys did that with a laptop
[01:05] <cablito2> pentium 3 700 notebooks
[01:05] <icez> !!!!
[01:05] <DarkFlib> there is also ionosphere bounce... at 150miles up
[01:05] <icez> you trashed computers?!
[01:05] <cablito2> yeah, I drilled the lcd screens
[01:05] <cablito2> I allllways wanted to do that
[01:05] <icez> computers aren't biodegradable and they are recyclable
[01:05] <icez> :P
[01:05] <icez> :/
[01:05] <cablito2> they had like 64mb of ram
[01:05] <cablito2> non-expandable
[01:05] <DarkFlib> so?
[01:06] <DarkFlib> they are low power... they can be hacked for mobile apps
[01:06] <cablito2> I kinda regreted it;
[01:06] <cablito2> but lets just never bring this up again, I´ve overcome that felling of guilt
[01:07] <cablito2> but you can buy cheap used notebooks, specially the ones with "problematic" displays
[01:07] <cablito2> or even "full display" failure
[01:07] <DarkFlib> http://www.smallhydropower.com/formula.htm <-- me starts to calculate how far a balloon at 18km can see...
[01:07] <cablito2> which still work fine when connected to an external display
[01:08] <cablito2> they are "worthless" as notebooks, but for this kind of applications they are great
[01:08] <cablito2> I would dump the Harddrive too
[01:08] <cablito2> and use an USB stick
[01:08] <DarkFlib> compact flash + adpator...
[01:08] <DarkFlib> drop in replacement for ide hd
[01:08] <DarkFlib> use 40mA
[01:09] <cablito2> whichever was cheaper (probably compact flash +adapter) as some types are becoming obsolete
[01:10] Action: cablito2 fires up google earth and navigates to 18km to see what kind of view there is :)
[01:10] <icez> :|
[01:11] <icez> cablito2, usb drives are very cheap, I got mine for 19$ with a 10$ instant rebate and a 9$ mail-in rebate
[01:11] <icez> :)
[01:11] <cablito2> I´ve ran several linux distros from usb
[01:11] <cablito2> dsl, puppy,
[01:12] <cablito2> also u get reliability of solid state :)
[01:12] <icez> yeah
[01:12] <DarkFlib> if you want 1000km range from the balloon then you are looking at 77km high...
[01:12] <icez> I forgot my USB drive at my job for 3-4 months and it was still working :]
[01:12] <icez> lol
[01:12] <DarkFlib> gonna try it again at 600km...
[01:12] <DarkFlib> :P
[01:12] <icez> plugged in and the PC on
[01:12] <cablito2> you sure about that number?
[01:13] <cablito2> I´ve mad a calc sometime ago and it appeared to be higher
[01:13] <DarkFlib> 28km high would give you 600km visibility in all directions...
[01:13] <DarkFlib> :)
[01:13] <cablito2> 500 km from 20km height
[01:14] <cablito2> thats a nice coverage
[01:14] <DarkFlib> yup
[01:14] <DarkFlib> thats 500km in each direction... so actually 100km...
[01:14] <icez> what will you guys be using for communications?
[01:14] <DarkFlib> icez, not sure yet
[01:14] <cablito2> "will" made me feel happy already
[01:15] <cablito2> Options: hacked wifi
[01:15] <cablito2> radio modems
[01:15] <cablito2> satelite (one way or two way)
[01:15] <DarkFlib> low power radio modems have my vote atm...
[01:15] <icez> i could get airplane radios but they're a little weighty
[01:15] <DarkFlib> with potentially a steerable high gain ant for wifi...
[01:15] <cablito2> airplane radios suck in my opnion
[01:16] <cablito2> i see 20 million planes talking on radio
[01:16] <cablito2> its worst than my daughter's walki-talkie
[01:16] <icez> i don't think wifi can go very far
[01:16] <DarkFlib> so you have the radio modem for automagic position reporting... at any angle... and both ends need to steer to get a high bw link (1Mbit)
[01:17] <DarkFlib> even if its only intermittent I'm sure some data can be offloaded
[01:18] <cablito2> the package schedulling idea i think its valid
[01:18] <icez> we need to get a HobbySat built and launched into space
[01:18] <icez> which hobbyist could use for that stuff
[01:18] <icez> :)
[01:18] <cablito2> send small wraped packages - repeatedly and in any order
[01:18] <cablito2> and then do a software build of those packages
[01:19] <cablito2> if there is 2 way comm
[01:19] <cablito2> periodically send a packet with "send me packets 1,4,9 cause i dont have them"
[01:19] <cablito2> kinda mimic tcp/ip on top of tcp/ip using tcip/ip itself as a carrier only
[01:19] <DarkFlib> tornado codes are what you want there...
[01:19] <DarkFlib> basicly a digital fountain...
[01:20] <DarkFlib> tornado codes are slightly less efficient than reed soloman codes... but require far less processing power
[01:21] <cablito2> yeah but then you are diving deep into complex code
[01:21] <DarkFlib> not really... I have working code for that
[01:21] <cablito2> i program for like 12 years and nowdays i am the small code simple code adept
[01:21] <cablito2> you know whats the best analogy i got
[01:22] <DarkFlib> I have tested code for many things...
[01:22] <DarkFlib> :P
[01:22] <cablito2> engineers when they graduate they start building small houses
[01:22] <cablito2> then increase complexity
[01:22] <cablito2> programmers do the oposite, they graduate and build behemoth complex code
[01:22] <cablito2> to later learn to go the simples path possible
[01:23] <cablito2> but i will look into the digital fountain concepts
[01:24] <cablito2> when i refactor code at the software house i work at
[01:24] <cablito2> i see that first hands
[01:24] <DarkFlib> heh! from my location in the UK, I could cover almost the whole of the uk and ireland
[01:25] <DarkFlib> if I lanuched straight up
[01:25] <cablito2> but you would get major drift
[01:25] <cablito2> jet streams up there
[01:25] <DarkFlib> yes, that I am aware of...
[01:25] <DarkFlib> there is an layer of air with very little movement...
[01:25] <DarkFlib> somewhere between 12 and 25km
[01:26] <cablito2> I am still wondering if the altitude control can be done
[01:26] <cablito2> with medium-simple tech
[01:26] <DarkFlib> it can...
[01:26] <cablito2> or u intent to use natural balance?
[01:26] <DarkFlib> I suggested a way earlier tonight
[01:26] <cablito2> I wasnt one, no backlog
[01:27] <DarkFlib> change the volume of the balloon... or change the temperature of the balloon
[01:27] <DarkFlib> both will change your bouyancy
[01:27] <cablito2> changing the volume being simpler i supose
[01:27] <DarkFlib> tie a string to the top and the payload and pull it in...
[01:27] <DarkFlib> :P
[01:27] <cablito2> because temperature changing involves energy usage/transfer (peltier?)
[01:28] <DarkFlib> you have a way to move heat... vent it out the balloon
[01:28] <DarkFlib> or ducted fanout the bottom/mix it with colder air inside the envelope
[01:28] <cablito2> yeah but that heat will be needed at night
[01:29] <DarkFlib> depends on the size of the balloon to how much you will need to store...
[01:29] <DarkFlib> you wont lose so much on a bigger balloon since there is less surface to radiate from...
[01:29] <DarkFlib> in proposion to its volume
[01:29] <cablito2> duct fan to move it sideways :)
[01:29] <cablito2> solar powered
[01:30] <cablito2> 15.000 rpm ducted fan on thin air;
[01:30] <cablito2> does that sound(scientifically) as insane as it sounds?
[01:30] <DarkFlib> if the balloon is big enough and you can support the weight of solar panels, I see no reason why a propeller couldn't be used to move it in low relative wind speeds
[01:31] <DarkFlib> just need a bigger fan
[01:31] <cablito2> http://mtp.jpl.nasa.gov/notes/altitude/DensityAltitude.html
[01:31] <DarkFlib> and the slower the better really... more efficient
[01:31] <cablito2> those kind of math scare me off at 23:00h
[01:32] <cablito2> actually, now that i look into it, scares me anytime
[01:32] <DarkFlib> they aren't particularly complex.. they just would take a while for me to go through
[01:32] <DarkFlib> 1:30 here
[01:33] <cablito2> but in a place with no jetstreams (brazil)
[01:33] <DarkFlib> anyway... I think I'm heading bed...
[01:33] <DarkFlib> no jet stream?
[01:33] <cablito2> and counting on lower winds, slow moving might just compensate long term drift
[01:35] <DarkFlib> night night... will you be on tomorrow night?
[01:35] <cablito2> yep
[01:35] <cablito2> i will try to come here more often
[01:35] <cablito2> will catch u then
[01:35] <cablito2> savepoint: southern hemisphere jetstreams
[01:36] <DarkFlib> k
[01:36] <cablito2> night
[01:36] <cablito2> night all
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[16:15] <Max0> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpRrVH8Kskg
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[18:14] <DarkFlib> Max0, that would interest me by being not quite enough to offset my weight... so I could essentially jump around like I was on the moon
[18:15] <Max0> http://moon.google.com/
[18:15] <DarkFlib> lol
[18:18] <DarkFlib> http://gw.technomonk.com/images/map2.png <-- I hacked together some conversion apps for quite a few map formats a few years back... never got around to releasing the source tho
[18:18] <DarkFlib> http://gw.technomonk.com/images/map3.png <-- even did different projections
[18:19] <DarkFlib> have to do something about that soon...
[18:20] <Max0> that looks like the maps my scanner used to decode with weather pics
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[18:25] <DarkFlib> I might write a php page later to do the hard calcs for solar balloons...
[18:25] <DarkFlib> so you can see what sizing is required to lift x kg at x altitudes...
[18:26] <Max0> wouldnt the temp and sun index come into it as well?
[18:26] <DarkFlib> yes... thats why they aren't trivial
[18:27] <Max0> ic
[18:29] <DarkFlib> basicly with altitude you have lower air density, which requires a bigger balloon... you have lower temperature... which requires a slightly bigger balloon + extra shielding for the payload... but you have better sun since its not being absorbed by the atmosphere... which requires a smaller balloon...
[18:29] <DarkFlib> but that last factor isn't a big one
[18:32] <Max0> ..so u need a big balloon then ;)
[18:32] <DarkFlib> yeah...
[18:34] <DarkFlib> depends how high you want to go to whether it will really bother you... since you will hit a height where your lift will balance your payload... at least until the sun hides behind the earth
[18:50] <Max0> how does it come down?
[18:50] <Max0> as weather balloons pop
[18:51] <DarkFlib> still working on that...
[18:53] <DarkFlib> most sites I read seem to imply that as soon as the balloon drifts toward the pole they start to come down
[18:55] <DarkFlib> but I don't know why yet
[18:56] <jcoxon> sounds a bit scary
[18:57] <DarkFlib> a little I suppose... but depends on the payload...
[18:57] <jcoxon> of course
[18:58] <jcoxon> hmmm i guess i better finish writing this code for the pic
[18:59] <jcoxon> hey phatmonkey - haven't seen you here for ages!
[18:59] <phatmonkey> yeah
[19:00] <phatmonkey> real life things took over during the xmas hols
[19:00] <phatmonkey> and i had the flu for the past week
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[19:00] <jcoxon> oh i hope you're feeling better
[19:00] <DarkFlib> flu always sucks
[19:03] <phatmonkey> clearing up today thankfully
[19:03] <phatmonkey> how's everything progressing anyway?
[19:03] <phatmonkey> i heard you scfrapped the launch last week
[19:04] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:04] <jcoxon> nothing was working as it should
[19:04] <jcoxon> i'm actually working on just a independent camera module for the next launch
[19:04] <phatmonkey> rushed at the last minute?
[19:05] <jcoxon> ummmm not really
[19:05] <jcoxon> it just stopped working
[19:05] <jcoxon> i think there was a flaw in my system
[19:05] <jcoxon> so not enough testing
[19:07] <phatmonkey> damn
[19:07] <jcoxon> oh well - glad we didn't risk it
[19:08] <phatmonkey> yeah
[19:09] <jcoxon> you done any more?
[19:09] <jcoxon> its about time you launched something :-p
[19:09] <phatmonkey> yeah!
[19:09] <phatmonkey> damn lack of time
[19:16] <icez> phatmonkey launched something?:D
[19:21] <Max0> what payload do you think this can take...
[19:21] <Max0> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Walking-pet-helium-foil-novelty-balloon-cute-pug_W0QQitemZ290070496830QQihZ019QQcategoryZ26384QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[19:22] <icez> uh
[19:22] <Max0> lol
[19:22] <icez> there's nothing to really compare the size to
[19:24] Action: jcoxon might go mad
[19:25] <Max0> how come jc
[19:26] <Max0> saw a few videos of your lauches on youtube today
[19:26] <jcoxon> hehe
[19:27] <jcoxon> right i'm trying to program this PIC in c
[19:27] <jcoxon> and i want to declare a variable
[19:27] <jcoxon> so i do:
[19:27] <jcoxon> int count;
[19:27] <icez> ?!
[19:27] <jcoxon> and it tells me hte syntax is wrong
[19:27] <icez> the peg1 video was flagged for inappropriateness?!
[19:27] <icez> come on..
[19:27] <jcoxon> yeah i don't now why
[19:27] <jcoxon> but its pretty damn hard to unflag
[19:30] <Max0> strange
[19:30] <Max0> i know know c but that looks right
[19:31] <icez> wow the rope between the parachute and the payload is long
[19:36] <jcoxon> hmmm seems like the declaration has to be outside of the main part of the code
[19:52] <Max0> u dont need a main like java?
[20:01] <DarkFlib> yes, kinda...
[20:02] <DarkFlib> c isn't oo like java, but you still have a main block as an entry to your code
[20:02] <Max0> oo sucks
[20:03] <DarkFlib> quoting on a myspace clone atm... doubt I'll be getting the contract... but it wouldn't be difficult to build... just time consuming
[20:03] <DarkFlib> they want it completely finished by april 1st
[20:04] <DarkFlib> but they only want to pay for a single programmer
[20:04] <Max0> wouldnt too long
[20:04] <Max0> what languages
[20:04] <Max0> id be intrested in helping out for some £££
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[20:14] <DarkFlib> fscking mirc
[20:14] <DarkFlib> eats 50% of my cpu then crashes
[20:15] <Max0> :( mirc
[20:16] <Max0> how come ya not on linux?
[20:17] <DarkFlib> since the nvidia driver on linux barfs on my quad-up display
[20:17] <DarkFlib> :(
[20:17] <icez> new US passports will contain RFID tags, thus with a simple machine, someone could just sit around and capture everyone's identity
[20:17] <icez> :/
[20:17] <Max0> hehe yup
[20:18] <DarkFlib> icez, rfid reader on balloons over borders?
[20:18] <icez> people passports
[20:18] <icez> :P
[20:18] <icez> just like the trouble they had with cellphones and bluetooth and people getting into other's cellphones and such
[20:18] <icez> :/
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[20:38] <mc-> hi jcoxon, have you solved your int count problem?
[20:38] <jcoxon> yup
[20:39] <mc-> what was it?
[20:39] <jcoxon> it had to go outside my main clause
[20:39] <jcoxon> don't understand why
[20:39] <jcoxon> but not going to persue it
[20:40] <mc-> I think that's because all vars are static on a PIC
[20:40] <jcoxon> oh right
[20:40] <jcoxon> well i've now got a push button working
[20:40] <jcoxon> so i'm playing with that to get it so that you can input the number of 10s of seconds between triggering the shutter
[20:41] <mc-> how bout counting the number of keypresses?
[20:41] <jcoxon> thats exactly what i'm doing
[20:42] <jcoxon> though i'm trying to work out a way of distinguishing between lots of keypresses and single long press
[20:44] <mc-> I've got a delay routine I can send you.
[20:44] <mc-> what speed is the oscillator?
[20:44] <jcoxon> ummmmm
[20:45] <jcoxon> OSCCON=0x62l;
[20:45] <jcoxon> OSCCON=0x62;
[20:45] <DarkFlib> you need to be able to detect transitions to be able to differentiate
[20:46] <mc-> i think they're usually 4MHz
[20:46] <jcoxon> yup thats it
[20:52] <icez> "The connection to www.cia.gov was interrupted while the page was loading."
[20:52] <icez> :/
[21:14] <jcoxon> hey all, for a pic how do i make the loop sleep for 10seconds
[21:14] <jcoxon> ?
[21:14] <jcoxon> i can do short delays with Delay10KTCYx(x);
[21:14] <jcoxon> but i want to do 10 seconds now
[21:15] <icez> how short is short?
[21:16] <jcoxon> 1 second or so
[21:17] <icez> I guess if you repeat it 10 times..
[21:17] <icez> if it was C you could use sleep()
[21:17] <icez> :/
[21:18] <mc-> you need 2 or 3 nested for() loops
[21:18] <mc-> that's what I do
[21:19] <jcoxon> basically i've got it now so that it takes the input for the number of 10s of seconds between triggering
[21:19] <jcoxon> and now i want a loop that will use this int and do the delay
[21:19] <DarkFlib> doesn't the pic have a shutdown function with a wakeup in x millisecs or something?
[21:20] <DarkFlib> might not maintain state tho... long time since I've done pic stuff
[21:21] <mc-> something like a while (ctr--) {delay1s } should do it
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[21:23] <jcoxon> mc-, i'm not sure i understand
[21:23] <mc-> ctr counts down to 0 every second, then it finishes while loop
[21:25] <jcoxon> oh right
[21:25] <jcoxon> hmm doesn't compile - do i need a header?
[21:27] <mc-> sorry, you need to write code for delay1s
[21:27] <LaurenceB> Launch still on track for next weekend?
[21:27] <jcoxon> LaurenceB, guess so
[21:27] <jcoxon> the weather is better then this weekend
[21:27] <LaurenceB> having problems?
[21:27] <jcoxon> and i should have this finished by weds
[21:27] <jcoxon> henry and i are going to have our side of things done by weds
[21:28] <LaurenceB> okay cool, wats henry building?
[21:28] <jcoxon> a tracker
[21:28] <jcoxon> right i'll bbl
[21:28] <jcoxon> time for a break
[21:30] <LaurenceB> tell me about it :-)
[21:32] <LaurenceB> I've been working on DIY non stop since 9am
[21:33] <LaurenceB> theres something about 1950s concrete that makes it indestructable
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[22:26] <LaurenceB> I'm off cya all
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[22:41] <cablito2> hey there
[22:42] <cablito2> http://www.alistairdickie.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=14&Itemid=27
[22:42] <cablito2> got a nice link there
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[23:33] <jcoxon> cablito2, thats a really interesting site
[23:34] <icez> yup
[23:34] <jcoxon> will add it to the ukhas links
[23:37] <icez> solar balloons are seriously cool stuff.
[23:37] <icez> would be a nice way to get kids interested in high-altitude balloons too, get them to build a little one and let it go :]
[23:38] <cablito2> hey
[23:38] <cablito2> I thought you were all sleeping
[23:39] <icez> still pretty early in the afternoon here :]
[23:39] <cablito2> hehe... what u guys think about the JPaerospace
[23:39] <cablito2> ?
[23:39] <jcoxon> are they still going?
[23:39] <cablito2> no updates
[23:39] <jcoxon> they did some really cool things but i think they've lost a bit of drive
[23:39] <cablito2> I seems
[23:40] <jcoxon> also their aims were perhaps a little extreme
[23:40] <cablito2> you know something I think about their main goals
[23:40] <cablito2> the "floating" space station
[23:40] <cablito2> it brings no benefits
[23:40] <cablito2> you have all the disadvantages of being in space (heat/cold/vaccum) without any benefits (lack of gravity)
[23:41] <jcoxon> nah - you can launch rockets from there
[23:41] <cablito2> and you can "fall overboard"
[23:41] <jcoxon> need a lot less power to reach space
[23:41] <cablito2> imagine how much panic you would suffer
[23:41] <cablito2> falling from 80km
[23:42] <cablito2> gives you a long time to review your non-achieved goals
[23:42] <cablito2> by 30km you start "lets get this over with all right?"
[23:43] <cablito2> where did they get money from, thats the question.... they did some big stuff.
[23:43] <cablito2> lots of helium on that huge concepts they actually built
[23:43] <jcoxon> they had contracts with the US DOD
[23:43] <jcoxon> i think
[23:43] <cablito2> they did intend to go a long way
[23:44] <cablito2> Its like the "X-Prize"
[23:44] <cablito2> all a good ride, lots of lessons learned, but hey, just proves its damm hard to get to space
[23:44] <cablito2> and the spaceship one flight is no great step towards civilian space exploration
[23:45] <cablito2> beucase going up 100km and falling down gracefully is one thing
[23:45] <cablito2> a whole different story is going 300km up and accelerating to 30km/h
[23:55] <jcoxon> of course
[23:55] <jcoxon> but its a start
[00:00] --- Sat Jan 13 2007