highaltitude.log.20070111

[00:13] <LaurenceB> http://www.aquatica.co.nz/links/Ball-Valve.gif
[00:13] <LaurenceB> one of these + servo
[00:18] <LaurenceB> okay night all
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[09:46] <jcoxon> hehe - i think postponing the lauch till next week was a good move :-D
[09:46] Action: jcoxon is getting battered by the winds
[10:03] <LaurenceB> If anyones after lithium batteries you can buy them in homebase
[10:09] <LaurenceB> right off to wickes cya
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[10:14] Action: DarkFlib is getting REALLY battered here... sat dish has come out of alignment due to wind
[10:19] <jcoxon> a good day to launch me thinks
[10:20] <jcoxon> fill a balloon with just enough to have a slow ascent
[10:20] <jcoxon> get it to cross the north sea
[10:29] <DarkFlib> maybe...
[10:29] <DarkFlib> not really looked at wind direction
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[17:16] Action: DarkFlib looks up from his coding
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[17:23] <icez> wb jcoxon
[17:23] <jcoxon> hey icez
[17:31] <mythtv> hows the pic jc?
[17:34] <jcoxon> well i haven't done anything more yet :-)
[17:34] <jcoxon> but i've mapped out the code in my head i think
[17:34] <jcoxon> so its a matter of settling down and writing it
[17:34] <jcoxon> its exceedingly simple
[17:36] <mythtv> cool
[17:36] <mythtv> whats the pic for?
[17:36] Nick change: mythtv -> Max0
[17:37] <jcoxon> basically at the launch pad everything for hte camera module should be assembled
[17:37] <jcoxon> there is a little control panel on the outside
[17:37] <jcoxon> flick a switch to turn everything on
[17:37] <jcoxon> and then with a push button you set the number of seconds between pictures
[17:38] <jcoxon> and then you let go :-p
[17:38] <jcoxon> so the pic will receive input and then act as a timer
[17:40] <Max0> cool
[17:41] <Max0> could u code a gpio
[17:41] <Max0> couldnt*
[17:41] <Max0> or u ran out
[17:41] <jcoxon> no no this is an independent module
[17:41] <jcoxon> there won't be a flight computer with it
[17:41] <Max0> ah right cool
[17:42] <jcoxon> well there will but that'll be further up the train
[17:42] Action: DarkFlib looks up from his coding
[17:42] <DarkFlib> hey people
[17:42] <Max0> hey DarkFlib
[17:48] <DarkFlib> sup?
[17:51] <Max0> not much relearning gcse electronics
[17:51] <DarkFlib> lol... its not difficult...
[17:51] <DarkFlib> especially at the level you need for this type of stuff
[17:51] <DarkFlib> you can learn it by rote almost...
[17:52] <Max0> yuh i know just been a while its got circuits etc in my book
[17:52] <DarkFlib> its not as if you are scratch building microwave RF circuits
[17:52] <Max0> like monostables flip flops etc
[17:52] <DarkFlib> I tend to emulate that in software...
[17:53] <DarkFlib> just need a clock generator... a reset generator and a small microcontroller
[17:53] <Max0> yuh ive just installed ktechlan
[17:53] <Max0> lab*
[17:54] <DarkFlib> I used to do a lot on a 1Mhz processor... with the newer 20Mhz+ processors most of my old designs will be just sitting around twiddling their thumbs...
[17:54] <DarkFlib> waiting for interupts and such
[17:59] <Max0> DarkFlib: did u know about z3EK?
[17:59] <DarkFlib> what about him?
[17:59] <Max0> tried to kill him self
[17:59] <DarkFlib> he did?
[17:59] <DarkFlib> why?
[18:00] <Max0> treid to od
[18:00] <Max0> think its to do with his dad
[18:00] <DarkFlib> sure it wasn't an accident? I know most of that channel does copious amounts of drugs
[18:01] <Max0> no seriously was with parocemol
[18:01] <DarkFlib> k..
[18:01] <DarkFlib> just checking...
[18:01] <Max0> his dad toped him self
[18:01] <Max0> n i think it fucked him over
[18:02] <DarkFlib> k... that could be enough to trigger it in most people if you were close
[18:03] <Max0> yuh
[18:05] <icez> sad
[18:05] <DarkFlib> 1/3rd of the population will suffer some kind of metal issue at some point of their lives according to stats...
[18:06] <DarkFlib> I'd say it is higher... but some people don't show it...
[18:06] <icez> with the kind of world today, no wonder :/
[18:06] <DarkFlib> its not as if families are close anymore...
[18:06] <Max0> Tesla Coil Circuits
[18:06] <Max0> mwhaha
[18:07] <icez> DarkFlib, but there's a lot of stupid things happening in the world
[18:07] <DarkFlib> 50 years ago, you would be likely to live very close to the rest of the family... neighbours came and went
[18:07] <DarkFlib> you had a support network...
[18:08] <DarkFlib> now a days you are stuck with myspace friendships, sms and irc...
[18:08] <icez> lol
[18:08] <Max0> it is a dog eat dog world
[18:08] <DarkFlib> there isn't the same type of relationships...
[18:08] <icez> not everyone though
[18:09] <DarkFlib> no...
[18:09] <Max0> DarkFlib: whats your myspace?
[18:09] <DarkFlib> but it is the majority
[18:09] <DarkFlib> Max0, I don't use myspace
[18:09] <icez> well
[18:09] <icez> i wouldn't say majority
[18:10] <icez> some countries don't have internet, some can't have it, some have it blocked, some have better things to do
[18:10] <Max0> sms yeah
[18:10] <icez> I think SMS is stupid :]
[18:10] <Max0> its cool for saying stuff u wouldnt say face to face
[18:11] <Max0> eg flirtin with a girl
[18:11] <Max0> :D
[18:11] <icez> bah, nowadays they call you pervert just for saying hi
[18:11] <icez> :P
[18:15] <DarkFlib> I would probably call Max0 a pervert if he didn't say 'Hi!'
[18:15] <DarkFlib> :P
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[18:16] <Max0> ;)
[18:16] <Max0> im getting abused from a 40 year old
[18:16] <Max0> n im 23 :)
[18:16] Action: DarkFlib is not 40
[18:16] <DarkFlib> 28
[18:16] <Max0> lol nooo lass
[18:17] <Max0> who i used to work with
[18:17] <Max0> DarkFlib hows the balloon coming together?
[18:18] <DarkFlib> not bad... got the parts together... just going through calculations now...
[18:18] <icez> is there a minimum size those solar balloons can be?
[18:18] <icez> :)
[18:18] <DarkFlib> icez, yes... the surface area to volume ratio needs to be enough to lift the weight of the envelope
[18:19] <DarkFlib> but since surface area is a ^2 and volume is a ^3 its not too difficult
[18:19] <DarkFlib> double radius and the surface quadruples... but volume octuples...
[18:20] <icez> I was thinking of just doing a little one with a little weight under and see how it goes
[18:20] <DarkFlib> 4 bin bags seems to be useable... if they are thin enough
[18:20] <icez> oh..I was thinking much smaller
[18:20] <icez> :/
[18:21] <DarkFlib> 4 bin bags in a tetroon isn't that big...
[18:21] <Max0> what lift would 4 have
[18:21] <DarkFlib> you are only looking at a 1.2metre balloon
[18:21] <DarkFlib> iirc 4 has about 50-80grams
[18:21] <DarkFlib> but I'd have to work it out
[19:03] LaurenceB (n=laurence@host86-137-224-17.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[19:06] <DarkFlib> hey LaurenceB
[19:18] <LaurenceB> hi there
[19:19] <DarkFlib> whats new?
[19:24] <LaurenceB> Havn't done any balloon work for a couple of days, building a conservatory
[19:25] <DarkFlib> similar here... working on making money...
[19:26] <DarkFlib> gotta finish this site soon...
[19:26] <icez> you make websites?:)
[19:26] <DarkFlib> has been known...
[19:26] <DarkFlib> backend stuff mostly...
[19:26] <DarkFlib> coding
[19:27] <DarkFlib> number allocation site for voip
[19:27] <icez> i was thinking a while ago about doing web design and all that stuff, but I actually found out I really hate it
[19:27] <icez> :P
[19:28] <DarkFlib> I hate it... I'm just good at it...
[19:28] <icez> sucks to be good at something you hate :]
[19:28] <DarkFlib> most people never find out tho...
[19:29] <DarkFlib> since they never try doing things they hate
[19:31] <icez> yeah
[19:34] <LaurenceB> darkflib are you planning on a solar balloon?
[19:36] <LaurenceB> I was thinking of something sort of intermediate between a normal ballon and solar one
[19:37] <LaurenceB> a rubber balloon with valve to release helium to prevent it popping
[19:39] <DarkFlib> yes
[19:40] <DarkFlib> I think a solar balloon makes most sense on a budget
[19:41] <LaurenceB> It needs to be quite big to get to altitude
[19:42] <LaurenceB> but its possible as solar heating is prop 10% of helium
[19:44] <LaurenceB> it you wanted to launch a pc104 board it would need a lot of lift
[19:48] <DarkFlib> not especially... its not that different from a hot air balloon...
[19:49] <DarkFlib> the temperature difference between a hot air balloon and surrounding air is maybe 80C... a solar balloon is maybe 20C (even at altitude)
[19:49] <DarkFlib> so yes... it needs to be bigger but not massively so
[19:49] <LaurenceB> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4x-SOLENOID-VALVE-12-24-V-IDEAL-FOR-KOI-POND-TOP-UP_W0QQitemZ330074172834QQihZ014QQcategoryZ93633QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[19:50] <icez> wouldn't it be possible to use the same technique as a hot-air balloon also?
[19:50] <LaurenceB> at altitude the solar heating will be much greater
[19:51] <LaurenceB> due to lower air density, one us solar balloon melted!
[19:51] <icez> :/
[19:51] <LaurenceB> hardly a risk in the uk I think
[19:52] <icez> lol..I just learned yesterday why the UK is so rainy
[19:56] <LaurenceB> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DURITE-ANTI-THEFT-12V-SOLENOID-VALVE-FOR-PETROL-DIESEL_W0QQitemZ120043067905QQihZ002QQcategoryZ15329QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
[19:56] <LaurenceB> looks useful
[20:19] <LaurenceB> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PVC-Double-Union-Glue-Socket-Ball-Valve-3-8-4_W0QQitemZ250011461717QQihZ015QQcategoryZ93636QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
[20:19] <DarkFlib> a valve doesn't have to be complex...
[20:19] <LaurenceB> used with a servo would be good
[20:19] <LaurenceB> it has to be reliable tho
[20:20] <DarkFlib> most solar balloons just have a small hole at the base... and rely on pendulum stability to stop convection causing air to leak out of it... (since its always at the bottom and heat rises)
[20:20] <LaurenceB> yes I'm looking at valves for a vented rubber helium balloon
[20:21] <LaurenceB> problem with a solar balloon is how do you get down?
[20:21] <DarkFlib> been working on that...
[20:21] <LaurenceB> cut down a you lose your lovely envelope
[20:21] <DarkFlib> either cool it... or decrease its volume...
[20:21] <LaurenceB> parachute valves work
[20:22] <LaurenceB> one at the top and a line coming down to a motor in the payload
[20:22] <LaurenceB> similar to real hot air balloons
[20:23] <DarkFlib> I was thinking about having a small line from the centre of the top, to the payload... and just winching them in together to reduce volume...
[20:23] <DarkFlib> you can winch out again to increase volume... and its repeatable...
[20:23] <LaurenceB> yes, would need a fairly powerful motor, but simpler and more reliable than parachute valve
[20:24] <DarkFlib> doesn't even need to be a fast... a worm gear would do it
[20:24] <LaurenceB> ie powerful enough to raise payload against its own weight
[20:24] <LaurenceB> use lego technic!
[20:24] <DarkFlib> exactly...
[20:24] <DarkFlib> its not a biggie...
[20:25] <DarkFlib> I was looking at the gas equations and thought why lose the hot air.... they not change the other part of the equation?
[20:25] <LaurenceB> are you going to use pc104 board?
[20:25] <DarkFlib> maybe...
[20:25] <DarkFlib> depends on how light I can make the payload
[20:26] <LaurenceB> its heavy, I would go for large momory card on camera
[20:26] <DarkFlib> probably gonna work on 500grams for payload... and
[20:26] <DarkFlib> then control ascent and decent using the volume adjustment
[20:26] <LaurenceB> 500 grams is tough for micros
[20:26] <DarkFlib> so it will be oversized
[20:26] <LaurenceB> doubt it could be done with pc104
[20:26] <DarkFlib> its tough... but not impossible
[20:27] <DarkFlib> thats why pc104 isn't likely
[20:27] <LaurenceB> my lightest fully functioning payload was 300 grams
[20:27] <LaurenceB> and it was designed around being as ligh as poss
[20:28] <DarkFlib> if it comes down to 1kg and bigger envelope or 500grams and 3 times the price... I'll go for extra weight
[20:28] <LaurenceB> batteries, camera ect it all ads up, also the payload structure ends up being quite heavy
[20:29] <LaurenceB> you need a lot of insulation
[20:29] <DarkFlib> I've been thinking about that...
[20:29] <DarkFlib> it might be possible to put the payload inside the envelope... gain an extra 20C
[20:29] <LaurenceB> on nova1 they had hardy any insulation, and froze the radio
[20:30] <LaurenceB> payload in envelope- good idea
[20:30] <LaurenceB> but how does camera take photos
[20:30] <DarkFlib> just need to be careful of centre of gravity
[20:30] <LaurenceB> have to have it below
[20:31] <DarkFlib> yup... but since its much smaller, you could get away with a few changes....
[20:31] <LaurenceB> Fraid I'm off now cya
[20:31] <DarkFlib> amount of insulation would be proporsionally bigger
[20:31] <LaurenceB> got to do some revision for uni exams
[20:31] <DarkFlib> k...later
[20:31] <LaurenceB> cya
[20:31] LaurenceB (n=laurence@host86-137-224-17.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) left irc:
[20:33] <jcoxon> DarkFlib, i guess you could use exceedingly lightweight frame
[20:33] <jcoxon> to hold hte payload within the envelope
[20:33] <DarkFlib> I'm just trying to work through the problems others have had
[20:36] <DarkFlib> even considered hanging the payload from the top of the envelope,,, but not sure how well that will work...
[20:36] <DarkFlib> since there wont be that much pressure
[20:36] <jcoxon> hmmmm not sure how that would work
[20:37] <jcoxon> can't really get my head around it actually
[20:37] Action: jcoxon 's physics fails him
[20:41] <DarkFlib> basicly the air is a fluid...
[20:41] <icez> i don't think the load on top would work either
[20:42] <DarkFlib> so it puts pressure out according to its depth (or in this case height since its a negative pressure kinda)
[20:42] <jcoxon> surely all that would hold the payload up would be the small area it was attached to
[20:42] <DarkFlib> the top 1/4 of the balloon does most of the lifting...
[20:42] <jcoxon> when its attached below then you have a large surface area for hte payloads downward force to be spread over and countered
[20:46] <DarkFlib> basicly as I see it, it would pull on the point its attached to... however, that would displibute the load to areas surrounding it... you would get a shape similar to donut on the top (assuming a single central connection point)
[20:46] <DarkFlib> I think there would be a limit to the amount of load you could apply to the top tho...
[20:47] <DarkFlib> it might not be all the payload capacity of the balloon
[20:47] <DarkFlib> since by deforming it you are changing its volume/surface area
[20:48] <DarkFlib> I'll have to go through the calcs for it...
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[22:16] <Max0> yo
[22:27] <DarkFlib> yoyo
[22:55] <Max0> hey
[22:55] <Max0> sorry was talking to a mate on the phone
[22:56] <Max0> hows the plans for the ballon goin?
[22:56] Nick change: Max0 -> Max00
[22:56] <Max00> /msg NickServ IDENTIFY born2be3
[22:56] <icez> woops
[22:56] <Max00> yuh
[22:56] <Max00> bolloxs
[22:57] <Max00> u didnt see that
[22:57] Action: Max00 jedi waves
[22:57] <DarkFlib> not bad
[22:57] <DarkFlib> see what?
[22:57] <DarkFlib> /msg NickServ IDENTIFY ******** <-- what I saw
[22:58] <Max00> ;)
[22:58] <icez> lol
[22:58] <DarkFlib> your irc client automagically hides it for you
[22:58] <DarkFlib> :P
[22:58] <Max00> u seen that on bash?
[22:58] <DarkFlib> yup
[22:58] <Max00> lol
[22:58] <DarkFlib> I was hoping you hadn't
[22:58] <Max00> ;)
[23:14] <DarkFlib> if these sites pay off, then I should be able to afford a better payload...
[23:18] <DarkFlib> still thinking about putting my own accelerometer on it as payload...
[23:19] <DarkFlib> even with gps broken it should still be able to roughly guess its location...
[23:19] <DarkFlib> as a nice side effect you can see its flight profile very easily
[23:20] <DarkFlib> wind heights etc
[23:24] <Max00> what about recovery?
[23:25] <DarkFlib> might see if I can do something about making it postable...
[23:25] <DarkFlib> the payload is a parcel
[23:25] <DarkFlib> :P
[23:25] <DarkFlib> depends where it lands tho
[23:26] <DarkFlib> could also make it disposable... altho if its got an expensive gps etc, I wouldn't think thats feasible
[23:26] <Max00> my gps was 14.25 posted
[23:27] <Max00> need a antenna tho
[23:27] <DarkFlib> active or passive?
[23:27] <DarkFlib> the ant I mean
[23:27] <Max00> the unit does both
[23:27] <Max00> not sure which will be better
[23:27] <Max00> ill prob go wit hactive
[23:27] <Max00> active*
[23:28] <DarkFlib> active is better... but if its well away from obstacles like buildings and trees, it might not be a problem
[23:28] <DarkFlib> active does use electricity tho
[23:32] <Max00> yuh think im going to try it as a war driving unit first
[23:32] <Max00> then move on to a payload as version 2
[23:32] <DarkFlib> I've heard of many GPS units cutting out over 1000feet altitude...
[23:33] <DarkFlib> sine they want you to use the air versions
[23:33] <DarkFlib> so try it on a tethered version before you trust it on a free flight
[23:34] <Max00> it says 60,000 ft on the pdf
[23:35] <DarkFlib> thats not too bad then
[23:35] <Max00> logs altitide as well
[23:35] <Max00> u looked into radios
[23:35] <Max00> as think im goin to buy that module for £13
[23:35] <DarkFlib> 60 000 feet = 18 288 meters <-- according to google
[23:36] <DarkFlib> not a great deal...
[23:36] <DarkFlib> 18km should be enough on smaller balloons...
[23:37] <DarkFlib> always give yourself some margin on specs
[23:39] <Max00> yuh anyways callin it a night
[23:39] <Max00> laters
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[00:00] --- Fri Jan 12 2007