highaltitude.log.20070108

[00:35] LaurenceB (n=laurence@host81-159-32-46.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[00:35] <LaurenceB> hi everyone :)
[00:35] <LaurenceB> Just got back from the erm launch...
[00:35] <LaurenceB> of a tangerine
[00:36] <LaurenceB> on a 350gram balloon
[00:39] <LaurenceB> hopefully we'll have better luck next weekend!
[00:39] <icez> hey
[00:46] <LaurenceB> hi there guess you heard about the "launch"
[00:46] <icez> yeah
[00:46] <icez> the little beacon
[00:46] <icez> :p
[00:46] <icez> well
[00:46] <icez> i heard about jcoxon's "launch"
[00:46] <icez> not the tangerine?!
[00:47] <LaurenceB> yes henry taped on a tangerine
[00:47] <icez> lol.
[00:47] <LaurenceB> probably now in the north sea
[00:47] <icez> :/
[00:48] <icez> little fishies will enjoy a little sweet
[00:48] <icez> :]
[00:48] <LaurenceB> at least my payload wasnt on it
[00:48] <icez> lol:P
[00:48] <icez> did you launch yours?
[00:48] <LaurenceB> no, it has no tracking
[00:48] <icez> ok
[00:49] <icez> I found a ballooning group in arizona, they have cool stuff
[00:49] <LaurenceB> me a james worked overnight to get something to work
[00:49] <icez> their record is ~105000 feets
[00:49] <LaurenceB> but it looks like the gps ant broke somehow
[00:49] <icez> :(
[00:50] <LaurenceB> just before we were about to launch everything
[00:50] <icez> the joys of trouble
[00:50] <icez> and the joy of electronics :)
[00:51] <LaurenceB> we thought it was broken to start with, but tested it and it seemed to be fine, guess something is wrong with it
[00:51] <LaurenceB> james will probably find out for sure
[00:51] <LaurenceB> oh well I'm off to bed cya
[00:51] <icez> cya
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[16:24] <LaurenceB> hi there jcoxon
[16:24] <LaurenceB> recovered yet?
[16:24] <LaurenceB> Train too ages had to catch a bus
[16:24] <LaurenceB> -took
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[16:29] <LaurenceB> I think I've worked out how to get my camera to take video, will get a 512Mb card for it for next weekend
[16:30] Weiss (i=taw27@pip.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[16:31] <LaurenceB> will be the first UKHAS video hopefully :-)
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[17:41] Max00 (n=mythtv@host86-128-47-200.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[17:45] <icez> hey Max00
[17:45] <Max00> hey
[17:49] <Max00> hows it goin?
[17:50] <icez> i'm laughing at one of only 2 "real" electronics store we have here
[17:50] <icez> they put LEDs as integrated circuits:/
[17:50] <icez> and resistors
[17:55] <icez> how about you?
[17:56] <Max00> just finished work and goin for a curry
[17:56] <Max00> :S
[17:56] <Max00> :D even
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[18:11] <Max00> !postion
[18:33] <jcoxon> hey all
[18:33] Action: jcoxon has persuaded his college to open the irc port
[18:36] <Max00> :O
[18:36] <Max00> how did you manage that?
[18:37] <jcoxon> just said that i needed irc as i was a memeber of a project and needed to communicate with the rest of the team
[18:38] <Max00> u could have used a bnc
[18:38] <Max00> on a differnet port as i had to do that from uni
[18:38] <jcoxon> its easier this way :-)
[18:39] <Max00> yuh
[18:39] <jcoxon> i was origanally ssh into the student server and running bitchx from there
[18:40] <icez> haha :D
[18:40] <Max00> lol thats well lax secuirty
[18:40] <Max00> do a uname -a and look on milw0rm.com and root it
[18:41] <Max00> :D
[18:42] <jcoxon> the firewall is to stop the use of DC
[18:42] <jcoxon> and it will as most people who use it have had it set up by their friends
[18:43] <jcoxon> some people will be able to work their way around it
[18:43] <jcoxon> but for hte majority it'll be too complicated
[18:43] <Max00> yuh i caught someone today gettin round our web proxy which bans ebay
[18:44] <Max00> they got onto it via ebay.ie
[18:44] <jcoxon> clever
[18:44] <Max00> yuh i only noticed as the bookmarked it
[18:44] <Max00> lol
[18:45] <icez> I used to surf in french at school because they only seemed to detect english phrases
[18:45] <icez> :)
[18:45] <Max00> nice
[18:45] Action: jcoxon is still tired from the all nighter building the gumstix/radio payload
[18:45] <Max00> i know ours has a few french terms only one or 2
[18:45] <jcoxon> should ask Laurence what we should call the payload
[18:45] <Max00> lol i was up at 6am todaylightweight
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[18:46] <Max00> :P
[18:46] <Max00> ive download a electronics package
[18:46] <Max00> to re master the old eletronics
[18:47] <jcoxon> oh cool
[18:47] <jcoxon> i don't think i'm going to rebuild pegasus IV to fly for a while
[18:47] <jcoxon> (i took it apart at hte launch site)
[18:47] <icez> that's one sexy linux-running computer: http://www.picotux.com/
[18:50] <Max00> crazy!
[18:51] <Max00> i want one
[18:51] <icez> expensive though
[18:52] <icez> I could just put an atmega with a rs232 and forget the ethernet :p
[18:53] <icez> there's even one you can power through ethernet :D
[18:53] <Max00> cool
[18:54] <Max00> it needs a sd mod for a few gig hd
[18:54] <Max00> then it would be amazing
[18:54] <icez> yeah, 4MB doesn't go too far
[18:55] <jcoxon> hmmm the weather for a saturday launch isn't very good
[18:56] <icez> :(
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[19:34] <max0> test
[19:35] <jcoxon> test recieved
[19:35] <jcoxon> received*
[19:39] <Max00> dont think its loggin tho
[19:40] <jcoxon> this your bot?
[19:41] rocketboy (n=steve@217.47.75.133) joined #highaltitude.
[19:43] <jcoxon> hey rocketboy
[19:44] <Max00> no its irssi but will add a bot to it if i can get it to log
[19:44] <jcoxon> zeusbot logs you know
[19:44] <jcoxon> but feel free to add another :-p
[19:45] <jcoxon> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~jac208/pegasus/logs/
[19:50] <rocketboy> yo - no phone calls then Jcoxon?
[19:50] <jcoxon> nope
[19:50] <jcoxon> why?
[19:51] <rocketboy> just wondered
[19:51] <rocketboy> (re loat payload)
[19:51] <rocketboy> lost
[19:52] <jcoxon> i've had nothing
[19:52] <jcoxon> though i don't think my number was on it
[19:52] <jcoxon> was it?
[19:53] <rocketboy> oh OK - I thought it was - Henrys perhaps
[19:53] <jcoxon> its his number on the cutdown
[19:54] <rocketboy> Oh OK
[19:54] <jcoxon> :)
[19:54] <jcoxon> weather looks awful for hte weekend :-(
[19:55] <rocketboy> humm - I was thinking about what you said - and it would probably be better to wait for a few payloads to be finished and working before picking a day
[19:56] <jcoxon> just have the matter of the helium
[19:56] <rocketboy> that way we can just choose the next good jetstream day
[19:56] <rocketboy> I cant think the tha bottle hire will be that expensive
[19:56] <jcoxon> yeah true
[19:57] <jcoxon> i might return their regulator thing to them
[19:57] <jcoxon> we can just hold onto the bottle
[19:57] <jcoxon> hopefully mc- will give them a call
[19:57] <jcoxon> though they aren't open on mondays
[19:58] <rocketboy> ok ok - the regulator was theres then?
[19:58] <jcoxon> yup
[19:58] <rocketboy> theirs
[19:58] <jcoxon> its actually not the regulator
[19:58] <jcoxon> more the nozzle thing - we didn't even use it as henry attached directly
[19:58] <rocketboy> what did you think of filling it without?
[19:59] <jcoxon> it wasn't bad filling with out hte nozzle
[19:59] <jcoxon> as you didn't need to keep holding hte nozzle down to let the gas out
[20:00] <rocketboy> fast too
[20:00] <jcoxon> yup
[20:00] <jcoxon> i don't think you need the nozzle
[20:00] <jcoxon> its really for filling small balloons
[20:00] <jcoxon> where if you turned the knob you'd blow up the balloon
[20:00] <rocketboy> just a bit worried about the potential to burst the tube if it kinked
[20:00] <jcoxon> the regulator has dropped the pressure down
[20:01] <jcoxon> i think if we are careful it'll be fine
[20:01] <jcoxon> same risk with the nozzle
[20:02] <rocketboy> maybe so
[20:02] <jcoxon> i also think that as we have more people coming to launches we should adopt the US style of ballooning
[20:02] <jcoxon> with a filler team
[20:02] <jcoxon> who don't fiddle with the payload
[20:03] <jcoxon> would speed up preparation at the launch
[20:03] <rocketboy> OK
[20:03] <jcoxon> so they organise the balloon/helium and filling
[20:03] <jcoxon> while the payload operators get ready
[20:03] <jcoxon> though we still wait for the payloads to be set up before we start filling
[20:04] <jcoxon> but i guess we can have all the tubes attached etc
[20:04] <rocketboy> It would have been better to have filled the balloon after the payloads were working (like you said originally)
[20:05] <jcoxon> well we sort of did - but it stopped working :-p
[20:05] <jcoxon> but yeah
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[20:06] <rocketboy> yeah - you need them all working for a few mins before filling
[20:06] <rocketboy> given the quick fill speed
[20:07] <jcoxon> also the balloon team can work on getting the right amount of helium
[20:07] <rocketboy> - athe filling team can be responsible for chute RADAR and cord too
[20:07] <jcoxon> yeah thats a good idea
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[20:07] <jcoxon> have you seen the utarc webpages
[20:07] <rocketboy> have you got the video from yesterday - I'd like to see what happend to the RADAR reflector - if it was captured
[20:08] <jcoxon> the balloon team also pack up
[20:08] <jcoxon> while the payload team track etc
[20:08] <rocketboy> utarc - do not think so
[20:08] <jcoxon> i'll check that i actually videoed the launch
[20:08] <rocketboy> ah - ok that makes sense
[20:09] <rocketboy> Also It would be good to have a remote team part way in the direction to the predicted landing spot
[20:10] <jcoxon> hmmm my launch video isn't great
[20:10] <jcoxon> but i'll upload it in a sec
[20:10] <rocketboy> ta
[20:12] <jcoxon> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/pegasus4/P1010196.MOV
[20:13] <jcoxon> http://www.utarc.org/wiki/index.php/Icarus_1/2
[20:13] <jcoxon> utarc have the advantage of not really needing to worry about the weather
[20:20] <jcoxon> hmmm at hmmm
[20:20] <jcoxon> hehe
[20:20] <jcoxon> i can get just under 6 hours of video at 160x120 from my camera
[20:20] <jcoxon> the battery will prob run out first though
[20:21] <jcoxon> or 22 minutes at 640x480
[20:21] <rocketboy> - I'm sure we could rig up an external battery
[20:21] <jcoxon> i'm now worked out how to turn the camera on and off as well
[20:21] <rocketboy> thanks for the video - I'm still trying to work out where it went wrong
[20:22] <jcoxon> i guess the reflector should go at the very bottom
[20:22] <rocketboy> - it must have been when the payload was released
[20:23] <rocketboy> the initial pull against the wind must have been too great
[20:24] <rocketboy> I'm contemplating if I should try the same design or one with kite spars
[20:24] <max0> $ locate default.theme
[20:25] <Max00> lol
[20:25] <Max00> doh
[20:26] <jcoxon> hehe
[20:28] <rocketboy> I'll BBL - I'm just going to try something with the payload software
[20:34] mc- (n=mfcastle@cpc2-glfd1-0-0-cust995.glfd.cable.ntl.com) joined #highaltitude.
[20:35] <jcoxon> hey m
[20:35] <jcoxon> mc-,
[20:35] <jcoxon> oops
[20:38] <mc-> hey jc
[20:39] <jcoxon> is there chance you could give party days a call tomorrow about the helium
[20:39] <jcoxon> i reckon if we can we should try and hold on to it
[20:40] <jcoxon> also your address and a method to pay you back for my share would be great)
[20:40] <mc-> will email you soon
[20:40] <mc-> did you take the filling attachments back?
[20:41] <jcoxon> no i still have that
[20:41] <jcoxon> but i can
[20:42] <max0> test123
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[21:00] <jcoxon> bbl
[21:05] DarkFlib (n=DarkFlib@cpc2-nfds9-0-0-cust509.lei3.cable.ntl.com) joined #highaltitude.
[21:06] <Max00> hey DarkFlib
[21:06] <DarkFlib> hey
[21:06] <Max00> :)
[21:07] <Max00> how big is the test ballon goin to be?
[21:07] <DarkFlib> surface area approx 2.4x1.2metres
[21:08] <DarkFlib> so maybe about 1 cu metre... still working through the calcs...
[21:08] <Max00> cool
[21:08] <Max00> :D
[21:08] <Max00> keep us posted
[21:08] <DarkFlib> thats a guess-timate... not accurate...
[21:09] <Max00> i work on tistmates
[21:10] <Max00> did i tell you i got a gps unit?
[21:10] <DarkFlib> nope
[21:10] <Max00> heh 14.20 including p+p
[21:10] <Max00> he has some.. ill get the link
[21:10] <DarkFlib> I might try to rebuild my inertial tracker.... 6 solid state accelerometers....
[21:11] <Max00> say what?
[21:11] <DarkFlib> can give full profiles of the flight including rotation...
[21:12] <DarkFlib> still... that adds about 50grams on its own... so maybe for a later version
[21:13] <Max00> only 50g
[21:13] <Max00> did u make it
[21:13] <Max00> or buy it
[21:13] <DarkFlib> made it...
[21:14] <Max00> url?
[21:14] <DarkFlib> I designed it for my wearable computer
[21:14] <DarkFlib> not online atm... sorry
[21:15] <Max00> im trying to get my payload sorted before i work out the balloon stuff
[21:16] <DarkFlib> I want to build a proof of concept first... since I know the payload is feasible
[21:16] <DarkFlib> I need to validate my calculations initially...
[21:16] <DarkFlib> since there is a lot of unknowns still for me...
[21:18] <Max00> hehe and me...
[21:18] <Max00> one unknow could be the downfall as well
[21:19] <DarkFlib> thats why I need to test...
[21:19] <DarkFlib> so far total consumables are under £5
[21:19] <DarkFlib> that I can live with throwing away...
[21:20] <Max00> :)
[21:20] <Max00> they just normal bin bags?
[21:21] <DarkFlib> yes
[21:22] <Max00> are they thick enough?
[21:22] <DarkFlib> thin enough you mean?
[21:23] <DarkFlib> I think so... I went for the thinest I could find...
[21:23] <Max00> the thinner the better?
[21:23] <DarkFlib> pretty much... its mass/volume that seems to be important...
[21:23] <DarkFlib> while maintaining as much sun facing surface area as possible
[21:25] <Max00> cool any idea when you will have time to knock it together?
[21:27] <DarkFlib> maybe the week end....
[21:27] <Max00> :D
[21:27] <DarkFlib> need to design a pattern for it first
[21:27] <DarkFlib> might go for a tetroon
[21:28] <DarkFlib> but maybe not... depends on a few things....
[21:30] <Max00> col
[21:30] <Max00> cool*
[21:40] <DarkFlib> it seems that while the balloons are small (less than 4metres or so) they wont require any reinforcement... according to my calcs on shear of the plastic...
[21:40] <DarkFlib> once you get over that point you need to distribute the load a little... so you'd probably start to tape the seems instead of heat sealing...
[21:41] <DarkFlib> but some of my figures might be out....
[21:41] <DarkFlib> still its interesting
[21:42] <Max00> i know nothing about them at all
[21:42] <mc-> hi rocketboy, shall I send you a GPS antenna?
[21:43] <DarkFlib> okay... let me try to explain it... you know how carrier bags when you have heavy shopping in them, the handles break....
[21:43] <DarkFlib> basicly you get the same issue with bigger balloons... so you need to distibute the load somehow...
[21:44] <DarkFlib> I was just trying to work out how much load... but I'm making a lot of assumptions in my calcs...
[21:44] <Max00> sorry the phone went
[21:44] <DarkFlib> np
[21:44] <Max00> i was going to say
[21:44] <Max00> i know nothing but...
[21:44] <Max00> if say its as thin as a plastic carrier bag
[21:44] <Max00> and has no seams
[21:44] <Max00> would the wind not change the shape?
[21:45] <DarkFlib> remember you have hot air inside that is trying to find a way to escape out the top... you will tend to get a bubble of hot air at the top of the envelope and the rest of the envelope hanging from that....
[21:46] <DarkFlib> let me see if I can find a diagram
[21:46] <Max00> no i get ya
[21:47] <jcoxon> hi DarkFlib
[21:47] <DarkFlib> hey jcoxon
[21:47] <icez> this place keeps getting populated :)
[21:47] <DarkFlib> Max00 dragged me here from undernet
[21:48] <jcoxon> you building a solar balloon?
[21:48] <DarkFlib> yup
[21:48] <jcoxon> cool
[21:48] <jcoxon> i've only just joined a solar balloon yahoo group - impressive what people have done
[21:49] <Max00> noobs
[21:49] <Max00> :)
[21:50] <jcoxon> gotta start somewhere :-p
[21:50] <Max00> i need to find something old i can attack with the soldering iron
[21:50] <Max00> to get decent at soldering
[21:50] <DarkFlib> technically I am a noob with ballooning.... my background is just general geekdom
[21:50] <jcoxon> hehe
[21:51] <icez> then i'm the noobest of all ballooning noobs
[21:51] <jcoxon> i think we are all learning every launch
[21:51] <jcoxon> *attempted launch* :-)
[21:52] <Max00> hehe coding to 5am as well
[21:52] <Max00> :D
[21:52] <icez> i'm thinking about what I can use to receive GPS coordinates from something pretty far wirelessly
[21:53] <Max00> sms, radio, gprs
[21:53] <DarkFlib> sms will fail above 500-900metres
[21:53] <DarkFlib> generally
[21:53] <icez> don't I need a license for radio?
[21:53] <icez> :P
[21:53] <jcoxon> well there will be exempt freqs
[21:53] <DarkFlib> there are ISM bands for radio which are excempt
[21:53] <jcoxon> depends on the US laws of course for you
[21:54] <icez> ok.
[21:54] <jcoxon> e.g. we use 434mhz to communicate
[21:54] <jcoxon> thats licence exempt if its below 10mW
[21:54] <DarkFlib> I'd probably use a low rate, low freq trasmitter to give basic gps and other data... then use that data to point a high gain ant at the balloon...
[21:55] <Max00> jcoxon: how high do you get sms from?
[21:55] <jcoxon> not high at all
[21:55] <jcoxon> couple of thousand feet
[21:56] <Max00> high enough for gprs to fly a plane about
[21:57] <jcoxon> could be
[21:57] <jcoxon> but there are easier ways then gprs surely
[21:57] <mc-> it's much easier to use a radio module than gprs, and cheaper
[21:58] <DarkFlib> you can get commercial radio modules that will do 10miles at 9.6 or 14.4....
[21:58] <DarkFlib> you can use a higher gain ant on the rx end to boost that range...
[21:59] <icez> mmm
[21:59] <jcoxon> though as a warning the actual freqs you can transmit from a aerial vehicle is different to that on hte ground
[21:59] <jcoxon> so for example in hte UK 868mhz isn't allowed in the air
[21:59] <jcoxon> but it is licence exempt
[21:59] <icez> that's funny
[21:59] <icez> :p
[22:00] <Max00> where could i get a 434 fm kit from?
[22:01] <jcoxon> you could make one :-D
[22:01] <Max00> as my scanner should pick that up but would have to code some serious software
[22:01] <jcoxon> or perhaps someone here could put together one for you
[22:01] <DarkFlib> doesn't need to be complex... just straight FSK of an AM signal would do it.... at least initially
[22:01] <jcoxon> i've 'stolen' the one that i was was hacking up on sat night
[22:02] <Max00> if they could tell me the parts and diagrams i could have a bash
[22:02] <Max00> with a breadboard and soldering iron
[22:03] <jcoxon> bbl
[22:03] <mc-> rapidelectronics.co.uk have some radio modules
[22:04] <Max00> cheers
[22:04] <DarkFlib> http://www.rapidonline.com/
[22:05] <DarkFlib> basicly if you you get a choice, go for FM over AM... it rejects interference better...
[22:05] <mc-> though the easy modules aren't really suitable
[22:05] <DarkFlib> but AM is really simple to build...
[22:06] <icez> I know where to get FM radios kits...but I'm not sure if it's the right thing :P
[22:06] <mc-> check if your scanner can receive AM?
[22:06] <DarkFlib> most scanners I've seen can...
[22:06] <mc-> mine doesn't..
[22:06] <DarkFlib> :(
[22:07] <DarkFlib> mine does... but it needs fixing...
[22:07] <icez> I had one but it was old and died
[22:07] <DarkFlib> also got SSB and narrowband FM
[22:07] <mc-> AM can be better than FM, since AM is in a smaller bandwidth.
[22:07] <Max00> yeah mine does am and fm
[22:08] <mc-> If you have AM, then you can connect to a PC soundcard and do narrow band filtering
[22:08] <mc-> where are you based DarkFlib and Max00?
[22:09] <DarkFlib> Leicester, UK
[22:09] <Max00> UK / York
[22:09] <Max00> u?
[22:09] <mc-> south London, so between us we can cover a good part of the uk.
[22:09] <Max00> i can decode pager messages with my scanner into sound card
[22:10] <icez> shortwave radios? is that it?
[22:10] <DarkFlib> mc: guildford?
[22:10] <mc-> gotta go, cya
[22:11] <DarkFlib> later
[22:11] mc- (n=mfcastle@cpc2-glfd1-0-0-cust995.glfd.cable.ntl.com) left irc:
[22:12] <icez> when they talk about meters in shortwave bands...is that the range or the wavelength or ?
[22:12] <Max00> http://www.lprs.co.uk/main/product.info.php?productid=24
[22:13] <Max00> wave i think
[22:13] Action: Max00 waves
[22:14] <rocketboy> yep wavelength
[22:15] <icez> hi rocketboy
[22:15] <rocketboy> hi
[22:15] <rocketboy> how is it going
[22:16] <icez> a bit bored but it's all good
[22:16] Action: DarkFlib chomps down on a cheese and onion sarnie
[22:18] <rocketboy> I'm fixing the problems with my payload - I just got the radio downlink woring again - one less bug to fix
[22:18] <rocketboy> now all i need to do is get the phone working again
[22:18] <DarkFlib> I think the best method might be to get myself a ham license...
[22:19] <DarkFlib> anyone can listen.... and since I'm covered by the license I have a greater number of options
[22:19] <rocketboy> that isn't going to help for a downlink (at the moment) as a ham licence is specifically barred for airborne operation
[22:19] <DarkFlib> it is?
[22:19] <DarkFlib> awww
[22:19] <rocketboy> in the UK
[22:20] <rocketboy> they might be changing the rules in the next year or so
[22:20] <DarkFlib> radio caroline here we come...
[22:20] <DarkFlib> :P
[22:20] <DarkFlib> launch it from outside the uk... on a boat or ship
[22:20] <icez> lol
[22:20] <rocketboy> we have been using licence exempt modules - and got a 200Km+ range
[22:21] <DarkFlib> nice... what modules?
[22:21] <icez> woah\
[22:21] <rocketboy> just 10mW 434MHz
[22:21] <DarkFlib> high gain ants?
[22:21] <rocketboy> its all in how you use them
[22:21] <rocketboy> yep - a small 1m long yagi
[22:22] <DarkFlib> that shouldn't be too bad...
[22:22] <Max00> would this be any good? http://www.lprs.co.uk/main/product.info.php?productid=24
[22:22] <DarkFlib> especially if we have multiple people in here with base stations.... base stations can uplink via the net
[22:22] <Max00> or would i be better with something custom
[22:23] <DarkFlib> ie... me in Leicester... Max00 in york...
[22:23] <Max00> :O
[22:24] <DarkFlib> just need to make sure that we are all compatible...
[22:24] <rocketboy> this is the sort of recive set up http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/nova1selected/target29.html
[22:24] <Max00> ive got a radio station
[22:24] <Max00> shoutcast
[22:24] <Max00> lol
[22:24] <icez> woh
[22:24] <Max00> so could easy send data via that
[22:24] <icez> nice antennas
[22:25] <Max00> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/nova1selected/target66.html
[22:25] <Max00> <3
[22:25] <rocketboy> yeah the LPRS module is the very one we used in pegasus III
[22:25] <DarkFlib> what altitude was that last one at?
[22:26] <DarkFlib> ~18km?
[22:26] <rocketboy> well the NOVA flight was about 30Km
[22:26] <rocketboy> and a bit more downrange
[22:27] <DarkFlib> k... how did you protect the electronics from the temp?
[22:27] <rocketboy> put them in a polystyrine box
[22:28] <DarkFlib> k... just wondered if that was enough...
[22:28] <DarkFlib> since it crossed my mind
[22:28] <rocketboy> either styrofaom or Expanded Polystyrene packing materials
[22:29] <rocketboy> well eventually it wouldn't be - but for a few hours flight it seems to be enough
[22:29] <DarkFlib> I suppose it also depends on how much heat you are disipating in your electronics
[22:30] <icez> is it part of the law to write 'Harmless Scientific Experiment' or just some idea?:)
[22:30] <rocketboy> just a good idea
[22:30] <DarkFlib> lofting a kilo or so of gear thousands of metres in the air might not be classed as 'harmless' if it fails....
[22:31] <DarkFlib> :P
[22:31] <icez> at least it has styrofoam padding to reduce the head damage :]
[22:32] <DarkFlib> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/nova1selected/target80.html <-- a thermocline I assume
[22:35] <rocketboy> no idea
[22:35] <Max00> radioboy do you have any info which i could build a cheap 434 transmitter
[22:35] <rocketboy> bbl
[22:35] <DarkFlib> k
[22:36] <rocketboy> to be honest it would be better to use a licence exempt module
[22:37] <rocketboy> it will be cheaper than making one - and it will be leagal
[22:37] <DarkFlib> the modules have a type-class license... so it doesn't need to be tested to be legal
[22:38] <rocketboy> yep
[22:38] <rocketboy> the only way I know to leagally fly a transmitter you have made is with an experimantal licence wich is £100+ a year
[22:38] <Max00> where could i get a module?
[22:39] <Max00> module = pre built ?
[22:39] <DarkFlib> max0, you've already posted at least one link in the channel to a module...
[22:39] <DarkFlib> yes...
[22:39] <Max00> ah cheers
[22:39] <rocketboy> http://www.lprs.co.uk/
[22:39] <rocketboy> or RS or Farnell or Rapid Electronics ...
[22:40] <DarkFlib> rswww.com for rs
[22:41] <Max00> http://www.lprs.co.uk/main/product.info.php?productid=152
[22:41] <rocketboy> to be squeaky clean leagal it needs to conform to this http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/communication:licence_exempt
[22:41] <Max00> Range in excess of 250m line of sight grat
[22:41] <Max00> drat*
[22:42] <DarkFlib> max0, thats with a standard antenna
[22:42] <DarkFlib> you are unlikely to use a standard one...
[22:43] <Max00> reckon its up to the job?
[22:43] <Max00> is only £9.99
[22:44] <DarkFlib> [22:20] <rocketboy> we have been using licence exempt modules - and got a 200Km+ range
[22:44] <DarkFlib> [22:21] <rocketboy> just 10mW 434MHz
[22:44] <DarkFlib> so the answer is maybe...
[22:44] <rocketboy> Like I said the range is all down to how you use them
[22:45] <DarkFlib> radio is something I know the basics of... but above that I will defer to people with more knowledge...
[22:45] <rocketboy> you need a narrowband reciver
[22:46] <rocketboy> like a Yupiteru MVT-7100
[22:46] <rocketboy> a yagi - like the one in the pictures
[22:47] <Max00> ive got a realistic pro 43
[22:47] <rocketboy> abd then you need to send the data slowly - either in morse (or similar on/off code) or slow data - I have ben using 300baud ascii rtty
[22:47] <rocketboy> sorry I have no idea about that
[22:48] <Max00> ok
[22:48] <rocketboy> I need to write this all up some time
[22:48] <rocketboy> and put it on the wiki
[22:48] <Max00> :)
[22:48] <DarkFlib> if you have an on board computer you can probably send highly compressed images along with telemetry just so you can see what is going on...
[22:48] <DarkFlib> even at 300baud...
[22:49] <rocketboy> Just nedd to finish and fly my payload 1st
[22:49] <DarkFlib> used to browse BBSs at 1200...
[22:49] <DarkFlib> and that was usable if you knew what you were doing
[22:50] <rocketboy> yeah since all we have been sending back is the position - there isn't much data
[22:51] <rocketboy> - ther is room to send back sensor readings - but I wouldn't be trying pictures or video ;-)
[22:51] <DarkFlib> I'd probably send position, temp and a seperate altimeter was on board barometric data...
[22:51] <rocketboy> yeah no probs
[22:51] <rocketboy> anyway goot go now
[22:51] <rocketboy> bbl
[22:51] <Max00> cya
[22:51] <DarkFlib> could possibly packetise some low quality images and send them back... maybe 320x240 or something in 8bit colour
[22:52] <DarkFlib> thats about 68k of raw data... iirc
[22:53] <Max00> http://www.lprs.co.uk/main/product.info.php?productid=259
[22:53] <Max00> i think we could have a winner
[22:54] <DarkFlib> you probably don't actually need a transceiver unless you are trying to control it...
[22:54] <Max00> nope just tx
[22:54] <DarkFlib> you can pre-program a mission profile and some constraints...
[22:54] <Max00> thats abit advanced at this stage
[22:54] <Max00> heh
[22:54] <DarkFlib> so don't go out side of the uk... try not to land in a city... etc
[22:55] <DarkFlib> not really...
[22:55] <Max00> ive coaded a cutdown system
[22:55] <DarkFlib> you know you rough direction... and speed... so you can extrapolate...
[22:55] <Max00> works on a LAT and LON square
[22:55] <Max00> if it goes out of the squaare cuts down
[22:56] <DarkFlib> you could also have basic control of altitude by venting...
[22:56] <DarkFlib> probably fuzzy logic would work well there...
[22:56] <Max00> easy to talk the talk, but walk the walk?
[22:57] <Max00> i think it would be very advanced and hard to set up
[22:57] <DarkFlib> not especially...
[22:57] <Max00> and would add extra weight etc
[22:57] <DarkFlib> you code it on two levels...
[22:57] <DarkFlib> low level... open valve, close valve etc...
[22:58] <DarkFlib> then high level... to abstract it out...
[22:58] <DarkFlib> if I was a java programmer I'd have already made 20 inherited classes so far...
[22:58] <DarkFlib> :P
[22:59] <DarkFlib> fuzzy logic is fairly trivial to code tho... you just need to have basic comparison operators and addition/subtraction
[23:00] <DarkFlib> if you work on normal logic... a value can be 0 or 1...
[23:00] <DarkFlib> with fuzzy logic it can also be anything in between... its actually a superset of normal logic
[23:00] <DarkFlib> so not is 1 - value...
[23:01] <DarkFlib> or is max(value1,value2)
[23:01] <DarkFlib> and is min(value1,value2) iirc
[23:01] <DarkFlib> these still work the same way with normal logic values...
[23:02] <Max00> yeah i understand the theroy but too much to go wrong in my mind
[23:02] <DarkFlib> anyway... thats probably the way I'd go... it doesn't mean to say other people need to do the same...
[23:02] <Max00> its a good idea
[23:06] <DarkFlib> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00600b.pdf
[23:07] <DarkFlib> that goes through the basics of fuzzy logic on a pic chip using an example
[23:07] <DarkFlib> but it doesn't need to be that complex
[23:19] rocketboy (n=steve@217.47.75.133) left irc: "Leaving"
[23:23] <DarkFlib> Max00, I think you might be right about that module...
[23:23] <DarkFlib> gives a little more headroom...
[23:23] <Max00> does look good doesnt it
[23:24] <DarkFlib> and if you are using something that is packetised then you should be able to recover from basic errors if you need to...
[23:24] <DarkFlib> it seems that it can take any bitstream (upto 15kbit) and will send it out...
[23:25] <DarkFlib> although you will want to use as low a rate as possible to be able to recover from minor glitches (so 300bps)
[23:25] <DarkFlib> but you'll also want to go as fast as possible to send any extra data like images etc...
[23:26] <Max00> im not sendin pics
[23:26] <Max00> not yet
[23:26] <DarkFlib> I'd probably say 1200bps is best compromise...
[23:26] <Max00> id prob go slow and simple
[23:26] <Max00> so battry lasts
[23:27] <DarkFlib> to be honest, the battery isn't gonna be impacted by the module sending speed... although you could probably underclock the main cpu if you are desperate...
[23:27] LaurenceB (n=laurence@host86-141-79-137.range86-141.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[23:28] <LaurenceB> hi all
[23:28] <DarkFlib> but since the envelope material is so cheap... I'd probably just use a slightly bigger battery and increase the volume a fraction
[23:28] <DarkFlib> hey LaurenceB
[23:28] <LaurenceB> have video working on MiHAB3
[23:28] <DarkFlib> cool...
[23:29] <LaurenceB> but only 256mb card, will invest in a bigger one
[23:29] <DarkFlib> what you using on it? small camera module and brooktree capture board?
[23:29] <LaurenceB> just a digital camera !
[23:29] <DarkFlib> ahh
[23:29] <LaurenceB> whats a brooktree capture thing
[23:30] <DarkFlib> bt848 chipset... as seen on most of the embeded capture boards (pc104 etc)
[23:30] <LaurenceB> expensive?
[23:30] <DarkFlib> not especially...
[23:30] <LaurenceB> does it have pal input?
[23:31] <DarkFlib> yes... standard composite
[23:31] <LaurenceB> my camera is avr powered!
[23:31] <DarkFlib> so also have s-video or component...
[23:31] <DarkFlib> some*
[23:32] <LaurenceB> I can't really believe it it was sold for about £70 in the shops and its an avr and jpeg/mpeg compression chip
[23:33] <DarkFlib> I was looking at some of the lesser know haupagge boards the other day...
[23:33] <DarkFlib> going for insanely low prices
[23:34] <LaurenceB> are you in the uk darkflib?
[23:34] <DarkFlib> yup... leicester
[23:34] <DarkFlib> you?
[23:34] <LaurenceB> we might be launching next weekend from near cambridge
[23:34] <LaurenceB> Derbyshire
[23:34] <DarkFlib> derbyshire isn't near cambridge...
[23:34] <DarkFlib> :P
[23:35] <DarkFlib> ones southeast from me... the other is north
[23:35] <Max00> heh
[23:35] <LaurenceB> you're welcome to come along to the launch if it goes ahead
[23:35] <DarkFlib> cool, thnx
[23:36] <LaurenceB> heh max00
[23:36] <Max00> hey LaurenceB
[23:36] <LaurenceB> thanks for the help with gpio's
[23:36] <Max00> np
[23:36] <Max00> where u up till 5 as well?
[23:37] <DarkFlib> http://www.ampltd.com/prod/mtv.html <-- its pc104, basicly a different physical format isa bus...
[23:37] <DarkFlib> thats similar to the one I had on my wearable...
[23:38] <Max00> i thought frame grapers where poo?
[23:38] <DarkFlib> depends what the app is...
[23:39] <LaurenceB> max00 yes, I went to bed to be awakened by the sound of gpio operated buzzers!
[23:39] <Max00> lol
[23:39] <LaurenceB> I wanted to use spectrumlab to recieve messages
[23:39] <DarkFlib> it makes more sense on long duration flights to have frame grabbers connected to a small embedded pc and hd than a stills camera that will fill up in the first few hours
[23:39] <LaurenceB> but it was too hard to interpret
[23:40] <LaurenceB> oh well I can't stay around, I need to catch up on some revision cya
[23:40] <DarkFlib> and if you have a bidirectional data link you can preview an image and then take a snap of it at higher res...
[23:40] <DarkFlib> later LaurenceB
[23:41] <Max00> hehe DarkFlib
[23:41] <Max00> u crazy
[23:41] <DarkFlib> yup
[23:41] <Max00> its a good idea
[23:41] <DarkFlib> everything on these things is a matter of trade-offs...
[23:42] <DarkFlib> so work on the restrictions you know and work around them
[23:42] <Max00> cash/time
[23:42] <Max00> ;)
[23:42] LaurenceB (n=laurence@host86-141-79-137.range86-141.btcentralplus.com) left irc:
[23:43] <DarkFlib> then get some time from someone else... volenteers!
[23:43] <DarkFlib> :P
[23:43] <DarkFlib> make it a group project
[23:43] <DarkFlib> time is less an issue for me... but cash is...
[23:46] <DarkFlib> hmmm... gonna be house sitting on wednesday... might be an ideal time to start building a solar balloon
[23:47] <DarkFlib> hopefully it wont be windy
[23:47] <Max00> :)
[00:00] --- Tue Jan 9 2007