highaltitude.log.20060711

[00:02] <jcoxon> oooo its exciting - so glad i have a launch date now
[00:08] <jcoxon> night all
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[04:18] <Professor> evenin
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[15:14] <macfreak4> zeus has spoken.
[15:14] <macfreak4> :P
[15:15] <Weiss> :D
[15:26] <Tiger^> :)
[15:26] <Tiger^> sweet
[15:26] <Tiger^> hope there'll be live coverage ;P
[15:27] <Tiger^> and hope it'll not be on BBC *evil grin*
[15:33] <macfreak4> lol
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[16:10] <jcoxon> hey guys
[16:10] <jcoxon> have any of you built a yagi antenna before?
[16:12] <jcoxon> macfreak4? Tiger^ ?
[16:15] <macfreak4> hey
[16:15] <macfreak4> no
[16:15] <macfreak4> the only antenna i've built is a little j-pole ;)
[16:18] <jcoxon> okay thanks macfreak4
[16:20] <macfreak4> is it for the data radio you're using?
[16:20] <macfreak4> in the 900mhz band it'll be fairly small...
[16:21] <jcoxon> nah its for a 434 beacon
[16:21] <jcoxon> so its a tone
[16:21] <macfreak4> oh ok
[16:21] <macfreak4> heres one for 432mhz http://www.qsl.net/ok1cdj/dj9bv70.pdf
[16:21] <macfreak4> takes forever to load...
[16:23] <jcoxon> yeah it is :-)
[16:39] <jcoxon> be
[16:39] <jcoxon> back later
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[16:59] <macfreak4--> damnit server's down
[16:59] <macfreak4--> can't use apt-get
[16:59] <macfreak4--> :/
[16:59] <macfreak4--> ftp
[17:00] <macfreak4--> woops wrong keyboard :P
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[18:11] <jcoxon> hey rocketboy
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[18:17] <rocketboy> hi
[18:17] <phatmonkey> hey all
[18:17] <phatmonkey> euch, i'm far too tired to do anything today
[18:17] <phatmonkey> might do some coding
[18:17] <jcoxon> rocketboy, just building the cutdown circuit
[18:18] <rocketboy> I think I might make up another tracker
[18:18] <rocketboy> did you get a darlington ok
[18:18] <rocketboy> ?
[18:19] <phatmonkey> what trackers are these?
[18:19] <phatmonkey> i need to think about releasing parachutes too...
[18:19] <rocketboy> (hopfully) the 434MHz one that is going to fly in PIII
[18:19] <jcoxon> rocketboy, yup went to maplin - though forgot to get a 330 resistor and i don't have one on my spares, wil a 470R do?
[18:19] <jcoxon> rocketboy, whats the exact freq of the 434mhz module?
[18:20] <jcoxon> as nova 1 has one as well on 434.650mhz
[18:20] <rocketboy> have a look at the cutdown device (pyro release) I put on the wiki
[18:20] <phatmonkey> how are the trackers going to work? triangulating a simple beacon?
[18:21] <rocketboy> its 434.075 I think - inside the airborne band of licence exempt frequencies
[18:21] <jcoxon> so they won't interfere
[18:21] <rocketboy> it might be a good idea not to publicise it widly before the flight
[18:21] <rocketboy> I have had experiance of certain people deliberatly jamming
[18:22] <jcoxon> right well it'll be on the site - thats all
[18:22] <jcoxon> apart from that there is no publicity
[18:23] <rocketboy> well probably best not to publicise the exact time of the flight then
[18:23] <jcoxon> okay
[18:23] <rocketboy> maybe is a bit paranoid
[18:23] <jcoxon> there is a chance that we might launch on friday morning
[18:23] <rocketboy> (I am)
[18:23] <jcoxon> but i'm pushing for it to be sat and i reckon friday is to close
[18:24] <rocketboy> O - ok - let me check my work diary
[18:24] <phatmonkey> ah, morse code
[18:25] <phatmonkey> some sort of live communication would be good for my glider i suppose, any suggestions?
[18:25] <phatmonkey> is that transmitting gps coordinates by morse code?
[18:25] <jcoxon> well you could use different freqs for up and down links
[18:25] <jcoxon> yeah it is
[18:25] <phatmonkey> interesting
[18:25] <jcoxon> so perhaps use 868mhz 250mW uplink
[18:26] <jcoxon> and a 434 10mW downlink
[18:26] <rocketboy> yes
[18:26] <rocketboy> thats ok
[18:26] <rocketboy> I just blocked out Friday in my work diay - so I'm ok if its then
[18:26] <rocketboy> diary
[18:27] <jcoxon> cool
[18:27] <jcoxon> truthfully i reckon sat is best
[18:27] <jcoxon> and its an extra day
[18:28] <macfreak4--> couldn't you use something faster than morse code?
[18:28] <macfreak4--> rtty is really easy to code
[18:29] <rocketboy> yeh - I'm like that - I spent most of last wek getting ready for the rocket launch last sunday - but in the end I actually didn't finish it off until the Sunday morning - just before the launch
[18:29] <rocketboy> humm - you mean teleprinter rtty?
[18:29] <macfreak4--> well, yes, but without the teleprinter ;)
[18:30] <macfreak4--> 50 baud, 5 bit data with 1 start bit and 2 stop bits
[18:30] <macfreak4--> that's what i'm using for receiving gps coordinates
[18:30] Nick change: macfreak4-- -> macfreak4
[18:30] <rocketboy> yes- I thinks that is a good choice - a nice compact code (5 bits per charater I think) - slow data rates - ther was 50, 75, 150 and 300baud rtty
[18:31] <macfreak4> anything above 100, though, is extremely sketchy
[18:31] <macfreak4> it typically misses more than half of the characters
[18:31] <macfreak4> for accuracy's sake, between 50 and 75 is safe
[18:32] <macfreak4> bear in mind that some characters can't be transmitted as rtty, though
[18:32] <rocketboy> humm - yes and ther is rtty software arround
[18:32] <jcoxon> definitly something to look into for Peg V (thats of course if you want to help, rocketboy :-D )
[18:32] <rocketboy> count me in!
[18:32] <macfreak4> yeah here's the binary code table i used for my software -- it works for mmtty: http://home.austin.rr.com/kinghome/signpage/baudot.html
[18:33] <macfreak4> (mmtty is a freeware windows rtty package, btw)
[18:34] <macfreak4> if anything, it sounds cool, like a 50s sci fi movie or something :P
[18:34] <rocketboy> absolutly
[18:35] <rocketboy> just like my name
[18:35] <macfreak4> hehe
[18:35] <macfreak4> the linux source and binaries are on my site, if it helps at all: http://macfreak4.homeunix.com/programs/index.html
[18:37] <rocketboy> huh - trueTTY is by the same lot that do cwget (it looks the same too)
[18:38] <rocketboy> I'm using CWget to see if i can decode PIII tracker
[18:39] <rocketboy> rtty looks the next logical step
[18:40] <jcoxon> indeed
[18:42] <phatmonkey> hmm, I must do some research into all this, I know very little about radio
[18:43] <jcoxon> radio tis black magic
[18:43] <rocketboy> well some bits are
[18:43] <phatmonkey> and those cutdown devices look *fantastic*!
[18:44] <rocketboy> yet to be proved in flight - but they work well down to -35 deg C
[18:44] <phatmonkey> yeah
[18:44] <macfreak4> are you guys using the burn or cut technique?
[18:44] <phatmonkey> if they work well, we should probably make a bunch of them up and sell them to members
[18:44] <jcoxon> explosive option
[18:44] <macfreak4> hehe
[18:44] <jcoxon> no we are!
[18:45] <macfreak4> ??
[18:45] <phatmonkey> the explosive solution is always best
[18:45] <phatmonkey> macfreak4, http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/ideas:flight_support
[18:45] <rocketboy> pyro devices normally are the best for power/weight ratio
[18:45] <phatmonkey> oh, and this paper plane release has been confirmed for this november
[18:46] <rocketboy> thats why nasa use explosive bolts etc.
[18:46] <phatmonkey> we will have a spot at the huge school fair thang they do every two years
[18:46] <macfreak4> huh. well that cutdown method's new to me
[18:47] <phatmonkey> i will need to sort out some sort of radio communication by then, i'm worried i won't have a reliable glider done by then
[18:47] <phatmonkey> live communication will be *so* useful for the glider in any case
[18:48] <rocketboy> the pyro release was an original idea by me (c) rocketboy
[18:49] <rocketboy> Just be sure to wear goggles if you fire them - they shatter sharp plastic
[18:49] <rocketboy> (not too bad though)
[18:49] <macfreak4> lol cool :D
[18:49] <phatmonkey> oh *wow*
[18:50] <phatmonkey> do they support a lot of weight?
[18:50] <rocketboy> about 35Kg
[18:50] <phatmonkey> i've been thinking of ways of release chutes too
[18:50] <rocketboy> I'm sure bigger ones are possible
[18:50] <phatmonkey> maybe some sort hatch that's attached to the top of the chute
[18:51] <phatmonkey> the hatch gets blown off, then acts as a drogue to pull out the chute
[18:51] <macfreak4> oh yeah so you can have a faster descent, where the chute comes out at lower altitude to prevent a large drift
[18:51] <macfreak4> i suppose that would be very useful for you guys close to oceans!
[18:51] <jcoxon> rocketboy, while i have chord for attaching hte balloon to the payloaad could you bring along the smaller cord that you have attached to the cutdown
[18:51] <rocketboy> we call that dual deployment in rocketry
[18:52] <phatmonkey> nope, gliders don't work very well with parachutes open ;)
[18:52] <rocketboy> a small drouge is deployed at apogee - then a main chute at say 800ft
[18:53] <phatmonkey> i would be interested to see how fast an uncontrolled payload could fall without a parachute
[18:53] <phatmonkey> somebody did that before... i must find it
[18:53] <jcoxon> could be quite easily calculated
[18:54] <rocketboy> its all to do with terminal velocity - air density at that altitude and the coefficent of drag of the payload - it can be worked out relativly easilly
[18:54] <jcoxon> rocketboy, i think i'm going to test that the circuit and the cutdown before the launch
[18:55] <jcoxon> don't really trust my circuits :-p
[18:55] <macfreak4> phatmonkey: i don't see how ir thermopiles will help you tell the orientation of your glider accurately
[18:55] <macfreak4> a large amount of ir comes from the sun itself
[18:55] <macfreak4> and other things as well
[18:56] <macfreak4> it sounds sketchy...
[18:56] <phatmonkey> you would be surprised
[18:56] <rocketboy> OK - well I suggest that you test it with somthing other than the pyro-release first - and then when you are confident use one of the 2 pyroreleases i gave you
[18:56] <phatmonkey> i don't know how they work, but they do!
[18:56] <macfreak4> hmm
[18:56] <macfreak4> what about gyros?
[18:56] <jcoxon> rocketboy, okay
[18:56] <rocketboy> have you got access to an oscilloscope (storage)
[18:56] <phatmonkey> I believe these ones use wavelengths which aren't emitted by the sun... or something like that
[18:56] <macfreak4> gravitatoinal gyros
[18:56] <macfreak4> gravitational*
[18:56] <phatmonkey> IR thermopiles are *so* much more accurate and easier to implement
[18:57] <macfreak4> really?
[18:57] <phatmonkey> i'll get you the paper on it
[18:57] <phatmonkey> http://www.nongnu.org/paparazzi/ - they use only thermopiles and gps for a very successful UAV system
[18:57] <phatmonkey> http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/horizon_sensing_autopilot.pdf
[18:59] <rocketboy> what about piezo gyro
[18:59] <phatmonkey> gyros drift
[18:59] <rocketboy> humm yes
[18:59] <phatmonkey> for successful attitude information from that, you need a nasty combination of gyros and accelerometers
[18:59] <macfreak4> huh...
[18:59] <phatmonkey> doing that sort of thing is a whole project of itself
[18:59] <macfreak4> well that's neat
[19:00] <macfreak4> the ir thermopiles, that is
[19:00] <phatmonkey> yeah
[19:00] <rocketboy> what about the earths magnetic field
[19:00] <macfreak4> even worse
[19:00] <phatmonkey> not accurate enough i suppose, haven't really thought about it much
[19:00] <macfreak4> the onboard electronics would cause interference
[19:00] <phatmonkey> IR thermopiles will work nicely
[19:00] <macfreak4> are they costly?
[19:00] <rocketboy> http://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?kw=magnetic&tier1=Electronic+Components&tier2=Sensors+%26+Transducers&tier3=Strain+Gauges&tier4=CMPS03+magnetic+compass&moduleno=60297
[19:01] <rocketboy> £22
[19:01] <phatmonkey> yeah, the problem with compasses
[19:01] <macfreak4> what about lower elevations?
[19:01] <phatmonkey> is pitching about will push it waaay off
[19:01] <macfreak4> do they still work?
[19:02] <phatmonkey> ?
[19:02] <macfreak4> lower elevations
[19:02] <macfreak4> close to the ground where the horizon is not visible
[19:02] <rocketboy> jcoxon - I'll drop you an email about testing
[19:02] <phatmonkey> not sure
[19:02] <phatmonkey> i suppose it's a lil dodgy below the trees
[19:03] <phatmonkey> in the air it'll work fine
[19:04] <macfreak4> maybe that was the problem with the glider project the guy in canada built
[19:04] <macfreak4> it had trouble stabilizing almost every time
[19:04] <phatmonkey> yeah, i've been chatting to him about it
[19:04] <phatmonkey> he said he regretted not using IR thermopiles
[19:04] <macfreak4> oh kk
[19:04] <jcoxon> rocketboy, okay, hmmm silly me, didn't actually get a connector to join the cutdown circuit to the gumstix
[19:05] <jcoxon> the circuit is in the roof section of the payload
[19:05] <rocketboy> what sort of connector is it
[19:06] <jcoxon> oh it just so that i don't directly wire it up instead can easily disconnect and attach the roof section
[19:06] <jcoxon> i'll pop in to maplin tomorrow to get something
[19:07] <macfreak4> bbiab
[19:07] <macfreak4> lunchtime
[19:07] <macfreak4> ;)
[19:07] <jcoxon> ooo i've added a little feature to zeusbot
[19:07] <jcoxon> he does !countdown now
[19:07] <phatmonkey> haha
[19:07] <phatmonkey> sneaky
[19:08] <phatmonkey> i *love* my diy air conditioning
[19:08] <phatmonkey> very chilly, eee
[19:09] <phatmonkey> must blog about it, it's a great design i got from a mate
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[00:00] --- Wed Jul 12 2006