highaltitude.log.20060429

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[00:24] <macfreak4> hello
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[01:45] <defy> hey guys
[01:45] <macfreak4> hey
[01:45] <defy> hey macfreak4, i managed to get rtty working over the airwaves yesterday
[01:45] <macfreak4> oh sweet!
[01:45] <macfreak4> what band are you going to be using?
[01:46] <defy> yea i found an old 400mhz frs radio so i set my ham radio to transmit, and held the frs up to my laptops mic input running mmtty and it decoded the messages perfectly
[01:46] <defy> unfortunately there dont seem to be any linux transmitting programs that don't require X windows
[01:46] <macfreak4> oh
[01:46] <macfreak4> :(
[01:47] <defy> for rtty..but it prompted me to start playing with packet again, and I managed to get ax.25 working (for the first time, i've tried many times before and failed) using my sound card
[01:47] <macfreak4> oh so ur using some kind of tnc emulation then?
[01:47] <defy> yeah
[01:47] <macfreak4> oh
[01:47] <defy> i never really understood the setup before
[01:47] <defy> but after playing with rtty yesterday, and getting that to work, it all kind of clicked
[01:48] <macfreak4> no kidding!
[01:48] <macfreak4> that happened to me too :)
[01:48] <defy> hehe
[01:48] <defy> so yea...it was pretty cool, its the first time i've managed to transmit data over amature radio
[01:49] <macfreak4> thats neat
[01:49] <macfreak4> yea im bidding on a scanner right now
[01:49] <macfreak4> it ends in 2 days
[01:49] <defy> i really should go get my license before i start transmitting high watts though :P
[01:49] <defy> sweet
[01:49] <macfreak4> oh lol
[01:49] <defy> that rtty would be perfect if i was using all windows
[01:50] <macfreak4> yea
[01:50] <macfreak4> although you could program your own transmitter program
[01:50] <defy> there was only one command line linux program i could find that did rtty and it only received, heh
[01:50] <macfreak4> oh
[01:50] <defy> yea..i thought about that
[01:51] <macfreak4> all you need to do is produce two different tones with the sound card
[01:51] <defy> using one of the libraries from one of the graphical programs to create a command line one could be a possability
[01:51] <macfreak4> yea
[01:51] <defy> what kind of scanner are you getting?
[01:52] <macfreak4> oh its a 16-channel programmable uhf/vhf pro-30
[01:53] <macfreak4> really cheap: currently 20$ w/ shipping
[01:53] <macfreak4> (USD)
[01:54] <defy> hah sweet
[02:00] <macfreak4> moment of truth
[02:00] <macfreak4> gasp
[02:11] <macfreak4> yay
[02:11] <macfreak4> :D
[02:15] <defy> hehe
[02:16] <macfreak4> finishing off my 8-bit ADC
[02:19] <defy> making one?
[02:20] <macfreak4> ya
[02:20] <macfreak4> serial 2400 baud using a PIC
[02:24] <defy> cool
[03:10] <macfreak4> now im going to put the sensors in the freezer
[03:10] <macfreak4> hehe
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[09:24] <jcoxon> morning all
[09:26] <malgar> jcoxon, !
[09:26] <malgar> launched
[09:26] <malgar> :)
[09:26] <malgar> but there aren't news about landing
[09:27] <jcoxon> yay
[09:28] <jcoxon> oh well
[09:28] <jcoxon> i'll take time
[09:28] <jcoxon> it'll*
[09:28] <jcoxon> had a 2 and 1/2 hour meeting yesterday about balloons
[09:28] <jcoxon> started designing the payload for nova 1
[09:28] <jcoxon> and finally got an aim for the pegasus missions
[09:29] <malgar> explain better!
[09:29] <jcoxon> right
[09:30] <jcoxon> well nova is my university high altitude project
[09:30] <jcoxon> and we are working towards a long duration geosynchronus flight
[09:30] <jcoxon> while for pegasus (my own continuing side branch) I'm going for height
[09:30] <jcoxon> altitude*
[09:31] <jcoxon> and crazy "soviet" testing of new ideas
[09:32] <malgar> wow! but nova project is born befor or later pegasus?
[09:32] <jcoxon> after pegasus
[09:32] <jcoxon> its just starting now
[09:33] <jcoxon> so of us have a grant for 10 weeks this summer to work on it
[09:33] <malgar> you mean that pegasus gave the input for this larger project?
[09:34] <jcoxon> sort of
[09:34] <jcoxon> it was one of the examples they orignally found when researching possible projects
[09:34] <malgar> how do you think to have a geosynchronus flight?
[09:34] <jcoxon> and then they realise i was actually at the uni
[09:34] <jcoxon> work on a method of propulsion
[09:34] <jcoxon> e.g. large, highly efficient propellors
[09:34] <jcoxon> or perhaps compressed air
[09:35] <malgar> uh that's very complex!
[09:36] <malgar> and about the soviet testing? :) i love the soviet testing :P
[09:36] <jcoxon> well we do have 10 weeks to work on it
[09:37] <jcoxon> and also the massive influence/resources of cambridge university engineering department
[09:37] <jcoxon> e.g a vacuum chamber to potentially test in
[09:37] <jcoxon> ooo soviet testing
[09:37] <jcoxon> got a new crazy idea for tracking
[09:38] <malgar> explain it! :)
[09:38] <jcoxon> hehe
[09:38] <jcoxon> well i'm for pegasus III
[09:39] <jcoxon> i'm going to have a second payload containing just a mobile phone and parachute
[09:39] <jcoxon> at 30,000ft this is released via a cutdown device
[09:39] <jcoxon> it drops down
[09:39] <jcoxon> and then when it lands i can use gsm trackers to get within a mile of it
[09:40] <jcoxon> what it allows me to calculate is:
[09:40] <jcoxon> direction of flight
[09:40] <jcoxon> if the payload has reached 30,000ft
[09:40] <malgar> woooow
[09:40] <malgar> exciting!
[09:40] <jcoxon> approx arrivaly time of arriving at 30,000ft
[09:41] <jcoxon> therefore approx ascent
[09:41] <jcoxon> rate
[09:41] <jcoxon> so with one bit of data we can calculate how the flight it going
[09:42] <malgar> one question, beside the helium how much cost pegasus I & II?
[09:43] <malgar> (i have to start to plan how much i can spend for my project)
[09:43] <jcoxon> well it depends what approach you take
[09:43] <jcoxon> yesterday i saw a working PIC prototype
[09:44] <jcoxon> and that is seriously cheap - no need for a gumstix as a flight computer
[09:45] <malgar> well.. pic programming isn't the easiest thing in the world... i downloaded a tutorial times ago and my understending was nothing
[09:47] <jcoxon> yeah
[09:47] <jcoxon> nova 1 is going to use a pic for simpliesty and that the one of the lead developers is a big fan
[09:47] <malgar> eh
[09:47] <jcoxon> though he agrees that later on we are going to need gumstixs
[09:48] <jcoxon> i'm going to stick with gumstix
[09:48] <jcoxon> s
[09:51] <malgar> is there a science mission or technological applications for nova 1 or is it just to try to do something really hard?
[09:51] <jcoxon> its a technological application
[09:51] <jcoxon> working out ways it can be done
[09:52] <jcoxon> though it could become a science mission
[09:53] <malgar> uhm how did you choose the name of your mission, pegasus? and nova?
[09:54] <malgar> well, pegasus is pretty clear
[09:56] <malgar> for my project(s) i'll try to use names of the local mythology and legends
[09:56] <malgar> :)
[10:15] <jcoxon> well nasa seem to choose mythology
[10:16] <jcoxon> and pegasus is a flying horse
[10:57] <jcoxon> bbl
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[14:13] <macfreak4> hey
[14:13] <jcoxon> hey macfreak4
[14:14] <macfreak4> *just woke up*
[14:15] <jcoxon> hehe
[14:15] <jcoxon> its the afternoon here
[14:15] <macfreak4> o
[14:15] <macfreak4> 8:13AM
[14:15] <jcoxon> 2:18pm
[14:15] <jcoxon> my clock is slightly fast
[14:15] <icez> woh
[14:15] <icez> 6:15 here
[14:15] <icez> :/
[14:15] <macfreak4> pm?
[14:16] <icez> am
[14:16] <macfreak4> oh
[14:16] <macfreak4> ur in arizona right?
[14:16] <icez> yup
[14:16] <macfreak4> or was that...
[14:16] <macfreak4> o
[14:16] <macfreak4> ok
[14:16] <macfreak4> well i did some temperature tests with my payload in the freezer last night
[14:16] <jcoxon> and...
[14:17] <macfreak4> and found out that the temp sensors aren't linear at all
[14:17] <macfreak4> so something's wrong
[14:17] <macfreak4> because that's one of the main features of the sensors
[14:17] <macfreak4> that they're linear
[14:17] <jcoxon> how odd
[14:17] <macfreak4> yea
[14:18] <macfreak4> and my adc is inverted; as voltage goes up, its value goes down
[14:18] <macfreak4> which is strange as well
[14:18] <macfreak4> soo i have some work to do
[14:18] <macfreak4> lol
[14:18] <jcoxon> i'm still trying to work out how to read from the a/d on my gumstix
[14:18] <jcoxon> haven't really put much effort into it yet :-D
[14:18] <macfreak4> o lol
[14:19] <jcoxon> spent yesterday evening working on designs for the nova 1 payload
[14:20] <macfreak4> ya i read your convo
[14:20] <macfreak4> sounds interesting
[14:20] <jcoxon> going to be a cube with swapable faces which contain different experiments
[14:20] <icez> cool
[14:20] <jcoxon> such as cameras, sensor suites, hamsters...
[14:21] <macfreak4> with geosynchronous "orbit" you could then make a way to release some helium until it becomes neutrally buyouant
[14:21] <jcoxon> yeah
[14:21] <macfreak4> then it would stay in the same spot for a long time making it useful for telecommunications and such
[14:21] <jcoxon> we are going to work on a valve for totex balloons
[14:21] <jcoxon> exactly
[14:21] <jcoxon> the potential application is massive
[14:22] <macfreak4> well here i believe the law is that the balloon may not become neutrally buoyant and must cut down automatically if that happens
[14:22] <macfreak4> i may be wrong i'll have to double check but...
[14:22] <jcoxon> hmmm, i'm not sure that any such laws exist here
[14:22] <jcoxon> though will require research
[14:22] <macfreak4> kk
[14:47] <macfreak4> cya
[14:47] <jcoxon> bye
[14:47] <macfreak4> good luck on nova 1 :D
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[17:40] <HenryHallam> Hi all
[17:40] <HenryHallam> James, is Sunday ok with you for the PIC thing?
[17:42] Nick change: HenryHallam -> HenryHallam|brb
[18:16] <jcoxon> hey HenryHallam|brb
[18:16] <jcoxon> welcome to #highaltitude
[18:16] <jcoxon> yeah i can do sunday
[19:13] <HenryHallam|brb> ok great
[19:13] <HenryHallam|brb> I'm just ordering a few chips for the tracker board, I love free samples
[19:13] Nick change: HenryHallam|brb -> HenryHallam
[19:19] <jcoxon> hehe
[19:19] <jcoxon> cool
[19:19] <jcoxon> right i've got to go to supper
[19:19] <jcoxon> will be back later
[19:38] <malgar> did you see that google maps now has the europe streets?
[19:40] <jcoxon> nope
[19:40] <jcoxon> cool
[19:41] <jcoxon> oh i'm back :-p
[19:41] <jcoxon> malgar, HenryHallam is on the nova team
[19:42] <malgar> woow
[19:43] <jcoxon> he's the pic expert - also has a plane so we are going to use it to do aerial tracking for the beacon once its landed
[19:44] <malgar> really woow!
[19:45] <malgar> wonderful
[19:45] <malgar> keep me always updated
[19:45] <malgar> :)
[19:45] <jcoxon> of course
[19:45] <jcoxon> i've worked out a way to auto feed my phone gps coordinates into irc :-D
[19:46] <jcoxon> little script that checks for phone messages via a cable then sends it to irc
[19:46] <malgar> cool
[19:46] <jcoxon> so you can follow on google maps
[19:46] <jcoxon> (does require internet access of course)
[19:46] <malgar> eheh
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[19:52] <jcoxon> HenryHallam, how many people are you expecting at the PIC masterclass?
[20:07] <HenryHallam> heh, that IRC tracker sounds pretty cool
[20:08] <jcoxon> over the easter i wrote an graphical irc client for a hobby operating system
[20:08] <HenryHallam> not sure yet - confirmed so far are you, Carl, Sal and Dan
[20:08] <jcoxon> it was terrible (my first proper program) but did work
[20:08] <HenryHallam> impressive
[20:08] <jcoxon> and i now know the ins and out of IRC
[20:09] <HenryHallam> you could have it not only print the coordinates but also look up towns/villages near where it is, and post their names
[20:09] <jcoxon> true
[20:10] <jcoxon> or have it start constructing a map on mapbuilder
[20:10] <HenryHallam> is that the engine that all those hacked-google-maps sites use?
[20:11] <jcoxon> one of them
[20:11] <jcoxon> its the one which i have my pegasus I route on
[20:11] <HenryHallam> sounds pretty handy
[20:11] <jcoxon> need to update my site today with my latest updates
[20:12] <HenryHallam> do you have Google Earth? there are a couple of sites which have scripts to convert various different formats of GPS logs into 3d tracks on that, it looks really good
[20:12] <jcoxon> yeah, i have the mac version
[20:12] <jcoxon> also a cool idea
[20:12] <jcoxon> as we could put in the altitude as well
[20:12] <HenryHallam> yes exactly
[20:12] <jcoxon> and have it follow the path, perhaps compare down camera pictures
[20:12] <HenryHallam> good idea
[20:13] <jcoxon> certainly a job for someone
[20:13] <jcoxon> thinking perhaps that carl needs to add a wiki
[20:13] <jcoxon> for jobs and ideas
[20:13] <HenryHallam> makes sense
[20:13] <jcoxon> to the website that is
[20:13] <HenryHallam> is the site back up yet?
[20:14] <jcoxon> he's moving it
[20:14] <HenryHallam> oh and do you have the forum address?
[20:14] <jcoxon> yup
[20:14] <jcoxon> http://s3.phpbbforfree.com/forums/novaproject.html
[20:14] <HenryHallam> cheers
[20:14] <jcoxon> oh Henry go to http://ukhas.org.uk and sign up :-D
[20:16] <HenryHallam> done
[20:16] <jcoxon> cool
[20:16] <HenryHallam> is that your site?
[20:16] <jcoxon> well its mine and phatmonkeys (a regular)
[20:17] <jcoxon> trying to put together lots of info
[20:17] <jcoxon> but its very new
[20:17] <jcoxon> (needs a better theme!)
[20:17] <HenryHallam> looks pretty good, does that use a packaged CMS?
[20:17] <jcoxon> yup
[20:17] <jcoxon> drupal
[20:18] <jcoxon> reckon it'll be good way of coordinating launches
[20:18] <jcoxon> perhaps advertising launches as well
[20:19] <HenryHallam> sure
[20:19] <HenryHallam> you need a certain critical mass of members before people will really get involved with the site though
[20:19] <jcoxon> of course
[20:20] <jcoxon> i've been telling people to sign up
[20:20] <jcoxon> should really get all of the nova group to
[20:20] <jcoxon> it'll take time
[20:20] <jcoxon> and once we start getting successful launches it'll pick up
[20:29] <HenryHallam> you know the model rocket beacon?
[20:29] <jcoxon> yup
[20:30] <HenryHallam> if it's 250mW then I think from the air we should be able to pick it up from about a 3 mile radius
[20:30] <jcoxon> well with purely gsm module tracking service i can get you to within a mile
[20:30] <jcoxon> http://www.fly-by-night-aerospace.co.uk/what.asp?who=Fly-By-Night-Aerospace
[20:31] <jcoxon> this si the latest info from ofcom
[20:31] <HenryHallam> great
[20:31] <HenryHallam> conveniently the planes all have ADF (auto direction finder) which means there's a little needle that points to any AM radio transmitter when you put the frequency in
[20:32] <jcoxon> oooo
[20:32] <jcoxon> well then, i don't see why you just direct us to the site, and we move in from the ground
[20:32] <HenryHallam> yep
[20:33] <jcoxon> we seriously need someone in charge of logistics
[20:33] <HenryHallam> so we should have a pretty good backup in the event that the mobile can't get an SMS out for some reason
[20:33] <HenryHallam> yes
[20:33] <HenryHallam> I suggested to Carl that he give someone that job
[20:33] <HenryHallam> because there's a lot to organise
[20:33] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:33] <jcoxon> but i'm thinking about the summer
[20:34] <jcoxon> i don't think its unreasonble to do up to 2 launches a week
[20:34] <jcoxon> and not so many people will be around
[20:35] <HenryHallam> do you think we should try to put up an interesting payload for every one of those launches? or just to build experience
[20:35] <HenryHallam> and with that kind of frequency you have to expect to lose a few into the sea / other inaccessible areas
[20:36] <HenryHallam> so it requires a bit of a stepup in funding to replace lost/broken parts
[20:36] <jcoxon> well firstly i think we shouldn't launch just to launch
[20:36] <jcoxon> but keep an eye on the weather
[20:36] <jcoxon> i don't think interesting payloads should go up every time
[20:36] <jcoxon> we are working towards an aim, so experience/testing new ideas are important
[20:37] <HenryHallam> right
[20:37] <HenryHallam> test out the various multiballoon ideas etc
[20:37] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:37] <jcoxon> and seeing the differnce between night and day
[20:38] <jcoxon> the first meeting this term we sort of came to the conclusion that the aim of hte summer was to get a payload up for 5 days
[20:38] <jcoxon> i feel with 10 weeks we will have a lot of time
[20:38] <jcoxon> and the lack of a degree to do will help a lot
[20:38] <HenryHallam> of course
[20:39] <HenryHallam> I think getting one up for 5 days is definitely achievable but getting it to stay over England for all that time is going to be a lot harder
[20:39] <HenryHallam> maybe impossible
[20:39] <jcoxon> perhaps
[20:39] <jcoxon> we need to explore what hte winds are like up there
[20:39] <HenryHallam> right
[20:39] <jcoxon> there isn't any immediate data i can find on winds in the stratosphere
[20:40] <HenryHallam> I don't expect much experimental research has been done into it
[20:40] <jcoxon> but i guess there must be some movement as where there is variations in temeperature there is wind
[20:40] <HenryHallam> hey maybe we could publish a paper :D
[20:40] <jcoxon> well perhaps
[20:40] <jcoxon> :-D
[20:40] <jcoxon> from this: http://www.mapbuilder.net/UserMap.php?UserName=jamescoxon&Map=pegasus1
[20:41] <jcoxon> it seems like it'll stay put
[20:41] <jcoxon> but will ofcourse need correctional propulsion
[20:41] <jcoxon> and there is also the issue of communication
[20:42] <jcoxon> as much as i would love it to be autonomous
[20:46] <HenryHallam> the license issue has to be solvable, it just has to be
[20:46] <jcoxon> well if we can keep it "geostationary"
[20:46] <jcoxon> we could use radio modems
[20:46] <HenryHallam> tightbeam 802.11b?
[20:46] phatmonkey (n=phatmonk@65.98.2.81.in-addr.arpa) joined #highaltitude.
[20:46] <jcoxon> they would be quite suitable
[20:46] <jcoxon> hey phatmonkey
[20:46] <HenryHallam> Hi
[20:46] <phatmonkey> hey
[20:47] <phatmonkey> just been thinking through rockets
[20:47] <jcoxon> hehe
[20:47] <phatmonkey> what we need to do for an initial experiment
[20:47] <phatmonkey> is to get a /small/ rocket
[20:47] <phatmonkey> test it on the ground, measure the altitude
[20:47] <phatmonkey> test it off a platform (which can be small), measure the altitude
[20:47] <phatmonkey> see what sort of difference we get
[20:48] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:48] <HenryHallam> that sounds worth doing
[20:48] <jcoxon> phatmonkey, HenryHallam is on the nova team
[20:48] <jcoxon> at cambrideg
[20:48] <jcoxon> cambrige*
[20:48] <HenryHallam> you can optimise the nozzle for vacuum operation
[20:48] <phatmonkey> I suspect we won't get a huge difference, since the gravity is not much less, but I don't know how much air resistance affects it
[20:48] <jcoxon> HenryHallam, phatmonkey is working on a high altitude glider
[20:48] <phatmonkey> ah, hi!
[20:48] <HenryHallam> oh way cool
[20:48] <phatmonkey> it would be nice if we get a huge difference!
[20:48] <phatmonkey> first amateur mission to the moon ;)
[20:48] <HenryHallam> yeah gravity effects are minimal but I would expect drag to be quite noticeable
[20:49] <HenryHallam> heh
[20:49] <jcoxon> well robthomas was saying that he could quite easily put together a tublaunching rocket
[20:49] <jcoxon> for pegasus IV or something
[20:49] <phatmonkey> tublaunching?
[20:49] <jcoxon> tube launching 8
[20:49] <jcoxon> *
[20:49] <jcoxon> oops
[20:50] <HenryHallam> I think for an orbital rocket the systems complexity involved in having a balloon capable of 200+ tonne payload isn't worth the savings of about 5-10% propellants that you get from a high altitude platform... but for *sounding* rockets which just go up and come down it's well worth doing
[20:50] <HenryHallam> especially for amateurs
[20:50] <jcoxon> definitly
[20:50] <jcoxon> and its fun!
[20:50] <HenryHallam> yeah
[20:51] <HenryHallam> With the geostat balloon, I think for correctional propulsion it needs more of an airship configuration or you'll be using lots of power to overcome drag
[20:51] <jcoxon> hmmm yeah
[20:52] <phatmonkey> although it's a rather remote idea, I'm sure there's some clever cheap way to send something into space
[20:52] <HenryHallam> (should definitely be propellors not jets, they're about 10 times as efficient at that sort of speed)
[20:52] <jcoxon> right
[20:52] <jcoxon> but they are going to be big i guess
[20:52] <jcoxon> and they have to come down again
[20:53] <HenryHallam> my favourite space launch method was when they tested a nuke in a deep hole in the ground, and had a 20 tonne "manhole cover" on top which disappeared doing about 10km/sec
[20:53] <jcoxon> haha
[20:53] <phatmonkey> haha
[20:54] <phatmonkey> woah, deadly
[20:54] <HenryHallam> linking in with the cheap space launch thing, would be interesting to cooperate with the space elevator guys
[20:54] <HenryHallam> they're using balloons to lift their test cables at the moment
[20:54] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:55] <HenryHallam> if you can do that to say 80,000ft then that also solves the position issue
[20:57] <phatmonkey> I'm still looking around for a reasonably large glider, made out of depron foam or something
[20:58] <phatmonkey> that will just fall gracefully
[20:58] <phatmonkey> I will ask on rcgroups.com - they'll know
[20:59] <HenryHallam> hm
[21:00] <HenryHallam> the aerodynamics are way different up there
[21:01] <phatmonkey> yes
[21:01] <phatmonkey> doesn't really matter if it just tumbles for a bit until the air gets thicker
[21:01] <HenryHallam> that's why aeroplanes have a service ceiling, not just because the engines can't get any more oxygen... something happens like the equivalent stall airspeed increases but the structural safe speed doesn't
[21:02] <HenryHallam> the problem is that if it goes faster than structural safe speed it might rip apart
[21:02] <phatmonkey> http://geocities.com/xsurfergroup/jumbowg.html - certainly not the sort of glider, but the right sort of construction
[21:02] <phatmonkey> yeah
[21:02] <phatmonkey> I suppose we need something stable, but very strong
[21:02] <HenryHallam> well that kind of thing looks simple enough that it doesn't matter if you break a few
[21:03] <phatmonkey> can't really do anything at the moment, far too much work
[21:03] <phatmonkey> I'll have to think more about it during the summer
[21:03] <HenryHallam> have you talked to any of the other guys who've built autonomous balloon gliders?
[21:03] <phatmonkey> yes, exactly, that's the idea - it doesn't matter if it falls apart
[21:03] <phatmonkey> yes, art from the original high altitude glider
[21:03] <phatmonkey> quite a bit, chatted about all sorts of problems
[21:04] <phatmonkey> stabilisation in particular
[21:04] <phatmonkey> I think he overcomplicated quite a bit
[21:04] <jcoxon> HenryHallam, we need some of these :-D
[21:04] <phatmonkey> I'm just heading for a very stable glider that will descend without any intervention
[21:04] <jcoxon> http://www.bfioptilas.co.uk/OEM_Modules-g5659.htm
[21:04] <phatmonkey> well, plus left and right rudder
[21:05] <HenryHallam> most things will descend without intervention if you drop them from a balloon ;)
[21:05] <phatmonkey> gracefully :P
[21:06] <HenryHallam> those modules look quite nice
[21:07] <jcoxon> i reckon the range is on the ground
[21:07] <phatmonkey> sigh, a google search for depron glider brings up my blog
[21:07] <jcoxon> so in the air perhaps even further
[21:07] <jcoxon> hehe
[21:07] <HenryHallam> well you know how they over-quote these things
[21:07] <HenryHallam> but a directional antenna will work wonders
[21:07] <jcoxon> i don't see why we can't get some :-D
[21:07] <HenryHallam> plus you can put a really huge antenna on the ground, with lots o' gain
[21:08] <HenryHallam> and if you know the GPS position you can calculate where to point it
[21:08] <jcoxon> yeah
[21:08] <jcoxon> brb
[21:08] <HenryHallam> are these ones license-free?
[21:09] <phatmonkey> I think I will get a load of 6mm depron and just experiment with designs
[21:09] <HenryHallam> drop them out of windows
[21:09] <phatmonkey> yes
[21:09] <HenryHallam> (the gliders not the radio modules)
[21:09] <phatmonkey> hehe
[21:10] <phatmonkey> I might find some of those toy free flight gliders
[21:10] <phatmonkey> and copy the designs
[21:10] <phatmonkey> they have flat wings, and tend to go in a straight line in a stable manner
[21:10] <phatmonkey> not sure how they'll scale up though!
[21:11] <jcoxon> HenryHallam, i think they are
[21:13] <jcoxon> the pdf says they are
[21:13] <HenryHallam> worth a try
[21:13] <HenryHallam> not on nova 1 though
[21:13] <HenryHallam> they look expensive for when the parachute falls off :p
[21:13] <jcoxon> hehe of course
[21:13] <phatmonkey> http://f4bscale.worldonline.co.uk/hand.htm - eee, this sort of thing
[21:13] <jcoxon> but soon
[21:15] <HenryHallam> yeah
[21:15] <jcoxon> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PACIFIC-CREST-RADIO-MODEM-SYSTEM-RFM96-BRAND-NEW_W0QQitemZ7614300574QQcategoryZ4669QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[21:15] <jcoxon> shall i email to enquire costs?
[21:16] <HenryHallam> daaaaamn
[21:16] <HenryHallam> 35W
[21:16] <HenryHallam> bastard ofcomm
[21:16] <jcoxon> ?
[21:16] <HenryHallam> from the picture on that ebay auction
[21:17] <HenryHallam> it's a 35 watt trans(ceiver?)
[21:17] <HenryHallam> that would sure as hell get through
[21:17] <jcoxon> i think there are 2
[21:17] <jcoxon> didn't notice that
[21:17] <jcoxon> can't be legal then
[21:17] <HenryHallam> well the bid price will go up but if we can get that for under a couple of hundred quid it's well worth it
[21:18] <HenryHallam> yeah, not legal yet but if we can get a license...
[21:18] <jcoxon> i think its a transmitter and reciever
[21:18] <jcoxon> small one in box
[21:18] <HenryHallam> that's something that would be really ideal to have for a long duration, long distance project
[21:18] <jcoxon> and one with heat sinks
[21:19] <jcoxon> well i'll watch it
[21:21] <HenryHallam> it might just be one unit, the big thing with heatsinks is the actual transmitter while the other one plugs into your computer system
[21:22] <jcoxon> true
[21:25] <phatmonkey> http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/launches/cats_launch_000328.html
[21:26] <phatmonkey> didn't realise jp did that stuff
[21:26] <HenryHallam> JP looks like a fun group
[21:26] <jcoxon> was in 2000
[21:26] <jcoxon> JP are in trouble
[21:26] <phatmonkey> The two foundations are offering a $250,000 prize to the first amateur group that can launch a 4.4-pound (2-kilogram) payload to 124 miles (200 kilometers).
[21:26] <phatmonkey> ohmygodohmygodohmygod
[21:27] <phatmonkey> money!
[21:27] <jcoxon> according to nmealing their funding might be cut
[21:27] <phatmonkey> woah, 2000
[21:27] <phatmonkey> didn't realise
[21:27] <HenryHallam> if that was 2000 then that prize has expired
[21:27] <HenryHallam> that ebay radio modem is really serious kit
[21:27] <HenryHallam> looks like about £20000 worth
[21:28] <jcoxon> !!!!!!!
[21:29] <HenryHallam> unfortunately that does mean that finding a matching unit would be hard
[21:29] <HenryHallam> if it is indeed only one end
[21:31] <HenryHallam> http://www.navchina.com/download/rfm96w.pdf
[21:34] <HenryHallam> I think perhaps the big box is a transceiver and the small one is just a receiver?
[21:34] <jcoxon> yeah
[21:34] <jcoxon> thats what i was just working out
[21:34] <HenryHallam> or
[21:34] <HenryHallam> the big box is a 35W transceiver and the small one is a 2W transceiver
[21:35] <jcoxon> on the second page
[21:35] <HenryHallam> if I can work out the ratio of length to width of the small box that should give the answer
[21:35] <jcoxon> it says the blue box is a recieve only RFM96W
[21:36] <HenryHallam> yeah
[21:36] <HenryHallam> but the 2W version is the same width and height, just 2cm longer
[21:36] <HenryHallam> sorry 3.7cm longer
[21:37] <HenryHallam> ah
[21:37] <HenryHallam> now compare the picture in the pdf to the ebay
[21:37] <HenryHallam> on the pdf the stripes cover the full length, on ebay only the middle section
[21:37] <HenryHallam> therefore I think it's two transcievers, one 35W and one 2W
[21:37] <HenryHallam> if we can get a license that would be absolutely perfect
[21:37] <jcoxon> oooo
[21:37] <jcoxon> well i think at 99p tis a bargin what ever
[21:38] <HenryHallam> lol
[21:38] <HenryHallam> 7 days to go
[21:38] <jcoxon> yeah
[21:38] <jcoxon> 35w would go along way
[21:38] <jcoxon> a long*
[21:39] <HenryHallam> yeah if you're willing to follow it around the country a bit you could track it as far as you liked
[21:40] <jcoxon> hmmmmm
[21:40] <jcoxon> 406.1=.. MoD, to 420
[21:40] <jcoxon> (replacements for old VHF local net allocations being cleared)
[21:42] <HenryHallam> is that from that really old textfile?
[21:42] <jcoxon> hehe yup
[21:42] <jcoxon> i do have the freq allocation table for 2004 as well
[21:43] <HenryHallam> from the pdf: Type Acceptance All models are type accepted and certified for
[21:43] <HenryHallam> operation in the European Community.
[21:43] <HenryHallam> oh, look it up in that one then
[21:43] <HenryHallam> it'll be MHz not kHz of course
[21:43] <HenryHallam> but I think VHF is MHz
[21:46] <jcoxon> so what am i searching for?
[21:47] <jcoxon> 406mhz?
[21:48] <jcoxon> http://www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/isu/ukfat/fat2004.pdf
[21:57] <HenryHallam> UK60 The Aeronautical Mobile service is limited to
[21:57] <HenryHallam> airborne transmissions in connection with the
[21:57] <HenryHallam> telemetering operations in the bands
[21:57] <HenryHallam> 401 –
[21:57] <HenryHallam> 406 MHz and 406·1 - 417·5 MHz.
[21:57] <HenryHallam> oh snap, that's exactly the band of that ebay modem
[21:59] <jcoxon> interesting
[22:00] <jcoxon> so it requries a licence?
[22:00] <jcoxon> i'm still slightly confused
[22:02] <HenryHallam> oh yes, definitely needs a license
[22:02] <HenryHallam> but the equipment is approved so it's not like we're trying to get our own design certified
[22:02] <HenryHallam> and the frequency is in the right category for the right kind of license
[22:03] <jcoxon> right well if we manage to get it
[22:03] <jcoxon> then we'll speak to ofcom
[22:03] <jcoxon> i know the best way for us to get over the communciation problem
[22:03] <jcoxon> get the MOD involved :-P
[22:03] <HenryHallam> heh
[22:03] <HenryHallam> nice
[22:04] <HenryHallam> instant field deployment of repeaters for UAVs, photo recon, general comms...
[22:04] <jcoxon> cause there is another legal issue approaching
[22:04] <HenryHallam> out of range of most surface-to-air missiles
[22:04] <HenryHallam> oh?
[22:04] <jcoxon> with 5 day flights it becomes a UAV
[22:05] <HenryHallam> hm
[22:05] <jcoxon> and the laws are a bit sketchy
[22:06] <HenryHallam> if they're sketchy then we're probably ok
[22:07] <jcoxon> http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=7&pagetype=90&pageid=4971
[22:08] <jcoxon> actually this is better
[22:08] <jcoxon> http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=393&pagetype=90&pageid=3271
[22:12] <HenryHallam> ok well at the moment those are just proposals, and the balloons wouldn't violate the spirit of them anyway since they are well above airspace used by any manned aircraft
[22:12] <jcoxon> yeah i know
[22:12] <HenryHallam> plus the CAA have been known to grant waivers of their rules to people who have good reasons
[22:12] <jcoxon> we jsut have to be careful to make sure we know when we cross the boundary
[22:12] <jcoxon> i doubt we ever will
[22:13] <jcoxon> as it will always be a balloon
[22:13] <jcoxon> we are just delaying it coming down
[22:13] <HenryHallam> yeah
[22:13] <HenryHallam> a powered airship might be a bit more tricky
[22:13] <jcoxon> exactly
[22:14] <jcoxon> and it cross controlled aerospace pretty quickly either in ascent with the legal balloon or attached to a parachute
[22:14] <jcoxon> http://www.largemodelassociation.com/caa-meetings.htm
[22:18] <HenryHallam> ok
[22:18] <HenryHallam> ideally we should be falling under the commercial category
[22:20] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:23] <jcoxon> we seriously need some one working on logistics
[22:24] <jcoxon> and legal issues such as liasing with the CAA and OFCOM
[22:25] <HenryHallam> I said as much to Carl
[22:25] <HenryHallam> hopefully he'll bring it up on Tuesday
[22:25] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:25] <jcoxon> i do worry that over the summer its just going to be me, you and carl working on this
[22:25] <jcoxon> and the others will be left behind
[22:26] <HenryHallam> there were 3 UROPs weren't there? if me and carl have one each then the other one can be split in two so at least two people can have 5 weeks paid each
[22:26] <HenryHallam> and maybe we could get some people to come in unpaid
[22:26] <HenryHallam> even if it's just for launch days
[22:27] <jcoxon> you and carl have 10 weeks
[22:27] <jcoxon> and i have 8
[22:27] <jcoxon> that only leaves 2
[22:27] <jcoxon> but yeah
[22:27] <jcoxon> launch days especially
[22:29] <HenryHallam> oh I didn't realise your 8 weeks were covered by urop
[22:29] <HenryHallam> well perhaps we can request another placement
[22:29] <jcoxon> yup
[22:29] mark_firestone (n=mark@spc1-blac3-0-0-cust691.bagu.broadband.ntl.com) joined #highaltitude.
[22:29] <jcoxon> hey mark_firestone
[22:30] <HenryHallam> Hi
[22:30] <mark_firestone> hey there
[22:30] <jcoxon> mark_firestone, HenryHallam is part of the nova team
[22:30] <jcoxon> hehe i like introducing peopel
[22:30] <mark_firestone> hi henry, nice to meet you
[22:30] <jcoxon> people*
[22:30] <mark_firestone> not ron popeal, inventor of the pocket fisherman?
[22:30] <mark_firestone> heh
[22:31] <jcoxon> :-)
[22:31] <mark_firestone> and the amazing record vacuum (i'll cut it out now)
[22:31] <HenryHallam> and you
[22:31] <HenryHallam> record vacuum eh?
[22:31] <mark_firestone> I'm just a crazy american in Lancashire that wants to launch some balloons
[22:31] <mark_firestone> (actually, they call me the mad american on this street...)
[22:32] <jcoxon> hehe
[22:32] <HenryHallam> hope you can come to the Nova launch!
[22:33] <mark_firestone> where is it?
[22:33] <mark_firestone> and when?
[22:33] <jcoxon> cambridge
[22:33] <jcoxon> its actually a dual launch
[22:33] <jcoxon> i'm launching pegasus III as well
[22:33] <mark_firestone> I'll try. It depends on when the wife is working. When are you planning on doing it?
[22:33] <HenryHallam> yeah we're going to have a launch tent
[22:33] <HenryHallam> and visors
[22:33] <jcoxon> hehe
[22:33] <HenryHallam> middle of June
[22:33] <jcoxon> i'm keen for offical jump suits
[22:33] <mark_firestone> hehehe!
[22:34] <mark_firestone> I'll give you an ebriusology blessing. As reverend Mark Gravity. (http://www.ebriusology.info)
[22:34] <jcoxon> HenryHallam, i plan to propose we open the pegasus/nova launch window on the 16th June
[22:34] <jcoxon> for 2 weeks
[22:34] <jcoxon> if we can get it off on the 17th that would be great
[22:35] <HenryHallam> sounds good to me
[22:35] <HenryHallam> and I like that church
[22:35] <HenryHallam> speaking of jump suits, I really want to get hold of a pressure suit and a big weather balloon.....
[22:35] <mark_firestone> Cool. I'll see what i can do. I've never been to cambridge before
[22:36] <HenryHallam> James, do you have a link to that rocket beacon by any chance?
[22:36] <jcoxon> nope
[22:36] <jcoxon> hehe
[22:37] <mark_firestone> I bought a couple of really cheap PMR walkie talkies. I think they might do for a radio link
[22:37] <mark_firestone> totally illegal, of course...
[22:38] <jcoxon> of course
[22:38] <jcoxon> crap zeusbot is logging this converstation :-p
[22:38] <mark_firestone> oh no, evidence!
[22:38] <mark_firestone> It's ofcom, the phone police
[22:38] <jcoxon> hehe
[22:38] <mark_firestone> they're everywhere
[22:38] <HenryHallam> hahaha
[22:39] <HenryHallam> I had a set of 1W CBs a long time ago that could do 10 miles on the ground
[22:39] <mark_firestone> in arizona, my friend had a 100 watt amp on his cb. it would light a zenon bulb on the antenna
[22:40] <mark_firestone> i told dwayne not to touch it, stupid dwayne. I'd never seen an RF burn before
[22:40] <HenryHallam> brb chicken
[22:40] <HenryHallam> you should try Tesla coils, then you'll see some...
[22:41] <mark_firestone> heh heh heh. i used to (years ago) work in a factory making transformers... I was a winder. we made on.
[22:41] <mark_firestone> one
[22:41] <mark_firestone> that was a boring job
[22:42] <mark_firestone> i made parts for cruise missles. bits of my toriods are all over the iraqi desert now
[22:43] <mark_firestone> i'll be back later tonight. i have to go do my domestic duties.
[22:43] <jcoxon> cya later
[22:43] <mark_firestone> okeydoke
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[22:48] <macfreak4> whoa
[22:48] <macfreak4> lots of ppl
[22:48] <macfreak4> !!
[22:48] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:52] <HenryHallam> back... bye Mark, hi Mac
[22:52] <macfreak4> hi
[22:53] <HenryHallam> I'm doing some electronics work with the Nova balloon
[22:53] <macfreak4> is that a different nova or the same?
[22:54] <jcoxon> same :-D
[22:54] <macfreak4> oh so you guys... gotcha
[22:54] <HenryHallam> hey I'm not sure what you're implying there ;) ;)
[22:54] <macfreak4> nooooo
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[22:58] <HenryHallam> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10-RAdiosondes-made-by-Vaisalla_W0QQitemZ7614302300QQcategoryZ77985QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem do you think these include balloons or are they just the sensor package?
[22:58] <macfreak4> my internet just crapped out
[22:58] <macfreak4> ugh
[22:59] <jcoxon> they don't have balloons
[22:59] <jcoxon> just the radiosondes
[22:59] <HenryHallam> ok
[23:09] <macfreak4> "You can use helium to achieve lift off plus a few pounds of lift and then finish filling the balloon with regular air. Doing this will put your balloon, fully inflated, in the air for less money."
[23:09] <macfreak4> why the heck would someone want to do that??
[23:10] <HenryHallam> how weird
[23:11] <HenryHallam> maybe because they want to see a huge big inflated balloon?
[23:11] <macfreak4> that's gotta be it
[23:11] <macfreak4> because otherwise it makes no senses at all
[23:11] <macfreak4> sense*
[23:28] phatmonkey (n=phatmonk@65.98.2.81.in-addr.arpa) left #highaltitude ("Leaving").
[23:29] <jcoxon> right i'm off
[23:29] <jcoxon> night all
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[00:00] --- Sun Apr 30 2006