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[07:31] juxta (juxta@ppp203-122-193-94.static.internode.on.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 265 seconds [07:34] natrium42 (~natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving [07:43] DagoRed (~dago@j15-1.nat.iastate.edu) left irc: Quit: Off to bed, wish I could chat longer. [08:12] Stratisphere (~Stratisph@193.200.145.254) joined #highaltitude. [08:12] hey all [08:12] quick question if thats ok [08:12] i'm just about to order a ntx2 [08:13] which freq is best advised given what you fantastic lot listen on? [08:13] At 434.65MHz: NTX2-434.65-10 - Transmitter [08:13] NRX2-434.65-10 - Receiver [08:13] [08:13] At 434.075MHz: NTX2-434.075-10 - Transmitter [08:13] NRX2-434.075-10 - Receiver [08:29] TraumaPony (~TraumaPon@203-206-28-19.dyn.iinet.net.au) joined #highaltitude. [08:37] hey are you in the UK ? [08:37] Stratisphere [08:37] if so people tend to use 434.075 [08:38] recieve you will need something a little more sensitive than the NRX module [08:38] like say Yaesu FT-817 seems to be a popular choice [08:53] hey Upu [08:53] yeh I read it on the alien site so I got that one [08:53] Hi there Stratisphere [08:53] and yeh, i assumed the receiver wouldnt be good enough [08:54] any idea on a semi-decent supplier for the yaesu?: [08:54] I got mine from http://www.radioworld.co.uk/catalog/yaesu-ft817nd-transceiver-p-348.html [08:54] oh wow! £500 lol [08:55] yeah they aren't cheap sadly [08:55] get the NTX module direct from Radiometrix will probably be cheaper [08:55] are you in the UK ? [08:55] yeh chucked them an email a few min ago [08:55] yup, i'm the network manager of a secondary school [08:55] Ah ok where abouts ? [08:55] planning the project as a surprise science project for the kids [08:55] herefordshire [08:56] kk sure there is someone about who will lend a hand with a radio [08:56] jcoxon probably has a radio you can borrow [08:56] cool, my granddad has a scanner, pretty certain it goes to 434.075... just need to check it does ssb [08:57] you guys really do live up to your kindness on the web lol [08:57] yeah alot don't they just do FM [08:58] also if you want to just fly a payload you may be able to "hitch" a lift on another balloon that already has tracking on it [08:59] something I might do after I'm happy my launches are sucessful [08:59] yeh could be an idea [08:59] mind you, the cost for the balloon & gas doesnt appear to be that much compared to the one-time cost of the electronics [09:00] and we plan to do this many more times :D [09:01] well might as well launch a few at a time then :) [09:01] I think CUSF launched 4 payloads at once ? I might be wrong [09:05] rharrison (~rharrison@gateway.hgf.com) joined #highaltitude. [09:09] morning Rob [09:10] ha cool. whats the general idea on max weight? obs it depends on the balloon you use, but whats the max lifted [09:10] ? [09:10] think CUSF lifted 3kgs up on a 1.6kg balloon but you're not going to break alititude records with that weight :) [09:11] I might be totally wrong on this [09:11] I think payloads are normally in the 0.5-1kg region [09:12] 3kg!... Hmm... I think some of our students weigh less than that :P [09:21] lol [09:24] UpuMobile (~UpuMobile@smtp.nevis.co.uk) joined #highaltitude. [09:25] UpuMobile (~UpuMobile@smtp.nevis.co.uk) left irc: Client Quit [09:26] UpuMobile (~UpuMobile@smtp.nevis.co.uk) joined #highaltitude. [09:30] SpeedEvil1 (~user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: Quit: Leaving. [09:30] SpeedEvil (1000@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) joined #highaltitude. [09:42] hi [09:52] Stratisphere, Upu: its possible to receive 434MHz using a cc1020 from Ti - they have an eval board [09:54] tho i havent done this for actual flights [09:55] is it sensitive enough you think for HAB flights? [09:56] noise figure is about 7dB [09:56] it would benefit from a LNA on the front [09:57] Hmm [09:57] possibly 6 - it depends how the decoding works [09:57] UpuMobile (~UpuMobile@smtp.nevis.co.uk) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [09:57] you can get LNAs with 1 or 2 dB - so thats at least 4dB gain [09:59] cool... lol there's alot of learning I need to do! [09:59] http://gb.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/CC1020EMK-433/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuyoPqaVfyaE2PDrM%2fQ%252bmBaP06rCKRTCqk%3d [09:59] 4dB about 60% more range [09:59] *is [10:00] will read now! :) [10:00] but yeah if you are new to radio hacking a cc1020 eval kit is kind of complex [10:00] i havent actually got the full setup working myself so not sure how good it is [10:00] lol [10:02] UpuMobile (~UpuMobile@smtp.nevis.co.uk) joined #highaltitude. [10:07] test [10:23] hello world [10:23] morning [10:25] possibly. [10:26] m1x10 (m1x10@ppp089210139002.dsl.hol.gr) left irc: Quit: I eat electrons for breakfast and I vomit thunders [10:41] UpuMobile (~UpuMobile@smtp.nevis.co.uk) left irc: [10:44] m1x10 (m1x10@ppp089210139002.dsl.hol.gr) joined #highaltitude. [11:49] chris_99 (~chris_99@84.93.186.126) joined #highaltitude. [11:49] chris_99 (~chris_99@84.93.186.126) left irc: Changing host [11:49] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude. [12:06] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [12:46] eroomde (~ed@nessie.habhub.org) joined #highaltitude. [13:02] jcoxon (~jcoxon@cpc1-lanc4-0-0-cust720.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #highaltitude. [13:04] 1/2 day! woohoo [13:12] guess i'm the only one :-p [13:12] hey [13:12] what do u mean 1/2? [13:12] half day [13:13] yeah for what? [13:13] oh from work [13:13] haha [13:13] :) [13:13] as i work slightly longer days i'm meant to have an afternoon off a week to make sure my hours are legal [13:13] however i'm usually too busy [13:13] jcoxon, it's ok for some [13:14] taken me 2 months to get an afternoon off [13:14] :-p [13:14] just been on an ordering spree [13:14] ordered new pcbs, components, radio modules... [13:15] I nearly did a propane powered launch yesterday. [13:15] LazyLeopard (~irc-clien@chocky.demon.co.uk) joined #highaltitude. [13:15] http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/5016093779/ [13:16] Starting fire with a blowtorch on low, and walked away for a moment to get other stuff to put on. [13:16] Got distracted, and noticed that the blowtorch had gotten really, really loud. [13:16] Fortunately, no explosion. [13:17] eek [13:17] The knob and all the plastic on it melted though [13:18] While clearing up, I found some more suitable plastic for balloons. :) [13:48] ping rj [13:48] ping rharrison [13:48] pong [13:48] to the bat cave (#ha2) [13:59] Simon-MPFH (~simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) left irc: Quit: Leaving [14:00] hmm [14:00] hey jcoxon [14:00] you around? [14:00] yup [14:00] here's a kind of n00b question... [14:00] avr-gcc, as in, what comes with avr studio [14:00] is this also a c++ compiler? [14:00] i.e. could i dump in some c++ stuff into my code, and have it still compile? [14:01] coolo, I'm the network manager for a secondary school in herefordshire. We're planning a HAB launch as a surprise science project for some of our kids, we've got alot of stuff already planned out and parts ordered [14:01] one bit we may be lacking is a decent radio to pickup the telemetry (if my granddads doesnt pickup SSB) [14:01] not many scanners do SSB at UHF frequencies [14:02] upu suggested you may be able to lend us one [14:02] Darkside: yes. but I think maybe use avr-g++ [14:02] hmm ok [14:02] indeed i may... [14:02] Randomskk: is that what arduino uses? [14:02] Darkside: maybe. both should be on your system. avr-gcc should work with c++ anyway though, name files cpp or cc [14:02] ok [14:03] cool, well nothing is written yet so no worry/rush. But if it's a case where we cant get one ourselves I would be very grateful if you could [14:03] i've got a spare yaesu ft790r [14:03] thats the one you leant to the alien HAB isnt it? [14:03] (i've been doing alot of reading lol) [14:03] yup [14:03] cool [14:04] awesome, well i'm going to be idling here most days now :) [14:04] okay cool [14:09] we've just ordered alot of kit from sparkfun including stacks of sensors. I've also just placed an order for the NTX2 :) [14:09] sweet [14:10] as soon as i've got a demo kit working and together we'll weigh it up and see what balloon we need then order a few :D:D [14:10] Stratisphere, yeah thats the best approach [14:10] lol everyone loves the NTX2.. [14:11] once i miniaturise my HF board, i'll release all the data for it [14:11] Darkside: we can't transmit HF from balloons in the UK, though [14:11] :/ [14:11] gotta use license free bands [14:11] really [14:12] even with an amateur license? [14:12] namely 434mhz, ish. and 10mW transmit power. [14:12] regretably yes. [14:12] UK amateurs are not allowed to operate airborne [14:12] aww what [14:12] hence 10mW at 434MHz [14:12] juxta managed to run a VHF repeater airborne here :/ [14:12] the same band car keys use to remote unlock, and the same kind of power >__> [14:12] your amateur licenses are like, better [14:12] haha [14:12] but they cost money here :P [14:13] Randomskk: but their aviation regs are more strict [14:13] Darkside: ours cost a little bit [14:13] russss: true, we do have a fairly good time with that [14:13] also like 10mW is enough for anybody [14:14] chris_99 (~chris9001@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude. [14:18] pffff just read a paper by one of my supervisors at uni about measuring the gain patterns of HF antennas [14:19] tl;dr version - get a helicopter, stick a known antenna underneath it (dipole) and fly it around the unknown antenna [14:19] i lol'd [14:19] it works extremely well too, the experimental data is very cool [14:19] Darkside: that's exactly what they do [14:19] http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:dUhhXZCDppcJ:dspace.dsto.defence.gov.au/dspace/bitstream/1947/4315/1/DSTO-TR-0654.pdf+dr+chris+coleman+RF&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgaardYaZjVQRuaai0AJMCSfXCCYLVF0sA_iA3WIS1TWG0FLbrHrfLX--WR11OUcDF3oi_D3FuTuRJi75D82Jd3iqnNBM1Yu24Fldy5MnAjPvSxXy_OHr37nv583-VLgZ7SRQdi&sig=AHIEtbQRRmlrsey4CxQsDftCyyt84MvnIw [14:20] basically taking the classic method of measuring small antennas to the extreme [14:20] which is cool [14:20] i have been talking to someone (Randomskk listen in) who makes super-resolution HF arrays for direction finding [14:20] and they fly a helicopter about to build a model of the complex manifold [14:21] hahahaha [14:21] nice [14:21] Randomskk: i got cut off as we were talking about direction finding [14:21] but there's more to say [14:21] http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521834813 <-- thats the textbook my supervisor wrote [14:21] I read a paper that went through the basics of beamforming and using it for super resolution DF [14:21] Darkside: invalid isbn [14:21] hmm [14:21] but it didn't really get into the complexities of implementation [14:22] Randomskk: mm [14:22] eroomde: check you're copying it right [14:22] just like "yeea change the phase and such" [14:22] did it cover the MUSIC algorithm? [14:22] that's basically the key [14:22] and the secret to how we should make one [14:22] as then we could have several balloons in the sky at once on 434.650 and decode all of them individual with special filtering [14:22] I don't believe it did [14:23] rather than some kind of frequency or temporal bs, which are either scarce or complicated [14:23] cdma :D [14:23] ok, well the music algorithm is basically this (and it's gorgeous in its simplicity) [14:23] eroomde: whereby the receiver beamforms to just receive from the desired balloon? [14:23] just do CDMA :D [14:23] synch the timing with gps [14:23] cdma through a 3khz LPF-ed VCO? [14:24] oh man i need to try this [14:24] i'd like to see that [14:24] lol [14:24] well, a cdma-like thing [14:24] Randomskk: so have an array of say 8 antennas [14:24] ignore the geometry for now. say an octagon but in reality not as that's full of nulls and stuff. but whatever, and array of 8 antennas [14:25] you can describe the covariance between antenna x_n and antenna x_(n+a) with a complex number [14:25] representing the phase and magnitude relationship between each of them [14:26] so you can then make a covariance matrix (8x8 in our case) of complex values representing the relationship of the incoming signal between each of the antennas [14:26] insert maths, receive signal [14:26] it'll be diagonally symmetric right (relationship between x_1 and x_2 is the same as between x_2 and x_1) [14:26] with you so far [14:27] so once you have that complex covariance matrix, you can do an eigen decomposition on it [14:27] yeah [14:27] this would be for a fixed station, right? [14:27] thats how MIMO works [14:27] and each of the eigen value and vecotr pairs you get is a signal that is comping into the array [14:27] coming* [14:27] eroomde: need cc1020s with time sync [14:27] for the ants [14:27] you then have to convolve these eigenpairs with the complex manifold of the array (because it's not going to be a pefect hemisphere). that's basically just a calibration step [14:28] and you can say 'i have a signal at 21.2 degrees azimeth, 14 degreese elevation, with an SNR of 2db) and you're done [14:29] very cool [14:29] beautiful in its simplicity though I get the feeling finding the complex manifold is nontrivial and constructing antennas with electronics to quickly read a synchronised phase and amplitude is also a bit tricky? [14:29] so you can coule a az-el plot on your display which would have small gausian clouds of samples you were getting, and write special demodulators - so basically you see a cloud of points and say 'decode that cloud there' and it'll be neva25 or whatever [14:29] Randomskk: exactly [14:29] id go with cc1020 [14:29] so the trick is to make an array such that the menifold is as regular as possible [14:29] and then treat it as a hemipshere [14:29] but not sure of the best way to time sync [14:30] Laurenceb: ooh i've heard of those chips.. [14:30] maybe a central board [14:30] Laurenceb: does it have a clock in? if you fed them all with the same clock source would that actually work? [14:30] yes [14:30] clk in and out [14:30] problem is boards at each ant or central board and coax? [14:30] Randomskk: so that conversation I had with this guy (who works at roke manor and makes such a system for the miltary) is on the design of a simulated annealing algorithm to iterate to a good manifold design [14:30] eroomde: does that work in reverse to transmit in a given direction? you can find a symmetric matrix from the eigen decomposition, right? [14:31] also you definitely definitely want unresonant elements in the array [14:31] otherwise the mutual coupling just wrecks any chance you have of a vaguely even manifold [14:31] right [14:31] unresonant at incoming signal frequency or..? [14:31] yes [14:31] I guess that makes transmitting more of a pain? [14:31] you may say 'gah! detuned!?!?!' but the improvements you get in SNR from the special filtering stuff more than sort that [14:31] yeah - need larger ants [14:31] fair enough [14:32] ive got a cc1020 SDR thing hacked up on breadboard [14:32] eroomde: better than the track o tron? [14:32] guess a central board isnt scalable [14:32] you can actively shpae the electronic array manifold (which is something you design based on starting with a fairly even physical one) to put nulls in the direction of interfering sources, for instance [14:33] yea, that's quite neat. isn't that kind of how you do the superresolution DF? point nulls? [14:33] Randomskk: maybe not better than some really long yagis altimately, but if you have several balloons in the air, way better [14:33] could you use it with yasgis? [14:33] yuck [14:33] this sounds like a lot of effort to go to for tracking balloons :P [14:33] yes... [14:34] i mean sure, of course right. but analysing your manifold would be torturous [14:34] yeah actually thats stupid [14:34] the other thing that looked interesting is UWB but that seems like it would not be license free exactly [14:34] it's probably overkill for balloons but as an open hardware project it f*cking rocks [14:34] just steer the yagis manually [14:34] and add adjustable delay lines in software [14:34] and you'd get all these super keep DX clubs making them in a heart-beat as you could absolutely *cream* competitions with such a set-up [14:34] MUSIC for that sort of setup itsd the best idea [14:35] super keen* [14:35] i'm very surprised at the UKs radio regs.. [14:35] lol reading this has been cool [14:35] there's gotta be something you cna use airborne [14:35] Darkside: can you give me the title of that book? I'll look it up myself [14:35] apart from the 433MHz ISM stuff [14:35] Darkside: yes. 10mW 434mhz [14:35] i feel like i've been privvy to some military secret document (aka, I dont understand a single bit of it lol) [14:35] Darkside: there are a couple of others [14:35] there's a little 868 I think, and some 2.4ghz though FSPL is horrific [14:35] 167mhz at 500mW iirc [14:35] http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Radio-Frequency-Engineering/dp/0521834813 [14:36] its our uni's 3rd year RF engineering textbook [14:36] we use a bit of it in 4th year too, mainly s-matrix stuff [14:37] s-matrix? [14:37] sounds a bit dark [14:37] scattering matricies [14:37] i.e for amplifiers, filters, basically any device [14:37] I have never done any academic courses on anything radio so quite a lot of it is a bit unknown to me [14:37] i'm happier once it's a bitstream [14:37] hahaa [14:37] yes [14:38] signal processing ftw [14:38] Randomskk: but yes a super resolution UHF rig would be amazing [14:38] still, i'm wondeirng if it would be possible to do something like CDMA on that band [14:38] and would hopefully fit on a roof rack [14:38] yes, of course [14:38] and quite likely no one would ntoice [14:39] if you did code hopping [14:39] not quite the same as CDMA, but signals added together, then pulled out at the receiver with dsp [14:39] eroomde: an FPGA doing maths, 8 or so antennas with cc1020s and a central clock, an output stream of vectors and signals? [14:39] easy yes [14:39] does the decomposition give you the momentary signal amplitude? [14:39] with the direction as the vector? or what [14:39] correct [14:39] http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cc1020.pdf clk input on the osc pin [14:39] it's all done in a complex space which gives you phase and mag [14:39] all that info is preserved [14:39] neat. [14:39] apart from when you decimate to baseband [14:40] and yep, FPGA to USB or something [14:40] well hang on [14:40] Randomskk: yeah maybe stick a cc1020 on each ant [14:40] I really really want to get to use my fpga for something [14:40] fpga doing the packing and usb [14:40] big chunky fpga.. [14:40] I am kind of tempted to try and implement HDCP in it [14:40] you would to do the dsp on a cpu i think [14:40] on a laptop [14:40] ah, fair enough [14:40] Randomskk: what fpga? [14:40] need some sort of digital comms to the ants tho.. [14:40] Darkside: spartan 3e, though I can get others [14:40] yeah i have a spartan 3e board [14:40] yeah spartan is nice [14:41] got a friend working on a virtex 6 at uni [14:41] veeeeeeeeeeery expensive fpga, the virtex 6 [14:41] and he's got a gameboy emulator running on it :P [14:41] yea really. the cost on the big ones goes up dramatically [14:41] using 6 microblaze cores [14:41] running at 150MHz.. [14:41] wow [14:41] i think you'd want to use the CPU to do the music stuff. there's plenty of horsepower and it'll make it a million times easier to integrate with special decoders [14:41] hehe [14:42] http://retromaster.wordpress.com/a2601/ did an atari 2600 including cpu, memory and graphics unit on a spartan 3e [14:42] its more a research project about how to do inter-core communication efficiently than anyting [14:42] how far apart would the ants be? [14:42] ~1m or so? [14:42] Laurenceb: that's the hardest bit [14:42] designing the manifold [14:42] eroomde: that's true. easier to program too, at the end of the day [14:42] youd really need a seperate spi bus to each ant [14:42] it think after that you just need coherent receivers and decimation and basically shove it into usb. [14:42] as it has to run at a few mbps [14:42] Laurenceb: easily done on an fpga [14:43] yes [14:43] spi? it's gonna have to be quite high bandwidth i think [14:43] as is usb, there are ip cores for that [14:43] ~2 to 4 [14:43] mbps [14:43] you'd probably want to grab like 1mhz bandwidth [14:43] spi can do quite high bandwidth [14:43] as a bus, anyway [14:43] the cc is going to be the limiting factor [14:43] Or you don't bother. [14:43] eroomde: cripes [14:43] you can do 2 bit conversdion on the cc [14:43] with 8 antennas that's 8mhz bandwidth at whatever adc resoiltuion your budget will stretch to [14:43] eroomde: just make your own down converted and stick a big-ass ADC on there [14:44] And you have a 4 quadrant mixer at each antenna, that feeds onto an IQ summer [14:44] swhy the bandwidth? [14:44] surely a few tens of Khz would be fine [14:44] so you can see most of 70cm [14:44] Do you really care about the steering that much [14:44] just enough to see the signal [14:44] the point of these systems is to be able to grab all of a a band and monitor it [14:44] fairdoos [14:44] i was thinking just for monitoring [14:44] and you do really need lots of bits on your ADC - that's very important in this app [14:44] - rx etc [14:45] eroomde: define 'lots' [14:45] you can go to 3 bit [14:45] 24 would be nice [14:45] jeez [14:45] not kidding [14:45] $$$$$$$$ [14:45] so think about it [14:45] no way thatd be practical [14:45] ths USRP2 is only 16 or something, isn't it? [14:45] with a single antenna, when you have a balloon your are listening to at 10mW 400km away, that's fine [14:45] with multiple ants itd get crazy [14:46] when someone on their 5W handheld 1km talks on your frequency, you are utterly trashed - nothing you can do [14:46] so who cares [14:46] but with special multiplexing, you can still see both the balloon and the handheld [14:46] how so? [14:46] but ONLY if you have the dynamic range to see both of them despite the huge difference in SNR [14:46] switch to a seperate frequency? [14:46] no, this is the point of the special stuff [14:47] you can have lots of things on the same frequency [14:47] Darkside: USRP2 is 14 bits receive, 16 transmit [14:47] but as long as they're in difference places you can split them up [14:47] it's like FDM or TDM [14:47] but SDM in this case [14:47] guess so [14:47] that's the joy of this sytem [14:47] but its never going to be perfect [14:47] it gives you another dimension [14:47] i reckon mobile phoens should do this [14:47] Different places * antenna null depth * signal ratios [14:47] Action: Laurenceb is not convinced [14:47] you can massively increase the capaicty of each cell [14:47] eroomde: they sort of are. [14:48] eroomde: but only at the tower. [14:48] Laurenceb: why are you not convinced? this is how this tech works [14:48] eroomde: They segment the tower into octants or more. [14:48] 24bits is massive overkill imo [14:48] yea, they do a bit [14:48] even mil gps is only 8 bits [14:48] well, do the maths [14:48] i just have [14:48] Rejecting co-channel interference is hard. [14:48] im not convinced >8 bit is worth it [14:48] And requires everything to just work. [14:48] you want to hear something 500km at 10mW at the same time as something on 5W 1km away [14:49] so you can calc how much dynamic range on the adc that you need [14:49] yes but mismodelling [14:49] and weird second order effects etc [14:49] 24 is a lot yes, i'm not entirely serious for a first system. but 12-16 definitely. rather than 8 [14:49] you somewhat don't care about mismodeling [14:49] the MUSIC technique will never be that good [14:49] as you can tweak each antenna virtually [14:50] unless you have an ant forest [14:50] Laurenceb: i'm afraid you're wrong [14:50] it is that good [14:50] get a whole bunch of USRP's [14:50] i've seen live demonstrations of exactly this kind of product [14:50] Darkside: seriously expensive [14:50] :P [14:50] but USRP2s can link together for MIMO [14:50] ooh [14:50] at $70 a link cable and $$$$ a USRP2 [14:50] plus $$$$ for their RX daughterboards [14:50] hehe [14:50] yeah.. [14:51] It isn't that bad to just do a demo. [14:51] need to yoink one from a lecturer for a while [14:51] I think this can definitely be done chaps [14:51] about 5 people at uni have them, and don't use them [14:51] Large wide DDR ram where you just need to supply a new page address every 4096 samples is common. [14:51] Large sized cheapish ADCs are available. [14:51] one would have to develop a simple but good front end with a high res dsp and a coherent clock system to go across them. [14:52] Doing the data reduction in realtime is uch more fun. [14:52] then an FPGA to do some decimating and packaging [14:52] well, probably just packaging [14:52] and then it's a software problem [14:52] I don't know you could stream the raw data from FPGA to computer over USB [14:52] USB3 [14:52] :) [14:52] would be required [14:52] controller chips are a pita [14:53] gbit ethernet? [14:53] might need something else. firewire is potentially more likely, but rarer [14:53] it'd probably be worth designing around the usb constraint [14:53] gbit ethernet is how the USRP does it [14:53] and that's one 14bit receiver [14:53] USRP2* [14:53] aye that could work nicely too [14:53] you can sort-of-fudge the USB constraint by using multiple cables [14:53] isnt USRP crap for 434? [14:53] yea but like [14:53] that's probably the way to do it [14:53] just udp [14:54] Logic does 24MHz sample rate max over USB, saturating the bus bandwidth, and that's 8 readings at binary 0 or 1 each [14:54] and then a decent cpu [14:54] eroomde: or serveral, since it's ethernet [14:54] Are the 'hard' applications really that vital? [14:54] hard? [14:54] Compared to for example a FPGA or whatever core that can do MAC for all the antennas for two signal sources with uploaded coefficicents for each antenna. [14:55] That would considerably ease the datarate of the link [14:55] this would be a very awesome research project [14:55] The point-cloud aspect is shiny, yes. [14:56] But may tend to blow the complexity way up. [14:56] I do wonder how seperate the antennas can be. [14:57] As in many kilometers + GPS PPS [14:57] I suspect that'd not really be useful [14:57] as you'd want the timebase and atmospheric errors to be well under a tenth of a wavelenght [14:58] Action: Laurenceb realises hes confusing this with MIMO [14:58] SpeedEvil: yeah actually i must confess my desire to make this was piqued by the thought of a GPS visualiser [14:58] MIMO is different? [14:58] GPS visualiser is shiny. [14:58] see the sats pass over in real time [14:58] erm ucenter? [14:58] but actually that might be pretty tricky as they're so far beneath the noise floor [14:58] oh go tyou [14:58] no no, i mean one that sees the actual sats [14:59] johnnyfive|work (~sharkt@70.89.126.174-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #highaltitude. [14:59] interesting [14:59] not just plots where the decoded thing tells them they are [14:59] *sees* them [14:59] eroomde: I came up with a really simple design to directly recieve M-code. [14:59] Action: Laurenceb isnt really following the conversation [14:59] eroomde: It did however involve a 34m dish. [14:59] you can detect M code bit edges [14:59] meefs (ken@shell.kobnet.net) joined #highaltitude. [14:59] I mean accurately recieve the bitstream. [14:59] Action: Stratisphere isnt following the conversation atall [14:59] so? [15:00] you dont know what its going to do next.. [15:00] oh [15:00] you stream the data [15:00] nice [15:00] a la DGPS [15:00] If you do this, you can then do a similar thing to that sample-matching GPS that works on L1 GPS [15:00] clever [15:00] To get more SNR by using the other signal too [15:00] the one that's designed for cameras that samples 1s of GPS and records it for later decode [15:01] you could stream the data from your dish [15:01] and use on a delayed bitstream [15:01] to do a DLL+FLL/PLL for the M code [15:01] :/ AFK - gotta do tidying up of stuff outside before it rains. [15:02] Action: Laurenceb thinks web based M code dtreaming system [15:02] Action: Laurenceb wonders how logn before USAF would stick a missile into your dish [15:02] mornin [15:03] anyway - i dont quite follow the MUSIC thingymabob [15:03] how far apart would the ants be, and how does it differ from MIMO? [15:09] Laurenceb: I honestly don't know - we'd have to sim it [15:10] i guess for 70cm you'd want to try and keep the array "diameter' less than about 2m [15:10] but i mean the wouldn't all be ina circle [15:10] necessarily [15:10] it's a really tough optimisation problem [15:11] right am off [15:11] see you [15:12] im off [15:12] thanks for the headache guys :P [15:12] (and thanks for the awesome advice :P) [15:13] Stratisphere (~Stratisph@193.200.145.254) left irc: [15:16] chris_99 (~chris9001@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Quit: Leaving [15:18] cya [15:21] DagoRed (~dago@j15-1.nat.iastate.edu) joined #highaltitude. [15:25] with something 2m and a handful on ants i doubt you could get more than 10dB or so signal selectivity [15:25] maybe in ideal simulation land [15:25] but when its noisey and strapped to a movign car.. [15:25] only one way to find out for sure, of course. [15:26] it's not actually an unforgiving amount of data [15:26] say 1mhz data at 16 bits per antenna and 8 antennas [15:26] 16MB/s [15:26] too much for 100mbps ethernet, sure [15:27] but gigabit'd do it. USB2... I don't think so [15:27] well [15:27] technically USB2 should support 60MB/s [15:27] thing is with cc you can only get 3 bit for I and Q [15:27] but in reality I don't know that you can achieve that in real time [15:27] ah [15:28] pinning a downconversion board would be massively more complex [15:28] might need to do more radio stuff yourself then [15:28] and expensive [15:28] yes [15:28] true, just look at USRP [15:29] USRP for 434 is a bit lame [15:30] it is [15:30] also silly expensive [15:30] there are maxim TV tuner ICs [15:31] but much more complex than a cc [15:39] SpikeUK_ (~chatzilla@212.183.140.31) joined #highaltitude. [15:40] Nick change: SpikeUK_ -> SpikeUK [15:49] SpikeUK (~chatzilla@212.183.140.31) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [15:50] Laurenceb (80f3fd6c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.243.253.108) left irc: Quit: Page closed [15:56] Randomskk: I see 32M/s on a USB2 disk [15:56] which isn't terrible [15:58] so, just about doable on usb2 maybe [15:59] would saturate most of the bus though if you were doing anything else [15:59] I'd assume you'd need to dedicate it [16:00] Action: SpeedEvil has been bending iron bars. [16:00] manly stuff [16:00] (well - technically fencewire) [16:00] I have huge piles of crap sort-of-sorted. [16:01] And am trying to get to the stage where I have neat piles of sorted crap and a huge pile for the skip. [16:01] chris_99 (~chris_99@84.93.186.126) joined #highaltitude. [16:01] chris_99 (~chris_99@84.93.186.126) left irc: Changing host [16:01] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude. [16:13] lonek (lonek@host81-137-96-89.in-addr.btopenworld.com) joined #highaltitude. [16:27] hi guys, does anyone here use any electronic simulation packages per chance [16:27] just looking for a good one [16:33] for circuit design I'm assuming? [16:33] yeah [16:40] orchad [16:40] pspice [16:42] cheers DagoRed, can either of those simulate microcontrollers do you know [16:43] simulating micros is usually a more specialist task [16:43] typically provided for by your microcontroller manufacturer's tools [16:43] also at that point you really might be better just breadboarding [16:44] chris_99: you never model a micro in that software. [16:44] StrayVoltage (Tvilling@unaffiliated/twiner) left irc: Ping timeout: 272 seconds [16:44] a while ago i thought i remember seeing one that could do it though [16:45] but yeah you're right Randomskk, bread boarding probably makes more sense [16:45] chris_99: Just model the parts you want. For instance, and output can be a step output. [16:45] yea. [16:45] StrayVoltage (~blah@c4383BF51.static.bluecom.no) joined #highaltitude. [16:45] StrayVoltage (~blah@c4383BF51.static.bluecom.no) left irc: Changing host [16:45] StrayVoltage (~blah@unaffiliated/twiner) joined #highaltitude. [16:45] there are simulators for AVRs [16:46] but like, they simulate its internals and IO [16:46] they don't usually plug into a normal SPICE simulator [16:46] aha [16:48] this looks kind of cool http://www.labcenter.com/products/pic18.cfm [16:49] rharrison (~rharrison@gateway.hgf.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving [16:55] Hi [16:55] waste of time chris_99 [16:58] I just sew that there are some devices called dc-dc converters [16:58] yes [16:58] they turn DC into DC [16:58] usually at a different voltage [16:58] you give little voltage and it outputs much more [16:58] evening [16:58] m1x10: sometimes, you give a lot of voltage and it outputs much less [16:58] why not use it in HAB? [16:58] does that make it similar to an op-amp? [16:58] one battery less weight less space..... [16:59] m1x10: some people do. but we don't really need high voltages [16:59] m1x10: well yes, but the total power that battery can deliver is constant [16:59] chris_99: no. opamps can only output up to their power supply voltages [16:59] so you connect +15V to them, the biggest they will output is 15V [16:59] DC-DC converters can input 1.5V and output 5V, say. [16:59] ok [16:59] cool :) i'm guessing they use capacitors somehow [17:00] for that [17:00] but obviously it draws more current at 1.5V than it supplies at 5V, and they're not perfectly efficient. [17:00] chris_99: sometimes. or inductors. [17:00] I mean, everything uses capacitors, and inductor based DC-DC supplies use capacitors to smooth the output [17:00] you can do a voltage doubler with just capacitors though [17:00] that sounds a handy little device [17:00] yea. [17:00] normally i use voltage regs [17:01] to step down [17:01] DC-DCs can be more efficient to step down [17:04] Randomskk, all converters have constant output power? [17:04] if my system needs less they keep providing the constant one? [17:05] m1x10: no [17:05] they have mostly-constant output voltage and power depends on your current draw [17:05] so, what exactly we need. right? [17:05] what? [17:06] yes, they would let you run a HAB system off a single AA cell [17:06] so, thats exactly we need. right? [17:06] oh [17:06] but you'd have in total a third of the power, at the end of the day, minus boost inefficiencies [17:06] so your system lifetime would be 1/3 [17:06] why is that? [17:06] because you have one battery, not three [17:06] DagoRed (~dago@j15-1.nat.iastate.edu) left irc: Quit: Leaving [17:06] jcoxon (~jcoxon@cpc1-lanc4-0-0-cust720.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving [17:06] DC-DC converters do not magically make energy [17:06] lol [17:07] e.g. if your load requires 1A of current [17:07] and you're feeding it from three batteries [17:07] and say that gives you 6V of power from the three batteries [17:08] your total power consumption is P=I*V=6W [17:08] but me using 6 battery pack for total 9v, the total capacity is not increased. total capacity is equal to one battery. [17:08] the power being drawn from each battery is P=I*V=2W (2V per cell, 1A still) [17:08] now if you use a DC-DC converter from a single cell [17:08] it supplies 1A at 6V [17:08] to do that it draws 3A at 2V [17:08] power in = power out [17:08] 3A * 2V = 1A * 6V [17:09] so now the one battery is supplying 3A at 2V [17:09] which is three times as much current as it was before [17:09] so it will die three times quicker [17:10] if you use 6 batteries for a 9V supply, the total capacity is six times bigger than one battery [17:10] because you're drawing the same current at six times the voltage [17:10] each battery has so much total energy it can deliver [17:10] you cannot change that [17:10] you can muck about with voltages all you like to get what your system needs [17:11] but you can't get more energy out of the cell, so using just one cell means one third the total energy of using three. [17:11] wait. i know that if i use the 6 batteries in series I just increase the voltage output. [17:12] yes. but if you draw 1A at 1.5V, that's 1.5W of power [17:12] if you draw 1A at the combined 9V, that's 9W of power. [17:12] that's six times more power. [17:12] same current, but increased voltage => more power [17:12] energy is power over time [17:12] im confused [17:13] I think the simplest thing to think about here is that each cell has a fixed energy, which gets used up as you draw current from the cell. [17:13] ok [17:13] each cell provides a certain voltage, which is mostly constant over its life, but does drop a bit. [17:13] ok [17:13] you can take any input voltage you like, and turn it into any output voltage you like, to power your system [17:13] but the total power into this converter will match the total power out of it, where the power is the current times the voltage [17:14] so, if your converter increases the voltage, it will be drawing more current from the lower voltage than it delivers to the higher voltage [17:14] ah [17:14] such that the input power is the same as the output power [17:14] it will empty the bats then [17:14] more quicly [17:14] so what matters most really is energy - each cell has some amount of energy, and you can use that energy at any voltage/current you feel like [17:15] three cells give three times as much total energy as one cell [17:15] so yes, using a single cell and a voltage increaser will empty that single cell quicker [17:20] stilldavid (~dave@68-64-214-18.static.forethought.net) left irc: Read error: Operation timed out [17:21] stilldavid (~dave@68-64-214-18.static.forethought.net) joined #highaltitude. 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[18:09] hi [18:09] Action: Laurenceb got hammered by customs :( [18:09] £25 [18:09] yeah me too [18:09] its %28 of the value [18:09] £15 + £10 for the admin [18:10] on a GPS chip that cost £22 [18:10] well x 2 [18:10] where did you guys order from? [18:10] I got mine from Inventek in th US [18:11] aha, when i ordered a logic analyser for £30, it didn't get taxed [18:11] it was from China, if that makes any difference [18:11] yeah sometimes you get ayway with it [18:13] ooh [18:13] they used trhe wrong taric code [18:14] guess i have to argue with customs - that'll be fun [18:14] but i should be able to reduce it to £14 [18:17] smealum (~smealum@85-171-205-215.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude. [18:20] but the cost of shiupping is added... [18:20] arg this is retarded [18:20] http://www.ukimports.org/inter_company_terms_conditions_incoterms.html [18:22] SpeedEvil (1000@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [18:32] wonder if you can claim money back from them [18:34] jasonb (~jasonb@12.201.129.162) left irc: Ping timeout: 255 seconds [18:36] SpikeUK (~chatzilla@host109-153-237-174.range109-153.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude. [18:39] nv1k (81bac07b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.186.192.123) joined #highaltitude. [18:40] SpikeUK_ (~chatzilla@host86-164-154-216.range86-164.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude. [18:41] SpikeUK (~chatzilla@host109-153-237-174.range109-153.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds [18:41] Nick change: SpikeUK_ -> SpikeUK [18:49] jasonb (~jasonb@dsl092-009-225.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #highaltitude. [18:53] Hiena (~Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) joined #highaltitude. [18:58] Hiya all! [19:00] Not a HAB question, but maybe one of you knows the answer: How i could identify which peanut butter brand is salty and wich is sweet? It's a kind of exotic (pricey) food here and what i bouth last time it was way too salty. [19:00] lonek (lonek@host81-137-96-89.in-addr.btopenworld.com) left #highaltitude. [19:01] Btw, even that one is burned perfectly when mixed ammonium-nitrate. [19:12] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [19:25] sbasuita (~ssb@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-drztcfccfjzqcpzp) left irc: Quit: leaving [19:26] sbasuita (ssb@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-pvlqprmkiftslriz) joined #highaltitude. [19:40] @nearsys: Got the radios last night. The new flight computer keys the radio and transmits, but my D7 only shows the text, position report. #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/25335705803] [19:42] SpeedEvil (1000@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) joined #highaltitude. 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[20:12] johnnyfive|work (~sharkt@70.89.126.174-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer [20:12] johnnyfive|work (~sharkt@70.89.126.174-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #highaltitude. [20:17] DagoRed (~dago@j15-1.nat.iastate.edu) joined #highaltitude. [20:18] JetForMe (~JetForMe@nat/yahoo/x-ekqscpeojxyronuv) joined #highaltitude. [20:20] SpikeUK (~chatzilla@host86-164-154-216.range86-164.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854] [20:25] johnnyfive|work (~sharkt@70.89.126.174-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer [20:25] johnnyfive|work (~sharkt@70.89.126.174-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #highaltitude. [20:33] jasonb (~jasonb@dsl092-009-225.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [20:42] smealum (~smealum@85-171-205-215.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: [20:47] jasonb (~jasonb@12.201.129.162) joined #highaltitude. [20:52] natrium42 (~natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude. [20:55] Hiena (~Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) left irc: Quit: -=Got bored from the net. Gone blowing up things.=- [21:17] nv1k (81bac07b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.186.192.123) left irc: Quit: Page closed [21:20] JetForMe (~JetForMe@nat/yahoo/x-ekqscpeojxyronuv) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [21:22] m1x10 (m1x10@ppp089210139002.dsl.hol.gr) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [21:27] eroomde: your MUSIC idea, i wonder if ANC would be more applicable [21:28] using our existing distributed Rx system [21:28] so listeners would stream audio to habhub where the ANC DSP code would run [21:29] DagoRed (dago@j15-1.nat.iastate.edu) left #highaltitude ("Leaving"). [21:30] ANC? [21:31] I would assume that comment is about HF? [21:32] As it seems unlikely to be able to beamform at 70cm [21:36] adaptive noise cancelling [21:40] So you mean just correlation, not beamforming? [21:40] that's much easier [21:41] I guess the ANC concept could work really well, if the noise was different for each receiver but the incoming signal the same [21:41] I think the AGC would be the issue though [21:41] you don't get very much dynamic range after conversion to audio especially after the AGC [21:41] a strong noise signal - which they almost all are when the desired signal is 10mW and hundreds of km out - will totally wipe out the balloon [21:42] true [21:42] but itd help bring it out of the noise florr a huge amount [21:43] ANC is much cleverer than just correlation [21:44] http://www-isl.stanford.edu/~widrow/papers/j1975adaptivenoise.pdf [21:44] good paper on it [21:44] anyway, gtg [21:44] Laurenceb (~laurence@host86-160-237-102.range86-160.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [21:46] Oh - right - I was asuming this was using existing SSB recievers [22:04] SpeedEvil (1000@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: Read error: Operation timed out [22:06] Upu (~Upu@ubn.upuaut.net) left irc: [22:08] LazyLeopard (~irc-clien@chocky.demon.co.uk) joined #highaltitude. 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[22:57] johnnyfive|work (~sharkt@70.89.126.174-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving [23:05] LazyLeopard (~irc-clien@chocky.demon.co.uk) left irc: Quit: Bye [23:13] SpeedEvil (~user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: Quit: Leaving. [23:13] SpeedEvil (1000@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) joined #highaltitude. [23:58] natrium42 (~natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude. [23:59] DagoRed (~dago@2610:130:102:1200:21c:b3ff:feb8:da45) joined #highaltitude. [00:00] --- Fri Sep 24 2010