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[01:59] <ki6ymz> hey all, just got an ntx2 in the mail, can someone help me with resistor values for a voltage divider?
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[02:22] <ki6ymz> woot, I think I got it.
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[08:27] <earthshine> morning all
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[11:57] Nick change: b3cft_ -> b3cft
[12:13] <rharrison_> http://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/firstlight/
[12:13] <rharrison_> Some nice stuff here
[12:14] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
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[12:51] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/XY2ZV.png
[12:51] <Laurenceb> its so small :P
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[12:56] <Laurenceb> N900evil: http://i.imgur.com/XY2ZV.png <- its very small with the invensense gyro :D
[12:58] <N900evil> why so much smaller
[12:58] <N900evil> ?
[12:58] <Laurenceb> ITG3200 gyros
[12:58] <N900evil> oh - that misswsour rhe rf
[12:58] <Laurenceb> or gyro ic rather
[12:58] <Laurenceb> and the lsm303
[12:58] <N900evil> misses
[12:59] <Laurenceb> so just three ICs
[12:59] <N900evil> and you lose a mag chip
[12:59] <Laurenceb> well the lsm303 is mag+accel
[12:59] <Laurenceb> I'll stick a cutdown in the upper right
[13:00] <Laurenceb> thinking having it double as a brushed esc, but its tricky avoiding magnetic noise
[13:01] <Laurenceb> a few amps should be ok
[13:02] <Laurenceb> that motion processor thing is pretty cool - appears it has inbuilt kalman filter - not just gesture recognition
[13:03] <N900evil> nice
[13:03] <Laurenceb> but its probably pretty limited in  what it can do
[13:03] <Laurenceb> not sure if its worth bothing with
[13:04] <N900evil> It'd be silly if it could take gps ;)
[13:04] <Laurenceb> if you want to do some fancy calibration etc
[13:04] <Laurenceb> it can
[13:04] <N900evil> the integral kalman?
[13:04] <Laurenceb> and costs $4 in bulk
[13:04] <Laurenceb> I think so
[13:04] <Laurenceb> ok maybe it is pretty cool
[13:04] <N900evil> awesome.
[13:04] <Laurenceb> I'll email them and ask
[13:05] <Laurenceb> the full datasheet is "by request"
[13:05] <N900evil> shows what bulk customers do for prices
[13:05] <Laurenceb> bbl
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[13:19] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[14:26] <juxta> my chinese dual band handheld arrived today, woo
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[15:20] <russss> juxta: which model?
[15:20] <juxta> I got the wouxun kg-uvd1p
[15:22] <juxta> seems pretty decent for the price russss, have been having a play with it tonight
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[15:23] <russss> cool
[15:23] <russss> these cheap chinese radios crack me up
[15:24] <juxta> yeah its a bit of a laugh
[15:24] <juxta> some interesting features
[15:24] <juxta> ie torch, stopwatch & FM (music) radio
[15:25] <juxta> oh, and it speaks if you want it to :)
[15:27] <russss> yeah mine speak too
[15:28] <russss> in an amusing chinese accent
[15:29] <juxta> same model russss?
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[15:30] <russss> nah I have the Puxing somethingorother
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[15:31] <ms7821> px777?
[15:32] <russss> that one
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[15:33] Nick change: b3cft_ -> b3cft
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[16:46] Action: Laurenceb is thinking super micro autopilot
[16:47] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/XY2ZV.png
[16:48] <Laurenceb> all the sensors fit in 15x20mm
[16:49] <Laurenceb> same size as a FSDA03 - it could fit on the back
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[17:30] <earthshine> afternoon
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[17:34] <DanielRichman> ping jonsowman
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[17:44] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: hiya
[17:44] <jonsowman> hows things?
[17:44] <DanielRichman> good, good.
[17:44] <DanielRichman> jonsowman, seems all of the radiometrix rx units feature a "data slicer"; will you be using it?
[17:44] <DanielRichman> to do your RX?
[17:45] <jonsowman> we havent yet experimented with the best way of getting data to the balloon
[17:45] <jonsowman> the data slicer is one way of doing it
[17:46] <jonsowman> Matt_soton is the person to talk to about this
[17:46] <DanielRichman> hmm; AF output is also provided.... seems like a job for a CRO
[17:46] <jonsowman> ping Matt_soton
[17:47] <jonsowman> sure i wrote this down somewhere, 2 secs
[17:47] <DanielRichman> Physics has some masssive great CROs and I believe CCF signals have one. When Alex manages to blag one off radiometrix for whatever price I'll hook it up and have a look
[17:48] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: we're using OOK to talk to the balloon
[17:48] <jonsowman> have a look at this
[17:48] <jonsowman> http://balloon.hexoc.com/media/apextech.pdf
[17:48] <DanielRichman> jonsowman, I was thinking that rtty might be easier
[17:48] <jonsowman> page 5, titled "in modem"
[17:48] <DanielRichman> OK, thank you
[17:49] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: the problem with RTTY is that it requires tones
[17:49] <jonsowman> you'd need to demodulate those tones on the balloon
[17:49] <jonsowman> certainly doable, maybe with PLL tone decoders
[17:49] <DanielRichman> or that data slicer :P
[17:49] <DanielRichman> or a massive ADC
[17:50] <DanielRichman> I'll use something
[17:51] <jonsowman> have you read the radiometrix appnotes?
[17:52] <DanielRichman> skim read, yes
[17:52] <jonsowman> very useful
[17:53] <jonsowman> the data slicer can lose sync with the incoming signal for low baud rates
[17:53] <jonsowman> especially if you transmit a long string of 1s or 0s
[17:53] <jonsowman> is the signal isn't changing, so it can lose track
[17:54] <jonsowman> so if you go for low-baud FSK or something, some kind of bit-balancing is probably wise
[17:55] <DanielRichman> hmm; perhaps a better idea to use an ADC and write something a bit smarter on the atmega
[17:55] <jonsowman> something like a biphase or bipolar encoder was something we considered very carefully
[17:55] <jonsowman> anyway dinnertime, be back in a bit
[17:55] <jonsowman> you might find other bits in that tech guide helpful :)
[17:56] <DanielRichman> yes, it's surprisingly comprehensive, did you have to produce a report on your project for someone?
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[18:39] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: hi
[18:40] <DanielRichman> jonsowman, hi
[18:40] <DanielRichman> jonsowman, that Tech document is very comprehensive; why did you produce it?
[18:41] <jonsowman> even though the three main team members have left Sutton Grammar the project is still being run from there
[18:41] <jonsowman> we're getting the younger kids involved and doing things for it
[18:42] <jonsowman> so that guide was made 1) for us to keep track of what we're doing and 2) for all the other students to read and understand the payload
[18:43] <DanielRichman> ahh, I see, it's great
[18:44] <jonsowman> hopefully its useful for other people too
[18:44] <DanielRichman> definitely
[18:46] <jonsowman> another trick for uplink that i know CUSF have used (though it's hacky) is to integrate the RSSI over a bit period and feed it through a discriminator
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[18:55] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: http://www.radiometrix.co.uk/products/control44.htm
[18:55] <jonsowman> one of those would be interesting to try
[18:56] <jonsowman> gets over the bit balancing issues
[18:56] <jonsowman> differential manchester line coding is very good at keeping data slicers in sync
[18:58] <DanielRichman> my atmega will keep it still juust fine, I hope, but I will experiment
[18:59] <jonsowman> is the data slicer output AC coupled do you know?
[19:00] <DanielRichman> no, I don't, sorry
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[19:03] <jonsowman> grr netsplits
[19:04] <jcoxon> yay android on the iphone
[19:04] <jcoxon> haha apple - take that
[19:04] <edmoore> yay apple buys arm
[19:04] <edmoore> haha entire mobile industry - take that
[19:04] <jonsowman> edmoore: yeh i saw that
[19:05] <jcoxon> unfortuantely i've really gone off apple - even if i do love their laptops
[19:05] <jonsowman> we found the lab :) it's quite nice
[19:05] <jonsowman> jcoxon: whys that?
[19:06] <edmoore> they have gone on a bit of a power grab
[19:06] <jcoxon> they've become a bit powerful and willing to stomp on people
[19:06] <edmoore> it'll help their profits, I'm sure, but it's upsetting techy people
[19:06] <jcoxon> all this closed app stores etc
[19:06] <edmoore> not that I mind flash dying a horrible death
[19:07] <jcoxon> all a bit controlling
[19:07] <DanielRichman> adobe are certainly kicking and screaming
[19:07] <edmoore> I think next laptop will be a thinpad x201 for me, assuming I get something new in the next 6 months
[19:07] <sbasuita> they haven't bought arm yet
[19:07] <DanielRichman> I love how apple neutered their cross compiler close to its launch
[19:07] <edmoore> no indeed, it's just rumour
[19:07] <SpeedEvil> I hate lack of 4:3 laptops
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[19:08] <jcoxon> i want a hacked ipad
[19:08] <SpeedEvil> also - if apple buy arm - any consequence is some years out
[19:08] <jcoxon> just want hte hardware, not the silly OS
[19:08] <SpeedEvil> As any current makers of chips will have licenses
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[19:09] <sbasuita> jcoxon: ipad is jailbroken
[19:09] <jcoxon> sbasuita, exactly
[19:09] <sbasuita> jcoxon: so you're going to buy one?
[19:09] <jcoxon> no no
[19:09] <jcoxon> far better things to purchase
[19:09] <SpeedEvil> at half the price - it's an attractive bit of hw
[19:09] <edmoore> you get a free one if you go for an interview at redgate
[19:09] <SpeedEvil> maybe less
[19:10] <edmoore> a current redgate employee friend has offered such a thing to me. but i'd feel bad as it really wouldn't be a realistic interview
[19:10] <SpeedEvil> Drop one from 30km
[19:10] <SpeedEvil> profit (from ads also running on the page)
[19:11] <edmoore> jcoxon: I had a play with the thinkpad x201 recently. it really is nice. thinkpads have always tempted me away from apple and now that I've abandoned textmate anyway, I see no reason not to abandon apple next time.
[19:12] <SpeedEvil> Love my 'new' thinkpad.
[19:12] <SpeedEvil> (x60s)
[19:13] <edmoore> it's the keyboards that do them for me
[19:13] <jcoxon> oh i don't like thinkpads
[19:13] <jcoxon> never have
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[19:13] <jcoxon> that said i haven't seen the new ones
[19:13] <jonsowman> the one thing that annoys me about snow leopard is not having a 256 colour terminal
[19:13] <jonsowman> makes using vim a bit rubbish
[19:14] <jcoxon> i really don't know what i'd do if my macbook died
[19:14] <jonsowman> edmoore: abandoned textmate?
[19:14] <edmoore> i used to use it
[19:14] <jonsowman> why not anymore?
[19:15] <edmoore> because vim is better
[19:15] <edmoore> in every single way
[19:15] <jonsowman> yeh vim is good
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[19:17] <jcoxon> if only we could extend the East Anglia a bit into the north sea - then our balloons would splash down
[19:18] <edmoore> jonsowman: http://structurallysoundtreehouse.com/getting-256-colors-on-terminalapp-on-snow-leo
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[19:18] <jcoxon> oh dear about the PBH-11 launch
[19:19] <jcoxon> didn't go very far
[19:19] <edmoore> what's happened?
[19:19] <jcoxon> came down after a few hours
[19:19] <jcoxon> landed in the states
[19:19] <jcoxon> even after they dumped ballast
[19:19] <jonsowman> edmoore: its not real 256, i've tried it
[19:19] <jcoxon> but they did manage interballoon comms
[19:19] <jonsowman> other alternative is iTerm but I really don't like it
[19:23] <edmoore> i like iterm because it can go fullscreen
[19:23] <edmoore> i would kill a child if it meant terminal.app could do fullscreen
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[20:10] <DanielRichman> as far as 434.075 & the other bands that we can use whilst airborne... these are "license exempt", no, but feature in the amateur bandplans: so is the deal that we can either choose to transmit using HAM eqipment, not having to specify our callsign etc but within the license exempt powers - OR - we can transmit with ham equipment at greater power if we specify our callsign and obey other rules? or are specially certified modules
[20:10] <DanielRichman>  only allowed to TX in those bands without a callsign etc?
[20:11] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, but the band plan applies to groundbased radio operation
[20:12] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, so if I'm on the ground, say, and have a NTX2 and an 817 to hand
[20:12] <DanielRichman> would someone without an amateur license be allowed to use the 817 to transmit 10mW on 434.075?
[20:13] <jcoxon> my understanding is that it needs to be a certified licence exempt module
[20:13] <jcoxon> i doubt yaesu have bothered to get that licence for their radio
[20:13] <DanielRichman> Fair enough.
[20:14] <jcoxon> hence why teh ccc120x0dwdw setup is debatably legal
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[20:14] <jcoxon> i couldn't remember the exact name of the chipset
[20:14] <DanielRichman> so the NTX2 can transmit whatever it likes on that band; any HAM can transmit up to their power limit aslong as they specify their callsign and that they're talking to a remote they own
[20:14] <DanielRichman> I didn't follow/see that discussion
[20:15] <DanielRichman> It's a more powerful unit, right?
[20:15] <DanielRichman> a nice all in one... what's illegal about it?
[20:15] <jcoxon> well its just a chipeset
[20:15] <jcoxon> rather than a radio module
[20:15] <DanielRichman> is it license-exempt certified? why is its legality fuzzy rather than defined
[20:16] <jcoxon> well this is where the whole thing is fuzzy
[20:16] <jcoxon> so radiometrix have got the NTX2 'module' certified
[20:17] <jcoxon> but the ccc12xcww chipset is just a chip - it doesn't have the extra bits included
[20:17] <DanielRichman> so the whole thing from power regulator to antenna output is certified
[20:17] <jcoxon> sort of
[20:17] <DanielRichman> what do you need to add to the ccc to make it work?
[20:17] <jcoxon> but of course we add on what ever antenna we want
[20:17] <jcoxon> so in some ways even the ntx2 isn't certified
[20:17] <DanielRichman> You need to add more to the ccc than just the antenna?
[20:18] <jcoxon> i think so
[20:18] <jcoxon> i haven't researched it completely
[20:18] <DanielRichman> well the NTX2 has features that keep your power down and it clips you to make absolutely sure you're inside the band you ought to be
[20:18] <DanielRichman> so maybe just adding the antenna is OK
[20:19] <jcoxon> i think thats the current thought
[20:19] <jcoxon> they've done as much as they can
[20:19] <DanielRichman> exactly, and to be fair, unless you want to sell a black impenetrable box with powersupply and everything included... there has to be a line drawn somewhere
[20:20] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:21] <jcoxon> http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/cc1111f32.html
[20:23] <DanielRichman> has anyone asked ofcom?
[20:23] <chembrow> where's the best place to source an NTX2 from?
[20:23] <jcoxon> radiometrix will sell direct for ~13 pounds
[20:23] <jcoxon> just call them up
[20:24] <jcoxon> or farnell but they sell for much more
[20:24] <chembrow> thanks jcoxon. wasn't sure if there was a better source than them directly. I know some suppliers are less than happy about selling single units
[20:26] <jcoxon> yeah its odd calling them up for just 1
[20:27] <jcoxon> though do say its for HAB
[20:27] <jcoxon> as if they see us as a potential 'big' market perhaps they'll make another freq for us :-)
[20:27] Action: jcoxon wants another freq ntx2 such as 434.100 or something
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[20:32] <jcoxon> hi cuone
[20:32] <cuone> Hi jcoxon
[20:33] <chembrow> jcoxon why another frequency? would you be looking for 3 links?
[20:34] <jcoxon> the 434.650 isn't great as its a repeater input in teh UK
[20:34] <jcoxon> and there has been reports of interference
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[20:35] <chembrow> so the 434.075 is better to use then?
[20:35] <jcoxon> yes
[20:35] <jcoxon> thats whats recommended
[20:36] <chembrow> thanks. might give them a call tomorrow. not that I've got a receiver yet, but hopefully mr. postman will bring me a present soon#
[20:42] <jcoxon> :-)
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[20:50] <Laurenceb> hi all
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> hi
[21:02] <Laurenceb>  debate is only on sky :-/
[21:02] <Laurenceb> its on R4 as well
[21:02] <Laurenceb> guess thats pretty easy to receive
[21:03] Action: Laurenceb gets out an opamp
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> debate?
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> Oh - that
[21:03] Action: SpeedEvil is going pirate party - if tehre is a local representative.
[21:04] <Laurenceb> heh
[21:04] <Laurenceb> no proper libertarian party in this country :(
[21:06] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/JqGPz.png <- lots of free space XD
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> neat
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[21:12] <Laurenceb> I'm not sure how practical my speed controller idea is - turns out my previous mag interference calculation was out by an order of magnitude
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[21:13] <Laurenceb> looks like you can get it down to <1 degree if you're very careful to avoid current loops
[21:14] <Laurenceb> thing is something like this creates massive current loops http://www.servohut.com/mmm20esc.jpg
[21:19] <SpeedEvil> http://www.pirateparty.org.uk/party/donate/
[21:19] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: well - if you've got motors - you can't neglect the direct fild from the magnets
[21:22] <Laurenceb> yeah but it seems to actually be quite a weak effect
[21:22] <Laurenceb> most motors its quite well sheilded and the leakage is a high order effect - drops off with R^4 or higher
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> r^n is your friend
[21:27] <Laurenceb> I'm thinking an SMD Aluminium electrolitic for the ESC cap
[21:29] <Laurenceb> pirate party looks pretty sensible
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[22:03] <jcoxon> dum dee dum dum dum
[22:05] <[STAR]Atanyi|MnG> indeed
[22:05] <[STAR]Atanyi|MnG> hmm
[22:05] Nick change: [STAR]Atanyi|MnG -> Upu
[22:05] <Upu> odd my IRC seems to have thrown a wobbler
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[22:05] <Upu> just pretend you didnt' see that
[22:05] <jcoxon> hehe
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[22:42] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[22:52] <guysoft42> hi all, question - is it possible to build high altitude kits? I thought it might be a cool project, but it seems the only web information is on companies trying to make electricity from this
[22:53] <Lunar_Lander> hi guysoft42
[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> could you please elaborate on that?
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[22:55] <jcoxon> guysoft42, where are you based?
[22:55] <guysoft42> jcoxon, Israel
[22:55] <guysoft42> Lunar_Lander, well i like doing projects.. and i was thinking about one evolving strapping a camera on something that goes high up. near space is an option but i have a lot of problems doing it in Israel
[22:55] <jcoxon> here in the UK we have rules about the altitudes of kites
[22:56] <Lunar_Lander> jcoxon, I think he just means a balloon
[22:56] <guysoft42> jcoxon, ... assuming i get the approval from a bureaucratic entity here
[22:56] <Lunar_Lander> a balloon "kit"
[22:57] <guysoft42> Lunar_Lander, well anything on a string.. a balloon means it will have a fuel, that might make it more complex
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[22:57] <Lunar_Lander> fuel=helium?
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[22:58] <guysoft42> Lunar_Lander, well helium means a high altitude balloon that goes up until it pops.. i am not sure i can attach that to a string. does it have enough lift?
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> it should have
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> so you want to have a tethered balloon
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[23:19] <guysoft42> um, yes
[23:19] <guysoft42> gah, missed him
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[23:34] <earthshine> hey
[23:34] <earthshine> Did a talk tonight at my astronomy club about HAB
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[00:00] --- Fri Apr 23 2010